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wileedog
12-21-05, 05:33 PM
At this time, I prefer Johnnie Walker Blue, and The Glenlivet which I got for my birthday last year from a roommate.. so much smoother than most of the trash that im used to drinking.

Unfortunately the price of single malts has skyrocketed lately, but if you find yourself with some money burning a hole in your pocket try Lagavulin or Oban.

Glenmorangie is a little less expensive and also very good.

All of them make JDPNYY much funnier.... ;)

JfromJersey
12-21-05, 05:34 PM
Will Damon be clean shaven for his Press Conference... will he fool us all and come out with a fake beard and wig a la the Dunkin Donuts commercial.

It would be funny if he's not only clean shaven, but bald as well. I could see him going from 1 extreme to the other.

JfromJersey
12-21-05, 05:36 PM
What's the deal with his wife? Is she another Anna Benson?

NYYBombshell
12-21-05, 05:36 PM
What's the deal with his wife? Is she another Anna Benson?


I don't think we're allowed to talk about player's wives, especially now that said player is a Yankee.

StaceyRosie
12-21-05, 05:37 PM
What's the deal with his wife? Is she another Anna Benson?

She's a whore...so yes she is.

Dozer
12-21-05, 05:39 PM
Dunno if this was posted, but Damon was on WEEI. He says Yanks initially offered him 5/60 but he prefered 4/52 instead. Also said another team offered him 6 years.

Mr. Mxylsplk
12-21-05, 05:42 PM
Dunno if this was posted, but Damon was on WEEI. He says Yanks initially offered him 5/60 but he prefered 4/52 instead. Also said another team offered him 6 years.
Wow. I'm glad he preferred the 4 year deal, because I sure do. I can't believe someone was willing to go 6. That seems pretty dumb if it's true.

mhmajp
12-21-05, 05:43 PM
I can't understand it. There is factual evidence that supports Jeter leading off over Damon, and none that supports the opposite.

I'd like to see Jeter at lead off as well, but there is one fact that supports it: Jeter is also a significantly better #2 hitter than Damon.

wileedog
12-21-05, 05:43 PM
Wow. I'm glad he preferred the 4 year deal, because I sure do. I can't believe someone was willing to go 6. That seems pretty dumb if it's true.

I was thinking that about 5.

Dozer
12-21-05, 05:44 PM
I'd like to see Jeter at lead off as well, but there is one fact that supports it: Jeter is also a significantly better #2 hitter than Damon.
Honestly, Jeter should be leading off with his nice .400 OBP. Damon will be lucky to get back to .350 obp again. He might be a nice #9 candidate.

Tifoso
12-21-05, 05:44 PM
I was thinking that about 5.


and then you ate dinner, and changed your mind?

Jace
12-21-05, 05:44 PM
What's the deal with his wife? Is she another Anna Benson?

She goes something like this:

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/Michelle_Damon_APP.jpg

(yes that is actually her)

Anna Benson is a pretty good adjective

I just got to wondering if posting that picture violates community standards or something. Ive just never seen a pic like that on this site before. Someone should let me know.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-21-05, 05:44 PM
I'd like to see Jeter at lead off as well, but there is one fact that supports it: Jeter is also a significantly better #2 hitter than Damon.

Damon has to hit one or two, considering Jeter is predominantly a hitter who hits the opposite way, it would make more sense to back him second...

38Special
12-21-05, 05:46 PM
The funniest part is Boston-area people saying that Johnny sold out. Why do they think he came to the Red Sox in the first place?

Tifoso
12-21-05, 05:47 PM
The funniest part is Boston-area people saying that Johnny sold out. Why do they think he came to the Red Sox in the first place?

Word. :)

mhmajp
12-21-05, 05:47 PM
That's how the lineup should be to start off the year. If he stinks it up in the #2 slot, then switch 'em.

I'd like to see:

Jeter
Damon
A-Rod
Giambi
Sheff
Matsui
Cano
Posada
DH

I wouldn't mind switching A-Rod/Giambi.


I agree completely, although I'd rather Alex get a shot every first inning than not.

NYYBombshell
12-21-05, 05:48 PM
The funniest part is Boston-area people saying that Johnny sold out. Why do they think he came to the Red Sox in the first place?



