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RobRiv
01-18-06, 02:21 PM
The Hartford Courant has an update today from Pavano:

http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-pavano0113.artjan18,0,4265811.story?coll=hc-headlines-baseball

This is my favorite quote:

"I grew up in an Italian family," Pavano said. "So I can appreciate brutal honesty. I'm as hard on myself when things go badly. You don't accomplish anything by lying to yourself about what's going on. They're the greatest fans in the world. Win or lose, they're always there for us."

Here's hoping Carl is the comeback king of '06!

RhodeyYankee2638
01-18-06, 02:23 PM
He put up some pretty bad numbers in the NL. I wonder how they will be after a full season in the AL

gdn
01-18-06, 02:25 PM
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=3011392&postcount=641

Sixty one
01-18-06, 02:47 PM
Here's hoping that Carl stays healthy and bounces back with 20 wins for the Pinstripers. :D :D

RhodyYanksFan
01-18-06, 02:51 PM
Here's hoping that Carl stays healthy and bounces back with 20 wins for the Pinstripers. :D :D

I'll take 10 quality starts. Gotta crawl before you can walk.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-18-06, 02:53 PM
Heres hoping he gets traded or somehow puts up his 2004 numbers again

genius-24
01-18-06, 02:54 PM
Pavano can be a good pitcher/15game winner, if he stays healthy. That's the bottom line.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-18-06, 02:57 PM
Pavano can be a good pitcher/15game winner, if he stays healthy. That's the bottom line.

he has only been healthy and good in one fluke season

JeffWeaverFan
01-18-06, 03:09 PM
he has only been healthy and good in one fluke season
People seem to forget this... Not to mention, it was the NL and in a great pitchers park.

TEPLimey
01-18-06, 03:14 PM
You know, I would have a lot more empathy for Pavano if I had any clue what his injury actually was from day one. He goes does with a mystery ailness (out for 6 months with "rotator cuff tendonitis? come on...) when we are in desperate need of starter and the disappears for the season without so much as a by-your-leave. While I don't truly believe he was a "quitter" or "baby" (maybe he lacked a "bellyful of guts"?) his actions do make him appear that way to a less-forgiving fan. Even Kevin Brown pitched through extreme pain to try to give us innings.

In fairness, I understand that the organization has to (a) protect Carl's privacy and; (b) preserve his trade value. As a result, it may not be in their best interests to keep the public informed.

gdn
01-18-06, 03:16 PM
I'd rather Pavano have a "mystery ailment" and not pitch, than pitch with back spasms and give up 5 runs in the first two innings and take up a roster spot.

surge511
01-18-06, 03:22 PM
I'd rather Pavano have a "mystery ailment" and not pitch, than pitch with back spasms and give up 5 runs in the first two innings and take up a roster spot.

Exactly, and then get nothing out of our 40 million for the next 3 years.

Dr. Gonzo
01-18-06, 03:30 PM
I know people are have an ability to hate their own players. The worst evidence is Arod. But I think he will do well, I see no reason to to be pessimistic about our own players. He is not the bum everyone makes him out to be. Hopefully he also needed that year to get use to NY and now he can excel to his personal limits.

I just don;t get why everyone has given up on him already

YankClipper5
01-18-06, 03:38 PM
I know people are have an ability to hate their own players. The worst evidence is Arod. But I think he will do well, I see no reason to to be pessimistic about our own players. He is not the bum everyone makes him out to be. Hopefully he also needed that year to get use to NY and now he can excel to his personal limits.

I just don;t get why everyone has given up on him already

I think its because on his career as a whole he has been a mediocre to decent pitcher in the NL, perhaps after some adjustment he can improve to decent in the AL. The other concern for me is that he is a guy who gets balls put in play and until our defense proves their worth it will be tough for him to succeed here. I hope he does extremely well however and I only wish him traded if it nets a very good RF.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-18-06, 03:49 PM
I know people are have an ability to hate their own players. The worst evidence is Arod. But I think he will do well, I see no reason to to be pessimistic about our own players. He is not the bum everyone makes him out to be. Hopefully he also needed that year to get use to NY and now he can excel to his personal limits.

