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Jersey Yankee
01-24-06, 08:52 PM
who would they have traded to Cleveland? I'm asking folks here to let me know who they'd have been cool with.

There's obviously an ongoing discussion of this in ATM re the Red Sox, but I'm wondering how Yankee fans feel about this had our own farm guys been asked for.

Your thoughts are appreciated. :)

BJG
01-24-06, 08:56 PM
It seems rather unlikely that such a deal would even be possible.

Jersey Yankee
01-24-06, 08:58 PM
It seems rather unlikely that such a deal would even be possible.
Why's that?

Frank the Tank
01-24-06, 09:03 PM
Why's that?

I would assume that given the past history of Yankee trades vs. Red Sox trades, the Yanks would have never "had enough" to pull off this deal.

keithf1
01-24-06, 09:19 PM
Everyone is so zero'ed in on getting Cano or Wang from us. If they aren't in the deal, we weren't getting a player of that calibur in my opinion.

BJG
01-24-06, 09:23 PM
Why's that?

Because the Yankees don't have Andy Marte or anything resembling Andy Marte to trade. You're talking about a consensus top 10 prospect who plays a position of need for the Indians.

JeffWeaverFan
01-24-06, 09:25 PM
Why's that?
Because the Indians really wanted a right handed power bat that is ready to play now and we don't have that to offer. Andy Marte is one of the best prospects in all of baseball, and although Hughes, our best prospect, has a ton of potential to be an ace in this league, he's still a few years off.

Plus, we didn't have a guy like Mota to trade and we are not even allowed to trade Cox if we wanted to.

It just doesn't sound like we have what the Indians were looking for.

NewEraYanks2527
01-24-06, 09:42 PM
The steps of the trade were as follows, Renteria was traded to Atlanta for a top third base prospect in Marte who is then going to be spun to Cleveland for Coco Crisp with relief pitchers and other prospects thrown in along the way. The Yankees do not have a top prospect they are really willing to part with, nor a starting SS to land the 3B prospect that has just about acquired Crisp. Really if the Yanks wanted Coco, I'm sure Cano or Wang could have gotten it done but would you really want to trade either of those guys for Crisp?

BJG
01-24-06, 09:52 PM
Really if the Yanks wanted Coco, I'm sure Cano or Wang could have gotten it done but would you really want to trade either of those guys for Crisp?

I doubt it. The Indians seem quite happy with Belliard for another year. Marte has a much higher ceiling than Cano. Wang doesn't fill the same need. This is a matter of the Indians getting the exact player the need for what they seem to see as their biggest organizational hole.

Johnny O
01-24-06, 10:01 PM
Because the Indians really wanted a right handed power bat that is ready to play now and we don't have that to offer. Andy Marte is one of the best prospects in all of baseball, and although Hughes, our best prospect, has a ton of potential to be an ace in this league, he's still a few years off.

Plus, we didn't have a guy like Mota to trade and we are not even allowed to trade Cox if we wanted to.

It just doesn't sound like we have what the Indians were looking for.

Agreed. 3B is a very difficult position to fill, nevermind to fill it with a potential impact bat. Cleveland has Belliard at the keystone and the thus far disappointing Brandon Phillips in AAA, so Cano doesn't fill a need for them. Wang? The Indians have some quality pitching prospects and the rotation is pretty much set.

Great deals by Cleveland, assuming nothing gets hung up.

NewEraYanks2527
01-24-06, 10:11 PM
I doubt it. The Indians seem quite happy with Belliard for another year. Marte has a much higher ceiling than Cano. Wang doesn't fill the same need. This is a matter of the Indians getting the exact player the need for what they seem to see as their biggest organizational hole.
Are you kidding me? You think there is a team out there that would have helped the Yankees fill their CF needs without getting at least Cano and Wang in the process? Wang does fill a need as well and that is what every team needs; starting pitching. Besides who else is to say the Indians keep Cano or Wang once acquired, they may work them into another deal to get "the exact player they need".

BJG
01-24-06, 10:12 PM
Are you kidding me? You think there is a team out there that would have helped the Yankees fill their CF needs without getting at least Cano and Wang in the process? Wang does fill a need as well and that is what every team needs; starting pitching. Besides who else is to say the Indians keep Cano or Wang once acquired, they may work them into another deal to get "the exact player they need".

What I'm saying is that the Indians would have held onto Crisp rather than dealing him for players they didn't really need/want. In addition, while I understand that everyone asked for Wang, that doesn't mean he has as much value as any number of other pitchers on the market. The guy has serious shoulder issues. If the goal is simply to start acquiring players simply to end up with Marte, then there are simply better/more appropriate players out there than Cano and Wang.

JeffWeaverFan
01-24-06, 10:17 PM
Are you kidding me? You think there is a team out there that would have helped the Yankees fill their CF needs without getting at least Cano and Wang in the process? Wang does fill a need as well and that is what every team needs; starting pitching. Besides who else is to say the Indians keep Cano or Wang once acquired, they may work them into another deal to get "the exact player they need".
But neither Cano or Wang are as good as Marte. The point is, if the Sox were offering a package with Marte being the centerpiece, we couldn't have matched it.

NewEraYanks2527
01-24-06, 10:17 PM
What I'm saying is that the Indians would have held onto Crisp rather than dealing him for players they didn't really need/want. The context I was replying to was what would it have taken to get Crisp and the asking price would have started at Cano and Wang for the Yankees, whether or not the Indians would have done it or had to bring another team in to fill a need at third if they wanted is another discussion. But in answering the thread starters question, what it would have taken from the Yankees to land Crisp was at the least Cano or Wang. I see what you are saying but what I was trying to do was answer the given question of what it would have taken to land Crisp.

NewEraYanks2527
01-24-06, 10:19 PM
But neither Cano or Wang are as good as Marte.
So getting an unproven third base prospect is better than acquiring two young proven players in their sophmore year. That doesn't make any sense, Cano at this point IS better than Marte based solely on the fact that he has proven he can produce at the big league level, lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

BJG
01-24-06, 10:24 PM
So getting an unproven third base prospect is better than acquiring two young proven players in their sophmore year. That doesn't make any sense, Cano at this point IS better than Marte based solely on the fact that he has proven he can produce at the big league level, lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

The Indians clearly don't believe that, because Crisp is a better major leaguer than Cano.

TEPLimey
01-24-06, 10:29 PM
I'm not complaining. The Red Sox essentially traded Rentaria, prospects, and $11M for Coco Crisp. At that price, I am just as happy with Damon, Cano/Wang, and the 1-2 other good prospects we would have traded.

NewEraYanks2527
01-24-06, 11:02 PM
The Indians clearly don't believe that, because Crisp is a better major leaguer than Cano. I agree but I was referring to Marte Vs. Cano, but hey I don't feel like discussing what will never be.

DontHateOnNumber2
01-24-06, 11:03 PM
Really if the Yanks wanted Coco, I'm sure Cano or Wang could have gotten it done but would you really want to trade either of those guys for Crisp?

No way.

Sam18
01-24-06, 11:09 PM
We would be a much better team. But like others have said, we got nothin to trade.

clarko
01-24-06, 11:21 PM
Sox have the prospects, nailed Beckett and prob Crisp. They shake and bake, we buy. We probably came out ahead in the short term, but i enjoy watching creative trades. I will also enjoy watching our offense this year!
k

NewEraYanks2527
01-24-06, 11:22 PM
That is one kick ass avatar Sam.

Mr. Mxylsplk
01-24-06, 11:26 PM
That doesn't make any sense, Cano at this point IS better than Marte based solely on the fact that he has proven he can produce at the big league level, lets not get ahead of ourselves here.
Cano might be more ready to contribute in 2006 than Marte, but you're really kidding yourself if you think he's more highly valued than Marte. Unproven or not, Marte is extremely well though of, and more desired by teams than Cano.

NewEraYanks2527
01-24-06, 11:37 PM
Cano might be more ready to contribute in 2006 than Marte, but you're really kidding yourself if you think he's more highly valued than Marte. Unproven or not, Marte is extremely well though of, and more desired by teams than Cano. Listen the thing is there are countless prospect that are highly thought of that get to the bigs and simply don't live up to expectations, look at our buddy Carl for example. A prospect is a prospect until they set foot on the field and contribute. Marte might have some great projections but until any prospect performs on the big league level that player is just just a prospect and that to me is a level below an actual big league player, let alone one that has put up the numbers like Cano when many scouts that make these projections thought he was not even major league ready.

