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View Full Version : Sturtze's shoulder: "worn down and weak"



GimeMoMuny
01-15-06, 06:53 AM
Thanks to Joe Torre, Tanyon Sturtze's shoulder appears to be on thin ice. Link (http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/ny-spken154589305jan15,0,6447935.column?coll=ny-sports-columnists)
Tanyon Sturtze took his late 2005 right shoulder woes seriously enough to spend his offseason in Manhattan so he could make thrice-weekly visits to a Columbia-Presbyterian specialist. Tests showed the Yankees reliever's pitching shoulder to be "worn down and weak," Sturtze said Friday at Mohegan Sun.

He was scheduled to fly to Tampa today so he could attempt to throw off a mound this week at the club's minor-league complex.
And what's with this jab at Farnsworth by this guy? : http://www.newsday.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2004-02/11386280.jpg

The Yankees very much need a healthy Sturtze, given that Kyle Farnsworth is guaranteed to be a colossal flop and Octavio Dotel is no guarantee to get healthy.
Doesn't he know that Farnsworth has counted to infinity... twice!?

CalYankeeFan
01-15-06, 07:38 AM
Thanks to Joe Torre, Tanyon Sturtze's shoulder appears to be on thin ice. Link (http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/ny-spken154589305jan15,0,6447935.column?coll=ny-sports-columnists)
And what's with this jab at Farnsworth by this guy? : http://www.newsday.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2004-02/11386280.jpg

Doesn't he know that Farnsworth has counted to infinity... twice!?

Tanyon - that sucks, hope he gets better in time for the season to start....probably not going to be traded anytime soon now.

The jab at Farnsworth...he's a sportswriter looking for a reaction...:o

hardrain
01-15-06, 07:39 AM
This is bad news if Sturtze is still feeling poorly. If this is accurate, then he may not start the season. (There goes Torre again. The best manager in baseball until the game begins.)

The vicious Farnsworth smear is uncalled for as well....this puts me in a bad mood. I am going to get a cookie from the cookie jar even though I just woke up.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
01-15-06, 08:02 AM
Tanyon - that sucks, hope he gets better in time for the season to start....probably not going to be traded anytime soon now.

The jab at Farnsworth...he's a sportswriter looking for a reaction...:o


A couple of things, it points out further why the Yankees have kept on signing pitchers and not traded off any. These things are worrysome because with the Yankees, everything seems to not be a big deal and then guys are gone for the season. Think of Karsay a couple of years ago, and of course Pavano last year. Proctor might just make the cut now.

As for the Farnsworth jab, screw Davidoff, typical bitter Mets fan.

hardrain
01-15-06, 08:07 AM
A couple of things, it points out further why the Yankees have kept on signing pitchers and not traded off any.

That's for sure. Right now the bullpen that starts the season is likely to be:

Rivera
Farnsworth
Wright
Small
Villone
Myers
if they go with 7 in the bullpen:
Leiter or Proctor.

Yanks Lifer
01-15-06, 08:26 AM
A couple of things, it points out further why the Yankees have kept on signing pitchers and not traded off any. These things are worrysome because with the Yankees, everything seems to not be a big deal and then guys are gone for the season. Think of Karsay a couple of years ago, and of course Pavano last year. Proctor might just make the cut now.

As for the Farnsworth jab, screw Davidoff, typical bitter Mets fan.

All good points. Helps explain the Nelson signing.

flymick24
01-15-06, 08:55 AM
i think sturtze's role could easily be replaced by one of the young arms (bean, anderson, and maybe even proctor), but it annoys me to read that torre's overuse of him most likely led to this

hardrain
01-15-06, 09:03 AM
i think sturtze's role could easily be replaced by one of the young arms (bean, anderson, and maybe even proctor), but it annoys me to read that torre's overuse of him most likely led to this

I'd love to see Bean get a real chance. Anderson needs to find the plate before he can be trusted.

BJG
01-15-06, 09:07 AM
A couple of things, it points out further why the Yankees have kept on signing pitchers and not traded off any. These things are worrysome because with the Yankees, everything seems to not be a big deal and then guys are gone for the season. Think of Karsay a couple of years ago, and of course Pavano last year. Proctor might just make the cut now.

As for the Farnsworth jab, screw Davidoff, typical bitter Mets fan.

Yet it's Sturtze that people wanted to dump, though that seems impossible now. Depth is fine, but all those guys got signed because they are better than Sturtze, not because they provide depth if Sturtze isn't healthy. It makes you wonder why they even bothered to pick up his option.

Mark19
01-15-06, 09:16 AM
If we start the season with Sturtze injured, Dotel rehabbing and Farnsworth completely untested, we could have a bullpen headache in April.

I wouldn't be shocked to see one of Bean, Proctor or Anderson get a shot if Sturtze can't break camp with us in April.

Yankees1962
01-15-06, 09:22 AM
I think we need to be careful in regards to the content of that article. First off, it never says when those tests were done. Something tells me they were back in October which is why he's been rehabbing this winter in New York.

Another thing, too many of these New York writers have too much of an agenda on their hands to write an article without some kind of slant and without prejudice.

BJG
01-15-06, 09:24 AM
If we start the season with Sturtze injured, Dotel rehabbing and Farnsworth completely untested, we could have a bullpen headache in April.

I wouldn't be shocked to see one of Bean, Proctor or Anderson get a shot if Sturtze can't break camp with us in April.

If Sturtze is on the DL at the start of the season, that's still 11 pitchers. Given that he isn't very good, I'm not sure what protection he was providing against Farnsworth that everyone ahead of him in the pen isn't already providing nor why this means the Yankees have to carry 12 pitchers. I would have liked to get something for Sturtze in a trade, but if losing arguably the weakest pitcher in the pen is how they Yankees get to 11, I'm not going to worry too much about it. On a persoanl level, I wish Tanyon health and happiness, but on a cold, baseball level, it could be worse.

38Special
01-15-06, 09:26 AM
This is good news to some extent. Keeping Sturtze from getting innings is a good thing

sjb23
01-15-06, 09:26 AM
It sounds to me like Sturtze is speaking in the past tense: "tests showed his shoulder to be worn-down and weak".

I would think after a season of overuse, which most folks agree happened with Sturtze, that most pitchers' arms are "worn-down and weak" -- it doesn't necessarily mean it has a lasting or permanent affect.

I wonder if Sturtze also said something to the effect of "but now the shoulder's feeling strong again and I'll begin throwing off a mound next week in Tampa", and the writer chose to over-dramatize the situation by conveniently leaving out the "but now the shoulder's feeling strong again" part.

Think about it, why would he be going down to throw off a mound unless he felt good enough to do it and got a thumbs-up from the specialist ?

