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SODM
01-06-06, 08:48 PM
I don't think I have ever come across a greater injustice in a court of law.

An ADMITTED CHILD RAPIST was handed a 60 day jail sentence in Vermont for raping a 7 year old girl over the span of four years because the judge " Doesn't believe in the punishment" :mad:

I hope this man is immediately removed from the bench and assraped for his stupidity.



Rapist's Prison Sentence Triggers Outrage

There was outrage Wednesday when a Vermont judge handed out a 60-day jail sentence to a man who raped a little girl many,many times over a four-year span starting when she was seven.

The judge said he no longer believes in punishment and is more concerned about rehabilitation. ..................................

............................................"The one message I want to get through is that anger doesn't solve anything. It just corrodes your soul," said Judge Edward Cashman speaking to a packed Burlington courtroom. Most of the on-lookers were related to a young girl who was repeatedly raped by Mark Hulett who was in court to be sentenced. .............................

..................................."I discovered it accomplishes nothing of value;it doesn't make anything better;it costs us a lot of money; we create a lot of expectation, and we feed on anger,"Cashman explained to the people in the court.

The sentence outraged the victim's family who asked not to be identified.

"I don't like it," the victim's mother,in tears, told Channel 3. "He should pay for what he did to my baby and stop it here. She's not even home with me and he can be home for all this time, and do what he did in my house," she added.

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=4319605&nav=4QcT

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :-po'd-: :-po'd-: :-po'd-: :-po'd-: :-po'd-: :-po'd-: :-po'd-: :-po'd-: :-po'd-: :-po'd-:

Archer1979
01-06-06, 08:52 PM
If that were my daughter, that scumbag would be safer in jail.

SODM
01-06-06, 08:53 PM
If that were my daughter, that scumbag would be safer in jail.

Which of the two scumbags in this case are you referring to?

Archer1979
01-06-06, 08:59 PM
Which of the two scumbags are you referring to?

The one that will be walking free.

Remember that Hill Street Blues episode where some dirtbag killed a nun? They arrested the guy, had very little evidence but didn't want to let him go. In the meantime, the neighborhood found out there was an arrest and gathered, with bloodlust, on the front steps of the precinct.

Furillo got a full confession when they threatened to release him and told him he was free to walk out... into the hands of the angry mob.

SODM
01-06-06, 09:03 PM
The one that will be walking free.

Remember that Hill Street Blues episode where some dirtbag killed a nun? They arrested the guy, had very little evidence but didn't want to let him go. In the meantime, the neighborhood found out there was an arrest and gathered, with bloodlust, on the front steps of the precinct.

Furillo got a full confession when they threatened to release him and told him he was free to walk out... into the hands of the angry mob.

No I guess I missed that one. :)

If the little girl's dad beat the piss out of this guy I wonder what the judge would sentence him to.

StaceyRosie
01-06-06, 09:09 PM
The one that will be walking free.

Remember that Hill Street Blues episode where some dirtbag killed a nun? They arrested the guy, had very little evidence but didn't want to let him go. In the meantime, the neighborhood found out there was an arrest and gathered, with bloodlust, on the front steps of the precinct.

Furillo got a full confession when they threatened to release him and told him he was free to walk out... into the hands of the angry mob.

What's Hill Street Blues?

kidding

I want to kill both of them with my bare hands. That judge should be raped over a span of four years and see if he doesn't believe in punishment then. Asshat.

YankyDave
01-06-06, 09:22 PM
Give Vermont to Canada, now.

SODM
01-06-06, 09:26 PM
What's also really troubling is that this story has gotten no national coverage by the major media whatsoever.
Is this not newsworthy?

A friend of mine sent me the link to Michelle Malkin's website because she had written about it.

Does anyone know if this has been covered at all on any major news broadcast?

gdn
01-06-06, 09:39 PM
I'm not surprised. Also, I'm sure there is more to it than just a flat 60 day sentence; probation, special parole, etc.

Not that he did the right thing (actually, if it's within statutory limits, it's not an illegal sentence), but there are more and more judges across the country who are doing this because of the lack of any direction in jails and correctional systems in the country.

Again, I'm not condoning what the child rapist did.

gdn
01-06-06, 09:40 PM
Aha.. I knew it!

The full story:

But Judge Cashman explained that he is more concerned that Hulett receive sex offender treatment as rehabilitation. But under Department of Corrections classification, Hulett is considered a low-risk for re-offense so he does not qualify for in-prison treatment.So the judge sentenced him to just 60 days in prison and then Hulett must complete sex treatment when he gets out or face a possible life sentence.

I don't know VT statutes, but I'm willing to bet that if he imposed a significantly longer sentence, there would have been no medical help/treatment/psychological counseling available to the man.

StaceyRosie
01-06-06, 09:41 PM
The judge's name is Cashman!!?!?!?

Archer1979
01-06-06, 09:43 PM
The judge's name is Cashman!!?!?!?

Dooley's going to orgasm over this one...

Luvtino
01-06-06, 09:43 PM
If that were my daughter, that scumbag would be safer in jail.

Exactly. And a little street justice is probably what is in store for this scum. Good.

I bet the judge would feel differently if it were his daughter, niece, etc.

Luvtino
01-06-06, 09:48 PM
I don't think I have ever come across a greater injustice in a court of law.



I think it is frightening that in the state of VT a 60 day sentence is even allowable by law in this instance. Awful. In reading the article I see that the prosecution was looking for eight to twenty years. The prosecutor also told the judge that while he (the judge) might not agree with the punishment that the state does. My guess is they win on appeal. One can only hope. s.

I looked for the story on cnn.com and didn't see it. Have you thought of fowarding it to a few big newschannels and getting the word out there?! Couldn't hurt any.

That man needs to be off the streets. I fear for the children. :(

DontHateOnNumber2
01-07-06, 12:35 AM
I hope that guy doesn't make it past the third day without getting a taste of his medicine. What a bastard. :-po'd-:

Stupid Flanders
01-07-06, 03:31 AM
Hey, a guy I know got a MUCH stiffer sentence for his frist DUI for being .01 over the legal limit

Good job with your liberal judges everyone

shutout
01-07-06, 04:25 AM
I guess everyone just didn't read what gdn posted. Anyway: Of course I do not agree agree with this low sentence - however, the judge is making a very good point: so-called (revenge) punishment isn't working. It's useless. Actually: lots of 'criminals' get into jail being somewhat of an "amateur-criminal" and get out of jail full professionals. It's common knowledge that prisons are something like "university for criminals".

Besides that, the 'punishing' doesn't do any good. The dude comes out of jail and will probably do the exact same thing, because he isn't treated for it. The judge said it's better for the community as a whole, that this man gets treated for this.

yankeebot
01-07-06, 05:05 AM
This is a travesty. And the arguement that he needs treatment, not incarceration does not float with me. The experts are split as to whether pedophiles can ever be rehabilitated at all. If he had raped an adult repeatedly over 4 years would the sentence be this light? I doubt it.

What sickens me as much as the judges ruling is that the legislative bodies in the state of Vermont would allow this type of sentencing. I bet they give harsher sentences to drug users. Rape should have a mandatory sentence.

SODM
01-07-06, 09:30 AM
I looked for the story on cnn.com and didn't see it. Have you thought of fowarding it to a few big newschannels and getting the word out there?! Couldn't hurt any.

That man needs to be off the streets. I fear for the children. :(

After speaking with a couple of co-workers about this story, they informed me that this story was covered on last night's Hannity & Colmes program.

They had on a legislator from Vermont who said the state is now pushing through a bill which will mandate a 25 year sentence for the rape of a child of less than 12 years old. My co-worker also told me that Hannity supported the legislation but was chastizing the congressman for not taking steps to impeach the judge.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 09:36 AM
There was a case in Mass. in which a two time sex offender (who was unregistered) raped 3 girls under the age of 15 within a 3 month span and only got 7 years. True this pales in comparison, but there are some serious flaws in our legal system

gdn
01-07-06, 09:40 AM
After speaking with a couple of co-workers about this story, they informed me that this story was covered on last night's Hannity & Colmes program.

They had on a legislator from Vermont who said the state is now pushing through a bill which will mandate a 25 year sentence for the rape of a child of less than 12 years old. My co-worker also told me that Hannity supported the legislation but was chastizing the congressman for not taking steps to impeach the judge.Yes, let's go and impeach every judge that doesn't give a sentence that pleases us. Who cares about the impartial judiciary right?