DontHateOnNumber2
01-24-06, 11:42 PM
If they traded Marte and Mota for Coco, then the Yankees would've had to trade something like Cano and Small or some other reliever. It seems like they wanted to fill up the important position, but also get some bullpen strength which I don't blame Cleveland for. At one point the Yanks were doing the same.

BJG
01-24-06, 11:44 PM
Again though newera, the Indians have a major leaguer who is even more 'proven' then Cano. They are willing to trade him for an 'unproven' prospect. Clearly, the team we are dealing with here completely disagrees with your assessment of Marte's value and, on top of that, has no reason to trade their better major leaguer for a lesser one. Your opinion on the relative value here really doesn't mean anything. All that counts is what the Indians value.

NewEraYanks2527
01-24-06, 11:48 PM
Dude, for the last time, I am answering this question

who would they have traded to Cleveland?
in regards to Crisp. The value of Cano is irrelevant, I was simply stating what it would have taken to acquire Crisp. We are debating a moot point in the Crisp's value vs. Cano's value Vs. Marte's value. If the Yankees wanted to acquire Coco Crisp to fill their CF void you can not tell me the asking price would not have started with Wang or Cano if they were ever going to make a deal. The Yankees were in a disadvantage to begin with and have nothing else to offer. I don't really care about the projections of Marte or how much Cleveland values him, the point was to answer the question of what it probably would have taken to land Crisp to play CF when we did not have Damon. Read what I am responding too.

monty
01-24-06, 11:49 PM
If given a choice would you, as a yankee fan want Johnny Damon and his age and salary, or Coco at this point?

I think most will go with the latter..

BJG
01-24-06, 11:52 PM
Dude, for the last time, I am answering this question

in regards to Crisp. The value of Cano is irrelevant, I was simply stating what it would have taken to acquire Crisp. We are debating a moot point in the Crisp's value vs. Cano's value Vs. Marte's value. If the Yankees wanted to acquire Coco Crisp to fill their CF void you can not tell me the asking price would not have started with Wang or Cano if they were ever going to make a deal. The Yankees were in a disadvantage to begin with and have nothing else to offer. I don't really care about the projections of Marte or how much Cleveland values him, the point was to answer the question of what it probably would have taken to land Crisp to play CF when we did not have Damon. Read what I am responding too.

The problem is that your starting point likely isn't good enough. In this context, the relative value of the players does mean something. If the Indians are only willing to move Crisp for their perceived value of Marte, then you need to match that perceived value in order to get a deal done, not fall short of it. So, what do the Yankees have to offer that is at least the value, in the Indian's eyes, as Marte?

NewEraYanks2527
01-24-06, 11:59 PM
The problem is that your starting point likely isn't good enough. In this context, the relative value of the players does mean something. If the Indians are only willing to move Crisp for their perceived value of Marte, then you need to match that perceived value in order to get a deal done, not fall short of it. So, what do the Yankees have to offer that is at least the value, in the Indian's eyes, as Marte?
You are correct, the starting point probably is not good enough but the bottom line I was trying to put across was that Crisp at the very least would cost a package of Wang and Cano plus others due to the poor position the Yankees were in at the time and currently in recent lights of what they were willing to deal Crisp for. I agree with you 100% that Cano alone will not acquire Crisp but I do believe to answer the question of what would get the Yanks Crisp essentially started with Cano and worked its way up from there.

27IsNext
01-25-06, 12:48 AM
(To finish your sentence...)

...we would no longer have Cano, Wang, Hughes, and Duncan. :P

Sam18
01-25-06, 01:05 AM
If given a choice would you, as a yankee fan want Johnny Damon and his age and salary, or Coco at this point?

I think most will go with the latter..

Obviously you go with Coco but he would've cost A LOT in terms of prospects.

Sam18
01-25-06, 01:08 AM
That is one kick ass avatar Sam.

Thanks Steve.

NewEraYanks2527
01-25-06, 10:32 AM
Thanks Steve.
You're welcome.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-25-06, 10:38 AM
The Yankees have a good farm, but everyone except for Duncan is in the lower levels. While they have some kickass upsides the Indians want MLB ready talent and all the guys we have are quite a few years off.

TheInfallibleOne
01-25-06, 10:43 AM
ok but some of us are forgetting that even though we were in a really tight spot with no CFer, the Sox are in that same spot now. And they only have about a month or so to get something done if they want their rosters set. That puts Cleveland or anyone else with a decent CFer in the position to ask Lucchino and Epstein to bend over spread'em. A while back Scott Boras was asking the same of both Boston and New York. We just made a wise choice and got screwed less than we would have. Does anybody really think Boston wants to give up all these great prospects to fill this hole? They have no choice. IMO Cleveland should raise its asking price even further and try to pry Papelbon away. Its not like Boston has any other alternatives they are comfortable with or can pull off at this point.

BeantownYankee
01-25-06, 10:51 AM
If given a choice would you, as a yankee fan want Johnny Damon and his age and salary, or Coco at this point?

I think most will go with the latter..

I would go with Damon. Proven at the championship level on a team with championship quality veterans. This team is poised to win this year, not in a rebuilding stage. Crisp is fast
but is not a stud outfielded. His arm is weak like Damons. And as mentioned. The team is set to win the next couple of years and we have the prospects intact to fill in nicely in a couple of years.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-25-06, 10:53 AM
ok but some of us are forgetting that even though we were in a really tight spot with no CFer, the Sox are in that same spot now. And they only have about a month or so to get something done if they want their rosters set. That puts Cleveland or anyone else with a decent CFer in the position to ask Lucchino and Epstein to bend over spread'em. A while back Scott Boras was asking the same of both Boston and New York. We just made a wise choice and got screwed less than we would have. Does anybody really think Boston wants to give up all these great prospects to fill this hole? They have no choice. IMO Cleveland should raise its asking price even further and try to pry Papelbon away. Its not like Boston has any other alternatives they are comfortable with or can pull off at this point.

Screw Papelbon, they should got for Lester and Marte.

mjdlight
01-25-06, 10:55 AM
IMO Cleveland should raise its asking price even further and try to pry Papelbon away. Its not like Boston has any other alternatives they are comfortable with or can pull off at this point.

Exactly. And I have faith in Shapiro. He's a solid GM, and will get fair value from the RS (or maybe even a bit more) for Crisp.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-25-06, 10:57 AM
If given a choice would you, as a yankee fan want Johnny Damon and his age and salary, or Coco at this point?

I think most will go with the latter..

Damon is 32, he isnt old for a baseball player and has a good history with injuries. Both players are pretty much the same good range bad arms. Pretty much the same OPS. Damon has a higher OBP and steals more while Crisp has a higher slugging. Damon fits the Yankees needs more than Crisp does. Id rather get Damon for just money than get Crisp for top prospects. Damon for money>Crisp for Marte(Hughes and Duncan if your the Yankees)

BillBuckner
01-25-06, 10:58 AM
Boston gave up some good yound players. Any negotiations would have had to include names like Duncan, Wang, Hughes, etc.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-25-06, 10:58 AM
I would go with Damon. Proven at the championship level on a team with championship quality veterans. This team is poised to win this year, not in a rebuilding stage. Crisp is fast
but is not a stud outfielded. His arm is weak like Damons. And as mentioned. The team is set to win the next couple of years and we have the prospects intact to fill in nicely in a couple of years.

Yup Cj Henry or Austin Jackson should be ready by the end of Damons contract.

BJG
01-25-06, 11:16 AM
Damon is 32, he isnt old for a baseball player and has a good history with injuries. Both players are pretty much the same good range bad arms. Pretty much the same OPS. Damon has a higher OBP and steals more while Crisp has a higher slugging. Damon fits the Yankees needs more than Crisp does. Id rather get Damon for just money than get Crisp for top prospects. Damon for money>Crisp for Marte(Hughes and Duncan if your the Yankees)

Removing cost from the equation, Damon isn't old, but Crisp is young, which means he likely has his peak in front of him. If they are about the same player now, over the next 4 years, it is Crisp who is likely to be better.