Yankees1962
01-15-06, 09:29 AM
It sounds to me like Sturtze is speaking in the past tense: "tests showed his shoulder to be worn-down and weak".

I would think after a season of overuse, which most folks agree happened with Sturtze, that most pitchers' arms are "worn-down and weak" -- it doesn't necessarily mean it has a lasting or permanent affect.

I wonder if Sturtze also said something to the effect of "but now the shoulder's feeling strong again and I'll begin throwing off a mound next week in Tampa", and the writer chose to over-dramatize the situation by conveniently leaving out the "but now the shoulder's feeling strong again" part.

Think about it, why would he be going down to throw off a mound unless he felt good enough to do it and got a thumbs-up from the specialist ?
I couldn't agree with you more.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
01-15-06, 09:39 AM
If we start the season with Sturtze injured, Dotel rehabbing and Farnsworth completely untested, we could have a bullpen headache in April.

I wouldn't be shocked to see one of Bean, Proctor or Anderson get a shot if Sturtze can't break camp with us in April.

Or Nelson, if he signs. Given the choice between Bean or Anderson, Torre would always go with the experience.

Sheff_Rod
01-15-06, 09:59 AM
He should've hired some movers, now look what he did to himself trying to carry all those heavy boxes.

Mark19
01-15-06, 10:01 AM
My question though is whether Sturtze will put up better numbers as a 5th and 6th inning longman going twice a week or as a 7th inning set-up gunner who can pitch four times a week for months on end.

Mark19
01-15-06, 10:02 AM
Or Nelson, if he signs. Given the choice between Bean or Anderson, Torre would always go with the experience.

That does bother me about Torre. I remain convinced that Bean and Jason Anderson have enough talent to be league-average relievers.

38Special
01-15-06, 10:04 AM
I worry about Jason Anderson's ability to throw strikes in the majors. He's gotten called up several times (with Cleveland too), and he just cant throw strikes

shanNYY
01-15-06, 10:09 AM
I think we need to be careful in regards to the content of that article. First off, it never says when those tests were done. Something tells me they were back in October which is why he's been rehabbing this winter in New York.

Another thing, too many of these New York writers have too much of an agenda on their hands to write an article without some kind of slant and without prejudice.

The MRI was done back in October, right after the season ended. I don't know if he's had tests since then, but that's what I figured he was referring to.

To me, it sounded like he was being cautious and taking care of the problems he had the last couple months of the season... if he plans on throwing off the mound next week, it can't be too bad. Then again, maybe I'm just seeing the glass half-full.

CalYankeeFan
01-15-06, 10:14 AM
..... Then again, maybe I'm just seeing the glass half-full.

That's against the rules...:-rtr-: :-rtfm-:


I'm hoping that this article was just filler on a slow news day, making something out of...not so much.

YankeePride1967
01-15-06, 10:17 AM
It sounds to me like Sturtze is speaking in the past tense: "tests showed his shoulder to be worn-down and weak".

I would think after a season of overuse, which most folks agree happened with Sturtze, that most pitchers' arms are "worn-down and weak" -- it doesn't necessarily mean it has a lasting or permanent affect.

I wonder if Sturtze also said something to the effect of "but now the shoulder's feeling strong again and I'll begin throwing off a mound next week in Tampa", and the writer chose to over-dramatize the situation by conveniently leaving out the "but now the shoulder's feeling strong again" part.

Think about it, why would he be going down to throw off a mound unless he felt good enough to do it and got a thumbs-up from the specialist ?

That's what I took out of the article as well.

NelsonMuntz
01-15-06, 10:21 AM
That does bother me about Torre. I remain convinced that Bean and Jason Anderson have enough talent to be league-average relievers.
Nelson > Bean.

Anderson > Bean.

Sturtze at 75% > Bean.

NelsonMuntz
01-15-06, 10:26 AM
It sounds to me like Sturtze is speaking in the past tense: "tests showed his shoulder to be worn-down and weak".

I would think after a season of overuse, which most folks agree happened with Sturtze, that most pitchers' arms are "worn-down and weak" -- it doesn't necessarily mean it has a lasting or permanent affect.

I wonder if Sturtze also said something to the effect of "but now the shoulder's feeling strong again and I'll begin throwing off a mound next week in Tampa", and the writer chose to over-dramatize the situation by conveniently leaving out the "but now the shoulder's feeling strong again" part.

Think about it, why would he be going down to throw off a mound unless he felt good enough to do it and got a thumbs-up from the specialist ?
Agreed. Let's hope he's back to 100% by opening day.

nyg02005
01-15-06, 10:29 AM
I hope the articles will not hurt his trade value if the teams pick him as the odd man out.

gszabo
01-15-06, 10:42 AM
Thanks to Joe Torre, Tanyon Sturtze's shoulder appears to be on thin ice.

Yes, there were no sore arms in baseball until Joe Torre came around.

Think about it - if Torre were so reckless as this implies, wouldn't he have run Mariano into the ground long before now?

he used Sturtze a lot. maybe too much - certainly an arguable point. but it seems illogical to assume that 2005 usage "caused" Sturtze's arm weakness. isn't it more likely that Sturtze's arm is due to long-term wear and tear? he's mid-30s, and threw a lot of innings as a starter (for example, i'd bet that when he was Tampa's ace, he was stretched quite often).

and the 2005 usage - was that Torre's fault? or was the usage due to a calculated gamble based largely on the facts that:

1. the starting rotation didn't have enough guys who would give 7-8 innings, requiring a lot of middle relief; and
2. the rest of the relievers were a group of which Proctor - Proctor - look was the best ("best" = "least terrifying")?

I think the Sturtze usage was a calculated risk - that Sturtze was the best option to win games that had to be won, given the way the early season unfolded.

JDPNYY
01-15-06, 10:46 AM
What has Tanyon Sturtze ever done for folks to like him so much?

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 10:49 AM
Thanks Joe...

shanNYY
01-15-06, 11:29 AM
That's against the rules...:-rtr-: :-rtfm-:


I'm hoping that this article was just filler on a slow news day, making something out of...not so much.

lol, sorry. I'm always a optimist... until the season starts anyway.

38Special
01-15-06, 11:44 AM
Thanks Joe...

Thanks pathetic grudge...

ring403
01-15-06, 11:47 AM
What has Tanyon Sturtze ever done for folks to like him so much?One decent stretch of pitching in an otherwise bad career. If he ended up being out for the season, it wouldn't be too difficult to find another below average pitcher to take his place.

KLJ
01-15-06, 12:56 PM
What has Tanyon Sturtze ever done for folks to like him so much?
i have no idea but i think the yankees might be better off without him anyway..

guidry36
01-15-06, 01:49 PM
It wouldn't be surprising to open the season with a starter (Chacon??) in the bullpen. A 5th starter won't be necessary the first 2 weeks of the season. I'd like to see Bean get a shot if we were a reliever short, but doubt he will get one. 11 pitchers should be plenty for the first 2 weeks..... perhaps 12 after that.