I just don;t get why everyone has given up on him already

This page will tell you why

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=134321&statType=2

keithf1
01-18-06, 04:11 PM
I am hoping for the best. He's still young enough to be great for us.

bagger015
01-18-06, 04:28 PM
Time will obviously tell but I like his optimism. Carl was brought here for a reason and the injury bug bit quite a few players last year. This team will be much better than last year if all the pieces fall into place................:)

Mattpat11
01-18-06, 04:36 PM
I'd rather Pavano have a "mystery ailment" and not pitch, than pitch with back spasms and give up 5 runs in the first two innings and take up a roster spot.Whose roster spot was Brown taking, exactly? I'd much rather a guy try to earn his money when the team needs a starter than sit at home with a fairly minor injury.

Arod for President
01-18-06, 04:38 PM
As much as Id like to believe Pavano will be healthy this year Im sure hes going to break down before Sept. You heard it here first, Pavano is a present day Weaver.

gdn
01-18-06, 04:41 PM
Whose roster spot was Brown taking, exactly? I'd much rather a guy try to earn his money when the team needs a starter than sit at home with a fairly minor injury.Really? Brown didn't cost us any games at all? Huh... my bad.

DandyAndy46
01-18-06, 04:58 PM
As much as Id like to believe Pavano will be healthy this year Im sure hes going to break down before Sept. You heard it here first, Pavano is a present day Weaver.


And what evidence do you cite in making this claim Karnak the Magnificent?

Mattpat11
01-18-06, 04:59 PM
Really? Brown didn't cost us any games at all? Huh... my bad. Of course he did. But when the team needed him most, he tried. More than I can say for some people.

Mattpat11
01-18-06, 05:00 PM
And what evidence do you cite in making this claim Karnak the Magnificent?I thought Weaver was the present day Weaver.

Honestly though, he's gotten hurt every year except one. Its like JD Drew. Smart money says he'll get hurt at some point.

ZIM 2002
01-18-06, 05:03 PM
Brown had less at stake - he was at the end of his career anyway.Pavano still has a long time to go, not the least of which is 3 more years on this contract.

Mr. Mxylsplk
01-18-06, 05:30 PM
And what evidence do you cite in making this claim Karnak the Magnificent?
Are you familiar with Pavano's career?

RhodeyYankee2638
01-18-06, 05:35 PM
And what evidence do you cite in making this claim Karnak the Magnificent?

If memory serves me correctly, he has 1 full season in the majors. On top of that, his ERA would be about 4.9 without that 1 good season

gdn
01-18-06, 05:36 PM
Of course he did. But when the team needed him most, he tried. More than I can say for some people.That's exactly my point. If he hadn't "tried", maybe someone else could have stepped in and we wouldn't have lost those games. No sense in false heroics. Vanity will never trump prudence.

JeffWeaverFan
01-18-06, 05:59 PM
That's exactly my point. If he hadn't "tried", maybe someone else could have stepped in and we wouldn't have lost those games. No sense in false heroics. Vanity will never trump prudence.
Who???? We had absolutely nobody else that could pitch. Do you think Brown really wanted to pitch? No! Cash said that he was hopeful Pavano would pitch that game but when he couldn't he asked Brown to pitch. This wasn't Brown trying to be heroic. This was Brown being asked by Cashman, after he had asked Pavano, to pitch because we literally had nobody else to pitch that game. (I'm talking about the Texas game here - which we did win). And, as much as Brown pissed me off the last couple years, I respect him for attempting to pitch and risk further injury on his already f*cked up back.

Mattpat11
01-18-06, 06:05 PM
That's exactly my point. If he hadn't "tried", maybe someone else could have stepped in.WHO? This was the Tim Redding period.

jimmyclark
01-18-06, 07:19 PM
The Great Mystery of 2006 will be Carl Pavano. I hope he is healthy and pitches well but I am not going to bet any money on it.

BronxBombers2005
01-18-06, 08:06 PM
Here's hoping that Carl stays healthy and bounces back with 20 wins for the Pinstripers. :D :D

we can only hope.....

ryanthe13th
01-18-06, 10:44 PM
I respect him for attempting to pitch and risk further injury on his already f*cked up back.