BJG
01-25-06, 11:19 AM
Yup Cj Henry or Austin Jackson should be ready by the end of Damons contract.

The chance that either is ever a regular major league player at this point is rather slim. Even if that's true, things would have to go perfectly for them to be ready in 2010. Lets wait at least until they have success at some level of full season ball.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-25-06, 11:21 AM
The chance that either is ever a regular major league player at this point is rather slim. Even if that's true, things would have to go perfectly for them to be ready in 2010. Lets wait at least until they have success at some level of full season ball.

Well between Melky, Gardner, Tabata, Henry, Jackson and Battle, I am sure at least one will become something.

goin for 27
01-25-06, 11:23 AM
If given a choice would you, as a yankee fan want Johnny Damon and his age and salary, or Coco at this point?

I think most will go with the latter..

Of course, Crisp. Much younger, with potential to improve, while Damon will only decline. Probably pretty similar for 2006. Crisp much cheaper, etc.

It is moot though. As others have stated, the Yanks have nothing to trade for Crisp.

Even if they do toss Cano/Wang, that is not as big a need as 3B for the Indians. Plus, the Yanks then have a hole at 2B. Easier to fill than CF for sure, but the fit just is not there.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-25-06, 11:26 AM
Removing cost from the equation, Damon isn't old, but Crisp is young, which means he likely has his peak in front of him. If they are about the same player now, over the next 4 years, it is Crisp who is likely to be better.

Yup but you also have to look at the cost and the need. Marte and Damon for just money and renteria would be better than Crisp for Marte and Mota. The Yankees dont have a Marte and didnt trade any prospects while upgrading centerfield considerably both on offense and defense. Besides what the Red Sox do shouldnt affect the Yankees. The Yankees should worry about the Yankees, not the Red Sox. Damon was the best player they could get without gutting the farm which is just starting to gain some respect again. They played the Damon negotiations perfectly at that.

BJG
01-25-06, 11:30 AM
Well between Melky, Gardner, Tabata, Henry, Jackson and Battle, I am sure at least one will become something.

By 2010? The attrition rate for prospects is just very high, and guys like Gardner or Battle don't necessarily project as starters anyway, guys like Melky project at a corner (without enough bat), etc. I'll be encouraged if they have success in A and I'll pencil them in after AA. Even with the young kids, I think you are assumming a lot for them to not grow out of up the middle positions.

BJG
01-25-06, 11:32 AM
Yup but you also have to look at the cost and the need. Marte and Damon for just money and renteria would be better than Crisp for Marte and Mota. The Yankees dont have a Marte and didnt trade any prospects while upgrading centerfield considerably both on offense and defense. Besides what the Red Sox do shouldnt affect the Yankees. The Yankees should worry about the Yankees, not the Red Sox. Damon was the best player they could get without gutting the farm which is just starting to gain some respect again. They played the Damon negotiations perfectly at that.

I understand that. In response to the question of who is a better player for the next 4 years, I'm just saying that if both were free agents asking for exactly the same money, I'd have gone with Crisp.

jimmyclark
01-25-06, 01:34 PM
If given a choice would you, as a yankee fan want Johnny Damon and his age and salary, or Coco at this point?

I think most will go with the latter..

It is not a choice between Damon and Crisp. It is a choice between Damon/Cano vs Crisp/Cairo. I am assuming Cleveland would take Cano for Crisp or something similiar..a good young player or a top prospect ready to play (which we don't have). I go with Damon/Cano.
Now if both Damon and Crisp were free agents I might go with Crisp. But Crisp wasn't. It is a good idea to go with younger players but we should always heed the words of Casey Stengel when he said "We've got this 20 year catcher named Greg Goossen who in ten years has a chance to be 30".

Cold Shad
01-25-06, 01:49 PM
Melky Duncan and Wang would have done it.

mjdlight
01-25-06, 02:10 PM
Melky Duncan and Wang would have done it.

Too much for the Yankees to surrender given the state of our farm in the upper levels. Damon was the right move.

Yanksule
01-25-06, 02:44 PM
Getting Damon helps the Yanks, hurts the Sox, and only costs money.


Damon is also a big market player-he's going to rock in Yankee Stadium.

No No CoCo!:P

gold23
01-25-06, 03:04 PM
It is not a choice between Damon and Crisp. It is a choice between Damon/Cano vs Crisp/Cairo. I am assuming Cleveland would take Cano for Crisp or something similiar..a good young player or a top prospect ready to play (which we don't have). I go with Damon/Cano.
Now if both Damon and Crisp were free agents I might go with Crisp. But Crisp wasn't. It is a good idea to go with younger players but we should always heed the words of Casey Stengel when he said "We've got this 20 year catcher named Greg Goossen who in ten years has a chance to be 30".


Cleveland wouldn't do Cano for Crisp, even if the Yanks wanted to. Cano doesn't help the Indians much- they have a pretty decent 2B in Belliard already.

gold23
01-25-06, 03:11 PM
I understand that. In response to the question of who is a better player for the next 4 years, I'm just saying that if both were free agents asking for exactly the same money, I'd have gone with Crisp.


I'd agree with that, but wouldn't necessarily if you made it three years. Right now, offensively, Damon is superior in almost all respects (admittedly pretty close in most categories). He is a more patient hitter with a clear edge in OBP, is a much more adept base stealer, and may be a slightly better hitter for average. Power is probably close, considering Damon's swing is not especially made for HR in Fenway.

Defensively, Crisp is superior and will likely widen the margin in the coming years.

I believe Damon is the better current player, but the margin is such that it should tighten shortly. Four years? Yeah, Crisp. But three and it would be close. Additionally, Crisp does not have the track record of Damon- it is conceivable that he would not fare well in a spotlight market, or simply regress from a few solid years.

yankswn23
01-25-06, 03:20 PM
nope I am not afraid to face coco crisp with the game on the line and runners are in scoring position, id be more afraid of damon in a red sox uniform, and the red sox would feel the same but lost out on damon so now they have to get rid of young talent just to get a decent center fielder.

4degrees
01-25-06, 04:46 PM
I'd agree with that, but wouldn't necessarily if you made it three years. Right now, offensively, Damon is superior in almost all respects (admittedly pretty close in most categories). He is a more patient hitter with a clear edge in OBP, is a much more adept base stealer, and may be a slightly better hitter for average. Power is probably close, considering Damon's swing is not especially made for HR in Fenway.

Defensively, Crisp is superior and will likely widen the margin in the coming years.

I believe Damon is the better current player, but the margin is such that it should tighten shortly. Four years? Yeah, Crisp. But three and it would be close. Additionally, Crisp does not have the track record of Damon- it is conceivable that he would not fare well in a spotlight market, or simply regress from a few solid years.

Also throw in the fact that Crisp has been playing 38 games a year against the Royals and Tigers and hasn't done well against the AL East. One advantage of signing an AL East player is that they've been through the wars.

I think Damon has about 2 years left in him, and then he'll slide. His aggressive play and nagging injuries will catch up to him.

diehardyankeefan
01-25-06, 04:55 PM
who would they have traded to Cleveland? I'm asking folks here to let me know who they'd have been cool with.

There's obviously an ongoing discussion of this in ATM re the Red Sox, but I'm wondering how Yankee fans feel about this had our own farm guys been asked for.

Your thoughts are appreciated. :)
I would think they want Chacon, Wang, Cano, or Crosby. I wouldn't give up 1 of those players, except maybe Bubba Crosby.

Cold Shad
01-25-06, 06:10 PM
Getting Damon helps the Yanks, hurts the Sox, and only costs money.


Damon is also a big market player-he's going to rock in Yankee Stadium.

No No CoCo!:P
Does the name Contreras ring a bell. The yankees decisions which Are motivated by trying to hurt the sox have a tendency to hurt the Yankees. THis signing Didn' t eliminate The possibility of the Red Sox signing A center fielder. It eliminated the possibility that the center fielder Would be Damon. I don't Think Cashman cares as much about thi issue as Steinbrenner.

