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Tex_Pettite
01-23-06, 08:05 PM
Tough to compare Riske to Dotel. Each will likely have very different roles from one another. If Riske doesn't succeed in Boston, it will likely be less of a blow than if Dotel fails in NY (or doesn't pitch much due to injury).

ShaneTravis
01-23-06, 08:17 PM
I didn't care to read after this first line.

Beckett
Papelbon
Seanez
Tavarez
Riske

Have all been added plus There is NO WAY we won't get more from Schilling this year. I am not saying he is going to be great but you have to admit he will be better then 05.

Not to break up the Riske party the last 2 pages...but, are the Redsox really getting him? Or are you speculating/hoping?

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 08:19 PM
Not to break up the Riske party the last 2 pages...but, are the Redsox really getting him? Or are you speculating/hoping?

Conflicting reports. Rosenthal didn't mention it, the Globe said its a done deal. No one really knows.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-23-06, 08:19 PM
Not to break up the Riske party the last 2 pages...but, are the Redsox really getting him? Or are you speculating/hoping?

Right now I think it is just Marte for Crisp, I think. Im not sure who I would rather the Red Sox have Mota or Riske. I guess Riske as Mota seems to be lights out every other year and horrible the next and he was horrible last year.

ShaneTravis
01-23-06, 08:24 PM
Conflicting reports. Rosenthal didn't mention it, the Globe said its a done deal. No one really knows.

Not, that I don't believe you or if/when it happens but I was hoping you had a link. I will go check around.....

Well, this is the newest from the Herald updated @ 05:49 AM EST
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=122555&format=&page=2

"It is believed the Sox and Indians came close to a three-team trade involving the Cincinnati Reds that would have landed Crisp and pitcher David Riske in Boston, only to have matters fall apart due to Redsí reluctance."

Dooley Womack
01-23-06, 08:26 PM
I wonder where some of the Sox fans would rank the fearsome Riske in the Sox far superior pen. :lol:

This is beyond ridiculous. I've yet to see one Sox fan go ballistic with ANY Sox move as you'll see from Yankee fans here with some transactons they consider questionable (and I'm not necessarily talking about this trade). It's OK, guys, we know you're behind enemy lines and can't give the enemy the satisfaction. But, please, bring a better front to the forum, it'll make you look more sincere like your brethren in that infamous Sox forum. At least periodically they have no problem calling a spade a spade.

Maybe Yanks fans should just give up posting in these Sox forums or just agree that all new Sox players are "Teh Best!!!1" and all former Sox players are "Teh Suck!!!1"

Mystic Merlyn
01-23-06, 08:33 PM
I am consistent, I don't think anyone can deny that. I have touted Crisp for a month.

However, if this deal expands then I won't be happy at all.

EDIT-Also, I am more neutral about this trade as I have examined it more closely. I still like it, but the prospect of Marte turning into a perennial All-Star scares me, while Crisp will have a ceiling of about an .850 OPS. That is very good, but there is a chance the Sox get killed on this long-term.

splanky
01-23-06, 08:35 PM
I live in Portland and saw him play for the Sea Dogs quite a few times. He would wiff so badly that he lost his bat and it flung into the seats -twice- in one game. No I'm not kidding. Not exactly scientific - but I think "clueless" is perhaps his state of being --- maybe that's just how he plays - loses the bat, looks like he's swinging with a leaded bat, etc.



The other thing about Shoppach (and I know some Yankees fans will call this sour grapes), he did get about 20 AB (15) in the ML and he looked utterly, completely, entirely, clueless.

I know he has good power numbers in the minors.... I know he has been a "top catching prospect" for some time now... but WOW. He didn't even look like he could get around on my fastball! just looked bad, bad, bad, bad.

0 for 15 with 7K's doesn't even tell the story of how bad he looked.

I know nothing more about him. Never watched him play in the minors. Maybe he was sick or nervous or whatever. His swing was slow and ugly.

Tex_Pettite
01-23-06, 08:35 PM
Dooley Womack,

Relievers are very volatile. If you've put alot of similarly quality middle relievers in your bullpen, chances are a few will live up to your expecations, while a few won't.

It appears the Red Sox will throw these guys at the wall in '06 and see what sticks.

Foulke, Timlin, Tavarez, Papelbon, Seanez, Mota/Riske, Hansen, Delcarmen, Arroyo, Lester, etc.

ieddyi
01-23-06, 09:00 PM
Want to make an arguement to prove me wrong? Or you just going to drop in these little one-line Gems?

A MUCH improved pitching staff, sure there is question marks but there is no doubt they are better. Bullpen has been ravamped, a full year of Paps and a healthy Schilling is going to make us better.

We have gotten much younger. Last year Boston didn't have a single starting position player under 30 at the end of the season. This year it looks like we will have at least three.

A MUCH improved Defense. You could argue that the Sox will have a GG candidate at all four IF positions. The OF defense isn't that great but is about on Par with last year.

Offense shouldn't take much of a hit if any. Still having Papi/Manny combo, with the fact that Crisp/Loretta should be much more productive then Damon/Renteria.

"You could argue that the Sox will have a GG candidate at all four IF positions.

You COULD argue that the moon is made of blue cheese also>

Youkilis, who hasn't spent much time at all at 1B and has never shown to be a defensive whiz anywhere is now a GG candidate??
Candidacy as determined by playing the requisite number of games- sure.

Making arguments to "prove someone wrong" this time of year is impossible- it's all conjecture- in your case w/ obvious bias

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 09:01 PM
I wonder where some of the Sox fans would rank the fearsome Riske in the Sox far superior pen. :lol:

This is beyond ridiculous. I've yet to see one Sox fan go ballistic with ANY Sox move as you'll see from Yankee fans here with some transactons they consider questionable (and I'm not necessarily talking about this trade). It's OK, guys, we know you're behind enemy lines and can't give the enemy the satisfaction. But, please, bring a better front to the forum, it'll make you look more sincere like your brethren in that infamous Sox forum. At least periodically they have no problem calling a spade a spade.

Maybe Yanks fans should just give up posting in these Sox forums or just agree that all new Sox players are "Teh Best!!!1" and all former Sox players are "Teh Suck!!!1"

Are you serious?

Or is the Crown Royal just flowing freely tonight?

Edit: For the record, there was plenty of vitriol when it was suggested that Marte was about to go to Tampa for Julio Lugo. And plenty of folks went ballistic at the thought that Manny Ramirez was about to be traded, especially for pennies on the dollar. But none of those things actually took place. Do you want us to shake our fists and scream about trades we actually think improve the club?

jonnyc39
01-23-06, 09:04 PM
This is beyond ridiculous. I've yet to see one Sox fan go ballistic with ANY Sox move as you'll see from Yankee fans here with some transactons they consider questionable (and I'm not necessarily talking about this trade). It's OK, guys, we know you're behind enemy lines and can't give the enemy the satisfaction. But, please, bring a better front to the forum, it'll make you look more sincere like your brethren in that infamous Sox forum. At least periodically they have no problem calling a spade a spade.

Maybe Yanks fans should just give up posting in these Sox forums or just agree that all new Sox players are "Teh Best!!!1" and all former Sox players are "Teh Suck!!!1"
Dooley cut the bull................. You speak as if you are a single ounce above the fellow posters you speak of. I'd like to see you call out exactly which people you think need to "bring a better front" or "look more sincere."

If you scan this thread ALONE, you will see Sox fans say that they regret losing Marte. You'll see Sox fans say that all things equal, they'd rather have Damon over Crisp. You'll see Sox fans say that they don't understand the rumored Gonzalez signing. Scanning other threads, you'll see Sox fans call the Sox FO a circus and a soap opera. It's a laundry list.

Honestly: I think the Sox have made some questionable moves. Any that make me want to "go ballistic"? Nope. Sorry.

If you think Yanks fans should give up posting here, then go for it. But myself and many other posters actually enjoy the debate that occurs when people with two different points of view collide.

Tex_Pettite
01-23-06, 09:06 PM
Youkilis, who hasn't spent much time at all at 1B and has never shown to be a defensive whiz anywhere is now a GG candidate??

I think he's talking about JT Snow. Though compared to Kevin Millar, Youkilis will probably resemble a Gold Glover.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 09:10 PM
"You could argue that the Sox will have a GG candidate at all four IF positions.

You COULD argue that the moon is made of blue cheese also>

Youkilis, who hasn't spent much time at all at 1B and has never shown to be a defensive whiz anywhere is now a GG candidate??
Candidacy as determined by playing the requisite number of games- sure.

Making arguments to "prove someone wrong" this time of year is impossible- it's all conjecture- in your case w/ obvious bias

Honestly I am not that baised. I just call people out when they are clearly wrong. The poster said that we "magically are better then last year" when its pretty obvious that while the '06 Red Sox are very different then the '05 they have improved alot. esp. on Defense and pitching.

Then of course I was accused of Cherry pickign stats when the only arguement I got in turn was "His BABIP was high and Dotels numbers as a set-up guy are sick" Simply amazing stuff.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-23-06, 09:14 PM
Honestly I am not that baised. I just call people out when they are clearly wrong. The poster said that we "magically are better then last year" when its pretty obvious that while the '06 Red Sox are very different then the '05 they have improved alot. esp. on Defense and pitching.

Then of course I was accused of Cherry pickign stats when the only arguement I got in turn was "His BABIP was high and Dotels numbers as a set-up guy are sick" Simply amazing stuff.

Lol you took 3 year splits of two guys where one was injured one year, in a wrong role for him another year(and he isnt the only guy who is a good set up man but bad closer). The other guy had a year that I would bet my life on him never having again last year. Yup thats fair. BTW if you adjust Riskes BABIP to league average his whip is more like 1.45 last year nearly identicle to what he did in 2004, but who cares about that or his horrible home run rates?

38Special
01-23-06, 09:19 PM
He's been doing that as long as hes been posting here. He twists whatever stats he can find (but blatantly leaves out ones that murder his arguements). Like showing strikeout totals but OOPS i forgot the ABs, does that put it in context? lolies

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 09:20 PM
Lol you took 3 year splits of two guys where one was injured one year, in a wrong role for him another year(and he isnt the only guy who is a good set up man but bad closer). The other guy had a year that I would bet my life on him never having again last year. Yup thats fair. BTW if you adjust Riskes BABIP to league average his whip is more like 1.45 last year nearly identicle to what he did in 2004, but who cares about that or his horrible home run rates?

OK, so perhaps you want to take a crack at this less cherry-picked comparison. Here are the VORP numbers for both pitchers in the last four seasons:

2002: Dotel 37.1 Riske 2.1 (rookie)
2003: Dotel 29.3 Riske 29.6
2004: Dotel 19.4 Riske 22.0
2005: Dotel 3.8 (injured) Riske 18.7

I'm undoubtedly missing evidence that Dotel is the superior pitcher here. Looks to me like a.) Riske is his equal or superior every year since Riske's rookie year, and b.) both pitchers are trending downward, which shouldn't give Yankee OR Red Sox fans anything to beat their chests about.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 09:21 PM
Lol you took 3 year splits of two guys where one was injured one year, in a wrong role for him another year(and he isnt the only guy who is a good set up man but bad closer). The other guy had a year that I would bet my life on him never having again last year. Yup thats fair. BTW if you adjust Riskes BABIP to league average his whip is more like 1.45 last year nearly identicle to what he did in 2004, but who cares about that or his horrible home run rates?

I'm sorry but there just isn't an arguement that Dotel has been better then Riske the last three years. I don't care what his BABIP has been. And you would bet he would never have another year like last year when he already had a better year then that in 2003. I don't know why everyone is getting so defensive. Dotel was a good signings. OK! He was a GOOD signing. He just hasn't been as good as Riske the last three years. Thus being the Yankees third best reliever, which is what sparked the arguement.