Stryder2929
01-15-06, 01:53 PM
he's probably going to be fine for the start of the season, he was worn down at the end of the season, not necessarily right now.. he wouldnt be going to tampa to throw now if he had this bad shoulder right now

-tz
01-15-06, 02:38 PM
He should've hired some movers, now look what he did to himself trying to carry all those heavy boxes.Nah, it was the extra duty washing windows ... :D

http://users.erols.com/kcoblenz/50705SturtzeDoesWindows2.JPG http://users.erols.com/kcoblenz/50705SturtzeDoesWindows1.JPG

silverdsl
01-15-06, 03:27 PM
Thanks Joe...I'm not always a fan of the way Torre uses the bullpen, including how often he uses some pitchers. However, Sturtze is 35 and pitchers are at increased risk to break down or become injured as they get older so it seems to me that this could have happend to him regardless of how Torre used him.

As for Sturtze, it doesn't seem like there's enough in the article to really tell how much this might or might not effect him. It sounds like he's been getting treatment so by the time Spring Training rolls around he might have rebuilt the strength in his shoulder.

-Deborah

HenryCottoIsGod
01-15-06, 04:31 PM
Yes, nice jab at Farnsworth. This is the same writer, who at this time last year, predicted Richard Hidalgo would be the 2005 AL MVP. Still cracks me up...

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 04:50 PM
I'm not always a fan of the way Torre uses the bullpen, including how often he uses some pitchers. However, Sturtze is 35 and pitchers are at increased risk to break down or become injured as they get older so it seems to me that this could have happend to him regardless of how Torre used him. .

-Deborah
The fact that he was 34 last year is further reason why Torre should have been careful with him. The fact that Gordon was 37 last year is why I, and many others, were infuriated with his Torre's overuse of him. It seemed like Torre finally got it at the end of the year when he let Proctor pitch the 9th in a 4 run game and Embree pitch the 9th in a 5 or 6 run game (the Proctor decision worked and we saved Mariano that game while the Embree decision did not work and we had to use Gordon anyways - but at least he tried to get them a rest).

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 04:52 PM
Thanks pathetic grudge...
It's not a grudge. I find it funny that people continually said that Torre knew what he was doing and both Gordon and Sturtze (and Quantrill the year before that) would be just fine with how Torre uses them while others on this board guarenteed that they would be burnt out by October at the latest. And then when the guarentee unfortunately comes true, the Torre supporters somehow believe that it wasn't Torre's fault at all.

Sam18
01-15-06, 04:57 PM
Its not Torre's fault. Sturtze was bad to begin with and Joe just added a little fuel to the fire by overusing him.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-15-06, 05:12 PM
Sturtze is awful, Torre or not. Look at his numbers with the yankees and his career numbers. he just isn't good

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 08:27 PM
Sturtze is awful, Torre or not. Look at his numbers with the yankees and his career numbers. he just isn't good
That may very well be true, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that Torre did overuse Sturtze, like he overused Gordon and Quantrill.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-15-06, 08:31 PM
I hope Farnsworth has a good season so I can shove it in this guys face

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-15-06, 08:34 PM
What has Tanyon Sturtze ever done for folks to like him so much?

good question, He had a few hot months and fell back to earth. Just like Small will I wonder if people will blame that on Torre too.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-15-06, 08:40 PM
That may very well be true, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that Torre did overuse Sturtze, like he overused Gordon and Quantrill.

I think the main difference between Quangor and Sturtze is that they both had success for the first 3/4 of the season before Torre blew them out. Sturtze has been consistently bad throughout

rajah
01-15-06, 08:58 PM
i think sturtze's role could easily be replaced by one of the young arms (bean, anderson, and maybe even proctor), but it annoys me to read that torre's overuse of him most likely led to this

There was nothing wrong with Torre's use of Sturtze. You only can read that stuff here from fans who know nothing. It is one of the urban legends that dominate this forum. Sturtze has always been a mediocre pitcher.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-15-06, 09:16 PM
There was nothing wrong with Torre's use of Sturtze. You only can read that stuff here from fans who know nothing. It is one of the urban legends that dominate this forum. Sturtze has always been a mediocre pitcher.

Actually, he was always one of the leagues worst starting pitchers, and is now posting some awful stats as a relief pitcher (5.10 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 88ERA+, 5.7 K/9 over the last 2 seasons)

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 09:35 PM
There was nothing wrong with Torre's use of Sturtze. You only can read that stuff here from fans who know nothing. It is one of the urban legends that dominate this forum. Sturtze has always been a mediocre pitcher.
Whether or not Sturtze would have been good had Torre not overused him is not the issue. The issue is that Sturtze had a tired arm at the end of the season which is the result of overuse and his shoulder is still "worn down and weak" which is the result of overuse. Torre does some things well, but he is not good when it comes to managing a bullpen.

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 09:37 PM
I think the main difference between Quangor and Sturtze is that they both had success for the first 3/4 of the season before Torre blew them out. Sturtze has been consistently bad throughout
Sturtze was actually quite good until he made that start. Still though, all 3 were overused by Torre.

JDPNYY
01-15-06, 09:39 PM
Whether or not Sturtze would have been good had Torre not overused him is not the issue. The issue is that Sturtze had a tired arm at the end of the season which is the result of overuse and his shoulder is still "worn down and weak" which is the result of overuse. Torre does some things well, but he is not good when it comes to managing a bullpen.

Are you among the ones who know nothing?

ericns1
01-15-06, 09:41 PM
Just remember most writers are jerks and another reason to ignore them once the season begins.

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 09:45 PM
Are you among the ones who know nothing?
Unfortunately yes, since rajah says so... It's too bad.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-15-06, 09:46 PM
Sturtze was actually quite good until he made that start. Still though, all 3 were overused by Torre.

He had 1 good month all of last year, technically, 13 good innings pitched. Its no a product of being overworked

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5341/season_by_all_pitching_splits.html

He pitched 78 innings last year, thats not overworked. 95.1 innings pitched by Quantrill in 2004, 170.1 IP for Gordon overe a 2 year span, thats overworked.

JDPNYY
01-15-06, 09:46 PM
Unfortunately yes, since rajah says so... It's too bad.

Sorry to hear that. I believe I am one as well.

goin for 27
01-15-06, 09:49 PM
Too bad for Sturtze if true, but he is not exactly anchoring the pen, they can get along without him.

Farnsworth dig - Dumb. Farnsworth could struggle, but he could also be extremely effective.

Dotel - He is right here. Anyone coming off major surgery is a risk not to make it back. Hopefully, Dotel continues to progress.