BillBuckner
01-25-06, 06:48 PM
Does the name Contreras ring a bell. The yankees decisions which Are motivated by trying to hurt the sox have a tendency to hurt the Yankees. THis signing Didn' t eliminate The possibility of the Red Sox signing A center fielder. It eliminated the possibility that the center fielder Would be Damon. I don't Think Cashman cares as much about thi issue as Steinbrenner.
I dont think their motive was to hurt the Red Sox. Damon, and the contract that came with him, was simply the best option available this off season. Boston getting screwed was just the extra incentive.

MFern09
01-25-06, 07:40 PM
i can only imagine what the indians would have wanted for crisp from the yankees...everyone always asks for way too much from the yankees...besides, i like who the yanks got in damon while taking away from boston.

Cold Shad
01-25-06, 08:37 PM
I dont think their motive was to hurt the Red Sox. Damon, and the contract that came with him, was simply the best option available this off season. Boston getting screwed was just the extra incentive.
I was watching A YES replay of a Yankee Sox game 7-14. Ifound it interesting that the Yankee announcers were very complimentary to Damon. This fuels my suspicion that this signing was driven by Steinbrenner.

The Q Bomb
01-25-06, 08:39 PM
I dont think their motive was to hurt the Red Sox. Damon, and the contract that came with him, was simply the best option available this off season. Boston getting screwed was just the extra incentive.
Right and that's the way it should be. As another forumer pointed out - when The Yankees do a deal with the main objective apparently being to screw Boston it ususally ends up backfiring.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-25-06, 09:44 PM
Melky Duncan and Wang would have done it.

Melky I am ok with. I dont want to trade a young solid starter or our future firstbaseman for Crisp. It would be different if we had more prospects at he MLB ready level but we dont and we cant afford to give away the only good position prospect in AAA and a solid young pitcher. All of the Red Sox good prospects are at the top of their system so it was much easier for them to part with one.

27IsNext
01-25-06, 09:47 PM
Does the name Contreras ring a bell. The yankees decisions which Are motivated by trying to hurt the sox have a tendency to hurt the Yankees. THis signing Didn' t eliminate The possibility of the Red Sox signing A center fielder. It eliminated the possibility that the center fielder Would be Damon. I don't Think Cashman cares as much about thi issue as Steinbrenner.

Damon was the best option available, and only costed money, something we had enough of to give with Bernie, Kevin Brown, and all of those relievers coming off the books. The fact of the matter is that the Yankees would have gotten absolutely fleeced on ANY deal for a CFer, because it's a seller's market, especially considering our lack of in-house options.

Screwing over Boston (and more impressively, IMO, making Boras blink) was just icing on the cake.

Jersey Yankee
01-25-06, 11:26 PM
If given a choice would you, as a yankee fan want Johnny Damon and his age and salary, or Coco at this point?

I think most will go with the latter..
This is like the "Pedro vs Unit" thing, which was another thread I'd started. Though not quite the caliber, it's similar, in that one player is available only via trade, while the other is available only as a free agent.

If you're talking about two players, neither of whom were offered arbitration and are available as a free agent at the same time, I would likely have picked Coco Crisp. Since that is not the case, I'd have to think beyond the individual player performance, to what we'd need to acquire that player.

With Cleveland, as you're seeing them do against Boston, they want another young player. The price could get steeper. What's the price of obtaining Coco, vs the price of obtaining Damon? With one, you're talking about giving up players that the Yanks have no reason to let go of, especially after decades of having given up young farm guys to begin with. At least this time, it would be a young player in return.

In Damon, even if Coco becomes a better player in 2007 or 2008, we'd still have those same players that Cleveland would've wanted. By comparison, Boston won't have Marte, and with Bill Mueller having walked, and their current 3B, Mike Lowell having to re-prove himself after a dismal 2005, despite a high salary, then unless they turn to Youkilis, what does 3B look like for them?

I'm thinking that for the Yanks, free agency seemed better, since there's nothing in the farm that's useful which we can part with. For Boston, they seem to not mind letting guys go, so in the real world, I'd take Damon.

Now if we were dealing w/fantasy, I'd take Andruw Jones, even if his skills have dropped half a notch. Still an elite CFer, both offensively and defensively.

Jersey Yankee
01-25-06, 11:32 PM
I would think they want Chacon, Wang, Cano, or Crosby. I wouldn't give up 1 of those players, except maybe Bubba Crosby.
Right now, I think they could've certainly have expected Crosby to have been included in a package. Better him than Cano, Wang or any of the top farm guys.

I'll deal with the (fingers crossed) hope that Bubba can hit and thus be a semi-regular guy in CF & RF. Possibly LF if Matsui needs a break.

Funny thing is, if we'd have traded for Crosby and sent Bubba along, it would be only Bernie in CF, and who would we have to backup in the OF, other than Bernie?

Perhaps this goes into the long-played debate about whether Bubba's good enough to play CF as a starter, but I'd deal w/Bubba as a semi-regular 4th OFer, and hopefully he'll hit better. With him *AND* Bernie out there, I'd take that moreso than if we'd had *ONLY* Bernie out there as an OF backup.

Yanksule
01-26-06, 09:29 AM
Right and that's the way it should be. As another forumer pointed out - when The Yankees do a deal with the main objective apparently being to screw Boston it ususally ends up backfiring.

The best part was getting Damon, because he's going to be a great player for the Yanks.
The double benefit was weakening the Red Sox.

Win, win here.

seppy
01-26-06, 07:49 PM
If given a choice would you, as a yankee fan want Johnny Damon and his age and salary, or Coco at this point?

I think most will go with the latter..

I would absolutely rather have Coco. But I also agree with what others have said, that the Yankees would have had to give up too much, if a trade could have been worked out at all. Cashman made the right move given the circumstances.

destiNY
01-26-06, 08:42 PM
who would they have traded to Cleveland? I'm asking folks here to let me know who they'd have been cool with.

There's obviously an ongoing discussion of this in ATM re the Red Sox, but I'm wondering how Yankee fans feel about this had our own farm guys been asked for.

Your thoughts are appreciated. :)

Considering the Indians would have traded him for Shoppach and Mota I would've traded Proctor and Parrish...Shoppach is an overrated prospect, hes a bench/AAA career catcher (my own predictions) ;) .

destiNY
01-26-06, 08:44 PM
Melky Duncan and Wang would have done it.


that would've done a lot of trades...Look at what the deal was...Shoppach (he's proven nothing) and Mota who is having arm troubles and a horrible last year. A lot of less valuable players of that you just mentioned would've gotten this trade done.

HouseThatRingsBuild
01-27-06, 11:54 AM
If the red sox couldn't get him..I highly doubt the yanks could get him.

m_sisca
01-27-06, 12:57 PM
even though the guy is good, his name sounds like a freakin' breakfast cereal. glad he's not a Yankee.

MTYankee23
01-27-06, 01:03 PM
Pavano and Melky? Can Crisp play RF at all?

jjm33
01-28-06, 12:02 AM
Crisp would have looked nice in pinstripes. Yes, Damon costed nothing but cash, but we've been grabbing players who cost nothing but cash for years now. Young, rising talent, cost controlled players is the way to go...how great would Beckett and Crisp look in ny right now?

They have improved their rotation, pen and defense. While all we are thinking about is scoring 1,000 runs...

rajah
01-28-06, 08:41 AM
Considering the Indians would have traded him for Shoppach and Mota I would've traded Proctor and Parrish...Shoppach is an overrated prospect, hes a bench/AAA career catcher (my own predictions) ;) .


???? What are you talking about? The key for the Indians was Marte, who is rated the number one prospect in baseball by some. How could the Yankees match that, even with Duncan and Hughes?

And Shoppach may be overrated by some, but Parrish is worthless, totally worthless. He is not a propsect; he will never play in the majors. The Indians think Shoppach can be their number one catcher at some point, right or wrong.

And Mota may be hurt, but when healthy, he has proven that he can be an outstanding reliever. Proctor, who is getting old, has proven nothing other than the ability to throw hard.

I wish you could have the experience of offering Proctor and Parrish around the league and see what you would get.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-28-06, 11:22 AM
Crisp would have looked nice in pinstripes. Yes, Damon costed nothing but cash, but we've been grabbing players who cost nothing but cash for years now. Young, rising talent, cost controlled players is the way to go...how great would Beckett and Crisp look in ny right now?