I feel this way too. Brown may have been an asshole, but he really did risk long term damage to his back that would effect him outside of baseball to pitch a few games for us. By no means am I defending any of Brown's poor performances, but I respect his effort.

Sam18
01-18-06, 11:14 PM
Whatever.

Evil Empire
01-18-06, 11:18 PM
I hope he's traded. Otherwise, goodluck to him.

guidry36
01-19-06, 02:52 AM
I am rooting for Pavano.....and am willing to give him and Wright another chance to prove themselves in 06'. I understand the temptation to trade Pavano.....if he flops this year, we'd have to eat most of his contract just to give him away..... much like the current situation with Wright.

JeffWeaverFan
01-19-06, 10:02 AM
I feel this way too. Brown may have been an asshole, but he really did risk long term damage to his back that would effect him outside of baseball to pitch a few games for us. By no means am I defending any of Brown's poor performances, but I respect his effort.
That's how I feel. The guy couldn't pitch anymore. His back was screwed up but he was asked to pitch and knowing we had nobody else he gave it his best. I remember this game very well as we won it 11-10. KB came out and he didn't pitch too well, but Bernie really hurt him in CF. Either way, he came out and pitched into the 5th inning, which was about as much as we could ask for at that point of the season.

TEPLimey
01-19-06, 11:20 AM
I'd rather Pavano have a "mystery ailment" and not pitch, than pitch with back spasms and give up 5 runs in the first two innings and take up a roster spot.

My point that was, in light of Brown's effort in the face of serious risks (both on and off the field), Pavano was nowhere to be found with basically no explaination. My orginial post simply pointed out that I would have more faith in Pavano if we knew what was going on with him last season. Instead, we got "out for two weeks" then "out for a month" then "will be back in August" then "out for the season." I wasn't suggesting that we risk our investment in him by starting him. I was simply saying that, with that litany of changing stories, little to no information about the injury (or his recovery from it), and his injury history, I'm not exactly inspired by his chances of pitching a full season.

Regarding Kevin Brown, I couldn't agree more with JeffWeaverFan, he came in and pitched when no one else could on July 18. If you recall, we simply didn't have anyone to pitch. He went out there and gave us 4.1 innings, which is what we needed most. He risked serious off-field injury doing so. Now, I'm no Kevin Brown fan (I hold him most culpable for the 2004 disaster in the post-season), but to say he was "taking up a roster spot" while getting a decimated pitching staff into the 5th inning is a lttle much.

Jasbro
01-19-06, 02:51 PM
My point that was, in light of Brown's effort in the face of serious risks (both on and off the field), Pavano was nowhere to be found with basically no explaination. My orginial post simply pointed out that I would have more faith in Pavano if we knew what was going on with him last season. Instead, we got "out for two weeks" then "out for a month" then "will be back in August" then "out for the season." I wasn't suggesting that we risk our investment in him by starting him. I was simply saying that, with that litany of changing stories, little to no information about the injury (or his recovery from it), and his injury history, I'm not exactly inspired by his chances of pitching a full season.

Regarding Kevin Brown, I couldn't agree more with JeffWeaverFan, he came in and pitched when no one else could on July 18. If you recall, we simply didn't have anyone to pitch. He went out there and gave us 4.1 innings, which is what we needed most. He risked serious off-field injury doing so. Now, I'm no Kevin Brown fan (I hold him most culpable for the 2004 disaster in the post-season), but to say he was "taking up a roster spot" while getting a decimated pitching staff into the 5th inning is a lttle much.

Comparing the Yankees' willingness to further injure Brown versus their reluctance to further injure Pavano is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Allowing Brown to try to pitch is a no-risk move outside the context of winning or losing that particular game. He was at the end of his contract, the end of his time with the Yankees, and the end of his career. If he were to suffer a catastrophic aggravation of his existing injuries, we lose nothing but that game.

Pavano is more than 10 years younger and still has 3 years and more than $30 million committed to him. Risking a catastrophic injury or aggravation of his existing injuries would be insanity.