Lots of questions, but at least they have a surplus of arms. If need be, throw it against the wall, and see what sticks.

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 09:50 PM
He had 1 good month all of last year, technically, 13 good innings pitched. Its no a product of being overworked

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5341/season_by_all_pitching_splits.html

He pitched 78 innings last year, thats not overworked. 95.1 innings pitched by Quantrill in 2004, 170.1 IP for Gordon overe a 2 year span, thats overworked.
That's not true. In April he was pitching brilliantly until the Baltimore game, in which he gave up a bunch of runs. The reason for that is because he was pitching that game hurt and he went on the DL right after. He pitched incredibly well in May and was, at the least, very solid for us in June. After the July 4th start, he wasn't so good.

It must have been too much work for him because he suffered from arm problems and fatigue issues late in the season.

MiamiKat
01-15-06, 09:50 PM
He had 1 good month all of last year, technically, 13 good innings pitched. Its no a product of being overworked

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5341/season_by_all_pitching_splits.html

He pitched 78 innings last year, thats not overworked. 95.1 innings pitched by Quantrill in 2004, 170.1 IP for Gordon overe a 2 year span, thats overworked.
I believe Sturtze was on the DL for a short while last season and he also wasn't used too much toward the end of the season because he was tired & worn down.

He was right on track for a 90+ inning season beforehand, though.

(I'm also a know-nothing...and damn proud of it! :D )

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 09:53 PM
I believe Sturtze was on the DL for a short while last season and he also wasn't used too much toward the end of the season because he was tired & worn down.

He was right on track for a 90+ inning season beforehand, though.

(I'm also a know-nothing...and damn proud of it! :D )
Yep, that is completely correct. He was being used similarly to how Quantrill was until the end of the season except he had the DL stint.

As am I...

RhodeyYankee2638
01-15-06, 09:54 PM
That's not true. In April he was pitching brilliantly until the Baltimore game, in which he gave up a bunch of runs. The reason for that is because he was pitching that game hurt and he went on the DL right after. He pitched incredibly well in May and was, at the least, very solid for us in June. After the July 4th start, he wasn't so good.

It must have been too much work for him because he suffered from arm problems and fatigue issues late in the season.

Thats his role though, he is a long relief man and a spot starter, the role Ramiro had for a while. If he can't handle 80 innings a year what use is he. And last year, he was far and away better than his first year, when he pitched less innings and was worse

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 09:56 PM
Thats his role though, he is a long relief man and a spot starter, the role Ramiro had for a while. If he can't handle 80 innings a year what use is he. And last year, he was far and away better than his first year, when he pitched less innings and was worse
His role last season became the 7th inning guy because he was doing well at it.

Sam18
01-15-06, 10:00 PM
Sorry to hear that. I believe I am one as well.

I'm another one. I'm especially worse because I didn't know how to spell "definately". But don't worry, rajah will set us straight.

Jasbro
01-15-06, 10:03 PM
There is absolutely no argument that Sturtze, Gordon, and Quantrill were all overused.

But they were overused out of necessity, not out of mismanagement.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-15-06, 10:04 PM
His role last season became the 7th inning guy because he was doing well at it.

He had 1 good month. If 1 good month dictated a career, Shane Spencer would be a first ballot Hall of Famer

He is nearing a 6 ERA as a relief pitcher, with awful K/BB numbers and a .272 BAA. He was lights out in May, after he gave up 7 ER's in 10 IP in April. What says he is an average 7th inning man?

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 10:07 PM
He had 1 good month. If 1 good month dictated a career, Shane Spencer would be a first ballot Hall of Famer

He is nearing a 6 ERA as a relief pitcher, with awful K/BB numbers and a .272 BAA. He was lights out in May, after he gave up 7 ER's in 10 IP in April. What says he is an average 7th inning man?
He had 3 good months. April until he was injured, May, and June. As I've already pointed out, Sturtze was doing very well in May until the Oriole game that he was injured in. You can't exactly take that to mean he wasn't pitching well in that month. So, he was doing very well in that role and that was his role until he was used as a starter in the 4th of July game - a move that I completely disagreed with because you were messing with something that was going well. This was the first time in his career he was used in the 1 inning role.

Is he an average 7th inning guy? I don't know. What I do know is he was a very solid 7th inning guy until his start on July 4th.

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 10:08 PM
There is absolutely no argument that Sturtze, Gordon, and Quantrill were all overused.

But they were overused out of necessity, not out of mismanagement.
That's just not true. There were numerous games that they were used with 4+ run leads. There were numerous games when they were used with 6+ run leads. If you are going to have to use those guys a lot, then why the hell are you also using them in blowout games? The reason - mismanagement.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-15-06, 10:17 PM
He had 3 good months. April until he was injured, May, and June. As I've already pointed out, Sturtze was doing very well in May until the Oriole game that he was injured in. You can't exactly take that to mean he wasn't pitching well in that month. So, he was doing very well in that role and that was his role until he was used as a starter in the 4th of July game - a move that I completely disagreed with because you were messing with something that was going well. This was the first time in his career he was used in the 1 inning role.

Is he an average 7th inning guy? I don't know. What I do know is he was a very solid 7th inning guy until his start on July 4th.

So he was injured in April, May and July? Maybe thats saying he can't handle the 1 inning role, considering he has had seasons of 89, 195 and 224 IP before in different roles. He had 10 and 13 IP in April and May. While he was misused in certain games, that equals about 70-75 IP at that pace.

JeffWeaverFan
01-15-06, 10:37 PM
So he was injured in April, May and July? Maybe thats saying he can't handle the 1 inning role, considering he has had seasons of 89, 195 and 224 IP before in different roles. He had 10 and 13 IP in April and May. While he was misused in certain games, that equals about 70-75 IP at that pace.
No, he was injured in the Baltimore game and went on the DL. He was fine in April and pitched quite well until the injury. When he came off the DL, he was pitching healthy and well. He only had 10 and 13 IP's in April and May because he was on the DL for the end of April and the beginning of May. Had he not been on the DL, those IP totals would have been much higher and it would have been more in the 90 IP pace. For example, check out how many IP's he pitched when he was in the 1 inning role and not on the DL during any part of the month in June... 18 IP's which would be about 100 - 105 IP's total. And then shortly after he had the start.

Panamaniac42
01-16-06, 12:17 AM
I know Farnsworth is no Brian Schmoll, but come on Davidoff, cut the guy a break.

DontHateOnNumber2
01-16-06, 01:50 AM
Tanyon - that sucks, hope he gets better in time for the season to start....probably not going to be traded anytime soon now.