He sure as hell wasn't going to win anything staying in KC.

Tifoso
12-21-05, 05:54 PM
He sure as hell wasn't going to win anything staying in KC.

Oakland, amica mia. ;)

Kulish29
12-21-05, 05:56 PM
She's a whore...

She is? Is she on MySpace?

CoyoteYankee
12-21-05, 05:59 PM
I'm okay with either Jeter or Damon leading off. How adept is Damon at bunting to move runners over? I'm just happy to get A-Rod out of the 2 hole and into the 3 hole.

Dozer
12-21-05, 06:08 PM
How adept is Damon at bunting to move runners over?
Not adept at all.

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 06:09 PM
Not adept at all.

Well he should feel right at home.;)

CoyoteYankee
12-21-05, 06:12 PM
Not adept at all.

Then maybe Jeter would be better in the 2 spot? Manufacturing runs. Get a speedy guy on. Bunt him over (or perhaps steal) and let the big boppers drive 'em in.

JDPNYY
12-21-05, 06:14 PM
I like John's jokes. :)

Thank you.

Dozer
12-21-05, 06:16 PM
Then maybe Jeter would be better in the 2 spot? Manufacturing runs. Get a speedy guy on. Bunt him over (or perhaps steal) and let the big boppers drive 'em in.
I guess... this assumes Damon can keep up an OBP above .350. His speed is dimished, he won't steal more than 20 anymore, but is still decent running the bases.

I can see Torre sticking with Damon even if he stuggles and his OBP dips to .340 or worse. That's the big worry here.

yankswn23
12-21-05, 06:17 PM
You can dislike this signing for a variety of reasons, but Damon's defensive skill isn't one of them.
Yeah and its also harder to judge the ball off the wall and in the corner in Boston. ANd if you would have told me we got Damon in the Offseason, and didnt lose any of our prospects and didnt trade Cano or Wang I would have been happy.

Spiker101
12-21-05, 06:24 PM
Then maybe Jeter would be better in the 2 spot? Manufacturing runs. Get a speedy guy on. Bunt him over (or perhaps steal) and let the big boppers drive 'em in.

There won't be much manufacturing of runs with this lineup. It'll be mass production.

Dozer
12-21-05, 06:25 PM
There won't be much manufacturing of runs with this lineup. It'll be mass production.
Exactly, anytime you give up an out needlessly, you help the other team.

Play for 10 runs not 1 (if that).

Spiker101
12-21-05, 06:27 PM
So here is my all-BOS/NYY team of the 1980s-Present. Who am I forgetting?


PITCHING STAFF

SP Roger Clemens
SP David Cone
SP David Wells

RP Ramiro Mendoza
RP Alan Embree
RP Mike Myers
RP Tom Gordon
RP Mike Stanton
RP Tony Fossas


STARTING LINEUP

LF Rickey Henderson
CF Johnny Damon
3B Wade Boggs
RF Jose Canseco
1B John Olerud
C Jim Leyritz
2B Mark Bellhorn
DH Tony Clark
SS Rey Sanchez


BENCH

C Mike Stanley
C John Flaherty
3B Mike Lowell

edit: had LF/RF switched

Mike Torrez (Sp?) and how could you forget Sparky Lyle.

ComeBackShane47
12-21-05, 06:29 PM
Is there any chance Damon doesn't lead off? I mean Jeter should be numbers wise, it seems clear that he should, but still everyone automatically thinks Damon should. But will he?

Zimmers' Helmet
12-21-05, 06:31 PM
Mike Torrez (Sp?) and how could you forget Sparky Lyle.
He didn't forget neither. He clearly stated that this was his All-Yankee/Red Sox team since the 1980's - present.

Mike Torrez last played for the Yankees in 1977, and Sparky Lyle in 1978.

yankeesAZ
12-21-05, 06:31 PM
You have 3 guesses as to what team that person roots for and the first 2 don't count.

I think Jim Caple created that auction after reading his rant on ESPN.

CoyoteYankee
12-21-05, 06:32 PM
Exactly, anytime you give up an out needlessly, you help the other team.

Play for 10 runs not 1 (if that).