They have improved their rotation, pen and defense. While all we are thinking about is scoring 1,000 runs...

Damon will likely have a higher OBP than Crisp next season, steal more bases and play at worse equal defense in center. That is what he is here for and getting payed for and he didnt cost the farm.

The Red Sox rotation has just as many question marks as the Yankees.(Is schilling healthy?, is so will he return to form at his age, Is Beckett's over 4 era on the road for the past 3 years and the switch from Nl east to al east something to worry about, etc.) The two pens are equal with the exception of the closer position. Who knows what the Sox will get from Foulke, but we pretty much know we are going to get from MO.

Regardless the Yankees made the right decision in not trading the farm when they can get equal or better production for just money. Maybe Crisp was the right decision for the Sox, regardless that has nothing to do with the Yankees and the Yankees should only do what is right for them, which Damon was.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-28-06, 11:25 AM
???? What are you talking about? The key for the Indians was Marte, who is rated the number one prospect in baseball by some. How could the Yankees match that, even with Duncan and Hughes?

And Shoppach may be overrated by some, but Parrish is worthless, totally worthless. He is not a propsect; he will never play in the majors. The Indians think Shoppach can be their number one catcher at some point, right or wrong.

And Mota may be hurt, but when healthy, he has proven that he can be an outstanding reliever. Proctor, who is getting old, has proven nothing other than the ability to throw hard.

I wish you could have the experience of offering Proctor and Parrish around the league and see what you would get.

Umm even if Shoppach was good enough to start, he wouldnt with Martinez in cleveland. There is no way Shoppach was anything but a throw in as a potetional back up catcher. I agree with everything else though which is why Cleveland raped.

rajah
01-28-06, 02:50 PM
Umm even if Shoppach was good enough to start, he wouldnt with Martinez in cleveland. There is no way Shoppach was anything but a throw in as a potetional back up catcher. I agree with everything else though which is why Cleveland raped.

I heard Shapiro state on the radio that they think Shoppach could be a starting catcher with 25 HRs and .250 BA. They purport to be high on him and wanted him as a part of the deal. In any event, Parrish as you agree is not even a potential backup.

Sam18
01-28-06, 03:20 PM
Crisp would have looked nice in pinstripes.

Agreed.


Damon costed nothing but cash, but we've been grabbing players who cost nothing but cash for years now.

So? It has worked for the most part.


Young, rising talent, cost controlled players is the way to go

Yes and they're very hard to aquire. Unless you don't care about your minor league system.


...how great would Beckett and Crisp look in ny right now?

Crisp yes...Beckett no. We have enough injury prone overrated players as it is.


They have improved their rotation, pen and defense.

And we haven't?


While all we are thinking about is scoring 1,000 runs...

Yeah that's soooooooooooo wrong.

38Special
01-28-06, 03:30 PM
I heard Shapiro state on the radio that they think Shoppach could be a starting catcher with 25 HRs and .250 BA. They purport to be high on him and wanted him as a part of the deal.

To continue to rave about his value only helps his value when he trades him next offseason

BombersBlvd
01-28-06, 06:38 PM
The issue is not Crisp, though it is unfortunate that the Sox found a way to turn the disappointing and costly Renteria into an inexpensive, speedy, switch-hitting, defensively sound solution at both centerfield AND leadoff w/ AL experience (and that they control him for a few years while he is just entering his prime), who, over the past two seasons of playing in a pitcher's park, has more or less matched Johnny Damon's offensive production during the same window at a miniscule fraction of the cost - the issue for me is that they freaking get David Riske on top of it. This means their bullpen will consist of at least some combination of:

Tavarez
Timlin
Seanez
Riske
Papelbon
Wakefield(?)
Foulke (?)

I just can't believe they got Riske.

38Special
01-28-06, 07:03 PM
David Riske isnt that good haha. If you're really fearing David Riske against the Yankees in the late innings, take up following the Royals.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-28-06, 09:27 PM
The issue is not Crisp, though it is unfortunate that the Sox found a way to turn the disappointing and costly Renteria into an inexpensive, speedy, switch-hitting, defensively sound solution at both centerfield AND leadoff w/ AL experience (and that they control him for a few years while he is just entering his prime), who, over the past two seasons of playing in a pitcher's park, has more or less matched Johnny Damon's offensive production during the same window at a miniscule fraction of the cost - the issue for me is that they freaking get David Riske on top of it. This means their bullpen will consist of at least some combination of:

Tavarez
Timlin
Seanez
Riske
Papelbon
Wakefield(?)
Foulke (?)

I just can't believe they got Riske.

Crisp isnt a good defender in CF(excellent in left but slightly below average in center) and he isnt a good leadoff hitter. Guys with .340 obp shouldnt lead off. By comparison Damon had a .366 obp last year and that was with his shoulder injury in the second half(in the first half he had a .380 obp, around the same he had in 2004) and jeter has an obp consistantly in the .380-.390 range. Oh yeah and Damon is a better base stealer(over the past 2 seasons he has more stolen bases and less times caught stealing than Crisp and that is playing for a Red Sox team that doesnt run often) Yeah Damon cost a lot of money but id rather have Damon at that price than have crisp at the price of Duncan Hughes and another prospect. Maybe Crisp was the best option for Boston but Damon was certainly the best option for the Yankees.

David Riske isnt good and if he didnt have a BABIP about 70 points below average last season he would have been horrible. He also has been declining rapidly in K rates. Not one person in that pen scares me except for Timline and Foulke if he bounces back.

Jasbro
01-28-06, 09:36 PM
I am the last person to quote defensive stats, but to those who do I ask this:

Why is a guy who has a career centerfield Fielding Pct of .986, Range Factor of 2.42, Zone Rating of .866, and UZR of -4 considered to be "no worse than Damon" and/or a "sound defensive solution in CF"?

Sam18
01-28-06, 09:57 PM
I am the last person to quote defensive stats, but to those who do I ask this:

Why is a guy who has a career centerfield Fielding Pct of .986, Range Factor of 2.42, Zone Rating of .866, and UZR of -4 considered to be "no worse than Damon" and/or a "sound defensive solution in CF".

Teh bestest!!1

SubwayFanatic
01-28-06, 10:05 PM
David Riske isnt good and if he didnt have a BABIP about 70 points below average last season he would have been horrible. He also has been declining rapidly in K rates.


I am a bit confused here -- How can you say that Riske isn't good?

The last three years:

186 ERA+
122 ERA+
132 ERA+

Opponents have hit .196, .240 and .208 the last three years, respectively.

Also, his K rate declined last year, but his walks went down as well. He walked 15 guys in 73.2 innings last year, as opposed to 44 in 77.1 innings the year before.

I am not saying that this guy is K-Rod or Rivera, but I would at least say that he is a good reliever.

Yankees1962
01-28-06, 10:12 PM
I am a bit confused here -- How can you say that Riske isn't good?

The last three years:

186 ERA+
122 ERA+
132 ERA+

Opponents have hit .196, .240 and .208 the last three years, respectively.

Also, his K rate declined last year, but his walks went down as well. He walked 15 guys in 73.2 innings last year, as opposed to 44 in 77.1 innings the year before.

I am not saying that this guy is K-Rod or Rivera, but I would at least say that he is a good reliever.
If he's so good then why did Cleveland trade him for Mota, who's health is questionable? That Cleveland GM is pretty sharp, one of the best young GMs in the game. If he had a bigger budget, he would give Cashman, Theo or whomever a run for their money.

genius-24
01-28-06, 11:07 PM
I am a bit confused here -- How can you say that Riske isn't good?

The last three years:

186 ERA+
122 ERA+
132 ERA+

Opponents have hit .196, .240 and .208 the last three years, respectively.

Also, his K rate declined last year, but his walks went down as well. He walked 15 guys in 73.2 innings last year, as opposed to 44 in 77.1 innings the year before.

I am not saying that this guy is K-Rod or Rivera, but I would at least say that he is a good reliever.

He pitched in VERYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY weak hitting division.

23and2
01-28-06, 11:14 PM
If he's so good then why did Cleveland trade him for Mota, who's health is questionable? That Cleveland GM is pretty sharp, one of the best young GMs in the game. If he had a bigger budget, he would give Cashman, Theo or whomever a run for their money.