38Special
01-23-06, 09:29 PM
OK, so perhaps you want to take a crack at this less cherry-picked comparison. Here are the VORP numbers for both pitchers in the last four seasons:

2002: Dotel 37.1 Riske 2.1 (rookie)
2003: Dotel 29.3 Riske 29.6
2004: Dotel 19.4 Riske 22.0
2005: Dotel 3.8 (injured) Riske 18.7

I'm undoubtedly missing evidence that Dotel is the superior pitcher here. Looks to me like a.) Riske is his equal or superior every year since Riske's rookie year, and b.) both pitchers are trending downward, which shouldn't give Yankee OR Red Sox fans anything to beat their chests about.

Oh man VORP sweet

ieddyi
01-23-06, 09:30 PM
Honestly I am not that baised. I just call people out when they are clearly wrong. The poster said that we "magically are better then last year" when its pretty obvious that while the '06 Red Sox are very different then the '05 they have improved alot. esp. on Defense and pitching.

Then of course I was accused of Cherry pickign stats when the only arguement I got in turn was "His BABIP was high and Dotels numbers as a set-up guy are sick" Simply amazing stuff.

Honestly I am not that baised

But then you make statements like the sawx having an all GG infield and don't even try to defend it, and wonder why you get flack for being fanboyish

Dooley Womack
01-23-06, 09:32 PM
Dooley cut the bull................. You speak as if you are a single ounce above the fellow posters you speak of. I'd like to see you call out exactly which people you think need to "bring a better front" or "look more sincere."

If you scan this thread ALONE, you will see Sox fans say that they regret losing Marte. You'll see Sox fans say that all things equal, they'd rather have Damon over Crisp. You'll see Sox fans say that they don't understand the rumored Gonzalez signing. Scanning other threads, you'll see Sox fans call the Sox FO a circus and a soap opera. It's a laundry list.

Honestly: I think the Sox have made some questionable moves. Any that make me want to "go ballistic"? Nope. Sorry.

If you think Yanks fans should give up posting here, then go for it. But myself and many other posters actually enjoy the debate that occurs when people with two different points of view collide.

jonny, fans are fans, regardless of the team they root for. I'm sure you'll agree. Now take a look at the outcry in ITL when a Yankees fan isn't content with a deal. Ditto SoSH. Why is that passion missing here with the Sox fans? Are you guys who come here a totally different breed? YES, I've seen some disappointment when you guys lose certain players but INVARIABLY it results in "it was better for the team" and ridiculous stats are thrown out to prove it. Turning Riske into the second coming of Bruce Sutter is the latest example. For anyone to suggest that would possibly be the Yanks 2nd best reliever is either doing serious drugs or trolling.....or has some fanboy issues.

If anybody thinks I'm being hypocritical or a Yankee fanboy, then take a better look at my posts in ITL. I think those who know me know how harsh I can be with my own team.

I think you misinterpreted my saying that Yanks fans shouldn't post here. Maybe I should be clearer when I'm being facetious or sarcastic.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 09:33 PM
Honestly I am not that baised

But then you make statements like the sawx having an all GG infield and don't even try to defend it, and wonder why you get flack for being fanboyish

Um ok...

Mike Lowell GG last year
Alex Gonzalez - known for his great glove horrible bat
Mark Loretta - one of the steadiest 2nd baseman out there
J.T. Snow - how many GG does this guy have? ALOT!


I didn't even say winning a GG means that much but i don't think it isn't realistic to think they could all win a GG.

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 09:33 PM
Oh man VORP sweet

We could use ERA+ if it makes it any clearer.

2003: Riske 186 Dotel 178
2004: Riske 122 Dotel 123
2005: Riske 132 Dotel 128

Doesn't change much. These are two very similar pitchers, with a slight edge to Riske.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 09:34 PM
Oh man VORP sweet
So what, if any, stats do you have to back-up Dotel being better then Riske?

gdn
01-23-06, 09:35 PM
Um ok...

Mike Lowell GG last year
Alex Gonzalez - known for his great glove horrible bat
Mark Loretta - one of the steadiest 2nd baseman out there
J.T. Snow - how many GG does this guy have? ALOT!


I didn't even say winning a GG means that much but i don't think it isn't realistic to think they could all win a GG.Wasn't Alex Gonzalez the guy that cost the Cubs a shot at the WS? Just sayin'....


Carry on, don't mean to get involved.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 09:36 PM
Wasn't Alex Gonzalez the guy that cost the Cubs a shot at the WS? Just sayin'....


Carry on, don't mean to get involved.

Different Alex Gonalez

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 09:36 PM
jonny, fans are fans, regardless of the team they root for. I'm sure you'll agree. Now take a look at the outcry in ITL when a Yankees fan isn't content with a deal. Ditto SoSH. Why is that passion missing here with the Sox fans? Are you guys who come here a totally different breed? YES, I've seen some disappointment when you guys lose certain players but INVARIABLY it results in "it was better for the team" and ridiculous stats are thrown out to prove it. Making Riske the second coming of Bruce Sutter is the latest example. For anyoe to say he can possibly be the Yanks 2nd best reliever is either doiung serious drugs or trolling.

If anybody thinks I'm being hypocritical or a Yankee fanboy, then take a better look at my posts in ITL. I think those who know me know how harsh I can be with my own team.

I think you misinterpreted my saying that Yanks fans shouldn't post here. Maybe I should be clearer when I'm being facetious or sarcastic.

Dooley, what specific moves that the Sox have made should be inspiring such an outburst? Lowell is a questionable pickup, sure, but the other half of that pickup is Josh Beckett. Mirabelli for Loretta? Renteria for Crisp via Marte? I'm not sure where you want the passion to come from. These are all moves that have a strong possibility or even a likelihood of improving the team.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-23-06, 09:36 PM
OK, so perhaps you want to take a crack at this less cherry-picked comparison. Here are the VORP numbers for both pitchers in the last four seasons:

2002: Dotel 37.1 Riske 2.1 (rookie)
2003: Dotel 29.3 Riske 29.6
2004: Dotel 19.4 Riske 22.0
2005: Dotel 3.8 (injured) Riske 18.7

I'm undoubtedly missing evidence that Dotel is the superior pitcher here. Looks to me like a.) Riske is his equal or superior every year since Riske's rookie year, and b.) both pitchers are trending downward, which shouldn't give Yankee OR Red Sox fans anything to beat their chests about.

1)VORP doesn't include leverage for relievers, which renders it useless.

2)The only year there where you can compare the two fairly is 2003. In 2004 Dotel was a closer I believe and like other pitchers he is just not fit to close.

3)Im not arguing if Dotel was better the last 3 years,I never was, I dont care about the last 3 years. I was arguing about as of 2006 if Riske would be the third best bullpen guy for the Yankees if Dotel was healthy and not a closer.

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 09:37 PM
Um ok...

Mike Lowell GG last year
Alex Gonzalez - known for his great glove horrible bat
Mark Loretta - one of the steadiest 2nd baseman out there
J.T. Snow - how many GG does this guy have? ALOT!


I didn't even say winning a GG means that much but i don't think it isn't realistic to think they could all win a GG.

If JT Snow plays enough to win a Gold Glove, it'll be to the general detriment of our offense. Better to hope for the defensively inferior Youkilis, who'll bring a much bigger stick.

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 09:38 PM
1)VORP doesn't include leverage for relievers, which renders it useless.

Renders it useless in comparing a starter to a reliever. VORP remains VERY effective in comparing two relievers.

Dooley Womack
01-23-06, 09:39 PM
Dooley, what specific moves that the Sox have made should be inspiring such an outburst? Lowell is a questionable pickup, sure, but the other half of that pickup is Josh Beckett. Mirabelli for Loretta? Renteria for Crisp via Marte? I'm not sure where you want the passion to come from. These are all moves that have a strong possibility or even a likelihood of improving the team.

"Outburst" might be a strong word, but does EVERY Sox move have a silver lining? If a stranger to baseball were to read the Sox threads that's the conclusion they'd come up with.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread any further.

MiamiKat
01-23-06, 09:40 PM
Um ok...

Mike Lowell GG last year
Alex Gonzalez - known for his great glove horrible bat
Mark Loretta - one of the steadiest 2nd baseman out there
J.T. Snow - how many GG does this guy have? ALOT!


I didn't even say winning a GG means that much but i don't think it isn't realistic to think they could all win a GG.
A GG means nothing. Jason Varitek won a GG last year, and he ranked pretty far down the list in fielding stats. And he only caught Wakefield when Mirabelli was hurt.

(Jeter won a GG too that was questionable...I know, I know...)

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-23-06, 09:40 PM
We could use ERA+ if it makes it any clearer.

2003: Riske 186 Dotel 178
2004: Riske 122 Dotel 123
2005: Riske 132 Dotel 128

Doesn't change much. These are two very similar pitchers, with a slight edge to Riske.

So you are saying when Dotel is either injured or a closer 2 of 3 years he is very close to being as good as Riske right? So for 2006 if Dotel is healthy and a set up man I would imagine that he is better, especially considering that Riske should have had a 1.45 whip last season with a league average BABIP and had one close to that in 2004 and his strike out numbers are declining.

gdn
01-23-06, 09:40 PM
Different Alex GonalezBut it was Alex Gonzalez.

Prickly Pete
01-23-06, 09:40 PM
"Outburst" might be a strong word, but does EVERY Sox move have a silver lining?
That's what happens when you have the deftest front office in the history of deftness.

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 09:41 PM
Turning Riske into the second coming of Bruce Sutter is the latest example. For anyone to suggest that would possibly be the Yanks 2nd best reliever is either doing serious drugs or trolling.....or has some fanboy issues.

Rather than knee-jerk the idea as BS, look at the numbers. Is Farnsworth seriously head-and-shoulders, indisputably better than Riske?

I think I've already demonstrated that Riske is, at the very least, Dotel's equal.

Either way, no one is remotely comparing Riske to a guy who's even the caliber of a closer, much less a Hall of Fame closer. You're fighting straw men here.

JeffWeaverFan
01-23-06, 09:42 PM
We could use ERA+ if it makes it any clearer.

2003: Riske 186 Dotel 178
2004: Riske 122 Dotel 123
2005: Riske 132 Dotel 128

Doesn't change much. These are two very similar pitchers, with a slight edge to Riske.
You are using horrible stats for relief pitchers. There are 3 very important stats for relief pitchers. In fact, they are important for every pitcher, but especially relief pitchers. And I've explained why this is true many times.

They are: K/9, K/BB, and G/F. If you want to compare relievers, use those stats. ERA+ is crap for a reliever.

edit: And don't even take 2005 into account for Dotel as he only threw 15 innings and needed surgery when he was pitching.

BronxByTheBay
01-23-06, 09:43 PM
(Jeter won a GG too that was questionable...I know, I know...)

You wouldn't have even bothered to add that qualifier if a Yankee poster had offered Jeter's GG in defense of his fielding. Virtually every Sox fan on the board would have done it for you.

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 09:43 PM
So you are saying when Dotel is either injured or a closer 2 of 3 years he is very close to being as good as Riske right? So for 2006 if Dotel is healthy and a set up man I would imagine that he is better, especially considering that Riske should have had a 1.45 whip last season with a league average BABIP and had one close to that in 2004 and his strike out numbers are declining.

Weren't you just saying that 2003 is the only year we can justifiably compare the two? 2003, in which Riske's VORP and ERA+ were both slightly better than Dotel's? And I have said several times that BOTH pitchers' numbers are declining (Dotel's were even BEFORE the injury).

38Special
01-23-06, 09:44 PM
But it was Alex Gonzalez.

The curse of the Alex Gonzalez......ez

gdn
01-23-06, 09:45 PM
The curse of the Alex Gonzalez......ezNot much better than a billy goat. In fact, I think the offensive production can be considered close to equal, no?