I agree that early in games with the lineup the Yankees have that outs should not be given up. However there were times last year in close and late games (or extras) where I wish the Yankees had the ability to manufacture runs instead of waiting for the big bomb.

#7forever
12-21-05, 06:35 PM
Better call the "Queer eye" guys, Johnny's gonna need a H-U-G-E makeover.

Panamaniac42
12-21-05, 06:36 PM
Johnny Damon's webmaster has a lot of work to do:

http://www.johnnydamon.net/

Start by changing the hideous green and getting rid of ads for "Keep the Faith" bracelets and Bostondirtdogs.com

Dozer
12-21-05, 06:37 PM
Is there any chance Damon doesn't lead off? I mean Jeter should be numbers wise, it seems clear that he should, but still everyone automatically thinks Damon should. But will he?
Thats what I have been questioning. The talking heads claim that Damon is the best leadoff hitter in the ML if not the AL. They obviously don't know about Jeter.

It's all on Damon to see if he can get on at a good clip. 13 million will be a tough pill if he regresses to a weak armed CF, with no power who gets on base just 30% of the time.

Johnny O
12-21-05, 06:44 PM
I guess... this assumes Damon can keep up an OBP above .350. His speed is dimished, he won't steal more than 20 anymore, but is still decent running the bases.

I can see Torre sticking with Damon even if he stuggles and his OBP dips to .340 or worse. That's the big worry here.

I also think that's a legit worry - he didn't BB that much for a lead-off hitter (although he's had better BB rates in the past), and his OBP was heavily dependent on his BA. If he hits .290, his OBP will be down quite a bit unless he commits himself to taking more pitches. Leaving Fenway for YS is bound to suppress hs BA. The optimal lineup now would have Damon hitting in the bottom three and stack the OBP at the top.

Funny how his long hair and idiot persona has led many in the mainstream media to severely overrate Damon, he's an above average player, but hardly a star. His impact will be much less than expected, and his loss to the Red Sox as well.

ZYanksRule
12-21-05, 06:48 PM
Wow, Peter Gammons looked like his doggie died a few minutes ago on Sportscenter :lol:

It was really funny.

CoyoteYankee
12-21-05, 06:49 PM
Wow, Peter Gammons looked like his doggie died a few minutes ago on Sportscenter :lol:

It was really funny.
Well that decides it then. $52 million just paid for itself!

Panamaniac42
12-21-05, 06:49 PM
anyone know when the press conference is?

sorry if that has been asked/answered already.

NYYBombshell
12-21-05, 06:49 PM
Wow, Peter Gammons looked like his doggie died a few minutes ago on Sportscenter :lol:

It was really funny.



:nopity:



My heart bleeds for him, really.

Tifoso
12-21-05, 06:50 PM
anyone know when the press conference is?

sorry if that has been asked/answered already.

Friday, apparently. Can someone capture it/link us when it happens?

CoyoteYankee
12-21-05, 06:50 PM
anyone know when the press conference is?

sorry if that has been asked/answered already.

It was but we won't kill you for it. Probably after the physical (tomorrow).

NYYBombshell
12-21-05, 06:51 PM
anyone know when the press conference is?

sorry if that has been asked/answered already.



It'll more than likely be on Friday after his physical.

yankeebot
12-21-05, 06:51 PM
I asked in the Red Sox thread but did not get an answer. Anybody hear anything from Schmoopy on this? He has been eerily quiet so far this off-season.

Bodu713
12-21-05, 06:52 PM
It's funny, from the reactions that I've read today on both Yankee and Sox sites, Yankee fans only seem to be really happy about the fact that they got Damon away from the Sox and Sox fans seem to really only be pissed off that Damon went to the Yankees. Put me in the camp that thinks this just feels more weird than anything and that he's being way overpaid for this gig, but if he stays healthy the Yankees got themselves a good player.

