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ring403
12-28-05, 11:08 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/12/28/yankees.cairo.ap/
NEW YORK (AP) -- Infielder Miguel Cairo and the New York Yankees reached a preliminary agreement Wednesday on a one-year, $1 million contract.

Cairo's deal is pending a physical, which likely will take place this week.
Welcome back, Miggy.

nnysiny
12-28-05, 11:17 PM
good to see him back

JDPNYY
12-28-05, 11:18 PM
Let's hope he has a significantly better year in 2006 than he did in 2005... and that he doesn't play much.

puckmaster87
12-28-05, 11:19 PM
Welcome back! Bench instantly improved.

hellonewman
12-28-05, 11:20 PM
Good signing, though he probably won't have much to do.

PoughVirginiaYankee
12-28-05, 11:22 PM
Sounds good to me - should help out the bench woes - and he wanted to be here all along anyway..

Boogiedown Bomber
12-28-05, 11:23 PM
Getting Jiggy with Miggy all over again!

Max Hill
12-28-05, 11:34 PM
Glad to see him back!

27IsNext
12-28-05, 11:36 PM
Welcome back, Miguel. I think he'll do well in a limited role.

guidry36
12-28-05, 11:36 PM
Great news!! Cairo provides insurance.....and Torre will find a way to get him some at-bats here and there. Great team-first attitude......and another solid move by Cashman.:clapping:

DiMaggio5CF
12-28-05, 11:40 PM
Welcome back, Miggy.

Hopefully this time, you won't find your way into the starting lineup.

I do feel more confident that Robinson Cano can keep Cairo on the bench than I did when Miggy's competition was Enrique Wilson.

I'm not sure about Cairo's ability to play short, but I still like him much better than Escalona; and if Jeter should need a rest, A-Rod can still play short with Phillips or Cairo at third, so we're good.

surge511
12-28-05, 11:41 PM
Very good insurance policy for the infield. A great signing for the bench.

Jeter Kid
12-28-05, 11:44 PM
yess! I like Cairo, i'm glad he is back.

shroud
12-28-05, 11:47 PM
wait a sec, he hit .250 last year and gets a $100k pay raise?

Oh well, im glad to have him back. This team needs its token venezuelan now that Sojo is gone.

puckmaster87
12-28-05, 11:48 PM
wait a sec, he hit .250 last year and gets a $100k pay raise?

Oh well, im glad to have him back. This team needs its token venezuelan now that Sojo is gone.

He was injured for most of last year. He is supposedly healthy now. Plus, he was playing in Shea. And why should we really care about $100K of Steinbrenner's money?

Sheff_Rod
12-28-05, 11:49 PM
Welcome back, Miguel!

Now, grab all your tapes/highlights from your Met days...and burn em. We need the '04 Cairo!

shroud
12-28-05, 11:52 PM
He was injured for most of last year. He is supposedly healthy now. Plus, he was playing in Shea. And why should we really care about $100K of Steinbrenner's money?

I don't care really, I just thought it was odd that coming off a year where he hit .290 he signs a $900k deal then hits .250 and gets a better deal. I know the market is different and all but it still seems odd.

AMYanks
12-28-05, 11:53 PM
Glad to have him back. Gives us some flexibility.

I still wish we could add a bat with some pop to the bench. But now the bench is basically full, unless the Yankees are not married to the idea of having Phillips on the MLB roster.

Re-signing Bernie was just a bad move, and it shows more now. Our bench will be Stinnett, Cairo, Phillips, Bernie, Crosby. It could be better than that, and Bernie is the one who is going to be expected to be the "pop" off the bench when we could've found someone else to do a better job.

Sheff_Rod
12-29-05, 12:09 AM
Glad to have him back. Gives us some flexibility.

I still wish we could add a bat with some pop to the bench. But now the bench is basically full, unless the Yankees are not married to the idea of having Phillips on the MLB roster.

Re-signing Bernie was just a bad move, and it shows more now. Our bench will be Stinnett, Cairo, Phillips, Bernie, Crosby. It could be better than that, and Bernie is the one who is going to be expected to be the "pop" off the bench when we could've found someone else to do a better job.

I think it would be better to have a bench with guys who can bunt, steal a base, play solid D. It's tough to have a guy come of the bench and provide some offense when they dont play regularly.

jimmyclark
12-29-05, 12:13 AM
Just do enough to give A Rod and Jeter some rest so they will be ready in the post season. Torre needs a better bench and he needs to use it more often than he has in recent years.

AMYanks
12-29-05, 12:16 AM
I think it would be better to have a bench with guys who can bunt, steal a base, play solid D. It's tough to have a guy come of the bench and provide some offense when they dont play regularly.

There are guys who can do it. Eduardo Perez would have been a nice option. I agree that situational guys are good, especially for a team with a starting lineup like we have. But you also want a little punch, that guy that you can bring in and believe he will crush one. Sierra did this in 2004. And I think this rings true even more when you have a guy like Bernie on the bench. Bernie doesn't really have a role, other than the fact this is his last hurrah so to speak. He will not come in for defensive purposes. He won't pinch run. He won't be brought in to lay down a bunt. The role he will be expected to fulfill, the power role (again, like Sierra in 2004) is a role I don't think he is suited for.

I don't think that this piece of the bench is critical - a "must", but I think it would be a very nice option to have.

keithf1
12-29-05, 12:29 AM
Should have never of left

StatenIslandYankee
12-29-05, 12:30 AM
Nice addition to the bench.

NYYBombshell
12-29-05, 12:32 AM
This team needs its token venezuelan now that Sojo is gone.



What the hell?

Mark19
12-29-05, 12:32 AM
Once more we hold the title of having the egypt's best ballplayer on our bench :P

njdhockey
12-29-05, 12:36 AM
This team needs its token venezuelan now that Sojo is gone.
Hell yea! Welcome back Miggy! :D

NyQuil
12-29-05, 12:51 AM
Welcome back Cairo! He gives us an improved bench and a great attitude.

23and2
12-29-05, 12:52 AM
Gritty and gutsy little player.. I'm glad he's back. Plus, he wants to be a Yankee which is always a plus in my book.

ZYanksRule
12-29-05, 01:34 AM
Once again, the Yankees will be "getting Miggy with it"

I love it, that's a great signing for the bench.

bakntime
12-29-05, 02:01 AM
There are guys who can do it. Eduardo Perez would have been a nice option. I agree that situational guys are good, especially for a team with a starting lineup like we have. But you also want a little punch, that guy that you can bring in and believe he will crush one. Sierra did this in 2004. But in the context of this move, we needed a backup infielder, one who is capable of playing middle infield especially. Perez, Andy Phillips, Ruben Sierra, etc... none of them can play a decent infield, if at all. Cairo can adequately back up all 4 infield positions, had a decent enough stick, and won't kill you in any particular facet of the game. He's a good all-around ball player, which is what you need for your infield utility man. Not someone who will hit a HR every so often but has no versatility on defense.

IncredibleByNature
12-29-05, 02:08 AM
Welcome back Miggy! :cool:

DontHateOnNumber2
12-29-05, 03:27 AM
Welcome back, hopefully he does well when needed.

YANKEE MAGIC
12-29-05, 03:47 AM
Welcome back Miggy

Nome
12-29-05, 05:44 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/12/28/yankees.cairo.ap/
Welcome back, Miggy.


I am sick and tired of us bringing back journeyman retreads. I don't understand why we don't go with younger players with a future instead of marginal players whose better days are past. Another in a long line of mistakes. Do we bring back Stanton, Leiter, Ladee and the rest of the tired old men?

Andy :mad:

Nome
12-29-05, 05:46 AM
Gritty and gutsy little player.. I'm glad he's back. Plus, he wants to be a Yankee which is always a plus in my book.


I want to be a Yankee. Does that mean I should get signed as a bench player? I never understood that kind of reasoning :mad:

Andy

23and2
12-29-05, 06:39 AM
I want to be a Yankee. Does that mean I should get signed as a bench player? I never understood that kind of reasoning :mad:

Andy

That's silly, you don't have any MLB experience - do you?

Hey, don't you see Cairo as a Louis Sojo type? He's a versatile, spot-fill type of player who can put up decent enough numbers. Look at the career comparison for example:

Sojo: .261/.297/.352 with 36 HRs and 261 RBIs and 28 SBs (13 ML Seasons)
Cairo: .270/.318/.364 with 27 HRs and 250 RBIs and 100 SBs (11 ML Seasons)

As valuable as Sojo was to this club, Cairo can be that and more as he brings a little more speed.

Yankee Steve
12-29-05, 06:40 AM
I am sick and tired of us bringing back journeyman retreads. I don't understand why we don't go with younger players with a future instead of marginal players whose better days are past. Another in a long line of mistakes. Do we bring back Stanton, Leiter, Ladee and the rest of the tired old men?

Andy :mad:
Because bench players are bench players for a reason and don't routinely have a "future". A young player wants to start and the attitude of coming off the bench is not there. Cairo WANTED to be here and is content with his role. I think this signing makes a lot of sense.

Yankee Steve
12-29-05, 06:42 AM
There are guys who can do it. Eduardo Perez would have been a nice option. I agree that situational guys are good, especially for a team with a starting lineup like we have. But you also want a little punch, that guy that you can bring in and believe he will crush one. Sierra did this in 2004. And I think this rings true even more when you have a guy like Bernie on the bench. Bernie doesn't really have a role, other than the fact this is his last hurrah so to speak. He will not come in for defensive purposes. He won't pinch run. He won't be brought in to lay down a bunt. The role he will be expected to fulfill, the power role (again, like Sierra in 2004) is a role I don't think he is suited for.

I don't think that this piece of the bench is critical - a "must", but I think it would be a very nice option to have.
Bernie DOES have a role. He is the everyday DH on this team. I also think that he will put up better numbers than last year because he will have less aches and pains from playing the field. If BW is your WORST offensive player in the starting lineup, you have very little to worry about, in my opinion.