If you want to "impeach" anyone here, it should be the legislators who permitted such a statute to remain on the books.

SODM
01-07-06, 09:54 AM
I guess everyone just didn't read what gdn posted. Anyway: Of course I do not agree agree with this low sentence - however, the judge is making a very good point: so-called (revenge) punishment isn't working. It's useless. Actually: lots of 'criminals' get into jail being somewhat of an "amateur-criminal" and get out of jail full professionals. It's common knowledge that prisons are something like "university for criminals".

Besides that, the 'punishing' doesn't do any good. The dude comes out of jail and will probably do the exact same thing, because he isn't treated for it. The judge said it's better for the community as a whole, that this man gets treated for this.

You disagree that crimes should warrant punishment?
That's ridiculous.

This judge overstepped his powers and violated the public trust by not sentencing this monster to a sentence consistent with the crime.
As a result the legislature is forced to pass minimum sentencing laws which make the courts weaker.
Nice going.

gdn
01-07-06, 09:59 AM
You disagree that crimes sould warrant punishment?
That's ridiculous.

This judge overstepped his powers and violated the public trust by not sentencing this monster to a sentence consistent with the crime.
As a result the legislature is forced to pass minimum sentencing laws which make the courts weaker.
Nice going.Did anyone say that? Show me a post where someone said crimes shouldn't warrant punishment. Obviously they should.

You're wrong on the count that the judge overstepped his powers. His powers are to sentence an individual within statutory guidelines/limits. Apparently he did. So he did nothing wrong. You may feel that the sentence is too light - and it may be - but he didn't do anything illegal/unconstitutional/in violation of a statute.

Min-man sentences are an odd beast. Here, in CT, we have min-man sentences, but they don't mean anything for parole purposes. Also, I'm pretty darn sure VT has min-man sentences, but not for this crime. It makes the judiciary weaker only in that there is no leverage to apply sentences on an individual level and to accomodate for each person based on the specific facts and circumstances of that case. Which is clearly what the judge did here. Yet you're bashing him.

Big_E
01-07-06, 10:03 AM
What's also really troubling is that this story has gotten no national coverage by the major media whatsoever.
Is this not newsworthy?

A friend of mine sent me the link to Michelle Malkin's website because she had written about it.

Does anyone know if this has been covered at all on any major news broadcast?
It's a local case. Why should it be national news? What makes it a national case? Because someone found it on the internet? Should every crime be reported in every newspaper?

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 10:25 AM
It's a local case. Why should it be national news? What makes it a national case? Because someone found it on the internet? Should every crime be reported in every newspaper?

Cause in 60 days theres going to be a child predator walking around, who probably won't register as a sex offender, gotta warn the public

YankeePride1967
01-07-06, 10:28 AM
Aha.. I knew it!

The full story:


I don't know VT statutes, but I'm willing to bet that if he imposed a significantly longer sentence, there would have been no medical help/treatment/psychological counseling available to the man.

I guess we better hope the man is cured in the next two months then. I think this is a dumb law. 60 days for a crime that is just shy of murder on the severity list, is absurd for raping anyone, but a 7 year old? Put him in jail for 25 years and give him the counseling in jail. That law needs to be changed. Treatment AND punishment are equally important.

Trish
01-07-06, 10:34 AM
This is a travesty. And the arguement that he needs treatment, not incarceration does not float with me. The experts are split as to whether pedophiles can ever be rehabilitated at all. If he had raped an adult repeatedly over 4 years would the sentence be this light? I doubt it.

What sickens me as much as the judges ruling is that the legislative bodies in the state of Vermont would allow this type of sentencing. I bet they give harsher sentences to drug users. Rape should have a mandatory sentence.
Exactly. He should be treated, definitely, for the rest of his life. Which, in my opinion, should be spent behind bars.

hobokenfish
01-07-06, 10:38 AM
You're wrong on the count that the judge overstepped his powers. His powers are to sentence an individual within statutory guidelines/limits. Apparently he did. So he did nothing wrong. You may feel that the sentence is too light - and it may be - but he didn't do anything illegal/unconstitutional/in violation of a statute.

Have to agree with you. 60 days seems extremely light, but apparently it was within the judge's discretion. It's up to the legislature to "fix" this. Another thing probably working in the background here is the crowded prison system. We are sending more and more people to prison, without adequate space. And nobody wants to spend more money on the penal system. So judges in some jurisdictions are trying to think of creative ways to keep people out of prison if they are not a danger to society (admittedly, a dude who rapes kids seems fairly dangerous, but I don't know all the facts).

Bub
01-07-06, 10:38 AM
............"I discovered it accomplishes nothing of value;it doesn't make anything better;it costs us a lot of money; we create a lot of expectation, and we feed on anger,"Cashman explained to the people in the court. While some of this may be true, anyone who would do this must be removed from society at least until such time as the mental changes necessary to prevent a re-occurance are made. The prime goal is to keep this man separate from everyone else - the money, the anger, the expectations etc. cannot be given any amount of value in his decision.

Mystic Merlyn
01-07-06, 10:39 AM
The scary part is this ruling is legal it seems.

yeahimweird
01-07-06, 10:41 AM
Disgusting.

MassNYYfan
01-07-06, 10:52 AM
I'd drive up there and whip his ass myself, but I'd end up with 200x the jail time. :mad:

Big_E
01-07-06, 11:08 AM
Cause in 60 days theres going to be a child predator walking around, who probably won't register as a sex offender, gotta warn the public

And should it be national news when any sex offender gets out of prison? Should people in Missoula be warned that someone in Vermont is out of jail?

JJazz
01-07-06, 11:24 AM
While some of this may be true, anyone who would do this must be removed from society at least until such time as the mental changes necessary to prevent a re-occurance are made. The prime goal is to keep this man separate from everyone else - the money, the anger, the expectations etc. cannot be given any amount of value in his decision.

The court had two choices: (a) put this man in jail with no treatment or (b) set him free but require treatment. The court seems to have wanted (c) put him in jail AND require treatment. But (c) isn't an option under the statute.

The problem is not that the court chose (a) or (b). The problem is the law that doesn't give option (c).

The judge in this case seems to have gone with (b) to hilight the lack of choice (c).

Ultimately, the legislature is to blame here. It's a bad law. There should be a minimum and the court should be able to require treatment in prison.

Bub
01-07-06, 11:27 AM
The court had two choices: (a) put this man in jail with no treatment or (b) set him free but require treatment. The court seems to have wanted (c) put him in jail AND require treatment. But (c) isn't an option under the statute.

The problem is not that the court chose (a) or (b). The problem is the law that doesn't give option (c).

The judge in this case seems to have gone with (b) to hilight the lack of choice (c).

Ultimately, the legislature is to blame here. It's a bad law. There should be a minimum and the court should be able to require treatment in prison.Was 60 days the maximum for choice A?

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 11:37 AM
And should it be national news when any sex offender gets out of prison? Should people in Missoula be warned that someone in Vermont is out of jail?

Im sure when most sex offenders serve 5 or 10 years in prison, they really dont want to go back and will register most of the time. Why does this dude care? He got a slap on the wrist for raping a 7 year old girl. Whats the judge going to do if he doesn't register, give him a stern warning? If this had been a priest who had done this same thing and got the same sentence, you think it would be National News?

BronxBaumer
01-07-06, 11:48 AM
Im sure when most sex offenders serve 5 or 10 years in prison, they really dont want to go back and will register most of the time. Why does this dude care? He got a slap on the wrist for raping a 7 year old girl. Whats the judge going to do if he doesn't register, give him a stern warning? If this had been a priest who had done this same thing and got the same sentence, you think it would be National News?

Isn't he going directly to rehabilitation after prison?

NYYBombshell
01-07-06, 11:57 AM
If that little girl was in my family, I would go looking for the guy with a baseball bat and a sawed-off shotgun.

I don't know who the bigger waste of skin and oxygen is, the pedophile or the douchebag judge.