Prickly Pete
01-23-06, 09:46 PM
Two things on the Riske/Dotel comparison:

1. Yankee fans who expect Dotel to be a healthy and important contributor in 2006 are likely to be very disappointed. I don't care how hard he is working or what his agent says in the offseason, Tommy John surgery has an extremely well dcoumented timeline: 12 months before he's on the mound again (that would be June for Dotel) and 18-24 months (total) until he has both his velocity and command back (that would be 2007 for Dotel).

2. Red Sox fans who are excited about adding Riske to the pen should wonder about a precipitous drop in K-rate last season and the Indians' unwillingness to use him down the stretch of a pennant race. For a reliever who has pitched a decent amount of innings the previous few years, those facts suggest either an injury or the beginning of a flame-out.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-23-06, 09:46 PM
Weren't you just saying that 2003 is the only year we can justifiably compare the two? 2003, in which Riske's VORP and ERA+ were both slightly better than Dotel's? And I have said several times that BOTH pitchers' numbers are declining (Dotel's were even BEFORE the injury).

Im not arguing about 2003 Riske was slighlty better that year(it was his best year of his career and Dotels best year was 2002)but I believe that if Dotel was healthy in the set up role in the other 2 years that he would have been better those 2 years. Furthermore if both are healthy this year that Dotel will be better, especially if Riske pitches the same as last year with a normal BABIP. Is that so hard to believe?

Tex_Pettite
01-23-06, 09:47 PM
"Outburst" might be a strong word, but does EVERY Sox move have a silver lining?

Every year the Red Sox are in trouble. Last year it was the loss of Pedro and Lowe. How would they ever recover? So they went out and won 95 games again, while getting almost nothing from Schilling and Foulke all year. Not to mention horrible play from key positions like Millar, Bellhorn, and Renteria.

38Special
01-23-06, 09:48 PM
Two things on the Riske/Dotel comparison:

1. Yankee fans who expect Dotel to be a healthy and important contributor in 2006 are likely to be very disappointed. I don't care how hard he is working or what his agent says in the offseason, Tommy John surgery has an extremely well dcoumented timeline: 12 months before he's on the mound again (that would be June for Dotel) and 18-24 months (total) until he has both his velocity and command back (that would be 2007 for Dotel).

2. Red Sox fans who are excited about adding Riske to the pen should wonder about a precipitous drop in K-rate last season and the Indians' unwillingness to use him down the stretch of a pennant race. For a reliever who has pitched a decent amount of innings the previous few years, those facts suggest either an injury or the beginning of a flame-out.

I like the way you think. Why can't we have more logical discussions here instead of this nutty stuff.

JeffWeaverFan
01-23-06, 09:49 PM
Furthermore if both are healthy this year that Dotel will be better, especially if Riske pitches the same as last year with a normal BABIP. Is that so hard to believe?
I don't understand how someone might not believe it... If Riske pitches like he did last year, you better believe there will be a huge jump in his ERA.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-23-06, 09:50 PM
Two things on the Riske/Dotel comparison:

1. Yankee fans who expect Dotel to be a healthy and important contributor in 2006 are likely to be very disappointed. I don't care how hard he is working or what his agent says in the offseason, Tommy John surgery has an extremely well dcoumented timeline: 12 months before he's on the mound again (that would be June for Dotel) and 18-24 months (total) until he has both his velocity and command back (that would be 2007 for Dotel).

2. Red Sox fans who are excited about adding Riske to the pen should wonder about a precipitous drop in K-rate last season and the Indians' unwillingness to use him down the stretch of a pennant race. For a reliever who has pitched a decent amount of innings the previous few years, those facts suggest either an injury or the beginning of a flame-out.

I dont disagree with that but we were talking about if healthy who would be the third best pitcher on the Yankees bullpen.

MiamiKat
01-23-06, 09:50 PM
You wouldn't have even bothered to add that qualifier if a Yankee poster had offered Jeter's GG in defense of his fielding. Virtually every Sox fan on the board would have done it for you.

In this case, it was necessary to be pre-emptive.

Although Varitek's GG is a far, far bigger joke than Jeter's.

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 09:50 PM
Im not arguing about 2003 Riske was slighlty better that year(it was his best year of his career and Dotels best year was 2002)but I believe that if Dotel was healthy in the set up role in the other 2 years that he would have been better those 2 years. Furthermore if both are healthy this year that Dotel will be better, especially if Riske pitches the same as last year with a normal BABIP. Is that so hard to believe?

Nope. In fact, somewhere back in this morass of postings, I did say that Dotel has the potential to be as good as, or better than, Riske. Riske simply appears to have been more consistent over the years, and I'm not sure when Dotel will be pitching at full strength again. Having just suffered through a season of false bravado from Curt Schilling, I'm leery of guys who say they're waaaay ahead of schedule, especially with surgery such as TJ.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-23-06, 09:52 PM
Nope. In fact, somewhere back in this morass of postings, I did say that Dotel has the potential to be as good as, or better than, Riske. Riske simply appears to have been more consistent over the years, and I'm not sure when Dotel will be pitching at full strength again. Having just suffered through a season of false bravado from Curt Schilling, I'm leery of guys who say they're waaaay ahead of schedule, especially with surgery such as TJ.

Ok then I guess we just misunderstood eachothers points I guess. I have also said I have no idea the chances of Dotel being healthy(but if he is I think he will be better than Riske;) )

Dooley Womack
01-23-06, 09:53 PM
Um ok...

Mike Lowell GG last year
Alex Gonzalez - known for his great glove horrible bat
Mark Loretta - one of the steadiest 2nd baseman out there
J.T. Snow - how many GG does this guy have? ALOT!


I didn't even say winning a GG means that much but i don't think it isn't realistic to think they could all win a GG.


Have you watched Snow play lately? I have!

Prickly Pete
01-23-06, 09:53 PM
I dont disagree with that but we were talking about if healthy who would be the third best pitcher on the Yankees bullpen.
I understand. From 2001-2003, Octavio Dotel was utterly dominant as a set-up man, and when healthy and in the right role again, I imagine he'll be pretty effective again.

I was just adding my opinion on the likelihood of him being that guy in 2006.

38Special
01-23-06, 09:54 PM
Nope. In fact, somewhere back in this morass of postings, I did say that Dotel has the potential to be as good as, or better than, Riske. Riske simply appears to have been more consistent over the years, and I'm not sure when Dotel will be pitching at full strength again. Having just suffered through a season of false bravado from Curt Schilling, I'm leery of guys who say they're waaaay ahead of schedule, especially with surgery such as TJ.

Potential to be as good as Riske? Even if their stats have been close the last 3 years (when Dotel was in closer situation and Riske as the 3rd or 4th man), look at the last time Dotel was a setup man. I dont see how you can say that Riske is more consistent. Dotel hurt his arm last year, thats it.

If Dotel is healthy, and thats a big IF, I'd hedge my bets on Dotel being much better than Riske.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 09:55 PM
I'm glad they are getting rid of Marte. His elbow was a wreck. He won;t be worth anything until 2008 at the earliest. And I hear he has a third nipple.

Coco Crisp will be a great acquisition. If he's not a future first ballot HOF-er, I'm not sure who is. Just putting on a Red Sox uniform alone should add 200 career HR's plus 4 inches to each bicep and quad. And I hear that he's put up both kidneys on EBay with the proceeds to go to widows, orphans, and dyslexic ex-Gozer worshippers.

On a related note, I'm glad the Cubs signed Wade Miller. He wasn't worth a roster spot. He never threw a no-hitter for the Sox. And I hear that he once taught a boy scout troop how to blow snot-rockets without getting caught in class.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 09:55 PM
Turning Riske into the second coming of Bruce Sutter is the latest example. For anyone to suggest that would possibly be the Yanks 2nd best reliever is either doing serious drugs or trolling.....or has some fanboy issues.

Maybe you should look at the stats then actually make an arguement before claiming people are on drugs.

JeffWeaverFan
01-23-06, 09:55 PM
I understand. From 2001-2003, Octavio Dotel was utterly dominant as a set-up man, and when healthy and in the right role again, I imagine he'll be pretty effective again.

I was just adding my opinion on the likelihood of him being that guy in 2006.
I don't think there's a chance he could be the guy he was from 2001-2003 this next year, but I do think that he could come in and be a good 7th inning guy when he gets back in, say, June. Torre will have to be careful with him though... And that is concerning.

38Special
01-23-06, 09:56 PM
Maybe you should look at the stats then actually make an arguement before claiming people are on drugs.

That's an awfully ironic statement

donniesrecordholdsup
01-23-06, 09:56 PM
Maybe you should look at the stats then actually make an arguement before claiming people are on drugs.
he's not better then farnsworth so how would he be the yanks second best releiver ??

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 09:58 PM
Potential to be as good as Riske? Even if their stats have been close the last 3 years (when Dotel was in closer situation and Riske as the 3rd or 4th man), look at the last time Dotel was a setup man. I dont see how you can say that Riske is more consistent. Dotel hurt his arm last year, thats it.

If Dotel is healthy, and thats a big IF, I'd hedge my bets on Dotel being much better than Riske.

I don't see how you say Riske HASN'T been more consistent. Please show us. I'm not even being sarcastic. I want to see how Riske hasn't been more consistent.

JeffWeaverFan
01-23-06, 10:00 PM
My only question is why do people even waste their time with SBS?

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-23-06, 10:00 PM
I'm glad they are getting rid of Marte. His elbow was a wreck. He won;t be worth anything until 2008 at the earliest. And I hear he has a third nipple.

Coco Crisp will be a great acquisition. If he's not a future first ballot HOF-er, I'm not sure who is. Just putting on a Red Sox uniform alone should add 200 career HR's plus 4 inches to each bicep and quad. And I hear that he's put up both kidneys on EBay with the proceeds to go to widows, orphans, and dyslexic ex-Gozer worshippers.

On a related note, I'm glad the Cubs signed Wade Miller. He wasn't worth a roster spot. He never threw a no-hitter for the Sox. And I hear that he once taught a boy scout troop how to blow snot-rockets without getting caught in class.

:roflmao: I actually thought you were serious until the third sentance.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 10:04 PM
My only question is why do people even waste their time with SBS?

Hell I don't know, its pretty clear I am nothing but a stupid fanboy.

Prickly Pete
01-23-06, 10:04 PM
I don't think there's a chance he could be the guy he was from 2001-2003 this next year, but I do think that he could come in and be a good 7th inning guy when he gets back in, say, June. Torre will have to be careful with him though... And that is concerning.
It's possible that he'll be effective when he returns, but history suggests it's unlikely. That's all I was trying to say.

AJ Burnett had his TJ surgery in May 2003 and was back pitching for the Marlins 13 months later, which is pretty fast. But he wasn't good at all for the first two months (ERA over 5.00, IIRC) and although he started to pitch much better in July and August, they had to shut him down in September with elbow soreness because they had rushed him. It wasn't until 2005 -- about 22 months after the surgery -- that he was throwing like himself again.

I think it was a smart gamble to sign Dotel -- $2 million is nothing considering his upside. I wish the Red Sox had done it. But I'd definitely temper my enthusiasm about his prospects for 2006.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 10:05 PM
I think it was a smart gamble to sign Dotel -- $2 million is nothing considering his upside. I wish the Red Sox had done it. But I'd definitely temper my enthusiasm about his prospects for 2006.

I've said this 1,000 times yet they still continue to be defensive about it. There is no way in HELL that anyone is better then Dotel, don't you know that?

38Special
01-23-06, 10:05 PM
My only question is why do people even waste their time with SBS?

You know when you go to 7-11 for the purpose of buying a drink, but your eyes catch the candy aisle. You know you shouldnt buy any, its a waste of money, it's going to ruin your teeth, and it will make you feel guilty in the end.