Bub
12-29-05, 06:43 AM
I am sick and tired of us bringing back journeyman retreads. I don't understand why we don't go with younger players with a future instead of marginal players whose better days are past. Another in a long line of mistakes. Do we bring back Stanton, Leiter, Ladee and the rest of the tired old men?

Andy :mad:Hey, Andy. I think that this type of player is almost never a youngster. A-Rod, Jeter and Cano are all going to start 155+ games barring an injury. Cairo is a cheap backup who can play well defensively, isn't expected to contribute offensively, and won't pout or rot if he seldom gets used. Putting a youngster in that position would hurt his chances of improving. Cairo is substituting for Bellhorn, but either one would be fine. Mike Gallego was my favorite utility infielder.

rajah
12-29-05, 06:52 AM
Glad to have him back. Gives us some flexibility.

I still wish we could add a bat with some pop to the bench. But now the bench is basically full, unless the Yankees are not married to the idea of having Phillips on the MLB roster.

Re-signing Bernie was just a bad move, and it shows more now. Our bench will be Stinnett, Cairo, Phillips, Bernie, Crosby. It could be better than that, and Bernie is the one who is going to be expected to be the "pop" off the bench when we could've found someone else to do a better job.

1) Phillips should not be on the roster if he cannot provide "pop". He is a mediocre fielder who is slow afoot. Unlike Bernie, he has no past to respect and is not a prospect at his age.

2) The Y's will not end up carrying 12 pitchers. There will be one more player added. Hopefully that player will be a regular (e.g. Michaels) so Bernie, Phillips and Crosby will not be filling the 9th slot. But whether or not a regular, I agree that he needs to be a hitter.

3) Finally, as I have said in other posts, I disagree that Bernie is no longer capable of providing "pop" and being an effective part time player -- at least relative to the available options at the same price. Look at his PH and DH stats from last year even, when he played much more in the field than he will next year. I may be wrong and you may be right, but I am proud of the Y's for giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Yankees1962
12-29-05, 07:08 AM
2) The Y's will not end up carrying 12 pitchers. There will be one more player added. Hopefully that player will be a regular (e.g. Michaels) so Bernie, Phillips and Crosby will not be filling the 9th slot. But whether or not a regular, I agree that he needs to be a hitter.
I disagree, I think the Yankees will carry 12 pitchers.

Bub
12-29-05, 07:29 AM
I disagree, I think the Yankees will carry 12 pitchers.Seems like a waste of a position spot. That would leave 4 on the bench: Stinnet, Cairo, Williams and Crosby. Not enough....still need a defensive 1B other than Cairo.

Yankees1962
12-29-05, 07:37 AM
Seems like a waste of a position spot. That would leave 4 on the bench: Stinnet, Cairo, Williams and Crosby. Not enough....still need a defensive 1B other than Cairo.
Well, we can argue about wasted spots all day long, but I don't see the Yankees not having a long man in the pen this upcoming season along with 2 lefty relievers plus Mo, Farnsworth, Dotel and Sturtze/Procter which makes 12 pitchers. If all of the Yankee pitchers are healthy in late March, I can see the Yankees trading a starting pitcher and either Sturtze or Proctor if Dotel is ready, but that will still leave the Yankees with 12 pitchers.

Also, whether we like it or not, the Yankees have several players in their everyday lineup that will probably play between 150-162 games this upcoming season so the need to have five players on the bench is lessen.

RhodyYanksFan
12-29-05, 07:44 AM
I like it. Welcome back Miggy.

Bub
12-29-05, 07:45 AM
Well, we can argue about wasted spots all day long, but I don't see the Yankees not having a long man in the pen this upcoming season along with 2 lefty relievers plus Mo, Farnsworth, Dotel and Sturtze/Procter which makes 12 pitchers. If all of the Yankee pitchers are healthy in late March, I can see the Yankees trading a starting pitcher and either Sturtze or Proctor if Dotel is ready, but that will still leave the Yankees with 12 pitchers.

Also, whether we like it or not, the Yankees have several players in their everyday lineup that will probably play between 150-162 games this upcoming season so the need to have five players on the bench is lessen.Still, you can't go with just one utility infielder. If they went with 13 position players, the second utilitiy infielder would be Posada or Sheffield, and I just don't see it happening.

Sam18
12-29-05, 07:54 AM
Eh. Nice to have Cairo back though.

Yankees1962
12-29-05, 07:55 AM
Still, you can't go with just one utility infielder. If they went with 13 position players, the second utilitiy infielder would be Posada or Sheffield, and I just don't see it happening.
Cairo and Phillips are utility infielders. How many utility infielders they had last year?

mycroft
12-29-05, 07:55 AM
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :clap:

Nome
12-29-05, 08:00 AM
Because bench players are bench players for a reason and don't routinely have a "future". A young player wants to start and the attitude of coming off the bench is not there. Cairo WANTED to be here and is content with his role. I think this signing makes a lot of sense.

How do you think the typical rookie gets his start? As a bench player. Not all rookies can get starting jobs. By using Cairo you continue the precedent of not having roster spots to develop youth. I don't always to get my players through trades.

Andy

Bub
12-29-05, 08:01 AM
Cairo and Phillips are utility infielders. How many utility infielders they had last year?Cairo, Phillips, Williams, Stinnet and Crosby makes 5 bench players and 11 pitchers, unless you go with 1 utility outfielder, and that's not happening either.

Yankees1962
12-29-05, 08:01 AM
How do you think the typical rookie gets his start? As a bench player. Not all rookies can get starting jobs. By using Cairo you continue the precedent of not having roster spots to develop youth. I don't always to get my players through trades.

Andy
Exactly which young players you want to develop in place of Cairo?

Bub
12-29-05, 08:04 AM
How do you think the typical rookie gets his start? As a bench player. Not all rookies can get starting jobs. By using Cairo you continue the precedent of not having roster spots to develop youth. I don't always to get my players through trades.

AndyIt's too hard on this Yankee team....he'd be fortunate to get 10 starts. It's not like we have good players on the infield, we have all-stars and HOFers, and they ain't sittin'.

Yankees1962
12-29-05, 08:06 AM
Cairo, Phillips, Williams, Stinnet and Crosby makes 5 bench players and 11 pitchers, unless you go with 1 utility outfielder, and that's not happening either.
I'm not going to argue with you because that would be fruitless so we'll see what the roster looks like on April 1st.

Bub
12-29-05, 08:07 AM
I'm not going to argue with you because that would be fruitless so we'll see what the roster looks like on April 1st.I'm not arguing. If we're going with 12 pitchers, who are the 4 bench players?

Yankees1962
12-29-05, 08:10 AM
I'm not arguing. If we're going with 12 pitchers, who are the 4 bench players?
Ask me that question on April 1st, after the Yankees make their final trade before the season opens, but I still believe the Yankees will carry 12 pitchers.

23and2
12-29-05, 08:25 AM
I'm not arguing. If we're going with 12 pitchers, who are the 4 bench players?

I scratch away on my desk blotter the projected lineup and struggle with the same issue.. 11 or 12 pitchers. If it's 12, I think the bench consists of Bernie (DH/OF), Miggy (IF), Stinnett (C), Bubba (OF), Phillips or Snow (1B). That's 5 players (I count Bernie even though he's probably going to DH).

If we're talking 11 pitchers, then I'd like to see the Yanks get a more defensive oriented RF player, make Sheff the "regular" DH and make Bernie a true bench player.

BTW, am I far off calling Cairo a "Louis Sojo" type of player for the Yankees? Nobody commented on that comparison and I'm curious to what you all think.

PlsDontTearDownY.S.
12-29-05, 08:29 AM
Cool. He's the ideal bench player.

Allan
12-29-05, 08:47 AM
Exactly which young players you want to develop in place of Cairo?
This is not meant as a criticism of the Cairo signing, which I favour, but I'm willing to bet the Howard kid who we got for Womack will be given a long look as this type of role player.

yankees27
12-29-05, 08:48 AM
Solid signing. Welcome back Miguel!

gdn
12-29-05, 08:54 AM
That's a decent bench. Let's hope the '04 Crosby shows up.

ring403
12-29-05, 10:03 AM
How do you think the typical rookie gets his start? As a bench player. Not all rookies can get starting jobs. By using Cairo you continue the precedent of not having roster spots to develop youth. I don't always to get my players through trades.

There is a big difference between legitimate prospects and roster fill. Cano and Wang both had the talent to project to starting roles at the major league level. People like Phillips, Crosby, Escalona, and Thompson are very likely never going to be more than role players in the big leagues.
Signing a veteran, and a known quantity like Cairo blocks no one's progress. Real prospects rarely start out as utility men. They remain every day players at the minor league level until they are ready to move up.
BTW, Cairo was signed as a FA, not traded for.

YankClipper5
12-29-05, 10:07 AM
I scratch away on my desk blotter the projected lineup and struggle with the same issue.. 11 or 12 pitchers. If it's 12, I think the bench consists of Bernie (DH/OF), Miggy (IF), Stinnett (C), Bubba (OF), Phillips or Snow (1B). That's 5 players (I count Bernie even though he's probably going to DH).

If we're talking 11 pitchers, then I'd like to see the Yanks get a more defensive oriented RF player, make Sheff the "regular" DH and make Bernie a true bench player.

BTW, am I far off calling Cairo a "Louis Sojo" type of player for the Yankees? Nobody commented on that comparison and I'm curious to what you all think.

I agree on the Sojo comment. He is a reliable fielder all overthe infield and an all around solid player and very likeable. I was thinking about this last night with the roster spots. Ideally, although I think he is all but signed by AZ, I would like to see maybe Byrnes signed to play RF full time which would substantially improve OF defense while providing some decent depth. An alternative would be trading an either Pavano or Wright for a strong RF. I would like the see Sheff full time at DH because his defense is on the decline and as tough as he is it has to take a toll on his offense playing through injuries. I would really like to see a 1b signed, I am not comfortable with Phillips as the primary backup, although I want to see Giambi get the bulk of the 1b time, if he goes down with an injury, I have no faith that Phillips can hold down the fort. I think we can carry 11 pitchers even with the injury risk if we use them properly. I say Randy, Moose, Chacon, Wang, Wright or Pavano in the starting rotation. Small or wright or pavano in long relief. Villone and Farnsworth to set up and Myers as LOOGY. With Sturtze in the mix we have basically a long reliever and Villone who can spot start while still having a serviceable long reliever.

justinvarnes
12-29-05, 10:19 AM
Cairo, Phillips, Williams, Stinnet and Crosby makes 5 bench players and 11 pitchers, unless you go with 1 utility outfielder, and that's not happening either.

8 position players
12 pitchers
5 bench players
= 25 players

the thing that seems to be missing is that Bernie isn't on the "bench" he's in the lineup as DH. when he's on the bench, someone else is DH and cairo/phillips/stinnet/crosby are moved into the 8 position players.

Irabu's Son
12-29-05, 10:24 AM
We heart Miggy.

diehardyankeefan
12-29-05, 10:26 AM
Cairo is a good utility player and I'm glad to have him back. Tony Womack didn't fit well in the Yankees.

BJG
12-29-05, 10:29 AM
I think the issue is less that Cairo is blocking a guy like Escalona and more that the team is spending an extra 700K for the same basic player. In Yankee world, that's nothing, so it's not a huge deal this time, but the problem is that when you apply that out and start signing and then playing veterans who are actually much worse than their mid to late twenties AAA guys simply because they are veterans. The Cairo signing isn't a horrible example of that - Escalona's probably about the same as Cairo - but it is indicative of a flawed organizational philosophy.

Jasbro
12-29-05, 10:31 AM
8 position players
12 pitchers
5 bench players
= 25 players

the thing that seems to be missing is that Bernie isn't on the "bench" he's in the lineup as DH. when he's on the bench, someone else is DH and cairo/phillips/stinnet/crosby are moved into the 8 position players.

Actually, Cashman has EXPLICITLY said that Bernie is not going to be a full-time player this year:


"There are no promises in terms of playing time or a role," Cashman said. "The clear definition was, going into this, like any role player, that it would not be an everyday situation."

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051222&content_id=1286648&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

Yankees™
12-29-05, 10:34 AM
Nice signing.

rajah
12-29-05, 10:34 AM
I think the issue is less that Cairo is blocking a guy like Escalona and more that the team is spending an extra 700K for the same basic player. In Yankee world, that's nothing, so it's not a huge deal this time, but the problem is that when you apply that out and start signing and then playing veterans who are actually much worse than their mid to late twenties AAA guys simply because they are veterans. The Cairo signing isn't a horrible example of that - Escalona's probably about the same as Cairo - but it is indicative of a flawed organizational philosophy.

You are right that it would be cheaper and therefore better to use Escalona if he were the approximate equal of Cairo. But what evidence do you have that Excalona would match Cairo offensively?

As you say, this amount of money does not restrict the Y's making other moves. Having money allows the Y's not to take as many risks on players like Escalona. I do not see this as indicative of any flaw in the Y's "philosophy".

BJG
12-29-05, 10:34 AM
This is not meant as a criticism of the Cairo signing, which I favour, but I'm willing to bet the Howard kid who we got for Womack will be given a long look as this type of role player.

Howard is already stretched at 2B and should be more of a 3B. That means he really isn't fit for the role that we are talking about...you need someone on the bench capable of playing 2B an SS. It's also why Phillips and Cairo aren't both sharing the same role. Cairo is a middle infielder who can run a little and can't hit. Phillips is a corner guy who can hit lefties.

Babe Rules
12-29-05, 10:38 AM
Welcome back, Miggy!

BJG
12-29-05, 10:42 AM
You are right that it would be cheaper and therefore better to use Escalona if he were the approximate equal of Cairo. But what evidence do you have that Excalona would match Cairo offensively?

As you say, this amount of money does not restrict the Y's making other moves. Having money allows the Y's not to take as many risks on players like Escalona. I do not see this as indicative of any flaw in the Y's "philosophy".

ZIPS projects Escalona to hit .247/.311/.357 and Cairo to hit .262/.314/.352. I know projections are iffy, but in a basic sense, I think you can make a quick argument that the two will be fairly similar.

As I said, though, the problem is less in the difference between Cairo and Escalona and more in that it's the same kind of thing as moves that have been made when there is a bigger difference...like signing and giving at bats to Ruben Sierra and the like. This is just another move like that, just not as bad. However, because the Yankees are prone to make the bad move, I don't see any reason to believe that the thinking behind this signing is any better.

destelle
12-29-05, 10:43 AM
yeah!! love lil' egypt back in this role.
welcome back miggy!

Bub
12-29-05, 10:46 AM
8 position players
12 pitchers
5 bench players
= 25 players

the thing that seems to be missing is that Bernie isn't on the "bench" he's in the lineup as DH. when he's on the bench, someone else is DH and cairo/phillips/stinnet/crosby are moved into the 8 position players.Doesn't work. Somebody has to be the starting DH, and that person is not going into the field later in the game unless there's a catastrophe. If Bernie's the DH, the bench would include Stinnet, Cairo, and either Phillips or Crosby. Therefore, there's only 1 backup infielder or 1 backup outfielder, unless you use Sheffield or Posada as backups. Carrying 7 relievers is way out of the ordinary as well.

M&M61
12-29-05, 10:46 AM
Welcome back, Miggy.

Hopefully this time, you won't find your way into the starting lineup.

I do feel more confident that Robinson Cano can keep Cairo on the bench than I did when Miggy's competition was Enrique Wilson.

I'm not sure about Cairo's ability to play short, but I still like him much better than Escalona; and if Jeter should need a rest, A-Rod can still play short with Phillips or Cairo at third, so we're good.
I think that it would take an extreme situation to put A-Rod at ss for any length of time. You just don't move between those two positions unless you have a lot of experience doing it.

Jace
12-29-05, 10:47 AM
Glad to have him back. Gives us some flexibility.

I still wish we could add a bat with some pop to the bench. But now the bench is basically full, unless the Yankees are not married to the idea of having Phillips on the MLB roster.

Re-signing Bernie was just a bad move, and it shows more now. Our bench will be Stinnett, Cairo, Phillips, Bernie, Crosby. It could be better than that, and Bernie is the one who is going to be expected to be the "pop" off the bench when we could've found someone else to do a better job.

I think they try and sign/trade for another outfielder to replace Crosby. But who knows.

ring403
12-29-05, 10:51 AM
I think the issue is less that Cairo is blocking a guy like Escalona and more that the team is spending an extra 700K for the same basic player. In Yankee world, that's nothing, so it's not a huge deal this time, but the problem is that when you apply that out and start signing and then playing veterans who are actually much worse than their mid to late twenties AAA guys simply because they are veterans. The Cairo signing isn't a horrible example of that - Escalona's probably about the same as Cairo - but it is indicative of a flawed organizational philosophy.
I don't really begrudge the Yankees choosing a veteran over a rookie for a utility role. They already know that they can depend on Cairo to provide steady defense and passable offense at multiple positions. With a rookie, there come inevitable rookie mistakes and growing pains. If the price of a little peace of mind is $700,000, then so be it.
If we're talking about signing Tony Womack, instead of bringing up a real prospect like Cano, then I agree that it's a flawed philosophy, but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. If a guy like Duncan was ready today, I'm pretty sure he'd be penciled into the every day lineup going into the season.

DiMaggio5CF
12-29-05, 10:53 AM
Actually, Cashman has EXPLICITLY said that Bernie is not going to be a full-time player this year:

But until they get someone better, he's in.

Cashman isn't going to get someone worse to DH just because he told Bernie that he can't play everyday.

Personally, I think the Yankees should sign a real DH and then cut Small or Villone and stick with a 5-man bench.

But as the options are slim out there, until that better player is on the roster, Bernie is pretty much penciled in as the DH.

rajah
12-29-05, 10:55 AM
ZIPS projects Escalona to hit .247/.311/.357 and Cairo to hit .262/.314/.352. I know projections are iffy, but in a basic sense, I think you can make a quick argument that the two will be fairly similar.

As I said, though, the problem is less in the difference between Cairo and Escalona and more in that it's the same kind of thing as moves that have been made when there is a bigger difference...like signing and giving at bats to Ruben Sierra and the like. This is just another move like that, just not as bad. However, because the Yankees are prone to make the bad move, I don't gain confidence that the thinking behind this signing is any better.

I would like to have some action with ZIPS. I think I could make some money if this projection for Escalona is typical. Of course he won't get enough at bats anywhere to test it. Anyway, as you know, the Y's need someone with options at Columbus to fill in as a utility guy if one of the starters goes down and Cairo fills in there. Depth is important and I'm not sure the Yankee's thin system has anyone else but Escalona right now.

Although I do not fully agree, I am not going to contest your general statement about the Y's proclivity toward making the "wrong" move. You have a right to your opinion on that general topic.

But i will contend that signing a utility IFer like Cairo was not a "wrong" move.

obsessedyankeefan
12-29-05, 10:58 AM
Great signing. Welcome back Miggy! :clapping:

Evil Empire
12-29-05, 10:59 AM
Good to hear. Welcome back Miggs.

Tifoso
12-29-05, 11:03 AM
Fantastic news---finally.

Thanks for posting it John :)

BJG
12-29-05, 11:08 AM
I would like to have some action with ZIPS. I think I could make some money if this projection for Escalona is typical. Of course he won't get enough at bats anywhere to test it. Anyway, as you know, the Y's need someone with options at Columbus to fill in as a utility guy if one of the starters goes down and Cairo fills in there. Depth is important and I'm not sure the Yankee's thin system has anyone else but Escalona right now.

Although I do not fully agree, I am not going to contest your general statement about the Y's proclivity toward making the "wrong" move. You have a right to your opinion on that general topic.

But i will contend that signing a utility IFer like Cairo was not a "wrong" move.

AAA depth? Cosme, Howard, Thurston...it's not like we are talking about the second coming with any of these guys, Cairo and Escalona included.

Shaun4013
12-29-05, 11:29 AM
good signing.

Stupid Flanders
12-29-05, 11:30 AM
Bernie DOES have a role. He is the everyday DH on this team. I also think that he will put up better numbers than last year because he will have less aches and pains from playing the field. If BW is your WORST offensive player in the starting lineup, you have very little to worry about, in my opinion.Does it make any logical sense whatsoever to have your worst offensive player be your designated hitter?

Mean Linguine
12-29-05, 11:31 AM
Good contact hitter and dependable fielder. It's a no-brainer. That eradicates one mistake from last off-season. Now if they could just get Lieber back and undo the Wright signing..... ;)

Mean Linguine
12-29-05, 11:39 AM
Does it make any logical sense whatsoever to have your worst offensive player be your designated hitter?

That's no shame with that lineup. It's pretty tough NOT to be the worst when the other 8 are ARod, Sheff, Jeter, Matsui, Giambi, Damon, Jorge and Cano. He's the best DH you have, when your other choices are Phillips, Cairo, Bubba and Stinnett. Everybody knows that Bernie played like crap last year, but I'm willing to give him a chance in the DH/spare outfielder role. I still think he can be an effective hitter.

gold23
12-29-05, 11:40 AM
IN 206 career AB's, Escalona has a batting average of .209. Cairo is a .270 career hitter in 2700 career AB's. Cairo has shown, at the major league level, the ability to field all four infield positions capably. Escalona is probably the better defender, but to carry an absolute zero as a backup is gambling that nobody goes down at all over the course of the season.

I don't know where Escalona's projections come from, but probably similar to the ones that predicred Dave Eiland to be a front of the rotation starter.

Bub
12-29-05, 11:40 AM
Does it make any logical sense whatsoever to have your worst offensive player be your designated hitter?Sometimes. The DH is the next best offensive player following the best combination of offense and defense to fill the first 8 holes. They didn't go out and get a thumper who can't field, so Bernie's it for now.

PacerFlynn31
12-29-05, 11:45 AM
Miggy Miguel ma Belle!

I'm very happy to have our scrappy bulldog back.

puckmaster87
12-29-05, 11:49 AM
I think the issue is less that Cairo is blocking a guy like Escalona and more that the team is spending an extra 700K for the same basic player. In Yankee world, that's nothing, so it's not a huge deal this time, but the problem is that when you apply that out and start signing and then playing veterans who are actually much worse than their mid to late twenties AAA guys simply because they are veterans. The Cairo signing isn't a horrible example of that - Escalona's probably about the same as Cairo - but it is indicative of a flawed organizational philosophy.

Since when can Felix Escalona hit? Cairo is a proven utilityman who can run the bases well and doesn't strike out much.

YankClipper5
12-29-05, 11:53 AM
Sometimes. The DH is the next best offensive player following the best combination of offense and defense to fill the first 8 holes. They didn't go out and get a thumper who can't field, so Bernie's it for now.

While Bernie still has a good eye and I think in a reduced role and without playing the field he may be able to bat respectably. I still think the Yanks should go after an every day RF like Byrnes to improve the OF defense and allow Sheff to DH. It would be a huge upgrade because we can probably sign or trade an extra pitcher for an RF who can play better defense than Sheff and bring as good a stick to the plate as Bernie and probably with better speed on the bases.

Bub
12-29-05, 12:01 PM
While Bernie still has a good eye and I think in a reduced role and without playing the field he may be able to bat respectably. I still think the Yanks should go after an every day RF like Byrnes to improve the OF defense and allow Sheff to DH. It would be a huge upgrade because we can probably sign or trade an extra pitcher for an RF who can play better defense than Sheff and bring as good a stick to the plate as Bernie and probably with better speed on the bases.You're 100% right. Sheff is probably going to have his share of problems next year in the field, and he could get injured out there too. Why risk that when he's still such a good hitter? I'd rather have Bubba out there then have Bernie DH too. Best move would be the upgrade in right, as you say.

Pogie
12-29-05, 12:03 PM
But until they get someone better, he's in.

Cashman isn't going to get someone worse to DH just because he told Bernie that he can't play everyday.

Personally, I think the Yankees should sign a real DH and then cut Small or Villone and stick with a 5-man bench.

But as the options are slim out there, until that better player is on the roster, Bernie is pretty much penciled in as the DH.

A couple of comments:

1. I can see Sheffield DHing pretty often (and Giambi) with Crosby playing right field (or Phillips at 1B). Therefore Bernie will be ready off the bench.

2. There have been a lot of posts about playing young cheap players in utility roles. That doesn't happen here because of the Yankees financial situation. A team like Tampa Bay will bring up rookies to fill those roles (and not play often) but when their starter gets hurt, they have to call up another rookie. That's risky business and usually means low quality.
The Yankees can sign a veteran utility player and allow the the rookie play everyday in the minors. Then when the starter is injured, the rookie can get the call up, while you still have the veteran utility player there ready (and confident) for their role. If the Yanks still had a lot of quality players in the farm, this would be the best situation for the team. Just my opinion.

3. I definitely think that Cashman is planning on a pitcher getting injured and/or trading someone mid year. So I think Cash will hold onto as many pitchers as possible.

-Mark

ShaneTravis
12-29-05, 12:07 PM
While Bernie still has a good eye and I think in a reduced role and without playing the field he may be able to bat respectably. I still think the Yanks should go after an every day RF like Byrnes to improve the OF defense and allow Sheff to DH. It would be a huge upgrade because we can probably sign or trade an extra pitcher for an RF who can play better defense than Sheff and bring as good a stick to the plate as Bernie and probably with better speed on the bases.
I never understood the rational of posters clamoring for Byrnes but take him out of consideration for our outfield duties.
Thank You


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/diamondbacks/articles/1229dbacksnb1229.html
E. Byrnes agrees to deal
The Diamondbacks came closer to filling their center field vacancy as they closed in Wednesday on free agent Eric Byrnes.

Byrnes, who agreed to what is believed to be a one-year deal worth about $2.2 million, will undergo a physical examination today in Phoenix.

DiMaggio5CF
12-29-05, 12:12 PM
1. I can see Sheffield DHing pretty often with Crosby playing right field. Therefore Bernie will be ready off the bench.
That's still someone that has been listed as a bench player here being in the starting lineup.



2. There have been a lot of posts about playing young cheap players in utility roles. That doesn't happen here because of the Yankees financial situation. A team like Tampa Bay will bring up rookies to fill those roles (and not play often) but when their starter gets hurt, they have to call up another rookie. That's risky business and usually means low quality.
The Yankees can sign a veteran utility player and allow the the rookie play everyday in the minors. Then when the starter is injured, the rookie can get the call up, while you still have the veteran utility player there ready (and confident) for their role. If the Yanks still had a lot of quality players in the farm, this would be the best situation for the team. Just my opinion.
I agree that it's more valuable for a prospect to play everyday in the minors than to sit on the bench in the majors. But there are some non-prospects like Felix Escalona who provide a low-cost option.



3. I definitely think that Cashman is planning on a pitcher getting injured and/or trading someone mid year. So I think Cash will hold onto as many pitchers as possible.
That's fine, but that means going with a short bench until then. I'd rather go with a full bench with Proctor and Henn ready to fill in from the minors.

Yankees1962
12-29-05, 12:15 PM
That's fine, but that means going with a short bench until then. I'd rather go with a full bench with Proctor and Henn ready to fill in from the minors.
If you take a hard look at direct comments from Cashman, it leaves little doubt that he doesn't want Bernie to be the full-time DH and is probably going to make another move/trade before opening day.

dabomb2045
12-29-05, 12:17 PM
good pickup...I think all we have left to do is to pickup a DH/1B.

Pogie
12-29-05, 12:17 PM
I agree that it's more valuable for a prospect to play everyday in the minors than to sit on the bench in the majors. But there are some non-prospects like Felix Escalona who provide a low-cost option.

I don't know, I feel better with a veteran role player like Miggy in that position than Felix. When the game is on the line, who would you rather have?

YankeeFan1
12-29-05, 12:20 PM
Welcome back, Miguel.

AMYanks
12-29-05, 01:23 PM
But in the context of this move, we needed a backup infielder, one who is capable of playing middle infield especially. Perez, Andy Phillips, Ruben Sierra, etc... none of them can play a decent infield, if at all. Cairo can adequately back up all 4 infield positions, had a decent enough stick, and won't kill you in any particular facet of the game. He's a good all-around ball player, which is what you need for your infield utility man. Not someone who will hit a HR every so often but has no versatility on defense.

I'm fine with the Cairo signing, his return has nothing to do with it. It's Bernie being back that is the problem.

YankClipper5
12-29-05, 01:33 PM
I never understood the rational of posters clamoring for Byrnes but take him out of consideration for our outfield duties.
Thank You


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/diamondbacks/articles/1229dbacksnb1229.html
E. Byrnes agrees to deal
The Diamondbacks came closer to filling their center field vacancy as they closed in Wednesday on free agent Eric Byrnes.

Byrnes, who agreed to what is believed to be a one-year deal worth about $2.2 million, will undergo a physical examination today in Phoenix.

In other posts I said it was a moot point because he appeared to agree in principal with the D Backs but honestly if all he is getting is a year at 2.2 I would not be opposed to offering 2 years at 5 or 6 mil. I merely use Byrnes as a measuring point because he has a serviceable bat, good defense, and runs the bases well. He would be a good option if the goal is getting Sheff to serve primarily as DH.

Jasbro
12-29-05, 01:41 PM
I agree that it's more valuable for a prospect to play everyday in the minors than to sit on the bench in the majors. But there are some non-prospects like Felix Escalona who provide a low-cost option.


If Escalona is a non-prospect, then why scrimp over $700K with an unproven player, when we can get a known entity like Cairo?

$1mm in MLB is a very below-average salary. There is no reason to complain about a $1mm -$2mm for utility/bench player these days, especially on a team like the Yankees.

YankClipper5
12-29-05, 01:46 PM
If Escalona is a non-prospect, then why scrimp over $700K with an unproven player, when we can get a known entity like Cairo?

$1mm in MLB is a very below-average salary. There is no reason to complain about a $1mm -$2mm for utility/bench player these days, especially on a team like the Yankees.

PRECISELY! A guy of marginal talent who is yet to prove themselves at a major league level is risky. Just as I say with Phillips, in the event of injury, do we want these to be our primary backups? As you said Jasbro, 700k is pretty much nothing in MLB, not even enough to tack on as a bonus to try and attract a proven commodity. At the very least we have someone who shores up our infield defense and has experience that can be called upon.

rivera,s cutter
12-29-05, 01:58 PM
great to see him back

Dr. Gonzo
12-29-05, 02:07 PM
wait a sec, he hit .250 last year and gets a $100k pay raise?

Oh well, im glad to have him back. This team needs its token venezuelan now that Sojo is gone.
saying all vezenuelan's smoke or do drugs isn't appropiate.

sorry, couldn't resist

23and2
12-29-05, 02:30 PM
Miggy is a backup player and shouldn't start. That was the book on him when he came over to the Yanks. He struggled with the Mets last year where he started more games than he probably should.

Over the last three years, Miggy has had more success at Yankee Stadium vs his experience at Shea:

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right><TD>AVG</TD><TD>OBP</TD><TD>SLG</TD><TD>OPS</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD>.310</TD><TD>.365</TD><TD>.450</TD><TD>.815 (200 ABs at Yankee Stadium)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD>.253</TD><TD>.312</TD><TD>.330</TD><TD>.642 (194 ABs at Shea Stadium)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

As far as versatility, he spent the majority of his time filling in at 2B, but has also played LF, RF, 1B, 3B and SS.

If you're forced to start Miggy, you bat him ninth where in the last three years he put up these numbers:

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD>.297</TD><TD>.353</TD><TD>.406</TD><TD>.759 (229 ABs)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

He's not nearly as productive in any other spot in the batting order.

Evil Empire
12-29-05, 02:36 PM
Miggy is a backup player and shouldn't start. That was the book on him when he came over to the Yanks. He struggled with the Mets last year where he started more games than he probably should.

Over the last three years, Miggy has had more success at Yankee Stadium vs his experience at Shea:

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right><TD>AVG</TD><TD>OBP</TD><TD>SLG</TD><TD>OPS</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD>.310</TD><TD>.365</TD><TD>.450</TD><TD>.815 (200 ABs at Yankee Stadium)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD>.253</TD><TD>.312</TD><TD>.330</TD><TD>.642 (194 ABs at Shea Stadium)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

As far as versatility, he spent the majority of his time filling in at 2B, but has also played LF, RF, 1B, 3B and SS.

If you're forced to start Miggy, you bat him ninth where in the last three years he put up these numbers:

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD>.297</TD><TD>.353</TD><TD>.406</TD><TD>.759 (229 ABs)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

He's not nearly as productive in any other spot in the batting order.

Good, well researched post. I agree. I think he might be a good alternative to Bubba(when we need a little more offense) in Right Field when Sheff is DHing.

gold23
12-29-05, 02:42 PM
Cairo in the OF is not much different than Womack in the OF- he'd be a major black hole offensively and defensively would likely not be all that good.

What he IS good at, however, is a backup. He can go in and play the infield positions for a game, a few games, or long term if needed and not kill you. If he hit .270 with a .320 OBA and solid defense for a month while an infielder was hurt it would be perfectly fine. If Escalona was on the team, having a .210 hitter in the lineup for an extended period is terrible. Cairo isn't going to contribute a heck of a lot, but he's going to be a stopgap and not kill you- which is the perfect combo for a backup player.

flymick24
12-29-05, 03:06 PM
decent pickup... let's hope 2005 was an aberration

gdn
12-29-05, 03:26 PM
Miggy is a backup player and shouldn't start. That was the book on him when he came over to the Yanks. He struggled with the Mets last year where he started more games than he probably should.Except he had 360 ABs with the Yankees and 327 with the Mets. So he played less than with the Yankees.

Nome
12-29-05, 03:37 PM
I DON'T WANT CAIRO BACK, AND I DON'T WANT BERNIE BACK. It's time to use those roster spots for farm team players to develop. To me it doesn't matter who they might be, but I an CERTAIN that they will be better than Cairo and Bernie.

Andy

23and2
12-29-05, 03:40 PM
I DON'T WANT CAIRO BACK, AND I DON'T WANT BERNIE BACK. It's time to use those roster spots for farm team players to develop. To me it doesn't matter who they might be, but I an CERTAIN that they will be better than Cairo and Bernie.

Andy

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense.

yankeeman61
12-29-05, 03:40 PM
Good signing to bring back Cairo. His versatility is valuable for any bench. I was disappointed the Yanks opted for Womack instead of re-signing Cairo but I suppose it gave Cano his opportunity he might not have had otherwise. I think Cairo will get his AB's if the Yanks don't sign or carry another 1B. I get the sense that unless Phillips is given significant time at 1B (300-400 AB's) that he won't be very successful. As someone pointed out earlier, young players have a hard time coming off the bench periodically. Plus, I think Bernie will end up being the primary DH which will mean more 1B time for Giambi. I would really like to see what Phillips can do but I'm not convinced the Yanks feel that way. Torre is loyal to Bernie and unless he is awful Joe will use an ink pen on the lineup card for his DH spot.

23and2
12-29-05, 03:42 PM
Except he had 360 ABs with the Yankees and 327 with the Mets. So he played less than with the Yankees.

It's not the number of ABs, but how and when he gets them. He was being used as a regular starter for a good stretch for the Mets which saw his production decline. If he's used to spot fill, and off the bench, he's much more effective.

YankClipper5
12-29-05, 03:47 PM
I DON'T WANT CAIRO BACK, AND I DON'T WANT BERNIE BACK. It's time to use those roster spots for farm team players to develop. To me it doesn't matter who they might be, but I an CERTAIN that they will be better than Cairo and Bernie.

Andy

It is wrong to assume that a farm hand can come up and play a game or 2 and be effective. They are either career minor leaguers for a reason who will be taken out of their every day routine to sit on a bench and rot or prospects who can't develop their game because they aren't playing everyday. Add that to the pressure they will face if a regular goes down and they are all the sudden expected to anchor down a position for a team competing to win the best division in baseball. It just is not logical. You suggest use their roster spots to develop but you can not develop a player by sitting them on the bench. Sitting on a major league bench doesn't groom talent.

flymick24
12-29-05, 03:57 PM
It's not the number of ABs, but how and when he gets them. He was being used as a regular starter for a good stretch for the Mets which saw his production decline. If he's used to spot fill, and off the bench, he's much more effective.

plus, willie batted cairo in the 2 hole for much of the season, where he has no business being.

JeffWeaverFan
12-29-05, 04:09 PM
Hope he isn't needed much and when he does play he plays like he did in 2004. One thing about Miggy is he is one of the greatest sliders in the game. I always loved how he slid. I remember he had a great slide on Vagitek in the "Jeter Dive" game.

gdn
12-29-05, 04:21 PM
Actually, Cairo became a regular in June and even before that he had stretches of a more than a week when he played.

His log:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/players/gamelog?statsId=5586&year=2004

gdn
12-29-05, 04:22 PM
It's not the number of ABs, but how and when he gets them. He was being used as a regular starter for a good stretch for the Mets which saw his production decline. If he's used to spot fill, and off the bench, he's much more effective.

Actually, Cairo became a regular in June and even before that he had stretches of a more than a week when he played.

His log:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/players/gamelog?statsId=5586&year=2004

Yankees1962
12-29-05, 04:25 PM
Actually, Cairo became a regular in June and even before that he had stretches of a more than a week when he played.

His log:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/players/gamelog?statsId=5586&year=2004
I remember that Cairo got off to a good start, but got hurt. I don't remember what type of injury he had or whether it affected his performance, but I know he spent some time on the DL.

gdn
12-29-05, 04:27 PM
I remember that Cairo got off to a good start, but got hurt. I don't remember what type of injury he had or whether it affected his performance, but I know he spent some time on the DL.Really? I remember Wilson being given the starting job, then he got hurt and Cairo took over and never relinquished it. I could be mistaken.

Yankees1962
12-29-05, 04:32 PM
Really? I remember Wilson being given the starting job, then he got hurt and Cairo took over and never relinquished it. I could be mistaken.
Sorry, I'm talking about this past season, when both Cairo and Matsui had injury problems.

mickey mantle
12-29-05, 04:33 PM
solid pickup for the yanks i think.

gdn
12-29-05, 04:34 PM
Sorry, I'm talking about this past season, when both Cairo and Matsui had injury problems.Oh ok. I was responding to the guy who said that once Cairo got regular playing time, he started regressing. I was trying to disprove that from '04.

lem
12-29-05, 04:44 PM
Oh no! Not the regression of a bench player!

Just look at his competition - the 2005 Tony Womack and Rey Sanchez.

You can't possibly go wrong with this signing, no matter how hard you try.

YankeePride1967
12-29-05, 04:47 PM
Let's hope he has a significantly better year in 2006 than he did in 2005... and that he doesn't play much.

The only way he sees a lot of PT is if Cano/Jeter or A-Rod get hurt.

AMC
12-29-05, 05:00 PM
What the hell?

I think shroud was kidding because he's also from Venezuela. ;)

BJG
12-29-05, 05:47 PM
PRECISELY! A guy of marginal talent who is yet to prove themselves at a major league level is risky. Just as I say with Phillips, in the event of injury, do we want these to be our primary backups? As you said Jasbro, 700k is pretty much nothing in MLB, not even enough to tack on as a bonus to try and attract a proven commodity. At the very least we have someone who shores up our infield defense and has experience that can be called upon.

A guy of proven marginal talent isn't a risk, but he's a proven marginal talent. If that's what you want to settle for, so be it. These are the spots where you can afford to take a bit of a risk (versus loading the eveyday lineup with risks, which I wouldn't wan to do). Again, I'm not talking about Cairo per se, but more about a general Yankee philosophy where it's ok to give Ruben Sierra at bats because he's a veteran even though he isn't that good a hitter.

You can say the same thing about the JT Snow rumors. Is Snow a 'proven' major leaguer? Sure, but proven at what? If Giambi gets hurt, the Yankees are in trouble regardless of who replaces him, but at least with Phillips, there's a chance of production. With Snow, you know you'll get crap at this point in his career. Is Phillips a risk? Sure, but what are the benefits of not taking it? Below average production from Snow? Yeah!

BJG
12-29-05, 06:29 PM
It's not the number of ABs, but how and when he gets them. He was being used as a regular starter for a good stretch for the Mets which saw his production decline. If he's used to spot fill, and off the bench, he's much more effective.

Cairo played almost every day from June on with the Yankees. He certainly wasn't a spot starter. Heck, his best month with the Yankees was Septembe and he didn't get a day off.

I really don't think Cairo's role has anything to do with how he preformed...he just happened to have, for him, an unusually good year.

Nome
12-29-05, 06:39 PM
I've seen here over and over again that Cairo is a marginal player. And that he would do well as an occasional (rare) backup. Why not give that position to a young farmhand and let him grow into the position giving him more games. If he can't break into our supposedly solid lineup his trade value would increase because of what he showed with his limited playing time in the majors. Cairo has NO (Read that again as NO) upside potential.

To MHO this is a bad and stupid move. Another in a long line where we brought back failures

Andy

BJG
12-29-05, 06:44 PM
I've seen here over and over again that Cairo is a marginal player. And that he would do well as an occasional (rare) backup. Why not give that position to a young farmhand and let him grow into the position giving him more games. If he can't break into our supposedly solid lineup his trade value would increase because of what he showed with his limited playing time in the majors. Cairo has NO (Read that again as NO) upside potential.

To MHO this is a bad and stupid move. Another in a long line where we brought back failures

Andy

No prospect is going to get better getting 150 AB a year. That isn't to say that a mid to late twenties organizational player can't fill a role on the bench, but it's unlikely that those guys ever become regulars or trade bait. They can fill their role, though, at a low price.

Jasbro
12-29-05, 07:35 PM
I've seen here over and over again that Cairo is a marginal player. And that he would do well as an occasional (rare) backup. Why not give that position to a young farmhand and let him grow into the position giving him more games. If he can't break into our supposedly solid lineup his trade value would increase because of what he showed with his limited playing time in the majors. Cairo has NO (Read that again as NO) upside potential.

To MHO this is a bad and stupid move. Another in a long line where we brought back failures

Andy

Cairo wasn't a failure when he was here. In fact, he proved to be a tremendous value.

Besides, his role this go-round will be much different. Last time, he platooned at 2B with Enrique Wilson before winning the position outright as a starter -- and excelled in the process. This time, he is signed to be a back-up, nothing more. And for pennies.

And how much upside do we really need from a back-up to Cano, Jeter and ARod?

rajah
12-29-05, 07:39 PM
A guy of proven marginal talent isn't a risk, but he's a proven marginal talent. If that's what you want to settle for, so be it. These are the spots where you can afford to take a bit of a risk (versus loading the eveyday lineup with risks, which I wouldn't wan to do). Again, I'm not talking about Cairo per se, but more about a general Yankee philosophy where it's ok to give Ruben Sierra at bats because he's a veteran even though he isn't that good a hitter.

You can say the same thing about the JT Snow rumors. Is Snow a 'proven' major leaguer? Sure, but proven at what? If Giambi gets hurt, the Yankees are in trouble regardless of who replaces him, but at least with Phillips, there's a chance of production. With Snow, you know you'll get crap at this point in his career. Is Phillips a risk? Sure, but what are the benefits of not taking it? Below average production from Snow? Yeah!


I agree with you completely about Snow and Phillips, notwithstanding my relatively low opinion of Phillips. But there has been no confirmation that the Y's are even interested in Snow, only that some posters here are. I would be shocked and very disappointed if Snow were signed.

Cairo vs. Escalona is a different comparison. I grant that we know pretty much what we are getting with Cairo, a serviceable, albeit mediocre, major league player. But this is Escalona's upside, an unlikely upside.

bakntime
12-29-05, 07:42 PM
I've seen here over and over again that Cairo is a marginal player. And that he would do well as an occasional (rare) backup. Why not give that position to a young farmhand and let him grow into the position giving him more games. If he can't break into our supposedly solid lineup his trade value would increase because of what he showed with his limited playing time in the majors. Cairo has NO (Read that again as NO) upside potential.

To MHO this is a bad and stupid move. Another in a long line where we brought back failures

AndyIf there was such a person in the minors, he'd probably get a chance at the job. The problem is that any middle infielders we have in the minors either 1) need all the playing time they can get, or 2) just aren't skilled enough offensively and/or defensively to handle a utility role in the major leagues.

Cairo has proven he can play a solid utility role, including all infield positions. This is not something a young player can just suddenly jump into and be reliable.

bakntime
12-29-05, 07:49 PM
Oh, and Cairo didn't fail in the utility role. He was very, very solid. He played good defense, and had a .346 OBP - an excellent number for a part time player, especially a utility infielder. A utility player is rarely, if ever, a young player. Cairo fits the bill because he is an experienced vet who's proven he can handle NY and won't be upset over his limited role, and can be counted on to come off the bench when needed.

YankClipper5
12-29-05, 08:09 PM
A guy of proven marginal talent isn't a risk, but he's a proven marginal talent. If that's what you want to settle for, so be it. These are the spots where you can afford to take a bit of a risk (versus loading the eveyday lineup with risks, which I wouldn't wan to do). Again, I'm not talking about Cairo per se, but more about a general Yankee philosophy where it's ok to give Ruben Sierra at bats because he's a veteran even though he isn't that good a hitter.

You can say the same thing about the JT Snow rumors. Is Snow a 'proven' major leaguer? Sure, but proven at what? If Giambi gets hurt, the Yankees are in trouble regardless of who replaces him, but at least with Phillips, there's a chance of production. With Snow, you know you'll get crap at this point in his career. Is Phillips a risk? Sure, but what are the benefits of not taking it? Below average production from Snow? Yeah!

I agree somewhat. Cairo is definitely one of the better utility IFs in the game, and while I agree with you about Yankee philosophy, I don't think that an unproven non-prospect minor leaguer is suited for a role with a championship caliber team. They may get a hot bat here or there but I think the veteran presence is important, obviously not if used detrimentally, i.e. Sierra. He gave us good moments but playing him in RF, ever, was a mistake. Now getting a vet who can play well in the field and step up if need be, is the smarter choice over unproven, non-prospect talent. Guys like Phillips are career minor leaguers and while he may have talent, IMO it is best he play everyday in AAA ball and come up if we need him.

fredgmuggs
12-29-05, 09:54 PM
I see where Pokey Reese has signed a $800,000, 1 year deal with the Marlins. To be honest, I would have prefered signing Pokey and his glove over Cairo.... but that's water under the bridge now. I can live with Cairo as the utilty infielder.

Otto2687
12-30-05, 12:47 AM
wow, so then i guess its odd that none of you are GM's of a professional team

ryanthe13th
12-30-05, 12:56 AM
As long as Cairo is kept in the bench player role, than this signing will produce positive results.

23and2
12-30-05, 01:12 AM
wow, so then i guess its odd that none of you are GM's of a professional team

So, we can safely assume that you'll have nothing of substance to add to these conversations?

SheffRocks11
12-30-05, 03:51 PM
I'm glad to see you back Miguel!

Yankyfan
12-30-05, 10:24 PM
Back with Donnie Baseball to continue where they left off. :D

JDPNYY
12-30-05, 10:47 PM
wow, so then i guess its odd that none of you are GM's of a professional team

That often puzzles me as well Otto.

Darth_Takeo
01-05-06, 03:27 PM
It's officially official.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060105&content_id=1291716&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy

ZIM 2002
01-05-06, 04:32 PM
I'm really glad to have Miggy back - hopefully he will return to his 2004 form, where he showed he was a clutch player. He gave Donnie credit for his good hitting that year, and being back with him should help him improve over last year - or make him believe that it will help, which would have the same result if confidence helps hitting.

AMYanks
01-05-06, 04:36 PM
Welcome back, Miggy.

keithf1
01-05-06, 05:53 PM
Miggy was clutch. He had a lot of big plays for us and I'm glad he's back.

RobRiv
01-05-06, 08:26 PM
Great, now I'm officially happy to see you back on the Yankees, Mr. Cairo.
Be steady, and be clutch. This is all we ask of you... for now.

Casey37
01-05-06, 08:32 PM
Thank God. If there's one thing that I hated when watching Met games was the Arabic music they'd play when he came up to bat.

TEPLimey
01-05-06, 09:23 PM
Cairo is a great addition to the Yankees. He is a great team player. He knows his role. He loves playing for the Yankees, and he showed promise when he worked on his hitting with Mattingly (I recall he acknowledging Mattingly's influence on his improved hitting).

This is the type of signing that is perfect for rounding out the team. A few role players mixed in a lineup of AllStars.

flymick24
01-06-06, 01:51 AM
Thank God. If there's one thing that I hated when watching Met games was the Arabic music they'd play when he came up to bat.

i remember him coming out to a song by nelly when he was with the yankees, which might be just as bad as arabic music

whitefox
01-06-06, 07:23 AM
We should of given Bernie a management job and went out and brought a bat in!

DJ27
01-06-06, 07:30 AM
Cairo is a great addition to the Yankees. He is a great team player. He knows his role. He loves playing for the Yankees, and he showed promise when he worked on his hitting with Mattingly (I recall he acknowledging Mattingly's influence on his improved hitting).

This is the type of signing that is perfect for rounding out the team. A few role players mixed in a lineup of AllStars.

Agreed... Miggy is a great addition to this roster!

silverdsl
01-06-06, 07:38 AM
Cairo knows his role and does a good job of putting in 100% effort into doing the best that he can in that role even though he's only a backup infielder who doesn't play everyday. I'm glad to have him back.

-Deborah

gdn
01-06-06, 10:38 AM
Welcome back MigCar! Here's to hoping your season is more like 2004. :gulp:

CoyoteYankee
01-06-06, 10:55 AM
I wish he hadn't left last year! Welcome back Miggy!

CelerinoSanchez
01-06-06, 03:45 PM
So our five bench players are Stinnett, Cairo, Phillips, Bubba, & Bernie? Yikes!

HidekiIrabu
01-08-06, 02:13 PM
He can play every IF spot right?

JeffWeaverFan
01-08-06, 02:41 PM
He can play every IF spot right?
Yes. He's played every position in his career except CF, C, and P.

justinvarnes
01-08-06, 03:09 PM
Yes. He's played every position in his career except CF, C, and P.


Which is great, since the yankees can use him in many capacities. With Phillips being essentially JUST a 1B (yes, he can play LF, but I can only see him doing that in some extra inning goofiness), Stinnett is JUST a Catcher and Bernie is a sub-par OF at this point, Cairo will be needed mostly in the infield but occasionally in the OF.

Mariano226
01-09-06, 01:32 AM
I will forever love Cairo after that 13-inning affair against the Sox that they always play on Yankees Classics

Yankeeah
01-09-06, 01:40 AM
I wish he hadn't left last year! Welcome back Miggy!

I agree, however, then what happens with Cano? He probably wouldn't have gotten a shot, and probably traded this off-season.


So our five bench players are Stinnett, Cairo, Phillips, Bubba, & Bernie? Yikes!

I see us getting another bat and/or someone to allow Sheff to DH more

TheTinoMobile
01-09-06, 02:17 AM
I always liked Cairo!

mbn007
01-11-06, 12:19 PM
Which is great, since the yankees can use him in many capacities. With Phillips being essentially JUST a 1B (yes, he can play LF, but I can only see him doing that in some extra inning goofiness), Stinnett is JUST a Catcher and Bernie is a sub-par OF at this point, Cairo will be needed mostly in the infield but occasionally in the OF.
Andy has seen extensive time in his past at 3B, 2B, and LF. I think he has some RF experience also in his background. And my personal observations of him while he was in the minors is that he is no super fielder, he is far from a "butcher boy" in the field.

If needed, he will be able to fill in anywhere at these positions.

Yankeeah
01-13-06, 11:30 AM
Does anyone else think we should try Sheff/Matsui at DH and Miggy at RF/LF through out the season?

M&M61
01-13-06, 11:56 AM
Does anyone else think we should try Sheff/Matsui at DH and Miggy at RF/LF through out the season?
I hope that your tongue is stuck in your cheek.

Yankeeah
01-13-06, 01:32 PM
I hope that your tongue is stuck in your cheek.

Umm, ok. It's worth a shot, because it looks like we won't be adding a 4th OF. Miggy has played the outfield in the past. MIght as well try it in ST. If it doesn't work, no big deal.

Sam18
01-13-06, 01:36 PM
Umm, ok. It's worth a shot, because it looks like we won't be adding a 4th OF. Miggy has played the outfield in the past. MIght as well try it in ST. If it doesn't work, no big deal.

At this point IMO Cairo would be a better RF than Sheff. Its worth a shot.

BJG
01-13-06, 01:40 PM
Does anyone else think we should try Sheff/Matsui at DH and Miggy at RF/LF through out the season?

77 career OPS+ in a corner outfield spot for a guy who doesn't really appear to have that great an outfielder's defensive skill set?

Yankeeah
01-13-06, 03:16 PM
77 career OPS+ in a corner outfield spot for a guy who doesn't really appear to have that great an outfielder's defensive skill set?

61 career OF games isn't a big enough sample size, especially considering hes spent 10 innings in the OF the past 2 years. If Cairo is comfortable out there, can field the ball decently, and can hit decently (he;s our 8/9 hitter, we don't need him to hit .320) then I don't see why we wouldn't do it.

BJG
01-13-06, 03:25 PM
61 career OF games isn't a big enough sample size, especially considering hes spent 10 innings in the OF the past 2 years. If Cairo is comfortable out there, can field the ball decently, and can hit decently (he;s our 8/9 hitter, we don't need him to hit .320) then I don't see why we wouldn't do it.

I didn't say that his performance in the OF made his defense questionable, I said his skill set made it questionable. He's not overly fast. He has a 2B's arm. Etc.

When you throw in that he can't hit, it's not a good combo. Teams just can't carry a bat like Cairo's in what should be an offensive position and shrug it off. His '04 with the Yankees is way out of line with the rest of his career and even if he could somehow manage to repeat it, what was ok at 2B isn't at RF/LF/DH.

In all likelihood, we are talking about a below replacement level RF/LF. He's fine for the role he has because he's a decent defender at 2B and passable at SS, but beyond that is a stretch.

Mr. Mxylsplk
01-13-06, 03:29 PM
61 career OF games isn't a big enough sample size, especially considering hes spent 10 innings in the OF the past 2 years. If Cairo is comfortable out there, can field the ball decently, and can hit decently (he;s our 8/9 hitter, we don't need him to hit .320) then I don't see why we wouldn't do it.
A big enough sample size for what? 77 is his career ops+. He did considerably better than that as a yankee, but that's the only season of the past 4 where he was above that level. And that's not good for any outfielder, let alone a corner outfielder. The team should look for a backup outfielder who can hit better than that.

Yankeeah
01-13-06, 04:19 PM
I agree that we should look for someone else. However, if we do not come up with one, I think we should give Cairo a shot. I know typically RF is one of your power positions, if our line up was...

CF Damon
SS Jeter
DH Sheff
3B A-Rod
1B Giambi
LF Matsui
C Posada
2B Cano
RF Cairo

Then I think we could afford to use Cairo in right.

I am aware his 2004 was an outlier year, but Cairo said Mattingly helped his offense tremendously. Maybe he can continue and Cairo can return to 2004 form. I'm not banking on it, but it's worth a shot.


A big enough sample size for what? 77 is his career ops+.

My apologies, I thought he was saying that 77 was his career ops+ as an OF.

I'm not saying we should definetly do this. If we can't find someone else to do this, then I feel we should give it a shot. If it doesn't work, then so be it.

BJG
01-13-06, 04:27 PM
I'm not saying we should definetly do this. If we can't find someone else to do this, then I feel we should give it a shot. If it doesn't work, then so be it.

Cairo would be well below replacement level in RF. Finding someone better isn't all that hard.

Yankeeah
01-13-06, 05:48 PM
Cairo would be well below replacement level in RF. Finding someone better isn't all that hard.



I'm not saying we should definetly do this. If we can't find someone else to do this, then I feel we should give it a shot. If it doesn't work, then so be it.

Like I said, if we can't find someone else. And considering the market, it might be kind of hard. What available players can you think of out there?

BJG
01-13-06, 05:52 PM
Like I said, if we can't find someone else. And considering the market, it might be kind of hard. What available players can you think of out there?

By definition, you can always find a replacement level player. We're talking AAA organizational guys here. I have little doubt that Cairo would be worse than replacement level in RF.

Yankeeah
01-13-06, 10:51 PM
By definition, you can always find a replacement level player. We're talking AAA organizational guys here. I have little doubt that Cairo would be worse than replacement level in RF.

Well before you mentioned how you want offense. I highly doubt Bubba could put up offense like Cairo's (not that Miggy is great, but that Bubbas is that bad). I haven't seen enough of Kevin Reese/Thompson to say a lot, but I would imagine that if their offense was on-par with Cairo, they would already be up here.

I'm sure there is a better option out there, but name some names.

BJG
01-13-06, 11:43 PM
Well before you mentioned how you want offense. I highly doubt Bubba could put up offense like Cairo's (not that Miggy is great, but that Bubbas is that bad). I haven't seen enough of Kevin Reese/Thompson to say a lot, but I would imagine that if their offense was on-par with Cairo, they would already be up here.

I'm sure there is a better option out there, but name some names.

I'm not looking for more offense, I'm looking for the best overall player I can find for the position. The frightening thing is that Bubba projects to hit about the same as Cairo and he's a better defender. I don't want anything to do with Bubba in RF either. If I'm looking for someone better to play RF in the organization right now, Thompson, Reese, Vento, Jones, hell, put Phillips or Russ Johnson in RF. Put Melky in RF. Sign Hidalgo. Look at minor league free agents. It's not like they're good options, but they're better options than Cairo.

As for why they aren't up and Cairo is, Cairo is on the team because he can play 2B and SS.

Mark19
01-14-06, 12:07 AM
I agree with BJG

We should sign Hidalgo, Dustan Mohr or even Timo Perez or Terrence Long before we consider using Cairo as our RF.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-14-06, 12:11 AM
I'm not looking for more offense, I'm looking for the best overall player I can find for the position. The frightening thing is that Bubba projects to hit about the same as Cairo and he's a better defender.

Projections using ZiPS?

BJG
01-14-06, 08:17 AM
I agree with BJG

We should sign Hidalgo, Dustan Mohr or even Timo Perez or Terrence Long before we consider using Cairo as our RF.

And it's not like I want any of them, but given the choice between them and Cairo in RF, I'd take one of them.

BJG
01-14-06, 08:23 AM
Projections using ZiPS?

Zips, PrOPS, etc. If it makes you more comfortable, Bubba had a 67 OPS+ last year and Cairo a 64. Again, hope and pray that that isn't your RF, but if it is, take the better defender.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-14-06, 11:18 AM
Zips, PrOPS, etc. If it makes you more comfortable, Bubba had a 67 OPS+ last year and Cairo a 64. Again, hope and pray that that isn't your RF, but if it is, take the better defender.

I was just wondering what you were using. Bubba and Cairo both don't make me comfortable...

Kiwiwriter
01-14-06, 11:40 AM
I'm glad Cairo's back...you must have a good utility infielder on a winning team. Fred Stanley, Phil Linz, Luis Sojo, all come to mind. :)

RhodyYanksFan
01-14-06, 11:40 AM
And it's not like I want any of them, but given the choice between them and Cairo in RF, I'd take one of them.

I would gladly take Hidalgo. He's a good player, has playoff experience, and was also on the Mets so he knows NY.

SINCE77 2
01-14-06, 01:54 PM
I agree with BJG

We should sign Hidalgo, Dustan Mohr or even Timo Perez or Terrence Long before we consider using Cairo as our RF.


Long is the way to go without trading for someone better.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-14-06, 03:44 PM
Long is the way to go without trading for someone better.

Long is an average defender and is horrible offensively, he doesn't help anything...

ring403
01-14-06, 03:56 PM
We should sign Hidalgo, Dustan Mohr or even Timo Perez or Terrence Long before we consider using Cairo as our RF.I seroiusly doubt that the Yankees are considering Cairo as an OF option, except in an emergency situation.

SoCal Pinstriper
01-14-06, 04:21 PM
Long is the way to go without trading for someone better.Isn't DaVannon still available?

EdiT: SP

Mark19
01-14-06, 04:24 PM
Isn't Davannon still available?

EdiT: SP

DaVanon is still on the market but the reason he hasn't been signed may be due to some lingering injuries.

SINCE77 2
01-14-06, 05:59 PM
Long is an average defender and is horrible offensively, he doesn't help anything...


Would you rather have Hidalgo or Mohr? Perez perhaps? Long is actually above average in LF (much better glove than Matsui) and average in RF (better glove than Sheff). Considering that whomever he replaces will still be in the lineup in the DH spot I don't see any downside. He will bat 9th for goodness sake and is good w/RISP. I really don't see your point considering the very short list of FA available.

SINCE77 2
01-14-06, 06:01 PM
Isn't DaVannon still available?

EdiT: SP


I would be all over him, but there must be a reason for his continued availability.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-14-06, 06:33 PM
Would you rather have Hidalgo or Mohr? Perez perhaps?

Hidalgo is probably the best option out of those...



Long is actually above average in LF (much better glove than Matsui) and average in RF (better glove than Sheff).


His range in the outfield is rather average, considering his foot speed, and his arm is suited only to playing left or center.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6199

In addition his UZR from 2000-2003 was a -11 and his arm was a -1, so first off he is not above average. He has likely only gotten worst considering defense declines as one ages. Sheff was a -6, but he has gotten much worst. Anyway even if he is an improvement, it is a marginal one not offset by his offense...



Considering that whomever he replaces will still be in the lineup in the DH spot I don't see any downside. He will bat 9th for goodness sake and is good w/RISP.

Well considering his offense is comparable to Bubba Crosby and his defense is pathetic what would be the point exactly? The downside is that he would be a black hole in the lineup and provide poor defense...


I really don't see your point considering the very short list of FA available.

The point is Terrence Long isn't good and wouldn't help this team...

SINCE77 2
01-14-06, 07:28 PM
Hidalgo is probably the best option out of those...




http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6199

In addition his UZR from 2000-2003 was a -11 and his arm was a -1, so first off he is not above average. He has likely only gotten worst considering defense declines as one ages. Sheff was a -6, but he has gotten much worst. Anyway even if he is an improvement, it is a marginal one not offset by his offense...



Well considering his offense is comparable to Bubba Crosby and his defense is pathetic what would be the point exactly? The downside is that he would be a black hole in the lineup and provide poor defense...


The point is Terrence Long isn't good and wouldn't help this team...



Hidalgo is abyssymal vs lefties and very poor vs righties. Just another swing for the fences guy who offers little value offensively but offers a defensive upgrade.


Long's arm is good enough to hit the cutoff man which is all that concerns me and his defense is still better than Matsui or Sheff. To call his defense pathetic is an overexaggeration and fallacious. UZR stats are as subjective as any other defensive stat out there so I wouldn't bet the farm on them.


Long has been in the majors for about 5 or six years. Although he hasn't shown the power that some projected him to have he has always been more talented than 1/2 ML season Bubba. Bubba has shown zero on the ML level to suggest otherwise.

BJG
01-14-06, 07:33 PM
Again, the point is not that any of these guys are good or that any of them belong on the Yankees. It's more just to illustrate how bad a choice Cairo would be in RF if these guys are better coices.

SINCE77 2
01-14-06, 07:42 PM
Again, the point is not that any of these guys are good or that any of them belong on the Yankees. It's more just to illustrate how bad a choice Cairo would be in RF if these guys are better coices.


Where is Shane Spencer when you need him?

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-14-06, 07:53 PM
Hidalgo is abyssymal vs lefties and very poor vs righties. Just another swing for the fences guy who offers little value offensively but offers a defensive upgrade.

Honestly, are you just making things up? 3 year splits show that Hidalgo has been pretty even vs lefties and righties, actually putting up above average numbers over the past 3 years offensively.
.245 BA .330 OBP .473 SLG .803 OPS vs. Left
.266 BA .331 OBP .490 SLG .821 OPS vs. Right
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=5896&type=batting3

Hidalgo has actually shown amazing offensive seasons multiple times and career wise is an above average hitter (OPS+ 111). Long has shown a few seasons of average play and equally ones that are horrible (career OPS+ 91). I don't really see how one could argue that Long is a better offensive player than Hidlago or even that one has more potential because both are around 30 too.



Long's arm is good enough to hit the cutoff man which is all that concerns me and his defense is still better than Matsui or Sheff. To call his defense pathetic is an overexaggeration and fallacious.
I could hit the cutoff man, anybody can, if thats what concerns you than I should play left or right. I've shown you scouting reports as well as showed statistical evidence that Long is a poor defender, if you could show otherwise with some backing then I can see your argument, otherwise your wrong...


UZR stats are as subjective as any other defensive stat out there so I wouldn't bet the farm on them.

They actually aren't subjective at all, you could argue they do fluctuate from year to year but in this case I am showing you 3 year splits which are actually very accurate. I suggest you read up on them before you pass anymore judgements on the system.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primate_studies/discussion/lichtman_2003-03-14_0/



Long has been in the majors for about 5 or six years. Although he hasn't shown the power that some projected him to have he has always been more talented than 1/2 ML season Bubba. Bubba has shown zero on the ML level to suggest otherwise.

Yeah he probably has shown better offensive potential than Bubba but he still isn't good on either side of the field, and I would much rather have Hudalgo. Who has shown great offensive potential along with being one of the best rightfielders in the game throughout his career...

SINCE77 2
01-14-06, 08:13 PM
Honestly, are you just making things up? 3 year splits show that Hidalgo has been pretty even vs lefties and righties, actually putting up above average numbers over the past 3 years offensively.
.245 BA .330 OBP .473 SLG .803 OPS vs. Left
.266 BA .331 OBP .490 SLG .821 OPS vs. Right
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=5896&type=batting3

Hidalgo has actually shown amazing offensive seasons multiple times and career wise is an above average hitter (OPS+ 111). Long has shown a few seasons of average play and equally ones that are horrible (career OPS+ 91). I don't really see how one could argue that Long is a better offensive player than Hidlago or even that one has more potential because both are around 30 too.


I could hit the cutoff man, anybody can, if thats what concerns you than I should play left or right. I've shown you scouting reports as well as showed statistical evidence that Long is a poor defender, if you could show otherwise with some backing then I can see your argument, otherwise your wrong...


They actually aren't subjective at all, you could argue they do fluctuate from year to year but in this case I am showing you 3 year splits which are actually very accurate. I suggest you read up on them before you pass anymore judgements on the system.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primate_studies/discussion/lichtman_2003-03-14_0/



Yeah he probably has shown better offensive potential than Bubba but he still isn't good on either side of the field, and I would much rather have Hudalgo. Who has shown great offensive potential along with being one of the best rightfielders in the game throughout his career...




Hidalgo hit .157 vs LHP and .244 vs RHP in 2005. Those are the facts. I'm more interested in what he has done lately as opposed to his 3 year splits. No where did I argue that Long was the better player, just the better choice imo.


Were you one of those people that went ohhh and ahh everytime Mondesi threw the ball from the outfield to the infield? Do you do the same when Sheff throws the ball? I can count on one hand how many times a rifle armed guy throws out someone at 2B or homeplate over the course of a regular season. It is not as important as arm accuracy or the ability to hit the cutoff man.


You know whats not subjective? The computer that keeps checks and balances on the homeplate umpires with regard to balls and strikes. Any stat whose basis is derived by via human vision and subsequent human interpretation is subjective.

Mark19
01-14-06, 08:55 PM
Now that we have completely gone off on a tangent, I just want to throw out there that I expect the Yankees to throw out some ST invites to guys like Dustan Mohr, Timo Perez and Jamal Strong just to see who impresses them most and can give Bubba the most competition in ST.

While I wouldn't be shocked if we gambled on a veteran like Bobby Higginson or Richard Hidalgo, the odds are worse that one of them will really show something.