The jab at Farnsworth...he's a sportswriter looking for a reaction...:o

No one knows how Farnsworth will turn out, but I hope it'll be for the better as for Tanyon, I just hope he will be able to defy the odds and recover fully. Hell, maybe the offense will start out hot and he won't need to be used for awhile anyhow.

hardrain
01-16-06, 06:42 AM
I'm another one. I'm especially worse because I didn't know how to spell "definately". But don't worry, rajah will set us straight.

Me too. Can I join the "Know-Nothing" club?

yankeebot
01-16-06, 06:56 AM
Me too. Can I join the "Know-Nothing" club?I know something. Perhaps I could still be an honorary member?

hardrain
01-16-06, 08:11 AM
I know something. Perhaps I could still be an honorary member?

The newly formed steering committee for the NYYFANS "Know-Nothing" Board of Directors will take your candidacy under consideration. JDPNNY, as Chariman of the Board, reserves the right of final say.

GiambiRocks
01-16-06, 08:44 AM
What has Tanyon Sturtze ever done for folks to like him so much?
I have two Sturtze jerseys. ;)

rajah
01-16-06, 09:37 AM
Unfortunately yes, since rajah says so... It's too bad.

So what do you know? What exactly is your expertise? Medical? Sports therapy? Or are you even relying on someone else with expertise or knowledge about the particular condition of the arms of Sturtze, Gordon and Quantrill?

Or is it just that you assume that any time a relief pitcher gets sore or is less effective at the end of the year it is from over use?

If you know something, tell us. Otherwise I think you fit the definition of a know nothing, don't you?

GimeMoMuny
01-16-06, 09:51 AM
I don't know if JWF will know how to answer that.

JeffWeaverFan
01-16-06, 11:31 AM
So what do you know? What exactly is your expertise? Medical? Sports therapy? Or are you even relying on someone else with expertise or knowledge about the particular condition of the arms of Sturtze, Gordon and Quantrill?

Or is it just that you assume that any time a relief pitcher gets sore or is less effective at the end of the year it is from over use?

If you know something, tell us. Otherwise I think you fit the definition of a know nothing, don't you?
Sturtze, Gordon, and Quantrill all had tired/worn down/weak/dead arms during the end of the year. That is the result of being overused. Do you disagree? I mean, I'm not sure because you were not arguing that point. Jasbro is another person that agrees that they were overused, but disagrees as to whose fault it was.

No, when a pitcher has a "dead arm" as these guys did, it tends to be from overuse.

I didn't think I was saying anything new here in terms of if they were overused or not. Most everyone agrees that they were overused, they just disagree as to whose fault it was, or if Sturtze would have continued to be effective had he been used less. Personally, I think it's Torre's fault that they were overused (and I stated my reasons why when I responded to Jasbro's post) and that Sturtze would have been better than he was at the end of the year had Torre not overused him (and I stated why I believe he was being overused by Torre and how you can see him getting worse as the overuse happened when responding to Rhodey's post). I don't know how much better Sturtze would have been, but I definitely think he would have been better. I have no problem being a "know nothing" in your mind.

rajah
01-16-06, 11:46 AM
Sturtze, Gordon, and Quantrill all had tired/worn down/weak/dead arms during the end of the year. That is the result of being overused. Do you disagree? I mean, I'm not sure because you were not arguing that point. Jasbro is another person that agrees that they were overused, but disagrees as to whose fault it was.

No, when a pitcher has a "dead arm" as these guys did, it tends to be from overuse.

I didn't think I was saying anything new here in terms of if they were overused or not. Most everyone agrees that they were overused, they just disagree as to whose fault it was, or if Sturtze would have continued to be effective had he been used less. Personally, I think it's Torre's fault that they were overused (and I stated my reasons why when I responded to Jasbro's post) and that Sturtze would have been better than he was at the end of the year had Torre not overused him (and I stated why I believe he was being overused by Torre and how you can see him getting worse as the overuse happened when responding to Rhodey's post). I don't know how much better Sturtze would have been, but I definitely think he would have been better. I have no problem being a "know nothing" in your mind.

I admit to being a "know nothing" myself when it comes to the reasons that pitchers sometimes lose their velocity or suffer from arm injuries. I am at least as ignorant as you on this topic. My criticism of you and others on this point is not that you are ignorant, but that you are willing to jump to conclusions despite your ignorance.

I know that most here assume that when a relief pitcher pitches a lot and then loses effectiveness at some point, the latter is the result of the former. But there may be little basis for that assumption in a particular case without further information. Relief pitchers also lose effectiveness when they are used infrequently or moderately. I don't beleive that anyone who has posted in this thread, including the two of us, really know what caused Sturtze's shoulder weakness. But if you have more information, I would be interested.

JeffWeaverFan
01-16-06, 12:01 PM
Well, the fact is that he did have a "dead arm" as did Tom Gordon. Also, both were used a ton last season (Gordon for the last two seasons). A ton of use that results into periods of having a "dead arm" seems to me pretty obvious the result of overuse.

I don't think that is saying anything that is too mind boggling. I think most everyone agrees.

Now, the better argument, IMO, is why were they overused. Was it Torre's fault or was it because Torre had to use them so much because the other relievers we had were no good? I think the former is true and have argued that. The other argument is the one that you were having in that Sturtze is no good and he petered out at the end there because he was following his career norm rather than overuse.

But I don't think that it is much of a debate as to whether they were used too much. Quantrill was used a career high (as a reliever) 90.1 IP's and hasn't been the same sense. Gordon was used a ton two seasons ago and started off last season terribly because he wasn't throwing the curveball before pitching well, but again he was used a lot and experienced arm trouble. Sturtze was used a ton last season and then got worse and expererienced arm trouble. Even Rivera did not throw in the offseason for the first time in his career before last season and admitted that his arm was hurting him all of last season.

Dr. Gonzo
01-16-06, 12:09 PM
I am waiting for the day a pitcher sues his coach for over using him and hurting his arm, shortening a profitable baseball career.

rajah
01-16-06, 12:25 PM
The common fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Did Quantrill think his decline derived from over use rather than age? Did Gordon? Did Sturtze? Did some doctor or therapist?

No; it is not "mind boggling" around here to assume that heavy use yields performance decline from tired arm. It is the common assumption. But it is an assumption not based on knowledge of the particular case. It may be true in one case and not in another. True, for instance, for Gordon, but not for the other two. The fact is we do not know.

clarko
01-16-06, 01:32 PM
I wonder what sort of scuttlebut Gator has picked up from the Yank pitchers. Was mel more of a hard_ass than Gator will be? Gator was a lithe fellow, perhaps he will be more poetic and sensitive to the Bards of the Pen. Wasn't Torre catchijng during a period of the 4 man rotation, the Goose-like 3 inning save? Maybe Guidry has picked up on some moans and grumblings from previous players (at spring training, etc.) that could lead him to urge less use of certain pitchers. Who knows?
More likely, its a matter of starters staying healthy, hitters scoring even more runs, allowing less stress on the relievers.
What a sizzling season last year coming back to win the division on the second to last day. Every game was important for weeks. This year will be a tough slog, too, with Boston and Toronto and Mets (6 games) having added significantly to their rotations and relief. It appears Baltimore and TB have weakened their staffs.
I am curious whether Torre will use his relief corps differently with the Gator at his side.
k

surge511
01-16-06, 01:42 PM
Really all we need out of Sturtze are 2 good months. He needs to be the 7th inning guy until Dotel comes back. After that, Sturtze can sit in the bullpen and pitch like twice a week. He just needs to hold down the fort until <hopefully> Dotel can come back and be effective as usual.