If that Cleveland GM was so good, we'd know him as other than that "Cleveland GM".

apalradio
01-29-06, 12:10 AM
While Crisp's numbers seem comparable to Damon's, Johnny has played like an MVP for winning teams. Crisp has not yet ever done that. Damon's a winner, which counts for a lot. Both are excellent players, but Damon's the right fit for the Yanks right now.

38Special
01-29-06, 12:27 AM
I am a bit confused here -- How can you say that Riske isn't good?

The last three years:

186 ERA+
122 ERA+
132 ERA+

Opponents have hit .196, .240 and .208 the last three years, respectively.

Also, his K rate declined last year, but his walks went down as well. He walked 15 guys in 73.2 innings last year, as opposed to 44 in 77.1 innings the year before.

I am not saying that this guy is K-Rod or Rivera, but I would at least say that he is a good reliever.

Riske has been in the majors for 5 years

In 2001 he had a 1.98 ERA in 27 innings, but walked nearly 6 per 9 and had a WHIP at 1.39

In 2002 he had a 5.26 ERA with the same bad control

In 2003 he had a great year, with a 2.29 ERA, and very good peripherals

In 2004 he had a 3.72 ERA, but with a severe home run rate, bad control, and as a result, a 1.42 WHIP. A Timlin-like ERA

In 2005 he had a 3.10 ERA, with an even worse home run rate, much better control, but a plumetted strikeout rate. With a normal BABIP, his ERA would have easily been in the mid to high 4's.

In addition, his stuff is only average, and he was used as the last member of the pen because he could not be trusted in the big spots. This is supported by BP's WXRL and LEV stats on their site (see here (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=70734))

To quote a fan of the Indians who i spoke to about Riske:

(4:08:13 PM): decent pitcher, curls up and dies in high pressure situations
(4:08:28 PM): deceptive fastball, neat split change
(4:08:32 PM): horrible mindset


I really find it hilarious to see the joy and glee in Boston about their revamped bullpen as if it is a sure thing. when Tavarez has similar problems to Riske and is coming from the NL, Seanez spends as much time on the DL as Kevin Brown, and Timlin and Foulke are still Timlin and Foulke. Although Farnsworth and Dotel are far from sure things, they strike out tons of guys, and Myers and Villone are very good lefties.

And because they brought back Riske, theres now no room for a lefty in the pen unless Papelbon is sent to AAA. Riske and Papelbon are the only ones who do well against lefties, and Riske is the last one you would want up in a big situation versus a good lefty.

That being said, Crisp is a nice player to have, but i'd take Marte any day of the week. Crisp is an impatient hitter, a below average base stealer, an average defender with a below average arm. His high SLG was completely based on doubles that he fed off the cavernous LF corner in Cleveland, and most of his scant home runs barely cleared the fences. His splits which were the reverse in 04 continue to be misconstrued into Crisp being hurt by his ballpark and I continue to hear about the peak Crisp has not hit, and the great fall that Damon is sure to feel in 2006. His small frame and flawed toolset, doesn't lead me to believe that hes going to blossom into anything more than a gap hitter. But hey, a hitter who hits 300 has to count for something, and I definitely would have loved to have him on the team last year as opposed to Bubba or Bernie.

Unfortunately, the Red Sox traded Marte within the American League, leaving a young player with patience and power to play the corners for a team already young and talented, and sapping the Red Sox of the only good power hitting prospect they have.

Yankees1962
01-29-06, 05:21 AM
If that Cleveland GM was so good, we'd know him as other than that "Cleveland GM".
You don't know his name?

Saxmania
01-29-06, 06:18 AM
If that Cleveland GM was so good, we'd know him as other than that "Cleveland GM".

He is so good, and most of us do know his name.

If you look at how quickly Cleveland has rebuilt, from losing one of the premier offensive lineups in the game to free agency/trade (Alomar, Thome, Ramirez, JuanGon) because they couldn't afford to keep them all, it's quite amazing. It's a textbook case of rebuilding effectively, and even more amazing is that they made the right call on pretty much all the players.

Alomer bombed at an incredible rate after leaving Cleveland
Ramirez has remained an excellent hitter, but his contract has weighted down an organisation with far more wealth
JuanGon has been injured and ineffective
Thome's had a couple of good years, but injuries have caught up

Colon's the only one who's still as effective as when he left. Meanwhile, Cleveland has built up arguably the best MLB-proven young core in the majors, with Martinez, Hafner, Sizemore, Peralta, and soon Marte to come. They're strong up the middle with All-Star caliber C, SS, and CF performances this year, which will make it so much easier to build a championship-quality lineup through trades and free agency.

Their pitching isn't as great, but Sabathia and Lee are both strong young starters at this stage, and their farm system is deep enough to contain some good options. The AL Central is going to get tough next year - Minnesota have the pitching (Santana, Radke, Liriano, Silva), the ChiSox are pretty balanced, and Cleveland are coming back with a vengeance. And soon enough Detroit could have Verlander, Zumaya, and Bonderman with which to cut through lineups.

You should know Shapiro's name. He's taken the Indians and turned them around in next to no time.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Stupid Flanders
01-29-06, 06:19 AM
Well, let's see.

Jason Michaels would have cost the Yanks Wang + Cano/Duncan/Hughes


Crisp would have cost at LEAST Wang+.

So there wouldn't have been a deal.

Stupid Flanders
01-29-06, 06:23 AM
I would think they want Chacon, Wang, Cano, or Crosby. I wouldn't give up 1 of those players, except maybe Bubba Crosby.
.... maybe?

nyctalopia
01-29-06, 06:40 AM
I am a bit confused here -- How can you say that Riske isn't good?

The last three years:

186 ERA+
122 ERA+
132 ERA+

Opponents have hit .196, .240 and .208 the last three years, respectively.

Also, his K rate declined last year, but his walks went down as well. He walked 15 guys in 73.2 innings last year, as opposed to 44 in 77.1 innings the year before.

I am not saying that this guy is K-Rod or Rivera, but I would at least say that he is a good reliever.
he recorded NO holds last year. that means, every single time he came into the game with a 3-run or less lead, he gave it up (except for that single save he had). so yeah, all those relatively impressive numbers are in non-pressure situations, and the guy just can't pitch when he absolutely needs to record an out. i'll be cheering everytime he comes in with the Sox leading by 3 after 6 innings.

nyctalopia
01-29-06, 06:42 AM
He is so good, and most of us do know his name.

If you look at how quickly Cleveland has rebuilt, from losing one of the premier offensive lineups in the game to free agency/trade (Alomar, Thome, Ramirez, JuanGon) because they couldn't afford to keep them all, it's quite amazing. It's a textbook case of rebuilding effectively, and even more amazing is that they made the right call on pretty much all the players.

Alomer bombed at an incredible rate after leaving Cleveland
Ramirez has remained an excellent hitter, but his contract has weighted down an organisation with far more wealth
JuanGon has been injured and ineffective
Thome's had a couple of good years, but injuries have caught up

Colon's the only one who's still as effective as when he left. Meanwhile, Cleveland has built up arguably the best MLB-proven young core in the majors, with Martinez, Hafner, Sizemore, Peralta, and soon Marte to come. They're strong up the middle with All-Star caliber C, SS, and CF performances this year, which will make it so much easier to build a championship-quality lineup through trades and free agency.

Their pitching isn't as great, but Sabathia and Lee are both strong young starters at this stage, and their farm system is deep enough to contain some good options. The AL Central is going to get tough next year - Minnesota have the pitching (Santana, Radke, Liriano, Silva), the ChiSox are pretty balanced, and Cleveland are coming back with a vengeance. And soon enough Detroit could have Verlander, Zumaya, and Bonderman with which to cut through lineups.

You should know Shapiro's name. He's taken the Indians and turned them around in next to no time.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania
Agreed, agreed, agreed, and ... AGREED. Good post.

Yankees1962
01-29-06, 07:50 AM
He is so good, and most of us do know his name.

If you look at how quickly Cleveland has rebuilt, from losing one of the premier offensive lineups in the game to free agency/trade (Alomar, Thome, Ramirez, JuanGon) because they couldn't afford to keep them all, it's quite amazing. It's a textbook case of rebuilding effectively, and even more amazing is that they made the right call on pretty much all the players.