Brown's willingness to pitch wasn't an example of him having a bigger heart than Pavano -- it was merely a case of the Yankees desperately squeezing the final drops out of a lemon and hoping it would somehow turn into lemonade.

Mattpat11
01-19-06, 03:09 PM
Pavano is more than 10 years younger and still has 3 years and more than $30 million committed to him. Risking a catastrophic injury or aggravation of his existing injuries would be insanity.

.Then why did they even ask him?

M&M61
01-20-06, 11:36 AM
If memory serves me correctly, he has 1 full season in the majors. On top of that, his ERA would be about 4.9 without that 1 good season
Does this mean the cup is half full or half empty?

38Special
01-20-06, 11:52 AM
Comparing the Yankees' willingness to further injure Brown versus their reluctance to further injure Pavano is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Allowing Brown to try to pitch is a no-risk move outside the context of winning or losing that particular game. He was at the end of his contract, the end of his time with the Yankees, and the end of his career. If he were to suffer a catastrophic aggravation of his existing injuries, we lose nothing but that game.

Pavano is more than 10 years younger and still has 3 years and more than $30 million committed to him. Risking a catastrophic injury or aggravation of his existing injuries would be insanity.

Brown's willingness to pitch wasn't an example of him having a bigger heart than Pavano -- it was merely a case of the Yankees desperately squeezing the final drops out of a lemon and hoping it would somehow turn into lemonade.

Thank you. That post had my eyes rolling deep into the back of my head

Bub
01-20-06, 12:07 PM
Pavano will not disappoint me in 2006. I have him penciled in for zero wins. I can only feel good about any contribution.

23and2
01-20-06, 12:26 PM
Pavano will not disappoint me in 2006. I have him penciled in for zero wins. I can only feel good about any contribution.

But how many losses?

longtimeyankeefan
01-20-06, 01:48 PM
But how many losses?

Perhaps the more important question is how many starts?

DandyAndy46
01-20-06, 01:57 PM
Comparing the Yankees' willingness to further injure Brown versus their reluctance to further injure Pavano is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Allowing Brown to try to pitch is a no-risk move outside the context of winning or losing that particular game. He was at the end of his contract, the end of his time with the Yankees, and the end of his career. If he were to suffer a catastrophic aggravation of his existing injuries, we lose nothing but that game.

Pavano is more than 10 years younger and still has 3 years and more than $30 million committed to him. Risking a catastrophic injury or aggravation of his existing injuries would be insanity.

Brown's willingness to pitch wasn't an example of him having a bigger heart than Pavano -- it was merely a case of the Yankees desperately squeezing the final drops out of a lemon and hoping it would somehow turn into lemonade.


Finally...evidence of sanity...
:clap::clap::clap:

Mattpat11
01-20-06, 02:21 PM
Finally...evidence of sanity...
:clap::clap::clap:Except that it completely disregards that the Yankees were in fact fools and insane or whatever because they did in fact ask him. Before Brown.

And I just want someone to explain to me, why despite the mountains of evidence that Pavano is a mediocre, injury prone pitcher, THIS is the year it all ends.

TEPLimey
01-20-06, 03:41 PM
Except that it completely disregards that the Yankees were in fact fools and insane or whatever because they did in fact ask him. Before Brown.

Lets not let logic and reason cloud the discussion, now...

gold23
01-25-06, 03:50 PM
Pavano has a significant amount of talent. Anyone in baseball can tell you that. His injuries have tempered a bit of that ability (he no longer throws 95-98 like he did when he was dealt for Pedro), but there does exist a nice amount of pitching talent.

He was hurt last year down the stretch of his starts, but before that last couple of weeks he was actually a pretty effective pitcher. Now.....the problem is that this is his whole career- when he is "fully healthy" he has actually pitched pretty well. The last few months of '03, and the season of '04. He's also had flashes during other years where he has been very good for somewhat extended periods.

So, if you told me that Carl Pavano was going to be 100% healthy next year, I'd be content with how he might fare. He's probably a solid B- pitcher- a competent #2 or a pretty good #3.