Who knows? Maybe Villone can find his form again like he did the first half of last year? It doesn't necessarily have to be Sturtze, but someone besides Farnsworth is going to have to perform in the early months, or else it's going to be a rough start to the season.

MaDR
01-16-06, 01:42 PM
It's better to be a "know nothing". I think you'll enjoy the game more.

Jasbro
01-16-06, 03:33 PM
Sturtze, Gordon, and Quantrill all had tired/worn down/weak/dead arms during the end of the year. That is the result of being overused. Do you disagree? I mean, I'm not sure because you were not arguing that point. Jasbro is another person that agrees that they were overused, but disagrees as to whose fault it was.

No, when a pitcher has a "dead arm" as these guys did, it tends to be from overuse.

I didn't think I was saying anything new here in terms of if they were overused or not. Most everyone agrees that they were overused, they just disagree as to whose fault it was, or if Sturtze would have continued to be effective had he been used less. Personally, I think it's Torre's fault that they were overused (and I stated my reasons why when I responded to Jasbro's post) and that Sturtze would have been better than he was at the end of the year had Torre not overused him (and I stated why I believe he was being overused by Torre and how you can see him getting worse as the overuse happened when responding to Rhodey's post). I don't know how much better Sturtze would have been, but I definitely think he would have been better. I have no problem being a "know nothing" in your mind.

By definition, anytime you have to go to your bullpen before the 7th inning, your bullpen is being "overused", because the ideal is for your starter to give you at least 6 innings. When they don't, and your middle relief sucks, the few guys who are even reasonably reliable are going to get the bulk of the innings.

And when your early/middle relief has the nasty habit of giving up 4, 5, and 6-run leads, a manager really has no choice but to ride the few horses who can usually be relied upon to keep the game managable. Hence, they get 'overused'.

You use the term "overuse" as a synonym for "abuse" -- which it is not.

If you own two cars and one of them breaks down every two weeks, you might have to drive the other one more than you would have liked. But that doesn't mean you mismanaged your cars, it just means that when you had an appointment you absolutely had to keep, you drove the car you knew would give you the best chance to reach your destination. And if the crappy car breaks down even when you have a lot of time to get to where you are going, the natural tendency is to drive the car you know would probably not give you so much trouble.

The average usage for a leased vehicle is 12-15,000 miles a year. If you exceed that mileage, there is price to pay for it -- but if you drive that car 10% or 20% more than projected because your other car sucked, it does not mean that you abused your good car, it just means you put more mileage on it than the ideal. And if the reason you exceeded your mileage agreement was because your other car(s) were unreliable, then it is not your fault for driving the car you knew would get you there.

ryanthe13th
01-16-06, 06:42 PM
I don't know why people are mentioning Gordon when they speak of decline. Gordon did just fine in New York and only crapped the bed when it came to the post-season. Granted, that is a very big crap to take, but it doesn't mean he didn't have a positive tenure as a Yankee.

WebsterMulligan
01-16-06, 07:11 PM
That's just not true. There were numerous games that they were used with 4+ run leads. There were numerous games when they were used with 6+ run leads. If you are going to have to use those guys a lot, then why the hell are you also using them in blowout games? The reason - mismanagement.

:snooze: :snooze: :snooze:

WebsterMulligan
01-16-06, 07:13 PM
By definition, anytime you have to go to your bullpen before the 7th inning, your bullpen is being "overused", because the ideal is for your starter to give you at least 6 innings. When they don't, and your middle relief sucks, the few guys who are even reasonably reliable are going to get the bulk of the innings.

And when your early/middle relief has the nasty habit of giving up 4, 5, and 6-run leads, a manager really has no choice but to ride the few horses who can usually be relied upon to keep the game managable. Hence, they get 'overused'.

You use the term "overuse" as a synonym for "abuse" -- which it is not.

If you own two cars and one of them breaks down every two weeks, you might have to drive the other one more than you would have liked. But that doesn't mean you mismanaged your cars, it just means that when you had an appointment you absolutely had to keep, you drove the car you knew would give you the best chance to reach your destination. And if the crappy car breaks down even when you have a lot of time to get to where you are going, the natural tendency is to drive the car you know would probably not give you so much trouble.

The average usage for a leased vehicle is 12-15,000 miles a year. If you exceed that mileage, there is price to pay for it -- but if you drive that car 10% or 20% more than projected because your other car sucked, it does not mean that you abused your good car, it just means you put more mileage on it than the ideal. And if the reason you exceeded your mileage agreement was because your other car(s) were unreliable, then it is not your fault for driving the car you knew would get you there.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

JDPNYY
01-16-06, 07:15 PM
short nap

YankeePride1967
01-16-06, 07:45 PM
enough of these whiney players. Sturtze should have been prepared to pitch 3 times a day and 300 innings a year. No excuses.

genius-24
01-16-06, 07:48 PM
enough of these whiney players. Sturtze should have been prepared to pitch 3 times a day and 300 innings a year. No excuses.

I havent seen any one pitch more then once in baseball in one day :-rtr-:.

BJG
01-16-06, 08:06 PM
I havent seen any one pitch more then once in baseball in one day :-rtr-:.

The list of pitchers who have appeared in both games of a doubleheader is too long, but here are the pitchers who have 2 complete game victories on the same day:

http://baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats24.shtml

JeffWeaverFan
01-16-06, 08:50 PM
By definition, anytime you have to go to your bullpen before the 7th inning, your bullpen is being "overused", because the ideal is for your starter to give you at least 6 innings. When they don't, and your middle relief sucks, the few guys who are even reasonably reliable are going to get the bulk of the innings.
Well, if you have 6 or 7 guys in the bullpen, it is not too difficult that you won't have to overuse them. But I do agree that in close games, when your starter is only going 6 innings, then you are going to use that 7th and 8th inning guy quite a bit more - which is why it is quite important to not use them in blowout games.


