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Mark19
01-09-06, 01:08 PM
Looking at the current 25 man roster, I am struck by how inflexible it remains. Andy Phillips and Cairo aren't great options away from their primary positions (1B and 2B) and our only good defensive outfielder, Bubba, can't hit much.

Short of going out and signing someone like Jeff DaVanon, Terrence Long or Richard Hidalgo, the Yankees need to do something about their depth.

To me the most obvious solution might be asking old man Bernie to learn another position. His range in center was very poor last year and his arm was even worse. Perhaps we should approach him to learn left field. He wouldn't start there with any regularity but Matsui will probably need some time at DH and having someone other than Bubba as an option off the bench becomes quite necessary.
When one considers that guys like Manny and Bonds will be starting 150 games in left field next season, Bernie doesn't look that terrible. His arm will cease to be a major liability and his range, while awful for a CF, may be passable for a LF.

I still think it is vitally necessary to give Sheff as much time at DH as possible but the current lineup construction doesn't really provide for that.

Perhaps the system could be:


Bernie spends 100 games at DH and 10 games in left while being the primary pinch-hitter.
Matsui plays 150 games in left with 10 games at DH.
Sheffield plays 125 games in right with 35 games at DH.
Giambi plays 140 games at 1st base with 20 games at DH.

KevinBaseball
01-09-06, 01:18 PM
Perhaps we should approach him to learn left field.

Do you want to do it or should I? We don't want it to look like we are ganging up on him.

BJG
01-09-06, 01:20 PM
It is very doubtful that Williams has the range for left or right. If he's been about 25 runs below average in center, that would normally make him about 17 runs below average on the corners based on the typical differences in Tango's truel talent fielding study. Since Bernie's strongpoint has never been reading the ball, it is quite possible he would be much worse (and I also think I'm being kind with the -25 in center).

Sam18
01-09-06, 01:21 PM
Bernie as DH for a 100 games is really really bad.

Mark19
01-09-06, 01:34 PM
Bernie as DH for a 100 games is really really bad.

It appears that is how Torre wants to use him. If we don't pick up a reliable productive 4th OF, Sheff will be an everyday RF and Bernie will be an everyday DH.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-09-06, 01:38 PM
the best position for Bernie is the bench. If he is the every day Dh than that is a big mistake imo. You want to have the least amount of blackholes as possible. Keeping the line moving.

Sam18
01-09-06, 01:40 PM
It appears that is how Torre wants to use him. If we don't pick up a reliable productive 4th OF, Sheff will be an everyday RF and Bernie will be an everyday DH.

:barf: :barf:
Bernie in the lineup and Sheff in RF. We really shouldn't have brought back Bernie.

YankClipper5
01-09-06, 01:41 PM
It appears that is how Torre wants to use him. If we don't pick up a reliable productive 4th OF, Sheff will be an everyday RF and Bernie will be an everyday DH.

You are right on, but I think Bernie has certain keys to being a good bat since he should be well rested and also will be able to focus primarily on hitting. He still has a great eye and he is a switch hitter which has its benefits to disrupting pitching matchups. I think by focusing almost strictly on hitting, he can probably have respectable hitting numbers. I wouldnt be surprised if he could swing to the tune of a .275 average and maybe a .375 OBP. Depending on how regularly he plays he can probably still stroke 20 HRs and help work pitch counts with his patience. While I would love for Sheff to be the primary DH and add a good defensive RF, I think the team can manage with Bernie at DH.

mik3
01-09-06, 01:42 PM
Bernie and Posada need to spend the spring taking balls at first.



And, we should sign Molina, but that has nothing to do with this thread other than keeping bernie from starting more than 50 games.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-09-06, 01:44 PM
You are right on, but I think Bernie has certain keys to being a good bat since he should be well rested and also will be able to focus primarily on hitting. He still has a great eye and he is a switch hitter which has its benefits to disrupting pitching matchups. I think by focusing almost strictly on hitting, he can probably have respectable hitting numbers. I wouldnt be surprised if he could swing to the tune of a .275 average and maybe a .375 OBP. Depending on how regularly he plays he can probably still stroke 20 HRs and help work pitch counts with his patience. While I would love for Sheff to be the primary DH and add a good defensive RF, I think the team can manage with Bernie at DH.

his numbers last year basically say there is about a .1% chance of him having a .375 OBP next season. If that happens(in a everyday DH roles) I will go streaking outside of Yankee stadium and videotape and put it on the internet. That being said I really hope it happens.

Wang's Groundballs
01-09-06, 01:46 PM
Since Bernie's strongpoint has never been reading the ball, it is quite possible he would be much worse (and I also think I'm being kind with the -25 in center).

I think -25 is probably Bernie's absolute worst true talent. For him to be even a true -30 runs out there he'd have to have a ZR around .763, nearly 100 points lower than it actually was last year. I agree with the rest of what you said, though.

And I actually wonder how good Matsui would be in CF for that very reason. It's too small of a sample size to make any conclusions, but he did very well in CF last year and perhaps he is able to overcome his lack of speed with better jumps out in the position he spent most of his career at. Of course it doesn't matter much anymore...

Krall
01-09-06, 01:47 PM
Bernie as DH for a 100 games is really really bad.

Yeah wishful thinking on my part but…

Bernie could always hit and had some power. His biggest problem was chronic injury and playing in the field with that doesn’t help your hitting much. He’s not the prototypical DH but I think he’ll put up some good numbers there as long as he doesn’t use the glove any :)

At any rate barring any major unforeseen events we are going to just how good or bad of a DH he is ;)

Sam18
01-09-06, 01:53 PM
Yeah wishful thinking on my part but…

Bernie could always hit and had some power. His biggest problem was chronic injury and playing in the field with that doesn’t help your hitting much. He’s not the prototypical DH but I think he’ll put up some good numbers there as long as he doesn’t use the glove any :)

At any rate barring any major unforeseen events we are going to just how good or bad of a DH he is ;)

Having Bernie DH is double bad because it means Sheff in RF where he's a liability.

ShaneTravis
01-09-06, 02:14 PM
Having Bernie DH is double bad because it means Sheff in RF where he's a liability.

Remember in Sept when we held a collective breath when Sheff's thigh was giving him problems? Well, he is a year older and best suited for DH.

Bernie Williams should not be on the team this year. I better plan would have been to find a suitable corner outfielder and have Sheff DH.

BJG
01-09-06, 02:15 PM
I think -25 is probably Bernie's absolute worst true talent. For him to be even a true -30 runs out there he'd have to have a ZR around .763, nearly 100 points lower than it actually was last year. I agree with the rest of what you said, though .

Course, Bernie had a -44 UZR in 2004 in center, so I still think, 2 years older, that -25 might be pushing his luck in terms of projecting.

brosiusbuddy
01-09-06, 02:28 PM
Looking at the current 25 man roster, I am struck by how inflexible it remains. Andy Phillips and Cairo aren't great options away from their primary positions (1B and 2B) and our only good defensive outfielder, Bubba, can't hit much.

Short of going out and signing someone like Jeff DaVanon, Terrence Long or Richard Hidalgo, the Yankees need to do something about their depth.

To me the most obvious solution might be asking old man Bernie to learn another position. His range in center was very poor last year and his arm was even worse. Perhaps we should approach him to learn left field. He wouldn't start there with any regularity but Matsui will probably need some time at DH and having someone other than Bubba as an option off the bench becomes quite necessary.
When one considers that guys like Manny and Bonds will be starting 150 games in left field next season, Bernie doesn't look that terrible. His arm will cease to be a major liability and his range, while awful for a CF, may be passable for a LF.

I still think it is vitally necessary to give Sheff as much time at DH as possible but the current lineup construction doesn't really provide for that.

Perhaps the system could be:

Bernie spends 100 games at DH and 10 games in left while being the primary pinch-hitter.
Matsui plays 150 games in left with 10 games at DH.
Sheffield plays 125 games in right with 35 games at DH.
Giambi plays 140 games at 1st base with 20 games at DH.


depth offensively is not something i'm concerned about with this team. its very unlikely that you'd pinch hit for anyone in our starting lineup too often. offense hasnt really been this teams problem over the past few years and with the addition of damon to the top of the lineup, i expect runs to be even more plentiful in the coming years.

i think that if an outfielder needs a day off, bubba's defense makes up for his lack of offense and in a game where offense will be necessary, dont expect to see one of the 3 ofer's getting a day off anyways.

i think that our defense on the bench is very good. cairo plays 2b well, and 3b well and he can handle ss or OF if necessary. phillips showed he can play 1b and bubba's speed makes him a good fill in anywhere in the outfield. stinnett is said to be a defensive improvement over flash and if that's true than im fine with that. bernie can play CF if necessary and he will be a veteran and patient dh/ph.

as long as our bullpen can hold leads and keep runners off the base, we're in good shape

nnysiny
01-09-06, 02:39 PM
the thought of Bernie even appearaning in 100 games next year makes me wanna puke

Sam18
01-09-06, 03:25 PM
Remember in Sept when we held a collective breath when Sheff's thigh was giving him problems? Well, he is a year older and best suited for DH.

Bernie Williams should not be on the team this year. I better plan would have been to find a suitable corner outfielder and have Sheff DH.

Exactly. Having Bernie on this team screws up everything. It wouldn't be such a problem if we had another manager but we all know Joe will find a way for Bernie to play.

Jasbro
01-09-06, 03:30 PM
For the one-millionth time: Bernie will not be a regular player on this team at any position. He is being brought back with the understanding of all parties that he is a part-time player. A PH with an occasional -- but rare -- appearance as a DH or in the field. He will NOT be our fulltime DH, nor will he be a position player.


"There are no promises in terms of playing time or a role," Cashman said. "The clear definition was, going into this, like any role player, that it would not be an everyday situation."