But this assumption would fly in the face of evidence that the likelihood of his being 100% healthy exists somewhere in the 15-20% range, as calculated by his actual injury history. Maybe a shade higher, but not by much.

I watched probably 20 of his starts in '04, and can frankly tell you that while the park likely helped his overall stats somewhat, his performances were such that he was going to pitch well anywhere. His stuff was very good, occasionally electric. He possesses a very effective darting fastball that he spots at the knees- and this was pretty much non-existent last year with the Yanks. He also can sit at 91-94, while he was more like 89-91 with the Yanks.

I guess my point is that I don't believe his heart or his talent is in question- I believe it's solely his ability to stay healthy. He's rarely been healthy, so the chances are pretty slim that he lives up to his contract- but I would be somewhat comfortable in Pavano doing so if you guaranteed his health.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-25-06, 04:39 PM
Which is why he needs to be traded while he still have some value. After he gets injured again he has none...

38Special
01-25-06, 05:19 PM
He doesnt have any value until he shows hes healthy.

PittsburghYankeeFan
01-25-06, 10:24 PM
What about the Pavano even/odd year issue? Doesn't he alternate between good and bad years? Aren't the Yankees due for a good year?

Plus, he's pitching in front his Italian mom who is a big Yankee fan (he admits this in the article). Bad pitching or wimping out = whap on the head from mom.

The upshot: who knows how good he will be? By the trade deadline July 31 we will have a great idea, as well as an idea of how the rest of the staff is doing. Anything mediocre = trade.

Somehow I have a gut feeling he is going to be a pleasant surprise.

38Special
01-25-06, 10:31 PM
I watched him during 04. His velocity was consistently above 91-92 and his delivery was faster. Last year his delivery was more deliberate and slow, and his velocity was barely hitting 90-91 and without much sink. Now, I read about how he tweaked his back during S/T and changed his delivery to alleve (sp?) the pain, so it does make sense. While it's expected that his ERA would be higher because of going to the AL. If he's healthy with his normal delivery, his stuff will translate no matter what the league. Wright has great stuff too, but beyond the injury-prone stuff, Pavano having great control makes me like his chances of doing well in 06

surge511
01-26-06, 12:35 PM
And I just want someone to explain to me, why despite the mountains of evidence that Pavano is a mediocre, injury prone pitcher, THIS is the year it all ends.

Pavano has had one healthy year, and pitched extremely well. People want to see what he can do when healthy with the Yankees, and see some results on the $10 million investment.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-26-06, 01:26 PM
He doesnt have any value until he shows hes healthy.

He certainly does have value, there have been teams asking about his availability, meaning we could actually use him to get something. Once he becomes injured no team will want him. The problem is the Yankees don't sell high, meaning if he starts doing well at the beginning of the year they aren't going to get rid of him but they really should considering he career averages and injury history...

38Special
01-26-06, 02:08 PM
Trading him now is the absolute definition of selling low. :o Yeah, a bus could hit him tomorrow and his value will plummet, but a guy with that contract, the injuries last year, and ineffectiveness, only has value as a throw away. In addition, what do you know was offered for him?

Jasbro
01-26-06, 02:21 PM
Except that it completely disregards that the Yankees were in fact fools and insane or whatever because they did in fact ask him. Before Brown.




Lets not let logic and reason cloud the discussion, now...

The fact that they asked Pavano if he was able to pitch does not change the logic behind not pressing him to do so after he confirmed he could not.

Again, Pavano and the Yankees had far more to lose by pushing the envelope than Brown and the Yankees did.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-26-06, 03:31 PM
Trading him now is the absolute definition of selling low. :o Yeah, a bus could hit him tomorrow and his value will plummet, but a guy with that contract, the injuries last year, and ineffectiveness, only has value as a throw away. In addition, what do you know was offered for him?

As I stated before the Yankees don't sell high. If Pavano does well they will keep him only leading them to their demise when he gets injured or just continues to be the average pitcher he has been his entire career. Yeah, you are selling low but there is still value left. Once, has yet another mysterious shoulder injury there will be no takers for him. No, not sure, but I do remember there being a good amount of teams interested...