And when your early/middle relief has the nasty habit of giving up 4, 5, and 6-run leads, a manager really has no choice but to ride the few horses who can usually be relied upon to keep the game managable. Hence, they get 'overused'.
When the middle relief gives up (for example) 4 runs in a 7 run lead, then yes, you have to go with the better relievers. Nobody EVER had a problem with that. The problem was when, in the 8th inning, we went with Gordon with a 5 or 6 run lead instead of a guy like, say, Scott Proctor. Now is Proctor great? No. Is he good? No. Can he hold a 5 or 6 run lead? Yes, and he did many times. Torre seemed to get this at the end of the year when he used Alan Embree with a 6 run lead in the 9th and Scott Proctor with a 4 run lead in the 9th. With Alan Embree, it did not work as he gave up a few hits in a row and Torre reluctantly had to bring in Gordon to finish it off. With Proctor, it did work and we got to save Mariano Rivera that day - which was fantastic.

It's this type of managing that Torre should have been doing all year. Either way you are going to win the game, but many times your not going to have to use your ace reliever. Obviously, Torre is going to have a short leash in the late innings with these guys - even with big leads - and that's a good thing, but he could save 10 to 15 innings for each of his ace relievers by using his bullpen like he did at the end of the year. I remember after that Proctor game, everyone praised Torre (I'm sure yourself included) for saving Rivera and not using him.


You use the term "overuse" as a synonym for "abuse" -- which it is not.

If you own two cars and one of them breaks down every two weeks, you might have to drive the other one more than you would have liked. But that doesn't mean you mismanaged your cars, it just means that when you had an appointment you absolutely had to keep, you drove the car you knew would give you the best chance to reach your destination. And if the crappy car breaks down even when you have a lot of time to get to where you are going, the natural tendency is to drive the car you know would probably not give you so much trouble.
Yes, when you have an appointment that you absolutely have to keep, you use the better of the two cars (I like this comparison by the way); we agree. But we disagree on your latter sentence. Because by using the better car so much, and using it when you have a ton of time to get to your appointment, you should use the crappy car because later on in the year, the good car will start to breakdown and then you'll be stuck later in the year when you have those very important appointments.


The average usage for a leased vehicle is 12-15,000 miles a year. If you exceed that mileage, there is price to pay for it -- but if you drive that car 10% or 20% more than projected because your other car sucked, it does not mean that you abused your good car, it just means you put more mileage on it than the ideal. And if the reason you exceeded your mileage agreement was because your other car(s) were unreliable, then it is not your fault for driving the car you knew would get you there.
It is your fault that you exceeded that projection by 10% or 20% if you are using it to get to appointments that you have tons of time to get to. Use the crappy car when you have a lot of time and use the good car when you have an average amount or hardly any time (3 runs or less). Either way, your going to get to your appointment on time, just it might be a little more shaky every once in a while when you have a lot of time to get there. And the result of it being a little rough here and there is that at the end of the year, when you have an appointment that you need to get to and you don't have much time to get there, your good car will be ready to go without a problem.

JeffWeaverFan
01-16-06, 08:57 PM
:snooze: :snooze: :snooze:
This seems to be your only response to someone you don't agree with...

WebsterMulligan
01-16-06, 09:20 PM
This seems to be your only response to someone you don't agree with...

In all honesty, your Joe Torre "bullpen mismanagement" schtick is tiring.

:)

nhyankeefan
01-16-06, 09:49 PM
In all honesty, your Joe Torre "bullpen mismanagement" schtick is tiring.

:)

To be fair, Torre does mismanage the bullpen. But that's not the problem with Tanyon - he's not that good anyways. If the Yanks need to rely on him to play an important role in 06 they are in trouble.

keithf1
01-16-06, 10:07 PM
To be fair, Torre does mismanage the bullpen. But that's not the problem with Tanyon - he's not that good anyways. If the Yanks need to rely on him to play an important role in 06 they are in trouble.
I agree with this statement 100%.

38Special
01-16-06, 11:21 PM
In all honesty, your Joe Torre "bullpen mismanagement" schtick is tiring.

:)

I dont think Torre manages the bullpen well, but to say that he killed Sturtze's arm is hilarious

Leonard
01-16-06, 11:26 PM
I have been aching to jump in a discussion about our BP. I can't start a thread so I have to jump on someone else's.

Look at the winning combos with Rivera for 2 and Wetteland for 1. Doza for long relief, Nelson and stanton for 7 and 8 with Mo in the 9th.

WE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE...JUST MO

mik3
01-16-06, 11:49 PM
I have been aching to jump in a discussion about our BP. I can't start a thread so I have to jump on someone else's.

Look at the winning combos with Rivera for 2 and Wetteland for 1. Doza for long relief, Nelson and stanton for 7 and 8 with Mo in the 9th.

WE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE...JUST MO
Mo, Dotel, Farnsworth, Villone, Myers, Small, Wright, Proctor isn't close?

38Special
01-16-06, 11:54 PM
I have been aching to jump in a discussion about our BP. I can't start a thread so I have to jump on someone else's.

Look at the winning combos with Rivera for 2 and Wetteland for 1. Doza for long relief, Nelson and stanton for 7 and 8 with Mo in the 9th.

WE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE...JUST MO


I apologize if this is insulting to you, but why are there some people that always harp on the 90s teams as the blueprint but never really look at the numbers? The same ones who say that we need more Brosiuses

http://thebaseballcube.com/players/S/mike-stanton.shtml
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/N/jeff-nelson.shtml
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/M/ramiro-mendoza.shtml

All 3 were good pitchers, but all 3 were also very inconsistent. Stanton was shaky from year to year, Nelson had very low ERA's despite walking a million friggin guys, and Mendoza's career ERA is above 4.

If either Dotel or Farnsworth pitches anywhere near their peak skill level (Farnsworth 2005, Dotel any year), and Villone and Myers pitch like they usually do, this pen will be better than the Nelson/Stanton bullpens.

mik3
01-16-06, 11:56 PM
I apologize if this is insulting to you, but why are there some people that always harp on the 90s teams as the blueprint but never really look at the numbers? The same ones who say that we need more Brosiuses

http://thebaseballcube.com/players/S/mike-stanton.shtml
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/N/jeff-nelson.shtml
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/M/ramiro-mendoza.shtml

All 3 were good pitchers, but all 3 were also very inconsistent. Stanton was shaky from year to year, Nelson had very low ERA's despite walking a million friggin guys, and Mendoza's career ERA is above 4.

If either Dotel or Farnsworth pitches anywhere near their peak skill level (Farnsworth 2005, Dotel any year), and Villone and Myers pitch like they usually do, this pen will be better than the Nelson/Stanton bullpens.

People like to hold onto the wins. Like I'm sure in the late 80s everyone would have been calling out for more Reggies and Rivers and Thurmans.