Alomer bombed at an incredible rate after leaving Cleveland
Ramirez has remained an excellent hitter, but his contract has weighted down an organisation with far more wealth
JuanGon has been injured and ineffective
Thome's had a couple of good years, but injuries have caught up

Colon's the only one who's still as effective as when he left. Meanwhile, Cleveland has built up arguably the best MLB-proven young core in the majors, with Martinez, Hafner, Sizemore, Peralta, and soon Marte to come. They're strong up the middle with All-Star caliber C, SS, and CF performances this year, which will make it so much easier to build a championship-quality lineup through trades and free agency.

Their pitching isn't as great, but Sabathia and Lee are both strong young starters at this stage, and their farm system is deep enough to contain some good options. The AL Central is going to get tough next year - Minnesota have the pitching (Santana, Radke, Liriano, Silva), the ChiSox are pretty balanced, and Cleveland are coming back with a vengeance. And soon enough Detroit could have Verlander, Zumaya, and Bonderman with which to cut through lineups.

You should know Shapiro's name. He's taken the Indians and turned them around in next to no time.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania
I couldn't agree with you more. I live in Michigan so I'm surrounded by Tiger fans asking why their team can't be turned around like Shapiro has done with the Indians. Dave Dombrowski will be feeling the heat if he doesn't start getting better results within the next two seasons in Detroit.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-29-06, 10:02 AM
Riske has been in the majors for 5 years

In 2001 he had a 1.98 ERA in 27 innings, but walked nearly 6 per 9 and had a WHIP at 1.39

In 2002 he had a 5.26 ERA with the same bad control

In 2003 he had a great year, with a 2.29 ERA, and very good peripherals

In 2004 he had a 3.72 ERA, but with a severe home run rate, bad control, and as a result, a 1.42 WHIP. A Timlin-like ERA

In 2005 he had a 3.10 ERA, with an even worse home run rate, much better control, but a plumetted strikeout rate. With a normal BABIP, his ERA would have easily been in the mid to high 4's.

In addition, his stuff is only average, and he was used as the last member of the pen because he could not be trusted in the big spots. This is supported by BP's WXRL and LEV stats on their site (see here (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=70734))

To quote a fan of the Indians who i spoke to about Riske:


I really find it hilarious to see the joy and glee in Boston about their revamped bullpen as if it is a sure thing. when Tavarez has similar problems to Riske and is coming from the NL, Seanez spends as much time on the DL as Kevin Brown, and Timlin and Foulke are still Timlin and Foulke. Although Farnsworth and Dotel are far from sure things, they strike out tons of guys, and Myers and Villone are very good lefties.

And because they brought back Riske, theres now no room for a lefty in the pen unless Papelbon is sent to AAA. Riske and Papelbon are the only ones who do well against lefties, and Riske is the last one you would want up in a big situation versus a good lefty.

That being said, Crisp is a nice player to have, but i'd take Marte any day of the week. Crisp is an impatient hitter, a below average base stealer, an average defender with a below average arm. His high SLG was completely based on doubles that he fed off the cavernous LF corner in Cleveland, and most of his scant home runs barely cleared the fences. His splits which were the reverse in 04 continue to be misconstrued into Crisp being hurt by his ballpark and I continue to hear about the peak Crisp has not hit, and the great fall that Damon is sure to feel in 2006. His small frame and flawed toolset, doesn't lead me to believe that hes going to blossom into anything more than a gap hitter. But hey, a hitter who hits 300 has to count for something, and I definitely would have loved to have him on the team last year as opposed to Bubba or Bernie.

Unfortunately, the Red Sox traded Marte within the American League, leaving a young player with patience and power to play the corners for a team already young and talented, and sapping the Red Sox of the only good power hitting prospect they have.

Pretty much 100% of what I was thinking.

AJW
01-29-06, 11:23 AM
I agree, we would have had to give up too much for Coco.

Coco, a dogs name. Just pick up Eddie Murphy Comedian and you'll know what I mean.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000025XB/qid%3D1138551967/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-0396270-8243326

ericns1
01-29-06, 06:53 PM
Mike Lupica says the Red Sox don't lose much offense and get a younger player

BeantownYankee
01-29-06, 08:22 PM
Mike Lupica says the Red Sox don't lose much offense and get a younger player
Lupica would say that no matter who they stuck in center that was younger since he's anti-Yankee ;)

AJW
01-29-06, 09:35 PM
Lupica would say that no matter who they stuck in center that was younger since he's anti-Yankee ;)

You got that right. That little punk has been a Yankee hater for God knows how long.

Jersey Yankee
01-29-06, 10:06 PM
Mike Lupica says the Red Sox don't lose much offense and get a younger player
Had the Yanks gotten Coco, he'd have said, in 10,000 words or more, that Johnny Damon was the guy who we'd have to get, the one who could be more powerful, the one who would come through in October when we needed him the most.

There's logic, there's illogic, and there's Lupica.

Grape Ape
01-29-06, 10:16 PM
There's logic, there's illogic, and there's Lupica.

That's signature worthy.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-29-06, 10:17 PM
Mike Lupica says the Red Sox don't lose much offense and get a younger player

Lupica isnt a credible source of Yankee information. Its going to be funny how pissed off he is when the Mets dont win the division despit their huge offseaon.

AndThenThereWasTino
01-29-06, 11:34 PM
Mike Lupica says the Red Sox don't lose much offense and get a younger player
I bet that will be the concesus in the media since a lot of people are anti- Yankee and don't want to admit how hurt the Red Sox are due to Damon leaving

CelerinoSanchez
01-30-06, 12:12 AM
If the Yanks had gotten Coco Crisp instead of Damon ...

I'd be a lot happier since Crisp is entering his prime and is 6 years younger. Damon truly is an idiot.....and a megalomaniac. When I read what this guy says, I just shake my head. Like the Giambino, he'll be forced to change his personality to fit in with the Bomber Way. And like the Giambino, I think the idiot Damon will regret signing with us.

38Special
01-30-06, 08:52 AM
If the Yanks had gotten Coco Crisp instead of Damon ...

I'd be a lot happier since Crisp is entering his prime and is 6 years younger. Damon truly is an idiot.....and a megalomaniac. When I read what this guy says, I just shake my head. Like the Giambino, he'll be forced to change his personality to fit in with the Bomber Way. And like the Giambino, I think the idiot Damon will regret signing with us.

Last week, Kyle quit the band. Now we're back together.

goin for 27
01-30-06, 01:42 PM
Riske has been in the majors for 5 years

In 2001 he had a 1.98 ERA in 27 innings, but walked nearly 6 per 9 and had a WHIP at 1.39

In 2002 he had a 5.26 ERA with the same bad control

In 2003 he had a great year, with a 2.29 ERA, and very good peripherals

In 2004 he had a 3.72 ERA, but with a severe home run rate, bad control, and as a result, a 1.42 WHIP. A Timlin-like ERA

In 2005 he had a 3.10 ERA, with an even worse home run rate, much better control, but a plumetted strikeout rate. With a normal BABIP, his ERA would have easily been in the mid to high 4's.

In addition, his stuff is only average, and he was used as the last member of the pen because he could not be trusted in the big spots. This is supported by BP's WXRL and LEV stats on their site (see here (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=70734))

I think Riske is a solid pickup for the Sox. He is not coming in to be their closer, he will be a solid middle reliever.

Found this at SOSH, but I do agree...

He'll be 29 this year and is coming off of three consecutive very successful years. He posted ARPs (Adjusted Runs Prevented) of 35.1 in 2003, 11.6 in 2004, and 18.0 in 2005. That's a three year total of 64.7. Billy Wagner's 3 year ARP is 65.4. Is he Billy Wagner? No way, but he is pretty solid.

In the last three years he's held opposing batters to a .215 / .285 / .375

He is not a difference maker, but certainly a solid arm in their pen. As for your WXRL and LEV stats, be careful. For example, Riske rates higher than Chacon, and he was pretty solid last year. I expect Chacon to revert a bit, but he should still be a pretty good arm for the Yanks.

Also, it is tough to look at the leverage issues when the Indians had Betancourt, Howry, and Wickman putting up huge numbers. When Riske pitched, he was damn effective. ERA+ in the last 3 years of 132,122, and 186 are nothing to sneeze at.

