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Dooley Womack
01-24-06, 10:31 PM
Why isn't anyone discussing Ted Williams and Marte for DiMaggio, Bill Dickey and Henn?

BombersBlvd
01-24-06, 10:32 PM
*cough*

The Akron Beacon Journal believes that the removal of Guillermo Mota and David Riske from the six-player swap won't lead to Coco Crisp trade and the deal could be off for now.
Rightly or wrongly, the Indians saw Riske to Mota as an upgrade. That was actually the one part of the transaction we liked for the Red Sox, but considering how the Indians have used Riske, it's not surprising they feel that way. If Andy Marte and Kelly Shoppach for Crisp and Josh Bard isn't enough for the Indians, there's no way Boston should give up more. Perhaps it's time for Boston to make a run at Austin Kearns.
--Rotoworld.
*cough*

I only recently learned that Riske was part of the yet-to-be-finalized deal. If this is the case I have no idea what the Indians are thinking, especially realizing that the Red Sox are extremely eager for a talented center fielder. Crisp, Riske and Bard? For Mota, unproven Shoppach and touted, yet unproven Marte? WTF? Add Riske to what is shaping up to be a very, very good bullpen and, in addition to acquiring and controlling Crisp for cheap and for years, you have one of the stronger pens in the league (especially if Foulke has recovered as they are reporting.) I definitely don't want this deal to go down.

BJG
01-24-06, 10:35 PM
That may have been more a failure of the Reds FO than the principals of the deal though. The Reds GM just got shown the backdoor.

If they are going to go back and revisit backed out of deals, I'd rather have Westbrook at his price than Clement at his, especially considering the home park and relative g/f tendencies. Anyway, the interim GM in Cincy was in-house and part of the old decision making group.

Archer1979
01-24-06, 10:40 PM
Why isn't anyone discussing Ted Williams and Marte for DiMaggio, Bill Dickey and Henn?

Whoever gets Ted, comes out ahead in that deal.

monty
01-24-06, 10:42 PM
Personally, id rather have Bill Buckner.... Ted Williams doesnt know how to hit... jeesh!

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-24-06, 10:48 PM
Wow, so about 16 pages of this thread is now worthless now that the deal is dead. Thanks a lot Mota!

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 10:49 PM
Well, I'm delighted that the Sox will be holding onto Andy Marte.

And of course, the unraveling of this trade does nothing to keep us from signing Alex Gonzalez.

Sigh...:upset:

Dooley Womack
01-24-06, 10:50 PM
Well, I'm delighted that the Sox will be holding onto Andy Marte.

And of course, the unraveling of this trade does nothing to keep us from signing Alex Gonzalez.

Sigh...:upset:

Think it's dead CT, or just has to be re-worked?

Dooley Womack
01-24-06, 10:51 PM
Whoever gets Ted, comes out ahead in that deal. :roflmao:

That was easy, but funny nonetheless.

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 10:56 PM
Think it's dead CT, or just has to be re-worked?

Hoping for B, but preparing myself for A. And about three months of Adam Stern and Alex Gonzalez at the bottom of the order.

On the bright(er) (?) side...I choose to believe this rumor (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/01/on_michaels_for.html), which has the Phillies desperately dangling Michaels and actually enamored of Kelly Shoppach. Ah, if only...

Prickly Pete
01-24-06, 10:59 PM
And about three months of Adam Stern and Alex Gonzalez at the bottom of the order.
There is zero chance that Adam Stern is the starting CFer for Boston next season.


On the bright(er) (?) side...I choose to believe this rumor (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/01/on_michaels_for.html), which has the Phillies desperately dangling Michaels and actually enamored of Kelly Shoppach. Ah, if only...
I'd do cartwheels.

Dooley Womack
01-24-06, 11:02 PM
Hoping for B, but preparing myself for A. And about three months of Adam Stern and Alex Gonzalez at the bottom of the order.

On the bright(er) (?) side...I choose to believe this rumor (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/01/on_michaels_for.html), which has the Phillies desperately dangling Michaels and actually enamored of Kelly Shoppach. Ah, if only...

As I said earlier in this thread, I like Michaels. He fits what is believed to be the Theo/James mold too - young, cheap, lots potential (which I believe he'll realize if he plays 150+) and has proven he can get on base. I'd HATE it if that proposed deal you mention becomes a reality.

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 11:05 PM
As I said earlier in this thread, I like Michaels. He fits what is believed to be the Theo/James mold too - young, cheap, lots potential (which I believe he'll realize if he plays 150+) and has proven he can get on base. I'd HATE it if that deal you mention becomes a reality.

Not disagreeing with you, Dooley, but Michaels is a shadow of the player that Crisp is, and three years older, and (bluntly) by all accounts, not as nice of a human being. (Which, admittedly, may or may not be meaningful...Lord knows nobody minded Albert Belle being Albert Belle while he was hitting like Albert Belle.)

scull567
01-24-06, 11:05 PM
But Katz said Mota's arm ''was good enough for Florida, good enough for Boston, and good enough for James Andrews, who cleared him."

Indians take a closer look at Mota (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/24/indians_take_a_closer_look_at_mota/)

Looks like Shapiro is trying to fleece the Sox,

Dooley Womack
01-24-06, 11:14 PM
Indians take a closer look at Mota (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/24/indians_take_a_closer_look_at_mota/)

Looks like Shapiro is trying to fleece the Sox,

You have to admit that in this particular instance, the Indians are the team with the leverage, given that the Sox have the more desperate need. Marte is obviously desirable to the Indians, but I'm sure they can live with Crisp.

I can't blame the Indians. It's not unlike what the Sox have been doing the past couple of years (pulling back, asking for more), most recently in the Beckett/Mota deal.

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 11:17 PM
You have to admit that in this particular instance, the Indians are the team with the leverage, given that the Sox have the more desperate need. Marte is obviously desirable to the Indians, but I'm sure they can live with Crisp in center.

I can't blame the Indians. It's not unlike what the Sox have been doing the past couple of years (pulling back, asking for more), most recently in the Beckett/Mota deal.

Nope. Nothing wrong with what the Indians are doing, which is probably best described as hardball negotiating. They need to be careful not to overplay their hand, I suppose, if they really want Marte, but being "stuck" with Crisp is not a bad fallback position at all.

Dooley Womack
01-24-06, 11:19 PM
Nope. Nothing wrong with what the Indians are doing, which is probably best described as hardball negotiating. They need to be careful not to overplay their hand, I suppose, if they really want Marte, but being "stuck" with Crisp is not a bad fallback position at all.

Exactly. Plus they got the Sox and many of their fans juices flowing and whet their appetites, which can't hurt.

scull567
01-24-06, 11:19 PM
You have to admit that in this particular instance, the Indians are actullay the team with leverage, given that the Sox have the bigger need. Marte is obviously desirable to the Indians, but I'm sure they can live with Crisp in center.

I can't blame the Indians. It's not unlike what the Sox have been doing the past couple of years, most recently in the Beckett/Mota deal.

I completely agree. I just hope the Sox don't bite and start giving up more. They've already given up enough imo in this trade. The Indians don't need to move Crisp and are trying to squeeze as much out of this deal as possible. The Red Sox need to recognize this and stand their ground.

Dooley Womack
01-24-06, 11:22 PM
I completely agree. I just hope the Sox don't bite and start giving up more. They've already given up enough imo in this trade. The Indians don't need to move Crisp and are trying to squeeze as much out of this deal as possible. The Red Sox need to recognize this and stand their ground.

To your advantage, Theo isn't a moron and Lucchino is stingy, so I doubt they'll bite or give up the store.

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 11:28 PM
To your advantage, Theo isn't a moron and Lucchino is stingy, so I doubt they'll bite or give up the store.

Which may well mean the deal is dead, if Shapiro says too much and backs himself into a corner. At some point, accepting Mota as part of the deal would be losing face, and we might have already crossed that point. So unless the Indians would be happy taking Seanez or the Sox are dumb enough to throw Delcarmen into the mix, it might be very hard to put something back together.

JDPNYY
01-25-06, 01:00 AM
How good is Marte?

parkerstrong
01-25-06, 01:06 AM
Which may well mean the deal is dead, if Shapiro says too much and backs himself into a corner. At some point, accepting Mota as part of the deal would be losing face, and we might have already crossed that point. So unless the Indians would be happy taking Seanez or the Sox are dumb enough to throw Delcarmen into the mix, it might be very hard to put something back together.

Seanez can't be traded because he was signed as a free agent. I believe he is untradeable until June 15th.

Mystic Merlyn
01-25-06, 05:34 AM
How good is Marte?

He's probably like Cobb, Mantle and DiMaggio combined, except he is much prettier than any of them.

NYDCYankee
01-25-06, 05:37 AM
He's probably like Cobb, Mantle and DiMaggio combined, except he is much prettier than any of them.

He can also pitch like Walter Johnson. Just better.

utopiapkwy
01-25-06, 07:21 AM
From ESPM.com:

"A deal that would send Cleveland Indians outfielder Coco Crisp to the Boston Red Sox for pitcher Guillermo Mota and third base prospect Andy Marte was endangered when the right-handed reliever failed a physical in Cleveland.

The uncertainty surrounding that trade also put in question a spinoff deal in which the Indians would send left-handed reliever Arthur Rhodes to the Philadelphia Phillies for outfielder Jason Michaels."



http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2305062

jbauer2485
01-25-06, 07:55 AM
From ESPM.com:

"A deal that would send Cleveland Indians outfielder Coco Crisp to the Boston Red Sox for pitcher Guillermo Mota and third base prospect Andy Marte was endangered when the right-handed reliever failed a physical in Cleveland.

The uncertainty surrounding that trade also put in question a spinoff deal in which the Indians would send left-handed reliever Arthur Rhodes to the Philadelphia Phillies for outfielder Jason Michaels."



http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2305062

Red Sox fans are pretty certain the deal will still go down, what do you think?

MisterNovember
01-25-06, 10:22 AM
Red Sox fans are pretty certain the deal will still go down, what do you think?

Hmmm, this might turn out to be nothing, if you remember Jaret Wright failed his initial physical with the Yankees last offseason, yet still wound up signing. Perhaps the Sox will have to sweeten the pot a little bit, but I have a feeling they will get this done.

goin for 27
01-25-06, 10:54 AM
How good is Marte?

That is the million dollar question. Outrageously good numbers, both average and power at a very young age. Supposedly can't miss All-Star.

However, the Braves dealt him for a struggling Renteria, and the Sox are about to move him as well. Do they know something others don't? Who knows?

Certainly Crisp is a very fine player, young and cost controlled. To get him you have to provide value.

Marte is just that. If Marte becomes Mike Schmidt, the Red Sox obviously fumble badly. If he is Sean Burroughs, Corey Patterson, Ruben Mateo, or Drew Henson, then the Sox hit a home run.

I would try hard to keep Marte at all costs, if I were the Red Sox. Also, I hate it if they get Crisp, but I never thought that these guys would not be competitive with the Yanks next year, so game on.

dartek
01-25-06, 11:08 AM
So unless the Indians would be happy taking Seanez or the Sox are dumb enough to throw Delcarmen into the mix, it might be very hard to put something back together.
Such actions by the Sox FO might prompt a tantrum from me the likes of which Dooley has been so eager to see from Sox fans on this board. Screaming, ranting, tearing of hair. I woud do you proud Dools. ;)

terminator
01-25-06, 11:21 AM
Apparently, the recently fired Reds GM killed a 3 way trade which would have sent Kearns to Cleveland, Crisp to Boston and Matt Clement to Cincinnati.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2305550

http://www.journal-news.com/sports/content/sports/stories/2006/01/24/hjn0125redsweb.html

Personally, I would be shocked if a trade involving Clement could net a player like Crisp. But if the trade scenario is revisited by the teams, and goes through - well there will be a lot of drinking in RSN.

AnibalTheCannibal
01-25-06, 11:24 AM
That is the million dollar question. Outrageously good numbers, both average and power at a very young age. Supposedly can't miss All-Star.

However, the Braves dealt him for a struggling Renteria, and the Sox are about to move him as well. Do they know something others don't? Who knows?

Certainly Crisp is a very fine player, young and cost controlled. To get him you have to provide value.

Marte is just that. If Marte becomes Mike Schmidt, the Red Sox obviously fumble badly. If he is Sean Burroughs, Corey Patterson, Ruben Mateo, or Drew Henson, then the Sox hit a home run.

I would try hard to keep Marte at all costs, if I were the Red Sox. Also, I hate it if they get Crisp, but I never thought that these guys would not be competitive with the Yanks next year, so game on.

That's how I feel. If I ran the Sox, I'd keep Marte. Hopefully with the Reds (allegedly) trying to get back in the picture, we can swing that Clement, cash, Shoppach, and possibly Manny Delcarmen in the three way and end up with Crisp and Riske anyways.

Workhorse
01-25-06, 11:37 AM
Apparently, the recently fired Reds GM killed a 3 way trade which would have sent Kearns to Cleveland, Crisp to Boston and Matt Clement to Cincinnati.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2305550

http://www.journal-news.com/sports/content/sports/stories/2006/01/24/hjn0125redsweb.html

Personally, I would be shocked if a trade involving Clement could net a player like Crisp. But if the trade scenario is revisited by the teams, and goes through - well there will be a lot of drinking in RSN.

If the Sox get Crisp without dealing Marte, Lester, Papelbon or Hansen, I'll wet myself with excitement.

Seriously, if trading Clement gets you Crisp, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-25-06, 11:41 AM
If the Sox get Crisp without dealing Marte, Lester, Papelbon or Hansen, I'll wet myself with excitement.

Seriously, if trading Clement gets you Crisp, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I doubt that will happen, there has to be more to the rumored deals going around.

Workhorse
01-25-06, 11:44 AM
I doubt that will happen, there has to be more to the rumored deals going around.

It does seem too good to be true, from the Red Sox perspective.

But, as we found out with Schilling, lopsided trades do happen from time to time.

BJG
01-25-06, 11:46 AM
I doubt that will happen, there has to be more to the rumored deals going around.

It's my understanding that Marte is still included and the Indians end up with both Kearns and Marte and give something back to the Red Sox.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-25-06, 11:46 AM
It does seem too good to be true, from the Red Sox perspective.

But, as we found out with Schilling, lopsided trades do happen from time to time.

Yeah but as of right now the Indians arent pissed off at the Yankees. Well at least I dont think they are.

Workhorse
01-25-06, 11:50 AM
It's my understanding that Marte is still included and the Indians end up with both Kearns and Marte and give something back to the Red Sox.

If this is true (and I think logic says you are probably correct), then Young Master Theo should be on the horn to Cinci IMMEDIATELY and deal with them directly for a Kearns-Clement swap.

If Kearns can't get you Crisp, you hold on to Austin as your fallback. Either way, I wouldn't deal Marte to Cleveland at this point at all.

jeterjuice
01-25-06, 11:59 AM
If this is true (and I think logic says you are probably correct), then Young Master Theo should be on the horn to Cinci IMMEDIATELY and deal with them directly for a Kearns-Clement swap.

If Kearns can't get you Crisp, you hold on to Austin as your fallback. Either way, I wouldn't deal Marte to Cleveland at this point at all.


Agreed. Marte for Crisp was probably a little rich for Boston, and being able to upgrade from Mota to Riske was the equalizer. Right now being able to unload Clement for Kearns while keeping Marte seems like their best first step. Whereas Cleveland preferred Kearns over Michaels to begin with, along with Cincy's interest in Clement, suddenly the Mota physical "failure" in the wake of the turnover in Cincy is looking rather fortuitous.

ojo
01-25-06, 01:06 PM
Agreed. Marte for Crisp was probably a little rich for Boston, and being able to upgrade from Mota to Riske was the equalizer. Right now being able to unload Clement for Kearns while keeping Marte seems like their best first step. Whereas Cleveland preferred Kearns over Michaels to begin with, along with Cincy's interest in Clement, suddenly the Mota physical "failure" in the wake of the turnover in Cincy is looking rather fortuitous.

i fail to see cleveland's need to be party to this deal when it no longer nets them a third baseman. unless of course, they're pissed off at the yankees like another poster suggested.

BJG
01-25-06, 01:10 PM
If this is true (and I think logic says you are probably correct), then Young Master Theo should be on the horn to Cinci IMMEDIATELY and deal with them directly for a Kearns-Clement swap.

If Kearns can't get you Crisp, you hold on to Austin as your fallback. Either way, I wouldn't deal Marte to Cleveland at this point at all.

The way it appears to be panning out is that the Red Sox send Clement, Marte, and Shoppach to the Indians for Crisp, Riske, and Bard so that the Indians can then send Clement and something else to Cincy for Kearns. So, in order to get Kearns straight from Cincy, you 1) need more than just Clement and 2) probably shut yourself out of getting Crisp because now you've gone behind the backs of a team you were dealing with for him. It appears that Theo et al want Crisp as badly as Shapiro wants Marte, so I just don't think that will happen.

Dooley Womack
01-25-06, 01:26 PM
Such actions by the Sox FO might prompt a tantrum from me the likes of which Dooley has been so eager to see from Sox fans on this board. Screaming, ranting, tearing of hair. I woud do you proud Dools. ;)

I want the video....or pictures, at least.

ryanthe13th
01-25-06, 02:48 PM
Boston should probably start looking for another CFer right now. They probably still could net Crisp, but it's going to cost them more than what they initially had going. A lot more. And Riske probably won't be included in the package.

ShaneTravis
01-26-06, 04:25 AM
http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1138267857217260.xml&coll=2


A decision on the Coco Crisp trade could be reached today.

If negotiations continued to go the way they did Wednesday afternoon, Crisp might be staying in Cleveland instead of playing center field for Boston.


The foundation of the trade remains the same. Crisp, right-hander David Riske and catcher Josh Bard would go to Boston for third base prospect Andy Marte, catcher Kelly Shoppach and Mota. The Indians would then trade left-hander Arthur Rhodes to Philadelphia for Jason Michaels, who would replace Crisp in left field.


Right-hander Manny Delcarmen, Boston's second-round pick in 2000, was the sweetener that the Indians wanted. They feel the hard-throwing Delcarmen, who appeared in 10 games for the Red Sox last season, could help this year in the bullpen.

So, by this article it seems that Boston is to deal Marte,Shoppach,Mota and now Delcarmen for Bard,Crisp and Riske.

It might be time for Boston to stop playing, take it's toys and go home. Find a centerfielder somewhere else.

conkermaniac
01-26-06, 04:38 AM
http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1138267857217260.xml&coll=2







So, by this article it seems that Boston is to deal Marte,Shoppach,Mota and now Delcarmen for Bard,Crisp and Riske.

It might be time for Boston to stop playing, take it's toys and go home. Find a centerfielder somewhere else.
Good. I hope the Indians don't back down. If the Red Sox take this offer, it will deal a significant blow to their farm system.

SoCal Pinstriper
01-26-06, 04:56 AM
Good. I hope the Indians don't back down. If the Red Sox take this offer, it will deal a significant blow to their farm system.Not to rain on the parade, but while weakening Boston's farm is fine, I would be wary of celebrating anything that strengthens the Indians. They may not be in our division, but they will be quite a handful in '06 and seasons to come.

I would prefer that Boston find a CF in the NL to spend their good prospects on.

NYDCYankee
01-26-06, 05:09 AM
Not to rain on the parade, but while weakening Boston's farm is fine, I would be wary of celebrating anything that strengthens the Indians. They may not be in our division, but they will be quite a handful in '06 and seasons to come.

I would prefer that Boston find a CF in the NL to spend their good prospects on.

Wow that is a lot to give up but your right SP I agree, Cleveland is certainly a team to reckon with and will be for a long time.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 07:28 AM
So, by this article it seems that Boston is to deal Marte,Shoppach,Mota and now Delcarmen for Bard,Crisp and Riske.

It might be time for Boston to stop playing, take it's toys and go home. Find a centerfielder somewhere else.

Holy crap.

The Indians have just officially overplayed their hand. Granted, they had nothing to lose in asking for the moon, sand and stars, since keeping Crisp is a nice fallback position to have, but this is a clear illustration that they don't want to part with Crisp unless they can mug the Red Sox in the process. Time to move on. Kearns? Reed? Michaels? Stern? Bring 'em on. They're ALL really, really cheap in comparison.

The Red Sox, of course, shot themselves in the foot by leaking this deal before it was consummated. Now that the fans are expecting to see Crisp in center field this year, it will take a certain amount of nerve for the Sox to walk away from the table. I'm assuming that's what Theo will do, though, unless the Indians come off these demands.

Spiker101
01-26-06, 07:29 AM
Adam Stern patrolling center in Fenway works for me.

Jeez, 18 pages devoted to contemplating all the fun Shapiro is having at the expense of the Boston front office. Ah well, I suppose what goes around comes around.

Yankees1962
01-26-06, 07:33 AM
Holy crap.

The Indians have just officially overplayed their hand. Granted, they had nothing to lose in asking for the moon, sand and stars, since keeping Crisp is a nice fallback position to have, but this is a clear illustration that they don't want to part with Crisp unless they can mug the Red Sox in the process. Time to move on. Kearns? Reed? Michaels? Stern? Bring 'em on. They're ALL really, really cheap in comparison.

The Red Sox, of course, shot themselves in the foot by leaking this deal before it was consummated. Now that the fans are expecting to see Crisp in center field this year, it will take a certain amount of nerve for the Sox to walk away from the table. I'm assuming that's what Theo will do, though, unless the Indians come off these demands.
Good for the Indians and I expect the Mariners to be hardline with their trade demands too for Reed. The Sox have trading chips, but they're dealing from a position of weakness because other teams know they're in dire need for a CF.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 07:53 AM
Good for the Indians and I expect the Mariners to be hardline with their trade demands too for Reed. The Sox have trading chips, but they're dealing from a position of weakness because other teams know they're in dire need for a CF.

This is true enough now, but I expect the tables to turn a bit if the Red Sox can find a stopgap solution for the first half of the season. Jason Michaels fits that description, I think...if he can be had for Arthur Rhodes, the Red Sox can probably give up one of their spare arms for him. The options will get a lot more attractive as various teams fall away from playoff contention and look to pare salary and stockpile guys for next year.

Yankees1962
01-26-06, 07:56 AM
This is true enough now, but I expect the tables to turn a bit if the Red Sox can find a stopgap solution for the first half of the season. Jason Michaels fits that description, I think...if he can be had for Arthur Rhodes, the Red Sox can probably give up one of their spare arms for him. The options will get a lot more attractive as various teams fall away from playoff contention and look to pare salary and stockpile guys for next year.
It wasn't the case last season, when contending teams had trouble making deals in June/July timeframe because weaker teams had high demands in return for their players.

SoCal Pinstriper
01-26-06, 07:59 AM
This is true enough now, but I expect the tables to turn a bit if the Red Sox can find a stopgap solution for the first half of the season. Jason Michaels fits that description, I think...if he can be had for Arthur Rhodes, the Red Sox can probably give up one of their spare arms for him. The options will get a lot more attractive as various teams fall away from playoff contention and look to pare salary and stockpile guys for next year.I posted this in the Redsox Thread, but it seems to fit your description of a stopgap.
From Bob Nightengale's "Buzz" (halfway down on the right):



The Padres say they have a standing offer of center fielder Dave Roberts and starting pitcher Woody Williams to the Red Sox for starting pitcher David Wells.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/...25-majors_x.htm

EDIT: This is from yesterday's (1/25) column.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 08:01 AM
It wasn't the case last season, when contending teams had trouble making deals in June/July timeframe because weaker teams had high demands in return for their players.

That door swings both ways, though...those weaker teams' high demands weren't met, by and large, and nobody was happy. Anyway, I wouldn't take a one-year phenomenon and necessarily try to stretch it out into a new paradigm. In general, deals are there to be made during the regular season. Obviously, if the Sox employ a stopgap measure who sucks (for example, if they go with Adam Stern and he hits .220 with 12 errors by the All-Star break), then the other teams will STILL be holding all the cards. I just don't think that the Sox options are to capitulate to the Indians and Mariners, or get stuck with Reed. There WILL be other options.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 08:05 AM
I posted this in the Redsox Thread, but it seems to fit your description of a stopgap.
From Bob Nightengale's "Buzz" (halfway down on the right):

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/...25-majors_x.htm

EDIT: This is from yesterday's (1/25) column.

Yeah, this one has been kicking for a while...so far it's a standoff insofar as the Sox are unwilling to take on another starting pitcher (or, more accurately, another pitcher's SALARY) as the price of getting Roberts. They were willing to take Lowell to get Beckett, of course...but Roberts ain't Beckett. Indeed, Roberts has health issues that are substantial; he's never played more than 120 games in a season, and it doesn't seem right to me that the Sox would ALSO have to take on Williams, who turns 40 next year, is awful, and is gonna get paid $5 million PLUS a $67,000 per-start bonus.

SoCal Pinstriper
01-26-06, 08:09 AM
Yeah, this one has been kicking for a while...so far it's a standoff insofar as the Sox are unwilling to take on another starting pitcher (or, more accurately, another pitcher's SALARY) as the price of getting Roberts. They were willing to take Lowell to get Beckett, of course...but Roberts ain't Beckett. Indeed, Roberts has health issues that are substantial; he's never played more than 120 games in a season, and it doesn't seem right to me that the Sox would ALSO have to take on Williams, who turns 40 next year, is awful, and is gonna get paid $5 million PLUS a $67,000 per-start bonus.I would rather pay Williams than give up all the prospects mentioned in Cleveland's latest published demand. The Sox have money.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 08:15 AM
I would rather pay Williams than give up all the prospects mentioned in Cleveland's latest published demand. The Sox have money.

Agreed. I think the Red Sox are looking for a third option, one that gets them a reasonably reliable CF and doesn't cost them an arm and a leg in prospects. If Roberts had a better track record of staying healthy, I'd be a much greater proponent of taking him in a package deal with Williams.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 08:21 AM
I think if the Crisp deal DOES go down in some way, shape or form, it's going to involve the Reds, and Austin Kearns. The always reliable [/sarcasm] MLB Trade Rumors site is reporting that the three teams are talking again, with Clement going to the Reds, Kearns and Sox prospect Brandon Moss going to the Indians, and Crisp coming back to the Sox, but there are probably another couple of minor names involved in that one.

Moss is an OK prospect, and Clement certainly still has potential, but if those are the two names that bring back Crisp, I'd be all for it.

Jersey Yankee
01-26-06, 08:23 AM
Holy crap.

The Indians have just officially overplayed their hand. Granted, they had nothing to lose in asking for the moon, sand and stars, since keeping Crisp is a nice fallback position to have, but this is a clear illustration that they don't want to part with Crisp unless they can mug the Red Sox in the process. Time to move on. Kearns? Reed? Michaels? Stern? Bring 'em on. They're ALL really, really cheap in comparison.

The Red Sox, of course, shot themselves in the foot by leaking this deal before it was consummated. Now that the fans are expecting to see Crisp in center field this year, it will take a certain amount of nerve for the Sox to walk away from the table. I'm assuming that's what Theo will do, though, unless the Indians come off these demands.
I think that once the Red Sox were without Johnny Damon, the situation because what it is, in that other teams saw that the Red Sox would need a quality player, and those lower-valued teams saw a willingness to force Boston to thusly overpay. This is precisely what they'd have done to the Yankees, since the Red Sox, perhaps after having won in 2004, are now seen as another team trying to get one of the better available players for cheap.

I'm not sure why you'd want Austin Kearns (http://baseball-reference.com/k/kearnau01.shtml). Not only has he not played many games in CF since 2003 (40 in 2003; 3 since then), but he hasn't batted well since then. He's a RFer, not a CFer.

As to the Red Sox having publicized this, perhaps it was the whole "Welcome to Boston, Coco" thing (not a direct quote) that allowed Cleveland's FO to see the Boston fans' reaction, then insist that they could get more from Boston.

I also don't get why all these other players needed to be included. Reliever for reliever, catcher for catcher. Couldn't it just have been Crisp for Mota and someone else?

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 08:29 AM
I'm not sure why you'd want Austin Kearns (http://baseball-reference.com/k/kearnau01.shtml). Not only has he not played many games in CF since 2003 (40 in 2003; 3 since then), but he hasn't batted well since then. He's a RFer, not a CFer.

I also don't get why all these other players needed to be included. Reliever for reliever, catcher for catcher. Couldn't it just have been Crisp for Mota and someone else?

Well, the Sox would certainly do Crisp for Mota...doubt the Tribe would be all in favor of that. ;) (I assume you meant Crisp for Marte, and yeah, that would pretty much be an OK deal for me. Both sides get quality, and everyone goes away happy.)

As for Kearns, he DID play some center field; the logic appears to be that he can handle the position OK, even if not present himself as a GG candidate. The appeal for him is that he's a five-tool player and he's only 25, so there's still time for him to recover from the last couple of admittedly disappointing seasons. But he's certainly not as appealing an option as Crisp, and to the extent that he might be more appealing than Reed, it'd only be because the price tag might be a wee bit lower.

aeromac76
01-26-06, 08:41 AM
This is true enough now, but I expect the tables to turn a bit if the Red Sox can find a stopgap solution for the first half of the season. Jason Michaels fits that description, I think...if he can be had for Arthur Rhodes, the Red Sox can probably give up one of their spare arms for him. The options will get a lot more attractive as various teams fall away from playoff contention and look to pare salary and stockpile guys for next year.

This is not always true, and Aaron Rowand was a perfect example.
The Yankees wanted him desperately. Before they signed Damon. The White Sox countered by asking for Cano and Wang for him. Not only an aggregious asking price, but one they would not back off on and I would trade neither of them alone for Rowand, but the White Sox knew we were desperate. When they realized no deal could be reached, they simply went out and dealt Rowand for Thome, who is vastly overpriced and nearing the end of the line.
When teams know you are desperate, they'll ask for the moon. We tried to get Michaels and Reed as well while Boras was asking for 7 years for Damon and the price was always Cano and Wang. Thing is, Reed, Michaels, Rowand. These are solid players, but while we searched for a CFer and everyone knew we did not have one, these nice players became Albert Pujols. Now we have Damon and are set, but are looking for a fourth OFer who can give a little pop, we have inquired again about Michaels and the price is a lot lower because the Phillies know we won't even negotiate a major prospect for a 4th OFer. Even a guy like Austin Kearns, whereas before ther price would have been Cano and Wang and the rest of our AAA prospects, now we can stand fast by offering guys like Pavano and cash and if they don't bite, we walk.
The Sox are dealing from a position of weakness and teams know it. To get what they want, they'll need to overpay. We did for Damon but it was in $$$ not young players. Unfortunately for Boston, there really are no free agents out there in CF that stand to be nice players at this point. So the Yankees got lucky that they filled their holes by overpaying with $$, something they have plenty of, but this entire offseason we gave up not a single player of note. Now the Sox have to fill holes but it is going to take players, not just $$, to do it..

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 09:00 AM
When teams know you are desperate, they'll ask for the moon. We tried to get Michaels and Reed as well while Boras was asking for 7 years for Damon and the price was always Cano and Wang. Thing is, Reed, Michaels, Rowand. These are solid players, but while we searched for a CFer and everyone knew we did not have one, these nice players became Albert Pujols. Now we have Damon and are set, but are looking for a fourth OFer who can give a little pop, we have inquired again about Michaels and the price is a lot lower because the Phillies know we won't even negotiate a major prospect for a 4th OFer.

The price for guys like Crisp and Reed won't drop at all...not only because the Red Sox are still in the market for a CFer (and any team will go where the best deal lies), but because their teams are committed to playing Crisp and Reed UNLESS they get the kind of deal they want.

Michaels might be a different story, since the Phils seem to regard him as a fourth outfielder as well, but with the CF job still open in Boston, there's no way you'll get Michaels on the cheap, either. This might be valid once the Sox are set in center; I think they're the only team left who's still searching for a CF.

The poker game here is, do other teams believe the Red Sox will start the season with either Willie Harris or Adam Stern in center?

Rice14
01-26-06, 09:13 AM
Yeah, this one has been kicking for a while...so far it's a standoff insofar as the Sox are unwilling to take on another starting pitcher (or, more accurately, another pitcher's SALARY) as the price of getting Roberts. They were willing to take Lowell to get Beckett, of course...but Roberts ain't Beckett. Indeed, Roberts has health issues that are substantial; he's never played more than 120 games in a season, and it doesn't seem right to me that the Sox would ALSO have to take on Williams, who turns 40 next year, is awful, and is gonna get paid $5 million PLUS a $67,000 per-start bonus.

At this point, if Roberts is healthy, this is the deal the Sox should make. Even if they dump Williams immediately, they're still getting a cheap enough CF to make it up. Let's not do anything stupid out of desperation. There's always the trading deadline and even next year's free agents. I wasn't thrilled about trading Marte anyway, but accepted it because we only had him for a couple months anyways. I thought Marte for Crisp straight up was a fairly even deal, but it seems the Indians are trying to squeeze us a bit too much. Let's just get up and walk away and keep our prospects where they are.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 09:33 AM
At this point, if Roberts is healthy, this is the deal the Sox should make. Even if they dump Williams immediately, they're still getting a cheap enough CF to make it up. Let's not do anything stupid out of desperation. There's always the trading deadline and even next year's free agents. I wasn't thrilled about trading Marte anyway, but accepted it because we only had him for a couple months anyways. I thought Marte for Crisp straight up was a fairly even deal, but it seems the Indians are trying to squeeze us a bit too much. Let's just get up and walk away and keep our prospects where they are.

I agree that we should walk away from Crisp at these prices. But Dave Roberts? AND Woody Williams?

I absolutely love Dave Roberts, and I'm sure no one here has to ask me why. But much the way I wouldn't want to sign Bernie Carbo to be my starting center fielder, I really cringe at Dave Roberts being plan A, especially if he comes saddled with the $5-6 million liability that is Woody Williams. Last year was the first in Roberts' career where he played a full season and managed an OPS+ over 100. That's not good. Roberts only played 115 games, though I'm not sure if that was due to injury or coach's decision. Defensively, he was below average (FRAR of -2, ZR of .875). Giving up Wells for Roberts is about right, I guess...a replacement-level pitcher for a replacement-level outfielder...but then throw in Williams, and I can't imagine it. In effect, we'd be paying $8 million for Roberts to play center (I'm assuming Williams would just get released). That's not much dumber than paying Wells $9 million to pitch, I suppose, but I'd like to see the Pads eat some of Williams' contract, at least.

The good news is, this is a "standing offer," so if the Sox can't pry Crisp loose from the Indians (or Michaels from the Phillies), this isn't the worst move they could make. It's definitely Plan C or D, though.

Rice14
01-26-06, 09:55 AM
I agree that we should walk away from Crisp at these prices. But Dave Roberts? AND Woody Williams?

I absolutely love Dave Roberts, and I'm sure no one here has to ask me why. But much the way I wouldn't want to sign Bernie Carbo to be my starting center fielder, I really cringe at Dave Roberts being plan A, especially if he comes saddled with the $5-6 million liability that is Woody Williams. Last year was the first in Roberts' career where he played a full season and managed an OPS+ over 100. That's not good. Roberts only played 115 games, though I'm not sure if that was due to injury or coach's decision. Defensively, he was below average (FRAR of -2, ZR of .875). Giving up Wells for Roberts is about right, I guess...a replacement-level pitcher for a replacement-level outfielder...but then throw in Williams, and I can't imagine it. In effect, we'd be paying $8 million for Roberts to play center (I'm assuming Williams would just get released). That's not much dumber than paying Wells $9 million to pitch, I suppose, but I'd like to see the Pads eat some of Williams' contract, at least.

The good news is, this is a "standing offer," so if the Sox can't pry Crisp loose from the Indians (or Michaels from the Phillies), this isn't the worst move they could make. It's definitely Plan C or D, though.

Believe me, I'm not touting Dave Roberts as a good thing, I'm just saying I think that filling the CF position is going to be a losing proposition for us at this point and it's starting to seem like the lesser of all evils. The Red Sox are in a corner and unless someone pulls off a small miracle, the Sox are going to have to overpay. I'd rather overpay for a contract that will last one year then a prospect who could help us for many more to come. Obviously, it's not my money so it's pretty easy for me to talk about dumping 5 million so easily.

Again, I would do Marte for Crisp straight up, but even that has me thinking long and hard. Mota for Riske was a win for Cleveland IMO, if Mota was healthy. Bard for Shoppach was also a win for Cleveland, although I don't think Kelly will be more than a competent backup for some team. I thought Cleveland was already getting a bit too much, I'm not crazy about piling on more.

Workhorse
01-26-06, 10:16 AM
I still feel like letting Manny Delcarmen stand in the way of a deal to acquire Crisp might be a bad move. I'm not in love with his stuff at all. In fact, I'd almost rather keep Mota and deal DelCarmen...

dartek
01-26-06, 10:28 AM
I am getting closer and closer to that tantrum.

Hildy910
01-26-06, 11:39 AM
I love MDC, and particularly that he's a Boston kid--well 95-97 mph fastball doesn't hurt, either. I'd much rather we send Mota. But I'd even more rather that we keep Marte. This sounds like a great deal for the Sox, imho.

ETA: I'm not sure if this was posted in this thread yet, I think not. My 'keeping Marte' point was in reference to a radio report in Canton where the guy reported a new three-way deal that works like this:

Cleveland --Westbrook to the Reds for Kearns
Boston --Clement, Shoppach and MDC to Cleveland for Crisp and Riske
Cleveland gets: Kearns, Clement, MDC and Shoppach

Andy Marte would not be moved at all.

No direct link, and just a rumor--they're discussing it on SoSH.

ieddyi
01-26-06, 12:02 PM
I love MDC, and particularly that he's a Boston kid--well 95-97 mph fastball doesn't hurt, either. I'd much rather we send Mota. But I'd even more rather that we keep Marte. This sounds like a great deal for the Sox, imho.

ETA: I'm not sure if this was posted in this thread yet, I think not. My 'keeping Marte' point was in reference to a radio report in Canton where the guy reported a new three-way deal that works like this:

Cleveland would send Westbrook to the Reds for Kearns
Boston would send Clement, Shoppach and MDC to Cleveland for Crisp and Riske
Cleveland would net: Kearns , Clement , MDC and Shoppach ....

Andy Marte would not be moved at all.

No link, and just a rumor.


THat's a big step down from the other deal for cleveland- I just don't see it.

Westbrook is as good a pitcher as Clement and a lot cheaper also. IF they can get Micheals for Rhodes, why mess w/ Kearns who is much more iffy.

Rice14
01-26-06, 12:09 PM
I love MDC, and particularly that he's a Boston kid--well 95-97 mph fastball doesn't hurt, either. I'd much rather we send Mota. But I'd even more rather that we keep Marte. This sounds like a great deal for the Sox, imho.

ETA: I'm not sure if this was posted in this thread yet, I think not. My 'keeping Marte' point was in reference to a radio report in Canton where the guy reported a new three-way deal that works like this:

Cleveland would send Westbrook to the Reds for Kearns
Boston would send Clement, Shoppach and MDC to Cleveland for Crisp and Riske
Cleveland would net: Kearns , Clement , MDC and Shoppach ....

Andy Marte would not be moved at all.

No link, and just a rumor.

Now, that's a trade I'd like.

No way Cleveland would do that trade.

Hildy910
01-26-06, 12:19 PM
For some reason, I thought that Cle preferred Kearns. I'm not sure where I picked that up, tho.
I would assume that Boston would help with Clement's salary, which makes this deal even more unlikely. But one can dream......

ETA: Dale and Holley are discussing this trade on EEI. They are crediting the Ackron Beacon-Journal, but still can't find a link.

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 12:54 PM
Cleveland --Westbrook to the Reds for Kearns
Boston --Clement, Shoppach and MDC to Cleveland for Crisp and Riske
Cleveland gets: Kearns, Clement, MDC and Shoppach

Andy Marte would not be moved at all.
Sheldon Ocker, who is the Indians' beat writer for the Akron Beacon Journal, apparently reported this version on a Cleveland sports radio station a little while ago.

The kicker is that, according to Ocker, the Phillies would be placated (since they're being cut out of the Rhodes-Michaels swap that was agreed to) by the Red Sox sending them Mota + $$$ for Michaels.

If Boston pulls this off -- getting Crisp without giving up Marte, and then getting Michaels as the 4th OFer for Mota, I will have a sportsgasm.

And the chants of "All Hail King Theo" will be heard throughout New England.

So I don't really believe it. Too good to be true.

Edit: Two small additions to the reported trade you outlined above: The Sox give OF prospect Brandon Moss (who ends up in Cincy) and the Sox get Bard from the Indians to offset the loss of Shoppach. That's according to Ocker.

Workhorse
01-26-06, 01:09 PM
If this is true, then who in the world leaked it?

Supposedly, the original Marte/Mota deal was squashed by an angry Shapiro who was furious that the deal leaked to the press. If that's the case, then why would this potential deal be leaked to a Tribe beat writer? Especially since most of us would agree that the Indians end up WORSE off in this one...

38Special
01-26-06, 01:41 PM
Because it's made up?

The Indians downgrade from Crisp to Kearns, downgrade from Westbrook to Clement (especially when you consider the bad contract that remains), and then net a backup catcher and AAA reliever for Riske?

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 01:42 PM
If this is true, then who in the world leaked it?

Beats me, but it must be someone in Cleveland or Cincinnati. The Red Sox FO is airtight. ;)

The FUTURE
01-26-06, 01:50 PM
Cleveland --Westbrook to the Reds for Kearns
Boston --Clement, Shoppach and MDC to Cleveland for Crisp and Riske
Cleveland gets: Kearns, Clement, MDC and Shoppach


I think you got this deal a little bit twisted, here's simular deals i found.

Rumor has it that Cincy, Cleveland and Boston are reviving the 3 team, 9 player trade involving Kearns...
"It is also believed that the Reds are interested in reviving the three-team talks that would produce a nine-player swap, in which Matt Clement would go to Cincinnati."
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/s...rticleid=120202



Hopefully you just got things mixed up and weren't tryin to just make deals up :o

38Special
01-26-06, 01:52 PM
I think you got this deal a little bit twisted, here's simular deals i found.

Rumor has it that Cincy, Cleveland and Boston are reviving the 3 team, 9 player trade involving Kearns...
"It is also believed that the Reds are interested in reviving the three-team talks that would produce a nine-player swap, in which Matt Clement would go to Cincinnati."
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/s...rticleid=120202



Hopefully you just got things mixed up and weren't tryin to just make deals up :o

Uhh, what he posted is from a beat writer today, while yours is old

NDBoston
01-26-06, 01:52 PM
Because it's made up?

The Indians downgrade from Crisp to Kearns, downgrade from Westbrook to Clement (especially when you consider the bad contract that remains), and then net a backup catcher and AAA reliever for Riske?

I believe it's simple as this.

The Red Sox will trade Mota to Philly directly with some dollars thrown in to sweeten the deal. Michaels will then replace Mota and the 6 player deal goes through as rumored.

Marte, Shoppach and Michaels for

Riske, Crisp and the stiff.

The FUTURE
01-26-06, 01:55 PM
Uhh, what he posted is from a beat writer today, while yours is old


oh, i googled it and thats what i found, sorry

38Special
01-26-06, 02:05 PM
I believe it's simple as this.

The Red Sox will trade Mota to Philly directly with some dollars thrown in to sweeten the deal. Michaels will then replace Mota and the 6 player deal goes through as rumored.

Marte, Shoppach and Michaels for

Riske, Crisp and the stiff.

The problem is that Mota for Michaels is not going to happen now. #1 they know the Red Sox have a need and want that Crisp deal to happen. #2, why would they want Mota now? After bombing last year and having multiple injury problems, he fails a physical. Rhodes at least made some sense and was healthy last year.

Also, if Theo is as smart as people say he is, if somehow he were to get Michaels, I dont see why he would trade Marte and Michaels for Crisp. That's just crazy

Kangamangus
01-26-06, 02:05 PM
I believe it's simple as this.

The Red Sox will trade Mota to Philly directly with some dollars thrown in to sweeten the deal. Michaels will then replace Mota and the 6 player deal goes through as rumored.

Marte, Shoppach and Michaels for

Riske, Crisp and the stiff.

Well then wouldn't the Sox just keep Michaels if they were able to do a deal like this? I would rather have them get Michaels to play cf and retain Marte rather than getting Crisp. Then again, the Phillies might ask for more players because they know they have the Sox between a rock and a hard place.

NDBoston
01-26-06, 02:16 PM
The problem is that Mota for Michaels is not going to happen now. #1 they know the Red Sox have a need and want that Crisp deal to happen. #2, why would they want Mota now? After bombing last year and having multiple injury problems, he fails a physical. Rhodes at least made some sense and was healthy last year.

Also, if Theo is as smart as people say he is, if somehow he were to get Michaels, I dont see why he would trade Marte and Michaels for Crisp. That's just crazy

IT's been reported in Cleveland that Mota didn't fail his physical. It's either Shapiro had cold feet on the deal or he simply like Kearns more and think he's available now with the Cincinnati GM fired.

Perhaps it's not Mota but I'm betting the Red Sox might be talking with Philly directly now.

NDBoston
01-26-06, 02:17 PM
Well then wouldn't the Sox just keep Michaels if they were able to do a deal like this? I would rather have them get Michaels to play cf and retain Marte rather than getting Crisp. Then again, the Phillies might ask for more players because they know they have the Sox between a rock and a hard place.

When did Jason Michaels become Joe Dimaggio? He's got question marks with two arrests in less than a year and never had over 300 at bats in a season.

Spiker101
01-26-06, 02:21 PM
I believe it's simple as this.

The Red Sox will trade Mota to Philly directly with some dollars thrown in to sweeten the deal. Michaels will then replace Mota and the 6 player deal goes through as rumored.

Marte, Shoppach and Michaels for

Riske, Crisp and the stiff.

Now, you're talking. This deal actually makes sense for all concerned. The Indians get a decent LF sub for Crisp, the promising young 3B who might be ready by midseason and even if he's not, Marte can't be any worse that Boone was last year, and they get a slight upgrade at backup catcher, all the while hanging onto Rhodes.

Sox get a young CF worthy of a playoff contending team, a replacement for Mota and another body to choose from this spring when they go to selecting a backup catcher.

Given the relative power positions of the two teams, it's the best the Sox can hope for and for the Indians it's a good use of their best trading chip and a reliever who will be a free agent after '06 and who they apparently don't think much of anyway.

Now get it done and end my misery.

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 02:21 PM
When did Jason Michaels become Joe Dimaggio? He's got question marks with two arrests in less than a year and never had over 300 at bats in a season.
Marte + Michaels > Crisp. It's not even close.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 02:22 PM
When did Jason Michaels become Joe Dimaggio? He's got question marks with two arrests in less than a year and never had over 300 at bats in a season.

Agreed.

Still...do I want to roll the dice with Michaels in center this year, keeping Marte in Pawtucket and eventually in Boston? Or do I want Crisp in center (yes), Riske in the pen (yes)...and Marte making the All-Star team out of Cleveland for the next ten years?

NDBoston
01-26-06, 02:23 PM
Marte + Michaels > Crisp. It's not even close.

It's not just Crisp. Riske is a decent pitcher too.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 02:24 PM
Marte + Michaels > Crisp. It's not even close.

Where that could bite the Red Sox in the ass is if Lowell plays well and Michaels doesn't. Obviously, Marte is a great player to have in the wings, but center field stands a greater chance of remaining a black hole than if Crisp is out there.

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 02:25 PM
It's not just Crisp. Riske is a decent pitcher too.
And in your scenario the Red Sox are giving up Shoppach and Mota, too.

It's a bad trade for Boston if one of the alternatives is Mota + $$$ for Michaels.

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 02:26 PM
Where that could bite the Red Sox in the ass is if Lowell plays well and Michaels doesn't. Obviously, Marte is a great player to have in the wings, but center field stands a greater chance of remaining a black hole than if Crisp is out there.
If you all care about is 2006, then you're right. I'm willing to take the gamble that 2006 goes up in flames in order to keep Marte.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 02:28 PM
If you all care about is 2006, then you're right. I'm willing to take the gamble that 2006 goes up in flames in order to keep Marte.

You're thinking of Crisp as a one-year deal? He's as much of a "foundation" player as Marte is (albeit with not quite as high a ceiling).

Spiker101
01-26-06, 02:28 PM
Marte + Michaels > Crisp. It's not even close.

Marte + Michaels > Crisp + Riske. Probably, but as close to even as the Sox are probably going to get in their current situation. If Boston wants a legit CFer they're going to have to pay a surcharge.

As for keeping Michaels and using him in center, picture in your mind this outfield, from left to right: Manny, Michaels, Nixon.

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 02:30 PM
You're thinking of Crisp as a one-year deal? He's as much of a "foundation" player as Marte is (albeit with not quite as high a ceiling).
No, you were talking about how trading for Michaels and keeping Marte could "bite them in the ass" if Michaels doesn't play well. That's thinking only of 2006.

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 02:31 PM
Marte + Michaels > Crisp + Riske. Probably, but as close to even as the Sox are probably going to get in their current situation. If Boston wants a legit CFer they're going to have to pay a surcharge.

As for keeping Michaels and using him in center, picture in your mind this outfield, from left to right: Manny, Michaels, Nixon.
Take a closer look at Riske's peripherals and ask why the Indians refused to use him down the stretch of a pennant race last year, and why they apparently see an injured and possibly washed up Mota as an upgrade.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 02:31 PM
No, you were talking about how trading for Michaels and keeping Marter could "bite them in the ass" if Michaels doesn't play well. That's thinking only of 2006.

If Michaels doesn't play well AND Lowell does. And in that case, it bites them in the ass in 2007, too, because Lowell is around for at least that long. And Marte is blocked. Unless Marte can play center or shortstop, of course.

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 02:35 PM
If Michaels doesn't play well AND Lowell does. And in that case, it bites them in the ass in 2007, too, because Lowell is around for at least that long. And Marte is blocked. Unless Marte can play center or shortstop, of course.
I'm not going to lose too much sleep about how the Red Sox would be screwed if Mike Lowell plays well. That possibility seems like an odd reason to be willing to part with Marte.

If they trade for Michaels and he's awful, then their chances in 2006 are hurt. And in 2007, they have a core of Beckett, Papelbon, Lester, Hansen, Pedroia and Marte.

I like Crisp, and I have no doubt he'd help the team in 2006 and likely beyond. But I don't think trading Marte for him is a good move.

Spiker101
01-26-06, 02:37 PM
If Michaels doesn't play well AND Lowell does. And in that case, it bites them in the ass in 2007, too, because Lowell is around for at least that long. And Marte is blocked. Unless Marte can play center or shortstop, of course.

I'm not sure I understand that. If Lowell plays well in '06, why can't the Sox trade him in the offseason for whatever piece they might need in '07 and free third for Marte? And simply let Michaels loose?

Workhorse
01-26-06, 02:38 PM
I'm not going to lose too much sleep about how the Red Sox would be screwed if Mike Lowell plays well. That possibility seems like an odd reason to be willing to part with Marte.

If they trade for Michaels and he's awful, then their chances in 2006 are hurt. And in 2007, they have a core of Beckett, Papelbon, Lester, Hansen, Pedroia and Marte.

I like Crisp, and I have no doubt he'd help the team in 2006 and likely beyond. But I don't think trading Marte for him is a good move.

I tend to agree with you, but not necessarily because I think Marte is a lock in 2007 and beyond:

The Sox would most certainly stow away Marte at Pawtucket for 2006, for the majority of the year. He's already shown the ability to hit AAA pitching and McCoy is a bandbox. I could see Marte easily putting up unreal numbers there -- Which would shoot his potential trade value through the roof. If the Sox hold on to Marte for one more year, they very well could ask for a king's ransom to trade him away after this year.

It's the buy low, sell high theory in full effect.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 03:11 PM
I'm not going to lose too much sleep about how the Red Sox would be screwed if Mike Lowell plays well. That possibility seems like an odd reason to be willing to part with Marte.


I'm not sure I understand that. If Lowell plays well in '06, why can't the Sox trade him in the offseason for whatever piece they might need in '07 and free third for Marte? And simply let Michaels loose?

I guess I'm not being clear. (Alert the presses!) What I'm saying is that I agree that Marte has a higher upside than Crisp, but since Crisp a.) has already produced on the MLB level, and b.) fills a current need, I'm not as concerned with the disparity between the two. We are a stronger team over the next two years with Lowell at third, Crisp in center and Riske in the pen, than we would be with Lowell at third, Harris/Stern in center, Mota in the pen and Marte in the minors.

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 03:12 PM
The chances of Coco Crisp landing in Boston seem to be shrinking by the hour.

The Red Sox and Indians continued to talk to each other -- as well as to a potential third club, the Reds -- on Thursday. But there were indications that the Indians were beginning to have second thoughts about dealing Crisp.

An official of one team that spoke with the Indians reported Thursday he got the impression the odds of Cleveland trading Crisp had sunk below 50-50.
Jayson Stark (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2307396)

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 03:24 PM
I guess I'm not being clear. (Alert the presses!) What I'm saying is that I agree that Marte has a higher upside than Crisp, but since Crisp a.) has already produced on the MLB level, and b.) fills a current need, I'm not as concerned with the disparity between the two.
If that's what you were trying to say with the Michaels/Lowell stuff then yes, you were being a little unclear. :P

I can't really disagree with your two points there. And I'm not saying Marte-Crisp would be an awful trade that would doom the Red Sox. I could live with it. But IMO, Marte is the type of prospect that you gamble on. You take the chance that the team in 2006 is not as strong in order to have the possibility of having him in the middle of your lineup from 2007-2012. I also think that Crisp is getting a little overhyped (as some say Marte is). Just because he's 26 doesn't mean he's guaranteed to get better. We may have seen his best.


We are a stronger team over the next two years with Lowell at third, Crisp in center and Riske in the pen, than we would be with Lowell at third, Harris/Stern in center, Mota in the pen and Marte in the minors.
Well remember, the context of this discussion was the possibility of getting Michaels for Mota and keeping him, as opposed to packaging him with Marte for Crisp. I don't believe there's any chance they open the season with Harris/Stern as their top options, but there's a game of chicken going on and it may last into spring training.

38Special
01-26-06, 03:27 PM
Take a closer look at Riske's peripherals and ask why the Indians refused to use him down the stretch of a pennant race last year, and why they apparently see an injured and possibly washed up Mota as an upgrade.
I agree.

Prickly Pete
01-26-06, 03:35 PM
I agree.
Me too.

Kulish29
01-26-06, 03:47 PM
If Michaels doesn't play well AND Lowell does. And in that case, it bites them in the ass in 2007, too, because Lowell is around for at least that long. And Marte is blocked. Unless Marte can play center or shortstop, of course.

Couldnt they always convert Marte to first?

RhodeyYankee2638
01-26-06, 03:57 PM
Couldnt they always convert Marte to first?

1st is a very demanding position, they should just trade him away, Lowell is just that good

Hildy910
01-26-06, 04:18 PM
Uhh, what he posted is from a beat writer today, while yours is old


Thank you, but I need to make a small correction in that I am in fact of the female persuasion.

Spiker101
01-26-06, 05:06 PM
Take a closer look at Riske's peripherals and ask why the Indians refused to use him down the stretch of a pennant race last year, and why they apparently see an injured and possibly washed up Mota as an upgrade.

No, I understand Riske's not much and has a tendency to lose it under pressure. Plus, he's a free agent after '06. I just don't think Boston's in any position to play tough, if they want a player like Crisp. Frankly, I don't know why the Sox are bothering. Even with Crisp I don't think they can run with the Yanks, or the White Sox. If I were running the team, I'd be in rebuilding mode.

Spiker101
01-26-06, 05:14 PM
I
What I'm saying is that I agree that Marte has a higher upside than Crisp, but since Crisp a.) has already produced on the MLB level, and b.) fills a current need, I'm not as concerned with the disparity between the two. We are a stronger team over the next two years with Lowell at third, Crisp in center and Riske in the pen, than we would be with Lowell at third, Harris/Stern in center, Mota in the pen and Marte in the minors.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

Kangamangus
01-26-06, 05:42 PM
No, I understand Riske's not much and has a tendency to lose it under pressure. Plus, he's a free agent after '06. I just don't think Boston's in any position to play tough, if they want a player like Crisp. Frankly, I don't know why the Sox are bothering. Even with Crisp I don't think they can run with the Yanks, or the White Sox. If I were running the team, I'd be in rebuilding mode.

I think they'll be a competitive team next year regardless of who they have in cf next year. They might not match the yanks win for win but you have to take into account how utterly horrible their pitching was last year. If they have a better year pitching (which i think they will), they should be able to stay with the yanks in the division. Its doubtful that they will take the divison though, a wild card berth is more likely, but that's why they play all 162 games.
I'd rather see the sox hold onto their prospects and focus on the future rather than try to make a deal for a centerfielder in which they will be squeezed because of their need. Every team knows that they have a hole in the outfield and are going to ask for more value than they regularly would.

Dr. Gonzo
01-26-06, 05:52 PM
I would love for the sox to trade marte

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-26-06, 05:55 PM
I would love for the sox to trade marte

along with Lester For Ken Girffey Jr while eating his salary:D ;)

Pepper03
01-26-06, 06:35 PM
I think they'll be a competitive team next year regardless of who they have in cf next year. They might not match the yanks win for win but you have to take into account how utterly horrible their pitching was last year. If they have a better year pitching (which i think they will), they should be able to stay with the yanks in the division. Its doubtful that they will take the divison though, a wild card berth is more likely, but that's why they play all 162 games.
I'd rather see the sox hold onto their prospects and focus on the future rather than try to make a deal for a centerfielder in which they will be squeezed because of their need. Every team knows that they have a hole in the outfield and are going to ask for more value than they regularly would.

I agree-isn't it really all about the pitching.

If Schilling and Foulke pitch like last year, the Sox would be hard pressed to make the playoffs anyway. If this Marte is as good as advertised, why not keep him, get the year started and see how the pitching is, and then make some moves?

I am one Red Sox fan who could handle a non-playoff year and be OK with it if I felt the team would be stronger long-term. I don't know how many of us there are but I can't be the only one.

If Papelbon and Lester are the real deal, and Hansen gets a good year under his belt in the minors, and Pedroia keeps developing, I see many good years ahead. It would be a shame to trade Marte if he really is as good as he seems to have the potential to be.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-26-06, 06:45 PM
I agree-isn't it really all about the pitching.

If Schilling and Foulke pitch like last year, the Sox would be hard pressed to make the playoffs anyway. If this Marte is as good as advertised, why not keep him, get the year started and see how the pitching is, and then make some moves?

I am one Red Sox fan who could handle a non-playoff year and be OK with it if I felt the team would be stronger long-term. I don't know how many of us there are but I can't be the only one.

If Papelbon and Lester are the real deal, and Hansen gets a good year under his belt in the minors, and Pedroia keeps developing, I see many good years ahead. It would be a shame to trade Marte if he really is as good as he seems to have the potential to be.

I agree with mostly everything, but the chances of Papelbon, Lester, Hansen, Pedroia and Marte all panning out isnt likely. If they all do pan out the Red Sox might be going for a dynasty in a few years if they dont go out of their way to screw it up.

Pepper03
01-26-06, 06:57 PM
I agree with mostly everything, but the chances of Papelbon, Lester, Hansen, Pedroia and Marte all panning out isnt likely. If they all do pan out the Red Sox might be going for a dynasty in a few years if they dont go out of their way to screw it up.

Agreed, but I'd like to see it given a try.

terminator
01-26-06, 07:17 PM
I am one Red Sox fan who could handle a non-playoff year and be OK with it if I felt the team would be stronger long-term. I don't know how many of us there are but I can't be the only one.



Personally, I would be fine with that as well. If they tease us - play well throughout the
year, only to miss the playoffs by a whisker, I would be pretty disappointed, but I wouldn't lose sight of the bigger picture.

Though I have no evidence of this, I feel that this was one of the major issues which LL and Theo disagreed on. Theo has suggested several times that somewhere along the line, the Sox will need to take a step back, in order to contend in later years. I think LL might have a greater affinity to the "stars" - I remember reading a quote of his which suggested that he didn't like giving up on stars, for example: Pedro. Just my
gut feeling, and I might be completely wrong.

I think trading Clement in a deal which will ultimately net Crisp without giving up Marte is a pipe-dream. But if the Sox were to somehow swing that deal, they would have
Marte, Pedroia and Youkilis as part of the infield in 2007, with Crisp in CF. Combine that with Papelbon, Lester, Beckett (if he can stay healthy) in the rotation, and Hansen in the bullpen, and the Sox would have a young nucleus. As has been pointed out, it's unlikely that all of them will become solid major leaguers, much less stars - that would require a tremendous amount of luck, but at the very least it's an excellent starting point.

One thing which is important to not forget is that in the last couple of months of the season, the only hitters producing were Manny and Ortiz. Was it the factor of age catching up with the Sox hitters? Who knows - and simply bringing in young guys is not a guarantee of success, but something was definitely "broken" with the Sox towards the end of the season.

Spiker101
01-26-06, 07:23 PM
I think they'll be a competitive team next year regardless of who they have in cf next year. They might not match the yanks win for win but you have to take into account how utterly horrible their pitching was last year. If they have a better year pitching (which i think they will), they should be able to stay with the yanks in the division. Its doubtful that they will take the divison though, a wild card berth is more likely, but that's why they play all 162 games.
I'd rather see the sox hold onto their prospects and focus on the future rather than try to make a deal for a centerfielder in which they will be squeezed because of their need. Every team knows that they have a hole in the outfield and are going to ask for more value than they regularly would.

If by competitive you mean a team that can win 88-95 games and stay in a wild card race, then I'd agree. But if I'm running the Red Sox, given the state of the franchise now, I'm less concerned about trying to squeeze into the playoffs in '06, than I am in putting together a team that can be serious championship contenders over a 3-5 year stretch.

jonnyc39
01-26-06, 07:23 PM
I am one Red Sox fan who could handle a non-playoff year and be OK with it if I felt the team would be stronger long-term. I don't know how many of us there are but I can't be the only one.
When your team spends $100+ million on their roster, it should ALWAYS be a dissapointment if they miss the playoffs. If the Sox were like the A's, I think you can accept that as a fan. But spending over $100 on a team gives you no real excuse for missing the playoffs, IMO. It means you've spent your money poorly.

Pepper03
01-26-06, 07:33 PM
Yes, it would mean they've spent their money poorly.

But I think the issue I was raising was independent of the payroll.

jonnyc39
01-26-06, 07:37 PM
Yes, it would mean they've spent their money poorly.

But I think the issue I was raising was independent of the payroll.
Oh, I totally understand your point of view. I'm just saying that I think it would be a let down is this owenership, in particular, missed out with that type of payroll. Just my humble opinion.

jdolbow
01-26-06, 08:17 PM
Though I have no evidence of this, I feel that this was one of the major issues which LL and Theo disagreed on. Theo has suggested several times that somewhere along the line, the Sox will need to take a step back, in order to contend in later years. I think LL might have a greater affinity to the "stars" - I remember reading a quote of his which suggested that he didn't like giving up on stars, for example: Pedro. Just my
gut feeling, and I might be completely wrong.


Actually this is pretty much what the article on Theo in the recent issue of SI states. Theo wants to take a longer view, work with younger players, develop talent, instead of hiring stars to long-term contracts that might take them into their declining years.

I'm OK with this, happy to give the strategy a chance, but I think there's no guarantee it will work.

Kangamangus
01-26-06, 09:47 PM
I'm OK with this, happy to give the strategy a chance, but I think there's no guarantee it will work.

I agree, you never know if a prospect will turn out the way that you want.

CTSoxFan
01-26-06, 10:23 PM
I am one Red Sox fan who could handle a non-playoff year and be OK with it if I felt the team would be stronger long-term. I don't know how many of us there are but I can't be the only one.

Nah. I could accept that, too. Admittedly, I'd be posting here a hell of a lot less often... :D

parkerstrong
01-27-06, 05:23 AM
I read an article in the recent Baseball America written by Peter Gammons and I quote "Part of the strain between Epstein and those around Lucchino who worry about the immediate gratification demands of the media is that Theo wanted to take the 2006 season and use it to build another five-year run." The article touches on the whole Theo-LL situation, but I thought that part is rather interesting!

Workhorse
01-27-06, 10:59 AM
File under "Not Dead Yet":




11:03 a.m.

PAUL HOYNES
Plain Dealer Reporter

There is movement in the Coco Crisp trade to Boston.

Indians left-hander Arthur Rhodes, according to a major league source, flew to Philadelphia on Friday morning to undergo a physical by the Philadelphia Phillies. Rhodes is part of a much discussed three-way trade among the Indians, Boston and Philadelphia.

The source said the Indians are still negotiating with Boston on the main part of the trade. The key players discussed between the Indians and Boston - Crisp and third base prospect Andy Marte and right-hander Guillermo Mota - reportedly remain the same. Other players who may be traded include Indians reliever David Riske and catcher Josh Bard and Boston catcher Kelly Shoppach and right-hander Manny Delcarmen.

Rhodes would be traded for Phillies outfielder Jason Michaels, who would replace Crisp in left field.

Snatch Catch
01-27-06, 11:01 AM
File under "Not Dead Yet":


As much as I think Crisp is a great addition to the Sox, I would REALLY like to see this completed now, because it takes Kearns out of the picture for Boston and Cleveland.

Then, if there is a God, the Yanks will enter the mix for him.

Workhorse
01-27-06, 11:03 AM
As much as I think Crisp is a great addition to the Sox, I would REALLY like to see this completed now, because it takes Kearns out of the picture for Boston and Cleveland.

Then, if there is a God, the Yanks will enter the mix for him.

Does it really take the Sox out of the picture for Kearns, though? If Cinci would take on Clement, I'd bet that Boston makes that deal even if they acquire Crisp.

terminator
01-27-06, 11:04 AM
As much as I think Crisp is a great addition to the Sox, I would REALLY like to see this completed now, because it takes Kearns out of the picture for Boston and Cleveland.

Then, if there is a God, the Yanks will enter the mix for him.

Snatch, what would be a reasonable projection for Kearns in 2006, and 2007?

Snatch Catch
01-27-06, 11:14 AM
Snatch, what would be a reasonable projection for Kearns in 2006, and 2007?

To be honest, I'm just going on reading up on him, his injuries, and what he has posted in the Majors.

A poster on SoSH had a huge long article about it, which pointed out that he was a VERY nice hitter upon his call-up from the minors.

You can see it on ESPN.com when looking at his splits- everything post all-star break is after he returned.

Additionally, his defensive numbers AND scouting reports put him as one of the top defensive rightfielders in the league. P.S.- He can play CF, too.

Assuming he really is healthy (which he showed to have been last season,) I don't see any reason why he couldn't be a 120+ OPS+. The potential is there for so much more than that in '06, too.

Even if he's in the 100-110 range, he's still playing great defense.

Remember- this is a guy who, when playing side by side with him in the minor leagues, was generally accepted as a better player than Adam Dunn...and he proved it for a short period on the ML level before having the hand/thumb problem.

This is all my opinion, but I have always really liked Kearns, and the way he finished up last year makes me confident that he can really turn a corner in terms of his offensive production in 2006.

I think whomever it is that lands him in a deal is going to have a very nice player on their hands.

Snatch Catch
01-27-06, 11:15 AM
Does it really take the Sox out of the picture for Kearns, though? If Cinci would take on Clement, I'd bet that Boston makes that deal even if they acquire Crisp.


What about Trot? Even though there is an excess, would they really give up a starter to create a platoon?

Workhorse
01-27-06, 11:29 AM
What about Trot? Even though there is an excess, would they really give up a starter to create a platoon?

Well, according to the PECOTA projections, Kearns would be a pretty valuable chip heading into Spring Training. They could probably spin him and get great value.

Snatch Catch
01-27-06, 11:30 AM
I'm getting sick thinking about someone else getting him. Again, it's just my opinion, but I really think Kearns will be very solid at minimum in 2006.

38Special
01-27-06, 11:55 AM
Kearns has done nothing since he first came up. His sophmore year was good but since then hes had really serious contact issues and attitude problems as well

Snatch Catch
01-27-06, 12:09 PM
Kearns has done nothing since he first came up. His sophmore year was good but since then hes had really serious contact issues and attitude problems as well

What were the attitude problems?

He's also been injured.

I know, I know, he's "injury prone," but he really did start putting things together at the end of last year.

Contact issues aren't a huge problem when your OBP is so far superior to your BA...

Prickly Pete
01-27-06, 12:54 PM
I can't imagine any reason this trade is going through unless the Crisp-to-Boston deal is happening, too:


The long talked-about trade that would send Phillies outfielder Jason Michaels to the Cleveland Indians for veteran reliever Arthur Rhodes is nearing completion, baseball sources said this afternoon.

Rhodes is in Philadelphia today having a physical examination. If he passes the physical, the deal could be announced later today.
Philly Inquirer (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/13728481.htm)

CTSoxFan
01-27-06, 01:13 PM
I can't imagine any reason this trade is going through unless the Crisp-to-Boston deal is happening, too:


Philly Inquirer (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/13728481.htm)

This isn't QUITE as agonizing as the on-again, off-again, A-Rod "DONE DEAL" dance of a couple of years ago...but it's getting there.

Spiker101
01-27-06, 01:20 PM
I can't imagine any reason this trade is going through unless the Crisp-to-Boston deal is happening, too:


Philly Inquirer (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/13728481.htm)

There's another report out there that says Marte-Crisp is back on, so I'd guess you're right.

http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plaindea..._01.html#108231

But there is a semi-rational reason to obtain Michaels for his own sake: Put Michaels in right and move Casey Blake back to third (where he sucks defensively but is miles above Aaron Boone at the plate) Boone may have singlehandedly cost the Indians a playoff spot last year.

Prickly Pete
01-27-06, 01:23 PM
But there is a semi-rational reason to obtain Michaels for his own sake: Put Michaels in right and move Casey Blake back to third (where he sucks defensively but is miles above Aaron Boone at the plate) Boone may have singlehandedly cost the Indians a playoff spot last year.
That makes some sense from a baseball standpoint, but for a team like Cleveland, it's tough to put a guy like Boone, making $3.8 million, on the bench.

Spiker101
01-27-06, 01:29 PM
Does it really take the Sox out of the picture for Kearns, though? If Cinci would take on Clement, I'd bet that Boston makes that deal even if they acquire Crisp.

I'm positive the Sox try to make that deal. The question is Cincy stupid enough to take on Clement without a lLOT of cash trading hands and will JHenry be willing to pay yet another player to play for someone else, a practice he apparently loathes.

Spiker101
01-27-06, 01:32 PM
That makes some sense from a baseball standpoint, but for a team like Cleveland, it's tough to put a guy like Boone, making $3.8 million, on the bench.

What you mean Boone on the bench. They spin Boone to Boston. Don't you guys need another third baseman.:)
Obviously, they'd try to dump his salary off on someone, and given the slings and arrow and injuries of spring training probably would have a 50-50 chance of pulling it off. But this is academic, Crisp for Marte it is, I do believe.

Spiker101
01-27-06, 01:38 PM
What about Trot? Even though there is an excess, would they really give up a starter to create a platoon?

Nixon's three year splits in 196 ABs against lefties: .214/.305./.327/.632
Trot has no business facing lefties at this point of his career.

Snatch Catch
01-27-06, 01:40 PM
Nixon's three year splits in 196 ABs against lefties: .214/.305./.327/.632
Trot has no business facing lefties at this point of his career.


I know, but they're still trading a starter for the chance to create a platoon...

Spiker101
01-27-06, 02:01 PM
I know, but they're still trading a starter for the chance to create a platoon...

It may be that Boston didn't like the vibes Clement gave off in the last half of the season and especially in that playoff meltdown. Plus he's making nearly $10 million a year, which kind of makes him the pitching equivalent of Renteria, ie not enough bang for the buck. And they do have seven starters (with Clement), so yeah I think if the Sox don't have to eat too much moola they'll swap him and take a flyer on Kearns for '06 and knowing that Nixon is history after the season.

Snatch Catch
01-27-06, 02:09 PM
It may be that Boston didn't like the vibes Clement gave off in the last half of the season and especially in that playoff meltdown. Plus he's making nearly $10 million a year, which kind of makes him the pitching equivalent of Renteria, ie not enough bang for the buck. And they do have seven starters (with Clement), so yeah I think if the Sox don't have to eat too much moola they'll swap him and take a flyer on Kearns for '06 and knowing that Nixon is history after the season.


Fair enough.

I hope it doesn't go down, though.

38Special
01-27-06, 02:21 PM
What were the attitude problems?

He's also been injured.

I know, I know, he's "injury prone," but he really did start putting things together at the end of last year.

Contact issues aren't a huge problem when your OBP is so far superior to your BA...

Whining about management to multiple reporters because he was sent to AAA. Injuries had nothing to do with 2005. A minor hamstring strain during the only hot stretch in his season certainly lends credence to that.

Snatch Catch
01-27-06, 02:23 PM
Whining about management to multiple reporters because he was sent to AAA. Injuries had nothing to do with 2005. A minor hamstring strain during the only hot stretch in his season certainly lends credence to that.


Look at his 2005 when he came back from the minors, though. It's pretty clear that he was healthy, had a defined role, and produced as such.

m_sisca
01-27-06, 02:23 PM
Coco Crisp is pretty sweet.yeah it is, plus, when youve eaten it all, you still have the chocolate milk left to drink from the bowl.

Maldonado
01-27-06, 02:44 PM
: "Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez"

I heard the Indians were playing hardball by demanding another prospect for Crisp, and it looks like the Red Sox caved. Crisp is about as good of a replacement for Damon as they're going to get. Alex Gonzalez...I don't think he's going to be setting Boston aflame any time soon.

Workhorse
01-27-06, 02:45 PM
According to ESPN, the Rhodes/Michaels deal is official.

JWHIII
01-27-06, 03:52 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5282852

Rosenthal says Crisp to Sox close to being done.

Workhorse
01-27-06, 03:57 PM
If Rosenthal is calling it, it's probably true.

He's having a Hall Of Fame offseason for a writer.

JWHIII
01-27-06, 04:00 PM
If Rosenthal is calling it, it's probably true.

He's having a Hall Of Fame offseason for a writer.
It's really unbelievable, I can't recall a single writer breaking more stories than this guy has this off-season.

Workhorse
01-27-06, 04:02 PM
It's really unbelievable, I can't recall a single writer breaking more stories than this guy has this off-season.

Agreed.

The really impressive part is that he has found a way to get scoops that aren't rumors. In other words, he's able to suss out what's real and what's BS that GMs are feeding him to serve their own needs. He needs to teach Mr. Gammons some of those skills.

Mark19
01-27-06, 04:02 PM
so if Rosenthal is right, the deal is now:

Sox get: Crisp, Riske and Bard
Tribe gets: Marte, Mota, Shoppach and Delcarmen

Workhorse
01-27-06, 04:04 PM
so if Rosenthal is right, the deal is now:

Sox get: Crisp, Riske and Bard
Tribe gets: Marte, Mota, Shoppach and Delcarmen

Remains to be seen. That article didn't indicate one way or another if the Sox sweetened the pot.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-27-06, 04:05 PM
Why would the tribe ask for Shoppach when they have Victor Martinez?

Mark19
01-27-06, 04:08 PM
Why would the tribe ask for Shoppach when they have Victor Martinez?

Because he can probably be a decent backup, V-Mart is such a stud that they can afford to carry a AAAA catcher.

Mark19
01-27-06, 04:12 PM
Done Deal pending physicals

Sox get: Crisp, Riske and Bard
Tribe get: Marte, Mota, Shoppach, Michaels and PTBNL/Cash
Phillies get: Rhodes

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060127&content_id=1302026&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle

bnorris85
01-27-06, 04:24 PM
are we trying to aquire a heap of ................ty back up catchers hahha

ieddyi
01-27-06, 06:23 PM
Again, I just don't see how all the maneuvering instead of just keeping Damon makes much sense.
They thought enough of Damon's prognosis to offer him 4 years- forget the money
Was not spending another 2-3M/ Year on Damon preferable to keeping Marte. Assuming that Crisps performance will equal Damons9 which I don't think is a lock at all ) and you have to fqctor in the loss of Marte and Mota.
With all the assuming going on that Lester, Hansen, Pedroia and Paps being the core of the team in the coming years, couldn't they afford to "overspend" their perceived line of value for Damon.
If Marte becomes a stud, it looks even more shortsighted

terminator
01-27-06, 06:38 PM
Again, I just don't see how all the maneuvering instead of just keeping Damon makes much sense.
They thought enough of Damon's prognosis to offer him 4 years- forget the money
Was not spending another 2-3M/ Year on Damon preferable to keeping Marte. Assuming that Crisps performance will equal Damons9 which I don't think is a lock at all ) and you have to fqctor in the loss of Marte and Mota.


Well one way to look at it is: (oversimplifying it obviously because there are so many variables)

Crisp will probably make around 20M in the next 4 years. (Estimation by Boston GLobe based on what they expect him to get through arbitration on a yearly basis). So, say the Red Sox could have kept Damon if they paid him 45M/4 years. So by having Crisp instead they saved 25M.

So, the question is:

Damon + Marte + Mota > Crisp + Riske + 25M?

Obviously, a lot depends on how you see Marte performing over the next 4 years.
You can say that now the Sox will need a 3baseman after 2 years, or before that if Lowell performs poorly, or if they move Youks to 3rd at some point, they will need a 1Basemen, etc. But they still have around 25M to play around with to upgrade those positions. Obviously, there might not be a good player available, but the same is the case with CF.

I can see both sides of the argument. I am pretty sure that Crisp's relatively cheap salary factors (factored?) in greatly in the decision making. Marte's success over the next 4 - or 6 years - will decide whether in hindsight this was a good deal.

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 06:45 PM
Done Deal pending physicals

Sox get: Crisp, Riske and Bard
Tribe get: Marte, Mota, Shoppach, Michaels and PTBNL/Cash
Phillies get: Rhodes

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060127&content_id=1302026&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle
Wow, Cleveland wins.

NYDCYankee
01-27-06, 06:51 PM
Is the PTBNL Declarmen?

genius-24
01-27-06, 06:55 PM
Is the PTBNL Declarmen?
wtf is PTLBNL?

Jasbro
01-27-06, 06:58 PM
wtf is PTLBNL?

Player To Be Named Later

genius-24
01-27-06, 07:02 PM
Player To Be Named Later

:o........................:D

terminator
01-27-06, 07:05 PM
Is the PTBNL Declarmen?

Apparently not. The Sox will submit a list of names which will not include Lil Manny.

http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plaindealer/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_plaindealer/archives/2006_01.html

Dooley Womack
01-27-06, 07:43 PM
Wow, Cleveland wins.

Agreed.

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 07:45 PM
Agreed.
Sox gave up too much, considering the other possible options out there. Either the options weren't truly there, or they reaaaally like Crisp.

27IsNext
01-27-06, 07:46 PM
The Tribe looks to pwn the rest of the AL Central for years to come once all of that talent gets into the majors.

genius-24
01-27-06, 07:51 PM
How good is shoppach?

CTSoxFan
01-27-06, 08:06 PM
Wow, Cleveland wins.

I dunno...maybe it's the booze talking, but for now, this might be a win/win/win.

The Phillies: deal a fourth outfielder with a criminal past, pick up a valuable bullpen arm.
The Indians: take a downgrade of unspecified magnitude in left field for what they perceive to be an upgrade in their bullpen, an upgrade in the backup catcher department and one of the best prospects in baseball.
The Red Sox: lose said prospect, a few dollars and a lower-level prospect in order to fill a huge gaping hole in center field and take what they perceive to be an upgrade in their bullpen.

Who actually wins, of course, depends entirely on the performance of the principals, especially Marte.

CTSoxFan
01-27-06, 08:08 PM
Sox gave up too much, considering the other possible options out there. Either the options weren't truly there, or they reaaaally like Crisp.

What do you perceive to be the other options out there?

Roberts? Woody Williams comes anchored to him.
Michaels? Far, far less of a sure thing than Crisp (and 3-4 years older).
Reed? The Mariners wanted even more than the Indians did.

Who else was out there?

DiMaggio5CF
01-27-06, 08:08 PM
Done Deal pending physicals

Sox get: Crisp, Riske and Bard
Tribe get: Marte, Mota, Shoppach, Michaels and PTBNL/Cash
Phillies get: Rhodes

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060127&content_id=1302026&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle

How can it be done pending physicals? Did Mota suddenly heal? :lol:

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 08:11 PM
I dunno...maybe it's the booze talking, but for now, this might be a win/win/win.

The Phillies: deal a fourth outfielder with a criminal past, pick up a valuable bullpen arm.
The Indians: take a downgrade of unspecified magnitude in left field for what they perceive to be an upgrade in their bullpen, an upgrade in the backup catcher department and one of the best prospects in baseball.
The Red Sox: lose said prospect, a few dollars and a lower-level prospect in order to fill a huge gaping hole in center field and take what they perceive to be an upgrade in their bullpen.

Who actually wins, of course, depends entirely on the performance of the principals, especially Marte.If booze is talking for both of us, why don't we agree? :lol:

Seriously though you very well may be right. It just hurts to give up one of the top prospects in the game for anyone. But yes, the huge hole in CF is now filled - and filled beyond most people's expectations. I just hope Crisp keeps improving.

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 08:13 PM
What do you perceive to be the other options out there?

Roberts? Woody Williams comes anchored to him.
Michaels? Far, far less of a sure thing than Crisp (and 3-4 years older).
Reed? The Mariners wanted even more than the Indians did.

Who else was out there?
I was thinking mainly Michaels and Kearns (who I know, would be a big gamble in CF). You are right in that they are nowhere near the sure thing that Crisp is - and ultimately I am happy to have him. I just don't see this deal as anything near a slam dunk.

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 08:14 PM
How can it be done pending physicals? Did Mota suddenly heal? :lol:
Cleveland was bluffing, either stalling to get the Philly deal done, or getting the Sox to throw in more. Looks like it worked out for them.

CTSoxFan
01-27-06, 08:17 PM
If booze is talking for both of us, why don't we agree? :lol:

I dunno...different booze? Switch to Knob Creek, and see if I make better sense. :D

DiMaggio5CF
01-27-06, 08:19 PM
So basically the Red Sox traded . . .

Edgar Renteria, Hanley Ramirez, Kelly Shoppach, Anibal Sanchez, Jesus Delgado, and Harvey Garcia

for . . .

Josh Beckett, Coco Crisp, Mike Lowell, and David Riske

terminator
01-27-06, 08:21 PM
I dunno...maybe it's the booze talking, but for now, this might be a win/win/win.



I can see your point. I do think that the Phillies could have gotten someone better for Michaels, but they might have held on to him for too long. Overall, you can argue that all teams did "win" -at this stage of course, and not being able to look into the future -
to varying degrees.

DiMaggio5CF
01-27-06, 08:22 PM
Cleveland was bluffing, either stalling to get the Philly deal done, or getting the Sox to throw in more. Looks like it worked out for them.

How can you bluff a physical?

Is a trade really done pending physicals? That would mean that, as long as everyone passes a physical, the deal is done. The only thing that could undo the trade is a failed physical.

Or is that the physicals are the last step before the trade is completed, meaning that a deal isn't done until after they physical, and so the teams still have that time to change their mind for whatever reason?

That probably doesn't make any sense, but if it does, I'm interested in the answer.

terminator
01-27-06, 08:24 PM
So basically the Red Sox traded . . .

Edgar Renteria, Hanley Ramirez, Kelly Shoppach, Anibal Sanchez, Jesus Delgado, and Harvey Garcia

for . . .

Josh Beckett, Coco Crisp, Mike Lowell, and David Riske

I tried responding to your post, but you keep on modifying it. Yeah, I know, it's hard to remember how many players have been exchanged. :)

Not that Bard is going to light up the scene, but for the sake of consistency, you should include him.

terminator
01-27-06, 08:25 PM
How can you bluff a physical?

Is a trade really done pending physicals? That would mean that, as long as everyone passes a physical, the deal is done. The only thing that could undo the trade is a failed physical.

Or is that the physicals are the last step before the trade is completed, meaning that a deal isn't done until after they physical, and so the teams still have that time to change their mind for whatever reason?

That probably doesn't make any sense, but if it does, I'm interested in the answer.

My understanding is that if Mota spends a certain amount of time on the DL, the Sox will have to give up a prospect on a list which has been agreed on by the two teams at this stage. That list doesn't include Lil Manny.

CTSoxFan
01-27-06, 08:28 PM
So basically the Red Sox traded . . .

Edgar Renteria, Hanley Ramirez, Kelly Shoppach, Anibal Sanchez, Jesus Delgado, and Harvey Garcia

for . . .

Josh Beckett, Coco Crisp, Mike Lowell, and David Riske

Paraphrased: they dealt one failed major leaguer and four minor league prospects (inc. two very good ones...three if you're on the Kelly Shoppach bandwagon) for four major leaguers, inc. two young, potentially multiple-All-Stars.

I don't want to see them do this every year, and I NEVER want to see them do this for deals in which guys like Mike Lowell are the centerpiece, rather than the "also-includeds." But without being a fortune teller, I'll consider the Sox as having had a successful off-season, based on this exchange of players and the depth they added to their bullpen.

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 08:29 PM
How can you bluff a physical?

Is a trade really done pending physicals? That would mean that, as long as everyone passes a physical, the deal is done. The only thing that could undo the trade is a failed physical.

Or is that the physicals are the last step before the trade is completed, meaning that a deal isn't done until after they physical, and so the teams still have that time to change their mind for whatever reason?

That probably doesn't make any sense, but if it does, I'm interested in the answer.
I believe all physicals are now completed. I'll check and see what I can find. But to answer your first question, IMO, you can bluff a physical by saying that you dont think the player is healthy enough, so you want to include something else, or deal is off.

Fake edit: Cleveland.com says:
The Coco Crisp trade is done.

Left-hander Arthur Rhodes' physical was the only thing delaying the three-team deal, but the Phillies were expected to make the acquisition of the veteran reliever official at 8 p.m.

I've read that the Rhodes part is now complete - maybe someone else has that link.

CTSoxFan
01-27-06, 08:31 PM
I've read that the Rhodes part is now complete - maybe someone else has that link.

No link, but this cut-and-paste from Rotoworld:
Phillies acquired LHP Arthur Rhodes from the Indians for outfielder Jason Michaels.
At least this means that Ryan Madson will likely be in the rotation. Still, we'd be stunned if the Phillies couldn't have done better than this earlier in the offseason. Rhodes was plenty good last year, but he hasn't reached 60 innings since 2002 and he had ERAs of 4.17 in 2003 and 5.12 in 2004. He's also signed for just one more year and that at $4.8 million, though we imagine that the Phillies aren't paying the full amount. This marks the third time Rhodes has been dealt since the A's signed him to act as a closer prior to 2004. Jan. 27 - 8:16 pm et

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-27-06, 08:36 PM
"The Indians will receive at least $1 million from the Red Sox. The exact amount is not known, but the commissioner must approve any deal in which more than $1 million in cash is involved.

Imagine if the Selig rejects the trade?

CTSoxFan
01-27-06, 08:45 PM
"The Indians will receive at least $1 million from the Red Sox. The exact amount is not known, but the commissioner must approve any deal in which more than $1 million in cash is involved.

Imagine if the Selig rejects the trade?

You can't imagine Selig rejecting the deal when all this time and energy have been put into it...can you (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_press_release.jsp?ymd=20031218&content_id=620708&vkey=pr_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)?

:D

MiamiKat
01-27-06, 08:47 PM
"The Indians will receive at least $1 million from the Red Sox. The exact amount is not known, but the commissioner must approve any deal in which more than $1 million in cash is involved.

Imagine if the Selig rejects the trade?HAHAHAHAHAHA

Like Selig's going to reject any deal that ownership group wants to do. (Before anyone says anything...the union rejected the A-Rod trade. Selig, a few weeks past the 72-hr deadline, said that the Red Sox had to stop talking with A-Rod at that point.)

Who got Henry, etc the Sox in the first place?

MiamiKat
01-27-06, 08:48 PM
You can't imagine Selig rejecting the deal when all this time and energy have been put into it...can you (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_press_release.jsp?ymd=20031218&content_id=620708&vkey=pr_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)?

:D
Like I said, that statement was only made after the union refused to give permission for the renegotiation of A-Rod's contract.

And there went about two extra weeks of approved tampering.

YankyDave
01-27-06, 08:48 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Like Selig's going to reject any deal that ownership group wants to do. (Before anyone says anything...the union rejected the A-Rod trade. Selig, a few weeks past the 72-hr deadline, said that the Red Sox had to stop talking with A-Rod at that point.)

Who got Henry, etc the Sox in the first place?

He may jump in and demand that Boston not have to send any players.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-27-06, 08:49 PM
You can't imagine Selig rejecting the deal when all this time and energy have been put into it...can you (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_press_release.jsp?ymd=20031218&content_id=620708&vkey=pr_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)?

:D

Thats why I thought of it. All this time and enery and off and on trade talks, failed physicals lies and rumours and finally the deal is as close to being final as possible, without being final and Selig rejects it for pretty much no apparent reason.

BTW I dont think it will be rejected, just that it would be funny if it was.

TommyK8
01-27-06, 08:51 PM
For those of you keeping score at home, here is the Red Sox in and outs this postseason:

Ins
Josh Beckett
Mike Lowell
Mark Loretta
Coco Crisp
David Riske
Josh Bard
Julian Tavarez
Rudy Seanez
Jermaine Van Buren
Willie Harris
John Flaherty
J.T. Snow
Dustan Mohr
Alex Gonzalez (signing rumored to be imminent)

Outs
Edgar Renteria
Johnny Damon
Mike Meyers
Kevin Millar
Bill Mueller
Doug Mirabelli
Kelly Shoppach
Anabil Sanchez
Hanley Ramirez
John Olerud
Jesus Delgado
Harvey Garcia
Chad Bradford
Jeremi Gonzalez

The 2006 Red Sox are going to have a much different look. Still to be resolved are possible trades of David Wells and/or Manny Ramirez.

MiamiKat
01-27-06, 08:52 PM
He may jump in and demand that Boston not have to send any players.
That sounds more like the Bud we all know and love.

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 08:52 PM
He may jump in and demand that Boston not have to send any players.
I think that would be a fine and responsible move for the Commissioner to make.

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 08:54 PM
The 2006 Red Sox are going to have a much different look. Still to be resolved are possible trades of David Wells and/or Manny Ramirez.
I am going to miss Mirabelli, Damon and of course Mueller. But overall I am quite happy with the moves the Sox have made.

BTW, I think you can pretty much forget about any Manny trade. And I'd expected Clement to be moved before Wells.

ieddyi
01-27-06, 08:55 PM
Well one way to look at it is: (oversimplifying it obviously because there are so many variables)

Crisp will probably make around 20M in the next 4 years. (Estimation by Boston GLobe based on what they expect him to get through arbitration on a yearly basis). So, say the Red Sox could have kept Damon if they paid him 45M/4 years. So by having Crisp instead they saved 25M.

So, the question is:

Damon + Marte + Mota > Crisp + Riske + 25M?

Obviously, a lot depends on how you see Marte performing over the next 4 years.
You can say that now the Sox will need a 3baseman after 2 years, or before that if Lowell performs poorly, or if they move Youks to 3rd at some point, they will need a 1Basemen, etc. But they still have around 25M to play around with to upgrade those positions. Obviously, there might not be a good player available, but the same is the case with CF.

I can see both sides of the argument. I am pretty sure that Crisp's relatively cheap salary factors (factored?) in greatly in the decision making. Marte's success over the next 4 - or 6 years - will decide whether in hindsight this was a good deal.


"Damon + Marte + Mota > Crisp + Riske + 25M?"

My point is that if the sawx are really going w/ a youth movement and will be playing Hansen, Pedroia, Lester, Paps, etc, what are they going to do with the 25M that makes more sense than keeping damon and paying him 2-3M/year over their analyis of his "true" value and keeping Marte.
Are they going to be willing to use that 25M to overpay someone else besides damon? Is it worth 23M/ year to pay to see if Marte pans out?

I could see if it were a no brainer upgrade, but I don't see that in Crisp- and they were willing to go 4 years for damon so the longevity card really doesn't play

Jasbro
01-27-06, 09:00 PM
"Damon + Marte + Mota > Crisp + Riske + 25M?"

My point is that if the sawx are really going w/ a youth movement and will be playing Hansen, Pedroia, Lester, Paps, etc, what are they going to do with the 25M that makes more sense than keeping damon and paying him 2-3M/year over their analyis of his "true" value and keeping Marte.
Are they going to be willing to use that 25M to overpay someone else besides damon? Is it worth 23M/ year to pay to see if Marte pans out?

I could see if it were a no brainer upgrade, but I don't see that in Crisp- and they were willing to go 4 years for damon so the longevity card really doesn't play

Isn't there $11mm, and the cost of a SS to be named later, embedded in Marte that partially offsets the $25mm in "savings"? And isn't Crisp's value really as a LF vs. what he has shown (in a small sample size) at CF?

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 09:00 PM
"Damon + Marte + Mota > Crisp + Riske + 25M?"

My point is that if the sawx are really going w/ a youth movement and will be playing Hansen, Pedroia, Lester, Paps, etc, what are they going to do with the 25M that makes more sense than keeping damon and paying him 2-3M/year over their analyis of his "true" value and keeping Marte.
Are they going to be willing to use that 25M to overpay someone else besides damon? Is it worth 23M/ year to pay to see if Marte pans out?
They'll use that money and extend Beckett and Ortiz. And maybe sign a big 1B or RF next season. That's a possibility, right?

38Special
01-27-06, 09:11 PM
They'll use that money and extend Beckett and Ortiz. And maybe sign a big 1B or RF next season. That's a possibility, right?

the best OFers available next season:

Sheffield (possibly, team option)
Nixon
Jose Guillen
Juan Pierre
Carlos Lee
Milton Bradley
Torii Hunter
Craig Wilson

Lee is interesting, but his defense is bad and his offense is pretty streaky. Bradley and Guillen both have character issues, and Pierre and Hunter are going to cost MUCH more than they're worth.

the best 1B next season:

Aubrey Huff
Nick Johnson
Derrek Lee
Sean Casey
Shea Hillenbrand

Lee (again) is the big name here, depending on the year he has in 06. I love NJ though :)

jonnyc39
01-27-06, 09:28 PM
the best OFers available next season:

Sheffield (possibly, team option)
Nixon
Jose Guillen
Juan Pierre
Carlos Lee
Milton Bradley
Torii Hunter
Craig Wilson

Lee is interesting, but his defense is bad and his offense is pretty streaky. Bradley and Guillen both have character issues, and Pierre and Hunter are going to cost MUCH more than they're worth.

the best 1B next season:

Aubrey Huff
Nick Johnson
Derrek Lee
Sean Casey
Shea Hillenbrand

Lee (again) is the big name here, depending on the year he has in 06. I love NJ though :)My point is that the Sox will have opportunity to spend that $25. I am confident that Henry isn't just keeping it.

Johnson and Lee strike me. The current ownership has shown that big money at 1B isn't a priority. And don't forget about trades - depending on what happens with Kearns, he'd be a great option in RF.

Jasbro
01-27-06, 09:38 PM
Can someone please show me what I am missing here?

According to ESPN.com, Crisp's career numbers at CF are remarkably similar to Bernie Williams' 2005 CF defensive stats.

Bernie: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2538&context=fielding
Crisp: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5299&context=fielding

genius-24
01-27-06, 09:54 PM
I would love signing Nick Johnson in 07 but the problem is giambi and sheff.
If Sheff's option gets picked up he will probably mostly bat DH and Giambi will hold 1st, blocking all the possibility for NJ to become yankee.

nhyankeefan
01-27-06, 09:55 PM
Can someone please show me what I am missing here?

According to ESPN.com, Crisp's career numbers at CF are remarkably similar to Bernie Williams' 2005 CF defensive stats.

Bernie: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2538&context=fielding
Crisp: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5299&context=fielding

That's very surprising, I knew that Crisp was a better LF than CF but I didn't expect his stats to be that bad.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-27-06, 09:56 PM
I would love signing Nick Johnson in 07 but the problem is giambi and sheff.
If Sheff's option gets picked up he will probably mostly bat DH and Giambi will hold 1st, blocking all the possibility for NJ to become yankee.

It wouldn't matter, we'd sign him and he''d be on the DL fr 3/4 of the season

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-27-06, 10:05 PM
Can someone please show me what I am missing here?

According to ESPN.com, Crisp's career numbers at CF are remarkably similar to Bernie Williams' 2005 CF defensive stats.

Bernie: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2538&context=fielding
Crisp: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5299&context=fielding

Crappy defensive statistics. Their are statistics out there that say Bernie has better range than Damon. The only defensive statistic I trust is UZR over at least a 2 year span.(preferably 3 years)

Jasbro
01-27-06, 10:08 PM
Crappy defensive statistics. Their are statistics out there that say Bernie has better range than Damon. The only defensive statistic I trust is UZR over at least a 2 year span.(preferably 3 years)

OK, I'll play along. What is Crisp's CF UZR?

Mystic Merlyn
01-27-06, 10:13 PM
I am not a fan of this trade. I like Crisp (as I have said 20593095 times), and he will be as good as Damon, at worst, and likely better. He's 25 and he's just entering his prime, and while he isn't a good defensive CF, he is serviceable. I hate trading Marte because I have a fear that this trade could blow up in the Sox faces, but it fills a need, and you can't fault the Sox for it. Shoppach is a backup at best, while Mota is simply a question mark. Delcarmen (or whoever) aren't significant pieces. Bard is an alright backup, and Riske is a solid reliever. Objectively, this is an even trade IMO, but subjectively, I have my misgivings.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-27-06, 10:14 PM
OK, I'll play along. What is Crisp's CF UZR?

I have no clue, they arent released for every player anymore, just occasionally a name will pop up in a BP article with the guy's UZR. I know you are going to say the stats you posted are all we have to on, but i would trust my eyes and scouting reports) more than those stats.

That being said from what little I have seen I would be willing to bet a lot of money that Crisp isnt as bad as Bernie in CF. Maybe not as good as Damon but I am going to look through some BP articles and scouting reports to see if I can find anything.

Edit so far I fount out he was + 38 uzr in left last year which is absolutelty insanse. But that is only one year and in left field and in 2003 he was only +4.

Edit 2: Now im getting articles like http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/measuring-range/ which have Crisp as below average. So far according to scouting reports he is great in Left but a little bit below average-average in center. Either way that is better than Bernies putrid CF defense last year. I shall continue my search though.

edit 3: got it from Sons of Sam Horn, Crisp's uzr as a centerfielder is a -2 UZR from 2000-2003, but keep in mind that is a small smple size according to the poster.

DiMaggio5CF
01-27-06, 10:22 PM
Paraphrased: they dealt one failed major leaguer and four minor league prospects (inc. two very good ones...three if you're on the Kelly Shoppach bandwagon) for four major leaguers, inc. two young, potentially multiple-All-Stars.

I don't want to see them do this every year, and I NEVER want to see them do this for deals in which guys like Mike Lowell are the centerpiece, rather than the "also-includeds." But without being a fortune teller, I'll consider the Sox as having had a successful off-season, based on this exchange of players and the depth they added to their bullpen.

How can you be happy?

This is just a case of the Red Sox trying to buy a championship.

Even if they win, what does it really mean?

:bad: :bad: :bad: :bad: :bad:

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-27-06, 10:29 PM
I am not a fan of this trade. I like Crisp (as I have said 20593095 times), and he will be as good as Damon, at worst, and likely better. He's 25 and he's just entering his prime, and while he isn't a good defensive CF, he is serviceable. I hate trading Marte because I have a fear that this trade could blow up in the Sox faces, but it fills a need, and you can't fault the Sox for it. Shoppach is a backup at best, while Mota is simply a question mark. Delcarmen (or whoever) aren't significant pieces. Bard is an alright backup, and Riske is a solid reliever. Objectively, this is an even trade IMO, but subjectively, I have my misgivings.

Its not a given that Crisp will be as good as Damon at worst. He could have already peaked last year. Young players dont always get better just because they are young and I believe another Sox fan agreed with me somewhere on these boards on the same topic. Id say at worst well he is worse than Damon and at best he is better than Damon. Im not saying he wont get better or be better than Damon, just that its not a lock and fans of both teams shouldnt get their hopes up.

Mystic Merlyn
01-27-06, 10:32 PM
Its not a given that Crisp will be as good as Damon at worst. He could have already peaked last year. Young players dont always get better just because they are young and I believe another Sox fan agreed with me somewhere on these boards on the same topic. Id say at worst well he is worse than Damon and at best he is better than Damon. Im not saying he wont get better or be better than Damon, just that its not a lock and fans of both teams shouldnt get their hopes up.

Well, yes it is a sport, so there is always a chance for anything. However, when a 25 year old guy has progressed every single year of his career, I don't see any reason why he should suddenly decline. Also, Idon't see how a 32 year old guy should suddenly progress.

If you are saying there is a chance Crisp is worse than Damon, then you're right. But there is also a chance for a lot of things to happen that don't make sense.

Johnny O
01-27-06, 10:39 PM
Well, yes it is a sport, so there is always a chance for anything. However, when a 25 year old guy has progressed every single year of his career, I don't see any reason why he should suddenly decline. Also, Idon't see how a 32 year old guy should suddenly progress.

If you are saying there is a chance Crisp is worse than Damon, then you're right. But there is also a chance for a lot of things to happen that don't make sense.

Crisp is 26. One thing to consider is that Damon has not set the bar that high, he's a good player, but hardly great - his career OPS is .785. Crisp should easily match and very likely exceed Damon's production over the next four years.

Mystic Merlyn
01-27-06, 10:41 PM
Crisp is 26. One thing to consider is that Damon has not set the bar that high, he's a good player, but hardly great - his career OPS is .785. Crisp should easily match and very likely exceed Damon's production over the next four years.

You're right. He's 26 this year.

My point exactly. People forget that Damon was a bust with the Sox until the last couple of seasons, and to expect the same baseline of performance is hopeful at best.

JDPNYY
01-27-06, 10:43 PM
How good is Marte?

Mystic Merlyn
01-27-06, 10:50 PM
How good is Marte?

He's stronger than Hercules, wiser than Aristotle and more graceful than a swan.

Johnny O
01-27-06, 10:51 PM
You're right. He's 26 this year.

My point exactly. People forget that Damon was a bust with the Sox until the last couple of seasons, and to expect the same baseline of performance is hopeful at best.

I think Damon could have maybe 2 years at his 2005 level, but could also sink to .760 OPS levels and worse as the contract progresses. He's a dramatically overrated player and could end up as the 4th best CFer in the division as soon as this year.

CTSoxFan
01-27-06, 11:16 PM
Well, yes it is a sport, so there is always a chance for anything. However, when a 25 year old guy has progressed every single year of his career, I don't see any reason why he should suddenly decline. Also, I don't see how a 32 year old guy should suddenly progress.

Of course, there's this guy (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml), the exception to prove the rule.

Of course, when he leaped into another stratosphere at age 34, he was revisiting past accomplishments, not breaking new ground. :)

jimmykey2
01-27-06, 11:30 PM
I think Damon could have maybe 2 years at his 2005 level, but could also sink to .760 OPS levels and worse as the contract progresses. He's a dramatically overrated player and could end up as the 4th best CFer in the division as soon as this year.


While I was never a fan of bringing Damon to NY, I have to object to this suddenly popular notion that Damon is overrated/is easily replaceable. This guy hit .330 last year before getting banged up. Even with all the "BA is overrated" people around, that's damn good no matter how you slice it. To think he will fall off offensively because he's leaving Fenway completely UNDERrates his talent. The major question will be can he cover CF well for the next 2 seasons. Otherwise, give the guy some credit.


As far as the trade goes, it's a win for the Sox. They got a decent arm to replace the one they traded away. They got a solid replacement for Damon, although I don't think he's on JD's level offensively. There's no evidence to support the notion Shoppach will ever hit ML pitching even on Bard's level.

Yankees1962
01-27-06, 11:47 PM
You're right. He's 26 this year.

My point exactly. People forget that Damon was a bust with the Sox until the last couple of seasons, and to expect the same baseline of performance is hopeful at best.
Well, since this trade went down, we'll see one way or another if your spin on this situation comes true or not.

38Special
01-28-06, 12:29 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2309119&name=FPT-2309119-012723&srvc=sz


Mota never pitched for the Red Sox, who acquired him in the trade with Florida for Josh Beckett. The right-hander went 2-2 with a 4.70 ERA and two saves in 56 games for the Marlins, but missed more than a month with a sore elbow. He will make $3 million next season.

Because of their concerns over Mota's health, the Indians pushed and got the Red Sox to sweeten the deal. If Mota goes on the disabled list, Cleveland will be able to add a pitcher from Boston's minor league system.

No idea how this works, but I cant wait to hear the crying foul from Boston when Mota ends up on the DL. Especially after the crap that they've pulled the last few years with the Rule 5 picks like Dinardo and Stern

mhmajp
01-28-06, 12:55 AM
No idea how this works, but I cant wait to hear the crying foul from Boston when Mota ends up on the DL. Especially after the crap that they've pulled the last few years with the Rule 5 picks like Dinardo and Stern

That Boston has pulled? Do tell!

noneckwilliams
01-28-06, 06:03 AM
That Boston has pulled? Do tell!

I believe because Stern was a rule 5 pickup from Atlanta he had to stay on the 25 man roster. If demoted the Braves could get him back. Whenever the RS wanted the roster space it seems Stern would always come up with some very timely "injury" and get DL'd as opposed to them having to send him down and give Atlanta a chance to reclaim him.

I don't see what the big deal about Stern is anyway.

noneckwilliams
01-28-06, 06:14 AM
You're right. He's 26 this year.

My point exactly. People forget that Damon was a bust with the Sox until the last couple of seasons, and to expect the same baseline of performance is hopeful at best.

Damon was a perfect fit in Boston and would have given you guys All Star caliber CF for at least 2 years. For an extra $4-6 mil you could have kept him. Instead your FO dithered, you lost Damon (who clearly wanted to stay) and ended up having to trade your best prospect (and one of the best in baseball) for Coco Crisp - he of the .332 career OBP.

A Hanley Ramirez for Coco Crisp deal would have been deemed insantity by Red Sox fans yet your FO has just dealt away and even better prospect for Mr. Crisp.

parkerstrong
01-28-06, 06:18 AM
He's stronger than Hercules, wiser than Aristotle and more graceful than a swan.

You forgot....he isnt a Red Sox anymore. He now is an over-hyped prospect!

Ljberkow12
01-28-06, 06:38 AM
Again, I just don't see how all the maneuvering instead of just keeping Damon makes much sense.
They thought enough of Damon's prognosis to offer him 4 years- forget the money
Was not spending another 2-3M/ Year on Damon preferable to keeping Marte. Assuming that Crisps performance will equal Damons9 which I don't think is a lock at all ) and you have to fqctor in the loss of Marte and Mota.
With all the assuming going on that Lester, Hansen, Pedroia and Paps being the core of the team in the coming years, couldn't they afford to "overspend" their perceived line of value for Damon.
If Marte becomes a stud, it looks even more shortsighted

The Red Sox wanted to get younger. There are too many guys on the team over 30. Getting Crisp also gives them more financial flexibility. If they're going to spend $12 to $13 million on a player, maybe they're holding it for Beckett or a corner inflielder who will be a free agent in 2007 or available at the trading deadline.

nhyankeefan
01-28-06, 06:39 AM
I believe because Stern was a rule 5 pickup from Atlanta he had to stay on the 25 man roster. If demoted the Braves could get him back. Whenever the RS wanted the roster space it seems Stern would always come up with some very timely "injury" and get DL'd as opposed to them having to send him down and give Atlanta a chance to reclaim him.

I don't see what the big deal about Stern is anyway.

You are correct about Stern, he was only active from July 7 - August 20 during the 25 man roster period last year.

Dooley Womack
01-28-06, 06:40 AM
Damon is history. This is more about Crisp vs. Marte than Crisp vs. Damon. Good luck.

Ljberkow12
01-28-06, 06:41 AM
How good is Marte?

Mark Shapiro seems like a pretty sharp guy. So I wouldn't bet against Marte.

Dooley Womack
01-28-06, 06:42 AM
Mark Shapiro seems like a pretty sharp guy. So I wouldn't bet against Marte.

I wouldn't bet against Marte if Hicks or Angelos picked him up. Say hello to a future superstar.

Ljberkow12
01-28-06, 06:53 AM
I wouldn't bet against Marte if Hicks or Angelos picked him up. Say hello to a future superstar.

What makes Shapiro better than the other executives is that he is the one who actually gets guys like Marte and Sizemore and it's not the Orioles or Rangers.

Dooley Womack
01-28-06, 06:59 AM
What makes Shapiro better than the other executives is that he is the one who actually gets guys like Marte and Sizemore and it's not the Orioles or Rangers.

I'm not in disagreement.

ieddyi
01-28-06, 07:04 AM
Mark Shapiro seems like a pretty sharp guy. So I wouldn't bet against Marte.


Scheurholz has shown to be even sharper and he let him go for EEEdgar.......

In my mind that's the only knock on Marte

ieddyi
01-28-06, 07:23 AM
It was Mota's potentially troublesome right elbow that sidelined the deal earlier in the week. An MRI concerned the Indians to the point where they pulled out of the proposed original six-player swap.

The deal is structured in such a way that if Mota remains healthy for the entire season, the Indians will be given a lesser prospect. If he is sidelined, however, the prospect they select from the Sox will be slightly upgraded.

From the Projo:

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20060128_28sox.2223842c.html

So, cleveland is getting an arm no matter what, it's just the question of the quality- a better arm if Mota is Dl'ed

Kangamangus
01-28-06, 07:27 AM
I don't know if this has any relevancy but doesn't it seem strange that this deal was consummated the day before the Red Sox general single game tickets go on sale. Could this be a move by the Sox to increase ticket sales because there probably have been less people than last year interested in buying tickets since the loss of damon, mueller, etc?

The Sox knew that RSN would be very disappointed if they didn't get Crisp because the trade was leaked before they were able to complete it. Is it possible that this type of thing had any effect on them trying to get the deal done? I'm not really sure if this was more of a PR move by the Sox instead of a purely baseball related one. Personally, I think they should have kept Marte and seen what else they could have scratched for centerfield. Maybe I'm just rambling on about this, but its just something I was thinking about.

NDBoston
01-28-06, 07:33 AM
I don't know if this has any relevancy but doesn't it seem strange that this deal was consummated the day before the Red Sox general single game tickets go on sale. Could this be a move by the Sox to increase ticket sales because there probably have been less people than last year interested in buying tickets since the loss of damon, mueller, etc?

The Sox knew that RSN would be very disappointed if they didn't get Crisp because the trade was leaked before they were able to complete it. Is it possible that this type of thing had any effect on them trying to get the deal done? I'm not really sure if this was more of a PR move by the Sox instead of a purely baseball related one. Personally, I think they should have kept Marte and seen what else they could have scratched for centerfield. Maybe I'm just rambling on about this, but its just something I was thinking about.

There's still a waiting list for season tickets and CoCo Crisp isn't going to increase ticket sales to the average fan.

The fact is the Red Sox are still a blistering hot ticket in Boston. With or without Crisp, they were selling out every game this year.

Kangamangus
01-28-06, 07:36 AM
There's still a waiting list for season tickets and CoCo Crisp isn't going to increase ticket sales to the average fan.

The fact is the Red Sox are still a blistering hot ticket in Boston. With or without Crisp, they were selling out every game this year.

Yeah, I guess you're right. Maybe I was just being a little paranoid to bring something like this up. I'm just not a big fan of this trade, but we'll never know how it'll turn out until five or six years down the road.

noneckwilliams
01-28-06, 07:36 AM
I don't know if this has any relevancy but doesn't it seem strange that this deal was consummated the day before the Red Sox general single game tickets go on sale. Could this be a move by the Sox to increase ticket sales because there probably have been less people than last year interested in buying tickets since the loss of damon, mueller, etc?

The Sox knew that RSN would be very disappointed if they didn't get Crisp because the trade was leaked before they were able to complete it. Is it possible that this type of thing had any effect on them trying to get the deal done? I'm not really sure if this was more of a PR move by the Sox instead of a purely baseball related one. Personally, I think they should have kept Marte and seen what else they could have scratched for centerfield. Maybe I'm just rambling on about this, but its just something I was thinking about.

I went online this am to check out the RS ticket situation. They are actually already selling single game tix for some selcted early season games. All that was available are single obstructed view grandstand seats. Selling tix isn't going to be a problem.

hardrain
01-28-06, 07:40 AM
It sure was fun watching this trade/non-trade go back and forth this week. But then again I am easily amused.

Soriambi
01-28-06, 07:41 AM
If I was a Sox fan, I think I'd be happy to get a player like Crisp, but nervous about what Marte might become. I think that this will likely help the Sox, at least for the next couple of years.

Workhorse
01-28-06, 08:18 AM
I believe because Stern was a rule 5 pickup from Atlanta he had to stay on the 25 man roster. If demoted the Braves could get him back. Whenever the RS wanted the roster space it seems Stern would always come up with some very timely "injury" and get DL'd as opposed to them having to send him down and give Atlanta a chance to reclaim him.

I don't see what the big deal about Stern is anyway.

A lot of the word heard down here is that the Braves weren't going to reclaim him anyways since they wouldn't have room for him either.

Workhorse
01-28-06, 08:19 AM
If I was a Sox fan, I think I'd be happy to get a player like Crisp, but nervous about what Marte might become. I think that this will likely help the Sox, at least for the next couple of years.

I'd be a lot more nervous if I was a Braves fan.

Who would YOU least like to have for the next 4 years:

Coco Crisp
Andy Marte
Edgar Renteria

38Special
01-28-06, 08:20 AM
A lot of the word heard down here is that the Braves weren't going to reclaim him anyways since they wouldn't have room for him either.
I guess that makes it better then ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Workhorse
01-28-06, 08:21 AM
I guess that makes it better then ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

:lol:

I hear you.

I'm just saying that it seemed like two teams saying "well, I don't want him, you take him, we don't want him either, well we'll just DL him, fine by me..."

pjfan
01-28-06, 08:57 AM
So, as a Sox fan, for some odd reason, I now feel like i have to root against Andy Marte. I want him to tank it completely.

And I kinda feel bad about it.....I don't even know the guy :D

TommyK8
01-28-06, 09:01 AM
How good is Marte?
That's the $11 million question, and the beauty of it is that it can't be answered for a long time. This debate will go on for a long time. Marte is 22 and projects to play this year in AAA. He, like many other highly touted prospects, could be a star. Or, he may not. Only time will tell.

As for the Red Sox decision to not sign Damon, for whatever reason, they chose to take a pass on him. That decision, too, will be fodder for discussion for a long time to come. But it is consistent with their other decisions to let some of their players who were getting into their 30's go. They let Pedro go, they let Mueller go, they let Millar go, and they traded Nomar, all in less than 1.5 years.

As for Crisp, he was the best option available. I am not going to stand here and predict that he will outplay Johnny Damon over the next 4 years. What I will say is that he's a good player, and most of the time I have actually seen him play has been against the Yankees on YES, and he seemed to always do well. He's a switch hitter with speed, has a little pop, and should be good defensively. He's young and under their control for 4 years. By not signing Damon, the Red Sox had a need and they had to give up talent to get a player like Crisp.

It has been speculated that the difference in philosophy between Theo and Lucchino was over Theo's desire to get younger and concentrate more heavily on pitching and defense. The moves the Red Sox have made this offseason are consistent with that philosophy. They are younger, and have added to their rotation and significantly strengthened the bullpen, all while decreasing payroll by a large amount.

TommyK8
01-28-06, 09:05 AM
So, as a Sox fan, for some odd reason, I now feel like i have to root against Andy Marte. I want him to tank it completely.

And I kinda feel bad about it.....I don't even know the guy :D
I'm not going to root against Marte. We had him for less than 2 months, and we got him for Renteria, who played all of last year as if he had a pole stuck up his butt. We flipped him for Crisp, and I think we got more for him than Atlanta did.

I am going to root for Crisp. If he does well, I am not going to worry about what Marte does.

This is not Jeff Bagwell for Larry Anderson. Anderson was a 40 year middle relief pitcher when the Sox got him. Crisp is a full-time outfielder who is just reaching his prime years.

pjfan
01-28-06, 09:24 AM
oh, believe me, I will be rooting harder for Crisp then against Marte.

as long as Crisp performs, there's no need to worry about Marte.

I guess it's just pecimist in me.....kinda comes with the territory :D

Spiker101
01-28-06, 09:29 AM
However, when a 25 year old guy has progressed every single year of his career, I don't see any reason why he should suddenly decline. Also, Idon't see how a 32 year old guy should suddenly progress.

.

This is a myth. Crisp made a nice jump betweeb his second and third seasons, but his '04 season is virtually identical to his '05 season.
.297/.344/.446/.790 versus .300/.345/.465/.810. What little difference there is in those numbers is almost entirely the result of one extra homer.

And there is a school of thought that players like Crisp (high contact/low patience; think Cano) peak early and never show much improvement. So it's wrong to think there is no risk to Crisp (not to mention the Boston factor) it's just the risk is less than it is for Marte. Still, this is absolutely the best the Sox could have hoped for in their situation.

ieddyi
01-28-06, 09:54 AM
That's the $11 million question, and the beauty of it is that it can't be answered for a long time. This debate will go on for a long time. Marte is 22 and projects to play this year in AAA. He, like many other highly touted prospects, could be a star. Or, he may not. Only time will tell.

As for the Red Sox decision to not sign Damon, for whatever reason, they chose to take a pass on him. That decision, too, will be fodder for discussion for a long time to come. But it is consistent with their other decisions to let some of their players who were getting into their 30's go. They let Pedro go, they let Mueller go, they let Millar go, and they traded Nomar, all in less than 1.5 years.

As for Crisp, he was the best option available. I am not going to stand here and predict that he will outplay Johnny Damon over the next 4 years. What I will say is that he's a good player, and most of the time I have actually seen him play has been against the Yankees on YES, and he seemed to always do well. He's a switch hitter with speed, has a little pop, and should be good defensively. He's young and under their control for 4 years. By not signing Damon, the Red Sox had a need and they had to give up talent to get a player like Crisp.

It has been speculated that the difference in philosophy between Theo and Lucchino was over Theo's desire to get younger and concentrate more heavily on pitching and defense. The moves the Red Sox have made this offseason are consistent with that philosophy. They are younger, and have added to their rotation and significantly strengthened the bullpen, all while decreasing payroll by a large amount.


But it is consistent with their other decisions to let some of their players who were getting into their 30's go. They let Pedro go, they let Mueller go, they let Millar go, and they traded Nomar, all in less than 1.5 years.

Pedro was not let go because he was "into his 30's" it was the mets offering him the extra year- an offer NO ONE else thinks about making- that sealed his departure- if the MEts only go 3 years he stays a sawx. Millar flat out sucked- age not a factor there. Mueller- I think they will miss him this year very much. Nomar- had nothing to do with age- it was all the other surrounding issues- injury/sulking etc.

It's the almsot anal insistence that Damon was worth 4/40 but was clearly outrageous at 4/46 that seems like a reach. Look at the signings the last off season and tell me again how their xray value machine is infallible. There is always chance involved when you're dealing with human aging/progression/regression. The problem comes in putting too much reliance on Van like numbers.
I also don't get the glee with the greatly reduced payroll. The sawx haven't been held back monetarily that I'm aware of. They can outbid everyone except the Yanks for players and that's not gonna change.
I agree that Crisp was probably as good as they're gonna do ONCE they let Damon go. It's the logic up to that point that I have trouble with.

(Comments are directed at the sawx FO- not you personally

Pepper03
01-28-06, 09:55 AM
.

As for the Red Sox decision to not sign Damon, for whatever reason, they chose to take a pass on him. That decision, too, will be fodder for discussion for a long time to come. But it is consistent with their other decisions to let some of their players who were getting into their 30's go. They let Pedro go, they let Mueller go, they let Millar go, and they traded Nomar, all in less than 1.5 years.




Anyone interested should take a look at Verducci's article in this weeks SI.

An interesting point raised "Epstein didn't like the idea of having four of the eight every-day players (Damon, Renteria, Varitek and Ramirez) locked in at a combined $50 million per year through 2008 while aging through their thirties."

I take this to mean JD wasn't going to come back unless he agreed to take alot less than he could get with another team.

I agree the Red Sox need to get young, I've said so before. How much of the offense slowing down in September was fatigue?

Much as I hated to see Damon go and hate to see them give up their best prospect, I like the direction they are going in.

Rice14
01-28-06, 10:12 AM
Anyone interested should take a look at Verducci's article in this weeks SI.

An interesting point raised "Epstein didn't like the idea of having four of the eight every-day players (Damon, Renteria, Varitek and Ramirez) locked in at a combined $50 million per year through 2008 while aging through their thirties."

I take this to mean JD wasn't going to come back unless he agreed to take alot less than he could get with another team.

I agree the Red Sox need to get young, I've said so before. How much of the offense slowing down in September was fatigue?

Much as I hated to see Damon go and hate to see them give up their best prospect, I like the direction they are going in.

I agree with that too. In one of the older Red Sox threads I stated that it worried me to have Renteria, Varitek, and Damon up the middle in their 30's at 10 mill. per year. I said this back in September too, long before Damon became a Yankee.(I'm too lazy to go find the actual post though).

Still, I would have much preferred the Sox to have had a better plan in place to replace Damon and Renteria. the price of replacing those players may turn out to be much higher than if they had kept them--particularly Damon.