But you still buy a pack of starburst and some of those sour candy straws.


Yep.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:06 PM
:roflmao: I actually thought you were serious until the third sentance.

I've had a rough day. Decided to lighten the mood.

It's not working.

Prickly Pete
01-23-06, 10:06 PM
Hell I don't know, its pretty clear I am nothing but a stupid fanboy.
I'll bet you even have some stats to prove it.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 10:07 PM
I'll bet you even have some stats to prove it.

When did they make FANBOY stats? I gotta get some of those ;)

Prickly Pete
01-23-06, 10:07 PM
You know when you go to 7-11 for the purpose of buying a drink, but your eyes catch the candy aisle. You know you shouldnt buy any, its a waste of money, it's going to ruin your teeth, and it will make you feel guilty in the end.

But you still buy a pack of starburst and some of those sour candy straws.


Yep.
I like anything with nougat.

Sam18
01-23-06, 10:09 PM
You know when you go to 7-11 for the purpose of buying a drink, but your eyes catch the candy aisle. You know you shouldnt buy any, its a waste of money, it's going to ruin your teeth, and it will make you feel guilty in the end.

But you still buy a pack of starburst and some of those sour candy straws.


Yep.

Wait, are you comparing candy to SBS? Candy's fun.

Cold Shad
01-23-06, 10:09 PM
Damon had a minor shoulder injury in the second half of 2005 which affected his numbers. He was having a career year in the first half if I recall correctly. The shoulder seems to be fine now though and while I dont expect pre all star 2005 Damon I expect somewhere between 2004 Damon and 2005 Damon.
Damon had three cortisone shots after the all star break. his balls to the wall defensive style has caused a lot of wear and tear over the years. He will never change the way he plays.Igive him credit for that. It does lead to a lot of collisions with the ground and with walls. Johnny usualy plays through everything. He is not a guy who insists on being 100 percent to play

JeffWeaverFan
01-23-06, 10:11 PM
It's possible that he'll be effective when he returns, but history suggests it's unlikely. That's all I was trying to say.

AJ Burnett had his TJ surgery in May 2003 and was back pitching for the Marlins 13 months later, which is pretty fast. But he wasn't good at all for the first two months (ERA over 5.00, IIRC) and although he started to pitch much better in July and August, they had to shut him down in September with elbow soreness because they had rushed him. It wasn't until 2005 -- about 22 months after the surgery -- that he was throwing like himself again.

I think it was a smart gamble to sign Dotel -- $2 million is nothing considering his upside. I wish the Red Sox had done it. But I'd definitely temper my enthusiasm about his prospects for 2006.
Yeah, that's fair. The difference between those two is that I believe Burnett's TJ surgery was pretty extensive while Dotel's was not that extensive.

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 10:11 PM
I like anything with nougat.

I got kicked in the nougats by my son today. Still feeling a little testy.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 10:12 PM
Yeah, that's fair. The difference between those two is that I believe Burnett's TJ surgery was pretty extensive while Dotel's was not that extensive.

Yea the docotor said it was actually a "John surgery" THey only did the second part of hte tommy john surgery.

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 10:12 PM
Yeah, that's fair. The difference between those two is that I believe Burnett's TJ surgery was pretty extensive while Dotel's was not that extensive.

True enough. There appear to be mitigating circumstances (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/09/SPGB2D5RLK1.DTL) to suggest that Dotel won't need the full 18-24 months.

38Special
01-23-06, 10:18 PM
I've said this 1,000 times yet they still continue to be defensive about it. There is no way in HELL that anyone is better then Dotel, don't you know that?

Actually the only thing thats become clear is that you have no idea what you're talking about most of the time. Normally a poster like you would just be ignored like others before, but you have to add an attached annoying/sarcastic comment that gets peoples' attention.

I'll make my final comment on the Riske/Dotel thing

Riske has pitched 5 years in the major leagues with 20 innings or more

2001: In 27 innings he had a 1.98 ERA but with a 1.39 WHIP and walk rate of almost 6 per 9 innings.

2002: 51 innings, same control problems, but with a 5.26 ERA and 1.64 WHIP

2003: His first good year, and easily a great year. HR rate is below what it is now, low walk rate, high strikeout rate, low ERA at 2.29

2004: 3.72 ERA leads one to believe that it is a good year, but it is shielded by high walk rate and 1.42 WHIP. A Timlin-esque ERA let's say ;)

2005: A second good year with a 3.10 ERA, but with a plumetted k-rate along with an uncharacteristically low walk rate. His BABIP is about 80 points below the average, putting his flukish ERA into the mid 4's with less luck.

Dotel on the other hand posted 5 straight years of WHIPs under 1.20 and K-rates averaging at 11 per 9 innings.

If you want to tell me that you would have prefered Riske in 2003 over Dotel in 2003, I cant argue with it as their performances were close. But Riske can't carry Dotel's jock, i'm sorry. I don't care what the VORP WRAR and WANFKLASNF say. Strike out rate, walk rate, hit rate, and home run rate. That's what i'm looking at.

If Dotel is not able to pitch well next year, and Riske improves his ratios to the one year when he was good, then the Red Sox definitely win out on that matchup. The comments I read in the news from Andrews (who did his surgery), said following the surgery that his operation was different than most operations (i forget the reason, looking it up now), and would allow him to come back much sooner. Whether or not thats true, or that he'll have the velocity remains to be seen. I hope he pitches his way into a new contract with another team if need be :)

or maybe i was beaten to it

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 10:21 PM
Ah, well...at least we can all agree that Alex Gonzalez sucks. Sucks. I wish anal warts on whoever had the brainchild of signing him, even if it IS only for a year (and especially if it's for more than that).

(Ya hear that, Dooley? That's a pre-emptive ballistic episode about a soon-to-be-made Red Sox signing!!)

38Special
01-23-06, 10:22 PM
Dooley and SBS should have children. I need some people for my ignore list

Javadawg44
01-23-06, 10:22 PM
True enough. There appear to be mitigating circumstances (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/09/SPGB2D5RLK1.DTL) to suggest that Dotel won't need the full 18-24 months.

Tendon transplant surgery is tendon transplant surgery, regardless of the hyperbole relayed by a pitcher coming off surgery during his FA year. He can wrap the tendon around 8 times if he wants, that shouldn't change the recovery period, although it should reduce the chances of him ever needing a second TJ.

We'll be lucky to have him back before the all-star break.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:23 PM
Ah, well...at least we can all agree that Alex Gonzalez sucks. Sucks. I wish anal warts on whoever had the brainchild of signing him, even if it IS only for a year (and especially if it's for more than that).

(Ya hear that, Dooley? That's a pre-emptive ballistic episode about a soon-to-be-made Red Sox signing!!)

To be honest, Gonzalez isn't that bad considering that there aren't really any other options available. He'll help the defense.

Let's face it, if the Sox offense needs Alex Gonzales to produce, then they've got bigger problems than Alex Gonzales not producing.

Evil Empire
01-23-06, 10:24 PM
Dooley and SBS should have children. I need some people for my ignore list

Ya can put me on there if you want. I think I need one more to be on 100 ignore lists.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 10:24 PM
Actually the only thing thats become clear is that you have no idea what you're talking about most of the time. Normally a poster like you would just be ignored like others before, but you have to add an attached annoying/sarcastic comment that gets peoples' attention.

I'll make my final comment on the Riske/Dotel thing

Riske has pitched 5 years in the major leagues with 20 innings or more

2001: In 27 innings he had a 1.98 ERA but with a 1.39 WHIP and walk rate of almost 6 per 9 innings.

2002: 51 innings, same control problems, but with a 5.26 ERA and 1.64 WHIP

2003: His first good year, and easily a great year. HR rate is below what it is now, low walk rate, high strikeout rate, low ERA at 2.29

2004: 3.72 ERA leads one to believe that it is a good year, but it is shielded by high walk rate and 1.42 WHIP. A Timlin-esque ERA let's say ;)

2005: A second good year with a 3.10 ERA, but with a plumetted k-rate along with an uncharacteristically low walk rate. His BABIP is about 80 points below the average, putting his flukish ERA into the mid 4's with less luck.

Dotel on the other hand posted 5 straight years of WHIPs under 1.20 and K-rates averaging at 11 per 9 innings.

If you want to tell me that you would have prefered Riske in 2003 over Dotel in 2003, I cant argue with it as their performances were close. But Riske can't carry Dotel's jock, i'm sorry.

If Dotel is not able to pitch well next year, and Riske improves his ratios to the one year when he was good, then the Red Sox definitely win out on that matchup.

I guess if you don't know what you are talking about it A: you don't hate every Deal with the Sox or B: have ever suggested a Sox player is better then a Yankee.

You make fair points but all you are using in WHIP and I got slautered by you earlier today for doing that. What about the fact Dotel has pitched a total of 65 innings the last two years and Riske has thrown more then 70 three years in a row? Or do innings not count anymore because they are against your arguement. You accuse me of all these things when they can all be said against you as well. Go back and see what I said. I said that he would be the third best reliever. Then I actually said in the next post that I didn't count for Dotel since we don't know when he is coming back. I EVEN said that there was an arguement to be made there. But hey I am just a fanboy. Its just plain ABSURD to think the Red Sox are any good.

Javadawg44
01-23-06, 10:24 PM
Ah, well...at least we can all agree that Alex Gonzalez sucks. Sucks. I wish anal warts on whoever had the brainchild of signing him, even if it IS only for a year (and especially if it's for more than that).

(Ya hear that, Dooley? That's a pre-emptive ballistic episode about a soon-to-be-made Red Sox signing!!)

He was hitting .280 before he hurt his elbow at the all-star break. If our #8 hitter hits .280 I'll be very satisfied.

38Special
01-23-06, 10:24 PM
Tendon transplant surgery is tendon transplant surgery, regardless of the hyperbole relayed by a pitcher coming off surgery during his FA year. He can wrap the tendon around 8 times if he wants, that shouldn't change the recovery period, although it should reduce the chances of him ever needing a second TJ.

We'll be lucky to have him back before the all-star break.

Dr. Javadawg44 i presume?



He was hitting .280 before he hurt his elbow at the all-star break. If our #8 hitter hits .280 I'll be very satisfied.

Tanyon Sturtze was jesus christ reincarnated around the All-Star break

JDPNYY
01-23-06, 10:25 PM
Dooley and SBS should have children. I need some people for my ignore list

heh..

Dooley Womack
01-23-06, 10:32 PM
Dooley and SBS should have children. I need some people for my ignore list

You need more than that. Like taking up other hobbies besides baseball, baseball stats and monitoring the little kiddies in the minors, seemingly ALL freakin day and night, 24/7---unless you're actually getting paid for this, or are a GM or something; then accept my sincerest apologies.

I mean it's nice to talk baseball, but gee whiz, man.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 10:36 PM
You need more than that. Like taking up other hobbies besides baseball, baseball stats and monitoring the little kiddies in the minors, seemingly ALL freakin day and night, 24/7---unless you're actually getting paid for this, or are a GM or something; then accept my sincerest apologies.

I mean it's nice to talk baseball, but gee whiz, man.

Edit: Why not

38Special
01-23-06, 10:38 PM
Wow! Dooley and myself agree on somthing.

Seriously 38 you need to get laid or somthing. Seems like you are backed up. Yep, you seem backed up.

Personal attacks are awesome

Dooley Womack
01-23-06, 10:40 PM
Wow! Dooley and myself agree on somthing.

Seriously 38 you need to get laid or somthing. Seems like you are backed up. Yep, you seem backed up.

SBS, don't mistake my posts for disliking you, because I actually do think you're a good guy. On the other hand, sometimes I make friendly, nice posts to people I can't stomach.

Dooley Womack
01-23-06, 10:40 PM
Personal attacks are awesome

No sh*t sherlock.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:41 PM
SBS, don't mistake my posts for disliking you, because I actually do think you're a good guy. On the other hand, sometimes I make friendly, nice posts to people I can't stomach.

**** off!

Evil Empire
01-23-06, 10:41 PM
Calm down chillin.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:43 PM
Calm down chillin.

I think SBS is not to far off the mark.

Every guy, grab a girl...

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:43 PM
Hi guys. What's up?

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:44 PM
Hi guys. What's up?

Coco Crisp... Future HOF-er or tasty breakfast cereal.

Discuss.

Dooley Womack
01-23-06, 10:45 PM
heh..

Quick. Get those PM's out. Wake up the neighbors. Invite all :)

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:45 PM
I wish another Fred Lynn could be in the cards for the Red Sox. Any chance there could be one out there somewhere? What would he be worth in todays market? Another Rice. Two guys like that coming up in the same year. It just doesn't happen anymore sadly. :(

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:47 PM
Coco Crisp... Future HOF-er or tasty breakfast cereal.

Discuss.

I joked around somewhere here that all we need now is to add a Fruity Pebbles to the bunch. I did it in color but am avoiding that at the moment.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:48 PM
Quick. Get those PM's out. Wake up the neighbors. Invite all :)

By the way Dools, when I told you to "**** off" earlier, I meant to add a sexist remark afterward just to make you feel uncomfortable.

Evil Empire
01-23-06, 10:48 PM
Fruity Pebbles > Coco Pebbles, for sure.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:48 PM
I wish another Fred Lynn could be in the cards for the Red Sox. Any chance there could be one out there somewhere? What would he be worth in todays market? Another Rice. Two guys like that coming up in the same year. It just doesn't happen anymore sadly. :(

Do you really want to put a guy named Rice in the same outfield as a guy named Crisp?

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:49 PM
Quick. Get those PM's out. Wake up the neighbors. Invite all :)

No one invited me? I just thought this was one of those Yankee/Red Sox bench brawl things about to happen!

Sam18
01-23-06, 10:50 PM
Kumbya my lord, kumbya...

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:50 PM
I even put on my face mask!

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:50 PM
Kumbya my lord, kumbya...

Do you even Google to check the spelling?

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:51 PM
I'm just making sure that Mickey Rivers isn't around.

Evil Empire
01-23-06, 10:51 PM
Dave has a Facebook?

Sam18
01-23-06, 10:52 PM
Do you even Google to check the spelling?

Nop.

...

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:52 PM
Just want to protect Bill Lee's back and his pitching arm for sure.

Evil Empire
01-23-06, 10:52 PM
Do you even Google to check the spelling?

PWNED!

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:53 PM
Don't want no 1976 to come down again. ;)

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:54 PM
Dave has a Facebook?

Watch your hands Josh! You may be needing them at the new job. :)

Sam18
01-23-06, 10:54 PM
PWNED!

Oh yeah take the sox fan's side.

Evil Empire
01-23-06, 10:54 PM
Watch your hands Josh! You may be needing them at the new job. :)

I always wash my hands.

SouthernBoSox
01-23-06, 10:54 PM
God I hope this thread goes into the hall for best threads ever. It has been a doozy.

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:55 PM
Do you really want to put a guy named Rice in the same outfield as a guy named Crisp?

I didn't think of that. :D

Evil Empire
01-23-06, 10:56 PM
Oh yeah take the sox fan's side.

Yeah, but he's the wookie of the year.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:57 PM
I didn't think of that. :D

Too bad the Sox got rid of Bellhorn, they could have nicknamed him "Special K".

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:57 PM
Is Nettles gonna try one of those sucker punches again?

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 10:57 PM
Archer? You got Lee covered?

Evil Empire
01-23-06, 10:58 PM
Lee? Stan Lee?

Maker of such great comics as the Hulk?

Archer1979
01-23-06, 10:59 PM
Archer? You got Lee covered?

What am I? A DEA agent?

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:00 PM
Don't let Lee get up and go after Nettles again. When Nettles sees that Lee can't move his left arm again, and Lee starts talking crap to him, he'll just laugh and lay Lee out again and all hell will let loose. No pussy foot fights like now-a-day.

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:01 PM
What am I? A DEA agent?

Just watch Lee because his career has just taken a turn!

Archer1979
01-23-06, 11:01 PM
Don't let Lee get up and go after Nettles again. When Nettles sees that Lee can't move his left arm again, and Lee starts talking crap to him, he'll just laugh and lay Lee out again and all hell will let loose. No pussy foot fights like now-a-day.

This is a flashback episode, right?

How soon before the psychodelics wind down?

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:03 PM
This is a flashback episode, right?

How soon before the psychodelics wind down?

With me! N E V E R!

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:05 PM
Is it over? What's up with that? :looking:

Archer1979
01-23-06, 11:05 PM
With me! N E V E R!


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Archer1979
01-23-06, 11:08 PM
Is it over? What's up with that? :looking:

When I was a kid, I simply didn't know what I was missing following the game. No VORP's, no ERA+, no EQRZR's. All I knew was Runs, Hits, and Errors on the scoreboard and AB R H RBI's on the box score.

Damn, I wish I could have enjoyed it more.

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:08 PM
Phew.... some of U guys gotta try a new deodorant! All this extra activity got to a bunch of you.



snif snif ... :o oops.

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:10 PM
When I was a kid, I simply didn't know what I was missing following the game. No VORP's, no ERA+, no EQRZR's. All I knew was Runs, Hits, and Errors on the scoreboard and AB R H RBI's on the box score.

Damn, I wish I could have enjoyed it more.


The good old days when the slugging percentage meant more. Extra base counts were good when you had at least one for every 10 abs. Doubles meant more!

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:12 PM
This gonna stir up something? How come Mickey didn't get more doubles? You ever notice how many were hit by Maris and Mantle in 61'?

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:13 PM
Now Williams. There was a hitter! Doubles ... not just home runs. :clap:

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:15 PM
DiMaggio was better than Mantle. Not "The Little Professor" you Red Sox Fans... :D

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:16 PM
Although Joe D would openly admit that his brother was a far better fielder than him.

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:16 PM
And Vince had a rifle.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 11:17 PM
My take on the trade:

Crisp is better than what they had which was Adam Stern. Plus for the Sox.

Riske is superfluous to the bullpen. The Sox already have Seanez and Tavarez, neither of whom they can trade. Timlin's not going anywhere. Dinardo's the token lefty. Foulke is the closer until he blows the his first six opportunities in April. Factor in seven starting pitchers (Schilling, Beckett, Wakefield, Wells, Arroyo, Clement, and Papelbon) and that leaves thirteen pitchers.

Going the other way:

Marte is the value portion of the deal for Cleveland. He's young. He's under control for awhile. And his projected ceiling is high. It hurts the Sox from 2007 on out. But value costs value.

Mota would have been the 13th guy on the pitching staff. Plus there's some money involved. It's not going to hurt the Sox unless Mota becomes a closer.

Shoppach... the world needs backup catchers too, son.

Archer1979
01-23-06, 11:18 PM
This gonna stir up something? How come Mickey didn't get more doubles? You ever notice how many were hit by Maris and Mantle in 61'?


Now Williams. There was a hitter! Doubles ... not just home runs. :clap:


DiMaggio was better than Mantle. Not "The Little Professor" you Red Sox Fans... :D


Although Joe D would openly admit that his brother was a far better fielder than him.


And Vince had a rifle.


Dave!!!

Focus!!!

38Special
01-23-06, 11:20 PM
Dave Visbeck is actually Yogi Berra

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:20 PM
Sorry. :looking: :-shrug-: :-sorry-: Old man walking ... errr ... talking.

:-offtopic Back to Crisp

Archer1979
01-23-06, 11:21 PM
Sorry. :looking: :-shrug-: :-sorry-: Old man walking ... errr ... talking.

:-offtopic Back to Crisp

It's cool. You were like an intermission cartoon.

Let's go down to the lobby...

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:22 PM
Dave Visbeck is actually Yogi Berra


I'm sorry 38Special. :( You ever notice you kinda resemble gehrig38? What's with the 38 stuff?

Dave Visbeck
01-23-06, 11:23 PM
It's cool. You were like an intermission cartoon.

Let's go down to the lobby...


I'm sorry Arch. I'll go take the medicine I forgot today. :o

Archer1979
01-23-06, 11:24 PM
I'm sorry Arch. I'll go take the medicine I forgot today. :o

Don't be bogarting the prescrips...

CTSoxFan
01-23-06, 11:37 PM
I'm sorry 38Special. :( You ever notice you kinda resemble gehrig38? What's with the 38 stuff?


Damn...that's some cold sh*t to be saying to a Yankee fan. Heh.

38Special
01-23-06, 11:39 PM
I'm sorry 38Special. :( You ever notice you kinda resemble gehrig38? What's with the 38 stuff?
Old name i used in Quake 2 back when i was 12 or 13. Before i knew that it was the name of a country group :(.

Dooley Womack
01-24-06, 12:04 AM
Let's get away from baseball talk for just a moment. Who's this Tabata chick that people are "hot" 4? She must be scorching.

Dave Visbeck
01-24-06, 12:07 AM
Old name i used in Quake 2 back when i was 12 or 13. Before i knew that it was the name of a country group :(.

Oh. And nothing wrong with country as you get on in years. Then the stuff can bring tears to your eyes at times. It grows on some people.

Dave Visbeck
01-24-06, 12:10 AM
Let's get away from baseball talk for just a moment. Who's this Tabata chick that people are "hot" 4? She must be scorching.


You just lost me. I need pictures. I like what I see when I look at Shania. :D

Dave Visbeck
01-24-06, 12:11 AM
Course... Shania is gettin' on up there. ;)

http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Opry/5620/whatsnewpage.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Opry/5620/UP.html)

Dave Visbeck
01-24-06, 12:15 AM
Back to Mr. Crisp

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-24-06, 01:01 AM
Nice move, fuc*...

ryanthe13th
01-24-06, 03:08 AM
I bet Epstein will get all the credit for this move.

Yankees1962
01-24-06, 04:07 AM
I bet Epstein will get all the credit for this move.
He shouldn't because the Indians GM was on XM Radio yesterday and indicated this trade has been in the works for weeks and that Jed Hoyer has been doing the talking for the Red Sox during these negotiations.

nhyankeefan
01-24-06, 06:03 AM
Has it been officially announced what the trade will be? Or are they going to wait until the Indians trade for Michaels and everyone passes their physicals?

ieddyi
01-24-06, 06:08 AM
Um ok...

Mike Lowell GG last year
Alex Gonzalez - known for his great glove horrible bat
Mark Loretta - one of the steadiest 2nd baseman out there
J.T. Snow - how many GG does this guy have? ALOT!


I didn't even say winning a GG means that much but i don't think it isn't realistic to think they could all win a GG.


UM OK

Loretta- how many GG's are given out to "steady" 2nd baseman??- HOw many has he won??

JT Snow- past his prime and is he going to be the starting 1B??

How many GG's are given to late inning defensive replacements????

I guarantee Youk ain't winning any GG at first or third


Pleeeeease

Yankees1962
01-24-06, 06:37 AM
Has it been officially announced what the trade will be? Or are they going to wait until the Indians trade for Michaels and everyone passes their physicals?
The Indians GM stated he's not trading any outfielders until he has acquired another outfielder to take his place. Also, I'm sure they're waiting on the physical results.

Yankees1962
01-24-06, 06:41 AM
Honestly I am not that baised. I just call people out when they are clearly wrong. The poster said that we "magically are better then last year" when its pretty obvious that while the '06 Red Sox are very different then the '05 they have improved alot. esp. on Defense and pitching.

Then of course I was accused of Cherry pickign stats when the only arguement I got in turn was "His BABIP was high and Dotels numbers as a set-up guy are sick" Simply amazing stuff.
Calling me out? At this time, my opinion is that it's not obvious that your ballclub has shown improvement over the 2005 club. This is just my opinion based on speculation, baseball articles including scouting reports I've read and some metrics. The real proof in the pudding will be the actual results starting in April. Right now, I do understand why any fan outside of being a Marlin or Royal fan would have good feelings about their team in 2006.

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 06:46 AM
UM OK

Loretta- how many GG's are given out to "steady" 2nd baseman??- HOw many has he won??

JT Snow- past his prime and is he going to be the starting 1B??

How many GG's are given to late inning defensive replacements????

I guarantee Youk ain't winning any GG at first or third


Pleeeeease

Agreed...as I said yesterday, if Snow plays regularly, he may or may not win a GG, but it would definitely be hugely detrimental to the team's offense.

Youkilis was a pretty decent third baseman in the limited time he was up, I thought...I'd stop short of nominating him for a GG anywhere, especially given the position change, but I don't think he's going to embarrass himself out there either.

ieddyi
01-24-06, 07:01 AM
Agreed...as I said yesterday, if Snow plays regularly, he may or may not win a GG, but it would definitely be hugely detrimental to the team's offense.

Youkilis was a pretty decent third baseman in the limited time he was up, I thought...I'd stop short of nominating him for a GG anywhere, especially given the position change, but I don't think he's going to embarrass himself out there either.

I don't either, but there's a wide gap between not embarrasing himself and the GG.
The post was directed to try and temper Southern's "enthusiasm"

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 07:16 AM
UM OK

Loretta- how many GG's are given out to "steady" 2nd baseman??- HOw many has he won??

JT Snow- past his prime and is he going to be the starting 1B??

How many GG's are given to late inning defensive replacements????

I guarantee Youk ain't winning any GG at first or third


Pleeeeease

Actually I agree with everything you say here. I think GG is an absolute joke and really think that they all could win a GG. Seriously look at Derek Jeter, or Jason Varitek, or my personal favorite Rafeal Palmiro. And sadly, I see Mr. Francona giving J.T. WAY to much PT. WAY to much. And sense he has won a GG surly it isn't crazy to call him GG calibur.;)

ieddyi
01-24-06, 07:29 AM
Actually I agree with everything you say here. I think GG is an absolute joke and really think that they all could win a GG. Seriously look at Derek Jeter, or Jason Varitek, or my personal favorite Rafeal Palmiro. And sadly, I see Mr. Francona giving J.T. WAY to much PT. WAY to much. And sense he has won a GG surly it isn't crazy to call him GG calibur.;)

I think GG is an absolute joke

Ok, then why trumpet it in a post saying that the whole IF will win one???

Let's let the subject pass- my last post on the tpoic

NDBoston
01-24-06, 07:54 AM
Here's the flowchart for the Sox.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/_images/articles/2006/01/24/flowchart.gif

Dooley Womack
01-24-06, 08:09 AM
Here's the flowchart for the Sox.



:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 08:43 AM
Nice work, ND. Hope this thing is copyrighted.

NYYBombshell
01-24-06, 09:53 AM
Here's the flowchart for the Sox.





Brilliant. Just brilliant.


:lol: :lol:

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 09:59 AM
Here's the flowchart for the Sox.


Amazing

noneckwilliams
01-24-06, 09:59 AM
Here's the flowchart for the Sox.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/_images/articles/2006/01/24/flowchart.gif

priceless

NDBoston
01-24-06, 09:59 AM
Not my work, but anything that rips on Lucky I love.

Dave Visbeck
01-24-06, 10:27 AM
Nice move, fuc*...

Hope you have a nice day. :D

Dave Visbeck
01-24-06, 10:29 AM
Here's the flowchart for the Sox.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/_images/articles/2006/01/24/flowchart.gif


:eek:! ... :D

Jersey Yankee
01-24-06, 11:28 AM
Not my work, but anything that rips on Lucky I love.
I sent this to a 4-generation Red Sox fan in NE and she was impressed (and laughing hardly, might I add). Great find + forwarded!!! :D

As to "Lucky", why do you call him that? On another board, someone called him "Leisure Suit Larry". :p

LOHR21
01-24-06, 12:01 PM
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


double :-rofl-: :-rofl-: :-rofl-: :-rofl-:

Dave Visbeck
01-24-06, 12:37 PM
Nice move, fuc*...

Sad Sam may own something he'll let you borrow. ;) Take a look in The Longest Thread. :eek:

NDBoston
01-24-06, 01:05 PM
I sent this to a 4-generation Red Sox fan in NE and she was impressed (and laughing hardly, might I add). Great find + forwarded!!! :D

As to "Lucky", why do you call him that? On another board, someone called him "Leisure Suit Larry". :p

As in Lucky Luciano, the gangster. In this case, "Lucky" is the gangster/bad guy within the Red Sox front office who I hate with the fire of a thousand suns.

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 01:07 PM
As in Lucky Luciano, the gangster. In this case, "Lucky" is the gangster/bad guy within the Red Sox front office who I hate with the fire of a thousand suns.

I'd hate him, too, if he weren't so damned good at what he does... ;)

ieddyi
01-24-06, 01:34 PM
As in Lucky Luciano, the gangster. In this case, "Lucky" is the gangster/bad guy within the Red Sox front office who I hate with the fire of a thousand suns.

Why the strong feelings?

NDBoston
01-24-06, 03:11 PM
Why the strong feelings?

I'm an irrational fanboy.

TheGameEpisode2
01-24-06, 04:10 PM
Uh oh. Deal might be off.

"WIP radio in Philadelphia is reporting that the Coco Crisp trade is being held up because Red Sox reliever Guillermo Mota failed his physical.
Concerns about Mota's elbow are apparently providing a stumbling block, but they may not kill the deal. There's been talk of Red Sox reliever Manny Delcarmen being involved, with him maybe replacing Mota in the deal. It's also possible that David Riske could be taken out of the trade. If the Indians can get Andy Marte here, they shouldn't let the relievers stand in the way. It's just too good of a trade for them. If it turns out that the Crisp deal doesn't go down, the Indians and Phillies won't be swapping Jason Michaels and Arthus Rhodes. Jan. 24 - 5:05 pm et"

--Rotoworld.

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 04:10 PM
Looks like Mota failed his Physical and the deal will have to be somwhat altered.

NYYBombshell
01-24-06, 04:13 PM
Uh oh. Deal might be off.

"WIP radio in Philadelphia is reporting that the Coco Crisp trade is being held up because Red Sox reliever Guillermo Mota failed his physical.
Concerns about Mota's elbow are apparently providing a stumbling block, but they may not kill the deal. There's been talk of Red Sox reliever Manny Delcarmen being involved, with him maybe replacing Mota in the deal. It's also possible that David Riske could be taken out of the trade. If the Indians can get Andy Marte here, they shouldn't let the relievers stand in the way. It's just too good of a trade for them. If it turns out that the Crisp deal doesn't go down, the Indians and Phillies won't be swapping Jason Michaels and Arthus Rhodes. Jan. 24 - 5:05 pm et"

--Rotoworld.



If Boston doesn't get Crisp, where does that put them?

jonnyc39
01-24-06, 04:14 PM
If Boston doesn't get Crisp, where does that put them?
I'm guessing they will either overpay (by a lot) for Jeremy Reed, or they'll try and deal for Michaels.

scull567
01-24-06, 04:14 PM
If Boston doesn't get Crisp, where does that put them?

Hopefully they'll take a look at Jason Michaels.

RootN4Rocket
01-24-06, 04:20 PM
As in Lucky Luciano, the gangster. In this case, "Lucky" is the gangster/bad guy within the Red Sox front office who I hate with the fire of a thousand suns.

Did you ever try the purple pill?

It helped me during the Duquette years. Lucky is nothing compared to the dark days.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-24-06, 04:34 PM
That was an unexpected turn of events. Im dissapointed the Red Sox likely wont get Riskey, but now it seems they are stuck with an injured pitcher and may not be able to get Crisp who was the best of their 3 options talent wise. Hopefully they go after Reed rather than Michaels.

ieddyi
01-24-06, 04:35 PM
Looks like Mota failed his Physical and the deal will have to be somwhat altered.

So, the sawx were worried about Becketts shoulder MRI and end up getting Mota in the trade who doesn't pass his physical in a subsequent trade. Remember how some sawx fans were just orgasming over how the sawx had bent the Marlins over and duped them to get Mota feigning concerns about Bekcetts shoulder.

I'm sure Theo will sort it all out post haste though.

noneckwilliams
01-24-06, 04:41 PM
That was an unexpected turn of events. Im dissapointed the Red Sox likely wont get Riskey, but now it seems they are stuck with an injured pitcher and may not be able to get Crisp who was the best of their 3 options talent wise. Hopefully they go after Reed rather than Michaels.


Funny that the Sox got Mota because of the concern about Beckett's health now it's his health that is in question.

I would think they can still get something done unless there is some cold feet involved. Crisp and Marte are the main players here. I imagine there will be some serious gnashing of teeth in RS Land if DelCarmen is somehow included.

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 04:43 PM
Funny that the Sox got Mota because of the concern about Beckett's health now it's his health that is in question.

I would think they can still get something done unless there is some cold feet involved. Crisp and Marte are the main players here. I imagine there will be some serious gnashing of teeth in RS Land if DelCarmen is somehow included.

Shapiro is doing to us what we did to The Marlins. His MRI probably wasn't even that bad, but it probably was troubling enough to try and squeeze the Red Sox, which is exactly whats happening.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-24-06, 04:51 PM
Shapiro is doing to us what we did to The Marlins, His MRI probably wasn't even that bad, but it probably was troublign enough to tryu and squeeze the Red Sox, which is exactly whats happening.

Or maybe Mota isnt healthy? I mean looking at his career numbers it would be out of the question considering he had a great year in 04 but sucked last year.

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 04:53 PM
Or maybe Mota isnt healthy? I mean looking at his career numbers it would be out of the question considering he had a great year in 04 but sucked last year.

Its a possibility. I'm sure he isn't totally healthy but Physicals are pretty subjective these days. Who knows!

noneckwilliams
01-24-06, 04:53 PM
Shapiro is doing to us what we did to The Marlins. His MRI probably wasn't even that bad, but it probably was troubling enough to try and squeeze the Red Sox, which is exactly whats happening.

I imagine Mota passed a RS physical when that deal went down? Maybe you're right. I did kinda seem like there was some doubt that Mota would pass the physical prior to it taking place. Maybe the Tribe are playing games.

38Special
01-24-06, 05:14 PM
Mota's health being a problem could explain his problems last year, and is probably a result of being ridden so hard in LA

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 05:18 PM
Mota's health being a problem could explain his problems last year, and is probably a result of being ridden so hard in LA

No Kiddin' freaking 105 innings in 03, and 97 innings in 04. I think ridden hard could be an understatment.

38Special
01-24-06, 05:22 PM
Boston needs to hire some new doctors, for serious.

Jersey Yankee
01-24-06, 05:31 PM
As in Lucky Luciano, the gangster. In this case, "Lucky" is the gangster/bad guy within the Red Sox front office who I hate with the fire of a thousand suns.
Interesting. I hadn't even followed mobsters, but somehow his name seemed to seem familiar.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters/lucky/main.htm

I'm guessing that "Leisure Suit Larry" come from some misdressed single male neighbor on "Three's Company" in the '70s named Larry.

Now then, please provide the 1,001 reasons why you hate Lucky Larry. :p

Jersey Yankee
01-24-06, 05:37 PM
Uh oh. Deal might be off.