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051222&content_id=1286648&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-09-06, 03:38 PM
For the one-millionth time: Bernie will not be a regular player on this team at any position. He is being brought back with the understanding of all parties that he is a part-time player. A PH with an occasional -- but rare -- appearance as a DH or in the field. He will NOT be our fulltime DH, nor will he be a position player.



http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051222&content_id=1286648&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

The problem is Joe Torre is running the team, not Cashman...

Jasbro
01-09-06, 03:38 PM
Bernie Williams should not be on the team this year. I better plan would have been to find a suitable corner outfielder and have Sheff DH.

If that is your concern then Bernie is not the problem with the current roster -- Bubba is. Bernie is not a 4th OF on this team -- he is a PH.

Jasbro
01-09-06, 03:42 PM
The problem is Joe Torre is running the team, not Cashman...

Time will tell what Bernie's role will turn out to be -- all I can do is point to the existing evidence, which pretty clearly is mapping out Bernie's '06 role as a PH.

I think the reason that it appears so inevitable to so many that Bernie will see more time than is being projected by Torre and Cash is that Bubba is such a very weak option at 4th OF. If we can get a major league player into that slot, Bernie will be lucky to see 225 ABs.

BW51
01-09-06, 03:43 PM
Bernie spends 100 games at DH and 10 games in left while being the primary pinch-hitter.
Matsui plays 150 games in left with 10 games at DH.
Sheffield plays 125 games in right with 35 games at DH.
Giambi plays 140 games at 1st base with 20 games at DH.



Well, in regards to the thread in particular, i think it's apparent that Williams is going to have to work on the corner outfield positions throughout spring training if even just to see if he could be used every once in a while to spell the other games....


and Giambi at 140 games at 1b after only 78 games played there in 2005 and only 139 games played total??...ummmmm, ok

ShaneTravis
01-09-06, 03:45 PM
For the one-millionth time: Bernie will not be a regular player on this team at any position. He is being brought back with the understanding of all parties that he is a part-time player. A PH with an occasional -- but rare -- appearance as a DH or in the field. He will NOT be our fulltime DH, nor will he be a position player.



http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051222&content_id=1286648&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

I read that same qoute and I respectfully disagree. Unless a trade is in the future, Bernie is going to get the bulk of DH duties. I don't really see Phillips and Giambi splitting that much time.
Phillips is backup and Jason is a starting first baseman. There is simply no one left on the roster that will take at bats away from Bernie (DH).
Unless Bubba is going to split time with SHeff...who else is on the team is Joe going to trust at DH?

I have been saying for some time that the Yanks are going to make a trade (Ibanez) for a capable corner Of'r to let Sheff DH and Bernie PH. But, untill that happens I still think Bernie will get his < 250 at bats.


"A PH with an occasional -- but rare -- appearance as a DH or in the field."
I hope you are right.

Jasbro
01-09-06, 03:46 PM
and Giambi at 140 games at 1b after only 78 games played there in 2005 and only 139 games played total??...ummmmm, ok

Exactly. Giambi will not see 100 games at 1B this year -- even if healthy throughout. I expect to see him as our primary DH, with Shef getting the next most ABs in that slot.

Mark19
01-09-06, 03:47 PM
Well, in regards to the thread in particular, i think it's apparent that Williams is going to have to work on the corner outfield positions throughout spring training if even just to see if he could be used every once in a while to spell the other games....


and Giambi at 140 games at 1b after only 78 games played there in 2005 and only 139 games played total??...ummmmm, ok

It is the broad assumption that no one gets injured. Giambi is a key part of our offense, he won't get many days off and with Bernie and possibly Sheff taking up primary DHing, Jason will be our main first baseman with Phillips probably coming in after the 7th inning.

genius-24
01-09-06, 03:48 PM
Bernie's signing definitely adds to INFLEXIBILITY in our roster, but i THINK this move had to be done b/c bernie had done TONS of things in past to help our club win.

Bernie's signing fills up a critical roster spot. BUT i still THINK that this deal won't hurt us A LOT if we pull off the RIGHT moves.

Solution:

-First of all try to sign Jeff DaVanon. This dude can play all OF positions. He has power, speed, and decent OBP. He also has playoff experience which is always vital.
-Second, Trade Bubba. We had high hopes for him 3 years b4, but i think he hasn't lived up to his potential. I REALLY dont care what we get in return. Main reason i want to get rid of him because it will free up a roster spot.
-Third, Trade for Micheals. I would like to see him start around 100 games in RF, which will make sheff DH. He has high OBP, and he hits for avg. More...he can play all OF positions. If we deal sturtz here then we MUST have to sign someone to take his position. Consideration: Tavarez.

AT this point we should have ABOUT 26 players in our roster. But...

I would suggest we trade away wright+cash for someone LIKE Juan Dominguez of the rangers. If this works...then...we can have him pitch in AAA until someone gets injured. This trade will free up a spot and at the end we will have 25 players in our roster. :)

Jasbro
01-09-06, 03:50 PM
I read that same qoute and I respectfully disagree. Unless a trade is in the future, Bernie is going to get the bulk of DH duties. I don't really see Phillips and Giambi splitting that much time.
Phillips is backup and Jason is a starting first baseman. There is simply no one left on the roster that will take at bats away from Bernie (DH).
Unless Bubba is going to split time with SHeff...who else is on the team is Joe going to trust at DH?

I have been saying for some time that the Yanks are going to make a trade (Ibanez) for a capable corner Of'r to let Sheff DH and Bernie PH. But, untill that happens I still think Bernie will get his < 250 at bats.


"A PH with an occasional -- but rare -- appearance as a DH or in the field."
I hope you are right.

Upgrading from Bubba as the 4th OF is the key to keeping Bernie in the PH role (where I think he will excel) and giving more DH opportunities to Shef. I would love to upgrade Phillips too (or in the same deal) -- which would give us even more options at DH.

Bernie as a PH is a nice have. Our bench weakness rests in Crosby/Phillips, not with Bernie as the PH.

Mark19
01-09-06, 03:58 PM
Exactly. Giambi will not see 100 games at 1B this year -- even if healthy throughout. I expect to see him as our primary DH, with Shef getting the next most ABs in that slot.

As time as gone on, the gap between his production at 1B and DH has widened. Even ignoring the problems he indured in 2004 and the start of 2005, the last year that his DH numbers even came close to his 1B numbers were in 2000 and 2001 when he only started a dozen games there.

I would be surprised to see Giambi start more than 25-35 games at DH. I think it is far more likely that he will get one or two games a week at DH and spend the rest of the time at 1B with Phillips filling in for him during blow-outs or late in games.

If Phillips is our primary first baseman I am expecting to see Tony Clark-esque numbers except with less power.

It would be a big gamble for the FO to pencil Giambi in as the primary DH and plan on giving 300 ABs to a guy who proven zero at the ML level. If Cashman really wanted put serious limits on Jason's time in the field, we would have signed someone like Snow, Hatteberg or Eduardo Perez.

Mark19
01-09-06, 04:02 PM
Bernie's signing definitely adds to INFLEXIBILITY in our roster, but i THINK this move had to be done b/c bernie had done TONS of things in past to help our club win.

Bernie's signing fills up a critical roster spot. BUT i still THINK that this deal won't hurt us A LOT if we pull off the RIGHT moves.

Solution:

-First of all try to sign Jeff DaVanon. This dude can play all OF positions. He has power, speed, and decent OBP. He also has playoff experience which is always vital.
-Second, Trade Bubba. We had high hopes for him 3 years b4, but i think he hasn't lived up to his potential. I REALLY dont care what we get in return. Main reason i want to get rid of him because it will free up a roster spot.
-Third, Trade for Micheals. I would like to see him start around 100 games in RF, which will make sheff DH. He has high OBP, and he hits for avg. More...he can play all OF positions. If we deal sturtz here then we MUST have to sign someone to take his position. Consideration: Tavarez.

AT this point we should have ABOUT 26 players in our roster. But...

I would suggest we trade away wright+cash for someone LIKE Juan Dominguez of the rangers. If this works...then...we can have him pitch in AAA until someone gets injured. This trade will free up a spot and at the end we will have 25 players in our roster. :)

what?

The rumor was that DaVanon failed his physical with the D-backs -- his decreased production in 2005 may be because of health reasons. No one wants Bubba, can't trade him. Jason Michaels will cost a lot in a trade, the Phillies now how much demand there is for him right now. No one wants Wright, the only way the Rangers take him is if we agree to take Phil Nevin in return. No Thanks.

ShaneTravis
01-09-06, 04:11 PM
Upgrading from Bubba as the 4th OF is the key to keeping Bernie in the PH role (where I think he will excel) and giving more DH opportunities to Shef. I would love to upgrade Phillips too (or in the same deal) -- which would give us even more options at DH.

Bernie as a PH is a nice have. Our bench weakness rests in Crosby/Phillips, not with Bernie as the PH.

I certainly see your point. I think we are saying the same thing but coming from different directions.

"Our bench weakness rests in Crosby/Phillips, not with Bernie as the PH."
100% in agreement.

I do not want Bernie/Bubba/Phillips to comprise the 500 at bats @ DH in 2006.
I thought a better plan would to get a Full Time DH (Durazo) and let Bubba spell the guys out in the field or get a Preston Wilson who could be our 4th Of'r and get the bulk of the DH duties.

A best case scenerio would be to get Michaels/Wilkerson to be a full time player just rotate.

stephsamps
01-09-06, 04:17 PM
I don't see Phillips starting the season as our 1B/back up 1B. Not sure who else it is going to be, but I am thinking it will be someone besides Andy.

genius-24
01-09-06, 04:18 PM
what?

The rumor was that DaVanon failed his physical with the D-backs -- his decreased production in 2005 may be because of health reasons. No one wants Bubba, can't trade him. Jason Michaels will cost a lot in a trade, the Phillies now how much demand there is for him right now. No one wants Wright, the only way the Rangers take him is if we agree to take Phil Nevin in return. No Thanks.

I guess i am not quiet good at following MLB news. I always thought DaVanon was one of the best 4th outfielder in the free agency. If not micheals then austin kearns would be good option at RF. If the reds took womack then they might take wright? Just throwing things out there.

BW51
01-09-06, 04:19 PM
It would be a big gamble for the FO to pencil Giambi in as the primary DH and plan on giving 300 ABs to a guy who proven zero at the ML level. If Cashman really wanted put serious limits on Jason's time in the field, we would have signed someone like Snow, Hatteberg or Eduardo Perez.

I agree that we should've been in on J.T. Snow, I think that would've been a solid signing, and for only 2 million dollars. I'd feel much more comfortable with Snow than Phillips, altho I don't know if Phillips has the ability to play 3B and 2B, not sure...

Really, what I can't wait for is the day that Eric Duncan is the everyday firstbaseman, joining Jeter, Arod and if he's still here Cano. It is as this point that enough of this 1B/DH. It is such a waste of a roster spot.

The team of the 90's was so successful because of not only the players they had were so good, but they were athletic figures and had an extremely good/flexible bench.

It's nice to have 9 guys who we have right now who are some of the best players at their position, but it leads to too much wear and too much inflexibility with our team and bench.


The 90's team had a set infield, guys would could play anywere in the infield (Sojo, Vizcaino, Wilson (altho not on the 90's teams)...and guys like Curtis, Ledee who could play all 3 outfield spots and Spencer on the corners

Not to mention a guy like Clay Bellinger who could play pretty much anywhere.

Jorge Posada 130, 140 games at catcher, that's nice, he's tough, okay....but the Posada/Girardi combination was much better for the longevity of the season and playoffs

That Jason Giambi can not play 155 games at 1b is an extreme detriment to this team

BronxBombers2005
01-09-06, 04:29 PM
We are going to need Sheff in RF, he a connon for a arm. Meanwhile i think Bernie will be our DH most of the time, sharing it sometimes with Giambi.

NHYank
01-09-06, 04:31 PM
It's not Bernie who is inflexible. You have a switch hitting dh who is making $1.5 mil. The inflexibilty is at 1b. You have a DH making $17 mil who has no range and cannot throw the ball. The other !B is a rookie who strikes out all the time.

BobbyMurcerFan
01-09-06, 04:32 PM
FWIW, Bernie played LF when he first came up. The switch from CF to LF is one of the more reasonable defensive switches to make.

That being said, even in LF you do need a little bit of an arm. Do you really see Bernie Williams throwing ANYONE out at the plate from LF?

PerfectCone
01-09-06, 04:41 PM
I still can't believe management catered to Bernie and gave him more money to waste a roster spot. I'm sorry, but the man showed that he is washed up last season and there was no reason to give him another go round. I love Bernie, but I think he is being completely selfish.

BW51
01-09-06, 04:46 PM
It's not Bernie who is inflexible. You have a switch hitting dh who is making $1.5 mil. The inflexibilty is at 1b. You have a DH making $17 mil who has no range and cannot throw the ball. The other !B is a rookie who strikes out all the time.

bravo! bravo!

better said in a couple of sentences than i did in my jibberish 2 posts prior

BJG
01-09-06, 04:53 PM
bravo! bravo!

better said in a couple of sentences than i did in my jibberish 2 posts prior

Giambi is a better 1B than Bernie is an OF. Frightening, but true.

Sam18
01-09-06, 04:59 PM
It's not Bernie who is inflexible. You have a switch hitting dh who is making $1.5 mil. The inflexibilty is at 1b. You have a DH making $17 mil who has no range and cannot throw the ball. The other !B is a rookie who strikes out all the time.

Player A: Can't hit for sh*t, can't field for sh*t at any position.
Player B: Was the second best hitter on the team last year, below average fielder at a not so important position(when compared to the OF).
Player A: As a DH forces a way, way below average, old and injury prone player to play a important position.
Player B: As a 1B gives us a chance to DH Sheff(thus making him less injury prone) and also gives us a chance to improve OF defense which is more important than 1B.

And wtf does Bernie being a switch hitter have to do with anything?

BW51
01-09-06, 05:08 PM
Giambi is a better 1B than Bernie is an OF. Frightening, but true.


this is true, it can't be denied, not even considering the difficulty difference between the two positions...

however, that Giambi is better at 1b than Bernie is in the OF is a true statement, i agree...but the that Giambi, at 17 million dollars, can't be out there for 140+ games is unsettling

BW51
01-09-06, 05:14 PM
In my opinion, a solid enough DH was Chili Davis and this is what he gave us in 1999:

in 146 gms, 476 ab's, 19 HR, 78 RBI, 59 R, 128 Hits, 25 2B, .366 obp,.269 avg.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/historical/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=113099

does anyone really believe that bernie can at the least match that?

BJG
01-09-06, 05:15 PM
this is true, it can't be denied, not even considering the difficulty difference between the two positions...

however, that Giambi is better at 1b than Bernie is in the OF is a true statement, i agree...but the that Giambi, at 17 million dollars, can't be out there for 140+ games is unsettling

Why? He's there to hit. If he throws up another .346 EQA, whether it's at 1B or DH, that isn't a problem. That's a good thing. A problem is a player who is net below average. Giambi, net, is well above average. If anything, he's the kind of guy you do give a long term deal to because his value isn't going to drastically change as he ages/declines. He was a 1B/DH when you signed him and he'll be a 1B/DH when he's done. That's really different from signing a SS or CF whose value is often wrapped up in the position they play. As they age and have to move off of that position, unless they were a SS or CF who hit like Giambi, their value becomes more iffy.

SINCE77 2
01-09-06, 05:22 PM
Player A: Can't hit for sh*t, can't field for sh*t at any position.
Player B: Was the second best hitter on the team last year, below average fielder at a not so important position(when compared to the OF).
Player A: As a DH forces a way, way below average, old and injury prone player to play a important position.
Player B: As a 1B gives us a chance to DH Sheff(thus making him less injury prone) and also gives us a chance to improve OF defense which is more important than 1B.

And wtf does Bernie being a switch hitter have to do with anything?




Player A: Has given this team damn near 15 years of service and was directly responsible for pompous individuals like yourself being recent fans of this team due to his offensive and defensive contributions.

Player B: Irrespective of his OBP/OPS is one of the worst FA signings this team has made. He has forced this team to deal with his need for personal trainers, steroids, crappy defense and his poor 1B/DH offensive splits.


Bernie's measley 1.5mill and 200 at-bats isn't going to make or break this team. Worry about the defensively poor 20mill man at 1B who just can't get himself to focus while in the DH spot forcing the Yankees to once again work around him.

guidry36
01-09-06, 05:25 PM
Looking at the current 25 man roster, I am struck by how inflexible it remains. Andy Phillips and Cairo aren't great options away from their primary positions (1B and 2B) and our only good defensive outfielder, Bubba, can't hit much.

Short of going out and signing someone like Jeff DaVanon, Terrence Long or Richard Hidalgo, the Yankees need to do something about their depth.

To me the most obvious solution might be asking old man Bernie to learn another position. His range in center was very poor last year and his arm was even worse. Perhaps we should approach him to learn left field. He wouldn't start there with any regularity but Matsui will probably need some time at DH and having someone other than Bubba as an option off the bench becomes quite necessary.
When one considers that guys like Manny and Bonds will be starting 150 games in left field next season, Bernie doesn't look that terrible. His arm will cease to be a major liability and his range, while awful for a CF, may be passable for a LF.

I still think it is vitally necessary to give Sheff as much time at DH as possible but the current lineup construction doesn't really provide for that.

Perhaps the system could be:

Bernie spends 100 games at DH and 10 games in left while being the primary pinch-hitter.
Matsui plays 150 games in left with 10 games at DH.
Sheffield plays 125 games in right with 35 games at DH.
Giambi plays 140 games at 1st base with 20 games at DH.

I can't recall the source, but I do recall reading that Bernie will be tried in LF during spring training. I don't consider the bench inflexible.....A-Rod is the backup SS....Cairo is good at 2B and Decent at 1B/3B....he can play OF in a pinch. Replacing Sierra and Bellhorn with Bernie and Cairo makes the bench more flexible. It would be a huge stretch to see Giambi play 120 games at 1B...... more likely 100 games, if his knees hold up. Phillips can play 2B or 3B in an emergency....not that there should ever be a reason for that to happen, but he does have some versatility. I don't see Bernie playing 100 games at DH, Giambi and Sheffield could easily have 80 games between the 2 of them. The key is whether 11 or 12 pitchers are carried. Torre and Cashman prefer 11, but a reliever or 2 needs to be traded first. DaVanon, Michael Tucker, or Kevin Thompson could fill the final spot, unless Molina is somehow talked into signing. Bernie will hit better this year, but the team is better served limiting his appearances. I don't see him as a waste of a roster spot....Sierra gave nothing last year, but Bernie could hit .280 or better in a limited role.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-09-06, 05:28 PM
Player A: Has given this team damn near 15 years of service and was directly responsible for pompous individuals like yourself being recent fans of this team due to his offensive and defensive contributions.
What does that have to do with the 2006 Yankees?



Player B: Irrespective of his OBP/OPS is one of the worst FA signings this team has made. He has forced this team to deal with his need for personal trainers, steroids, crappy defense and his poor 1B/DH offensive splits.

You can't just throw out his offense, and say he is one of the worst signings. He has put up monster numbers as a Yankee despite all of the crap. Yeah, he isn't the best defensive first baseman or even a good one, but Matsui, Jeter, Sheffield, and Posada are all poor defensive players as well with less offensive output...



Bernie's measley 1.5mill and 200 at-bats isn't going to make or break this team. Worry about the defensively poor 20mill man at 1B who just can't get himself to focus while in the DH spot forcing the Yankees to once again work around him.

It's not about the money, its about taking up a spot in the lineup that can be used for a player that is actually good...

JeffWeaverFan
01-09-06, 05:28 PM
Bernie as DH for a 100 games is really really bad.
Yes. Bernie in the lineup is really bad. He can't defend enough to play in the outfield and he can't hit enough to play DH.

ryanm1058123
01-09-06, 05:30 PM
It's really sad that Cashman has to make this team Torre-proof.

Sam18
01-09-06, 05:36 PM
Player A: Has given this team damn near 15 years of service and was directly responsible for pompous individuals like yourself being recent fans of this team due to his offensive and defensive contributions.


So you're one of those not so pompous individuals who think loyalty is more important than the sucess of the team? Got it.


Player B: Irrespective of his OBP/OPS is one of the worst FA signings this team has made.

What exactly did you expect from Giambi when we signed him? Yeah he's not Oakland Giambi but he has been the team's best hitter the past four years and on top of that has performed in the playoffs. WTF more you want from him?


He has forced this team to deal with his need for personal trainers, steroids,

And yet he's one of the most popular guys in the clubhouse.


crappy defense and his poor 1B/DH offensive splits.

And he still is one of the best players on the team.


Bernie's measley 1.5mill and 200 at-bats isn't going to make or break this team.

Yeah, what's a few games and a roster space. Let's give him another five years to show how much we love him.


Worry about the defensively poor 20mill man at 1B who just can't get himself to focus while in the DH spot forcing the Yankees to once again work around him.

You mean the one that is the second best hitter on the team? You mean the one that plays a defensive position that isn't as important as the others? That one?

YankeePride1967
01-09-06, 05:36 PM
What does that have to do with the 2006 Yankees?



You can't just throw out his offense, and say he is one of the worst signings. He has put up monster numbers as a Yankee despite all of the crap. Yeah, he isn't the best first baseman or even a good one, but Matsui, Jeter, Sheffield, and Posada are all poor defensive players as well with less offensive output...



It's not about the money, its about taking up a spot in the lineup that can be used for a player that is actually good...

Agreed on all counts. I don't care how much Bernie is making, if he gets too much action, his lack of production will hurt us. In the same breath we thank him for his great past.

ryanthe13th
01-09-06, 06:22 PM
Bernie had a great send off last year. Part of me thinks that Bernie didn't retire due to the Yankees not making it past the first round, and part of me thinks he is in the denial phase.

As for Bernie not being the everyday DH, I hope that maybe Torre and Co. are considering Bubba in RF with Sheffield to DH. Giambi hits way better when playing the field than he does as a DH, significantly enough to play him in the field.

ring403
01-09-06, 06:31 PM
Player A: Has given this team damn near 15 years of service and was directly responsible for pompous individuals like yourself being recent fans of this team due to his offensive and defensive contributions.

Completely unnecessary personal insult.

Cold Shad
01-09-06, 06:37 PM
Exactly. Giambi will not see 100 games at 1B this year -- even if healthy throughout. I expect to see him as our primary DH, with Shef getting the next most ABs in that slot.
Giambi is not physically flexible enough to play first without injuring himself. If bernie is used as a pinch hitter, Torre will DH him as soon as he is productive in that role. JT cant resist riding the hot horse even if it is into the ground. Pinch hitters are rarely used in the AL any way. Who the hell is he going to pinch hit for on the YAnkees? Maybe Stinnett when Johnson pitches. Other than that I just don't see that many ABs.

genius-24
01-09-06, 06:40 PM
DHing bernie will create lot of chaos in our lineup since his numbers are clearly declining.
We need sheff to DH atleast 100 times. To do that we need to get good/decent RF. So lets focus on that...

ryanthe13th
01-09-06, 06:41 PM
I don't think the Yankees are going to be making anymore acquisitions. Hopefully, someone can come into Spring Training and light the world on fire enough to earn a shot at the corner outfield spot. If not, then it looks like we're faced with a rotating DH or Bernie.

SINCE77 2
01-09-06, 06:45 PM
So you're one of those not so pompous individuals who think loyalty is more important than the sucess of the team? Got it.




What makes you think that Bernie can't put up .360-370 OBP or have an OPS of .750-.800? IMO, he will have a fine season. Don't agree? Too bad, not our call.



What exactly did you expect from Giambi when we signed him? Yeah he's not Oakland Giambi but he has been the team's best hitter the past four years and on top of that has performed in the playoffs. WTF more you want from him?



I expected exactly what we got. A no defense steroid enhanced player who could have had a solid career without the enhancements. I guess his 2004 numbers solidified his "teams best hitter" vote for the past four years. As far as WTF I want from him; I never wanted him as we had his unenhanced offensive equal in NJ and a willing Martinez to train him at 1B.



And yet he's one of the most popular guys in the clubhouse.




Yankees had a public commercial done for Strawberry (even with all the crap he pulled) when he was diagnosed with cancer. Yankees showed public support for Mel and Torre when they had their dealings with cancer. No one said a damn word when Giambi finally came clean about his tumor nor was there a show of public support from the team leaders.



And he still is one of the best players on the team.

I beg to differ.



Yeah, what's a few games and a roster space. Let's give him another five years to show how much we love him.



Nope, but one more year isn't going to kill us.



You mean the one that is the second best hitter on the team? You mean the one that plays a defensive position that isn't as important as the others? That one?



Considering that any ball directly over his head or to the right of him is a double, I would consider that position quite important. As far as him being the 2nd best hitter on the team, I don't believe that opposing pitchers share your view these days.

ryanthe13th
01-09-06, 06:50 PM
Considering that any ball directly over his head or to the right of him is a double, I would consider that position quite important. As far as him being the 2nd best hitter on the team, I don't believe that opposing pitchers share your view these days.

I'm glad opposing pitchers don't share our view about Giambi being the second best hitter. The only people that count in that field are the statisticians. Let the pitchers not respect Giambi, they started doing that in the second half and he was having multiple HR games like he was in Little League.

SINCE77 2
01-09-06, 06:52 PM
Completely unnecessary personal insult.


I thought that this forum also condemned playerbashing. Saying that Bernie can't hit or defend for s*** is bashing imo. Other individuals claiming that they want to puke because of Bernie is DH'ing is reprehensible.

SINCE77 2
01-09-06, 06:54 PM
I'm glad opposing pitchers don't share our view about Giambi being the second best hitter. The only people that count in that field are the statisticians. Let the pitchers not respect Giambi, they started doing that in the second half and he was having multiple HR games like he was in Little League.


Where was this cockiness during the 1st half of the 2005 season? Where was it during the entire 2004 season?

ryanthe13th
01-09-06, 07:01 PM
Where was this cockiness during the 1st half of the 2005 season? Where was it during the entire 2004 season?

When did Giambi ever get cocky? When he did start having success, all I ever heard from him was:

"I'm seeing the ball real well lately."
"I've just been working with Donny a lot and it's paying off."

I guess he was out of the 2004 season because of some tumor, but shame on him for that right?

YankeePride1967
01-09-06, 07:02 PM
I thought that this forum also condemned playerbashing. Saying that Bernie can't hit or defend for s*** is bashing imo. Other individuals claiming that they want to puke because of Bernie is DH'ing is reprehensible.

so then we can only say Bernie is still a great player or we're "bashing" him?

BJG
01-09-06, 07:04 PM
I thought that this forum also condemned playerbashing. Saying that Bernie can't hit or defend for s*** is bashing imo. Other individuals claiming that they want to puke because of Bernie is DH'ing is reprehensible.

Bernie is a horrible defensive outfielder. Every defensive metric points this out.

Bernie hit .249/.321/.367. He was not only a below average major league hitter (81 OPS+), but even worse if he slots into an offensive spot like DH, RF, or LF. It isn't even average for CF.

The result is a bad player. This isn't bashing, it just the cold, hard, facts. Willie Mays stunk in 1973, but saying so doesn't mean I'm bashing him or his career.

ryanthe13th
01-09-06, 07:07 PM
And if you want to call out Giambi for the first half of 2005, where was Bernie for the entire duration of 2005?

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-09-06, 07:11 PM
Considering that any ball directly over his head or to the right of him is a double, I would consider that position quite important. As far as him being the 2nd best hitter on the team, I don't believe that opposing pitchers share your view these days.

Well considering you have absolutely no idea what opposing pitchers think nor does it really matter what they think, Giambi is the second, even possibly the best hitter on the team...

Jasbro
01-09-06, 07:55 PM
In my opinion, a solid enough DH was Chili Davis and this is what he gave us in 1999:

in 146 gms, 476 ab's, 19 HR, 78 RBI, 59 R, 128 Hits, 25 2B, .366 obp,.269 avg.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/historical/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=113099

does anyone really believe that bernie can at the least match that?

No. Which is why he won't be our DH.

But it is not unreasonable to think that as a PH and an occasional, but rare, DH/OF he can give us reasonably proportional numbers to Chili's with about half the number of ABs you show.

The Q Bomb
01-09-06, 07:56 PM
You can't just throw out his offense, and say he is one of the worst signings. He has put up monster numbers as a Yankee despite all of the crap. Yeah, he isn't the best defensive first baseman or even a good one, but Matsui, Jeter, Sheffield, and Posada are all poor defensive players as well with less offensive output...
It blows my mind when YANKEE fans call Jeter a poor defensive player. THere are other shortstops who are better, to be sure, but he is certainly not "poor" defensively.

dmsimon15
01-09-06, 08:10 PM
Bernie should be in the D.H. slot without a doubt. He may not have the legs to cover centerfield anymore, but he is still a .270 to .280 hitter. Bernie has delivered in the clutch for the Yankees many times and he's the best choice on the roster to take that spot in the lineup, except when Sheffield, Matsui, or even Giambi needs a day off.

BJG
01-09-06, 08:12 PM
It blows my mind when YANKEE fans call Jeter a poor defensive player. THere are other shortstops who are better, to be sure, but he is certainly not "poor" defensively.

Why? If we believe that the defensive metrics are at least close to being accurate and they all say the same thing about Jeter, it would be terribly disengenuous to claim that Jeter is the sole exception simply because he plays for 'our' team.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-09-06, 08:16 PM
It blows my mind when YANKEE fans call Jeter a poor defensive player. THere are other shortstops who are better, to be sure, but he is certainly not "poor" defensively.

Umm, Yes he is, Jeter's UZR from 2000-2003 was a -28. That is actually the worst in that time period.

http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html

Also, Jeter was one of the lucky ones to get rated this year by Lichtman (MGL) in supposively his "gold glove" year and was a -14.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/major_league_baseball_first_timers_highlight_al_gold_gloves/ (scroll down to post #39)

You can use whatever defensive metric you want, but Jeter isn't an average or above average shortstop by any means...

Sam18
01-09-06, 08:44 PM
Bernie should be in the D.H. slot without a doubt. He may not have the legs to cover centerfield anymore, but he is still a .270 to .280 hitter. Bernie has delivered in the clutch for the Yankees many times and he's the best choice on the roster to take that spot in the lineup, except when Sheffield, Matsui, or even Giambi needs a day off.

Bernie hasn't hit over .263 since 02', what makes you think he's gonna magically turn things around? He's a really, really bad hitter now.

SINCE77 2
01-09-06, 09:29 PM
When did Giambi ever get cocky? When he did start having success, all I ever heard from him was:

"I'm seeing the ball real well lately."
"I've just been working with Donny a lot and it's paying off."

I guess he was out of the 2004 season because of some tumor, but shame on him for that right?


Never said Giambi . I was referring to some of his resurgent supporters.

SINCE77 2
01-09-06, 09:38 PM
Well considering you have absolutely no idea what opposing pitchers think nor does it really matter what they think, Giambi is the second, even possibly the best hitter on the team...



If Cashman could find any GM stupid enough to even consider trading for him Giambi would be gone in a NY minute. Best thing is that barring some spectacular "Yankee WS moment" Giambi's tenure with the Bombers will disappear into obscurity.

JDPNYY
01-09-06, 09:41 PM
Team guitarist?

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-09-06, 09:51 PM
If Cashman could find any GM stupid enough to even consider trading for him Giambi would be gone in a NY minute.

What does that have to do with anything? There are a lot of contracts out there that were signed during an inflated period that would be hard to move. If Giambi puts up the numbers he has, the money we are paying him would be well spent compared to other contracts on the team...



Best thing is that barring some spectacular "Yankee WS moment" Giambi's tenure with the Bombers will disappear into obscurity.

Only to you it will...

27IsNext
01-09-06, 09:53 PM
The problem is Joe Torre is running the team, not Cashman...

I've been highly critical of Torre in the past, but we all said the same thing about Tino, and we were all wrong.

guidry36
01-09-06, 09:54 PM
Umm, Yes he is, Jeter's UZR from 2000-2003 was a -28. That is actually the worst in that time period.

http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html

Also, Jeter was one of the lucky ones to get rated this year by Lichtman (MGL) in supposively his "gold glove" year and was a -14.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/major_league_baseball_first_timers_highlight_al_gold_gloves/ (scroll down to post #39)

You can use whatever defensive metric you want, but Jeter isn't an average or above average shortstop by any means...
This is an example of stats being used poorly. I have been hearing for years that Jeter isn't the best this....the best that....... Jeter remains the best SS in the history of the franchise.
Here is a quote from a scout in Lindy's 2005 Baseball Scouting Report
"I don't understand why people don't think he's a good defensive player. He's athletic; he gets good jumps to either side. He has good hands, arm strength. If it's the 7th game of the World Series for the 27th out , he'd be the guy I'd choose to catch the ball."
There you go.....an argument for Jeter with no statistics to back it up. Jeter is a great SS, plain and simple. I certainly wouldn't accuse him of being "average or above average". Gold Gloves aside (If Palmeiro won a Gold Glove when he primarily played DH, Gold Gloves can't be used to judge a players effectiveness)...... 4 rings and being team Captain of the New York Yankees don't go to an "average" player. Jeter is the type of BASEBALL PLAYER that transcends statistical analysis.

keithf1
01-09-06, 09:58 PM
I'd like to keep Bernie out of the field if possible.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-09-06, 10:00 PM
I've been highly critical of Torre in the past, but we all said the same thing about Tino, and we were all wrong.

Yeah, I guess we will see, but if another corner outfielder or DH isn't signed, I can't see Torre going anywhere else...

JDPNYY
01-09-06, 10:04 PM
Yeah, I guess we will see, but if another corner outfielder or DH isn't signed, I can't see Torre going anywhere else...

Which is why Bubba Crosby can't spend the year a the back up outfielder.

I wouldn't mind if Cash waited for the right time to make a deal for a good candidate to play regularly at all three OF positions.

Sam18
01-09-06, 10:07 PM
...he gets good jumps to either side.

Um no he doesn't. That's why he's below average.

BJG
01-09-06, 10:15 PM
Um no he doesn't. That's why he's below average.

Iffy footwork and lots of trouble going to his left.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-09-06, 10:28 PM
This is an example of stats being used poorly. I have been hearing for years that Jeter isn't the best this....the best that....... Jeter remains the best SS in the history of the franchise.
Here is a quote from a scout in Lindy's 2005 Baseball Scouting Report
"I don't understand why people don't think he's a good defensive player. He's athletic; he gets good jumps to either side. He has good hands, arm strength. If it's the 7th game of the World Series for the 27th out , he'd be the guy I'd choose to catch the ball."
It's the blind leading the blind. You have been hearing it because Jeter isn't an average or an above average fielder, he's actually well below average. How are stats being used poorly? I am assuming you have no idea how UZR is accumulated.
Heres a start: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primate_studies/discussion/lichtman_2003-03-14_0/

Lindy obviously has a hard on for Jeter, just because he says Jeter is a good defensive player doesn't make it so, years of statistical evidence dictate otherwise.



There you go.....an argument for Jeter with no statistics to back it up. Jeter is a great SS, plain and simple. I certainly wouldn't accuse him of being "average or above average". Gold Gloves aside (If Palmeiro won a Gold Glove when he primarily played DH, Gold Gloves can't be used to judge a players effectiveness)...... 4 rings and being team Captain of the New York Yankees don't go to an "average" player. Jeter is the type of BASEBALL PLAYER that transcends statistical analysis.

Yeah thats the problem there is "no statistical evidence" to back up that Jeter is a good defensive player. Jeter is a good offensive player and seems like a swell guy, but his defense still isn't good. Yeah, 4 rings, blah blah blah, Jeter's God. Gold Gloves are the biggest joke award given out in baseball...

guidry36
01-09-06, 10:32 PM
Um no he doesn't. That's why he's below average.
Sue me.....that was from a scout, not me.....dissect Jeter to everyone's hearts' desire. Is he in the top 20 to 25 SS's in the game today?? Let me find my stat sheet...........;)
Look, just playing, but I am not about to be convinced Jeter is a below average SS. I don't understand where such a line of thought even begins. Is he a good player, or have I just fallen victim to a media conspiracy?? I thought I had seen him make play after play through the course of a remarkable career......I thought I had seen Jeter play like someone destined for the hall of fame. Of course this is an open forum....and there are many different opinions, but is it conceivable that there is more to the game than stats?? Perhaps.....just perhaps...... Jeter could sneak under the stat radar and become a great player. I'm just thankful he has less of a problem earning 4 rings than going to his left........................

Out of curiosity....were the stats of Brosius and O'Neill ripped to shreds when they were Yankees?? I imagine so, but they were legitimate champions......and Jeter will be a legitimate Hall of Fame player.

PaulieIsAwesome
01-09-06, 10:58 PM
Sue me.....that was from a scout, not me.....dissect Jeter to everyone's hearts' desire. Is he in the top 20 to 25 SS's in the game today?? Let me find my stat sheet...........;)
Look, just playing, but I am not about to be convinced Jeter is a below average SS. I don't understand where such a line of thought even begins. Is he a good player, or have I just fallen victim to a media conspiracy?? I thought I had seen him make play after play through the course of a remarkable career......I thought I had seen Jeter play like someone destined for the hall of fame. Of course this is an open forum....and there are many different opinions, but is it conceivable that there is more to the game than stats?? Perhaps.....just perhaps...... Jeter could sneak under the stat radar and become a great player. I'm just thankful he has less of a problem earning 4 rings than going to his left........................

Out of curiosity....were the stats of Brosius and O'Neill ripped to shreds when they were Yankees?? I imagine so, but they were legitimate champions......and Jeter will be a legitimate Hall of Fame player.

I'm going to have to assume you unintentionally misinterpreted the preceding posters, because I thought their points were obvious.

Jeter is a great shortstop. His offense is clearly in the top 4 SS's in baseball, and thanks to his plate discipline, might be the best in baseball. He is a bad defensive SS. All the numbers show this. Last year, BP has him as very good, but BP has screwy defense numbers sometimes. Chris Dial on BTF had him as the 15th best player in the AL, offense and defense combined, and as the 2nd best SS in the AL (and therefore the 2nd best SS in baseball.) RC has him as 16th best in the league, which is amazing for a SS (he's 4 runs behind Tejada.) VORP says similar things. By WS, he's 12th in the league and the best SS. By WARP, he's one of the top players in baseball, and right there with Peralta for best SS.

He is almost certainly a future HOF. However, he's not perfect, and it's not hating him to say that. He's bad up the middle, though he's gotten better thanks to A-Rod.

And again, you must have unintentionally misunderstood the posters here to believe they were calling DJ anything other than "a great player."

BW51
01-09-06, 11:38 PM
Bernie hasn't hit over .263 since 02', what makes you think he's gonna magically turn things around? He's a really, really bad hitter now.


i think what's scariest is like, where did it all go?

i realize he had the knee surgery in 2003 during the season, but still

i mean, the guy drove in 102 runs and hit .333 in 2002...then poof...gone

Sam18
01-09-06, 11:42 PM
i think what's scariest is like, where did it all go?

i realize he had the knee surgery in 2003 during the season, but still

i mean, the guy drove in 102 runs and hit .333 in 2002...then poof...gone

Its the knee injury. He was hitting like a madman before that injury.

guidry36
01-09-06, 11:47 PM
It's the blind leading the blind. You have been hearing it because Jeter isn't an average or an above average fielder, he's actually well below average. How are stats being used poorly? I am assuming you have no idea how UZR is accumulated.
Heres a start: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primate_studies/discussion/lichtman_2003-03-14_0/

Lindy obviously has a hard on for Jeter, just because he says Jeter is a good defensive player doesn't make it so, years of statistical evidence dictate otherwise.



Yeah thats the problem there is "no statistical evidence" to back up that Jeter is a good defensive player. Jeter is a good offensive player and seems like a swell guy, but his defense still isn't good. Yeah, 4 rings, blah blah blah, Jeter's God. Gold Gloves are the biggest joke award given out in baseball...
Perhaps I'm way off base here.......but can you see how, by reading these posts about how horrible Jeter is defensively, it would appear to be a suggestion that he isn't even fit to play SS for the Yankees?? To quote myself about the Gold Glove....from my post that you just responded to......"If Palmeiro won a Gold Glove when he primarily played DH, Gold Gloves can't be used to judge a players effectiveness". The point I am trying to make..... (Perhaps you are not arguing this point) is that Jeter is a Baseball Player who transcends mere statistical analysis. Maybe no one is arguing that point....maybe I took these posts the wrong way. Jeter is not God, but he is the best Yankee SS ever. I have lived, eaten, and breathed Yankee baseball since I was lucky enough to see Guidry, Reggie, Willie Randolph...... special players one and all....... Jeter is as good as I have seen in a Yankee uniform, not my favorite (that would be Mattingly)........ but there is more to the game than statistics.

PaulieIsAwesome
01-10-06, 12:01 AM
Perhaps I'm way off base here.......but can you see how, by reading these posts about how horrible Jeter is defensively, it would appear to be a suggestion that he isn't even fit to play SS for the Yankees?? To quote myself about the Gold Glove....from my post that you just responded to......"If Palmeiro won a Gold Glove when he primarily played DH, Gold Gloves can't be used to judge a players effectiveness". The point I am trying to make..... (Perhaps you are not arguing this point) is that Jeter is a Baseball Player who transcends mere statistical analysis. Maybe no one is arguing that point....maybe I took these posts the wrong way. Jeter is not God, but he is the best Yankee SS ever. I have lived, eaten, and breathed Yankee baseball since I was lucky enough to see Guidry, Reggie, Willie Randolph...... special players one and all....... Jeter is as good as I have seen in a Yankee uniform, not my favorite (that would be Mattingly)........ but there is more to the game than statistics.

I agree that Jeter is the best Yankee SS ever.

I disagree that Jeter is a baseball player who transcends mere statistics. Even if I've seen him do some really awesome things as a player, he's also screwed up sometimes.

Give me a theoretical or practical framework for determining which players "transcend mere statistical analysis." Does A-Rod? Bernie? Posada? Cano? Giambi? If so, why?

If you can answer that question, maybe I can understand what you're talking about. But I don't think you can, and your answer will be some derivative of "my eyes show me that he is," which makes no sense, because my eyes don't show me that.

guidry36
01-10-06, 12:03 AM
I'm going to have to assume you unintentionally misinterpreted the preceding posters, because I thought their points were obvious.

Jeter is a great shortstop. His offense is clearly in the top 4 SS's in baseball, and thanks to his plate discipline, might be the best in baseball. He is a bad defensive SS. All the numbers show this. Last year, BP has him as very good, but BP has screwy defense numbers sometimes. Chris Dial on BTF had him as the 15th best player in the AL, offense and defense combined, and as the 2nd best SS in the AL (and therefore the 2nd best SS in baseball.) RC has him as 16th best in the league, which is amazing for a SS (he's 4 runs behind Tejada.) VORP says similar things. By WS, he's 12th in the league and the best SS. By WARP, he's one of the top players in baseball, and right there with Peralta for best SS.

He is almost certainly a future HOF. However, he's not perfect, and it's not hating him to say that. He's bad up the middle, though he's gotten better thanks to A-Rod.
And again, you must have unintentionally misunderstood the posters here to believe they were calling DJ anything other than "a great player."

I may have misinterpreted some remarks....... I view Jeter the all around player as opposed to Jeter the SS. Of course, he is not perfect, and I wasn't trying to go overboard on a "don't hate Jeter" campaign. It's an open forum...... and everyone is entitled to their opinion. They don't even list the names of the scouts writing in Lindy's, but I share the opinion that, game 7 of the WS, 9th inning, 2 outs, I want Jeter to be the one catching the ball. He is a unique player.....and there are plays that he makes that don't show up in his stats. I am merely expressing my opinon in this forum......and, though I don't ignore stats, I am not blinded by them. There is more to baseball than stats. Thank you for your post..... once again, yes, I may have misinterpreted remarks.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-10-06, 12:13 AM
Perhaps I'm way off base here.......but can you see how, by reading these posts about how horrible Jeter is defensively, it would appear to be a suggestion that he isn't even fit to play SS for the Yankees?? To quote myself about the Gold Glove....from my post that you just responded to......"If Palmeiro won a Gold Glove when he primarily played DH, Gold Gloves can't be used to judge a players effectiveness". The point I am trying to make..... (Perhaps you are not arguing this point) is that Jeter is a Baseball Player who transcends mere statistical analysis. Maybe no one is arguing that point....maybe I took these posts the wrong way. Jeter is not God, but he is the best Yankee SS ever. I have lived, eaten, and breathed Yankee baseball since I was lucky enough to see Guidry, Reggie, Willie Randolph...... special players one and all....... Jeter is as good as I have seen in a Yankee uniform, not my favorite (that would be Mattingly)........ but there is more to the game than statistics.

I'm not saying Jeter isn't a good or "special" player, I love Jeter, as a Yankee and overall baseball fan, I do think he is a "special" player who has certain intangibles, but I am merely showing you that Jeter isn't a good defensive player by any means, you can take that as you wish...

guidry36
01-10-06, 12:17 AM
I agree that Jeter is the best Yankee SS ever.

I disagree that Jeter is a baseball player who transcends mere statistics. Even if I've seen him do some really awesome things as a player, he's also screwed up sometimes.

Give me a theoretical or practical framework for determining which players "transcend mere statistical analysis." Does A-Rod? Bernie? Posada? Cano? Giambi? If so, why?

If you can answer that question, maybe I can understand what you're talking about. But I don't think you can, and your answer will be some derivative of "my eyes show me that he is," which makes no sense, because my eyes don't show me that.

It's not just about the eyes......Bernie and Posada have had their moments in the past..... but, as you said, "Jeter is the best Yankee SS ever". As for Cano, A-Rod, and Giambi, I love all 3 of them, but to this point, they have not proven themselves on a championship level as Jeter, O'Neill, Brosius......etc. did. Given the history of the organization, being viewed as the best SS ever is an amazing accomplishment. He transcends stats because his contributions have not been limited to merely his bat, merely his glove...... it is his entire game.....including his love of the game. Jeter would have fit in on a Yankee team from any era. Mattingly, my favorite Yankee, was the same type of player. It isn't about the eyes, it isn't about the stats (though both of these are factors), it is the total package, the complete player. It is because Jeter is the one I want at the plate, or in the field, in a crucial situation...... and I will never see another Yankee SS like Jeter. As I have said, that is something that you can't find on a stat sheet.

Sam18
01-10-06, 12:19 AM
It's not just about the eyes......Bernie and Posada have had their moments in the past..... but, as you said, &quot;Jeter is the best Yankee SS ever&quot;. As for Cano, A-Rod, and Giambi, I love all 3 of them, but to this point, they have not proven themselves on a championship level as Jeter, O'Neill, Brosius......etc. did. Given the history of the organization, being viewed as the best SS ever is an amazing accomplishment. He transcends stats because his contributions have not been limited to merely his bat, merely his glove...... it is his entire game.....including his love of the game. Jeter would have fit in on a Yankee team from any era. Mattingly, my favorite Yankee, was the same type of player. It isn't about the eyes, it isn't about the stats (though both of these are factors), it is the total package, the complete player. It is because Jeter is the one I want at the plate, or in the field, in a crucial situation...... and I will never see another Yankee SS like Jeter. As I have said, that is something that you can't find on a stat sheet.

Wait, you judge players by how many rings they have?

guidry36
01-10-06, 12:21 AM
I'm not saying Jeter isn't a good or "special" player, I love Jeter, as a Yankee and overall baseball fan, I do think he is a "special" player who has certain intangibles, but I am merely showing you that Jeter isn't a good defensive player by any means, you can take that as you wish...

Sorry.....I misunderstood where you were coming from...... intangibles often get overlooked, and it was my improper assumption that they were being overlooked.

guidry36
01-10-06, 12:23 AM
Wait, you judge players by how many rings they have?
That is part of the equation.....as I said, Mattingly is my favorite Yankee..... no rings.....but he would have fit in on any Yankee team. Over time, the same argument could be made about A-Rod..... it is too early for that, in my opinion.

shcabot
01-10-06, 06:11 AM
I'm not saying Jeter isn't a good or "special" player, I love Jeter, as a Yankee and overall baseball fan, I do think he is a "special" player who has certain intangibles, but I am merely showing you that Jeter isn't a good defensive player by any means, you can take that as you wish...


I believe Jeter won the Gold Glove for the SS position the past two years. He didn't recieve those awards by chance. He definitely has a good amount of talent on the diamond defensively.

shcabot
01-10-06, 06:12 AM
But enough about Jeter.

Bub
01-10-06, 06:38 AM
Bernie should have learned to play first base a few years ago. It's too late for that now. He'll play a bunch of games in the outfield, perhaps as many as 30, and probably all in center and most on the road.

shcabot
01-10-06, 06:42 AM
I honestly don't think he will play that many games in center next year. We just signed Johnny Damon. It's Johnny's job now, and Bernie knows that. I hope Joe knows that too. Don't get me wrong: I love Bernie. But his time is over as the Yank's CF.

shcabot
01-10-06, 06:44 AM
He's going to have a DH/bench role.

BobbyMurcerFan
01-10-06, 07:56 AM
Bernie should have learned to play first base a few years ago. It's too late for that now. He'll play a bunch of games in the outfield, perhaps as many as 30, and probably all in center and most on the road.To be honest, Bernie never really became comfortable with the nuances of CF after playing the position for well over a decade... so I kind of doubt attempting to learn a NEW position would have helped him much a few years ago or now.

BobbyMurcerFan
01-10-06, 07:59 AM
I'm not saying Jeter isn't a good or "special" player, I love Jeter, as a Yankee and overall baseball fan, I do think he is a "special" player who has certain intangibles, but I am merely showing you that Jeter isn't a good defensive player by any means, you can take that as you wish...How about inaccurate? :D :P

justinvarnes
01-10-06, 08:38 AM
Bernie Playing a little 1B could come in handy, but if you look at the team, I don't see much reason to have Bernie play defense at all, unless it's some extra-inning/switcharoo deal.

Matsui and Damon will play about 155-160 games at LF and CF (barring injury, of course)

Sheff will be replaced by Bubba on occasion.

Giambi will be replaced by Phillips on occasion.

Everyone outside of Damon and Posada can be replaced by Cairo (which is why Cairo was a good singing).

The only time I could see Bernie in a defensive role is for Damon in Center on some rare afternoon he would need a day off. Damon is getting paid 4/52. Bernie is getting 1/2?? (forgot how much bernie is making actually) That adds up to Bernie not doing much but PH/DH.

PaulieIsAwesome
01-10-06, 09:41 AM
That is part of the equation.....as I said, Mattingly is my favorite Yankee..... no rings.....but he would have fit in on any Yankee team. Over time, the same argument could be made about A-Rod..... it is too early for that, in my opinion.

Umm, unless A-Rod had some huge desire to play right field in the 1920s, and said he wouldn't play anywhere else, and the Babe said the same thing, I think A-Rod would have fit in on any Yankee team.

shutout
01-10-06, 09:53 AM
Bernie should go to another position indeed: the bench. His defense is horrible, his offense is laughable... He was an important player in the past, a good, focused Yankee, but he isn't anymore. We must celebrate him because of what he meant for the Yankees in the past, but the Yankees organisation should look at what's best for the team. At this moment this means: Bernie on the bench.

I can imagin him having a good last season offensively: great players have got this tendency of being able to perform one last time great again, but that's it. On the other hand; I don't see it happening any time soon.

Kulish29
01-10-06, 10:16 AM
Would Bernie make a good YES commentator?

BronxBombers2005
01-10-06, 10:56 AM
Would Bernie make a good YES commentator?

Yes in my mind i think that Bernie will be a good YES commentator, if that is what he desides to do....but we know for sure that he does want to stick around the organization after he gets done playing.
But as far as him playing CF, i think he knows his time is pretty much done there, he had so many great years and plays, and know he will let someone else take over. Bernie wants to be a winner and he will do what ever it takes to be that, and he will except his job of comming off the bench or being the DH.

BigBats
01-10-06, 12:06 PM
Yes, he needs a position change; "Benchwarmer" suits him well.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-10-06, 12:11 PM
I believe Jeter won the Gold Glove for the SS position the past two years. He didn't recieve those awards by chance. He definitely has a good amount of talent on the diamond defensively.

No he didn't, to quote MGL because it really sums up Gold Gloves,

Unless you see all of the players almost every day and you are skilled at "defensive observation" there is simply no way of having any clue who is the best at any defensive position. Plus there really are no "stats" to look at to help you in your decision.


The people voting have no idea what they are doing and the very idea that they actually do, is insane...

27IsNext
01-10-06, 12:34 PM
Yeah, I guess we will see, but if another corner outfielder or DH isn't signed, I can't see Torre going anywhere else...

If this happens, I can almost garuntee you Cashman will DEMAND Phillips gets regular at-bats.

BronxBombers2005
01-10-06, 01:57 PM
If this happens, I can almost garuntee you Cashman will DEMAND Phillips gets regular at-bats.

I strongly agree with that.

But who knows, maybe Bernie will do good as a DH. He wont have to worry about playing the OF, which will take a lot off him. But hey you never know.

Bub
01-10-06, 02:16 PM
I strongly agree with that.

But who knows, maybe Bernie will do good as a DH. He wont have to worry about playing the OF, which will take a lot off him. But hey you never know.I would not at all be surprised if Bernie has a great offensive year. Playing defense, especially center, takes a lot out of a player his age.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 02:24 PM
In my opinion, a solid enough DH was Chili Davis and this is what he gave us in 1999:

in 146 gms, 476 ab's, 19 HR, 78 RBI, 59 R, 128 Hits, 25 2B, .366 obp,.269 avg.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/historical/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=113099

does anyone really believe that bernie can at the least match that?

lookine at his 2005 stats there is no way in my mind he can match that OBP or Slugging(which are the only 2 stats of the ones posted there that I care about)

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 02:28 PM
Player A: Has given this team damn near 15 years of service and was directly responsible for pompous individuals like yourself being recent fans of this team due to his offensive and defensive contributions.

Player B: Irrespective of his OBP/OPS is one of the worst FA signings this team has made. He has forced this team to deal with his need for personal trainers, steroids, crappy defense and his poor 1B/DH offensive splits.


Bernie's measley 1.5mill and 200 at-bats isn't going to make or break this team. Worry about the defensively poor 20mill man at 1B who just can't get himself to focus while in the DH spot forcing the Yankees to once again work around him.

You shouldnt really be calling anybody pompous with a post like that. Either way this is 2006 not 5 years ago. I care about now and ap layer should not get a spot on this team because of the past or his name. If he isnt good enough(which he isnt) he shouldnt be on the team. Giambi is a great offensive player and OBP/OPS are 2 of the best convential stats out there. His defense is below average but he more than makes up for it with his great hitting.

ShaneTravis
01-10-06, 02:29 PM
I would not at all be surprised if Bernie has a great offensive year. Playing defense, especially center, takes a lot out of a player his age.

Cherry picking but here is Bernie 2005 as a DH---85 at-bats

Obp .362
Slg .459
Avg .294

Maybe if they limit him to Righties he can put those numbers up.....I am praying he puts those up. lol

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 02:31 PM
Considering that any ball directly over his head or to the right of him is a double, I would consider that position quite important. As far as him being the 2nd best hitter on the team, I don't believe that opposing pitchers share your view these days.

He saved our 2006, and he is best OBP guy outside of Bonds and OBP is one of the most important non saber stats. He gets on base and he hits for power.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 02:33 PM
Where was this cockiness during the 1st half of the 2005 season? Where was it during the entire 2004 season?

so your taking one and a half seasons out of his whole career where he was obviously physically ill and counting that more than his whole career? BEST LOGIC EVER!!!!!

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 02:34 PM
Bernie should be in the D.H. slot without a doubt. He may not have the legs to cover centerfield anymore, but he is still a .270 to .280 hitter. Bernie has delivered in the clutch for the Yankees many times and he's the best choice on the roster to take that spot in the lineup, except when Sheffield, Matsui, or even Giambi needs a day off.

he is not still a .270 to .280 hitter

CTyankeefan
01-10-06, 02:38 PM
Looking at the current 25 man roster, I am struck by how inflexible it remains. Andy Phillips and Cairo aren't great options away from their primary positions (1B and 2B) and our only good defensive outfielder, Bubba, can't hit much.

Short of going out and signing someone like Jeff DaVanon, Terrence Long or Richard Hidalgo, the Yankees need to do something about their depth.

To me the most obvious solution might be asking old man Bernie to learn another position. His range in center was very poor last year and his arm was even worse. Perhaps we should approach him to learn left field. He wouldn't start there with any regularity but Matsui will probably need some time at DH and having someone other than Bubba as an option off the bench becomes quite necessary.
When one considers that guys like Manny and Bonds will be starting 150 games in left field next season, Bernie doesn't look that terrible. His arm will cease to be a major liability and his range, while awful for a CF, may be passable for a LF.

I still think it is vitally necessary to give Sheff as much time at DH as possible but the current lineup construction doesn't really provide for that.

Perhaps the system could be:


Bernie spends 100 games at DH and 10 games in left while being the primary pinch-hitter.
Matsui plays 150 games in left with 10 games at DH.
Sheffield plays 125 games in right with 35 games at DH.
Giambi plays 140 games at 1st base with 20 games at DH.



If you are an outfielder, you dont' have to learn how to play left field. Bernie can be a backup at left and center. Bubba can play all 3.

SINCE77 2
01-10-06, 02:57 PM
so your taking one and a half seasons out of his whole career where he was obviously physically ill and counting that more than his whole career? BEST LOGIC EVER!!!!!


Of course its much more logical to disregard a players meteoric rise due to steroids than it is to look at the truth. Without steroids would Giambi ever have been a Yankee much less the 2000 MVP? Would we be having this discussion? Can you identify a season in his career when he was way above average and clean? Until you can do these things you really need to reassess the player that you are defending.

BJG
01-10-06, 03:25 PM
Can you identify a season in his career when he was way above average and clean?

In 2005, 1B hit .275/.357/.471. Giambi hit .271/.440/.535. 83 points of OBP and 64 points of SLG in a pitcher's park is way, way above average.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 03:26 PM
Of course its much more logical to disregard a players meteoric rise due to steroids than it is to look at the truth. Without steroids would Giambi ever have been a Yankee much less the 2000 MVP? Would we be having this discussion? Can you identify a season in his career when he was way above average and clean? Until you can do these things you really need to reassess the player that you are defending.

2005 for one. He proved last season he can still be a great hitter without steroids. Dont say he wasnt way above average either because a .975 OPS is way above average. His numbers before being ill from steroids were great and his numbers after recovering from his ilness and being off steroids(while not takeing steroids) are still great, so i dont see why there is any reason to doubt his hitting ability for 2006.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 03:27 PM
In 2005, 1B hit .275/.357/.471. Giambi hit .271/.440/.535. 83 points of OBP and 64 points of SLG in a pitcher's park is way, way above average.

I agree with the sentiment that Giambi rules but there is no way in hell Yankee stadium is a pitcher's park, especially for Giambi who is a lefty.

slickknick
01-10-06, 04:04 PM
Bernie will be PH not DH. I would rather let Phillips get a shot at the everyday first base spot.

YankeePride1967
01-10-06, 04:06 PM
If Cashman could find any GM stupid enough to even consider trading for him Giambi would be gone in a NY minute. Best thing is that barring some spectacular "Yankee WS moment" Giambi's tenure with the Bombers will disappear into obscurity.

Derek Jeter is also untradable due to his absurd contract.

BJG
01-10-06, 04:17 PM
I agree with the sentiment that Giambi rules but there is no way in hell Yankee stadium is a pitcher's park, especially for Giambi who is a lefty.

It increases HR, but it decreases everything else. It's a pitcher's park.

BJG
01-10-06, 04:19 PM
If you are an outfielder, you dont' have to learn how to play left field. Bernie can be a backup at left and center. Bubba can play all 3.

Any inning that Bubba plays in the OF in which he is not a defensive replacement is a bad thing. He didn't have the bat to carry center by a wide margin. If he starts game in LF or RF, his defense matters less and his bat is even worse.

guidry36
01-10-06, 04:29 PM
Umm, unless A-Rod had some huge desire to play right field in the 1920s, and said he wouldn't play anywhere else, and the Babe said the same thing, I think A-Rod would have fit in on any Yankee team.

True, but it takes more than 2 seasons in pinstripes to fit the profile I was posting about. ;)

BronxBombers2005
01-10-06, 06:20 PM
Cherry picking but here is Bernie 2005 as a DH---85 at-bats

Obp .362
Slg .459
Avg .294

Maybe if they limit him to Righties he can put those numbers up.....I am praying he puts those up. lol

Man those numbers would be good, lets pray.

Big Jon Empire
01-10-06, 07:32 PM
The last few years of stats would suggest that Bernie shouldn't get many at-bats at DH or any other position but that doesn't mean he won't. Joe Torre, if we can judge him by his past actions, respects Bernie Williams too much not to give him as many at-bats as possible. It also isn't totally off the wall to suggest that playing primarily DH would keep Bernie's legs fresher and his knee less stressed thus allowing him to drive off of it better than he's been able to lately.

You guys who called Jeter selfish better not be the same ones calling for Sheffield to move from right to DH. He'll never agree to do such a thing and in his mind A-Rod is the second best hitter on the team. Jeter has never been asked to move. If Joe Torre asked him to move he would. Joe Torre won't ask. The same traits we love in Joe Torre are the same ones that keep him from moving Jeter and taking at-bats from Bernie to give to Bubba Crosby.

The guy you guys seem to want the Yankees to sign or trade for to be the forth outfielder is already with the yankees. Its Kevin Thompson. He can play all over the outfield and he can hit better than Crosby anyway.

SINCE77 2
01-10-06, 08:55 PM
2005 for one. He proved last season he can still be a great hitter without steroids. Dont say he wasnt way above average either because a .975 OPS is way above average. His numbers before being ill from steroids were great and his numbers after recovering from his ilness and being off steroids(while not takeing steroids) are still great, so i dont see why there is any reason to doubt his hitting ability for 2006.


I want him batting 3rd for 2006, not because I think he the best/2nd best hitter on the team, but simply because he can walk his ass off and has no problem taking one for the team (19HBP). I still loathe the signing, but the Yankees can only be better if he plays to his abilities and in the scheme of things, thats all that matters.

BW51
01-10-06, 08:59 PM
It increases HR, but it decreases everything else. It's a pitcher's park.


true, but then if one of the arguments is giambi's slugging was higher than average, you'd then have to say that the increased hr's because of yankee stadium had something to do with that


and, by the way, he had a higher OBP, SLG, and Batting Average at Yankee Stadium this year, although equal road and home home runs

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=114739&statType=1

guidry36
01-10-06, 09:05 PM
The last few years of stats would suggest that Bernie shouldn't get many at-bats at DH or any other position but that doesn't mean he won't. Joe Torre, if we can judge him by his past actions, respects Bernie Williams too much not to give him as many at-bats as possible. It also isn't totally off the wall to suggest that playing primarily DH would keep Bernie's legs fresher and his knee less stressed thus allowing him to drive off of it better than he's been able to lately.

You guys who called Jeter selfish better not be the same ones calling for Sheffield to move from right to DH. He'll never agree to do such a thing and in his mind A-Rod is the second best hitter on the team. Jeter has never been asked to move. If Joe Torre asked him to move he would. Joe Torre won't ask. The same traits we love in Joe Torre are the same ones that keep him from moving Jeter and taking at-bats from Bernie to give to Bubba Crosby.

The guy you guys seem to want the Yankees to sign or trade for to be the forth outfielder is already with the yankees. Its Kevin Thompson. He can play all over the outfield and he can hit better than Crosby anyway.
Despite having little experience above AA, Thompson is 26 and would deserve a shot if he has a big ST. Thompson's 43 steals and 45 doubles in 2005 should be noted. It would be good to carry Crosby and Thompson as reserve OF, but that would require carrying 11 pitchers instead of 12. Many posters on this site would prefer 11 pitchers, as I do, but there has been speculation 12 will be carried.....partly because Myers is primarily a 1-batter reliever.

JJazz
01-10-06, 09:22 PM
If this happens, I can almost garuntee you Cashman will DEMAND Phillips gets regular at-bats.

When was the last time Cashman told Joe how often to play somebody?

The closest Cash has gotten to being involved was maybe when Cano came up and TWo moved to the OF. And there was nothing about that move that involved pushing Torre around.

Baseball is pretty clear on some of the ground rules. Managers manage. The front office's remedy is to fire the guy if he can't get results. But they can't tell him how to manage.

BJG
01-10-06, 10:03 PM
true, but then if one of the arguments is giambi's slugging was higher than average, you'd then have to say that the increased hr's because of yankee stadium had something to do with that

Not really. If YS decreases singles, doubles, and triples but increases HR, then that doesn't mean Giambi's SLG should be higher because of YS.


and, by the way, he had a higher OBP, SLG, and Batting Average at Yankee Stadium this year, although equal road and home home runs

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=114739&statType=1

Giambi also hit better on the road in 2004 and 2003. This is why park factors tend to measure multiple years. As it is, a lot of players get a bump hitting at home as they are used to the batter's eye, etc. What you are trying to measure with park factors go beyond that. The bigger question is, what would he have done at home if YS were a better hitter's park, as he doesn't have some kind of repeatable ability to hit better at YS.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-10-06, 11:04 PM
If this happens, I can almost garuntee you Cashman will DEMAND Phillips gets regular at-bats.

Cashman can yell and moan all he wants but Torre is going to do whatever he sees fit for the team. The GM signs the players, managers direct the players, especially such an esteemed one as Torre...

BobbyMurcerFan
01-11-06, 10:27 PM
Not really. If YS decreases singles, doubles, and triples but increases HR, then that doesn't mean Giambi's SLG should be higher because of YS...But I doubt that's the case. YS' large CF and gaps should increase linedrive hits, not decrease them.

BJG
01-11-06, 10:29 PM
But I doubt that's the case. YS' large CF and gaps should increase linedrive hits, not decrease them.

But that's not the reailty. The park factors for singles, doubles, and triples are all below average.

JamieMadrox
01-13-06, 04:53 PM
But I doubt that's the case. YS' large CF and gaps should increase linedrive hits, not decrease them.

you doubt it so it must not be true :)

check the park factor stats.

Quangormo
01-19-06, 10:13 AM
I like the idea of trying Bernie in LF. He could do decently there, and if need be, Matsui could play RF and Sheff could DH. (I prefer Sheff's arm in RF, but he may need to DH.)

Vin
01-19-06, 09:20 PM
The best position for Bernie is retirement.