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SubwayFanatic
01-21-06, 11:24 PM
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=122417&format=text

scull567
01-21-06, 11:26 PM
Ugh. Alex Gonzalez? Are you kidding me?

SouthernBoSox
01-21-06, 11:29 PM
Alright! We got Crisp!! Somhow we turned Edgar into an upgrade in CF. Of course thats debatable. But really I am REALLY excited about 06 and beyond. It says it is a multi-player deal so I'm sure the Red Sox are getting more then just Coco for Marte and Mota, so I will wait an see before I really judge the deal but I like it so far.


Alex Gonzalez? Well ... um ... well.... he can play defense ;)

mik3
01-21-06, 11:33 PM
Marte AND Mota for Crisp. I think that right there will tell you Theo doesn't have as much control as sox fans think.

terminator
01-21-06, 11:35 PM
Alright! We got Crisp!! Somhow we turned Edgar into an upgrade in CF. Of course thats debatable. But really I am REALLY excited about 06 and beyond. It says it is a multi-player deal so I'm sure the Red Sox are getting more then just Coco for Marte and Mota, so I will wait an see before I really judge the deal but I like it so far.


Alex Gonzalez? Well ... um ... well.... he can play defense ;)

I can understand the Crisp deal - there was no way he could have been obtained without trading one amongst Lester, Papelbon or Marte. But Alex Gonzalez? Factoring in both offense and defense, is he an upgrade over Cora? Or Pedroia (even if he hasn't played a game in the majors)?

DiMaggio5CF
01-21-06, 11:39 PM
Crisp is a decent player, but not much more.

At 26, he's primed for a breakout year, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

He looks like a .300, 15 HR, .345 OBP guy after doing it for two straight years.

Crisp might be better in the long run because of the age factors, but for right now, I'm glad we have Damon.

CTSoxFan
01-21-06, 11:40 PM
Marte AND Mota for Crisp. I think that right there will tell you Theo doesn't have as much control as sox fans think.

I don't think thats' the extent of the deal. There are other players involved.

Even so, while it hurts to part with Marte, they are bringing back Crisp, a young player who is ready to play right NOW (whether or not Marte is ready is open for debate, and the lack of a position for him is indisputable).

The signing of Alex Gonzalez is the mystery here. While he'll likely be an improvement over Edgar Renteria (not saying much) and Alex Cora (saying even less), the difference is not dramatic enough to justify too many dollars. If Gonzalez signs for a high price or (even worse!) more than one season, I'm not going to love it.

Loretta...Crisp...Ortiz...Ramirez...Varitek...Nixon...Youkilis...Lowell...Gonzalez. I believe I'd be happy going to war with that lineup. I daresay we won't lose much run production from what we've gotten accustomed to over the past couple of seasons, especially if Lowell makes any kind of a comeback.

scull567
01-21-06, 11:40 PM
Alright! We got Crisp!! Somhow we turned Edgar into an upgrade in CF. Of course thats debatable. But really I am REALLY excited about 06 and beyond. It says it is a multi-player deal so I'm sure the Red Sox are getting more then just Coco for Marte and Mota, so I will wait an see before I really judge the deal but I like it so far.


Alex Gonzalez? Well ... um ... well.... he can play defense ;)

Crisp I like but the Red Sox better be damn sure he can play a good CF. His defensive ratings in LF are amazing but CF isn't the same. That and I know you have to give up something good to get something good but giving the Indians who are already stacked with young talent and legit top 10 prospect concerns me, they are already good enough! Plus they get Michaels who quite possibly is an upgrade over Crisp. If he can be had for some bullpen arms as the article indicates, I'd rather the Red Sox just do that. As you say, though, I'll wait and see the entire deal before making a complete judgement.

But I can say with complete confidence that I hate the Alex Gonzalez signing. He has a reputation as a superb defender but his defensive numbers say otherwise. Starting him is just accepting mediocrity. Can you be a little original? There are a number of internal options that would likely outperform Gonzalez in a starting role. Whatever offense they gained with Crisp over Stern in center would be completely negated by putting black hole Gonzalez in the everyday lineup.

Nick Day
01-21-06, 11:40 PM
i hope the Alex Gon. is like a one year thing. maybe let Pedroia move back to short for 07

SouthernBoSox
01-21-06, 11:44 PM
Crisp is a decent player, but not much more.

At 26, he's primed for a breakout year, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

He looks like a .300, 15 HR, .345 OBP guy after doing it for two straight years.

Crisp might be better in the long run because of the age factors, but for right now, I'm glad we have Damon.

Well a Red Sox fan would look at the fact he just turned 26, RAKED on the Road last year. Having an OPS near .900 last year and having good numbers at Fenway also. Switch hitting young and can hit. Pretty freaking good player.

CTSoxFan
01-21-06, 11:45 PM
Crisp is a decent player, but not much more.

At 26, he's primed for a breakout year, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

He looks like a .300, 15 HR, .345 OBP guy after doing it for two straight years.

Crisp might be better in the long run because of the age factors, but for right now, I'm glad we have Damon.

Damon's OBP at age 23: .338. At age 24? .339. The next two seasons, he jumped up to .379 and .382. A player's mid-to-late twenties are largely regarded as his prime years, and it's not at all unusual to see significant leaps in his stats during those years. Surely Crisp, who's 26 next year, is capable of similar improvement, especially if he can use Fenway Park to his advantage.

By the way, Crisp's OPS+ of 119 last year is actually a baby step up from Damon's 113.

Welcome to Boston, Coco!

Steph19
01-21-06, 11:46 PM
Crisp is a good player and a good pick-up for the Sox. Bit on the expensive side, though. Truth be told, I'm glad the Sox didn't hold onto Marte, if for no other reason then that people can stop talking so much about their farm.

Alex Gonzalez, on the other hand... not so much.

PinstripePride
01-21-06, 11:46 PM
Coco Crisp is pretty sweet.

SubwayFanatic
01-21-06, 11:47 PM
Crisp is a decent player, but not much more.

At 26, he's primed for a breakout year, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

He looks like a .300, 15 HR, .345 OBP guy after doing it for two straight years.

Crisp might be better in the long run because of the age factors, but for right now, I'm glad we have Damon.

Crisp may not put up eye-popping numbers, but I think you are selling him a bit short.

He ranked fourth in VORP last year among AL left fielders. He put up a better OPS+ than Damon last year. He is also an excellent defender.

I don't think he will be a future MVP or anything, but he is more than a 'decent player.'

terminator
01-21-06, 11:49 PM
Welcome to Boston, Coco!

I'm a little unsure regarding the veracity of the report. If the Sox FO were going to leak it, I'd assume they would use the Globe to do so.

Besides, is it even possible for someone other than Rosenthal to break a story this off-season?

Btw, regarding Crisp projections, here is a post from SOSH which Eric Van had posted Saturday evening:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill James: .296 / .348 / .442

Ron Shandler: .290 / .339 / .468

However, he'd be moving from the second worst hitter's park in MLB, 2003-5 (tied with RFK and Dodger Stadium) to the fourth best. In particular, playing half your games at the Jake reduces HR for a RHB by 14%, while Fenway gives a 6.5% boost. James' projection of 13 HR becomes 16, Shandler's 20 becomes 25. James projects 34 2B, 4 3B, which becomes 38 2B, 5 3B.

BA gets a boost (from -2% to +1.5%). Let's see . . .

Crisp in Fenway, BJ, something like .307 / .358 / .479 (Damon: .292 / .361 / .425)

(Wow . . . I did that by components, and the 47 point boost in OPS matches my quick-and-dirty rule of thumb for a guy moving from a Run Index of 87 to
110: (110-87)*2 = 46. Good!)

RS, something like .300 / .348 / .514 (Damon: .295 / .359 / .429)

(Well, he's getting a 55 point OPS boost here . . . probably because, with these two parks, power hitters are helped more than OBP guys and Shandler has him as more of a HR guy than James does.)

He'd be a very potent #6 hitter, allowing Lowell to hit 7 or 8, which would take some pressure off him. With Loretta and Youkilis, I don't see why the new CF has to hit 1 or 2.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mik3
01-21-06, 11:50 PM
Even if they are getting anything else, it won't be much. It's not like Ryan Howard will be thrown in or something if the Phillies are the third team..

jonnyc39
01-21-06, 11:51 PM
Pretty clear that Theo's announced rejoining the organization was timed with this deal.

I'm very happy that the Sox appear to actually be upgrading CF. Far cry from what we have been thinking for the past month.

I'm sad to see Marte go, though. But Crisp has proven he can produce at the ML level, at a more important position than Marte plays. Here's hoping Crisp contiues to improve upon what he's already shown.

Alex Gonzalez though, ugh. Just give me Cora.

CTSoxFan
01-21-06, 11:52 PM
But I can say with complete confidence that I hate the Alex Gonzalez signing. He has a reputation as a superb defender but his defensive numbers say otherwise.

Which defensive numbers in particular?


Whatever offense they gained with Crisp over Stern in center would be completely negated by putting black hole Gonzalez in the everyday lineup.

The larger point here, I think, is that Crisp and Gonzalez provide you an overall better lineup than Stern and Cora, the two "incumbents" if this trade & signing don't occur. In general, though, I agree that making the trade and letting Cora play short (in anticipation of Pedroia being ready sometime in the next year or two) might make more sense than the A-Gonz signing.

mik3
01-21-06, 11:52 PM
Personally, I wouldn't do this deal. I don't see the Sox as competing this year, so why trade a guy who could be your stud 3b when you're ready to compete again?

SouthernBoSox
01-21-06, 11:55 PM
Personally, I wouldn't do this deal. I don't see the Sox as competing this year, so why trade a guy who could be your stud 3b when you're ready to compete again?
Did you factor in getting Coco? Who last year put up higher OPS then Damon AT one of the worst hitting Ballparks?

Lets see what the Red Sox have done so far

Gotten Younger? Yep
Better Pitching? Yep
Better Defense? Yep
Better Offense? Maybe
Worse Offense? Possible

The Offense is still going to score 850 runs and could actually score more then 900 like last year. I just don't see how a team that has improved from last year where they won 95 games isn't going to compete.

CTSoxFan
01-21-06, 11:56 PM
Personally, I wouldn't do this deal. I don't see the Sox as competing this year, so why trade a guy who could be your stud 3b when you're ready to compete again?

You're basing your conclusion on a premise which the Red Sox FO obviously doesn't share. They are clearly preparing to compete this year.

And why not? The lineup loses very little run production from last year, the starting rotation (if healthy) is a huge improvement from last year, and the bullpen is also much deeper and better, especially if Foulke returns at anything close to full strength.

To conclude that the Red Sox won't compete this year assumes multiple failures in multiple players. It's certainly possible, but I think I'd let them actually occur before crying "uncle" on the '06 season.

CTSoxFan
01-22-06, 12:02 AM
From the Herald article:
There was some indication that the Phillies and Indians were hoping to complete the deal for Michaels as soon as last night. Cleveland was believed to be sending one of two relievers - left-hander Arthur Rhodes or right-hander Rafael Betancourt - to the Phillies in exchange for Michaels.
I wonder if the Phils would have been amenable to taking Mota for Michaels? I prefer Crisp to Michaels, truth be told, but if the options were Mota (or some other reliever) for Michaels vs. Marte AND Mota for Crisp, I'm not so sure.

I'm also going to feel a little more certain about this when someone besides Tony Massarotti is reporting it.

SubwayFanatic
01-22-06, 12:02 AM
I like the Yankees team right now a little better, but I know one thing -- I sure as hell am not writing off the the Red Sox.

I think all this "Red Sox are going to not compete next year!" talk is a bit crazy.

With the addition of Crisp, they now have elite talent in LF, at DH, at catcher and in center. All the guys they have at those positions are one of, if not the best, among their peers in the AL.

Their bullpen next year could not possibly be worse than it was in 2005.

I can sit here and hope the Sox will fail miserably next year - and maybe they will - but I am not going to count on it.

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 12:02 AM
Gotten Younger? Yep
Better Pitching? Yep
Better Defense? Yep
Better Offense? Maybe
Worse Offense? Possible
This is how I see it as well. Many Yanks fans will jump and say that there are still huge question marks in the rotation (similar to the Yankees), along with our situation at 3B, but with a very solid CF I think many of the holes the Sox had are filled.

No more criticism of the Sox offseason, IMO. They have made the deals they needed to make, with the possible exception of SS, where I believe they can go cheap until a better solution (Pedroia?) arises.

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 12:03 AM
From the Herald article:
I wonder if the Phils would have been amenable to taking Mota for Michaels? I prefer Crisp to Michaels, truth be told, but if the options were Mota (or some other reliever) for Michaels vs. Marte AND Mota for Crisp, I'm not so sure.

I'm also going to feel a little more certain about this when someone besides Tony Massarotti is reporting it.

And if we are just recieving Crisp. You would think another player would be comign our way.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:04 AM
From a Yankees fan view, better the Sox get Crip than Michaels, a more natural CF who is an OBP machine who I feel is the more reliable, more of the "Theo-type" (supposedly) player than Crisp. I believe as an every day player he's going to have a break out year, IMO. Time will tell. On the other hand, the Sox could have done much worse than Crisp.

I'm EXCITED at the prospect of Alex Gonzalez playing short for the Sox. He's one of the worst hitters in baseball, period. There is no glove in baseball that can make up for his atrocious bat.

A very good baseball day, indeed. Hope these deals don't fall through.

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 12:04 AM
I like the Yankees team right now a little better, but I know one thing -- I sure as hell am not writing off the the Red Sox.

I think all this "Red Sox are going to not compete next year!" talk is a bit crazy.

With the addition of Crisp, they now have elite talent in LF, at DH, at catcher and in center. All the guys they have at those positions are one of, if not the best, among their peers in the AL.

Their bullpen next year could not possibly be worse than it was in 2005.

I can sit here and hope the Sox will fail miserably next year - and maybe they will - but I am not going to count on it.Thanks, SF. Truth is the Sox have dealt with most of the problems they had last year, and the problems that have arisen in the off season. Of course nothing is proven, but I like our chances.

NYYBombshell
01-22-06, 12:07 AM
Hey, the Sox finally get that SS named Alex they always wanted!


OTOH, is anyone else worried David Wells will mistake Coco Crisp for breakfast cereal and eat him?


(I'm just joking, in case anyone wants to get their knickers in a knot)

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 12:08 AM
From a Yankees fan view, better they get Crip than Michaels, a more natural CF who is an OBP machine who I feel is the more reliable player.

Man, I love when people are this mis-informed

Jason Michaels is a corner OF that is suspect in CF and only played ther this year because a old man named Kenny Loften was starting in front of him. Coco Crisp played CF his entire career untill a young stud named Grady Siezmore came and took his spot.

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 12:09 AM
From a Yankees fan view, better they get Crip than Michael, a more natural CF who is an OBP machine who I feel is the more reliable player. I think as an every day player he's going to have a break out year, IMO. Time will tell.

I'm EXCITED at the prospect of Alex Gonzalez playing short for the Sox. He's one of the worst hitters in baseball, period. There is no glove in baseball that can make up for his atrocious bat.

A very good baseball day, indeed. Hope these deals don't fall through.
Dooley, you are right that if they aquire Gonzalez, he will be a sure black hole in the nine-spot. But there is no denying, IMO, that by acquiring Crisp, they are making up for their loss of Damon. All things considered, at this point the Sox are not in a legitimately worse-off position than they were last season. With a very good CF, this is a serious team again, for the first time since last October.

Edit: I'd like to add, when was the last time the Sox had a black hole in the lineup that they didn't replace midseason? I am confident that they won't allow that to be a problem for an entire season.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:12 AM
Man, I love when people are this mis-informed

Jason Michaels is a corner OF that is suspect in CF and only played ther this year because a old man named Kenny Loften was starting in front of him. Coco Crisp played CF his entire career untill a young stud named Grady Siezmore came and took his spot.

I love how mis-informed some people are as well. Michaels has played a majority of his games in center; Crisp has not. Do your homework next time. I didn't say who had the better glove, just that Micahels was more experienced. "Natural" was perhaps the wrong term.

CTSoxFan
01-22-06, 12:13 AM
From a Yankees fan view, better the Sox get Crip than Michaels, a more natural CF who is an OBP machine who I feel is the more reliable player.

Possibly. And yet, last year's OBP+: Crisp 119, Michaels 108. Unless Michaels develops quite the power game, he's unlikely to be offensively more valuable than Crisp.

The other key number is age: Michaels 30, Crisp 26. All in all, I'd prefer Crisp, though if the Sox could have landed Michaels with one reliever instead of parting with both Marte AND Mota for Crisp, I'd be inclined to rethink that.


I'm EXCITED at the prospect of Alex Gonzalez playing short for the Sox. He's one of the worst hitters in baseball, period. There is no glove in baseball that can make up for his atrocious bat.

I'm awaiting terms here. Hoping against hope for a Willie Harris deal (i.e., non-guaranteed), or a Pokey Reese deal (one year, not much guaranteed dollars), which would allow for a shortstop competition in spring training between Gonzo, Cora and Pedroia.

If it's a guaranteed contract with real dollars involved, I'm rolling my eyes. If there's more than one year involved, I'm throwing up in my mouth.

CTSoxFan
01-22-06, 12:15 AM
I love how mis-informed some people are as well. Michaels has played a majority of his games in center; Crisp has not. Do your homework next time.

Not according to my math.

In his career, Michaels has played 138 games in center (out of a total of 275). He's also played 91 in left, and 45 in right, so the division between center field and "corner outfield" is about even.

It's true, on the other hand, that Crisp has experience in center field, but is primarily a left fielder. [Edit: just re-read the original post, and Southern BoSox was right: Crisp was a center fielder until last year, when he shifted to left to accomodate Sizemore. Since he spent the majority of his games in 2002-04 in center, you could reasonably conclude that he won't have a horrible time moving back.]

dartek
01-22-06, 12:17 AM
Grrr. I wish the Sox front office had told me they weren't going to compete this year before I bought tix. Do you think they should bother to play the games? The beer vendor will still be open, right? Right?! :-poke-:

I like the Crisp signing, a lot. A lot, a lot...a lot.
Gonzalez. Meh.

bnorris85
01-22-06, 12:19 AM
Im pumped. We did not trade everyone away for lugo. We got a good cf and a ss that only cost us money. He will be replaced soon by pedroia anyways.

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 12:19 AM
I love how mis-informed some people are as well. Michaels has played a majority of his games in center; Crisp has not. Do your homework next time.

Want some Homework?

Coco played his entire Minor league career in CF.
In 2002 he played 31 games in CF, 3 i nleft
In 2003 he played 53 games in CF, 39 in left
In 2004 he played 94 games in Center, 37 in left, and 6 as the DH.
In 2005 he started the year as the Indians CF then the Indians brought in Grady Siezmore and moved Crisp over to left. This was the first year in his baseball career to not play his majority of games in Center.

I win right? I mean I am pretty sure I just proved you wrong in every way.

Oh and Jason Michaels has played 138 games in CF, 140 at other positions.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:19 AM
Not according to my math.

In his career, Michaels has played 138 games in center (out of a total of 275). He's also played 91 in left, and 45 in right, so the division between center field and "corner outfield" is about even.

It's true, on the other hand, that Crisp has experience in center field, but is primarily a left fielder. [Edit: just re-read the original post, and Southern BoSox was right: Crisp was a center fielder until last year, when he shifted to left to accomodate Sizemore. Since he spent the majority of his games in 2002-04 in center, you could reasonably conclude that he won't have a horrible time moving back.]

My math tells me that Michaels has played in center 50% of the time. Crisp has played center 46%. Not as big as a difference as I thought, but still a difference.

SoxFanXL
01-22-06, 12:19 AM
Crisp is a proven prospect... a good young CF, i like it! :) This makes our team a little more respectable in the division.

bnorris85
01-22-06, 12:19 AM
Grrr. I wish the Sox front office had told me they weren't going to compete this year before I bought tix. Do you think they should bother to play the games? The beer vendor will still be open, right? Right?! :-poke-:

I like the Crisp signing, a lot. A lot, a lot...a lot.
Gonzalez. Meh.


Ill buy your tickets...shoot me a pm if you are interested.

CTSoxFan
01-22-06, 12:20 AM
Grrr. I wish the Sox front office had told me they weren't going to compete this year before I bought tix. Do you think they should bother to play the games? The beer vendor will still be open, right? Right?! :-poke-:

I like the Crisp signing, a lot. A lot, a lot...a lot.
Gonzalez. Meh.

I think Theo is trying to start a new tradition: burn a roster spot each year on a Gonzalez.

Last year, Jeremi. This year, Alex.

Next year...Juan? Luis?

dartek
01-22-06, 12:20 AM
OTOH, is anyone else worried David Wells will mistake Coco Crisp for breakfast cereal and eat him?




Well... now I am! :eek:

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:20 AM
Want some Homework?

Coco played his entire Minor league career in CF.
In 2002 he played 31 games in CF, 3 i nleft
In 2003 he played 53 games in CF, 39 in left
In 2004 he played 94 games in Center, 37 in left, and 6 as the DH.
In 2005 he started the year as the Indians CF then the Indians brought in Grady Siezmore and moved Crisp over to left. This was the first year in his baseball career to not play his majority of games in Center.

I win right? I mean I am pretty sure I just proved you wrong in every way.

Fanboys like yourself always win (at least in their own minds).

scull567
01-22-06, 12:22 AM
Which defensive numbers in particular?
I'm still looking for his recent uzr numbers which I remember reading some where but from 2000-2003 he was +2/162 games which is slightly above average but not stellar and doesnt come even close to make up for his nonexistent bat.


The larger point here, I think, is that Crisp and Gonzalez provide you an overall better lineup than Stern and Cora, the two "incumbents" if this trade & signing don't occur. In general, though, I agree that making the trade and letting Cora play short (in anticipation of Pedroia being ready sometime in the next year or two) might make more sense than the A-Gonz signing.

I agree. I say let Cora have the job to start, let Pedroia get some games in at SS in AAA, call him up and see how it works. Hell, even giving him the job outright from spring training is a better choice than starting Gonzalez.

CTSoxFan
01-22-06, 12:22 AM
My math tells me that Michaels has played in center 50% of the time. Crisp has played center 46%. Not as big as a difference as I thought, but still a difference.

Looking at their entire careers in context, I'm OK with the description of Crisp as primarily a center fielder.

What I'm unconvinced about is how good his defense will be out there. We'll see.

dartek
01-22-06, 12:24 AM
Ill buy your tickets...shoot me a pm if you are interested.
I knew I should have used more smilies...stupid dartek, smilies indicate sarcasm. ;)

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 12:24 AM
Fanboys like yourself always win (at least in their own minds).

I guess thats what they call Winners on this site . . . Fanboys.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:29 AM
Looking at their entire careers in context, I'm OK with the description of Crisp as primarily a center fielder.

What I'm unconvinced about is how good his defense will be out there. We'll see.

He has the speed but time will tell how he handles CF at Fenway and how he handles Boston, period. I still prefer what Micheals game projects to be - an on base machine and from what avid Phils fans from S. Jersey have told me when the Yanks were looking into him, a sure glove.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:32 AM
I guess thats what they call Winners on this site . . . Fanboys.

I was being sincere that as a Yankees fan, a day when the Sox get both Crisp AND Gonzalez is a pretty good day. I also meant it when I said I really like Michales and am glad the Sox won't get him. I had no doubt CF would be filled with someone decent (which Crisp seems to be). Alex Gonzalez for ss? I'm ecstatic. So, I'll gladly take this combo.

Maybe if it were Crisp alone I'd be thinking, "Well, damn, they filled CF to an extent, even though I knew they would eventually."

CTSoxFan
01-22-06, 12:36 AM
The only difference I see between Tony Womack and Alex Gonzalez is that Gonzalez may be good enough defensively to add value in that department. That's a wee consolation.

He still isn't sufficiently better than Cora to warrant adding him to the roster, though...and that is triply true if he winds up blocking Pedroia for even fifteen minutes.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:36 AM
Sox losing Marte makes me even more thrilled. I thought it was a steal when the Sox got him (look it up). He's going to be a good one, with a MUCH higher ceiling than Crisp. Again, he'll have to show it on the field.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:37 AM
The only difference I see between Tony Womack and Alex Gonzalez is that Gonzalez may be good enough defensively to add value in that department. That's a wee consolation.

He still isn't sufficiently better than Cora to warrant adding him to the roster, though...and that is triply true if he winds up blocking Pedroia for even fifteen minutes.

At least the Yanks realized during the season that Womack was a mistake. I'm hoping the Sox give A.G. much more of a chance--like a couple of years worth. ;)

He's awful, CT. If you had to name the 5 worst hitters in baseball, he'd fall near the top.

scull567
01-22-06, 12:41 AM
Weren't the Red Sox interested in Gonzalez like months ago right after they traded Renteria? It took them this long to sign him? My hope is that Mazz is just spewing ................ as usual.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:44 AM
Let's take a look at this. The Sox trade Renteria plus 11 million toward his salary, Marte, the best prospect in baseball, and Mota (plus lose Damon) for Crisp and Alex Gonzalez. Just how did the Sox come out on top here?

scull567
01-22-06, 12:46 AM
Let's take a look at this. The Sox trade Renteria plus 11 million and Marte, the best prospect in baseball and Mota for Crisp and Alex Gonzalez. Just how did the Sox come out on top here?

That would suck. I'll wait and see the offical deal before I make a judgement though.

LuckyLopez
01-22-06, 12:48 AM
Let's take a look at this. The Sox trade Renteria plus 11 million toward his salary, Marte, the best prospect in baseball, and Mota for Crisp and Alex Gonzalez. Just how did the Sox come out on top here?
Wait a second. How do you figure that? They either traded Renteria, $11M, and Mota for Crisp/Gonzalez or they traded Marte and Mota for Crisp/Gonzalez. How do they end up trading Renteria, $11M, Marte, and Mota for them?

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 12:50 AM
Wait a second. How do you figure that? They either traded Renteria, $11M, and Mota for Crisp/Gonzalez or they traded Marte and Mota for Crisp/Gonzalez. How do they end up trading Renteria, $11M, Marte, and Mota for them?

Lucky is right. You can't include BOTH Edgar and Marte because they were traded for each other.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:52 AM
Wait a second. How do you figure that? They either traded Renteria, $11M, and Mota for Crisp/Gonzalez or they traded Marte and Mota for Crisp/Gonzalez. How do they end up trading Renteria, $11M, Marte, and Mota for them?

Aren't those the players and the money the Sox gave up to eventually get Crisp and Gonzalez?

Renteria plus $11M for Marte, who in turn is supposedly going to Cleveland along with Mota for Crisp. Gonzalez is being signed to replace Renteria and the $11M the Sox are laying out as part of the Marte deal.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 12:54 AM
Lucky is right. You can't include BOTH Edgar and Marte because they were traded for each other.

I was speaking in terms of what players eventually ended up on the Sox and who they had to give up to get those players. If the Sox keep Renteria, then the need for AG doesnt exist. The player they got in return for Renteria (Marte) is being offered to the Indians in order to get Crisp.

LuckyLopez
01-22-06, 12:58 AM
But by that logic you can say that the Yanks dealt Ted Lilly, Jeff Weaver, and Yhency Brazoban for Kevin Brown. Or that they dealt Juan Rivera, Nick Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Dionar Navaro, and Brad Halsey for Randy Johnson. It doesn't work that way. Johnson/Rivera=Vazquez in terms of commodities. Renteria + $11M = Marte. Marte + Mota = Crisp. If you took it to an extreme you'd have to involve the people Boston traded to aquire Mota.

LuckyLopez
01-22-06, 01:04 AM
I was speaking in terms of what players eventually ended up on the Sox and who they had to give up to get those players. If the Sox keep Renteria, then the need for AG doesnt exist. The player they got in return for Renteria (Marte) is being offered to the Indians in order to get Crisp.
But by that logic Marte gets reduced down to a commidity. The Sox started with Renteria, Damon, etc... they ended up with Crisp, Gonzalez, etc. Marte was just an asset along the way. In all fairness you'd have to involve a lot more people with the Becket deals and bullpen moves, but if you wanted to make it simple it's really Renteria-to-Crisp. Marte's a middle man.

CTSoxFan
01-22-06, 01:17 AM
At least the Yanks realized during the season that Womack was a mistake. I'm hoping the Sox give A.G. much more of a chance--like a couple of years worth. ;)

He's awful, CT. If you had to name the 5 worst hitters in baseball, he'd fall near the top.

I gotta believe that the Red Sox are just grabbing Gonzalez because they need a placewarmer for Pedroia, and for whatever reason they find him preferable to Cora. I'm hoping that if this deal goes through, they'll identify the reasoning.

Worst five hitters in baseball on a consistent basis: Pokey Reese, Tony Womack, Alex Gonzalez, Cristian Guzman, John Flaherty, Corey Patterson. I know that's six, but really, which of these six sucks less than the other five? Had to expand the list.

The real killer is, if the Sox sign Gonzalez, we have two of the six worst hitters in baseball (even if one of them is a backup).

And yet, examining the offense realistically...I don't believe we are substantially worse off now than we were last year.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 01:18 AM
But by that logic you can say that the Yanks dealt Ted Lilly, Jeff Weaver, and Yhency Brazoban for Kevin Brown. Or that they dealt Juan Rivera, Nick Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Dionar Navaro, and Brad Halsey for Randy Johnson. It doesn't work that way. Johnson/Rivera=Vazquez in terms of commodities. Renteria + $11M = Marte. Marte + Mota = Crisp. If you took it to an extreme you'd have to involve the people Boston traded to aquire Mota.

Techincally, you're right.

But when you have a future star in Marte, who never put on a glove for the Sox, and all of this transpires within 3 months, it's safe to say that the Sox lost Renteria, Marte and $11M to get Crisp (who replcaes Damon) and the subsequent signing of Alex Gonzalez. My contention is that when you look at the big picture, these transactions and replacements (plus the loss of a budding star) aren't something to get overly excited about if you're a Sox fan.

The move the Sox made that scares me the most, and which I think will have the greatest impact was for a picher- Josh Beckett - and not offense.

CTSoxFan
01-22-06, 01:21 AM
Let's take a look at this. The Sox trade Renteria plus 11 million toward his salary, Marte, the best prospect in baseball, and Mota (plus lose Damon) for Crisp and Alex Gonzalez. Just how did the Sox come out on top here?

The logical flaws have already been dissected, but how did the Red Sox come out on top here? Easy. They started with 32-year-old Johnny Damon in center, and Edgar Renteria at short. They finished with 26-year-old Coco Crisp (whose OPS+ was superior to Damon's last year, and is likely to improve this year) in center, and Alex Gonzalez at short. Yes, Edgar Renteria sucked so horribly last year that even Alex Gonzalez is an improvement.

Besides, give Gonzalez a year hitting in Fenway, and with Papa Jack's tutelage, and you'll see that .290 lifetime OBP skyrocket.

Maybe even past .300.

CTSoxFan
01-22-06, 01:25 AM
Techincally, you're right.

But when you have a future star in Marte, who never put on a glove for the Sox, and all of this transpires within 3 months, it's safe to say that the Sox lost Renteria, Marte and $11M to get Crisp (who replcaes Damon) and the subsequent signing of Alex Gonzalez. My contention is that when you look at the big picture, these transactions and replacements (plus the loss of a budding star) aren't something to get overly excited about if you're a Sox fan.

Here's what you get excited about if you're a Sox fan: you went from the black hole in center field to an upgrade. That's pretty amazing. And at short, you made no worse than a lateral move: the offense takes a hit, but the defense is vastly improved (and the pitching staff is cheering pretty wildly tonight). And given that you've already upgraded a few positions offensively (1B, CF, 2B) when you already had the #1 offense in the league, you take the offensive hit at short to get a reliable glove.

Kulish29
01-22-06, 01:27 AM
So now that Marte is gone, I guess that means the Sox farm system is no longer teh best!!!11

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 01:30 AM
So now that Marte is gone, I guess that means the Sox farm system is no longer teh best!!!11

:roflmao: :roflmao:

I'm waiting for some of the Sox fans to now make the same Marte injury claims (damaged goods) that some ball-busting Yanks fans were making but they (Sox fans) were so vociferously denying and arguing against.

I'm telling you it's BOUND to happen.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 01:32 AM
Here's what you get excited about if you're a Sox fan: you went from the black hole in center field to an upgrade. That's pretty amazing. And at short, you made no worse than a lateral move: the offense takes a hit, but the defense is vastly improved (and the pitching staff is cheering pretty wildly tonight). And given that you've already upgraded a few positions offensively (1B, CF, 2B) when you already had the #1 offense in the league, you take the offensive hit at short to get a reliable glove.

I'm telling you brother, just read that signature of yours. ;)

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 01:40 AM
I just read about the Benson deal. I take back anything negative about the Sox, Yanks, Theo or Cashman I've ever made.

Imagine being stuck with a team like the Mets and having Omar as your GM?

LuckyLopez
01-22-06, 01:42 AM
Techincally, you're right.

But when you have a future star in Marte, who never put on a glove for the Sox, and all of this transpires within 3 months, it's safe to say that the Sox lost Renteria, Marte and $11M to get Crisp (who replcaes Damon) and the subsequent signing of Alex Gonzalez. My contention is that when you look at the big picture, these transactions and replacements (plus the loss of a budding star) aren't something to get overly excited about if you're a Sox fan.

The problem is that that seems to suggest that there was a scenario where they had Renteria, Marte, and the elusive $11M. Yes, they lost/moved/gave up all those parts on the way to getting Crisp but they were separate movement. They COULD have had Renteria + $11M, could have had Marte, or could have had Crisp. Crisp (in theory) was the path chosen. That there was no direct route to it doesn't make it a more expensive route.

If you move prospect A for prospects B and C so that you can move prospects B, C and X for Player Y that's what it is. The value doesn't becomes A, B, C, and X = Y, its just A = B + C, and B + C + X = Y. And that's the 2nd time in my life I've decided to try and come up with some weird arithemetic forumula while boozing, so I apologize if its off.

The move the Sox made that scares me the most, and which I think will have the greatest impact was for a picher- Josh Beckett - and not offense.

I know what you're saying in terms of what Boston moved, but its just not fair to count against them more than they could have ever had (which is the case in the Renteria/Marte/$11M scenario).

And I agree with you on the Beckett issue, although I think the potential aquisition of Crisp is a huge move in terms of shoring up those offensive and defensive question the Sox had.

NYYBombshell
01-22-06, 01:47 AM
I guess thats what they call Winners on this site . . . Fanboys.


Winners? What did you win?

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 01:51 AM
If you move prospect A for prospects B and C so that you can move prospects B, C and X for Player Y that's what it is. The value doesn't becomes A, B, C, and X = Y, its just A = B + C, and B + C + X = Y. And that's the 2nd time in my life I've decided to try and come up with some weird arithemetic forumula while boozing, so I apologize if its off.


:lol: No apologies necessary. Your example and equations are flawless. Some of my best reasoning have come under the influence. ;)

Saxmania
01-22-06, 02:24 AM
I wanted Crisp, but I guess it was always a pipe dream, as his cost was too high. He's probably a better player than Michaels, but the Yankees could really use Michaels more, as they're now locked in long-term in LF and CF, and they didn't have the prospects to spare to get Crisp. I can't see why you'd play Gonzalez over Pedroia, though.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

noneckwilliams
01-22-06, 05:47 AM
I guess thats what they call Winners on this site . . . Fanboys.

You are not a winner.

38Special
01-22-06, 07:40 AM
I love you SouthernBoSox <3 <3 <3. Your hilarious posts make me smile every day.

His posts are the best. As a Yankee fan i'm happy with this deal. It seems pretty fair for both sides, they give up a good amount and having Alex Gonzalez and Coco Crisp is far from great. Crisp could end up being a very good pick up though

hardrain
01-22-06, 08:02 AM
If the Sox continue the trend of going from Cabrera to Renteria to Gonzalez, it makes you wonder who is next? Enrique Wilson?

As a Yankee fan, I love these deals. Hoepfully, Marte will turn out to be a stud. Crisp certainly has an upside, though. He should compliment the lineup quite well.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
01-22-06, 08:04 AM
Winners? What did you win?

He's the co-American League East champ, the Red Sox marketing department told us so.

YankeePride1967
01-22-06, 08:04 AM
Pretty clear that Theo's announced rejoining the organization was timed with this deal.

I'm very happy that the Sox appear to actually be upgrading CF. Far cry from what we have been thinking for the past month.

I'm sad to see Marte go, though. But Crisp has proven he can produce at the ML level, at a more important position than Marte plays. Here's hoping Crisp contiues to improve upon what he's already shown.

Alex Gonzalez though, ugh. Just give me Cora.

from all accounts, he never really left.

DontHateOnNumber2
01-22-06, 08:07 AM
Isn't Marte regarded a seriously top prospect? A freaking shining star from the Braves' farm system? And it took him AND Mota to nab Coco Crisp? That's crazy...

Archer1979
01-22-06, 08:20 AM
I wanted Crisp, but I guess it was always a pipe dream, as his cost was too high. He's probably a better player than Michaels, but the Yankees could really use Michaels more, as they're now locked in long-term in LF and CF, and they didn't have the prospects to spare to get Crisp. I can't see why you'd play Gonzalez over Pedroia, though.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Pedroia was converted to being a second baseman. My guess is that is his best possible major league position. He's also proved absolutely nothing yet at the major league level. When the Gonzalez deal is publicized, then we'll see how committed the Sox are at shortstop.

noneckwilliams
01-22-06, 08:30 AM
Isn't Marte regarded a seriously top prospect? A freaking shining star from the Braves' farm system? And it took him AND Mota to nab Coco Crisp? That's crazy...

There has to be alot more to this deal. As reported it doesn't sound like something the RS would do.

Prickly Pete
01-22-06, 08:30 AM
I'll withhold final judgment until I see what else is coming to Boston with Crisp, but I'm pretty disappointed if Marte-Crisp is the crux of the deal. It undoubtedly helps Boston in 2006 (especially since Marte was ticketed for AAA this year), but Marte is the type of guy you can build your franchise around. Yes, he's an unproven prospect, but he's the type of player you gamble on. I don't buy the nonsense that Marte must not be that good if the Braves were willing to trade him.


Hopefully, Marte will turn out to be a stud.
How does that help the Yankees? The Indians have a very good young team, and if they add a power-hitting 3B to the middle of their lineup to go along with Sizemore, Hafner, Peralta and Martinez, they are going to be a force to be reckoned with. Or are you more concerned with the Red Sox regretting the trade than you are with how it affects the Yankees?

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-22-06, 08:41 AM
Well Im not going to argue about how good Crisp will be or if he will be betting than Damon or who is the favorite to the Al East or blah blah blah, im just going to wait for opening day and hope the Yankees come out on top at the end. Its pretty cool that there are 3 teams in the AL East that have a realistic chance at winning the division.

BTW, did anybody notice that Andy Marte will be number 1 on 3 team's top 10 prospects list this year? Damn that must be a record or something.

FormerlyKnownAsMHHL
01-22-06, 08:56 AM
I'll withhold final judgment until I see what else is coming to Boston with Crisp,

I wouldn't be suprised if there was someone else leaving Boston as well.

JP22
01-22-06, 08:58 AM
:roflmao: :roflmao:

I'm waiting for some of the Sox fans to now make the same Marte injury claims (damaged goods) that some ball-busting Yanks fans were making but they (Sox fans) were so vociferously denying and arguing against.

I'm telling you it's BOUND to happen.

OK... :)
Though I never denied that Marte might be injured, and I've worried about the possibility. He might or he might not be. When we see the final details of the trade, I think it will be some indication. If the Sox don't get a decent prospect back with Crisp, that suggests to me that they know his elbow was injured and were intending to use him as tradebait all along. Maybe not, but if he's healthy I don't see why they'd give him up without getting something better in return. Maybe they just screwed up.

In any case, this trade certainly isn't a clear win for the Red Sox, but there is something reassuring about trading a prospect who might be in the middle of a collapse for a very good, much more reliable player.

hardrain
01-22-06, 09:04 AM
How does that help the Yankees? The Indians have a very good young team, and if they add a power-hitting 3B to the middle of their lineup to go along with Sizemore, Hafner, Peralta and Martinez, they are going to be a force to be reckoned with. Or are you more concerned with the Red Sox regretting the trade than you are with how it affects the Yankees?

I am more concerned with the competition within the Eastern division.

Saxmania
01-22-06, 09:05 AM
Pedroia was converted to being a second baseman. My guess is that is his best possible major league position. He's also proved absolutely nothing yet at the major league level. When the Gonzalez deal is publicized, then we'll see how committed the Sox are at shortstop.

I understand that Pedroia would probably play better at 2B, but he's played a lot of SS in his time, and given his reputation as an excellent defensive 2B, I would have thought he'd have been at least average at shortstop. Since Loretta is a free agent after this year, I would have given Pedroia a season at SS to see whether he could hack it, then move to 2B if he couldn't.

With Hanley Ramirez gone, and Renteria traded, Boston has a continuing hole at the toughest position to fill besides catcher. If Pedroia can be Eckstein (which seems eminently plausible) after a couple years, then that's a massive step forwards for the franchise, particularly with Crisp now helping hold down CF. Gonzalez is unlikely to be a long-term solution to anything.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

terminator
01-22-06, 09:09 AM
I am more concerned with the competition within the Eastern division.

How does Marte turning into a stud for the Indians help the AL East?

The FUTURE
01-22-06, 09:13 AM
I like this deal for the sox, I bet the D-Rays feel awfully stupid for missing yet another chance at a TOP prospect. I dont really get what the indians were thinking. Why trade away one of your best young offensive threats for a top 3B prospect when you already have very good 3B prospect in Kevin Kouzmanoff ??

This deal also sets up a David Riske for Ryan Langerhauns deal. Im a huge atlanta fan, I would love this deal, ATL's bullpen lacks a closer, but if ATL got Riske (a SU man), and Reitsma can become a solid closer again, then give the 7th and 6th innings too our young guys Devine,Boyer,Mcbride,Foster,Villarreal and Cormier we will be set. muahahahahha



Pretty nice to be a Atlanta and Yankee fan.

ATL and Yankees during the regular season.
The Yankees in the playoffs.:D

noneckwilliams
01-22-06, 09:15 AM
How does Marte turning into a stud for the Indians help the AL East?

From the perspective of a NYY fan it's preferable that Marte be "studly" in Cleveland as opposed to Boston.


:roflmao: :roflmao:

I'm waiting for some of the Sox fans to now make the same Marte injury claims (damaged goods) that some ball-busting Yanks fans were making but they (Sox fans) were so vociferously denying and arguing against.

I'm telling you it's BOUND to happen.

I was thinking the same thing.



I wouldn't be suprised if there was someone else leaving Boston as well.

I would doubt it. As is, it's not a great trade for Boston.

38Special
01-22-06, 09:20 AM
How does Marte turning into a stud for the Indians help the AL East?

As a Red Sox fan, are you telling me that seeing Vazquez or Weaver turn in a great season, wouldnt have made you happy to see?

AnibalTheCannibal
01-22-06, 09:20 AM
given his reputation as an excellent defensive 2B, I would have thought he'd have been at least average at shortstop.

He actually won awards in college for his defensive ability at SS.

2004 Golden Spikes Award Finalist
2004 First-Team Baseball America and USA Today All-American
2003 Pac-10 Co-Player of the Year
2003 NCAA Defensive Player of the Year

And in your post you mentioned Eckstein. Coincidentally, that's who he compares to the best in terms of ability. I'd take David Eckstein on the Sox right now.

I hate this trade if it happens. I'd love to have Coco Crisp. However, I wouldn't even trade Marte straight up for him. I was actually resigned to the fact that Adam Stern would be our CF in Spring Training. I would have been okay with it as long as we made a move to upgrade by the AS break, assuming he wasn't the answer. Losing one of the best prospects in baseball would be terrible, so I'm hoping this trade falls through. Even though, IMO, Crisp > Damon all things considered. I just don't see the point in trading Marte for him, let alone signing Gonzalez to play SS.

38Special
01-22-06, 09:21 AM
I like this deal for the sox, I bet the D-Rays feel awfully stupid for missing yet another chance at a TOP prospect. I dont really get what the indians were thinking. Why trade away one of your best young offensive threats for a top 3B prospect when you already have very good 3B prospect in Kevin Kouzmanoff ??

This deal also sets up a David Riske for Ryan Langerhauns deal. Im a huge atlanta fan, I would love this deal, ATL's bullpen lacks a closer, but if ATL got Riske (a SU man), and Reitsma can become a solid closer again, then give the 7th and 6th innings too our young guys Devine,Boyer,Mcbride,Foster,Villarreal and Cormier we will be set. muahahahahha



Pretty nice to be a Atlanta and Yankee fan.

ATL and Yankees during the regular season.
The Yankees in the playoffs.:D


Did you just compare Kevin Kouzamanoff to Andy Marte?

AnibalTheCannibal
01-22-06, 09:33 AM
I like this deal for the sox, I bet the D-Rays feel awfully stupid for missing yet another chance at a TOP prospect. I dont really get what the indians were thinking. Why trade away one of your best young offensive threats for a top 3B prospect when you already have very good 3B prospect in Kevin Kouzmanoff ??

Kevin Kouzmanoff ? He's 24 years old in Single A ball. Granted he was very impressive there, .339/.401/.591/.992 but it is still Single A. I don't think a guy like that is going to stop Cleveland from getting a much better player in Marte.

Espinosa's Glasses
01-22-06, 09:34 AM
OTOH, is anyone else worried David Wells will mistake Coco Crisp for breakfast cereal and eat him?




I hope not... He'll probably try and kidnap Melky to eat along with him

hardrain
01-22-06, 09:37 AM
How does Marte turning into a stud for the Indians help the AL East?
Um, because that would mean that he would not be on the Red Sox, and the Red Sox are in the AL East with the Yanks (follow the bouncing ball)
I said I am concerned with the Yanks competition within the division, and the Indians are in the Central.

Saxmania
01-22-06, 09:40 AM
Um, because that would mean that he would not be on the Red Sox, and the Red Sox are in the AL East with the Yanks (follow the bouncing ball)


Once Marte has left the Sox, what does it matter for the AL East whether he's a stud or a flop? What he develops into no longer matters to Boston, surely, except for the games they play against the Indians. His value for Boston wasn't what he turned out to be, it was what they traded him for.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

NewEraYanks2527
01-22-06, 09:42 AM
FANTASTIC DEAL...for the Indians.

hardrain
01-22-06, 09:43 AM
Once Marte has left the Sox, what does it matter for the AL East whether he's a stud or a flop? What he develops into no longer matters to Boston, surely, except for the games they play against the Indians. His value for Boston wasn't what he turned out to be, it was what they traded him for.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Did it matter to the Cubs that they lost Lou Brock? Did it matter to the Sox that they lost Jeff Bagwell? Did it matter to the Mets that they lost Nolan Ryan?
What might have been is an eternal concept. I think it applies to baseball as well.

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 09:47 AM
HOLY CRAP! I got a line underneath 38's name! My life is now complete! YES!


But back to the deal. I will judge it once we see what else we get back from the Indians. But it is one of those trades where you are glad to get the player just don't really know if the price was right. Mota IMO had NO role on this team, Seanez, Taveraz, Timlin and now Papelbon are all slated to be in the BP to Mota is no loss to me. So then it is basically Andy Marte for Coco Crisp. Who do you think has more value? I would say Marte because he is such a good prospect. But Crisp is proven and could improve alot. Time will tell whether or not this is a good deal but if we get a good prospect or two back then I like it.

noneckwilliams
01-22-06, 09:47 AM
Once Marte has left the Sox, what does it matter for the AL East whether he's a stud or a flop? What he develops into no longer matters to Boston, surely, except for the games they play against the Indians. His value for Boston wasn't what he turned out to be, it was what they traded him for.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

I don't buy that logic. I mean, if Dionner Navarro developed in the next Johnny Bench wouldn't that make the RJ deal much worse than if he (Navarro) was out of baseball by 2007?

If the Red Sox had a cristal ball and could see that Marte would be an All-star for the next 8 years would they trade him? Isn't part of the process trying to figure out the potential of unproven players versus the known quantity of a guy like Crisp?

Saxmania
01-22-06, 09:50 AM
Did it matter to the Cubs that they lost Lou Brock? Did it matter to the Sox that they lost Jeff Bagwell? Did it matter to the Mets that they lost Nolan Ryan?
What might have been is an eternal concept. I think it applies to baseball as well.

Sure, but it doesn't have any effect on the standings. The Sox don't get a do-over if Marte turns out to be great, nor do they have to return Crisp if he sucks. What's done is done, and Crisp is on the Sox while Marte is not.

The game of 'what-if' is a fun one to play, and important to do if you want to figure out where you went wrong. But Marte's performance now has no more tangible effect on the Sox than it will do on the Yankees in 2006 - both teams will play the Indians the same number of times.

If I swap my Snickers for a friend's Milky Way, it no longer matters to me how good the Snickers tastes. I'm the one with the Milky Way now.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

BeantownYankee
01-22-06, 09:52 AM
Did you factor in getting Coco? Who last year put up higher OPS then Damon AT one of the worst hitting Ballparks?

Lets see what the Red Sox have done so far

Gotten Younger? Yep
Better Pitching? Yep
Better Defense? Yep
Better Offense? Maybe
Worse Offense? Possible

The Offense is still going to score 850 runs and could actually score more then 900 like last year. I just don't see how a team that has improved from last year where they won 95 games isn't going to compete.

Or another way to look at it....

Replaced Renteria & Damon with Crisp & potentialy Gonzalez while losing a few top prospects from the farm

BronxByTheBay
01-22-06, 09:54 AM
The game of 'what-if' is a fun one to play, and important to do if you want to figure out where you went wrong. But Marte's performance now has no more tangible effect on the Sox than it will do on the Yankees in 2006 - both teams will play the Indians the same number of times.

If I swap my Snickers for a friend's Milky Way, it no longer matters to me how good the Snickers tastes. I'm the one with the Milky Way now.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Oh dear Lord where were you during all Beltran threads?

hardrain
01-22-06, 09:54 AM
If I swap my Snickers for a friend's Milky Way, it no longer matters to me how good the Snickers tastes. I'm the one with the Milky Way now.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

But it does matter, my friend, if the Milky Way is rancid and makes you sick, and you spend the next tens years yearning for your beloved Snickers, which was hoodwinked away from you by an adversary:

Here' s some trivia on your lost piece of candy:

The Snickers candy bar was introduced in 1930.

The Snickers candy bar was named after a horse owned by the Mars family.

noneckwilliams
01-22-06, 09:54 AM
best in terms of ability. I'd take David Eckstein on the Sox right now.

I hate this trade if it happens. I'd love to have Coco Crisp. However, I wouldn't even trade Marte straight up for him. I was actually resigned to the fact that Adam Stern would be our CF in Spring Training. I would have been okay with it as long as we made a move to upgrade by the AS break, assuming he wasn't the answer. Losing one of the best prospects in baseball would be terrible, so I'm hoping this trade falls through. Even though, IMO, Crisp > Damon all things considered. I just don't see the point in trading Marte for him, let alone signing Gonzalez to play SS.


Let's say a year ago the Red Sox were in need of a centerfielder. If Cleveland had proposed a deal of Coco Crisp for Hanley Ramirez plus a potentially useful reliever, the Red Sox would have laughed in their faces. Now they're gonna deal an allegedly better prospect (than Hanley) plus a potentially useful reliever for Crisp?

There's much more to this deal.

Saxmania
01-22-06, 09:55 AM
I don't buy that logic. I mean, if Dionner Navarro developed in the next Johnny Bench wouldn't that make the RJ deal much worse than if he (Navarro) was out of baseball by 2007?

It's about perceived (current) value versus actual (future) value. The Yankees didn't know what Navarro would turn into when they traded him. How much they valued him depends not on what he would turn into, but what they (and other MLB teams) thought he might turn into.

If the Yankees decided that there was a 10% chance Navarro would be an All-Star, and an 80% chance he would be an AAAA guy, then trading him was a good move regardless of whether than 10% chance came true or not. On the other hand, if the Yankees make 5 similar moves and 3 of the 5 guys they trade turn out to be All-Stars, then they're probably not evaluating their players very well.

When I play poker, my bet is a good one or a bad one depending on what I know, not on what eventually happens. That's where luck (or external, unknowable factors) come into play. This is why people are evaluated on process above outcomes. If you do the right thing, but it has the wrong result, then you still did the right thing.

On the other hand, if you do what you think is the right thing, and the wrong result keeps occurring, you probably need to review your process. If Lilly, John-Ford Griffin, Navarro, Jiminez, and Halsey had all become Hall of Famers, then the Yankees would have been evaluating their players wrong.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Saxmania
01-22-06, 09:55 AM
Oh dear Lord where were you during all Beltran threads?

During the what now? ;)

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Archer1979
01-22-06, 09:55 AM
I understand that Pedroia would probably play better at 2B, but he's played a lot of SS in his time, and given his reputation as an excellent defensive 2B, I would have thought he'd have been at least average at shortstop. Since Loretta is a free agent after this year, I would have given Pedroia a season at SS to see whether he could hack it, then move to 2B if he couldn't.

With Hanley Ramirez gone, and Renteria traded, Boston has a continuing hole at the toughest position to fill besides catcher. If Pedroia can be Eckstein (which seems eminently plausible) after a couple years, then that's a massive step forwards for the franchise, particularly with Crisp now helping hold down CF. Gonzalez is unlikely to be a long-term solution to anything.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

I see where you're coming from. I just don't see the Sox rushing the kid (and I'm not convinced he's ready for the majors yet), and then making him switch to a position he hasn't played much professionally.

Shortstop is a tough position, but if the Sox can get average to better than average production at every other position, they might be willing to put up with raw defense until something better becomes available.



If I swap my Snickers for a friend's Milky Way, it no longer matters to me how good the Snickers tastes. I'm the one with the Milky Way now.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

All this talk of Coco Crisp has already made me hungry, now you bring this up.

I'm trying to knock the weight off!!!

hardrain
01-22-06, 09:57 AM
All this talk of Coco Crisp has already made me hungry, now you bring this up.

I'm trying to knock the weight off!!!

Now if you trade Snickers for Coco Crisp, you've got something.

Saxmania
01-22-06, 09:58 AM
But it does matter, my friend, if the Milky Way is rancid and makes you sick, and you spend the next tens years yearning for your beloved Snickers, which was hoodwinked away from you by an adversary:

Here' s some trivia on your lost piece of candy:

The Snickers candy bar was introduced in 1930.

The Snickers candy bar was named after a horse owned by the Mars family.

Now that I didn't know.

Anyway, what you're talking about is evaluating resources. If I should have had some way of knowing that the Milky Way was rancid (my friend is a known cheater, or the packaging was dripping nasty stuff) then it was a poor decision. But if it was just a 1-in-20-billion chance that I got stuck with, then it was a perfectly good decision. It just had a lousy outcome.

I work in the commodities trading business. Your decisions are based partly on knowledge, partly on research, and partly on gut instinct. But you never know an outcome 100% when you make the decision. A few trades that go bad don't make you a bad trader if you can demonstrate that you made the right choice at the time. It's handling your information and your resources badly that get you called into the CEO's office.

Oh, and swearing at the support staff. They don't like that at all.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Archer1979
01-22-06, 09:59 AM
Now if you trade Snickers for Coco Crisp, you've got something.

I hit the Submit button and reached for a Nestle's Crunch.

I have NO WILL POWER.

By the way, I told my eight year-old about the trade. He started laughing uncontrollably. "Dad, he's a good player, but his name is messed up."

BronxByTheBay
01-22-06, 09:59 AM
Saxy's right - Marte could turn into Babe Ruth and it doesn't matter for the Sox. What if Crisp becomes an elite CF and helps contribute to a couple of championships?

Everyone knows I was/am gung ho about the RJ deal, and I did not care what Vaz or Navarro were going to do from this point on. All that mattered was what will RJ bring to the table.

hardrain
01-22-06, 10:02 AM
Now that I didn't know.

Anyway, what you're talking about is evaluating resources.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Yes. That's true. And what I was originally saying is that, as a Yanks fan, I hope that the Red Sox did not value Marte highly enough, because I'd rather have him become bonafide with an A.L central team then become bonafide with our division rival. (This rival team just happens to be a team that I despise beyond human comprehension.)

Archer1979
01-22-06, 10:03 AM
Saxy's right - Marte could turn into Babe Ruth and it doesn't matter for the Sox. What if Crisp becomes an elite CF and helps contribute to a couple of championships?

Everyone knows I was/am gung ho about the RJ deal, and I did not care what Vaz or Navarro were going to do from this point on. All that mattered was what will RJ bring to the table.

To me it comes down to whether it's easier/better to have an above average center-fielder or an above-average third baseman. The current Sox model appears to be to go strong up the middle.

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 10:03 AM
Or another way to look at it....

Replaced Renteria & Damon with Crisp & potentialy Gonzalez while losing a few top prospects from the farm

The only prospects we "lost" by that logic are Hanley and Anibal and they were part of the Beckett deal which is not EVEN related to this.

FormerlyKnownAsMHHL
01-22-06, 10:08 AM
The only prospects we "lost" by that logic are Hanley and Anibal and they were part of the Beckett deal which is not EVEN related to this.


I think you should've capitalized "related" not "even"

:D

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 10:09 AM
I think you should've capitalized "related" not "even"

:D

God your fresh, its people like you that bring me back to this board everyday.

Edit: I'm an idiot

BeantownYankee
01-22-06, 10:10 AM
The only prospects we "lost" by that logic are Hanley and Anibal and they were part of the Beckett deal which is not EVEN related to this.
True I should have added BEckett to that list. So it's more accurate to say they lost Renteria & Damon and gained Crisp. BTW I think it's a good move for sox concidering they had to recover.

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 10:12 AM
True I should have added BEckett to that list. So it's more accurate to say they lost Renteria & Damon and gained Crisp. BTW I think it's a good move for sox concidering they had to recover.
In the end the FO realized that Marte would have to go, there was no way wround it. Teams saw our weakness and said "Well we want Marte" We said "Hell no" then they responded with a "Bye-Bye". Coco will be a fan favorite but the Tribe's amazing run in hte next decade is going to spoil it for me.

JDPNYY
01-22-06, 10:12 AM
God your fresh, its people like you that bring back to this board everyday.

What?

38Special
01-22-06, 10:15 AM
What?

I are you is t he only things of tehse sjnrla

TheScooter
01-22-06, 10:22 AM
Coco Crisp

Cocoa Krispes

Saxmania
01-22-06, 10:29 AM
Yes. That's true. And what I was originally saying is that, as a Yanks fan, I hope that the Red Sox did not value Marte highly enough, because I'd rather have him become bonafide with an A.L central team then become bonafide with our division rival. (This rival team just happens to be a team that I despise beyond human comprehension.)

Right. But that's done now. How Boston valued Marte isn't going to change now. And remember this:

Whatever Marte becomes, there was always a chance he was going to become that. But it wasn't certain. It takes several trades before you can begin to say whether a Front Office is doing a good job or not, because each individual trade has a decent chance of not working out at all like you expect (see Weaver, Vazquez, etc.). It's only when a pattern emerges that you can judge a front office.

If I bet my friend that a die roll will come out between 1 and 4, and he rolls a 5, that doesn't mean it was a bad bet.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Wang's Groundballs
01-22-06, 10:33 AM
(whether or not Marte is ready is open for debate, and the lack of a position for him is indisputable).

The first part is certainly true, but having a mediocre player at 3B is no reason not to play Marte.


Loretta...Crisp...Ortiz...Ramirez...Varitek...Nixon...Youkilis...Lowell...Gonzalez. I believe I'd be happy going to war with that lineup. I daresay we won't lose much run production from what we've gotten accustomed to over the past couple of seasons, especially if Lowell makes any kind of a comeback.

You better hope that Snow doesn't get too much love from Francona and that Varitek can hold up.

Snatch Catch
01-22-06, 10:39 AM
Crisp is an excaellent acquisition.

Marte certainly has a higher ceiling, but if you're going to move a highly valuable trading commodity in a prospect like Marte, then you should be acquiring GUARANTEED PRODUCTION.

Crisp is that. He's young, talented,and several years away from free agency. He's trending upward, but doing so from an already elevated position. There are few, if any, questions about his production.

Mota being moved is an INCREDIBLE turn of events for Sox fans, because I don't just think he wasn't helpful, but actually destructive. He's expensive and brings the significant chance of negative production.

Yes, the price was high, but again, if you're going to sacrifice a valuable trading commodity, make sure you get back a sure thing. Crisp is probably slightly below average in CF defensively, but offensively he is fantastic. In a vacuum I'd rather have him at the plate than Damon.

gdn
01-22-06, 10:44 AM
Let's all agree that Crisp in not one of the "best young offensive threats". Seriously. He's decent. Not good, not great.

Wang's Groundballs
01-22-06, 10:46 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, he'd be moving from the second worst hitter's park in MLB, 2003-5 (tied with RFK and Dodger Stadium) to the fourth best. In particular, playing half your games at the Jake reduces HR for a RHB by 14%, while Fenway gives a 6.5% boost. James' projection of 13 HR becomes 16, Shandler's 20 becomes 25. James projects 34 2B, 4 3B, which becomes 38 2B, 5 3B.

Where is he getting this from? Jacobs Field is a pitchers' park, but Baltimore, Detroit, Seattle, Florida, Los Angeles, Shea, San Diego, San Francisco, and Washington are all less favorable to hitters.


(Wow . . . I did that by components, and the 47 point boost in OPS matches my quick-and-dirty rule of thumb for a guy moving from a Run Index of 87 to
110: (110-87)*2 = 46. Good!)

Yeah, except that Cleveland has had a PF of about .95 and Fenway about 1.04. And you shouldn't expect a player's numbers to be effected entirely by that, which is why you account for only half their games being at home by doing 1 - (1 - PF), which puts Cleveland as .98 and Fenway as 1.02.

And OPS+ may have given Crisp the edge, but linear weights has Damon as +17 runs last year and Crisp +11, and it wasn't just playing time because Damon created 5.85 runs per game while Crisp created 5.46. EqA has them as eqaul, but, IIRC, BB and 1B are treated equally which isn't true and BP also doesn't divide PF in half either...

Snatch Catch
01-22-06, 10:50 AM
Let's all agree that Crisp in not one of the "best young offensive threats". Seriously. He's decent. Not good, not great.

He's not one of the best, but he's certainly a fantastic, young, offensive threat.

And he comes with no significant question marks.

gdn
01-22-06, 10:53 AM
He's not one of the best, but he's certainly a fantastic, young, offensive threat.

And he comes with no significant question marks.Really? Hmm... I must be mistaken then. I've never considered Coco Crisp much of a threat.

Jace
01-22-06, 10:55 AM
He actually won awards in college for his defensive ability at SS.

2004 Golden Spikes Award Finalist
2004 First-Team Baseball America and USA Today All-American
2003 Pac-10 Co-Player of the Year
2003 NCAA Defensive Player of the Year


Yeah but he's like Charlie Ward. He won the Heisman, but couldn't even go to the NFL as a QB cause he would have been broken in half, he weighed like 170. He had to go for his next best option, point guard for the Knicks, where he was not much above replacement level.

Dustin Pedroia will get killed taking hits at shortstop within 7 innings on the Major League Level, it doesn't matter what awards he won in college.

It would be awesome if that was even possible

Jace
01-22-06, 10:59 AM
Really? Hmm... I must be mistaken then. I've never considered Coco Crisp much of a threat.

He was 4th in VORP for left fielders in the AL (which is offense only). With the switch to CF he'll be higher, like 2nd or 3rd. He's pretty good and young, he just doesn't walk much.

the_coach
01-22-06, 10:59 AM
All things considered I would rather have Crisp in CF than Damon...glad the Red Sox traded Marte though...he could be scary good.

38Special
01-22-06, 11:06 AM
He was 4th in VORP for left fielders in the AL (which is offense only). With the switch to CF he'll be higher, like 2nd or 3rd. He's pretty good and young, he just doesn't walk much.
VORP isnt offense only.

Here's the AL list of LFers sorted by OPS

38Special
01-22-06, 11:08 AM
All things considered I would rather have Crisp in CF than Damon...glad the Red Sox traded Marte though...he could be scary good.

I definitely would too. They're very similar players but Crisp is several years younger. However, i'm happier with the Yankees giving Damon money than giving away big prospects. For a team with zero corner infield prospects worth noting, Marte was a very valuable guy to have, especially with Lowell's instability.

gdn
01-22-06, 11:13 AM
VORP isnt offense only.

Here's the AL list of LFers sorted by OPSWhere can one find these lists? Baseball-reference?

Jace
01-22-06, 11:15 AM
VORP isnt offense only.

Here's the AL list of LFers sorted by OPS

What defensive metrics does it use? Basic ones like range factor?

Wang's Groundballs
01-22-06, 11:15 AM
VORP isnt offense only.

Nope.

"Value Over Replacement Player. The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player at the same position would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances. VORP scores do not consider the quality of a player's defense."

And why is everyone only pointing out that Crisp was the 4th best in the AL? That would matter more if the Red Sox could only trade within the AL, but since they have the whole MLB as their potential talent pool it makes sense to compare Crisp to AL and NL LFers last year; he was 10th when you do that, which is still very good, especially when it doesn't include defense, but not quite as impressive.

Also, in 2004 Crisp was a below average defensive CFer. He was great in LF obviously in 2005 (+12 using ZR but about -3 or 4 with his arm), so I think he'll be around average considering that and his scouting report, but I don't think it's a sure thing either.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-22-06, 11:16 AM
All things considered I would rather have Crisp in CF than Damon...glad the Red Sox traded Marte though...he could be scary good.

I would too, but we have no prospect hyped as much as Marte, would be too expensive. I really like Crisp

Jace
01-22-06, 11:16 AM
Where can one find these lists? Baseball-reference?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/vorp_player_by_pos2005.php
thats vorp

Prickly Pete
01-22-06, 11:16 AM
I am more concerned with the competition within the Eastern division.
That makes sense, except you didn't say "I'm glad the Red Sox traded Marte because he's going to be good, so this makes them worse."

You said, post-trade, you hope Marte becomes a stud.

I hope Marte becomes a bust -- not only because I'll feel better that the Red Sox traded him, but more importantly because then the Indians won't be as good.

38Special
01-22-06, 11:18 AM
I would too, but we have no prospect hyped as much as Marte, would be too expensive. I really like Crisp

We dont have a prospect as hyped as Marte, nor do we have a positional prospect with the skillset and numbers as Marte. In fact, most teams dont.



Nope.

"Value Over Replacement Player. The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player at the same position would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances. VORP scores do not consider the quality of a player's defense."


Ahh, thats news to me. Thanks.

Prickly Pete
01-22-06, 11:18 AM
As a Red Sox fan, are you telling me that seeing Vazquez or Weaver turn in a great season, wouldnt have made you happy to see?
For the D-Backs and Dodgers sure, there'd be some satisfaction in that. But not for a direct competitor for a playoff spot.

38Special
01-22-06, 11:19 AM
For the D-Backs and Dodgers sure, there'd be some satisfaction in that. But not for a direct competitor for a playoff spot.

Our competition is the AL East. I can't worry about Cleveland. I just need the Sox to suffer :P

terminator
01-22-06, 11:22 AM
I hope Marte becomes a bust -- not only because I'll feel better that the Red Sox traded him, but more importantly because then the Indians won't be as good.

Thank you for your honesty. :) I think all Sox fans feel the same way.

That being said, I think the Herald has jumped the gun here. No other paper/site is reporting this., and personally I find it hard to believe that the Herald would break the story before the Globe. Or Ken Rosenthal.

Jace
01-22-06, 11:22 AM
Nope.

"Value Over Replacement Player. The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player at the same position would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances. VORP scores do not consider the quality of a player's defense."

And why is everyone only pointing out that Crisp was the 4th best in the AL? That would matter more if the Red Sox could only trade within the AL, but since they have the whole MLB as their potential talent pool it makes sense to compare Crisp to AL and NL LFers last year; he was 10th when you do that, which is still very good, especially when it doesn't include defense, but not quite as impressive.

Also, in 2004 Crisp was a below average defensive CFer. He was great in LF obviously in 2005 (+12 using ZR but about -3 or 4 with his arm), so I think he'll be around average considering that and his scouting report, but I don't think it's a sure thing either.

So it is offense only? I get confused with the double negatives, 38 says Vorp "isnt" something and you say "nope", could mean anything. The rest of what your are saying says it is offense only.

4th in the AL matters because 85% of our schedule is in the AL. The competition level there matters a lot more when judging our players. I understand you would judge based on NL players as well when looking at trade options, but none of the 6 LF in the NL that beat Crisp's VORP were trade options to put in CF for Boston, so you might as well just judge by the players that Crisp will be playing against more often (AL players).

keg411
01-22-06, 11:23 AM
I don't see why the Sox would get any more, I think the deal is fair, and I'm a bit disappointed. Wish the Indians held up for Lester AND Marte, but that's wishful thinking.

Crisp is a good young player, who could be excellent. The area that the Indians most need to fill is third base, where all they have is Aaron Boone. Therefore, now the Indians have a top prospect there plus a reliever who's a toss up (Mota will most likely be mediocre, and I could see the Indians spin him off again since they already have a solid 'pen).

Alex Gonzalez is a likeable player, but he's not that good. What pisses me off more is that I like the Marlins and I like Beckett, Lowell & Gonzalez (no matter how good or bad -- they were fun to follow while I was in school there), so I'm going to hate rooting against them. But that's more of my own "personal as a fan" thing (not to mention that I think Lowell is going to be crushed in Boston and Andy Marte may end up having to be a need for them).

On paper it looks really nice for the Sox. We'll see what happens, but I think Crisp will be good.

goin for 27
01-22-06, 11:23 AM
Crisp is an excaellent acquisition.

Marte certainly has a higher ceiling, but if you're going to move a highly valuable trading commodity in a prospect like Marte, then you should be acquiring GUARANTEED PRODUCTION.

Crisp is that. He's young, talented,and several years away from free agency. He's trending upward, but doing so from an already elevated position. There are few, if any, questions about his production.

Mota being moved is an INCREDIBLE turn of events for Sox fans, because I don't just think he wasn't helpful, but actually destructive. He's expensive and brings the significant chance of negative production.

Yes, the price was high, but again, if you're going to sacrifice a valuable trading commodity, make sure you get back a sure thing. Crisp is probably slightly below average in CF defensively, but offensively he is fantastic. In a vacuum I'd rather have him at the plate than Damon.

I agree with this post very much. I would go further, I think Crisp, who has an arm is likely a better defensive player, and clearly much younger.

Crisp has very solid numbers in an extremely difficult hitting park. Going to Fenway, he could be extremely dangerous. (Road OPS of .900 last year) VERY good pickup. I am thrilled to see Marte go, but the Sox got a proven strong Major League player at a tough position to fill. The Yanks had no way to deal for a player like Crisp, or I think that they would have. The Sox will control Crisp for a few years, and certainly I think just turning 26, Crisp will outperform Damon over the life of Damon's contract.

IF Marte becomes the next Mike Schmidt, then of course this is a bad deal for the Red Sox. However, the odds are infintesimal, and the reality is that Marte may or may not ever really make a big impact in the game. The fact that the Braves moved him for Renteria is very telling. That the Sox moved him again, makes me wonder more.

I wish none of this happens, as unlike many here, I still have a healthy respect for the Red Sox, and feel that they will absolutely compete next year. It is silly to write them off.

Saxmania has also been spot on with his thouhts.

I wanted Damon here, and posted that many times. However, no more than 3/30. I don't like the contract that he got, and I certainly would prefer Crisp 100 times over.

Prickly Pete
01-22-06, 11:27 AM
That being said, I think the Herald has jumped the gun here. No other paper/site is reporting this., and personally I find it hard to believe that the Herald would break the story before the Globe. Or Ken Rosenthal.
The Globe has contacts with the Lucchino/Steinberg group. Just before Theo left, the Herald was getting scoops from Theo's side -- remember, they broke the story that he was actually leaving.

Doesn't mean this report is true, but it wouldn't surprise me that they got the jump here since Theo is back in the fold.

38Special
01-22-06, 11:27 AM
I agree with this post very much. I would go further, I think Crisp, who has an arm is likely a better defensive player, and clearly much younger.

Crisp has very solid numbers in an extremely difficult hitting park. Going to Fenway, he could be extremely dangerous. (Road OPS of .900 last year) VERY good pickup. I am thrilled to see Marte go, but the Sox got a proven strong Major League player at a tough position to fill. The Yanks had no way to deal for a player like Crisp, or I think that they would have. The Sox will control Crisp for a few years, and certainly I think just turning 26, Crisp will outperform Damon over the life of Damon's contract.

IF Marte becomes the next Mike Schmidt, then of course this is a bad deal for the Red Sox. However, the odds are infintesimal, and the reality is that Marte may or may not ever really make a big impact in the game. The fact that the Braves moved him for Renteria is very telling. That the Sox moved him again, makes me wonder more.

I wish none of this happens, as unlike many here, I still have a healthy respect for the Red Sox, and feel that they will absolutely compete next year. It is silly to write them off.

Saxmania has also been spot on with his thouhts.

I wanted Damon here, and posted that many times. However, no more than 3/30. I don't like the contract that he got, and I certainly would prefer Crisp 100 times over.


A couple things

1) Crisp's arm isnt as bad as Damons, but it is still a fairly below average arm by most metrics and scouting reports

2) People harp on Crisp's away OPS as an indication that he was hurt by his park, but in 2004 the splits went the opposite direction. I think it's likely a matter of coincidence

ieddyi
01-22-06, 11:34 AM
I definitely would too. They're very similar players but Crisp is several years younger. However, i'm happier with the Yankees giving Damon money than giving away big prospects. For a team with zero corner infield prospects worth noting, Marte was a very valuable guy to have, especially with Lowell's instability.

IS it just me, but I'm wondering why the saxw just didn't pay Damon the extra 2M/year and keep Marte?

That refusal to pay retail just might come back and bite them.

Must have been that mysterious Marte elbow problem

SubwayFanatic
01-22-06, 11:41 AM
Nope.

"Value Over Replacement Player. The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player at the same position would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances. VORP scores do not consider the quality of a player's defense."

And why is everyone only pointing out that Crisp was the 4th best in the AL? That would matter more if the Red Sox could only trade within the AL, but since they have the whole MLB as their potential talent pool it makes sense to compare Crisp to AL and NL LFers last year; he was 10th when you do that, which is still very good, especially when it doesn't include defense, but not quite as impressive.

Also, in 2004 Crisp was a below average defensive CFer. He was great in LF obviously in 2005 (+12 using ZR but about -3 or 4 with his arm), so I think he'll be around average considering that and his scouting report, but I don't think it's a sure thing either.


Am I falling for a trick here, or has Wang's Groundballs really been released outright?

38Special
01-22-06, 11:42 AM
IS it just me, but I'm wondering why the saxw just didn't pay Damon the extra 2M/year and keep Marte?

That refusal to pay retail just might come back and bite them.

Must have been that mysterious Marte elbow problem

At this point, with the reports out and everything, Marte would not go to the Indians unless the Indians were 100% sure that Marte was completely healthy. If that report was brushed off when the Renteria trade was made, it cant be brought up now that he isnt the Sox' problem

chanman7483
01-22-06, 11:44 AM
Well a Red Sox fan would look at the fact he just turned 26, RAKED on the Road last year. Having an OPS near .900 last year and having good numbers at Fenway also. Switch hitting young and can hit. Pretty freaking good player.

Hm, wondering why he did so much better on the road. Cleveland's park factor is pretty favorable to hitters

Good thing for Sox fans is that as a lefty(where he'll be spending the majority of his time), he hit .324 and had a .366 OBP. If he were to bat 2nd in front of Ortiz, I'd have to worry as a Yankee fan.

I'm confident the Yankee's lineup will be superior this year though.

38Special
01-22-06, 11:51 AM
Good thing for Sox fans is that as a lefty(where he'll be spending the majority of his time), he hit .324 and had a .366 OBP.
I dont understand. Is he going to hit more as a lefty because hes on the Red Sox?

Jace
01-22-06, 11:53 AM
Am I falling for a trick here, or has Wang's Groundballs really been released outright?

Maybe he just chose that as his subtitle. But probably not, thats pretty strange. Stats must be pretty offensive to someone.

chanman7483
01-22-06, 11:55 AM
I dont understand. Is he going to hit more as a lefty because hes on the Red Sox?

He's not going to bat more lefty b/c he's now on the sox, but because there are a lot more righty pitchers than lefties.

gdn
01-22-06, 11:55 AM
Maybe he just chose that as his subtitle. But probably not, thats pretty strange. Stats must be pretty offensive to someone.That's weird. He just posted here 10 minutes ago. Hmm.

38Special
01-22-06, 12:01 PM
He's not going to bat more lefty b/c he's now on the sox, but because there are a lot more righty pitchers than lefties.
Based on what? There's more righties in the AL East?

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 12:14 PM
Based on what? There's more righties in the AL East?

Come on 38 EVERYONE knows that there are more righties then lefties! And everyone knows there is a mysterious power when becoming a Red Sox of not facing many lefties. Man you disappoint me.

38Special
01-22-06, 12:18 PM
Using my l33t photoshop skeelz, i superimposed Crisp's 2005 hit chart at Jacobs Field over Fenway. Depending on how high hit the doubles were hit, there are possibly 4 doubles that could have been home runs. It doesnt look like he would have gained anything in RF, and much of his game is speed, hitting the ball the opposite way. He could actually be hurt in power by a move to Fenway, as he is helped by the massive amount of field in LF, as he pokes the ball into the corner and turns them easily into doubles.

S = Single
F = Fly out
D = Double
H = HR

no triples because he hit none

http://tinypic.com/mcd5c5.jpg

not sure what the deal is with the home run in the middle of the outfield, but Stats Inc usually does a great job with these charts, so i'll trust thats just a little error on MLB's part ;)

chanman7483
01-22-06, 12:18 PM
Based on what? There's more righties in the AL East?

I don't have a breakdown of how many lefties there are than righties, just basing that on what I've seen by watching ball games (mainly AL east), and watching Bernie Wiilliams - the vast majority of the time, he is batting left handed. Just checking over a few players in various divisions...

Lance Berkman, past 3 yrs

AB vs Righties: 1182
AB vs Lefties: 368

Carl Everett, past 3 yrs:

AB vs Righties: 942
AB vs Lefties: 355

Not the best case study, but seems to support what I was saying.

38Special
01-22-06, 12:19 PM
Come on 38 EVERYONE knows that there are more righties then lefties! ANd everyoen knows there is a mysterious power when becoming a Red Sox of not facing many lefties. Man you disappoint me.
You're not cool unless you pee your pants

chanman7483
01-22-06, 12:20 PM
Using my l33t photoshop skeelz, i superimposed Crisp's 2005 hit chart at Jacobs Field over Fenway.



Nice! What do the letters stand for, so I can get a better idea of what I'm looking at?

38Special
01-22-06, 12:21 PM
I don't have a breakdown of how many lefties there are than righties, just basing that on what I've seen by watching ball games (mainly AL east), and watching Bernie Wiilliams - the vast majority of the time, he is batting left handed. Just checking over a few players in various divisions...

Lance Berkman, past 3 yrs

AB vs Righties: 1182
AB vs Lefties: 368

Carl Everett, past 3 yrs:

AB vs Righties: 942
AB vs Lefties: 355

Not the best case study, but seems to support what I was saying.

You compared a guy from the NL Central to a guy in the AL Central. I guess you're halfway there.

I added a legend for the Crisp JPG

chanman7483
01-22-06, 12:24 PM
You compared a guy from the NL Central to a guy in the AL Central. I guess you're halfway there.

I added a legend for the Crisp JPG

Huh? I put NL central and AL central to show that the Lefty/righty population was evenly broken up through MLB. This is on top of Bernie williams' AB numbers as a lefty DOMINATING his AB #s as a righty. So this trend is spread over the AL east / Central and NL central.

Halfway there still?

Edit: Thanks for the legend.

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 12:26 PM
You're not cool unless you pee your pants

But I am a fanboy, I don't have to pee my pants as the great BILLY MADISON would say. Wow thats scary!

38Special
01-22-06, 12:29 PM
Damon L vs R ABs
2004: 223 vs 398
2005: 208 vs 416

Crisp L vs R ABs
2004: 117 vs 314
2005: 202 vs 392


So Damon had 1.78x more righty ABs in 2004, while in 2005 he had 2x more righty ABs
Crisp on the other hand had 2.68x more righty ABs in 2004 and 1.94x more righty ABs in 05


My conclusion, Pizza Pockets.

chanman7483
01-22-06, 12:30 PM
My conclusion, Pizza Pockets.

:lol:

The Great Mark Teixiera: Last yr:

AB as a lefty: 470
AB as a righty: 174

Mark Loretta, last yr:

AB as a lefty: 310
AB as a righty: 94

So now the AL/NL West are represented

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 12:31 PM
Using my l33t photoshop skeelz, i superimposed Crisp's 2005 hit chart at Jacobs Field over Fenway. Depending on how high hit the doubles were hit, there are possibly 4 doubles that could have been home runs. It doesnt look like he would have gained anything in RF, and much of his game is speed, hitting the ball the opposite way. He could actually be hurt in power by a move to Fenway, as he is helped by the massive amount of field in LF, as he pokes the ball into the corner and turns them easily into doubles.
http://tinypic.com/mcd5c5.jpg
Looking at your chart, it looks like there are another four or five fly outs at Jacobs that would likely have become doubles or home runs at Fenway.

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 12:33 PM
:lol:

The Great Mark Teixiera: Last yr:

AB as a lefty: 470
AB as a righty: 174

Mark Loretta, last yr:

AB as a lefty: 310
AB as a righty: 94

So now the AL/NL West are represented

MARK LORETTA batted lefty last year? No freaking way!

chanman7483
01-22-06, 12:33 PM
How come there are so few HRs on this? He hit 16 last year.

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 12:34 PM
How come there are so few HRs on this? He hit 20 last year.
The .900 road OPS likely had something to do with it.

chanman7483
01-22-06, 12:35 PM
MARK LORETTA batted lefty last year? No freaking way!


And everyone knows there is a mysterious power when becoming a Red Sox of not facing many lefties.

:2thumbs:

38Special
01-22-06, 12:35 PM
That home run in the middle was an inside the park homer vs Detroit

chanman7483
01-22-06, 12:36 PM
The .900 road OPS likely had something to do with it.

Wow... I thoguht there was a mistake made...THe man was sick on the road.

Mark19
01-22-06, 12:37 PM
If this is true, it is a good move by the Red Sox. Seeing as how only one paper is reporting this, however, I will remain unconvinced.

38Special
01-22-06, 12:38 PM
haha funny how we round up

2005
Home: 728 OPS
Away: 888 OPS

2004
Home: 818 OPS
Away: 767 OPS

2003
Home: 678 OPS
Away: 631 OPS

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 12:38 PM
If this is true, it is a good move by the Red Sox. Seeing as how only one paper is reporting this, however, I will remain unconvinced.
Yeah, everyone is kind of overlooking that. We've got one questionable source and no other announcements of any kinds. Hmmmm.

Johnny O
01-22-06, 12:39 PM
This isn't a done deal yet, although I doubt the Indians would hold up the deal considering it's a long-term coup for them. Replacing Crisp's corner OF offense shouldn't be much of a problem, and Marte would add another championship caliber core player to the young group they already have. It makes sense for the Red Sox too, Crisp is probably just as good as Damon at this point and one would expect him to be better, possibly much better, than Damon over the next four years. Lowell has Marte blocked until 2008, I'm sure they would have much preferred to keep him but don't need to as they are much like we are, they have deep financial resources and can afford to trade away valuable long-term assets like Marte for short-term gain. We essentially did the same thing with Damon, giving him a lucrative contract that will extend beyond his worth.

Signing Gonzalez cheap is a smart move, he'll compete with Cora (who is worse than Gonzalez) and Pedroia for the starting role, it gives Boston options. They can certainly afford to make a mistake with Gonzalez.

Youkilis-Loretta-Lowell-Crisp-Gonzalez should be able to closely replicate the production of Millar/Olerud-Bellhorn/Graffanino-Mueller-Damon-Renteria easily enough. The pitching is deeper and will be presumably healthier. They should be very competitive.

Hildy910
01-22-06, 12:41 PM
IS it just me, but I'm wondering why the sawx just didn't pay Damon the extra 2M/year and keep Marte?

This I agree with wholeheartedly. It burns me that we had to trade a top ten prospect to replace Damon. For me, the question is whether Marte's value is/was enough to justify an overpay of Damon. If yes, this trade is an unpleasant fallout of the mishandling of those negotiations. (Just for the record: I'm a Sox fan who thinks the Damon negotiations went off the tracks. I think they were thinking they could get him for 4/46.) Yes, Crisp is an upgrade, but Damon plus Marte would have been even better, imho. I don't love this deal, but I don't think we have a lot of choices. Wish we'd done the Reed for Arroyo deal long ago (if in fact that rumor had any teeth.)

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 12:41 PM
haha funny how we round up

2005
Home: 728 OPS
Away: 888 OPS

This is Crisp, I assume? Apologies if I was inaccurate - I was going by the figure that's been posted a few times in this thread. Doesn't change the point of my post, though.

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 12:45 PM
If he can put up anything close to a .850 OPS it will be sick.

As for the lefty/righty thing, well I don't get it.

Sure he is going to bat more left-handed ALL switch hitters do, but his overall production is his overall production it doesn't matter which side he hits from as it all equals out to his overall production anyway. He is better lefty but it is errelvant since he isn't as good righty.

38Special
01-22-06, 12:45 PM
His 16 HR victims:

Takatsu
Lackey
K-Rod
Santana
Duque
Buehrle
Linebrink
Rodney
Robertson 2
Waechter
Jason Johnson
Baker
Hernandez (KC)
Sisco
Demaria

Obviously he can hit good pitchers, although I have noticed that all of his homers are line drives that barely clear the wall, and most are to right center-ish. I definitely see Crisp hitting for a 300 average but I think his power will be sapped to some extent

terminator
01-22-06, 12:47 PM
This I agree with wholeheartedly. It burns me that we had to trade a top ten prospect to replace Damon. For me, the question is whether Marte's value is/was enough to justify an overpay of Damon. If yes, this trade is an unpleasant fallout of the mishandling of those negotiations. (Just for the record: I'm a Sox fan who thinks the Damon negotiations went off the tracks. I think they were thinking they could get him for 4/46.) Yes, Crisp is an upgrade, but Damon plus Marte would have been even better, imho. I don't love this deal, but I don't think we have a lot of choices. Wish we'd done the Reed for Arroyo deal long ago (if in fact that rumor had any teeth.)

IMO, the question is whether:

Damon + Marte > Crisp + (whatever money they saved by having Crisp versus Damon)

The Boston Globe estimates that Crisp will make around 20M over the next 4 years.
So let's say the Sox save 25M by signing Crisp as opposed to Damon.

Is Damon + Marte > Crisp + 25M (where ">" implies "better")

Obviously the answer to that could vary drastically if we are talking about long-term vs short term impact.

Dave Visbeck
01-22-06, 12:48 PM
All we need to do now is somehow get Fruty Pebbles to fill out the roster and we'll be all set to start the season.

Hildy910
01-22-06, 12:53 PM
Very interesting way to look at it.


Is Damon + Marte > Crisp + 25M (where ">" implies "better")

So to really boil this down, could you ask whether Marte is going to be worth $25 million long term? (I realize that Damon/Crisp isn't quite a wash here.) If Marte turns out to be the championship caliber player that many project him to be, and we have him locked up long term at cheap money, he's undoubtedly worth that. I think that if Marte pans out the way he is supposed to, they would move the albatross from third base pretty fast and he'd get his chance.

27IsNext
01-22-06, 12:55 PM
While I'd probably want to keep Marte if I were a Sox fan, you have to give up something to get something. I think Crisp will be a very good player once he falls into his prime. Props to the Sox on this one.

Gonzalez? Well, that depends on the type of deal he'd get. Do the Sox see Pedroia as their future SS, or do they want to keep him at 2B? If they do, is there anything else in their farm system that could one day take over the SS position?

noneckwilliams
01-22-06, 01:03 PM
This is Crisp, I assume? Apologies if I was inaccurate - I was going by the figure that's been posted a few times in this thread. Doesn't change the point of my post, though.

IMO the Red Sox would never have dealt Hanley Ramirez and a potentially useful reliever for Coco Crisp. Given that Marte has been touted as a better prospect (how many times have I heard he's the best prospect in all of baseball?) than Ramirez, this is a very un-Sox like deal.

I'd be very surprised if there aren't some siginificant pieces to this deal that we are not hearing about.

38Special
01-22-06, 01:04 PM
IMO the Red Sox would never have dealt Hanley Ramirez and a potentially useful reliever for Coco Crisp. Given that Marte has been touted as a better prospect (how many times have I heard he's the best prospect in all of baseball?) than Ramirez, this is a very un-Sox like deal.

I'd be very surprised if there aren't some siginificant pieces to this deal that we are not hearing about.

Why not? I dont see how they wouldnt have. Everyone acknowledges that Marte is miles ahead of Hanley in prospectdom

NYDCYankee
01-22-06, 01:13 PM
Ok I haven't read this whole thread but I want to throw in my two cents. I like Crisp alot and I do think this makes them a much better team next year and still a conteder. Gonzalez sucks we all know that (except Jeff Weaver), Womack without the speed. I would have loved the Yankees to get Crisp myself. But....

Not at the price of Marte and Mota. I think Cleveland did a brilliant job here and really have positioned themselves well to be a powerhouse for quite a while. If they can pawn off Rhodes for Michaels that would be a coup.

Basically from the Indians perspective they lose Crisp and Rhodes/Bentancourt and get back Mota (replacing the reliever), Michaels replacing Crisp (potential wash) and they get Marte a future stud in the process

I give the Indians a :clap: :clap: :clap: standing ovation.

noneckwilliams
01-22-06, 01:17 PM
Why not? I dont see how they wouldnt have. Everyone acknowledges that Marte is miles ahead of Hanley in prospectdom

Let's say last year the RS needed a CFer. There's no way they would have dealt Ramirez plus a reliever for a good player like Crisp. Ramirez was declared virtually untouchable by the RS. I don't know when they've had a more highly anticipated prospect. It would have taken a superstar for them to deal him. It took a potentially very good/great young starter to move him.

That's why I find this deal so strange. Marte is a better prospect than Ramirez yet they deal him for Crisp?

pedromartinezfan
01-22-06, 01:21 PM
Let's say last year the RS needed a CFer. There's no way they would have dealt Ramirez plus a reliever for a good player like Crisp. Ramirez was declared virtually untouchable by the RS. I don't know when they've had a more highly anticipated prospect. It would have taken a superstar for them to deal him. It took a potentially very good/great young starter to move him.

That's why I find this deal so strange. Marte is a better prospect than Ramirez yet they deal him for Crisp?Different GM(s).

I don't even believe this deal anyway. One source.

goin for 27
01-22-06, 01:28 PM
Hm, wondering why he did so much better on the road. Cleveland's park factor is pretty favorable to hitters


No it is not.


Hitters Parks
1. Coors
2. Texas
3. Arizona
4. Philly
5. Toronto
6. Chicago White Sox
7. Boston
Neutral Parks
8. Washington (Moving to new Stadium)
9. San Francisco
10. Houston
11. Minnesota
12. Chicago Cubs
13. Pittsburgh
14. Baltimore
15. Milwaukee
16. Atlanta
17. N.Y. Mets
18. Cincinnati
19. Oakland
20. N.Y. Yankees
21. Tampa Bay
22. Anaheim
Pitchers Parks
23. Florida
24. St. Louis
25. Detroit
26. Cleveland
27. Los Angeles
28. Kansas City
29. Seattle
30. San Diego

http://www.baseballtangent.com/content/view/50/30/

Smithers
01-22-06, 01:29 PM
Dustin Pedroia will get killed taking hits at shortstop within 7 innings on the Major League Level, it doesn't matter what awards he won in college.


i just read this entire thread to see the reaction, and this was the only line that made no sense to me.

anyway i like this deal because they're staying young. hes only 26 and will equal damons production on both sides of the ball. getting rid of marte might make people think they're throwing the youth movement out the window, but like the beckett deal, they're trading youth for proven youth, which IMO is a very good way to manage a ball club.

and in theory, they've saved $29ish mil on E^30dgar and 52ish on damon, which they can use in the coming years for whoever becomes available, probably on a corner infielder and new pitching.

DiMaggio5CF
01-22-06, 01:30 PM
Very interesting way to look at it.

It may be

Damon + Marte < Crisp + Whatever $25 million can buy

But it's definitely

Damon + Marte > Crisp + $25 million in the owner's pockets.

terminator
01-22-06, 01:35 PM
and in theory, they've saved $29ish mil on E^30dgar and 52ish on damon, which they can use in the coming years for whoever becomes available, probably on a corner infielder and new pitching.

That is not correct.

Getting rid of Renteria represents a saving of 18M over the next 3 years. So around 6M/year.

If we approximate Crisp's salary over the next 4 years to be 20M (like the Globe has done), and guess that the Sox could have signed Damon for 4 years/45M, then the Sox have saved 25M over the next 4 years. So around 6M/year.

That still leaves the Sox without a SS. Obviously they have the money to fulfil that need. Finding the player is a bit harder.

Cold Shad
01-22-06, 01:40 PM
I think Marte has the potential to be a Melvin Mora Type player for the Indians. I think if he is they will be pretty happy. Finding Melvin Mora Type THird Basemen isn't easy. He also has The potential To be Hensley Meulens.

Johnny O
01-22-06, 01:42 PM
Very interesting way to look at it.



So to really boil this down, could you ask whether Marte is going to be worth $25 million long term? (I realize that Damon/Crisp isn't quite a wash here.) If Marte turns out to be the championship caliber player that many project him to be, and we have him locked up long term at cheap money, he's undoubtedly worth that. I think that if Marte pans out the way he is supposed to, they would move the albatross from third base pretty fast and he'd get his chance.

I think you'd also have to factor in the savings of unloading the Renteria contract. Regardless, I think they value the young pitching more than Marte. I agree with whoever mentioned Arroyo for Reed would have been a better move, but that doesn't seem legitimate to me.

NYDCYankee
01-22-06, 01:42 PM
I think Marte has the potential to be a Melvin Mora Type player for the Indians. I think if he is they will be pretty happy. Finding Melvin Mora Type THird Basemen isn't easy. He also has The potential To be Hensley Meulens.

What? He has a much much higher ceiling than that.

jimmykey2
01-22-06, 01:50 PM
i just read this entire thread to see the reaction, and this was the only line that made no sense to me.

anyway i like this deal because they're staying young. hes only 26 and will equal damons production on both sides of the ball. getting rid of marte might make people think they're throwing the youth movement out the window, but like the beckett deal, they're trading youth for proven youth, which IMO is a very good way to manage a ball club.

and in theory, they've saved $29ish mil on E^30dgar and 52ish on damon, which they can use in the coming years for whoever becomes available, probably on a corner infielder and new pitching.


This is a great trade for the Red Sux. Playing CF in Fenway isn't like playing the position in Yankee Stadium or Jacobs Field. Crisp will be pretty good defensively. Offensively, he appears to be on the way up after 2 good seasons in a row. You also can never underestimate the value of a switch hitter who hits solidly from both sides of the plate. Plus, there was no space for Mota in the BOS bullpen. Marte is the major source of debate. The fact that a team like ATL was willing to trade the kid for an overpaid SS makes me wonder what they know that we don't. He also wasn't any good in his short trip to the majors and they let Wilson Betemit play over him the 2nd time Chipper was injured in 2005. Trading Marte instead of Papelbon, Lester, or Hansen when CLE was in the position of strength is a serious victory for BOS.

However, let's not get crazy and think Crisp will match Damon's PRODUCTION of the past 2 seasons. That does a serious disservice to what JD accomplished.

Cold Shad
01-22-06, 01:54 PM
What? He has a much much higher ceiling than that.
ARod Chavez and Mora are the three best Third Basemen in The AL> Thats not bad. Do you think this kid is going to be Albert Pujols? If so the Braves Are not very good evaluators of talent.

scull567
01-22-06, 01:57 PM
ARod Chavez and Mora are the three best Third Basemen in The AL> Thats not bad. Do you think this kid is going to be Albert Pujols? If so the Braves Are not very good evaluators of talent.

Mora had his 1st good year at age 31.

Jace
01-22-06, 02:02 PM
i just read this entire thread to see the reaction, and this was the only line that made no sense to me.

anyway i like this deal because they're staying young. hes only 26 and will equal damons production on both sides of the ball. getting rid of marte might make people think they're throwing the youth movement out the window, but like the beckett deal, they're trading youth for proven youth, which IMO is a very good way to manage a ball club.

and in theory, they've saved $29ish mil on E^30dgar and 52ish on damon, which they can use in the coming years for whoever becomes available, probably on a corner infielder and new pitching.

man read the rest of my post. Remember Charlie Ward? Its all connected man...... its all true. believe it

BeantownYankee
01-22-06, 02:19 PM
IMO, the question is whether:

Damon + Marte > Crisp + (whatever money they saved by having Crisp versus Damon)

The Boston Globe estimates that Crisp will make around 20M over the next 4 years.
So let's say the Sox save 25M by signing Crisp as opposed to Damon.

Is Damon + Marte > Crisp + 25M (where ">" implies "better")

Obviously the answer to that could vary drastically if we are talking about long-term vs short term impact.
I think the savings will depend on whoever replaces Lowe at the last 2 years of that 4 years as Marte would have been cheap.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 02:32 PM
Let's all agree that Crisp in not one of the "best young offensive threats". Seriously. He's decent. Not good, not great.

Bingo. When exactly did he suddenly become Griffey Jr. in his prime?

Hildy910
01-22-06, 02:35 PM
I agree with whoever mentioned Arroyo for Reed would have been a better move, but that doesn't seem legitimate to me.

THat was me--if I recall correctly, it was an early rumor around the Winter Meetings time, and the Sox passed b/c they were waiting on Damon. I think that Theo would have done that deal, but then I think he wouldn't have dawdled so much with JD.

Reed/Arroyo trade link (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002686582_mari16.html)

noneckwilliams
01-22-06, 02:39 PM
Different GM(s).

I don't even believe this deal anyway. One source.

I don't think this trade happens either - unless Cleveland is giving up some decent prospects as well.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 02:41 PM
What's odd is that a couple of Yankees fans are talking him up even more than Sox fans. Crisp = good at the plate (not great)/ slightly below average glove in CF.

Yes, the Sox got a decent player to fill a hole, but they also gave up a hell of a lot. Marte is going to be a STUD. And, if true, with Alex G coming along, it almost cancels out whatever elation the Crisp trade gave some Sox fans (of course the moves aren't related; I'm just sayin').

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by gdn
Let's all agree that Crisp in not one of the "best young offensive threats". Seriously. He's decent. Not good, not great.
Not good?
Last season: .300/.345/.465/.810
16HR, 42 2B, switch hitter.

How do you define "good"?

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 02:45 PM
I don't think this trade happens either - unless Cleveland is giving up some decent prospects as well.

Plus the Indians have to work out a deal for Micheals with the Phils. When a deal is contingent upon another deal with a third team, they often fall through.

I'm hoping it stands as is, especially if the Sox are somehow tying this deal in with the signing of Gonzalez. Otherwise they might use Marte as a chip to get a stud ss, a position that'll be tougher to fill, in my opinion.

Dynasties R Forever
01-22-06, 02:45 PM
Different GM(s).

I don't even believe this deal anyway. One source.


I agree. Let's see it official. At the least, we haven't heard the final details. IMO.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 02:47 PM
Not good?
Last season: .300/.345/.465/.810
16HR, 42 2B, switch hitter.

How do you define "good"?

I agree that the Sox could have done worse. Cris is a nice player, young, and brings stability for years to come at center. But, I also was afraid that Marte would be a stud in the near future. He has a much greater upside than Crisp, though admittedly he's done nothing - yet.

Plus, if trading Marte prevents the Sox from doing better than Gonzalez at short, I'll take this deal (as a Yanks fan) any day of the week.

jimmykey2
01-22-06, 02:50 PM
What's odd is that a couple of Yankees fans are talking him up even more than Sox fans. Crisp = good at the plate (not great)/ slightly below average glove in CF.

Yes, the Sox got a decent player to fill a hole, but they also gave up a hell of a lot. Marte is going to be a STUD. And, if true, with Alex G coming along, it almost cancels out whatever elation the Crisp trade gave some Sox fans (of course the moves aren't related; I'm just sayin').


You're basing that on what exactly? I must say I trust John Schuerholz' and Bobby Cox' judgement more than my fellow armchair scouts. It really bothers me that Wilson Betemit got the ABs instead of Marte when Chipper was hurt the 2nd time. Considering this team played more rookies and in the case of a few like Kelly Johnson, played them through slumps, that says a lot.

scull567
01-22-06, 02:51 PM
Not good?
Last season: .300/.345/.465/.810
16HR, 42 2B, switch hitter.

How do you define "good"?

Exactly. And if can play a good CF (no reason he cant), with his good offensive game that'd make him of the best CF's in the AL.

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 02:52 PM
What's odd is that a couple of Yankees fans are talking him up even more than Sox fans. Crisp = good at the plate (not great)/ slightly below average glove in CF.

Yes, the Sox got a decent player to fill a hole, but they also gave up a hell of a lot. Marte is going to be a STUD. And, if true, with Alex G coming along, it almost cancels out whatever elation the Crisp trade gave some Sox fans (of course the moves aren't related; I'm just sayin').
If the Sox got a "decent" player, then so did the Yanks in Damon. IF IF IF this deal happens, the Sox went from having a hole at their most important position to essentially replacing Damon - and can reasonably expect that this replacement will produce more than Damon over the next four seasons. That's a pretty big deal. Yes, they are losing Marte, but you need to give substance to get substance, and I'd rather hold onto pitching. I think this deal is good now - not great. I'll reserve the rest of my judgement until we see the rest of the pieces.

The Gonzales signing doesn't cancel out anything about this deal. He's all glove, no bat. Same as Cora, IMO. Assuming he's on a 1 year/$2M or something like that, I don't quite understand the deal, but it's fairly irrelevant.

jonnyc39
01-22-06, 02:57 PM
But, I also was afraid that Marte would be a stud in the near future. He has a much greater upside than Crisp, though admittedly he's done nothing - yet.
This I agree with. Marte will likely be great, but if the Sox were going to get anything good at SS or CF, they were going to have to deal one of the big prospects - and I'm glad they are holding on to pitching.

As for SS, it's been most people's assumption for a while now that the Sox will go all glove/minimal bat for at least the beginning of the season. I'm okay with that - but I'll admit that I don't understand the Gonzalez signing.

Smithers
01-22-06, 03:30 PM
man read the rest of my post. Remember Charlie Ward? Its all connected man...... its all true. believe it


ohhhh, you meant physically taking hits as in double plays? i was only thinking of hits as in base hits.

38Special
01-22-06, 03:32 PM
You're basing that on what exactly? I must say I trust John Schuerholz' and Bobby Cox' judgement more than my fellow armchair scouts. It really bothers me that Wilson Betemit got the ABs instead of Marte when Chipper was hurt the 2nd time. Considering this team played more rookies and in the case of a few like Kelly Johnson, played them through slumps, that says a lot.

Betemit got the ABs because hes 3 years older and had no options left. Not to mention he produced very well once he was given the opportunity. I dont see how you can hold any of that against Marte....

TommyK8
01-22-06, 03:36 PM
This I agree with. Marte will likely be great, but if the Sox were going to get anything good at SS or CF, they were going to have to deal one of the big prospects - and I'm glad they are holding on to pitching.

As for SS, it's been most people's assumption for a while now that the Sox will go all glove/minimal bat for at least the beginning of the season. I'm okay with that - but I'll admit that I don't understand the Gonzalez signing.
As long as the Red Sox get Crisp, I think they can afford to have Gonzalez's bat at the bottom of the order. Gonzalez is certainly a free swinger, and his power numbers plunged last year after averaging 20 hr's per year in 2003-2004 while hitting in a bad hitter's park. But Gonzalez brings a very fine glove to shortstop, and he was the shortstop for a championship team in 2003. I remember the announcers saying at the time what a great double play combo the Marlins had in Castillo and Gonzalez. The Red Sox would plug this hole without giving up anything but money, and considering that Spring Training starts in less than a month, I don't think they could have done better than Crisp/Gonzalez.

Assuming the Crisp deal gets done, the Red Sox have gotten much younger, and added to their starting rotation and bullpen while preserving the majority of their minor league prospects.

I think it's interesting that Yankee fans on this thread seem to be higher on Crisp than the Red Sox fans do on the other boards. I don't think the Sox could have done any better at this stage of the game. Crisp is a .300 hitter, a switch hitter in the leadoff spot, has speed, and can play a decent centerfield. He's 26, cheap, and under their control for 4 years. Yes, Marte could translate into something big, and time will tell on that. But this move, if it goes through, signals that the Red Sox are not conceding the 2006 season.

Kangamangus
01-22-06, 03:47 PM
I'm going to reserve all judgement on this trade until I can see what the final product is. This isn't a good or bad trade because it isn't even official yet and we don't know the exact details of which players are going where.

In all reality noone knows at this point in time whether any of the trades the Sox have done this off season are good or bad. It takes years to know the final outcome of trades like these. Just my opinion.

JeffWeaverFan
01-22-06, 03:47 PM
The Red Sox just turned the bust that was Edgar Renteria and a throw in reliever who wasn't good last year and has attitude problems into a 26 year old CFer who has improved every year he has been in the league. They have control of him through 2009 also. I think that's a fantastic trade by the Red Sox. We got a CFer on the decline and paid him big money while they got a CFer who will get better and is cheaper. In fact, last season alone Crisp was better than Damon. I know the Yankees couldn't have matched this deal for Crisp, but I have to say it's a great deal for the Sox.

edit: And Alex Gonzalez is awful. I don't understand that move.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-22-06, 03:55 PM
The Red Sox just turned the bust that was Edgar Renteria and a throw in reliever who wasn't good last year and has attitude problems into a 26 year old CFer who has improved every year he has been in the league. They have control of him through 2009 also. I think that's a fantastic trade by the Red Sox. We got a CFer on the decline and paid him big money while they got a CFer who will get better and is cheaper. In fact, last season alone Crisp was better than Damon. I know the Yankees couldn't have matched this deal for Crisp, but I have to say it's a great deal for the Sox.
.

So we shouldve traded Duncan and Hughes for Crisp, correct?

38Special
01-22-06, 04:06 PM
So we shouldve traded Duncan and Hughes for Crisp, correct?

Yep.

Here's the opposite spin

They pay 11 mil to get rid of Renteria's contract, and they trade one of the best prospects in baseball (with good defense, impressive power, low strikeouts, and high walk totals) along with a fireballer who was the youngest of all the relievers they had under contract.

They trade for a guy who plays a good-to-decent outfield, has a terrible arm, average plate discipline, and marginal power that is tied into doubles (which is benefitted heavily by the cavernous OF in Cleveland). On top of that hes a below average base stealer.

In addition, the money they saved on Renteria's contract is put into a overrated defensive-minded SS who is one of the worst regular offensive players in the league.


;)

Obviously this is as negative as it comes, and Crisp is young. But this is far from a slam dunk

RhodeyYankee2638
01-22-06, 04:25 PM
Yep.


I'd def. do Duncan and say, Henn for Crisp, but a lot of people here overvalue many of our younger players who haven't excelled in anything above AA

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 04:29 PM
Yep.

Here's the opposite spin

They pay 11 mil to get rid of Renteria's contract, and they trade one of the best prospects in baseball (with good defense, impressive power, low strikeouts, and high walk totals)

You want to check the numbers on that 38? He strikes out just as much as Kelly Shoppach.

The bottom line is SOMEHOW the Red Sox turned a huge downgrade into a possible upgrade for far less. And we didn't have to give away one of our arms. Marte is a very good prospect and I am sad to see him go but Coco is a pretty good freaking player, that most likely will outproduce Johnny Damon the next 4 years.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 04:33 PM
So we shouldve traded Duncan and Hughes for Crisp, correct?

Don't you know that you're not allowed to bring sound reasoning to this thread?

RhodeyYankee2638
01-22-06, 04:34 PM
Don't you know that you're not allowed to bring sound reasoning to this thread?

I honestly don't know what I brought. I'm confused by all the we shouldve why didn't we dont trade the farm trade the farm stuff

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 04:35 PM
Yep.

Here's the opposite spin

They pay 11 mil to get rid of Renteria's contract, and they trade one of the best prospects in baseball (with good defense, impressive power, low strikeouts, and high walk totals) along with a fireballer who was the youngest of all the relievers they had under contract.

They trade for a guy who plays a good-to-decent outfield, has a terrible arm, average plate discipline, and marginal power that is tied into doubles (which is benefitted heavily by the cavernous OF in Cleveland). On top of that hes a below average base stealer.

In addition, the money they saved on Renteria's contract is put into a overrated defensive-minded SS who is one of the worst regular offensive players in the league.


;)

Obviously this is as negative as it comes, and Crisp is young. But this is far from a slam dunk

What I've been trying to say, only I wasn't as coherent and concise.

pedromartinezfan
01-22-06, 04:36 PM
Coco Crisp, age 26: .293 EqA, 3 FRAA, 6.9 WARP3
Johnny Damon, age 31: .293 EqA, -4 FRAA, 6.9 WARP3

Crisp is entering his prime.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-22-06, 04:40 PM
Coco Crisp, age 26: .293 EqA, 3 FRAA, 6.9 WARP3
Johnny Damon, age 31: .293 EqA, -4 FRAA, 6.9 WARP3

Crisp is entering his prime.

Only thing I would be worried about is that he has played 171 our of his 300 games as a leadoff hitter and has only posted a .313 OBP. I assume Francona will attempt to use him as a leadoff?

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 04:40 PM
Only thing I would be worried about is that he has played 171 our of his 300 games as a leadoff hitter and has only posted a .313 OBP. I assume Francona will attempt to use him as a leadoff?

Whatever Theo and Larry tell him to do, which is probably hit Him lead-off.

Jersey Yankee
01-22-06, 04:45 PM
Only thing I would be worried about is that he has played 171 our of his 300 games as a leadoff hitter and has only posted a .313 OBP. I assume Francona will attempt to use him as a leadoff?
How'd you come up with the .313 OBP? He had .345 in 2005 and is a career .332.

http://baseball-reference.com/c/crispco01.shtml

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 04:50 PM
How'd you come up with the .313 OBP? He had .345 in 2005 and is a career .332.

http://baseball-reference.com/c/crispco01.shtml

He's talking about as a leadoff hitter, where he'd most likely end up if he comes to the Sox.

Look at "By batting order"

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6983&type=batting3

RhodeyYankee2638
01-22-06, 04:51 PM
How'd you come up with the .313 OBP? He had .345 in 2005 and is a career .332.

http://baseball-reference.com/c/crispco01.shtml

You don't read posts too often, do you

Jersey Yankee
01-22-06, 04:52 PM
Coco Crisp, age 26: .293 EqA, 3 FRAA, 6.9 WARP3
Johnny Damon, age 31: .293 EqA, -4 FRAA, 6.9 WARP3

Crisp is entering his prime.
Only problem now is that he's in the belly of the beast. The hot seat.

I'd like to see what he's done, but I still wouldn't discount Damon. I'd have to see what Coco does in October also.

JeffWeaverFan
01-22-06, 05:00 PM
So we shouldve traded Duncan and Hughes for Crisp, correct?
Incorrect. I said the Yankees could not have matched this deal because we did not just trade a bust of a player for a top 10 prosect. The fact is the Red Sox made a great trade to get Marte by get ridding of the bust that was Renteria. They pretty much traded Renteria, cash, and Mota for a 26 year old great CFer. Maybe they should have kept Marte and tried to move him to SS, but I'm a big Coco Crisp fan and think he's going to continue to improve.

38Special
01-22-06, 05:01 PM
You want to check the numbers on that 38? He strikes out just as much as Kelly Shoppach.

The bottom line is SOMEHOW the Red Sox turned a huge downgrade into a possible upgrade for far less. And we didn't have to give away one of our arms. Marte is a very good prospect and I am sad to see him go but Coco is a pretty good freaking player, that most likely will outproduce Johnny Damon the next 4 years.

83 Ks in 460 PAs
vs
116 Ks in 420 PAs.

Oh SouthernBoSox, you cad ;)

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 05:03 PM
83 Ks in 460 PAs
vs
116 Ks in 420 PAs.

Oh SouthernBoSox, you cad ;)
Ha...

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 05:11 PM
83 Ks in 460 PAs
vs
116 Ks in 420 PAs.

Oh SouthernBoSox, you cad ;)

Of course that is just looking at 2005,
(I don't have the PA numbers so this may be pretty skewed)

Marte
A-114
A-109
AA-105
AAA- 83

Kelly
A-112
AA-83
AAA-138
AAA-116

Ok he may not strike out quite as much as Kelly but to say "low strike-outs" is just not accurate. He strikes-out alot.

38Special
01-22-06, 05:15 PM
You don't have the PA numbers? Add AB, BB, and SF.

I'm sure you dont want the PA numbers because it wouldnt help your point ;)

For a kid who has been among the youngest in each league hes performed in, those strikeout totals are incredibly impressive.

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 05:18 PM
You don't have the PA numbers? Add AB, BB, and SF.

I'm sure you dont want the PA numbers because it wouldnt help your point ;)

For a kid who has been among the youngest in each league hes performed in, those strikeout totals are incredibly impressive.

Then I guess Dustin Pedroia must be some kind of god! ;)

38Special
01-22-06, 06:00 PM
Then I guess Dustin Pedroia must be some kind of god! ;)

a 22 year old in AA versus a 19 year old in AA. Pedroia is a very good hitter so far though.

Yankees1962
01-22-06, 06:10 PM
Incorrect. I said the Yankees could not have matched this deal because we did not just trade a bust of a player for a top 10 prosect. The fact is the Red Sox made a great trade to get Marte by get ridding of the bust that was Renteria. They pretty much traded Renteria, cash, and Mota for a 26 year old great CFer. Maybe they should have kept Marte and tried to move him to SS, but I'm a big Coco Crisp fan and think he's going to continue to improve.
Please, Crisp is a good player, but let's not attach the word "great" to him yet. Also, Crisp plays LF much better than he did CF.

Mystic Merlyn
01-22-06, 06:28 PM
I like this deal. It fills a need for now and the future-the Sox upgraded their CF slot IMO. I really like Marte, and I hate to trade him, but you have to trade value to get value. Mota was a throw-in, and although I can see him having a solid season, I think getting Crisp was worth it.

EDIT-The Sox upgrade offensively at CF, but probably downgrade defensively (Crisp is a much better defensive LF, IIRC).

SouthernBoSox
01-22-06, 06:31 PM
a 22 year old in AA versus a 19 year old in AA. Pedroia is a very good hitter so far though.

Huh? Dustin was 21 last year in AA, and Dustin was the second YOUNGEST player in IL last year. The youngest? You guessed it Andy Marte.

YankeePride1967
01-22-06, 06:35 PM
This is a good deal for Boston with the mindset that Damon was gone. I think (overall cost and this is subjective as player ability is just as much a cost to me as the $$$) I would have signed Damon (assuming the rumor someone earlier said that Damon would have signed for 4/46, but that's not a hard fact) and kept Marte and Mota. Someone mentioned Boston's payroll was at $116 million which leaves them $19 million to match their 2005 payroll. But since Boston CHOSE not to re-sign Damon and it's now 1/22, I think Boston did a very good job.

justinvarnes
01-22-06, 06:43 PM
Crisp is a good hitter, certainly not great. He could grow into a good leadoff hitter, however. In that respect, it's a good move to put a solid young body in CF and leadoff.

I think in the long term, it will be an upgrade over Damon. But there are still questions to be answered in terms of his defensive ability in CF and his ability to blossom into the hitter he COULD be. In 2-3 years, this trade will either look great or so-so.

Either way, the Sox have filled their holes with decent players (assuming they get both Crisp and Gonzalez). They are ready to start the season with a good squad and are better than they were two weeks ago.

But let's not get carried away and think that Crisp is the second coming of...errr...Johnny Damon (the 2001-2004 version).

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 06:44 PM
I like this deal. It fills a need for now and the future-the Sox upgraded their CF slot IMO. I really like Marte, and I hate to trade him, but you have to trade value to get value. Mota was a throw-in, and although I can see him having a solid season, I think getting Crisp was worth it.

EDIT-The Sox upgrade offensively at CF, but probably downgrade defensively (Crisp is a much better defensive LF, IIRC).

We wouldn't expect you not to like it. ;)

If these move happen, at best, from 2005-2006, the Sox have equalled bat production at CF (I still think Damon brings much more to the table - especially at leadoff) and have weakened defensively there. Granted, he is younger and cheaper. At the same time they've lost what Sox fans themselves have called, "The best damn prospect in all of baseball!"

At short, could the Sox possibly do worse than Alex Gonzalez? Renteria will look like a combination of A-Rod, Mark Belanger and Tejada in comparison.

I love these moves as a whole

Mystic Merlyn
01-22-06, 06:45 PM
We wouldn't expect you not to like it. ;)

If these move happen, at best, from 2005-2006, the Sox have equalled bat production at CF (I still think Damon brings much more) and have weakened defensively there. At the same time they've lost what Sox fans themselves have called, "The best damn prospect in all of baseball!"

At short, could the Sox possibly do worse than Alex Gonzalez? Renteria will look like a combination of A-Rod, Mark Belanger and Tejada in comparison.

I love these moves as a whole.

Go back in the Sox thread, where I had the same stance on Crisp. Also, go back to where I denounced the Arroyo signing.

But wait, I'm just a fanboy.

Dooley Womack
01-22-06, 06:49 PM
Go back in the Sox thread, where I had the same stance on Crisp. Also, go back to where I denounced the Arroyo signing.

But wait, I'm just a fanboy.
What are your impressions of Marte and Alex Gonzalez? (Nothing up my sleeve, I'm just curious)