"WIP radio in Philadelphia is reporting that the Coco Crisp trade is being held up because Red Sox reliever Guillermo Mota failed his physical.
Concerns about Mota's elbow are apparently providing a stumbling block, but they may not kill the deal. There's been talk of Red Sox reliever Manny Delcarmen being involved, with him maybe replacing Mota in the deal. It's also possible that David Riske could be taken out of the trade. If the Indians can get Andy Marte here, they shouldn't let the relievers stand in the way. It's just too good of a trade for them. If it turns out that the Crisp deal doesn't go down, the Indians and Phillies won't be swapping Jason Michaels and Arthus Rhodes. Jan. 24 - 5:05 pm et"

--Rotoworld.
You have a link to that? I don't see that on rotoworld.com.

Kangamangus
01-24-06, 05:43 PM
I think its finally time to put a kibosh on this deal before the Sox FO does something really stupid. The tribe should be adding extra players in this deal instead of the Sox giving up Marte and Mota for Crisp.

Dynasties R Forever
01-24-06, 06:08 PM
Here's the flowchart for the Sox.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/_images/articles/2006/01/24/flowchart.gif

Awesome! :clap: :clap: :clap:

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 06:13 PM
Funny that the Sox got Mota because of the concern about Beckett's health now it's his health that is in question.

I would think they can still get something done unless there is some cold feet involved. Crisp and Marte are the main players here. I imagine there will be some serious gnashing of teeth in RS Land if DelCarmen is somehow included.

Maybe the Phillies would be interested in Delcarmen for Michaels, straight up? I don't love losing Delcarmen, and I like Michaels a lot less than I like Crisp, but with the upside of keeping Marte in the system, maybe that would work out for the best. I dunno.

38Special
01-24-06, 06:25 PM
Maybe the Phillies would be interested in Delcarmen for Michaels, straight up?
That's quite the stretch dont you think?

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 06:29 PM
That's quite the stretch dont you think?

Yea its a stretch but Arthor Rhodes isn't exactly amazing though.

38Special
01-24-06, 06:42 PM
He put up numbers better than Riske, throws lefthanded, and has some kind of track record unlike Delcarmen who cant find the plate

TheGameEpisode2
01-24-06, 06:44 PM
You have a link to that? I don't see that on rotoworld.com.

http://fantasybaseball.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&id=6983

It's right there under "Latest News".

It's funny, I can't find it on their main page either, only when I go to the players bio. Weird.

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 06:48 PM
He put up numbers better than Riske, throws lefthanded, and has some kind of track record unlike Delcarmen who cant find the plate

But he is also much older and only under contract for this season, of course that could seem appealing to the Phillies. But DelCarmen is cost controlled for 6 years and has an upside of being a very good set-up guy. I don't think they would do it but I don't think it would take much more then that to get a deal done.

On a Side note: Why did Rhodes miss alot of last year? I know it was some personal issue but does anyone have any info on that?

38Special
01-24-06, 07:24 PM
But he is also much older and only under contract for this season, of course that could seem appealing to the Phillies. But DelCarmen is cost controlled for 6 years and has an upside of being a very good set-up guy. I don't think they would do it but I don't think it would take much more then that to get a deal done.

Abe Alvarez is cost controlled for 6 years too. Maybe they could package him with Justin Sherrod

scull567
01-24-06, 07:31 PM
Abe Alvarez is cost controlled for 6 years too. Maybe they could package him with Justin Sherrod

So if you were a GM, given the choice of Delcarmen or a year of Rhodes, you would choose a year of Rhodes?

Jersey Yankee
01-24-06, 07:32 PM
http://fantasybaseball.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&id=6983

It's right there under "Latest News".

It's funny, I can't find it on their main page either, only when I go to the players bio. Weird.
Thanks. Someone gave me a very similar link to this:

http://rotoworld.com/includes/topblurbs.asp?sport=MLB

Report: Flunked physical has Crisp deal on hold
Coco Crisp - OF - CLE - Jan. 24 - 5:05 pm et

WIP radio in Philadelphia is reporting that the Coco Crisp trade is being held up because Red Sox reliever Guillermo Mota failed his physical.

Concerns about Mota's elbow or shoulder are apparently providing a stumbling block, but they may not kill the deal. There's been talk of Red Sox reliever Manny Delcarmen being involved, with him maybe replacing Mota in the deal. It's also possible that David Riske could be taken out of the trade. If the Indians can get Andy Marte, they shouldn't let the relievers stand in the way. It's just too good of a trade for them. The Phillies would also come away disappointed if the Crisp deal doesn't go down, as they won't be getting Arthur Rhodes in return for Jason Michaels. Jan. 24 - 5:05 pm et

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 07:33 PM
Abe Alvarez is cost controlled for 6 years too. Maybe they could package him with Justin Sherrod

You sir, are amazing! :clap:

38Special
01-24-06, 07:46 PM
So if you were a GM, given the choice of Delcarmen or a year of Rhodes, you would choose a year of Rhodes?
Delcarmen has no control, and had tommy john already 2 years ago. Young injury-prone hard throwers with no command are a dime a dozen. Rhodes is a lefty and if hes in the NL he's definitely good for an ERA under 4. Philly has like no relievers with any kind of track record on their team right now.

I dont like Rhodes because hes always swallowed in the clutch versus the Yanks (well, i guess i like him then), but Delcarmen doesnt excite me like a Hansen or even a guy on the Yankees like JB Cox

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 07:50 PM
Delcarmen has no control, and had tommy john already 2 years ago. Young injury-prone hard throwers with no command are a dime a dozen. Rhodes is a lefty and if hes in the NL he's definitely good for an ERA under 4. Philly has like no relievers with any kind of track record on their team right now.

Tommy John surgrey is the only injury he has ever had.

Lets not point out that Rhodes would be going from an extreme pitching ballpark to an extreme hitting ballpark, not to mention the NL/AL affect on relievers is quite different then starters. THe fact that Rhodes is lefty doesn't have much merit. Lefties hit .286 against him. I would prefer Rhodes to DelCarmen right now but If I was given the option of Michaels for DelCarmen & decent prospect to Rhodes I would choose the former.

BJG
01-24-06, 07:58 PM
So if you were a GM, given the choice of Delcarmen or a year of Rhodes, you would choose a year of Rhodes?

If I'm the Phillies and I feel that I need to win now, I can see why Rhodes would be more attractive.

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 07:59 PM
Guys, I was just throwing Delcarmen's name out. There's not a shred of evidence that anyone that matters is actually considering this. Let's keep our powder dry, shall we, so that we can have a p*ssing contest over ACTUAL rumors, instead of just stuff that one of us pulls out of our ass. :)

BJG
01-24-06, 08:03 PM
Guys, I was just throwing Delcarmen's name out. There's not a shred of evidence that anyone that matters is actually considering this. Let's keep our powder dry, shall we, so that we can have a p*ssing contest over ACTUAL rumors, instead of just stuff that one of us pulls out of our ass. :)

Which is fine, but if the Sox had something that the Phillies wanted for Michaels, then that deal would likely have been done already. The reality seems to be that there isn't a fit unless the Sox cave and give more than they want (Philly doesn't need to cave as they can find relief pitchers on lots of teams).

jonnyc39
01-24-06, 08:06 PM
Which is fine, but if the Sox had something that the Phillies wanted for Michaels, then that deal would likely have been done already. The reality seems to be that there isn't a fit unless the Sox cave and give more than they want (Philly doesn't need to cave as they can find relief pitchers on lots of teams).
Wasn't Cleveland going to flip Mota to Philly for Michaels if the original deal went through? If that's the case, then the Sox certainly do have something that the Phillies want. The Sox are aiming higher than Michaels.

BJG
01-24-06, 08:10 PM
Wasn't Cleveland going to flip Mota to Philly for Michaels if the original deal went through? If that's the case, then the Sox certainly do have something that the Phillies want. The Sox are aiming higher than Michaels.

1. I believe the Phillies asked for Betancourt and settled on Rhodes who they liked more than Mota.

2. If the Phillies did actually want Mota, then they probably don't now.

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 08:21 PM
1. I believe the Phillies asked for Betancourt and settled on Rhodes who they liked more than Mota.

2. If the Phillies did actually want Mota, then they probably don't now.

The larger point here being, the Red Sox don't want Michaels. They want Crisp.

BJG
01-24-06, 08:26 PM
The larger point here being, the Red Sox don't want Michaels. They want Crisp.

Maybe. Or maybe they want Marte but feel they are in a corner and have to deal him. I don't think either scenario is a certainty. We do know that both the Yankees and the Red Sox have been talking to the Phillies about Michaels for quite awhile.

gdn
01-24-06, 08:28 PM
Ok. So what's the latest rumor? Please help me with this - I don't want to sift through 5 pages of arguing.

jonnyc39
01-24-06, 08:30 PM
Maybe. Or maybe they want Marte but feel they are in a corner and have to deal him. I don't think either scenario is a certainty. We do know that both the Yankees and the Red Sox have been talking to the Phillies about Michaels for quite awhile.
I do not understand this logic at all.

BJG
01-24-06, 08:35 PM
I do not understand this logic at all.

1. The Red Sox don't want to trade Marte
2. The Red Sox therefore try to find a CF without trading Marte.
3. They don't want to take back Woody Willaims to get Dave Roberts...they don't want to meet the Phillies' asking price for Michaels...they don't want to trade Arroyo for Reed.
4. They decide that Crisp is worth trading Marte for.

That seems just as likely a scenario as anything else. In fact, the Indians asked for Marte for Crisp a long time ago. If Crisp was the guy the Sox really wanted from the get go, what was the delay?

CTSoxFan
01-24-06, 08:43 PM
That seems just as likely a scenario as anything else. In fact, the Indians asked for Marte for Crisp a long time ago. If Crisp was the guy the Sox really wanted from the get go, what was the delay?

Oh, I dunno...perhaps the Indians wanted him, too, and since they already HAVE him, it wasn't as simple as the Red Sox FO simply picking up the phone and placing an order of Crisp?

Also, what evidence is there that the Red Sox have EVER asked about Jason Michaels, much less negotiated seriously for him?

jonnyc39
01-24-06, 08:44 PM
1. The Red Sox don't want to trade Marte
2. The Red Sox therefore try to find a CF without trading Marte.
3. They don't want to take back Woody Willaims to get Dave Roberts...they don't want to meet the Phillies' asking price for Michaels...they don't want to trade Arroyo for Reed.
4. They decide that Crisp is worth trading Marte for.

That seems just as likely a scenario as anything else. In fact, the Indians asked for Marte for Crisp a long time ago. If Crisp was the guy the Sox really wanted from the get go, what was the delay?
I'm not sure there really has been a "delay." In his Globe article, Chris Snow said that there has been over 70 phone calls between Bos and Cle over the past month - mostly due this deal becoming more complicated because Cleveland hoped to then spin players off to Philly as part of it.

It seems like the Phillies' asking price for Michaels isn't huge. With an abundance of releivers, and even starters, if the Sox thought Michaels was a better option than Crisp, I think he'd be a Sox by now.

BJG
01-24-06, 09:02 PM
I'm not sure there really has been a "delay." In his Globe article, Chris Snow said that there has been over 70 phone calls between Bos and Cle over the past month - mostly due this deal becoming more complicated because Cleveland hoped to then spin players off to Philly as part of it.

It seems like the Phillies' asking price for Michaels isn't huge. With an abundance of releivers, and even starters, if the Sox thought Michaels was a better option than Crisp, I think he'd be a Sox by now.

70 phone calls in which the Indians have not stepped off their basic demand at all. From day one, they wanted Marte from Boston and that's what they got. What do you think all those calls were therefore about? The Sox were trying to find a way to not include Marte.

Anyway, you don't have to think that Michaels is a better player if you think he can get him on the cheap and therefore keep your best prospect. The Red Sox may have an abundance of pitchers, but if they aren't willing to trade any of the ones that the Phillies want for Michaels, then there's no deal. Mota clearly isn't enough to get it done, so what comes after that? Arroyo? Clement? Paplebon? Now you are starting to get into a situation where the Sox probably think they are overpaying.