PinStripesAnonymous
01-30-06, 02:44 PM
The Red Sox essentially traded Rentaria, prospects, and $11M for Coco Crisp.

Well, they got Coco Crisp, and 2 first-round draft picks (from losing Damon).
I geuss thats a net positive for them, even after giving up Marte.

jpao89
01-30-06, 02:51 PM
Well, they got Coco Crisp, and 2 first-round draft picks (from losing Damon).
I geuss thats a net positive for them, even after giving up Marte.

I do not think they offered Damon arbitration, thus, no draft picks. Is that correct? At this stage in his career, I think Damon is only slightly (if that) better than Crisp. The difference being that Damon will probably decline and Crisp get better.

As many have noted, in order for the Yankees to get Crisp, it would have required giving up Wang or Cano. Given the need to accumulate ML ready minor league talent, i.e. by not trading away any more prospects, the Yankees were not in the game for a young player like Crisp. Hence the true tale to be told, namely, the Sox are at a stage where they have more ML ready minor league talent to trade (well, they did). Hopefully within the next few years the Yankees will once again be in a position to bring in younger, cheaper talent from their own farm or use their farm to acquire what they need.

njp584
01-30-06, 02:58 PM
If you believe Gammons, which I'm sure none of us do, the Red Sox grand plan was to get Coco Crisp:

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2309806 (apologies, it's for insiders)

The gist of the article is that the Red Sox are showing that their front office is back in order now that Theo has returned from lunch (to quote Michael Wilbon.)

Funny, This was the same Gammons who applauded both Theo for leaving, and the Red Sox for letting him go just a few weeks ago, on January 3rd:

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2278930

In that same article from January 3rd, he said something to the same effect, that the Red Sox front office was just fine, running smoothly despite Theo leaving. So... apparently Theo exists in this nether region, and has no effect on the state of the Red Sox front office. Either that, or Peter Gammons has no clue what he's writing.

I guess it's hard to type from your knees, when you can't see the screen.

38Special
01-30-06, 03:09 PM
I think Riske is a solid pickup for the Sox. He is not coming in to be their closer, he will be a solid middle reliever.

Found this at SOSH, but I do agree...
Is he Billy Wagner? No way, but he is pretty solid.

In the last three years he's held opposing batters to a .215 / .285 / .375

Once again, look at the numbers i posted. What the hell is ARP? Wagner had had higher strikeout rates, lower walk rates, lower HR rates, lower ERA, and lower hit rates the past 3 years as well as pitching in the closer role. That's hilarious.



He is not a difference maker, but certainly a solid arm in their pen. As for your WXRL and LEV stats, be careful. For example, Riske rates higher than Chacon, and he was pretty solid last year. I expect Chacon to revert a bit, but he should still be a pretty good arm for the Yanks.

Oy vey.

In big bold text: "Relievers Expected Wins Added"

Chacon gave up 8 base runners in 3.2 innings last year as a reliever.



Also, it is tough to look at the leverage issues when the Indians had Betancourt, Howry, and Wickman putting up huge numbers. When Riske pitched, he was damn effective. ERA+ in the last 3 years of 132,122, and 186 are nothing to sneeze at.

ERA tells the whole story ;) ;) ;). Aaron Small is going to post Sub 3.00 ERAs for the remainder of his career ;) ;) ;). Riske was tried as closer and tried in tougher situations and failed. There's a reason why he had no holds last year. Just because they had Howry there doesnt mean he wouldnt have had a chance to take a bigger role..

CTSoxFan
01-30-06, 03:46 PM
I do not think they offered Damon arbitration, thus, no draft picks. Is that correct? At this stage in his career, I think Damon is only slightly (if that) better than Crisp. The difference being that Damon will probably decline and Crisp get better.

The Red Sox did indeed offer arbitration to Damon, who promptly refused it. If they hadn't offered him arbitration, they would have been closed out of even talking to him about returning until sometime in May. So they do get draft picks, though I'm not sure offhand which ones (in theory it's a first-rounder and a sandwich first-rounder; in practice, depending upon any moves the Yankees had made beforehand to cost them picks, it might be a second- or third-rounder to accompany the first-round sandwich pick).

CTSoxFan
01-30-06, 03:59 PM
Riske was tried as closer and tried in tougher situations and failed. There's a reason why he had no holds last year. Just because they had Howry there doesnt mean he wouldnt have had a chance to take a bigger role..

If Riske was tried as a closer and tried in tougher situations and failed...how did he manage to also rack up a grand total of zero blown saves?

The urban legend that Riske spit the bit in September grows and grows. In reality, his manager lost faith in him, and didn't use him very often. A total of six September appearances, exactly one of which was an unqualified disaster, and this following an August in which Riske had an ERA of 2.31 (and a July ERA of 1.80).

What Riske CAN control: how well he pitches.

What he CAN'T control: in which innings and in which situations he pitches. That fell to Eric Wedge last year.

38Special
01-30-06, 05:02 PM
If Riske was tried as a closer and tried in tougher situations and failed...how did he manage to also rack up a grand total of zero blown saves?

The urban legend that Riske spit the bit in September grows and grows. In reality, his manager lost faith in him, and didn't use him very often. A total of six September appearances, exactly one of which was an unqualified disaster, and this following an August in which Riske had an ERA of 2.31 (and a July ERA of 1.80).

What Riske CAN control: how well he pitches.

What he CAN'T control: in which innings and in which situations he pitches. That fell to Eric Wedge last year.
Riske has been in the majors more than 1 year. This isnt something that magically happened in 2005. Ask Indians fans about him and youll get a similar answer

PinStripesAnonymous
01-30-06, 05:43 PM
The Red Sox did indeed offer arbitration to Damon, who promptly refused it. If they hadn't offered him arbitration, they would have been closed out of even talking to him about returning until sometime in May. So they do get draft picks, though I'm not sure offhand which ones (in theory it's a first-rounder and a sandwich first-rounder; in practice, depending upon any moves the Yankees had made beforehand to cost them picks, it might be a second- or third-rounder to accompany the first-round sandwich pick).

regarding BOS and NYY draft info:

Uh, they get the #28, and #39 pick for losing Damon

We get the #21 and 40 picks for losing Gordon.

Sox also keep their #27 pick, and get the #43 pick for Bill Mueller (and the #82 pick in the 3rd round).



(from the 2006 draft compensation list on, argh, SOSH):

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/lofiversion/index.php/t2134-0.html

also Baseball America

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/columnists/askba.html

Jasbro
01-30-06, 10:25 PM
Last week, Kyle quit the band. Now we're back together.

A JUNIOR Western bacon chee.

PittsburghYankeeFan
02-01-06, 08:48 PM
Crisp isnt a good defender in CF(excellent in left but slightly below average in center) and he isnt a good leadoff hitter. Guys with .340 obp shouldnt lead off. By comparison Damon had a .366 obp last year and that was with his shoulder injury in the second half(in the first half he had a .380 obp, around the same he had in 2004) and jeter has an obp consistantly in the .380-.390 range. Oh yeah and Damon is a better base stealer(over the past 2 seasons he has more stolen bases and less times caught stealing than Crisp and that is playing for a Red Sox team that doesnt run often) Yeah Damon cost a lot of money but id rather have Damon at that price than have crisp at the price of Duncan Hughes and another prospect. Maybe Crisp was the best option for Boston but Damon was certainly the best option for the Yankees.

David Riske isnt good and if he didnt have a BABIP about 70 points below average last season he would have been horrible. He also has been declining rapidly in K rates. Not one person in that pen scares me except for Timline and Foulke if he bounces back.

Good points.

Plus, Damon has played for a WS winner and can take the pressure. Crisp? Damon = $$$ (of which the Y's have a lot). Crisp = prospects (of which the Y's have few right now).

Gammons = ridiculous, and becoming more pathetic as time goes on.

Red Sox = fighting with Blue Jays for second, and maybe the Wild Card if (very) lucky. One thing never mentioned is what would happen to the Sox if Manny +/- Ortiz went down for a significant time with an injury, especially now with not a lot of pop in their lineup...

Jersey Yankee
02-02-06, 03:08 AM
That's signature worthy.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ... :gulp::O :evil: