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NDBoston
01-28-06, 11:16 AM
Anyone interested should take a look at Verducci's article in this weeks SI.

An interesting point raised "Epstein didn't like the idea of having four of the eight every-day players (Damon, Renteria, Varitek and Ramirez) locked in at a combined $50 million per year through 2008 while aging through their thirties."

I take this to mean JD wasn't going to come back unless he agreed to take alot less than he could get with another team.

I agree the Red Sox need to get young, I've said so before. How much of the offense slowing down in September was fatigue?

Much as I hated to see Damon go and hate to see them give up their best prospect, I like the direction they are going in.


The organizational philosophy is very clear now.

The Red Sox FO won't pay too much for aging veterans They will overpay somewhat when necessary for cheaper players who have 2-3 years ML experience and may be approaching the prime of their career (even for blue chip major league-ready prospects...see Beckett and Crisp trades) while trying to maintain payroll flexibility for free agent signings and mid season trades in any given year.

The risk is in the projection of the young players trajectory vs the blue chip prospect potential vs maintaining the proven track record of the higher paid veteran. The Sox appear to be taking the middle ground....not betting that the farm will save them on players who have never sustaained a full major league season, but also not banking on established veterans who will likely decline and clog up payroll....Betting instead on "emerging" talent...players that have a few years experience under their belt, to help mitigate the risk.

Seems like a plan, as much as I like when they sign the big name guys (and they can afford to), this seems like a prudent long term strategy. We won't know for a few years if it works, assuming they stay with it. At least we will see some interesting younger players.

A good trade and a worthy experiment in organizational philosophy...as long as they continue winning. Red Sox fans will be watching...and waiting to pounce if it doesn't work. It's what we all do to feel good about ourselves.

(Thanks WSD2)

Archer1979
01-28-06, 11:30 AM
According the RedSox.com, in trades this off-season, the Sox have given up:

Given Up:
Edgar Renteria
Doug Mirabelli
Hanley Ramirez
Anibal Sanchez
Kelly Shoppach
Jesus Delgado
Harvey Garcia
either a PTBNL or cash depending on Mota
a bunch of cash in the Renteria deal
either a PTBNL or cash in the Van Buren deal

Received:
Josh Beckett
Coco Crisp
Mark Loretta
Mike Lowell
David Riske
Josh Bard
Jermaine Van Buren

Spin Offs:
Andy Marte
Guillermo Mota


Taken by itself, the Crisp deal doesn't knock me out. It helps 2006 tremendously, but 2007 and beyond it could be a net loss. But Mike Boddicker for Brady Anderson and Curt Schilling was the same thing in 1988, and I loved that deal at the time.

In aggregate, the trades tend to be in favor of the Sox, with cash being an equalizer.

Including the free agents coming and going in the off-season, I'd say that this team is pretty much where it was in 2005 if they sign Alex Gonzalez (his glove and weak bat make up for E-Rent's bat and weak fielding).

This team is going to hinge on three things:

Can Mike Lowell regain his swing?
Can the starting rotation stay healthy and effective?
Is Keith Foulke in 2006 the Keith Foulke of 2004 or 2005?

noneckwilliams
01-28-06, 11:33 AM
According the RedSox.com, in trades this off-season, the Sox have given up:

?

I don't think the RS are done. I still think they'll look to deal a starter for another OFer and I'm not convinced that Manny will definitely be in Boston next year.

They seem willing to take risks.

ieddyi
01-28-06, 11:40 AM
The organizational philosophy is very clear now.

The Red Sox FO won't pay too much for aging veterans They will overpay somewhat when necessary for cheaper players who have 2-3 years ML experience and may be approaching the prime of their career (even for blue chip major league-ready prospects...see Beckett and Crisp trades) while trying to maintain payroll flexibility for free agent signings and mid season trades in any given year.

The risk is in the projection of the young players trajectory vs the blue chip prospect potential vs maintaining the proven track record of the higher paid veteran. The Sox appear to be taking the middle ground....not betting that the farm will save them on players who have never sustaained a full major league season, but also not banking on established veterans who will likely decline and clog up payroll....Betting instead on "emerging" talent...players that have a few years experience under their belt, to help mitigate the risk.

Seems like a plan, as much as I like when they sign the big name guys (and they can afford to), this seems like a prudent long term strategy. We won't know for a few years if it works, assuming they stay with it. At least we will see some interesting younger players.

A good trade and a worthy experiment in organizational philosophy...as long as they continue winning. Red Sox fans will be watching...and waiting to pounce if it doesn't work. It's what we all do to feel good about ourselves.

(Thanks WSD2)

The organizational philosophy is very clear now.

Interesting that the philosophy goes counter to the Renteria and Varitek signings of just last year- both Theo endorsed moves
I think the organizational philosophy remains to be seen. The moves this offseason lacked cohesion. Maybe now that Theo is the phantom of the Opera no longer that may change. How does AGon fit into the new philosophy


.Betting instead on "emerging" talent...players that have a few years experience under their belt, to help mitigate the risk.

You're basing this on what?, the signing of Crisp? Doesn't giving up Marte to get Crisp mitigate that. How does offering Damon 4/40 fit into the "new" philosophy.

Fine, they want to give up their financial advantage and refuse to pay retail for anything, let's see how that works out.

Manny was an established veteran when they signed him right??

Archer1979
01-28-06, 11:45 AM
I don't think the RS are done. I still think they'll look to deal a starter for another OFer and I'm not convinced that Manny will definitely be in Boston next year.

They seem willing to take risks.

If I'm Theo, Clement and Wells are still on the block. The Sox still need a frontline starter. If the last ten years have taught me anything is that you need to go three quality pitchers deep in the rotation if you want to win the World Series.

My feeling on Manny is that he stays. The more I look at his trade request, the more I think it was about money. The only way he could get those last two option years picked up is via trade. I'm guessing the domestic problem has cooled down somewhat, so I think he's a Red Sox for 2006.

NDBoston
01-28-06, 11:54 AM
The organizational philosophy is very clear now.

Interesting that the philosophy goes counter to the Renteria and Varitek signings of just last year- both Theo endorsed moves
I think the organizational philosophy remains to be seen. The moves this offseason lacked cohesion. Maybe now that Theo is the phantom of the Opera no longer that may change. How does AGon fit into the new philosophy


.Betting instead on "emerging" talent...players that have a few years experience under their belt, to help mitigate the risk.

You're basing this on what?, the signing of Crisp? Doesn't giving up Marte to get Crisp mitigate that. How does offering Damon 4/40 fit into the "new" philosophy.

Fine, they want to give up their financial advantage and refuse to pay retail for anything, let's see how that works out.

Manny was an established veteran when they signed him right??

Ramirez was signed by Duquette, long before the new ownership came in.

I'm not saying this philosophy is absolute, but by and large that's what Theo and company want to do.

ShaneTravis
01-28-06, 12:35 PM
That's the $11 million question, and the beauty of it is that it can't be answered for a long time. This debate will go on for a long time. Marte is 22 and projects to play this year in AAA. He, like many other highly touted prospects, could be a star. Or, he may not. Only time will tell.

The time frame is going to be a lot shorter than you think.
July 1st over/under? On Marte starting third base for the Indians in 2006?
The debate on whether this trade hurt or helped the Sox will be determined in the future. But, with Boone at third I would reason they call up Marte by July.

TommyK8
01-28-06, 01:15 PM
But it is consistent with their other decisions to let some of their players who were getting into their 30's go. They let Pedro go, they let Mueller go, they let Millar go, and they traded Nomar, all in less than 1.5 years.

Pedro was not let go because he was "into his 30's" it was the mets offering him the extra year- an offer NO ONE else thinks about making- that sealed his departure- if the MEts only go 3 years he stays a sawx. Millar flat out sucked- age not a factor there. Mueller- I think they will miss him this year very much. Nomar- had nothing to do with age- it was all the other surrounding issues- injury/sulking etc.

It's the almsot anal insistence that Damon was worth 4/40 but was clearly outrageous at 4/46 that seems like a reach. Look at the signings the last off season and tell me again how their xray value machine is infallible. There is always chance involved when you're dealing with human aging/progression/regression. The problem comes in putting too much reliance on Van like numbers.
I also don't get the glee with the greatly reduced payroll. The sawx haven't been held back monetarily that I'm aware of. They can outbid everyone except the Yanks for players and that's not gonna change.
I agree that Crisp was probably as good as they're gonna do ONCE they let Damon go. It's the logic up to that point that I have trouble with.

(Comments are directed at the sawx FO- not you personally
I was trying to offer an explanation of the front office's decision regarding Damon and other players. I don't necessarily agree with everything. But I am coming at this from a bias. That bias is that I do get emotionally attached to players. I loved Johnny Damon. So I would have given him an extra $5-6 million simply because it's not just about wins and losses for me. I wanted the guy to remain a Red Sox. And I'm going to miss Kevin Millar, too. I don't forget that it was his squeezing out 2 key walks that were instrumental in the comebacks in Game 4 and 5 of the 2004 ALCS. It was his pinch runner (Dave Roberts both times) that scored the tying run in both games.

However, this front office distances themselves from emotion and they don't fall in love with players. They know the fans will get over it, and they will sell out each home game regardless of who they part with and who they bring in. And this ownership's track record is pretty damn good thus far.

As for Damon, I really believe the Red Sox took a pass on him because they didn't like his play last year from August 1 on, when he hit only .267 over the final 50 games and looked a step slower in the field. I think it was because he was beat up from crashing into walls repeatedly, but I think that is what made them think that he was going to go into decline. The Red Sox front office is not infallable, and time will tell if the decisions they have made are in the long term best interests of the team.

lurkerMctroll
01-28-06, 01:22 PM
The organizational philosophy is very clear now.

Interesting that the philosophy goes counter to the Renteria and Varitek signings of just last year- both Theo endorsed moves
I think the organizational philosophy remains to be seen. The moves this offseason lacked cohesion. Maybe now that Theo is the phantom of the Opera no longer that may change. How does AGon fit into the new philosophy


.Betting instead on "emerging" talent...players that have a few years experience under their belt, to help mitigate the risk.

You're basing this on what?, the signing of Crisp? Doesn't giving up Marte to get Crisp mitigate that. How does offering Damon 4/40 fit into the "new" philosophy.

Fine, they want to give up their financial advantage and refuse to pay retail for anything, let's see how that works out.

Manny was an established veteran when they signed him right??

Boston didn't sign crisp

they offered Damon 4/40 due to the fact that very few options were out there to replace him. They did the same with Tek, set a price that they will go to (a high figure) hope it works out and move on if it doesn't.

Manny was signed a while back.

If they pick up A-Gon it will be for 2 years max. Most reports say Boston isn't willing to go more than 1 though.

Renteria was the only good SS to be on the market for several years (once again paying a lot for pieces that are hard to find.

Marte (who I like) was traded along with Mota (savings of 2 mil) and SHop (who I also still like) for Crisp (a 27 year old controlled for 4 years, who I also like) Riske (a pretty good arm) and Bard (ehh)

I'd say, not going hard after Konerko (a pos. they needed help at) and going with cheaper internal offers. Passing up on Milwood and not budging from the 40 mil figure for Damon suggest that Boston is sticking to their plan.

But hell you're going to ignore all that anyway.

ieddyi
01-28-06, 01:38 PM
Boston didn't sign crisp

they offered Damon 4/40 due to the fact that very few options were out there to replace him. They did the same with Tek, set a price that they will go to (a high figure) hope it works out and move on if it doesn't.

Manny was signed a while back.

If they pick up A-Gon it will be for 2 years max. Most reports say Boston isn't willing to go more than 1 though.

Renteria was the only good SS to be on the market for several years (once again paying a lot for pieces that are hard to find.

Marte (who I like) was traded along with Mota (savings of 2 mil) and SHop (who I also still like) for Crisp (a 27 year old controlled for 4 years, who I also like) Riske (a pretty good arm) and Bard (ehh)

I'd say, not going hard after Konerko (a pos. they needed help at) and going with cheaper internal offers. Passing up on Milwood and not budging from the 40 mil figure for Damon suggest that Boston is sticking to their plan.

But hell you're going to ignore all that anyway.


But hell you're going to ignore all that anyway

Right you are, Sir, as the points you attempt don't relate to my post or the post I was responding to

Haveagoooodday

lurkerMctroll
01-28-06, 02:07 PM
But hell you're going to ignore all that anyway

Right you are, Sir, as the points you attempt don't relate to my post or the post I was responding to

Haveagoooodday

True it wasn't as if you were wrong or overstated these issues:

Manny
"Signing of Crisp"
The Alex Gonzalez issue.

It seems the big issue you have is that you believe that Boston is not trying to operate at a smaller budget by getting cost controlled players. To confirm this: You point out the Renteria and Veritek deals.

To that I say: While Boston is acting with more restraint it is clear that they are willing to sign players at positions of need at premium priced if there are few options available to them. However, while they are willing to "break the bank" in these cases they still operate under a budget. The Damon example would fall under this. They set a ceiling for Damon and stuck to it, despite a fair share of public pressure.

Lets look at who has left Boston and who has come in this season:

Left:
Hanley- good prospect, controlled for 6 years, age early 20s
Sanchez- even better prospect controlled for 6 years, early 20s
Marte- Even better prospect, 6 years, 22 years old
Harvey Garcia- prospect, 6 years, early 20s
Bill Mueller- FA, mid 30s
Kevin Millar- FA, mid 30s
Shoppach- solid prospect, 6 years, 26 on opening day
Damon- FA, 32 on opening day
Belli- traded, mid 30s
Renteria- traded plus 8 mil-11 mil, early 30s

Came
Beckett-26, controlled 2 years
Crisp-26 Controlled 4 years
Riske- 29 as of opening day
Bard- 27 controlled 2 years
Loretta- 34 , FA after this season
Seanez- 37
Tavarez- 32
A-Gon maybe- stop gap: at best 1 season at worst 2 seasons

Most of the players Boston has aquired this off season are younger than 30. Several of them are controlled for 2 years plus. Beckett will be signed long term and thus negate some of that value.

The moves Boston has made this season are Atypical traditional Red Sox moves. In the past they would have offered Konerko 65 million and given Damon 50 mil.

I don't even understand why you brought A-Gone up since he isn't even a member of the team yet. However, if you think Boston is going to be shelling out big bucks for him, you are mistaken.

Johnny O
01-28-06, 08:00 PM
While I was never a fan of bringing Damon to NY, I have to object to this suddenly popular notion that Damon is overrated/is easily replaceable. This guy hit .330 last year before getting banged up. Even with all the "BA is overrated" people around, that's damn good no matter how you slice it. To think he will fall off offensively because he's leaving Fenway completely UNDERrates his talent. The major question will be can he cover CF well for the next 2 seasons. Otherwise, give the guy some credit.


As far as the trade goes, it's a win for the Sox. They got a decent arm to replace the one they traded away. They got a solid replacement for Damon, although I don't think he's on JD's level offensively. There's no evidence to support the notion Shoppach will ever hit ML pitching even on Bard's level.

You can cite the first half of the 2005 as proof of his value, I'll cite the broader sample size of his career OBP of .353 and career OPS of .784, the size and length of the contract, the period of his career the contract covers and feel very comfortable calling him overrated. He's a good player, but not even close to great (that would be Bernie, who is just short of being a HOFer), and I give him credit for being a good and durable player.

Crisp had a slightly higher OPS last year, and given that Crisp is entering his peak and Damon his decline (and that Damon didn't exactly set the bar too high), it's reasonable to expect Crisp to outperform Damon the next four years. But don't mistake that with my opinion of their careers, Damon will very likely end up as the better player. Boston will be makng a mistake, however, if they expect Crisp to lead-off. His OPS is driven more by his slugging than OBP.

I agree with your assessment of the deal, but only in the short term. Even if Marte struggles a bit, he's bound to better than Boone and at least equal to Blake. And in the long term he'll get much better, and fills weak position. It's much, much easier to find a good corner OFer than a quality 3Bman.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-28-06, 08:06 PM
You can cite the first half of the 2005 as proof of his value, I'll cite the broader sample size of his career OBP of .353 and career OPS of .784, the size and length of the contract, the period of his career the contract covers and feel very comfortable calling him overrated. He's a good player, but not even close to great (that would be Bernie, who is just short of being a HOFer), and I give him credit for being a good and durable player.

Crisp had a slightly higher OPS last year, and given that Crisp is entering his peak and Damon his decline (and that Damon didn't exactly set the bar too high), it's reasonable to expect Crisp to outperform Damon the next four years. But don't mistake that with my opinion of their careers, Damon will very likely end up as the better player. Boston will be makng a mistake, however, if they expect Crisp to lead-off. His OPS is driven more by his slugging than OBP.

I agree with your assessment of the deal, but only in the short term. Even if Marte struggles a bit, he's bound to better than Boone and at least equal to Blake. And in the long term he'll get much better, and fills weak position. It's much, much easier to find a good corner OFer than a quality 3Bman.

Crisp was also the CF equivalent of Bernie Williams last year. I'd rather have Crisp than Damon, but not in center

Johnny O
01-28-06, 08:33 PM
Crisp was also the CF equivalent of Bernie Williams last year. I'd rather have Crisp than Damon, but not in center

I'll readily admit Crisp will likely be no better than a league average defender in CF, but you should really disregard the small sample size of 10 games in CF in 2005. Judging him on his career stats in CF is much more reasonable and fair. it's highly unlikely he'll be the defensive player either Bernie was or Damon is.

Jasbro
01-28-06, 09:51 PM
I'll readily admit Crisp will likely be no better than a league average defender in CF, but you should really disregard the small sample size of 10 games in CF in 2005. Judging him on his career stats in CF is much more reasonable and fair. it's highly unlikely he'll be the defensive player either Bernie was or Damon is.

Crisp's lifetime defensive numbers in CF mirror those of Bernie Williams' defensive stats in 2005. That is not to say that he is as bad as Bernie was --but Crisp has played nearly as many games in his career in CF as he has in LF.

The same sample size that suggests that Crisp is a very, very good LF also portrays him as a very mediocre to bad CF.

Johnny O
01-28-06, 10:08 PM
Crisp's lifetime defensive numbers in CF mirror those of Bernie Williams' defensive stats in 2005. That is not to say that he is as bad as Bernie was --but Crisp has played nearly as many games in his career in CF as he has in LF.

The same sample size that suggests that Crisp is a very, very good LF also portrays him as a very mediocre to bad CF.

I did say no better than league average. I disregarded the 2005 numbers because they were horrific, and the sample size was so small.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-28-06, 10:14 PM
I did say no better than league average. I disregarded the 2005 numbers because they were horrific, and the sample size was so small.

He's played 28 games more in LF than in CF in his career. His lifetime numbers aren't good in center (both offensively and defensively)

Johnny O
01-28-06, 10:29 PM
He's played 28 games more in LF than in CF in his career. His lifetime numbers aren't good in center (both offensively and defensively)

Did you read my post? I said the sample size was too small in 2005 to judge his defense, not his career. I also said he'd be no better than league average in CF.

I'll take your word that his offense is better in LF than CF. It could be though, that his offense has simply developed (which it has) and that coincided with his shift to LF from CF because of the emergence of Sizemore.

parkerstrong
01-28-06, 10:52 PM
This is a myth. Crisp made a nice jump betweeb his second and third seasons, but his '04 season is virtually identical to his '05 season.
.297/.344/.446/.790 versus .300/.345/.465/.810. What little difference there is in those numbers is almost entirely the result of one extra homer.

And there is a school of thought that players like Crisp (high contact/low patience; think Cano) peak early and never show much improvement. So it's wrong to think there is no risk to Crisp (not to mention the Boston factor) it's just the risk is less than it is for Marte. Still, this is absolutely the best the Sox could have hoped for in their situation.

This same theory can also be applied to our old friend Soriano. He was an up-and-comer with us in 2001 and 2002 and leveled off in 2003. The Yankees sold high on him. He was still young and not improving at all (if I remember, his numbers went down slightly between 2002-2003.) This could similar to Crisp. Not saying it will happen to Crisp, but there is no sure thing he will continue to improve.

DaSwing
01-29-06, 12:02 AM
This is a myth. Crisp made a nice jump betweeb his second and third seasons, but his '04 season is virtually identical to his '05 season.
.297/.344/.446/.790 versus .300/.345/.465/.810. What little difference there is in those numbers is almost entirely the result of one extra homer.

And there is a school of thought that players like Crisp (high contact/low patience; think Cano) peak early and never show much improvement. So it's wrong to think there is no risk to Crisp (not to mention the Boston factor) it's just the risk is less than it is for Marte. Still, this is absolutely the best the Sox could have hoped for in their situation.

And keep in mind his slight increase in numbers was in the context of a league-wide drop in offense. So....

Look like a successful year to me with no reason to expect anything worse and a good chance better for the coming ones.

nyctalopia
01-29-06, 06:35 AM
has anyone mentioned, in regards to this trade, that Riske recorded NO holds during the entire 2005 season? that means he never came into a game with his team ahead 3 runs or less and NOT give up the lead (except for that 1 save he recorded). so that 3.10 ERA and that .208 BAA ... all in non-pressure situations.

noneckwilliams
01-29-06, 08:27 AM
If I'm Theo, Clement and Wells are still on the block. The Sox still need a frontline starter. If the last ten years have taught me anything is that you need to go three quality pitchers deep in the rotation if you want to win the World Series.

My feeling on Manny is that he stays. The more I look at his trade request, the more I think it was about money. The only way he could get those last two option years picked up is via trade. I'm guessing the domestic problem has cooled down somewhat, so I think he's a Red Sox for 2006.

We've been hearing for a week now that they are on the verge of acquiring AGon and it hasn't happened.

I predict a revival of rumblings about a Manny for Tejada deal.

Spiker101
01-29-06, 09:43 AM
And keep in mind his slight increase in numbers was in the context of a league-wide drop in offense. So....

Look like a successful year to me with no reason to expect anything worse and a good chance better for the coming ones.

So? Crisp wasn't one of the players juicing. No one who's ever seen him in person would think he was on juice.

I think there is very little chance he declines. I think there is a good chance he gives the Sox an .800-.820 OPS in '06 and thereafter. Which is good for a CFer if he's a plus defender. I have no idea what he'll give them defensively. And frankly, no one else does either.

Archer1979
01-29-06, 10:37 AM
We've been hearing for a week now that they are on the verge of acquiring AGon and it hasn't happened.

I predict a revival of rumblings about a Manny for Tejada deal.

They were waiting for the Crisp deal to be finalized. If the Crisp deal fell through, they could have used some of the components of the trade to get a shortstop.

A-Gon is next.

Jersey Yankee
01-29-06, 12:11 PM
So? Crisp wasn't one of the players juicing. No one who's ever seen him in person would think he was on juice.

I think there is very little chance he declines. I think there is a good chance he gives the Sox an .800-.820 OPS in '06 and thereafter. Which is good for a CFer if he's a plus defender. I have no idea what he'll give them defensively. And frankly, no one else does either.
How did "juice" get in here? BTW, how do you look at someone and tell whether or not they're juicing? If so, wouldn't Bonds and his enlarged head have been found to have used HGH already?

After Felix Heredia failed a drug test, I think that many performance and physical traits claims went out the door, pretty much.

ShaneTravis
01-29-06, 12:34 PM
How did "juice" get in here? BTW, how do you look at someone and tell whether or not they're juicing? If so, wouldn't Bonds and his enlarged head have been found to have used HGH already?

After Felix Heredia failed a drug test, I think that many performance and physical traits claims went out the door, pretty much.

You absolutely cannot tell who is or who isn't by their "Look".

I posted way too much on the Raffy thread and steroids thread, so I will shut up .
But, comments "he doesn't look like he is, he has a beer gut for crying out loud!, he has no power, the guy looks like a bowler......" frustrate me to no end.

Jersey Yankee
01-29-06, 12:43 PM
You absolutely cannot tell who is or who isn't by their "Look".

I posted way too much on the Raffy thread and steroids thread, so I will shut up .
But, comments "he doesn't look like he is, he has a beer gut for crying out loud!, he has no power, the guy looks like a bowler......" frustrate me to no end.
Since the 1st paragraph appears to be a statement, then you're agreeing with me.

If we were to use photographic evidence, compared to prior pix of these guys, then we wouldn't even need a drug test to screen people.

The reason I'd mentioned Felix Heredia is that some guys have actually used, but you'd never know this by their performance, nor how they look. That's why I discount these things. However, big-headed (physically) guys like Bonds, Giambi are questionable in refuting this.

ShaneTravis
01-29-06, 02:07 PM
Since the 1st paragraph appears to be a statement, then you're agreeing with me.

If we were to use photographic evidence, compared to prior pix of these guys, then we wouldn't even need a drug test to screen people.

The reason I'd mentioned Felix Heredia is that some guys have actually used, but you'd never know this by their performance, nor how they look. That's why I discount these things. However, big-headed (physically) guys like Bonds, Giambi are questionable in refuting this.

Ohh I am definately agreeing with you. I get riled up when the S-word gets mentioned, I should have made it clearer.

If I could have one wish to better the game of baseball it would be for the IOC or their standards to start testing MLB.

Or, if you really want to get serious have National Physique Committee (NPC) criteria they use for the Drug Free competitions.

The testing done by MLB is pretty toothless.

Alex Sanchez, Juan Rincon ? Who would have quessed?
Bonds, Sosa ? Maybe a little more obvious.

Jersey Yankee
01-29-06, 02:53 PM
Ohh I am definately agreeing with you. I get riled up when the S-word gets mentioned, I should have made it clearer.

If I could have one wish to better the game of baseball it would be for the IOC or their standards to start testing MLB.

Or, if you really want to get serious have National Physique Committee (NPC) criteria they use for the Drug Free competitions.

The testing done by MLB is pretty toothless.

Alex Sanchez, Juan Rincon ? Who would have quessed?
Bonds, Sosa ? Maybe a little more obvious.
It's not really about you, but more about this board. I'm somewhat familiar with your name, but with so many names I'm not too familiar with, I sometimes have to decipher tongue-in-cheek from regular statements. Yours didn't seem to have any jovial humor when I'd re-read it twice, so that's why I figured it was a statement.

As to the testing done by the various athletes, you'll have to understand that IOC athletes are amateurs who don't make $15m/yr, so I doubt they could even remotely afford the drugs taken. Other than Raffy's using the same steroid that Ben Johnson got busted using in 1988, which is like killing someone with a hammer then not expecting the obvious signs to show.

Would these kinds of drugs even be detectable by IOC standards? I'm figuring that they're more expensive due to (1) their effectiveness, and (2) that they're largely undetectable when tested for.

The nobodies busted just showed that some people who've got no place in business at the minimum level could be taking. Therefore, Jeremy Giambi could just as easily have used as Jason. One to add to what wasn't there; the other to add to what was there in a good amount already.

Dooley Womack
01-29-06, 03:27 PM
We've been hearing for a week now that they are on the verge of acquiring AGon and it hasn't happened.

I predict a revival of rumblings about a Manny for Tejada deal.

Unless AGon drops his 3 year demand, I think the Sox will go with Cora. If they were willing to go a year with AGon providing nothing at the plate why not go with Cora, who also sucks at the plate, but has a serviceable glove?

Rice14
01-29-06, 03:40 PM
Unless AGon drops his 3 year demand, I think the Sox will go with Cora. If they were willing to go a year with AGon providing nothing at the plate why not go with Cora, who also sucks at the plate, but has a serviceable glove?

If the Sox give Gonzales anything more than one year........

Well, I won't like it.

bnorris85
01-29-06, 03:53 PM
3 years lololololololol

Grape Ape
01-29-06, 04:28 PM
sox management is too smart to ever give Gonzalez 3 years.

dartek
01-29-06, 05:16 PM
sox management is too smart to ever give Gonzalez 3 years.
From your mouth to Theo's ear.

Grape Ape
01-29-06, 05:31 PM
From your mouth to Theo's ear.

Well, if he's listening then I also suggest trying to pry Brent Abernathy from the Breweres with Manny as the centerpiece.

Spiker101
01-29-06, 06:23 PM
How did "juice" get in here? BTW, how do you look at someone and tell whether or not they're juicing? If so, wouldn't Bonds and his enlarged head have been found to have used HGH already?

After Felix Heredia failed a drug test, I think that many performance and physical traits claims went out the door, pretty much.

I attribute the slight decline in overall offensive numbers in '05 to a lot of players getting off the juice because of more stringent testing.

You can't look at someone and tell whether he's a short-term steroid user, but the physical effects of long-term use have been well documented.

Jersey Yankee
01-29-06, 07:06 PM
I attribute the slight decline in overall offensive numbers in '05 to a lot of players getting off the juice because of more stringent testing.

You can't look at someone and tell whether he's a short-term steroid user, but the physical effects of long-term use have been well documented.
The only thing I saw in your post was physical attributes, so that's why I'd commented.

One could say lots of players have gotten off it, but what happened Raffy?

If you can't look at someone and tell whether they've been on it or not, then why'd you say one could look at a guy and tell, from earlier?

I remember folks kept saying that Ivan Rodriguez (http://baseball-reference.com/r/rodriiv01.shtml) was on the juice earlier, since he wasn't as bulky as in earlier years. His BA, OBP, SLG all went down from 2004-05, as did his RBI, BB total. Now then, can you then tell me whether he was on the juice or not?

Spiker101
01-29-06, 07:24 PM
The only thing I saw in your post was physical attributes, so that's why I'd commented.

One could say lots of players have gotten off it, but what happened Raffy?

If you can't look at someone and tell whether they've been on it or not, then why'd you say one could look at a guy and tell, from earlier?

I remember folks kept saying that Ivan Rodriguez (http://baseball-reference.com/r/rodriiv01.shtml) was on the juice earlier, since he wasn't as bulky as in earlier years. His BA, OBP, SLG all went down from 2004-05, as did his RBI, BB total. Now then, can you then tell me whether he was on the juice or not?

I don't know about Raffy. My guess would be that he was struggling early in the season and needed to reach some milestones to ensure his election to the HOF and succumbed to temptation. The irony of course is that there is no way hell he makes it to Cooperstown now.

As for Pudge and some other players who showed up in spring training a lot slimmer, it's certainly cause for suspicion. His story is that he deliberately lost weight to reduce the wear and tear on his knees as he enters his mid-30s. It's plausible. I'm not calling him a liar.

The point is that long-term use of steroids has been empirically proven to build muscle mass. The poster child, literally, for this phenomenon is a player from the '90s named Brady Anderson who at after averaging 15-20 homers a year, suddenly at age 32 hit 50. It was in that year he submitted a photograph that was turned into a poster to benefit charity. Hercules was never as ripped as this guy.

Grape Ape
01-29-06, 07:37 PM
Anderson was also under contract with EAS at the time, and privvy to their entire staff of trainers, nutritionists, etc.

While I don't disagree with you, it IS possible to obtain Brady's physique naturally.

Jersey Yankee
01-29-06, 07:44 PM
I don't know about Raffy. My guess would be that he was struggling early in the season and needed to reach some milestones to ensure his election to the HOF and succumbed to temptation. The irony of course is that there is no way hell he makes it to Cooperstown now.

As for Pudge and some other players who showed up in spring training a lot slimmer, it's certainly cause for suspicion. His story is that he deliberately lost weight to reduce the wear and tear on his knees as he enters his mid-30s. It's plausible. I'm not calling him a liar.

The point is that long-term use of steroids has been empirically proven to build muscle mass. The poster child, literally, for this phenomenon is a player from the '90s named Brady Anderson who at after averaging 15-20 homers a year, suddenly at age 32 hit 50. It was in that year he submitted a photograph that was turned into a poster to benefit charity. Hercules was never as ripped as this guy.

Well, the thing is that nobody suspected Raffy, since unlike Sammy or Big Mac, he wasn't very bulky. Raffy is probably bigger than the average Joe Blow in the stands, but he's not gigantic. That kinda debunks the theory that steroids users are all muscle-bound guys who've got popping muscles on their eyebrows and stuff, since Raffy was just "regular big", not "cut and bulky", like Sammy, nor "very big" like Big Mac.

For Pudge, I've heard the story, both about his weight loss and resulting lower stats, as well as his desire to reduce wear and tear. He's a catcher, he's not getting younger, so who do you believe?

What's up with this "empirical" thing? What exactly are you trying to say, or what point are you trying to make?

As to Baltimore's own Brady Anderson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/anderbr01.shtml), he hit 50 in 1996, but 63 in the prior *FOUR* years, and 60 in the following *THREE* years. Talk about a one-hit wonder. Interestingly, his BB & SO total both went down slightly from 1995, so I figured that he didn't actually become a much better player. However, his SLG went up almost .200 points from 1995-96.

I wouldn't say that Brady was the poster child. In fact, I'd say that the poster child had a great year when he turned 37. Need I mention his name? :p

Jersey Yankee
01-29-06, 07:46 PM
Anderson was also under contract with EAS at the time, and privvy to their entire staff of trainers, nutritionists, etc.

While I don't disagree with you, it IS possible to obtain Brady's physique naturally.
I couldn't care less what he looked like. When you go from zero to hero in no time flat, and only do that for one year, that seems very fishy to me. That major mountain he climbed in stats, then his falling off said mountain didn't seem like anything that was done naturally.

If we were to refer to physique, it's like going from regular guy to Lou Ferrigno to regular guy again, all in consecutive years.

Spiker101
01-29-06, 11:28 PM
Well, the thing is that nobody suspected Raffy, since unlike Sammy or Big Mac, he wasn't very bulky. Raffy is probably bigger than the average Joe Blow in the stands, but he's not gigantic. That kinda debunks the theory that steroids users are all muscle-bound guys who've got popping muscles on their eyebrows and stuff, since Raffy was just "regular big", not "cut and bulky", like Sammy, nor "very big" like Big Mac.

For Pudge, I've heard the story, both about his weight loss and resulting lower stats, as well as his desire to reduce wear and tear. He's a catcher, he's not getting younger, so who do you believe?

What's up with this "empirical" thing? What exactly are you trying to say, or what point are you trying to make?

As to Baltimore's own Brady Anderson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/anderbr01.shtml), he hit 50 in 1996, but 63 in the prior *FOUR* years, and 60 in the following *THREE* years. Talk about a one-hit wonder. Interestingly, his BB & SO total both went down slightly from 1995, so I figured that he didn't actually become a much better player. However, his SLG went up almost .200 points from 1995-96.

I wouldn't say that Brady was the poster child. In fact, I'd say that the poster child had a great year when he turned 37. Need I mention his name? :p

I guess I'm not being clear enough. The muscle mass comes only after an intensive weight training program augmented with juice over a long period of time. Most players using steroids are not long-term users, from what I've read. They're guys who've been hurt and want to heal quicker, or guys who suffered an off-season and over the winter use steroids to help them "get into the best shape of their careers" to give a temporary boost to their careers.

Raffy's not huge but he's bigger than you probably think he is, around six foot, 190.

I suppose you're talking about Bonds. Again, from what I've read he's never messed with steroids. He is/was into the really exotic stuff: human growth hormone, synthetic testosterone. Stuff that can't be detected by a urine test, but can be by more sophisticated blood tests.

Brady after his "miracle" year was constantly bothered by nagging injuries, pulled muscles primarily, and never came close again to duplicating. I was living in Baltimore in those years, and it was an open joke about Brady's use of juice. The truth is baseball laughed and winked at steroid use, which is why I find all the gnashing of teeth from Selig and company these days more than a little hypocritical.

Spiker101
01-29-06, 11:36 PM
Anderson was also under contract with EAS at the time, and privvy to their entire staff of trainers, nutritionists, etc.

While I don't disagree with you, it IS possible to obtain Brady's physique naturally.

Sure, if you're genetically predisposed to put on muscle mass through weight training, which is really the body's ability to store water inside new muscle tissue. But Brady up until age 30 or so showed no such propensity.

Dooley Womack
01-30-06, 12:20 AM
sox management is too smart to ever give Gonzalez 3 years.

I also suspect that AGon's agent isn't dumb enough to continue to hold out for 3 unless some desperate team comes along. Hopefully the Sox are just dumb enough to compromise.

CTSoxFan
01-30-06, 12:29 AM
I also suspect that AGon's agent isn't dumb enough to continue to hold out for 3 unless some desperate team comes along. Hopefully the Sox are just dumb enough to compromise.

Damn, Dooley, that is the nastiest avatar I've ever seen.

I'm hoping it's Mussina's dental work. ;)

Jersey Yankee
01-30-06, 01:01 PM
I got these numbers from a very highly respectable stat source, so please consider:

1) The Indians traded OF Coco Crisp, P David Riske and C Josh Bard to the Red Sox for 3B Andy Marte, P Guillermo Mota, C Kelly Shoppach and a player to be named later or cash.

CRISP
YEAR AGE RCAA OBA SLG OPS OWP RC/G AVG HR RBI SB G TEAM
2003 23 -12 .302 .353 .655 .390 3.63 .266 3 27 15 99 Indians
2004 24 2 .344 .446 .790 .515 5.23 .297 15 71 20 139 Indians
2005 25 20 .345 .465 .810 .606 5.80 .300 16 69 15 145 Indians
CAR 9 .332 .424 .756 .518 4.96 .287 35 176 54 415
LG AVG 0 .334 .429 .763 .500 5.01 .268 52 216 26
POS AVG 1 .334 .424 .758 .501 5.01 .275 44 204 45

RISKE
YEAR AGE RSAA ERA G GS IP SO SO/9 BR/9 W L SV NW NL TEAM
2003 26 16 2.29 68 0 74.2 82 9.88 9.04 2 2 8 3 1 Indians
2004 27 7 3.72 72 0 77.1 78 9.08 13.03 7 3 5 6 4 Indians
2005 28 8 3.10 58 0 72.2 48 5.94 9.17 3 4 1 4 3 Indians
CAREER 30 3.55 287 0 317.1 318 9.02 11.77 17 12 16 18 11
LG AVG 0 4.52 317.1 221 6.26 12.92 18 18

BARD
YEAR AGE RCAA OBA SLG OPS OWP RC/G AVG HR RBI SB G TEAM
2003 25 -11 .293 .373 .666 .365 3.43 .244 8 36 0 91 Indians
2004 26 5 .478 .684 1.162 .889 15.75 .421 1 4 0 7 Indians
2005 27 -6 .266 .277 .543 .214 2.25 .193 1 9 0 34 Indians
CAR -19 .289 .370 .659 .355 3.40 .238 13 61 0 156
LG AVG 0 .333 .427 .761 .500 4.98 .267 17 70 8
POS AVG -14 .311 .394 .705 .407 4.05 .255 14 65 2

MARTE
YEAR AGE RCAA OBA SLG OPS OWP RC/G AVG HR RBI SB G TEAM
2005 21 -8 .227 .211 .438 .091 1.50 .140 0 4 0 24 Braves
CAR -8 .227 .211 .438 .091 1.50 .140 0 4 0 24
LG AVG 0 .339 .428 .767 .500 5.07 .268 2 9 1
POS AVG 0 .339 .424 .763 .495 5.03 .269 2 9 1

MOTA
YEAR AGE RSAA ERA G GS IP SO SO/9 BR/9 W L SV NW NL TEAM
2003 29 24 1.97 76 0 105 99 8.49 9.00 6 3 1 7 2 Dodgers
2004 30 11 3.07 78 0 96.2 85 7.91 10.80 9 8 4 11 6 Dodgers/Marlins
2005 31 -5 4.70 56 0 67 60 8.06 13.16 2 2 2 2 2 Marlins
CAREER 30 3.61 386 0 464.1 375 7.27 11.34 22 24 7 29 17
LG AVG 0 4.33 464.1 347 6.72 12.87 26 26

SHOPPACH
YEAR AGE RCAA OBA SLG OPS OWP RC/G AVG HR RBI SB G TEAM
2005 25 -3 .063 .000 .063 .000 0.00 .000 0 0 0 9 Red Sox
CAR -3 .063 .000 .063 .000 0.00 .000 0 0 0 9
LG AVG 0 .331 .425 .756 .500 4.89 .268 1 3 0
POS AVG 0 .316 .394 .710 .429 4.16 .258 1 2 0

Dozer
01-30-06, 02:58 PM
A month ago Marte was an overrated prospect, and considered by many Yankee fans to be nothing more than average talent.

Now because the Sox managed to pull off a nifty trade, they gave up the second coming of Schmidt.

Wouldn't mind seeing a bit of consistancy here, no matter what team you root for.

Yankees1962
01-30-06, 03:59 PM
A month ago Marte was an overrated prospect, and considered by many Yankee fans to be nothing more than average talent.

Now because the Sox managed to pull off a nifty trade, they gave up the second coming of Schmidt.

Wouldn't mind seeing a bit of consistancy here, no matter what team you root for.
That consistency cuts both ways!

Snatch Catch
01-30-06, 05:38 PM
If we were to refer to physique, it's like going from regular guy to Lou Ferrigno to regular guy again, all in consecutive years.


Hardly. Lou Ferrigno was a body builder. A regular guy is not what Brady Anderson was.

Brady Anderson went from world class athlete to elite world class athlete. When you are already a genetic freak of sorts when speaking of musculature and athleticism, you do have the ability to refine your body to a much greater level with legal supplementation and manipulation.

That being said, I still believe that Anderson juiced.

ieddyi
01-30-06, 05:38 PM
A month ago Marte was an overrated prospect, and considered by many Yankee fans to be nothing more than average talent.

Now because the Sox managed to pull off a nifty trade, they gave up the second coming of Schmidt.

Wouldn't mind seeing a bit of consistancy here, no matter what team you root for.


I think MOST yankee fans on this board acknowledged that prior to last year he had shown consistent quality. He spit the bit in his short stint w/ Atlanta and sucked in winter ball. We also noted that Atlanta, which has the best development/scouting people in the game let him go for EEEdgar. We were jsut tempering the HOF hype that got transferred (very quickly I might add ) from Hanley to Andy.

Until any prospect actually produces, they are all overrated.

Not many here denied his potential

Jersey Yankee
01-30-06, 05:49 PM
Hardly. Lou Ferrigno was a body builder. A regular guy is not what Brady Anderson was.

Brady Anderson went from world class athlete to elite world class athlete. When you are already a genetic freak of sorts when speaking of musculature and athleticism, you do have the ability to refine your body to a much greater level with legal supplementation and manipulation.

That being said, I still believe that Anderson juiced.
I googled his pix and saw these:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:IAb2jqk35NiYZM:www.femmefan.com/site/images/lookerspics/lookers2/Brady-Anderson.jpg

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:3samhvxn5wpgLM:members.tripod.com/kcaulfield/bradyap.jpg

I've personally never followed him, but if you asked me about 1996 and the Birds, I'd only think of himself and Jeffrey Maier.

My example of Ferrigno was exagerrated, if you didn't catch that. In actuality, from those pix, he looked like he could've been a gymnast or a "fitness" type of bodybuilder, but certainly not the 6'5", 270-290 lb guy that Ferrigno was, when he'd placed 3rd behind Ahnuld and Serge Olivia during their primes. Nor later when he'd played The Incredible Hulk.

I'm not too sure how much of that suplementation, augmentation and whatever else there is, would add to anyone's HR total one bit. If you can hit, then you're a good hitter. He had a .639 SLG that year, which is great. It didn't look like his discipline improved, as his BB & SO total both decreased slightly.

When compared to Barry Bonds, whom many have said was already set for Cooperstown, anything added to an elite baseball player would only make him better. Perhaps Brady Anderson might've been an elite athlete, such as what the Ironman competitors are, but I've only considered him amongst the elite for that one single season--1996.

lurkerMctroll
01-30-06, 05:50 PM
I think MOST yankee fans on this board acknowledged that prior to last year he had shown consistent quality. He spit the bit in his short stint w/ Atlanta and sucked in winter ball. We also noted that Atlanta, which has the best development/scouting people in the game let him go for EEEdgar. We were jsut tempering the HOF hype that got transferred (very quickly I might add ) from Hanley to Andy.

Until any prospect actually produces, they are all overrated.

Not many here denied his potential

Not that there is any use in debating with you but...

Any yankee fan who was down on him due to his winter stats was just being down on him becuase of his new jersey.

ShaneTravis
01-30-06, 06:26 PM
I googled his pix and saw these:


My example of Ferrigno was exagerrated, if you didn't catch that. In actuality, from those pix, he looked like he could've been a gymnast or a "fitness" type of bodybuilder, but certainly not the 6'5", 270-290 lb guy that Ferrigno was, when he'd placed 3rd behind Ahnuld and Serge Olivia during their primes. Nor later when he'd played The Incredible Hulk.

Actually from the upper left pix I would have guessed he was a bodybuilder.
I must say wow, just wow. I honestly can't believe how he looks. I am surprised the guy could run, or swing a bat.
He has all the characteristics of a bodybuilder---Mass, Seperation, Density, Symmetry, Hardness, Vascularity... And the guy is lean.
I have been in the gym for the last decade and if (In fact I never would have guessed that was Brady) I didn't know better I would say the man in the picture was training for an amateur body building contest. Possibly trying to get his pro status.

noneckwilliams
01-30-06, 06:44 PM
A month ago Marte was an overrated prospect, and considered by many Yankee fans to be nothing more than average talent.

Now because the Sox managed to pull off a nifty trade, they gave up the second coming of Schmidt.

Wouldn't mind seeing a bit of consistancy here, no matter what team you root for.

Oh please spare me this horsesh*t. Marte has been recognized on this board by all sides as a great prospect and a good pickup in exchange for a stiff like Renteria.

Wasn't it Gammons who made some grandiose statement about how the Marte acqusition would be remembered years from now by Red Sox fans. He also stated unequivocably they would never deal him.

You traded the best prospect you had and one of the best in the game for a good little outfielder. Congratulations.

Jersey Yankee
01-30-06, 06:48 PM
Actually from the upper left pix I would have guessed he was a bodybuilder.
I must say wow, just wow. I honestly can't believe how he looks. I am surprised the guy could run, or swing a bat.
He has all the characteristics of a bodybuilder---Mass, Seperation, Density, Symmetry, Hardness, Vascularity... And the guy is lean.
I have been in the gym for the last decade and if (In fact I never would have guessed that was Brady) I didn't know better I would say the man in the picture was training for an amateur body building contest. Possibly trying to get his pro status.
I just typed "Brady Anderson" into google image, so those were the first ones I came across. I presume they weren't Photoshopped, airbrushed, etc.

He looks like he spends more time in the gym than do most guys. In fact, he looks far more cut than does Bonds (who (IMO) himself has a "big guy/Paul Bunyon" look similar to McGwire).

That said, I can't see those pix as being for a serious bodybuilder. Those guys all have exagerrated looks. Popping pecs, oversized 19" or 20" arms, etc. To me, he's a fitness bodybuilder. Here's some real bodybuilders from a real bodybuilding mag:

http://www.flexonline.com/ (click on "photo galleries" around the top left)

http://www.flexonline.com/images/fl/208574/1938.jpg

http://www.flexonline.com/images/fl/208724/2065.jpg

http://www.flexonline.com/images/fl/208684/2039.jpg

http://web.flexonline.com/images/fl/208523/1813.jpg

Need I say more? These guys are freakishly large, but Brady's just the buffest guy in his gym, presuming he doesn't go to a bodybuilder's gym. The exagerration doesn't end with the muscles, but where the abs, pecs, delts, bi- and triceps begin and end. It's just amazing.

CTSoxFan
01-30-06, 07:04 PM
Wasn't it Gammons who made some grandiose statement about how the Marte acqusition would be remembered years from now by Red Sox fans. He also stated unequivocably they would never deal him.

You traded the best prospect you had and one of the best in the game for a good little outfielder. Congratulations.

Well, Gammons was one for two, then. That's a better average than he usually gets when waxing poetic about the Sox, no?

As for your other observation, we traded a great PROSPECT for a guy who a.) actually produces on the MLB level right now, and b.) fills a current need. It's a gamble, but one worth taking, in my estimation. Crisp doesn't have the same high ceiling as Marte, of course, but we won't know whether Marte himself reaches his potential for years, perhaps.

Jersey Yankee
01-30-06, 07:35 PM
Well, Gammons was one for two, then. That's a better average than he usually gets when waxing poetic about the Sox, no?

As for your other observation, we traded a great PROSPECT for a guy who a.) actually produces on the MLB level right now, and b.) fills a current need. It's a gamble, but one worth taking, in my estimation. Crisp doesn't have the same high ceiling as Marte, of course, but we won't know whether Marte himself reaches his potential for years, perhaps.
I'll agree with you on the gamble thing. I think it was Keith Hernandez who'd once said about Strawberry, "Potential only means you haven't done anything yet".

That said, there's also the gamble of what will Coco do once he's again a full-time centerfielder? There's lots of ground to cover, and a Cleveland fan on another board said that Coco was better in LF, and Grady Sizemore was better in CF.

ShaneTravis
01-30-06, 07:41 PM
I just typed "Brady Anderson" into google image, so those were the first ones I came across. I presume they weren't Photoshopped, airbrushed, etc.

He looks like he spends more time in the gym than do most guys. In fact, he looks far more cut than does Bonds (who (IMO) himself has a "big guy/Paul Bunyon" look similar to McGwire).

That said, I can't see those pix as being for a serious bodybuilder. Those guys all have exagerrated looks. Popping pecs, oversized 19" or 20" arms, etc. To me, he's a fitness bodybuilder. Here's some real bodybuilders from a real bodybuilding mag:

http://www.flexonline.com/ (click on "photo galleries" around the top left)

http://www.flexonline.com/images/fl/208574/1938.jpg

http://www.flexonline.com/images/fl/208724/2065.jpg

http://www.flexonline.com/images/fl/208684/2039.jpg

http://web.flexonline.com/images/fl/208523/1813.jpg

Need I say more? These guys are freakishly large, but Brady's just the buffest guy in his gym, presuming he doesn't go to a bodybuilder's gym. The exagerration doesn't end with the muscles, but where the abs, pecs, delts, bi- and triceps begin and end. It's just amazing.


"Real"---lol
Brother I will bet my life that there is not one "Real" guy there. :D I don't need to check out the gallery. Darrem Charles lol.
Flex Wheeler, Dillett...I have met those guys in person...
And I have had memberships at "bodybuilding gyms" for over a decade. I was a member at Johnny Lats when all the guys on the circuit would train there before shows.

You and I are pretty much on the same page. In fact I have enjoyed your posts on this. But,I am going to leave this topic alone. I have talked ad naseum on steroids in the past and I would rather stop.

BTW this is me at 19 and 155 lb. I have hit a high at 190 lb keeping the same symmetry. I have a slew of others (that are too revealing) but I really don't want to plaster my image all over the place....they are sort of embarrasing. And, it's dinner time for christs sake! People would lose their appetite! lol
And yes I expect some good natured ribbing.

@ 20 ---keep escalting for 8 more years and you get a general idea of the progression.

Jersey Yankee
01-30-06, 08:10 PM
"Real"---lol
Brother I will bet my life that there is not one "Real" guy there. :D I don't need to check out the gallery. Darrem Charles lol.
Flex Wheeler, Dillett...I have met those guys in person...
And I have had memberships at "bodybuilding gyms" for over a decade. I was a member at Johnny Lats when all the guys on the circuit would train there before shows.

You and I are pretty much on the same page. In fact I have enjoyed your posts on this. But,I am going to leave this topic alone. I have talked ad naseum on steroids in the past and I would rather stop.

BTW this is me at 19 and 155 lb. I have hit a high at 190 lb keeping the same symmetry. I have a slew of others (that are too revealing) but I really don't want to plaster my image all over the place....they are sort of embarrasing. And, it's dinner time for christs sake! People would lose their appetite! lol
And yes I expect some good natured ribbing.
There was/is a 5th Ave Gym in Brooklyn's Park Slope section (either that or Prospect Heights) that has some heavy pumpers. Guys like Mr NYS and stuff like that. I doubt you'll have any Mr Olympia competitors, but there was also a Gold's Gym that had opened in Brooklyn Heights some time ago.

I'll basically separate gyms into two categories: the aerobic ones that have basketball courts, perhaps tennis, swimming, some weight training. Then there's the hardcore muscle palaces that'll have machines to isolate every single muscle in one's earlobe. :D :lol:

In an era where people go to regular gyms to stay in shape, keep flexible, etc, Brady would be the biggest one there, likely. You'll find a few powerlifters, football players and stuff using the aerobics places as their "2nd gym", but that's it. At the top places, he'd be like Mini Me over there. In shape, but not super-pumped.

As to them being real? Only if you believe that grass is really green and that juice can be found in Aisle 3 of the supermarket. :P

Good-natured ribbing? I'll put the pix in front of a few girlies and let them laugh. :) Then again, those pix do resemble cross between a younger Fred Gwynne (Herman Munster) and Ben Stiller. ;)

ShaneTravis
01-30-06, 08:24 PM
There was/is a 5th Ave Gym in Brooklyn's Park Slope section (either that or Prospect Heights) that has some heavy pumpers. Guys like Mr NYS and stuff like that. I doubt you'll have any Mr Olympia competitors, but there was also a Gold's Gym that had opened in Brooklyn Heights some time ago.

I'll basically separate gyms into two categories: the aerobic ones that have basketball courts, perhaps tennis, swimming, some weight training. Then there's the hardcore muscle palaces that'll have machines to isolate every single muscle in one's earlobe. :D :lol:

In an era where people go to regular gyms to stay in shape, keep flexible, etc, Brady would be the biggest one there, likely. You'll find a few powerlifters, football players and stuff using the aerobics places as their "2nd gym", but that's it. At the top places, he'd be like Mini Me over there. In shape, but not super-pumped.

As to them being real? Only if you believe that grass is really green and that juice can be found in Aisle 3 of the supermarket. :P

Good-natured ribbing? I'll put the pix in front of a few girlies and let them laugh. :) Then again, those pix do resemble cross between a younger Fred Gwynne (Herman Munster) and Ben Stiller. ;)


I put them up to sort of let on I (sort of) know what I am talking about.
You putting up a picture of Darrem Charles vs. Brady is no comparison.

And this is why.
Brady is a pro ball player who (hypothetically) juiced for one of two years. And by the looks of him got amazing, amazing results. If you gave him a time line of 10 years the guy could easily....easily compete. Again I am apeaking from a guy who went to competitions. (not compete)

Darrem Charles was born in 69' --won or place (hazy details) in 1989.So before he hit 20 he was on the circuit. Not to mention that is 20 years of pro bodybuilding and chemistry at work. lol Darrem Charles is at the absolute pinnacle of his profession. Brady was a guy who probably knew just enough to get a couple of cycles. Also the chemistry 10 years ago has grown exponentially.....

The photo (Brady) you showed had the makings of a guy who was ripped, contest weight. That is some serious lifting.

Brady has the look of someone who is 7/8 years away from competing. I mean, man I was blown away by his photo. And I have been doing this for awhile. And when I scroll to view the photo you found I was shocked.

Anyway, good talking to you man. My point is Brady has the makings (from that photo) to absolutely start competing on the amateur circuit. And who knows what he could do given more time and more knowledge of the pharmaceuticals out there.

btw I have slimmed down considerably. Pilates Brother it's the wave of the future! lol

chelloveck
01-30-06, 10:20 PM
i liked this article from sports illustrated... this reporter doesn't seem too crazy about Marte or Coco. Take a look

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jacob_luft/01/30/jan30.chatter/index.html

sorry if it has been posted already.

DaSwing
01-31-06, 06:50 AM
So? Crisp wasn't one of the players juicing. No one who's ever seen him in person would think he was on juice.

I think there is very little chance he declines. I think there is a good chance he gives the Sox an .800-.820 OPS in '06 and thereafter. Which is good for a CFer if he's a plus defender. I have no idea what he'll give them defensively. And frankly, no one else does either.

I wasn't trying to imply that he was or wasn't on the juice! I was just pointing out that the value of an .800 OPS CF last year vs. an .800 OPS CF the year before has likely increased.

I don't expect a radical increase in his numbers... but all things being equal, the next 4 years should be at least as productive and likely a little more productive than the last couple... AND... in the context of things, that will be GREAT for the Sox.. regardless of what Marte does.

Spiker101
01-31-06, 06:56 AM
I wasn't trying to imply that he was or wasn't on the juice! I was just pointing out that the value of an .800 OPS CF last year vs. an .800 OPS CF the year before has likely increased.

I don't expect a radical increase in his numbers... but all things being equal, the next 4 years should be at least as productive and likely a little more productive than the last couple... AND... in the context of things, that will be GREAT for the Sox.. regardless of what Marte does.

I tried and tried and tried ... and couldn't find a thing to disagree with here.:D

SouthernBoSox
02-02-06, 08:47 PM
Oh please spare me this horsesh*t. Marte has been recognized on this board by all sides as a great prospect and a good pickup in exchange for a stiff like Renteria.

Wasn't it Gammons who made some grandiose statement about how the Marte acqusition would be remembered years from now by Red Sox fans. He also stated unequivocably they would never deal him.

You traded the best prospect you had and one of the best in the game for a good little outfielder. Congratulations.

What? Gammons in no way said this. He did say that Marte was a great prospect and this could be the off-season he is remembered, but he DID NOT say he was not going to be traded in fact he said the opposite.

From A boston.com chat

Q: Will the Sox get rid of Marte because of the season he is having in the Dominican winter league?

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"No. Teams don't put much stock in that. They do no want to trade him. But in the end. If they can't fill two positions any other way, it may make sense to think of trading him as "alright, this is what we got for Renteria, how do we solve our other problems?"

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Now I know Gammons is wrong a lot and very aggravating esp. to Yankee fans but at least don't put words in his mouth.