NYYBombshell
01-07-06, 12:00 PM
I hope that guy doesn't make it past the third day without getting a taste of his medicine. What a bastard. :-po'd-:


Child molestors and child murderers are very low on the totem pole in prisons. Even hardened murderers doing life look at these people like they're lower than pond scum. My guess is if they put that guy in gen pop, he won't last long without Bubba coming in his cell for a howdy.

ruthianblast
01-07-06, 12:27 PM
While the crime is disgusting, the man is disgusting, the judge probably did the right thing. Many experts are divided on whether treatment and rehabilitation is enough to keep a sex offender from re-offending. One of the reasons is the lack of data; for the most part, rapists and pedophiles with repeated offenses are given 15-life, with chance of parole at 20 usually minus good behavior rules which depend on the state; so basically for most areas call it the guy serves 13 years then is given probabtionary release and required registration. By this time the offender's sense of injustice towards themselves, the indignity of prison, the indignity of the treatment he will receive in the new community will drive the offender insane, I don't have the data for recidivism for released pedophiles in front of me, and due to work and World of Warcraft I'm really not going to research it, but I would assume that the offender would not feel guilt, but anger at being ostracized and demonized for his actions.

Each person of course has their own opinions of course, and the knee-jerk reaction is probably to say that he deserves to be demonized/ostracized for his actions; but that is not what's best for the offender nor the community. Knee-jerk emotional responses to even the most heinous of crimes down to the most inconsequential crime is never good, that is why judges are supposed to have an impartial power away from the common people.

With research and professionals and academics given unrestricted access to people such as this offender we as a collective can help come to a better understanding of the causes of the behavior and identifying the warning signs to prevent actions such as this quicker and more effectively.

NYYBombshell
01-07-06, 12:33 PM
By this time the offender's sense of injustice towards themselves, the indignity of prison, the indignity of the treatment he will receive in the new community will drive the offender insane

Good. You rape a little girl or boy, you get what you deserve.


I don't have the data for recidivism for released pedophiles in front of me, and due to work and World of Warcraft I'm really not going to research it


It's very, very high.

ruthianblast
01-07-06, 12:46 PM
Good. You rape a little girl or boy, you get what you deserve.

Not necessarily, what does a sick person deserve? Do we as a populace know without any doubt that pedophilia is not a disease? No. No person would ever admit that without any doubt pedophilia is not a sickness. It may be, but we don't really know. Does a person with the IQ of 50 deserve to be placed on death row for killing someone? What of the same person rapes a child? Is your reaction the same, the crime is the same, both the lower IQ person as well as the pedophiliac have a debilitating condition that to this point we can't help with. So what's the answer, do we forgive the lower IQ'd person and kill the pedophile? Isn't that a little hypocritical of us without knowing without a reasonable doubt that pedophilia is not a disease that it is a reasoned crime equal to that of pre-meditated murder?


It's very, very high.

That would be my assumption as well, therefore based on that assumption until someone is willing or able to prove that assumption differently wouldn't you agree that prison is not working for pedophiles? Shouldn't we try something else? If the man goes to prison for 15 years gets out and rapes 8 more children is that better than putting him in for 60, and him getting out and attempting to help him never do it again? With the 60 day penalty after he gets out he will be in counciling for a long time, at the judges discretion possibly for the rest of his life. With that supervision and observation maybe we are able to learn something about the causes, and if he attempts to rape again maybe he only gets 1 and then is thrown in jail for life.

Which is the best scenario? High recidivism until proven differently with lower control and possibly longer period until rediscovery or higher controls, perhaps the same recidivism but with a greater chance of discovery at earlier stages?

patrick.o
01-07-06, 01:37 PM
The outrage here is understandable, but the fact of the matter is that prison doesn't work. It's a nice bit of comfort to victims and the public at large, but any first year psych major can tell you that there is conclusive evidence that punishment is the least effective means of altering behavior. Smack a kid every time you catch him with his hand in the cookie jar and he's not going to want cookies any less, he's just going to learn that he needs to figure out how to not get caught. Same thing with a criminal. Put this guy away for 20 years and when he gets out he's not going to have magically lost his desire to have sex with children.

That said, I hope whatever this rehabilitation plan is that it is in a secured, long-term in-patient facility. Letting violent and dangerous criminals freely live among us before they have proven to actually be able to control themselves is somewhat ludicrus.

patrick.o
01-07-06, 01:38 PM
It's very, very high.
My point exactly.

gdn
01-07-06, 02:24 PM
Cause in 60 days theres going to be a child predator walking around, who probably won't register as a sex offender, gotta warn the publicHow do you know he won't register?


Yes, let's be sensationalist. That helps.

gdn
01-07-06, 02:25 PM
I guess we better hope the man is cured in the next two months then. I think this is a dumb law. 60 days for a crime that is just shy of murder on the severity list, is absurd for raping anyone, but a 7 year old? Put him in jail for 25 years and give him the counseling in jail. That law needs to be changed. Treatment AND punishment are equally important.You've got it mixed up. He gave him a light jail sentence because there is no rehabilitation in jail. His rehab is going to come on the outside, upon release. I'm sure if the judge had any faith in the correctional system's ability to help treat this individual, he'd have gotten a higher sentence.

gdn
01-07-06, 02:27 PM
Was 60 days the maximum for choice A?I just looked up the VT statute. If I remember correctly, sexual offense with a minor under 16 where the actor is a member of the family, the maximum is 35 years. If the person is not a member of the family, then it's 20, I think.

That still doesn't address the issue that concerned this judge. Jail will do nothing for this man. He needs counseling, treatment, help, etc.

gdn
01-07-06, 02:28 PM
Im sure when most sex offenders serve 5 or 10 years in prison, they really dont want to go back and will register most of the time. Why does this dude care? He got a slap on the wrist for raping a 7 year old girl. Whats the judge going to do if he doesn't register, give him a stern warning? If this had been a priest who had done this same thing and got the same sentence, you think it would be National News?Almost all states have statutes that make it at least a D felony for failure to register, requiring upto 5 years incarceration. From the quote in the article, however, it seems that his exposure upon release for failure to comply is going to be LWOP.

gdn
01-07-06, 02:29 PM
Child molestors and child murderers are very low on the totem pole in prisons. Even hardened murderers doing life look at these people like they're lower than pond scum. My guess is if they put that guy in gen pop, he won't last long without Bubba coming in his cell for a howdy.Which is why he'll probably be in seg or PC.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 02:47 PM
Almost all states have statutes that make it at least a D felony for failure to register, requiring upto 5 years incarceration. From the quote in the article, however, it seems that his exposure upon release for failure to comply is going to be LWOP.

And most states have statutes that give more than 60 days to rapists. If he raped a 40 year old woman would he get 60 days+ rehab? I don't think so. Do you keep sending this man to rehab if he commits another crime like this?

gdn
01-07-06, 02:52 PM
And most states have statutes that give more than 60 days to rapists. If he raped a 40 year old woman would he get 60 days+ rehab? I don't think so. Do you keep sending this man to rehab if he commits another crime like this?No, he wouldn't. That's misleading, though. This is a crime of a delicate nature and most would say, unnatural and "diseased". So, it's a psychological problem to the greatest extent. Is rehabilitation and treatment needed? Absolutely.

What if he re-offends? Who knows. My opinion would depend on the circumstances, the facts at that point. Did he go to treatment? Was treatment made available to him? Who was the victim? How far in the future was it? Would I sentence him to more jail time the second time around? Without a doubt. Would it be a life sentence? I don't know.

PettittesPrincess
01-07-06, 02:53 PM
This judge should be removed immediately. Sex offenders, from what I understand are the most likely to re offend... that's not something that can be rehabilitated.... this is disgusting.

YankeePride1967
01-07-06, 02:55 PM
You've got it mixed up. He gave him a light jail sentence because there is no rehabilitation in jail. His rehab is going to come on the outside, upon release. I'm sure if the judge had any faith in the correctional system's ability to help treat this individual, he'd have gotten a higher sentence.

No, I didn't have it mixed up. I had it right and I understand what you said and the situation, the law stinks, the law should allow the rehab while he is incarcerated. I understand the situation. 60 days for rape of a 7 year old? What's murder these days, 90 days? Meanwhile how long are these Enron guys getting for what they did? We're saying that's worse than brutalizing a 7 year old girl? Sorry, rehab is important, so is punishment. Let him do a fair term, 60 days is appropriate for jaywalking.

gdn
01-07-06, 02:58 PM
No, I didn't have it mixed up. I had it right and I understand what you said and the situation, the law stinks, the law should allow the rehab while he is incarcerated. I understand the situation. 60 days for rape of a 7 year old? What's murder these days, 90 days? Meanwhile how long are these Enron guys getting for what they did? We're saying that's worse than brutalizing a 7 year old girl? Sorry, rehab is important, so is punishment. Let him do a fair term, 60 days is appropriate for jaywalking.Murder? Depends on what state you live in. In some states, it's death :)

Enron is not a good example. Actually, none of the corporate defendants (up to last year) are good examples. There's a significant disparity in the sentencing of white-collar defendants and the rest.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:00 PM
No, he wouldn't. That's misleading, though. This is a crime of a delicate nature and most would say, unnatural and "diseased". So, it's a psychological problem to the greatest extent. Is rehabilitation and treatment needed? Absolutely.

What if he re-offends? Who knows. My opinion would depend on the circumstances, the facts at that point. Did he go to treatment? Was treatment made available to him? Who was the victim? How far in the future was it? Would I sentence him to more jail time the second time around? Without a doubt. Would it be a life sentence? I don't know.

Anyone who rapes anyone has serious psychological issues, not just pedofiles. I know the legal system should not be selfish in a way, but can you imagine being an 8 year old girl who was raped, and knowing your offender is walking the streets free. Imagine the psychotheraphy she is going to need. I still think 60 days is simply ridiculous. A guy from RI got 3 years for child porn, and RI is pretty leniant in their penalties. This dude raped a kid and got 60 days, thats simply a joke

gdn
01-07-06, 03:01 PM
Anyone who rapes anyone has serious psychological issues, not just pedofiles. I know the legal system should not be selfish in a way, but can you imagine being an 8 year old girl who was raped, and knowing your offender is walking the streets free. Imagine the psychotheraphy she is going to need. I still think 60 days is simply ridiculous. A guy from RI got 3 years for child porn, and RI is pretty leniant in their penalties. This dude raped a kid and got 60 days, thats simply a jokeHey, I never said that the sentence was appropriate, only that it was legal. The beef should be with the legislature, not the bench.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:09 PM
Hey, I never said that the sentence was appropriate, only that it was legal. The beef should be with the legislature, not the bench.

Fair enough, but I think there is a serious problem with the judge. He claims he doesn't believe in punishment anymore, only rehabilitation. What does a murderer get? Or a drug dealer? Minimum sentence and rehab?

YankeePride1967
01-07-06, 03:09 PM
Murder? Depends on what state you live in. In some states, it's death :)

Enron is not a good example. Actually, none of the corporate defendants (up to last year) are good examples. There's a significant disparity in the sentencing of white-collar defendants and the rest.

Well as far as I'm concerned, it might as well have been 0 days, 60 days for raping of anyone is a felony that is only surpassed (except for treason) by murder and attempted murder. In 60 days this animal is going to be living free amongst us. That scares the hell out of me. Yes I know rehab and treatment should be part of it, but also a lengthy jail sentence as well. Get rid of the law and allow it. The man should not see daytime until 2021 at the earliest. If I'm in Vermont and hear this, I wouldn't even bother pressing charges against these animals anymore as it does no good. I'm glad you acknowledge that the sentence isn't appropriate because it's a joke. And with this as a barameter, it appears white-collar penalties are too high. Change the law.

YankeePride1967
01-07-06, 03:11 PM
Fair enough, but I think there is a serious problem with the judge. He claims he doesn't believe in punishment anymore, only rehabilitation. What does a murderer get? Or a drug dealer? Minimum sentence and rehab?

I agree, even with the restrictions due to the absurd law, the punishment is still a joke. This man is going to be living free amongst us in 60 days. Let's hope he is cured in that time by some miracle. Even with this he should have gotten years, not days in jail.

gdn
01-07-06, 03:12 PM
Well as far as I'm concerned, it might as well have been 0 days, 60 days for raping of anyone is a felony that is only surpassed (except for treason) by murder and attempted murder. In 60 days this animal is going to be living free amongst us. That scares the hell out of me. Yes I know rehab and treatment should be part of it, but also a lengthy jail sentence as well. Get rid of the law and allow it. The man should not see daytime until 2021 at the earliest. If I'm in Vermont and hear this, I wouldn't even bother pressing charges against these animals anymore as it does no good. I'm glad you acknowledge that the sentence isn't appropriate because it's a joke. And with this as a barameter, it appears white-collar penalties are too high. Change the law.Obviously you will recognize that this sentence is an anomaly and not the norm.

Also, he will not be living free. There are severe restrictions on sex offenders. Life-time registration is one. Most towns and states are now passing zoning restrictions, which essentially means that sex offenders will not be permitted to live anywhere. I'm not exaggerating. Also, no one hires sex offenders.

What he did is a crime and is wrong. I'm not going to ask for the resignation of the judge, however.

gdn
01-07-06, 03:13 PM
Fair enough, but I think there is a serious problem with the judge. He claims he doesn't believe in punishment anymore, only rehabilitation. What does a murderer get? Or a drug dealer? Minimum sentence and rehab?Again, there's a difference between someone who sexually assaults and someone who commits a murder or sells drugs. One has seriously psychological problems and the other doesn't (well, he/she may, but it's not connected to the crime). The judge seems to say that he doesn't believe in the prospects for rehabilitation/treatment for someone with a psychological condition in jail.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:16 PM
Again, there's a difference between someone who sexually assaults and someone who commits a murder or sells drugs. One has seriously psychological problems and the other doesn't (well, he/she may, but it's not connected to the crime). The judge seems to say that he doesn't believe in the prospects for rehabilitation/treatment for someone with a psychological condition in jail.

I disagree. If I go out and kill 5 people for fun (like Tookie), are you saying I don't have psychological issues?

gdn
01-07-06, 03:17 PM
I disagree. If I go out and kill 5 people for fun (like Tookie), are you saying I don't have psychological issues?Absolutely you do. Do all murderers? No. Do most sex offenders? Yes.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:18 PM
Absolutely you do. Do all murderers? No. Do most sex offenders? Yes.

What type of murderer doesn't have psychological problems?

gdn
01-07-06, 03:20 PM
What type of murderer doesn't have psychological problems?Murder for hire, felony murder, gang murders...

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:22 PM
Murder for hire, felony murder, gang murders...

You don't think theres something mentally wrong with someone getting paid to knock off someone? People who think it is ok to take the life of another because they make a job out of it? Whats felony murder? If a husband kills his wife. What triggers that? He is really really mad? Most psychologists will tell you there is an inner voice (call it what you want) that tells us what actions are right and wrong. Those is gangs, those who are hitman or what have you have been socialized to think murder is an answer, which is clearly a psychological issue

gdn
01-07-06, 03:27 PM
You don't think theres something mentally wrong with someone getting paid to knock off someone? People who think it is ok to take the life of another because they make a job out of it? Whats felony murder? If a husband kills his wife. What triggers that? He is really really mad? Most psychologists will tell you there is an inner voice (call it what you want) that tells us what actions are right and wrong. Those is gangs, those who are hitman or what have you have been socialized to think murder is an answer, which is clearly a psychological issueYes, using that argument, EVERY person who commits a crime has psychological issues. You can make that argument. There have to be degrees, however. Some control an individual's behavior to the extent that he cannot but commit that crime. paedophile's fall into that category.


Felony murder is murder committed during the course of another felony.

You're also neglecting societal effects; the effect of parents (or lack thereof); their economic situation, etc.

MiamiKat
01-07-06, 03:28 PM
Again, there's a difference between someone who sexually assaults and someone who commits a murder or sells drugs. One has seriously psychological problems and the other doesn't (well, he/she may, but it's not connected to the crime). The judge seems to say that he doesn't believe in the prospects for rehabilitation/treatment for someone with a psychological condition in jail.

Raping a child "many, many times over a four-year span starting when she was seven" is not a "psychological condition".

It's a crime of violence, and it sickens me that anyone sees otherwise.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:30 PM
You're also neglecting societal effects; the effect of parents (or lack thereof); their economic situation, etc.

What do you think socialized means?

I see what your saying with felony murder, i'll give you that. There are certainly degrees of crimes, psychologically speaking and sexual assualt/murder are at the top

gdn
01-07-06, 03:32 PM
Raping a child "many, many times over a four-year span starting when she was seven" is not a "psychological condition".

It's a crime of violence, and it sickens me that anyone sees otherwise.You don't think it's the product of a psychological disorder? You don't think there's something wrong with that man?

gdn
01-07-06, 03:33 PM
What do you think socialized means?

I see what your saying with felony murder, i'll give you that. There are certainly degrees of crimes, psychologically speaking and sexual assualt/murder are at the topSorry, I'm multi-multi-tasking. Yeah... I don't know about assault/murder. I interact with a lot of people convicted of those crimes and I'm not sure there's anything wrong with them psychologically. I'm no psychiatrist, though.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:34 PM
You don't think it's the product of a psychological disorder? You don't think there's something wrong with that man?

You don't reassimilate him into society. Thats like giving a drug addict a job in a pharmacy. Its pretty sad that the state and the taxpayers will pay for this fools therapy while the parents of that little girl are going to spend years paying for her therapy

MiamiKat
01-07-06, 03:37 PM
You don't think it's the product of a psychological disorder? You don't think there's something wrong with that man?
Frankly, I don't give a sh*t.

If someone rapes a child -- and especially someone who repeatedly rapes a girl over a four year span -- he should go to jail for an exceedingly long time. Period.

gdn
01-07-06, 03:37 PM
You don't reassimilate him into society. Thats like giving a drug addict a job in a pharmacy. Its pretty sad that the state and the taxpayers will pay for this fools therapy while the parents of that little girl are going to spend years paying for her therapySo we just ignore him for the rest of his life? That's it? Lock 'im up and that's the end of that. Out of sight, out of mind.

MiamiKat
01-07-06, 03:38 PM
So we just ignore him for the rest of his life? That's it? Lock 'im up and that's the end of that. Out of sight, out of mind.
Yup. That's it.

This is a CHILD RAPIST. Not someone who was caught smoking pot or some victimless "crime".

gdn
01-07-06, 03:39 PM
Yup. That's it.Sorry, I don't agree with that. You're obviously entitled to your own opinion.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:40 PM
So we just ignore him for the rest of his life? That's it? Lock 'im up and that's the end of that. Out of sight, out of mind.

Rehab is fine after appropriate sentencing. Frankly, this guy is a danger to society. David Berkowitz has had extensive psychotherapy in jail for over 25 years and he himself has confessed he isn't ready to be reassimilated in society. Granted, it is different, but therapy isn't a 3 week task, its lifelong, and frankly no one knows if this man wants to be cured

gdn
01-07-06, 03:41 PM
Rehab is fine after appropriate sentencing. Frankly, this guy is a danger to society. David Berkowitz has had extensive psychotherapy in jail for over 25 years and he himself has confessed he isn't ready to be reassimilated in society. Granted, it is different, but therapy isn't a 3 week task, its lifelong, and frankly no one knows if this man wants to be curedand given VT's correctional system, if we leave him in jail for 25 years, we won't find out. That's what the judge was thinking.

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:44 PM
and given VT's correctional system, if we leave him in jail for 25 years, we won't find out. That's what the judge was thinking.

SO he reduced it from 25 years tooooooo 10? 5? 1 year? Nah

Its scary cause although he is getting rehab, he isn't getting it until he is released. We are sending an unrehabilitated rapist who was given a slap on the wrist back into society

MiamiKat
01-07-06, 03:44 PM
Sorry, I don't agree with that. You're obviously entitled to your own opinion.

Fair enough.

I just think there are certain categories of criminal -- child rapist among them -- who have committed such heinous crimes that they have to serve appropriate punishment, meaning incarceration.

Not everyone can or should be "rehabilitated". (As if child rapists and pedophiles have any track record of being rehabilitated anyway...)

MiamiKat
01-07-06, 03:46 PM
SO he reduced it from 25 years tooooooo 10? 5? 1 year? Nah

Its scary cause although he is getting rehab, he isn't getting it until he is released. We are sending an unrehabilitated rapist who was given a slap on the wrist back into society
Wanna bet he skips town?

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 03:47 PM
As if child rapists and pedophiles have any track record of being rehabilitated anyway

Its a very dangerous experiment. If you give him a light jail sentence and say "we'll get him rehabbed" and it doesn't take, it could mean another child's life ruined. This isn't a junkie who can't get off crack, its a person who preys on 10 year olds

MiamiKat
01-07-06, 03:57 PM
Its a very dangerous experiment. If you give him a light jail sentence and say "we'll get him rehabbed" and it doesn't take, it could mean another child's life ruined. This isn't a junkie who can't get off crack, its a person who preys on 10 year olds
I agree. This is an extremely risky move.

From what I've read -- and I admit I'm no expert on this topic -- pedophiles have incredibly low "cure" rates. Plus, this isn't just a guy who was simply busted with kiddie porn pictures on his computer (as disgusting and despicable as that is). He raped a young girl repeatedly over the course of a four-year time span. Rape is a crime of violence. Of power. Of aggression.

Where do we draw the line as a society? If the same guy had raped an adult woman over the course of 4 years, he'd probably be thrown in jail no questions asked. So why should a child rapist get special, preferential treatment?

RhodeyYankee2638
01-07-06, 04:04 PM
I agree. This is an extremely risky move.

From what I've read -- and I admit I'm no expert on this topic -- pedophiles have incredibly low "cure" rates. Plus, this isn't just a guy who was simply busted with kiddie porn pictures on his computer (as disgusting and despicable as that is). He raped a young girl repeatedly over the course of a four-year time span. Rape is a crime of violence. Of power. Of aggression.

Where do we draw the line as a society? If the same guy had raped an adult woman over the course of 4 years, he'd probably be thrown in jail no questions asked. So why should a child rapist get special, preferential treatment?

No idea whatsoever. I wonder if this judge would send a man to rehab for beating his wife, instead of locking up the guy

Trish
01-07-06, 04:36 PM
The outrage here is understandable, but the fact of the matter is that prison doesn't work. It's a nice bit of comfort to victims and the public at large, but any first year psych major can tell you that there is conclusive evidence that punishment is the least effective means of altering behavior. Smack a kid every time you catch him with his hand in the cookie jar and he's not going to want cookies any less, he's just going to learn that he needs to figure out how to not get caught. Same thing with a criminal. Put this guy away for 20 years and when he gets out he's not going to have magically lost his desire to have sex with children.

That said, I hope whatever this rehabilitation plan is that it is in a secured, long-term in-patient facility. Letting violent and dangerous criminals freely live among us before they have proven to actually be able to control themselves is somewhat ludicrus.
Ok, how about "I am a pedophile" tattooed across his forehead?

Archer1979
01-07-06, 04:38 PM
Ok, how about "I am a pedophile" tattooed across his forehead?

I was leaning toward the "I am now a eunuch" tattoo. Of course we would have to make sure it wasn't false advertising...

SODM
01-07-06, 05:34 PM
Did anyone say that? Show me a post where someone said crimes shouldn't warrant punishment. Obviously they should.

Did you bother to read what the judge said?


You're wrong on the count that the judge overstepped his powers. His powers are to sentence an individual within statutory guidelines/limits. Apparently he did. So he did nothing wrong. You may feel that the sentence is too light - and it may be - but he didn't do anything illegal/unconstitutional/in violation of a statute.

He DID do something wrong.
He violated the public trust by not handing out a sentence that the crime warranted because he claimed he does not believe in the punishment.

"Overstepping his power" doesn't mean the sentence was illegal, just that he is interpreting what he thinks is best for this pedophile and foregoing punishment by pushing his agenda.



It's a local case. Why should it be national news? What makes it a national case? Because someone found it on the internet? Should every crime be reported in every newspaper?

The crime is not national news (because we live in a sick world where stuff like this happens more often than it should).
The injustice which took place at this monster's sentencing should be, duh.



While the crime is disgusting, the man is disgusting, the judge probably did the right thing. Many experts are divided on whether treatment and rehabilitation is enough to keep a sex offender from re-offending. One of the reasons is the lack of data; for the most part, rapists and pedophiles with repeated offenses are given 15-life, with chance of parole at 20 usually minus good behavior rules which depend on the state; so basically for most areas call it the guy serves 13 years then is given probabtionary release and required registration. By this time the offender's sense of injustice towards themselves, the indignity of prison, the indignity of the treatment he will receive in the new community will drive the offender insane, I don't have the data for recidivism for released pedophiles in front of me, and due to work and World of Warcraft I'm really not going to research it, but I would assume that the offender would not feel guilt, but anger at being ostracized and demonized for his actions.

Each person of course has their own opinions of course, and the knee-jerk reaction is probably to say that he deserves to be demonized/ostracized for his actions; but that is not what's best for the offender nor the community. Knee-jerk emotional responses to even the most heinous of crimes down to the most inconsequential crime is never good, that is why judges are supposed to have an impartial power away from the common people.

With research and professionals and academics given unrestricted access to people such as this offender we as a collective can help come to a better understanding of the causes of the behavior and identifying the warning signs to prevent actions such as this quicker and more effectively.

I'm sorry, did you just say that locking this animal up is not what's best for the community?
Keeping this guy as far away from children for as long as possible is what's best for the community.

You would also like to forego the dispatching of justice in the name of data research?
No thanks.
The researchers can study these animals inside of the cages where they belong.
Perhaps the researchers should do a study on the effects of castration on pedophiles.




The outrage here is understandable, but the fact of the matter is that prison doesn't work. It's a nice bit of comfort to victims and the public at large, but any first year psych major can tell you that there is conclusive evidence that punishment is the least effective means of altering behavior. Smack a kid every time you catch him with his hand in the cookie jar and he's not going to want cookies any less, he's just going to learn that he needs to figure out how to not get caught. Same thing with a criminal. Put this guy away for 20 years and when he gets out he's not going to have magically lost his desire to have sex with children.

That said, I hope whatever this rehabilitation plan is that it is in a secured, long-term in-patient facility. Letting violent and dangerous criminals freely live among us before they have proven to actually be able to control themselves is somewhat ludicrus.

The thing that's making my head ready to explode is the improportionate concern for this scum bag vs. the concerns over the victim and the family.
Restitution, retribution, and piece of mind for the victim should all have played a role in the judge's weighing of the sentence.
His blatant disregard for these factors is what has drawn my ire for this judge more than anything.


Hey, I never said that the sentence was appropriate, only that it was legal. The beef should be with the legislature, not the bench.

Legal doesn't make it right.

JDPNYY
01-07-06, 07:12 PM
Perhaps instead of removing the judge from the bench they should shove the bench up the judge.

BronxByTheBay
01-07-06, 08:50 PM
Hey folks - remember the good ol' days when we used to sentence people for committing crimes because it was...I dunno...JUSTICE?

Remember that word? Not "revenge" or "vengeance" - justice.

Should criminals have a shot at rehabilitation? Sure. After they pay their debt to society and suffer the consequences for their actions. That's where this judge is a sh*thead. He hasn't made an allowance for this piece of sh*t to suffer for the crime he was convicted. There were no consequences for raping a child. None.

Nothing good happened here. We can argue semantics and criminal justice system nuances till we're blue in the face. Justice was not carried out. I don't care if this guy gets the "help" he needs. He needed to be punished. That should be the point of any form of sentencing - first: punishment. Second: fix 'em if you can.

YankeePride1967
01-07-06, 09:07 PM
Obviously you will recognize that this sentence is an anomaly and not the norm.

Also, he will not be living free. There are severe restrictions on sex offenders. Life-time registration is one. Most towns and states are now passing zoning restrictions, which essentially means that sex offenders will not be permitted to live anywhere. I'm not exaggerating. Also, no one hires sex offenders.

What he did is a crime and is wrong. I'm not going to ask for the resignation of the judge, however.

Nor did I prior, nor do I now call for him to resign, but the penalty is a joke. But in comparison, then murder should be around 80 or 90 days or so. Those restrictions are nice, but how about the penalties this 7 year old girl is paying? I could care less about the piece of trash. The sad thing is, if the father of the 7 year old girl went and appropriately beat this loser to a pulp, the father would likely get a longer jail sentence.

Jersey Yankee
01-07-06, 10:33 PM
If that were my daughter, that scumbag would be safer in jail.
What would stop someone from getting arrested, hoping to get into the same jail?

Archer1979
01-07-06, 10:48 PM
What would stop someone from getting arrested, hoping to get into the same jail?

Too many variables.

Is it a state thing, a county thing, a federal thing?

Type of crime may deserve minimum security, maximum security.

I wouldn't like my odds. It would be best to wait until his snetencing and finding someone who needs their family taken care of financially.

Does is eem like I've already put thought into this.

allybear
01-08-06, 07:33 PM
Absoutely disgusting - I don't know if treatment can help him, but I know that having him out on the street while he's receiving this treatment isn't helping anyone. I realize that he's going to have to see children after the treatment, but still, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to put him out there in the community when we don't know if he's "cured" or not.

BronxByTheBay
01-10-06, 12:03 PM
From the ridiculous to the sublime...

Two babysitters have been jailed for raping a 12-week-old baby and taking pictures of the abuse.

Alan Webster, 40, and his girlfriend Tanya French, 19, both from Hatfield in Hertfordshire, pleaded guilty to rape and making indecent images.

Webster was given a life sentence at St Albans Crown Court; French was jailed for five years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/4599524.stm

The story is horrific and saps my understanding of humanity. Really. But at least justice was done.

CoyoteYankee
01-10-06, 12:25 PM
From the ridiculous to the sublime...

Two babysitters have been jailed for raping a 12-week-old baby and taking pictures of the abuse.

Alan Webster, 40, and his girlfriend Tanya French, 19, both from Hatfield in Hertfordshire, pleaded guilty to rape and making indecent images.

Webster was given a life sentence at St Albans Crown Court; French was jailed for five years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/4599524.stm

The story is horrific and saps my understanding of humanity. Really. But at least justice was done.

OMG. I don't think there is anything sicker than sexually abusing a freakin' baby. It saddens me to know that there are people capable of this out there.

BronxByTheBay
01-10-06, 12:31 PM
OMG. I don't think there is anything sicker than sexually abusing a freakin' baby. It saddens me to know that there are people capable of this out there.

Encouraging to know that these two won't be out there any longer at least.

I won't even try to guess at the mindset that would rape a baby. I can't - it's so foreign to me as a human being. I had to reread the headline a few times because my mind just couldn't grasp it.

StaceyRosie
01-10-06, 12:34 PM
What the hell is wrong with people!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

LDG
01-10-06, 02:04 PM
Those two will find out when they get to prison just how kindly their mates take to child rapers.

NYYBombshell
01-10-06, 02:42 PM
From the ridiculous to the sublime...

Two babysitters have been jailed for raping a 12-week-old baby and taking pictures of the abuse.

Alan Webster, 40, and his girlfriend Tanya French, 19, both from Hatfield in Hertfordshire, pleaded guilty to rape and making indecent images.

Webster was given a life sentence at St Albans Crown Court; French was jailed for five years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/4599524.stm

The story is horrific and saps my understanding of humanity. Really. But at least justice was done.



HOW DO YOU RAPE A 12-WEEK OLD BABY?!


Talk about someone who needs to be at the front of the line for the firing squad.

YankeePride1967
01-10-06, 07:54 PM
From the ridiculous to the sublime...

Two babysitters have been jailed for raping a 12-week-old baby and taking pictures of the abuse.

Alan Webster, 40, and his girlfriend Tanya French, 19, both from Hatfield in Hertfordshire, pleaded guilty to rape and making indecent images.

Webster was given a life sentence at St Albans Crown Court; French was jailed for five years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/4599524.stm

The story is horrific and saps my understanding of humanity. Really. But at least justice was done.

Very good and justice served. Thank God they didn't live in Vermont, they'd probably be eating at a Wendy's as I type.

Mattpat11
01-10-06, 08:51 PM
Aha.. I knew it!

The full story:


I don't know VT statutes, but I'm willing to bet that if he imposed a significantly longer sentence, there would have been no medical help/treatment/psychological counseling available to the man.Who the hell cares? These people cannot be rehabilitated. The best thing to do would be to lock them up and keep them away from the general populace forever.

Mattpat11
01-10-06, 09:27 PM
Very good and justice served. Thank God they didn't live in Vermont, they'd probably be eating at a Wendy's as I type. Hell, this judge would probably give them jobs in a nursery school, because it would allow them to work through their issues or some ................,

Luvtino
01-10-06, 11:06 PM
I saw the story covered on MSNBC and now CNN is reporting on it as well. It is nice to see the outrage over this sentencing. At the very least the people of VT will press to have new legislature passed.

The part about the family knowing he had an interest in the girl and that they slept in the same bed is disturbing. It isn't part of a quote, but says it appears in court documents. If they knew this man had an unhealthy interest in their child what was he doing in their home let alone her bed?!

That of course doesn't excuse this child molester's actions. It just makes me feel even worse for this little girl. If the info is true then no one was was protecting her from this predator. The fact that he is going to be back on the streets after 60 days when the judge feels he doesn't even understand what he did wrong due to emotional immaturity is frightening. He needs to be locked away from society until he does understand. I really fear for the children.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/01/10/judge.sexual.assault.ap/index.html

Judge slammed for molester's 60-day sentence

'People believe he has flipped his lid'

Tuesday, January 10, 2006; Posted: 8:47 p.m. EST (01:47 GMT)


Judge Edward Cashman presides over a hearing in Vermont District Court in Burlington on Tuesday.

BURLINGTON, Vermont (AP) -- A judge is under fire for sentencing a man to 60 days in prison for molesting a girl beginning when she was 6 years old.

Judge Edward Cashman said he did not require Mark Hulett, 34, to serve more time because Hulett could not receive sex offender treatment while in prison.

"The court viewed the defendant as a dangerous man, likely to engage in future crime unless he has proper and timely treatment," the judge said in court documents filed Tuesday.

Once released, Hulett must undergo treatment and will be under state supervision. If he fails to abide by the terms, he could be sent back to prison for up to 10 years for aggravated sexual assault.

If he serves that time, Hulett would also face a potential life sentence for a second sexual assault count.

Victim's family is outraged

The victim's family, who have not been identified publicly, were outraged by the decision, handed down January 4.

Gov. James Douglas condemned the sentence and House Republicans introduced a resolution calling on Cashman to resign. A state senator is urging his impeachment.

"This guy has got to go," state Sen. Wendy Wilton, a Republican, said in a television appearance. "People believe he has flipped his lid."

For his part, Cashman said he was aware of the criticism his decision had prompted, stating that the "negative comments sting."

"I owe it to the judiciary and to my own conscience to maintain a stand that I believe is the best possible option in a very difficult situation," he said.

Hulett was family friend

Hulett pleaded guilty last summer to charges that he sexually assaulted the victim on at least three occasions over a four-year period.

Hulett was a friend of the victim's family and frequently stayed in her home. The victim's parents were aware that Hulett had an interest in the girl and that the two, on some occasions, slept in the same bed, court documents said.

The Department of Correction's sex offender treatment team argued Hulett's risk to re-offend was low. Under Corrections Department policy low-risk sex offenders can only be treated in the community.

But Cashman disagreed with those assessments. He wrote that Hulett had the emotional maturity of a 12- to 14-year old and did not understand why others were so upset by his actions.

Cashman said he was concerned that delaying Hulett's treatment while he served a longer sentence would cause more harm and increase the long-term risk he presented to the community.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

texasyankee
01-11-06, 05:25 AM
If that were my daughter, that scumbag would be safer in jail.

I'll do you one better.......
If my daughter or son were sexually abused by scumbags like that, they wouldnt even make it to jail.......

Anyone that believes a child rapist or pedophile can be rehabbed should be the first to volunteer their home as a halfway house for those scum....

allybear
01-11-06, 07:42 AM
Does anyone else find this part incredibly disturbing:


But Cashman disagreed with those assessments. He wrote that Hulett had the emotional maturity of a 12- to 14-year old and did not understand why others were so upset by his actions.

The guy doesn't know why people would be so upset and the judge is looking at this as a reason to let him go?!? HUH?!? Isn't that more reason to lock him up and keep him away from people? Bizarre...

LilChief
01-11-06, 08:01 AM
This story just blows my mind...:enraged: :enraged: :enraged: :enraged:

gdn
01-11-06, 08:28 AM
Who the hell cares? These people cannot be rehabilitated. The best thing to do would be to lock them up and keep them away from the general populace forever.I don't want to start arguing about this again, but

see:

http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2005/08/more_politician.html

In particular:
http://www.vcsc.state.va.us/sex_off_report.pdf (pdf file)
http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/newhope.html
http://www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/SSOSAReport.pdf (pdf)
http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/csot/csot_teffective.shtm

hobokenfish
01-11-06, 08:44 AM
Does anyone else find this part incredibly disturbing:



The guy doesn't know why people would be so upset and the judge is looking at this as a reason to let him go?!? HUH?!? Isn't that more reason to lock him up and keep him away from people? Bizarre...

To me it sounds like the guy might be mentally slow. If that's the case, I wonder if it changes people's minds somewhat.

BronxByTheBay
01-11-06, 09:04 AM
To me it sounds like the guy might be mentally slow. If that's the case, I wonder if it changes people's minds somewhat.

Why? If he were mentally slow, wouldn't that suggest even less of a shot that rehabilitation works?

hobokenfish
01-11-06, 09:19 AM
Why? If he were mentally slow, wouldn't that suggest even less of a shot that rehabilitation works?

Not sure -- depends on the person and the handicap.

BronxByTheBay
01-11-06, 09:29 AM
Not sure -- depends on the person and the handicap.

Except look at you - you weren't able to overcome yours and decided to become a lawyer. :eek:

hobokenfish
01-11-06, 09:36 AM
Except look at you - you weren't able to overcome yours and decided to become a lawyer. :eek:

:lol: I think that is my handicap.... Actually, my handicap right now is procrastinating the writing of a brief opposing a trial lawyers organization (knew you'd like that one)...just can't get myself in the right mode.

gdn
01-11-06, 09:49 AM
Why? If he were mentally slow, wouldn't that suggest even less of a shot that rehabilitation works?Wouldn't that suggest more of a need for treatment and counseling?

BronxByTheBay
01-11-06, 09:58 AM
:lol: I think that is my handicap.... Actually, my handicap right now is procrastinating the writing of a brief opposing a trial lawyers organization (knew you'd like that one)...just can't get myself in the right mode.

That's easy - just imagine arguing against people who like to murder kittens and hate Jesus.

BronxByTheBay
01-11-06, 10:00 AM
Wouldn't that suggest more of a need for treatment and counseling?

Depends on what kind - there has to be some form of incarceration. I'm not a mental health care provider, so I have no idea what a mentally slow child raper requires. I do know that the community at large requires protection from this individual.

gdn
01-11-06, 10:04 AM
Depends on what kind - there has to be some form of incarceration. I'm not a mental health care provider, so I have no idea what a mentally slow child raper requires. I do know that the community at large requires protection from this individual.I think he was in an environment (in the house of the parents who let him sleep in the girl's bed) that led to this situation. Most child molesters are people known to the victim, either in a neighborly or authority figure relationship. If he is "slow", I'm really not sure what a lengthy period of incarceration is going to do. IF the DOC made available mental health treatment in conjunction with lengthy sentences, then that would be perfect. Unfortunately, the problem in VT, it seems, is that an offender of his classification does not have treatment available to him. Which is why the judge chose to have him serve a short sentence and then receive mental health treatment.

Remember, he was classified as "low-risk" by the Department of Correction.

gdn
01-11-06, 05:18 PM
More news:
State decides to treat sex offender in jail

http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2006/01/11/state_decides_to_treat_sex_offender_in_jail/

Important quotes:

Jane Woodruff, the head of the Vermont State's Attorney's and Sheriff's Association, said Cashman's complicated sentence for Hulett made it difficult for many lawmakers to understand.

The basic sentence is 60 days to 10 years in prison. After the 60 days Hulett would be in the community, but he would be under intense supervision by the Department of Corrections. If at any point he failed to abide by his conditions he could be returned to prison immediately to serve out the full sentence.

A second sentence, which would begin after the 10-year sentence was completed, would place Hulett on probation for life. If he then violated the terms of his condition he could be sent to prison for life.

"It was portrayed as only a 60-day sentence and it's not. I think that's been lost," Woodruff said.

BronxByTheBay
01-11-06, 05:28 PM
I think he was in an environment (in the house of the parents who let him sleep in the girl's bed) that led to this situation. Most child molesters are people known to the victim, either in a neighborly or authority figure relationship. If he is "slow", I'm really not sure what a lengthy period of incarceration is going to do.

Keep him away from other people's kids.



IF the DOC made available mental health treatment in conjunction with lengthy sentences, then that would be perfect. Unfortunately, the problem in VT, it seems, is that an offender of his classification does not have treatment available to him. Which is why the judge chose to have him serve a short sentence and then receive mental health treatment.

Remember, he was classified as "low-risk" by the Department of Correction.

Great. Meanwhile he still committed a crime and still deserved punishment. I'd also be curious to see any statistics regarding the effectiveness of treatment in helping these guys.

gdn
01-11-06, 05:31 PM
Keep him away from other people's kids.



Great. Meanwhile he still committed a crime and still deserved punishment. I'd also be curious to see any statistics regarding the effectiveness of treatment in helping these guys.See my previous post. It explains the actual, exact sentence.

As far as statistics for treatment, I don't know any. However, earlier today, I did post studies on recidivism.

Bub
01-11-06, 05:34 PM
However, earlier today, I did post studies on recidivism.Sounds like a painful joint condition.

BronxByTheBay
01-11-06, 05:37 PM
See my previous post. It explains the actual, exact sentence.

I read that - so the Department of Corrections will monitor him under "intense supervision". Would this be the same Department of Corrections you stated labeled him a "low risk" to the community?



As far as statistics for treatment, I don't know any. However, earlier today, I did post studies on recidivism.

So you're not sure if treatment works either?

gdn
01-11-06, 05:40 PM
Internet's acting weird, so I can't quote.

Yeah, it's the same DOC. However, that just furthers my argument that the beef shouldn't be with the judge, rather with the DOC and the legislature.

Also, I didn't say that I wasn't sure treatment worked (or didn't), just that I have seen any studies. There are more complications connected to a study on the effect of treatment as opposed to recidivism. The first thing that comes to mind is confidentiality.

BronxByTheBay
01-11-06, 05:42 PM
Internet's acting weird, so I can't quote.

Yeah, it's the same DOC. However, that just furthers my argument that the beef shouldn't be with the judge, rather with the DOC and the legislature.

Also, I didn't say that I wasn't sure treatment worked (or didn't), just that I have seen any studies. There are more complications connected to a study on the effect of treatment as opposed to recidivism. The first thing that comes to mind is confidentiality.

The apa.org article is funny. It wants to make a blanket generality in regards to treatment vs. punishment, and then goes on to state that not all sex offenders are the same and different conditions apply yada yada. So which is it? Should treatment be given preference over punishment all of the time? Some of the time? 1 out of 8?

gdn
01-11-06, 05:51 PM
The apa.org article is funny. It wants to make a blanket generality in regards to treatment vs. punishment, and then goes on to state that not all sex offenders are the same and different conditions apply yada yada. So which is it? Should treatment be given preference over punishment all of the time? Some of the time? 1 out of 8?You have now hit the nail on the head. This is not an easy issue. There are many factors to balance: safety of the community, punishment for a crime, mental health of an individual, the desire to rehabilitate, the duty to treat.

It's not an easy answer. However, the best Megan's laws in the country are those that provide for a form of review on an individual basis and have levels of sex offenders. That way, the 16 yr old who has sex with his 15 yr old girlfriend doesn't end up being branded a sex offender for the rest of his life.

It's complicated and I don't have all the answers. I just know enough to ask the questions.

SODM
01-11-06, 05:53 PM
However, that just furthers my argument that the beef shouldn't be with the judge.............

No matter how you look at it, the judge failed miserably at dispensing justice by punishing this man for a most contemptible offense.
How this is completely lost on you is beyond me.

The only thing I can come up with is that you are a law student trying to hone your craft by playing devil's advocate on an internet message board. :D

gdn
01-11-06, 05:55 PM
No matter how you look at it, the judge failed miserably at dispensing justice by punishing this man for a most contemptible offense.
How this is completely lost on you is beyond me.

The only thing I can come up with is that you are a law student trying to hone your craft by playing devil's advocate on an internet message board. :DI'll go one better: I'm an attorney :D

Seriously, though. If a judge imposed a 60 year sentence for someone who stole... say, a car, would you call for the same outrage?

gdn
01-11-06, 05:58 PM
A real life example:
http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2006/01/angelos_55year_.html

and more on the same:
http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2006/01/angelos_ruling_.html

For a detailed analysis:
http://washparkprophet.blogspot.com/2006/01/conservatives-embrace-kafka.html

NYYBombshell
01-11-06, 06:00 PM
I'll go one better: I'm an attorney :D

Seriously, though. If a judge imposed a 60 year sentence for someone who stole... say, a car, would you call for the same outrage?


Speaking only for myself, yes I would. The punishment should fit the crime, and 60 years for grand theft auto is not only excessive, it's abusive.

I think that's part of why so many people don't agree with this judge's ruling; the punishment in no way fits the severity of the crime committed. You don't rape a little girl and then get 60 days, or whatever the lightweight sentence was.

gdn
01-11-06, 06:03 PM
Oh sure. If the sentence was a flat 60 days to serve, I would agree with you. It's not, though. It's actually almost like

10 years, execution suspended after 60 days, with 10 years probation. Conditions of probation: strict treatment and compliance.

SODM
01-11-06, 06:08 PM
I'll go one better: I'm an attorney :D

Seriously, though. If a judge imposed a 60 year sentence for someone who stole... say, a car, would you call for the same outrage?

Yes.

If in that case 60 years was allowed for such an offense because of a loophole in the sentencing laws, would you still yield to the judge's apparent infallability?

gdn
01-11-06, 06:10 PM
Yes.

If in that case 60 years was allowed for such an offense because of a loophole in the sentencing laws, would you still yield to the judge's apparent infallability?Would I like it? No. Would I call for his resignation? No.

See Judge Cassell in the links I posted above.

Mattpat11
01-11-06, 06:43 PM
I think he was in an environment (in the house of the parents who let him sleep in the girl's bed) that led to this situation. Most child molesters are people known to the victim, either in a neighborly or authority figure relationship. If he is "slow", I'm really not sure what a lengthy period of incarceration is going to do.. Keep the rest of us safe from that monster.

hobokenfish
01-11-06, 06:44 PM
I'll go one better: I'm an attorney :D

Phew. Thought you mighta been a lawyer.....

texasyankee
01-11-06, 07:14 PM
I wonder when some people will realize that a child was raped and that the perpetrator deserves punishment? Severe punishment. 60 days in jail is not even close to the punishment for rape.
60 years or more in prison is the punishment this scum deserves. He will never rape a child again.

thecaptain
01-26-06, 10:17 PM
BURLINGTON, Vt. --A Vermont judge facing intense criticism for the 60-day jail sentenced he gave an admitted child molester changed his mind Thursday and increased the sentence to a minimum of three years.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2006/01/26/vermont_judge_imposes_3_10_year_sentence_for_sex_offender/

NYYBombshell
01-26-06, 11:20 PM
BURLINGTON, Vt. --A Vermont judge facing intense criticism for the 60-day jail sentenced he gave an admitted child molester changed his mind Thursday and increased the sentence to a minimum of three years.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2006/01/26/vermont_judge_imposes_3_10_year_sentence_for_sex_offender/


Oh wow.......a whole 3 years for raping a little girl. Gee, that'll teach him.


Where's that damn roll eyes smilie? :mad:

RadioheadRocks
01-28-06, 01:38 AM
And should it be national news when any sex offender gets out of prison? Should people in Missoula be warned that someone in Vermont is out of jail?

Everyone in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA should be warned that a convicted pedophile is out of jail.

RadioheadRocks
01-28-06, 01:40 AM
I'm sure if the judge had any faith in the correctional system's ability to help treat this individual, he'd have gotten a higher sentence.

... and if Grandma had cajones she'd be grandpa.

RadioheadRocks
01-28-06, 01:50 AM
Wanna bet he skips town?

Which is EXACTLY why everyone in the United States (INCLUDING MISSOULA) should know about this story.

gdn
02-15-06, 09:13 AM
Update time:

Hulett resentencted to 3 years.
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060127/NEWS/301270002&theme

Initially, I had some DJ concerns, but it seems that under VT Law, the Judge has the authority, within 7 days, to increase a sentence. The state did file a motion to resentence within the 7 days and in response to the DOC changing it's stance on providing treatment, the judge increased the sentence.

Importantly, however, Hulett waived his right to appeal and to withdraw his plea.

Bozidar
02-15-06, 09:33 AM
I don't understand why there can't be mandatory minimums for this kind of horror.

Edit -- i just read, 3 years? that's STILL a ................ing joke.

you rape a child, you go to prison for 25 years.

I don't understand who can't get on-board with this.

gdn
02-15-06, 09:35 AM
I don't understand why there can't be mandatory minimums for this kind of horror.

Edit -- i just read, 3 years? that's STILL a ................ing joke.

you rape a child, you go to prison for 25 years.

I don't understand who can't get on-board with this.Yep, there should be. Through the legislature.

Mattpat11
02-16-06, 02:36 AM
I don't understand why there can't be mandatory minimums for this kind of horror.

Edit -- i just read, 3 years? that's STILL a ................ing joke.

you rape a child, you go to prison for 25 years.

I don't understand who can't get on-board with this.25 years? Why, exactly, do they ever have to be readmitted into society?