38Special
01-17-06, 12:00 AM
People like to hold onto the wins. Like I'm sure in the late 80s everyone would have been calling out for more Reggies and Rivers and Thurmans.
Yeah but at least Reggie and Munson make sense because they were top-tier players who were one of the best at their position year after year.

genius-24
01-17-06, 12:50 AM
The list of pitchers who have appeared in both games of a doubleheader is too long, but here are the pitchers who have 2 complete game victories on the same day:

http://baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats24.shtml

Well, u know doubleheader are kinda rare ;)

GimeMoMuny
01-17-06, 01:16 AM
To be fair, Torre does mismanage the bullpen. But that's not the problem with Tanyon - he's not that good anyways. If the Yanks need to rely on him to play an important role in 06 they are in trouble.The low to medium-leverage situational roles that Tanyon could play are important (ie, mop-up man, bridge from Villone to Myers, etc).

It's important for the better pitchers in the pen to be relegated to the greater roles.

surge511
01-17-06, 08:23 AM
This bullpen has the potential to perform like Stanton/Nelson/Rivera did. However, there are many question marks. Can Farnsworth pitch like the dominating force he is paid to be? Can Sturtze hold down the fort until Dotel comes back? Can Dotel come back? And if he does, who will step up and be the 6th inning guy?

Really though, this whole setup situation starts with Farnsworth, and if he isn't performing well, we are in a LOT of trouble.

Cold Shad
01-17-06, 09:17 AM
[QUOTE=surge511]This bullpen has the potential to perform like Stanton/Nelson/Rivera did. However, there are many question marks. Can Farnsworth pitch like the dominating force he is paid to be? Can Sturtze hold down the fort until Dotel comes back? Can Dotel come back? And if he does, who will step up and be the 6th inning guy?

Really though, this whole setup situation starts with Farnsworth, and if he isn't performing well, we are in a LOT of trouble.[/QU If Farnsworth has trouble earlyin the season yankee fans will need to be patient or they will have no set up man. If you just boo this guy He will start overthrowing and make things worse. Tom Gordon's performance is going to be hard to match. Especially for the first half of the season. Torre will start going to Rivera for four and five outs if he loses confidence in Farnsworth.

genius-24
01-17-06, 11:12 AM
This bullpen has the potential to perform like Stanton/Nelson/Rivera did. However, there are many question marks. Can Farnsworth pitch like the dominating force he is paid to be? Can Sturtze hold down the fort until Dotel comes back? Can Dotel come back? And if he does, who will step up and be the 6th inning guy?

Really though, this whole setup situation starts with Farnsworth, and if he isn't performing well, we are in a LOT of trouble.
I agree. Fransworth is main "link" in our renewed bullpen. But i think some more work needs to be done.
First of all, there is no guarantee on how sturtz gonna perform. He has all this issues with his arm. I think we need to get rid of him. I dont know what would his trade value be but that's not my point.
Getting rid of sturtz will free up a bullpen spot. Then, We can sign someone like Al Reyes or Jim Macir (IMO but these players have better to offer then sturtz) to take his spot.
Thoughts...

JeffWeaverFan
01-17-06, 11:30 AM
In all honesty, your Joe Torre "bullpen mismanagement" schtick is tiring.

:)
Understandably...




I dont think Torre manages the bullpen well, but to say that he killed Sturtze's arm is hilarious
Given Sturtze's track record, that's more than fair, but there is evidence that points to Torre overusing Sturtze (dead arm period, worn down shoulder) and there is also evidence that Sturtze started his decline after throwing a ton of innings out of the pen and after his start in the beginning of the season.

JeffWeaverFan
01-17-06, 11:32 AM
Torre will start going to Rivera for four and five outs if he loses confidence in Farnsworth.
That would be very costly for the end of the season. But, I have a great deal of confidence in Farnsworth so I think we'll be okay.

mik3
01-17-06, 11:35 AM
If we're worried about a 6th inning guy, we're screwed. But the same can be said about anyone.

YankeePride1967
01-17-06, 04:44 PM
Has anyone ever considered the possibility that Sturtze has never been that good of a pitcher and for a short period of time the Yanks got more than expected and that by some miracle of God that he has reverted back to the form he has demonstrated most of his career (that of a nothing special pitcher?)

Mr. Mxylsplk
01-17-06, 04:48 PM
Has anyone ever considered the possibility that Sturtze has never been that good of a pitcher and for a short period of time the Yanks got more than expected and that by some miracle of God that he has reverted back to the form he has demonstrated most of his career (that of a nothing special pitcher?)
I'm surprised people have considered anything else.

JeffWeaverFan
01-17-06, 08:27 PM
Has anyone ever considered the possibility that Sturtze has never been that good of a pitcher and for a short period of time the Yanks got more than expected and that by some miracle of God that he has reverted back to the form he has demonstrated most of his career (that of a nothing special pitcher?)
Yes, that is definitely a possibility. But, given the amount of innings he pitched in the beginning of the season coming out as a 1 IP guy, he really was given no chance of continuing the early season success.

YankeePride1967
01-17-06, 08:31 PM
Yes, that is definitely a possibility. But, given the amount of innings he pitched in the beginning of the season coming out as a 1 IP guy, he really was given no chance of continuing the early season success.

There is no doubt that he (and Go) were used more than they should.

deadrody
01-17-06, 09:33 PM
Thanks to Joe Torre, Tanyon Sturtze's shoulder appears to be on thin ice. Link (http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/ny-spken154589305jan15,0,6447935.column?coll=ny-sports-columnists)
And what's with this jab at Farnsworth by this guy? : http://www.newsday.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2004-02/11386280.jpg

Doesn't he know that Farnsworth has counted to infinity... twice!?

What ? What kind of diagnosis is "worn down and weak" ? Does an MRI show that, or an X-ray ? That's ridiculous. Either he has tendinitis or a tear, or he doesn't. Nothing like printing crap in a paper for the sake of it.

deadrody
01-17-06, 09:36 PM
It sounds to me like Sturtze is speaking in the past tense: "tests showed his shoulder to be worn-down and weak".

Come on. I hate to repeat myself, but there are no medical tests that indicate if your shoulder is "worn down and weak". Weakness ? Sure. But weakness is usually a sign of something more serious like a tear of some kind. If THOSE tests didn't indicate a tear or other mechanical joint failure, then he just needs to rest and strengthen the muscles. There STILL are no "tests" that indicate if your shoulder is "worn down and weak". That's just stupid.

dkman
01-17-06, 09:52 PM
This speculation is somewhat pointless because worn down and weak can mean several different things. They won't know how useful he will be until next season. You might be able to characterize my shoulder as worn down and weak after playing on three teams (2 at a time) last season and practices 5 days in a row. But does that mean I won't be fine this season? No. But that can also mean that his shoulder is like Pedro's and he doesn't have much stamina or velocity. (except without Pedro's change up of course)