So, they go back to the Indians and accept their basic demands. In other words, they like the combination of Crisp and whatever pitcher Philly or Seattle wanted than the combination of Marte and Michaels/Reed.

BJG
01-24-06, 09:06 PM
Oh, I dunno...perhaps the Indians wanted him, too, and since they already HAVE him, it wasn't as simple as the Red Sox FO simply picking up the phone and placing an order of Crisp?

Also, what evidence is there that the Red Sox have EVER asked about Jason Michaels, much less negotiated seriously for him?

From day one, the story was that the Indians demanded Marte for Crisp. That isn't a scenario where they seemed unwilling to trade him. Rather, it seems a scenario where they were more than willing to trade him at their price. In the end, they got it.

As for Michael's negotiations, he was part of rumored Manny for Abreu deals. He has certainly been discussed by both teams.

YankeePride1967
01-24-06, 09:17 PM
If Crisp is as good as Sox fans say, what makes anyone think they can get Crisp without giving up quality like Marte?

Archer1979
01-24-06, 09:19 PM
Everyone realizes, of course, that if the deal falls through, Crisp is a mediocre talent who has already peaked. Marte goes back to being the best prospect in the minors.

Just wanted to put that up front so we can avoid any confusion later on.

jonnyc39
01-24-06, 09:20 PM
If Crisp is as good as Sox fans say, what makes anyone think they can get Crisp without giving up quality like Marte?
Who is saying that? The Indians don't NEED to do this deal - giving up one of the Sox top 3 is unavoidable.

AnibalTheCannibal
01-24-06, 09:20 PM
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/13703028.htm


CLEVELAND - Apparently, the Indians will have to start all over again if they want to consummate a deal for Boston Red Sox third-base prospect Andy Marte and Philadelphia Phillies outfielder Jason Michaels.

A source with close ties to the Phillies revealed that Red Sox reliever Guillermo Mota failed a physical in Cleveland on Tuesday, an exam that presumably was the last step in a three-team trade that would have sent Tribe left fielder Coco Crisp, reliever David Riske and backup catcher Josh Bard to Boston in exchange for Marte, Mota and novice catcher Kelly Shoppach.

In the Philadelphia portion of the transaction, Arthur Rhodes was to be shipped to the Phillies in exchange for Michaels, who would have taken the place of Crisp in the Indians' outfield.

According to a baseball operative in Philadelphia, the Indians called with the news that Mota had flunked his physical and said, "The deal is dead."

Apparently, he was referring to both parts of the swap.

Great news if the trade is off, IMO. Trading Marte was a foolish idea.

Mystic Merlyn
01-24-06, 09:22 PM
That sucks. I had a feeling Mota may throw a wrench into this deal. I am bummed that the Sox will not have Crisp manning CF in '06 and beyond, but keeping Marte isn't a bad thing either. I would still trade Marte for Crisp, but I am not going to pass judgement until I see the other options.

YankeePride1967
01-24-06, 09:23 PM
Who is saying that? The Indians don't NEED to do this deal - giving up one of the Sox top 3 is unavoidable.

I apologize if I am misreading the posts, but the gist I got was that it seems Boston is trying to see if they can get Crisp without giving up Marte.

hardrain
01-24-06, 09:25 PM
Everyone realizes, of course, that if the deal falls through, Crisp is a mediocre talent who has already peaked. Marte goes back to being the best prospect in the minors.

Just wanted to put that up front so we can avoid any confusion later on.

HAHA. Yes, Arch. That about sums it up.

Prickly Pete
01-24-06, 09:26 PM
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/13703028.htm



Great news if the trade is off, IMO. Trading Marte was a foolish idea. :clapping: :gulp:

Archer1979
01-24-06, 09:26 PM
HAHA. Yes, Arch. That about sums it up.

The last thing I want to be accused of is fanboyish-ambiguity. The correct term is selective-myopism.

Prickly Pete
01-24-06, 09:28 PM
Everyone realizes, of course, that if the deal falls through, Crisp is a mediocre talent who has already peaked. Marte goes back to being the best prospect in the minors.

Just wanted to put that up front so we can avoid any confusion later on.
I understand the joke but there were some of us who didn't like this deal in the first place and will be happy if it doesn't happen.

Mystic Merlyn
01-24-06, 09:29 PM
I understand the joke but there were some of us who didn't like this deal in the first place and will be happy if it doesn't happen.

And there are those of us who liked the deal in the first place, and are unhappy it didn't happen.

BJG
01-24-06, 09:29 PM
I apologize if I am misreading the posts, but the gist I got was that it seems Boston is trying to see if they can get Crisp without giving up Marte.

Given that Cleveland asked for Marte from day one and given that the Red Sox are now willing to give up Marte after "70 phone calls", it would seem that the Red Sox may well have tried to do so (while simultaneously working on other deals) but eventually had to acquiesce.

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 09:29 PM
Everyone realizes, of course, that if the deal falls through, Crisp is a mediocre talent who has already peaked. Marte goes back to being the best prospect in the minors.

Just wanted to put that up front so we can avoid any confusion later on.

Absolutly, Crisp is just to free of a swinger, Marte is God . . . blah blah blah. You get the picture.

Archer1979
01-24-06, 09:33 PM
I understand the joke but there were some of us who didn't like this deal in the first place and will be happy if it doesn't happen.

It's not directed at you, Pete. It's just a warning for when I turn around and change course. It will be sudden. It will be specific. And it will happen if this deal falls apart.

You're so ... Prickly.

jonnyc39
01-24-06, 09:38 PM
Given that Cleveland asked for Marte from day one and given that the Red Sox are now willing to give up Marte after "70 phone calls", it would seem that the Red Sox may well have tried to do so (while simultaneously working on other deals) but eventually had to acquiesce.
But this is all pure speculation on your part. You assume that it took 70+ phone calls for the Sox to include Marte, while much of that time may have been used to discuss other parts (including other teams) of the deal. If you have a link to refer to the point you are making, I'll look at it. But so far I haven't seen any evidence.

SouthernBoSox
01-24-06, 09:39 PM
It's not directed at you, Pete. It's just a warning for when I turn around and change course. It will be sudden. It will be specific. And it will happen if this deal falls apart.

You're so ... Prickly.

Man, I love fanboys.

DaSwing
01-24-06, 09:39 PM
Absolutly, Crisp is just to free of a swinger, Marte is God . . . blah blah blah. You get the picture.

Isn't it just possible it was simply a reasonable deal and that neither side was fleecing the other?

Isn't it possible that if the deal doesn't happen neither side is going to step off a ledge? Both sides retain value in the same way they had it before.

I haven't seen a lot of Sox fans saying Crisp is a GOD and Marte SUX or vice versa, only the Yankee fans in here wish it wasn't so. Seems like everyone recognizes the risks/rewards in this type of deal... we just don't agree whether or not it's a smart deal.

Archer1979
01-24-06, 09:39 PM
Serious Archer thinks this:

Crisp was a great solution to 2006. Followed up by the Alex Gonzalez signing, you had great defense up the middle, if Crisp started to figure out how to read a hitter better. You're losing some offense, but it's the difference between E-Rent and Gonzalez, as Crisp was a little less of a lateral move from Damon.

If the deal does fall through, the Sox have a third baseman of the future, to go along with their third baseman of 2006, and their 2005 third base backup playing first base. They also have Adam Stern in center.

Should this deal proceed, the Sox will be in decent shape for 2006. Should it not, they'll be in decent shape in 2007 provided they find a center-fielder in a year.

All this goes south if the attention of the FO gets diverted again by either Manny being Manny; Wells wanting to become a California-boy; or Theo deciding to be a Pearl Jam groupie again.

AnibalTheCannibal
01-24-06, 09:39 PM
But this is all pure speculation on your part. You assume that it took 70+ phone calls for the Sox to include Marte, while much of that time may have been used to discuss other parts (including other teams) of the deal. If you have a link to refer to the point you are making, I'll look at it. But so far I haven't seen any evidence.

Well if they spent the better part of 70 phone calls to haggling over what would eventually become Guillermo Mota, then I think someone's been stringing someone else along this entire time. ;)

Cold Shad
01-24-06, 09:39 PM
It's not directed at you, Pete. It's just a warning for when I turn around and change course. It will be sudden. It will be specific. And it will happen if this deal falls apart.

You're so ... Prickly.
What will be willbe. If you're not trying to screw the other team in a trade, you don't lose if it doesn't happen. You can't lose something you never had. You simply take Smoky Robinson's advise. SHOP AROUND.

jonnyc39
01-24-06, 09:42 PM
Well if they spent the better part of 70 phone calls to haggling over what would eventually become Guillermo Mota, then I think someone's been stringing someone else along this entire time. ;)
Okay, so the first 69 calls were:
"We want Marte"
"No."
"We want Marte"
"No."
"We want Marte"
"No."

And in the 70th call, the Sox agreed. My point is that it's been more complicated than that.

Archer1979
01-24-06, 09:42 PM
Isn't it just possible it was simply a reasonable deal and that neither side was fleecing the other?

Isn't it possible that if the deal doesn't happen neither side is going to step off a ledge? Both sides retain value in the same way they had it before.

I haven't seen a lot of Sox fans saying Crisp is a GOD and Marte SUX or vice versa, only the Yankee fans in here wish it wasn't so. Seems like everyone recognizes the risks/rewards in this type of deal... we just don't agree whether or not it's a smart deal.

It's an equitable deal in value.

There's just been a little too much guessing what the "average" Red Sox fan on the street with an internet logon living in his mother's basement conjecture lately.

Just wanted to head it off at the pass.

keg411
01-24-06, 09:56 PM
Isn't it just possible it was simply a reasonable deal and that neither side was fleecing the other?

I thought it was a completely reasonable deal, and don't care about Marte, so I'm glad it's off. Thank you, Mota! I much prefer the Sox once again centerfielder-less with a worthless relief pitcher than with an extremely solid young cheap centerfielder and still keeping their pitching prospects (plus ridding themselves of said worthless relief pitcher w/attitude problems).

The ONLY way I would've liked this trade (as a Yankee fan) is if the Sox had to give up Lester... otherwise, I really think Marte would've easily been worth Crisp. Marte has a ton of upside, sure, but Crisp is already solid in CF (and just about ready to enter his prime).

TheGameEpisode2
01-24-06, 09:56 PM
*cough*

The Akron Beacon Journal believes that the removal of Guillermo Mota and David Riske from the six-player swap won't lead to Coco Crisp trade and the deal could be off for now.
Rightly or wrongly, the Indians saw Riske to Mota as an upgrade. That was actually the one part of the transaction we liked for the Red Sox, but considering how the Indians have used Riske, it's not surprising they feel that way. If Andy Marte and Kelly Shoppach for Crisp and Josh Bard isn't enough for the Indians, there's no way Boston should give up more. Perhaps it's time for Boston to make a run at Austin Kearns.
--Rotoworld.
*cough*

Archer1979
01-24-06, 10:01 PM
*cough*
Perhaps it's time for Boston to make a run at Austin Kearns.

*cough*

If I'm the Sox FO, I'm on the phone with Philly, and San Diego and trying to work a three way that shake Jason Michaels loose for David Wells and whatever San Diego might be able to give up in the bullpen. It might cost another arm (DelCarmen?), but it should net Michaels.

Oh... and good luck with the cough.

Archer1979
01-24-06, 10:31 PM
The Reds apparently already backed out of a deal last week that would have netted them Clement with Kearns going to Cleveland and Crisp going to Boston (a further indication, btw, that the Red Sox tried until very recently to land Crisp without giving up Marte).

That may have been more a failure of the Reds FO than the principals of the deal though. The Reds GM just got shown the backdoor.