Mr. Mxylsplk
12-21-05, 06:55 PM
It's funny, from the reactions that I've read today on both Yankee and Sox sites, Yankee fans only seem to be really happy about the fact that they got Damon away from the Sox
You sure you've been reading carefully? There are certainly people with differing opinions of the signing, but there are certainly an awful lot of people who are happy because Damon makes the yankees better.

yankeesAZ
12-21-05, 06:57 PM
It's funny, from the reactions that I've read today on both Yankee and Sox sites, Yankee fans only seem to be really happy about the fact that they got Damon away from the Sox and Sox fans seem to really only be pissed off that Damon went to the Yankees. Put me in the camp that thinks this just feels more weird than anything and that he's being way overpaid for this gig, but if he stays healthy the Yankees got themselves a good player.

This is not really a signing that blows me away, but simply addresses our need in CF. However, it sure is fun reading all the rants and cries of "traitor" from Sox fans and the media. Perhaps he is overpaid, but its only 4 years.

NYYBombshell
12-21-05, 06:57 PM
I asked in the Red Sox thread but did not get an answer. Anybody hear anything from Schmoopy on this? He has been eerily quiet so far this off-season.


He'll chime in sometime.

Bodu713
12-21-05, 06:59 PM
You sure you've been reading carefully? There are certainly people with differing opinions of the signing, but there are certainly an awful lot of people who are happy because Damon makes the yankees better.

Are you sure you have been reading carefully? I don't disagree that people are looking at the positive that he makes the Yankees a better team this year. But most seem to more excited about the fact that it makes the Sox worse off for next year. Had come from say, Oakland, people would be less excited because of the money he's getting.

CoyoteYankee
12-21-05, 07:14 PM
Are you sure you have been reading carefully? I don't disagree that people are looking at the positive that he makes the Yankees a better team this year. But most seem to more excited about the fact that it makes the Sox worse off for next year. Had come from say, Oakland, people would be less excited because of the money he's getting.

There is no doubt that any move that weakens your fiercest competitor automatically makes it a better move than if it just further weakened an already weak team.

montrealer
12-21-05, 07:14 PM
Are you sure you have been reading carefully? I don't disagree that people are looking at the positive that he makes the Yankees a better team this year. But most seem to more excited about the fact that it makes the Sox worse off for next year. Had come from say, Oakland, people would be less excited because of the money he's getting.


Blue Jays scare me more than the Sox.

diehardyanksfan26
12-21-05, 07:14 PM
I can just see Joe's plan right now...Sheff DH's, Matsui plays left, Damon plays right, Bernie plays center full time ;)

Spiker101
12-21-05, 07:15 PM
Are you sure you have been reading carefully? I don't disagree that people are looking at the positive that he makes the Yankees a better team this year. But most seem to more excited about the fact that it makes the Sox worse off for next year. Had come from say, Oakland, people would be less excited because of the money he's getting.

That's because Oakland is less of a threat to the Yanks postseason hopes than Boston. If he came from the White Sox, I'd be even more excited than I am now. I don't care about the money. I'm not sure I understand why everybody else is. That GS's business.

yankeebot
12-21-05, 07:16 PM
I can just see Joe's plan right now...Sheff DH's, Matsui plays left, Damon plays right, Bernie plays center full time ;)I know you are just kidding but is Joe bashing really necessary right now? It just kind of wears on me.

diehardyanksfan26
12-21-05, 07:21 PM
I know you are just kidding but is Joe bashing really necessary right now? It just kind of wears on me.

obviously i'm kidding...lol...really though I think Damon is a real good addition (except for his arm) and a 4 year deal isn't that bad

YankeePride1967
12-21-05, 07:21 PM
Has Juan Pierre or Sierra Mist offered their views yet?

Mr. Mxylsplk
12-21-05, 07:21 PM
Are you sure you have been reading carefully? I don't disagree that people are looking at the positive that he makes the Yankees a better team this year. But most seem to more excited about the fact that it makes the Sox worse off for next year.
And again, I see little in this thread to support your characterization.

NYYBombshell
12-21-05, 07:23 PM
Mike Adams on WEEI thinks the Sox should sign Roger Clemens to counter this.

Tifoso
12-21-05, 07:23 PM
Has Juan Pierre or Sierra Mist offered their views yet?


:birthday: :birthday: :birthday: :birthday:

yankeebot
12-21-05, 07:24 PM
Mike Adams on WEEI thinks the Sox should sign Roger Clemens to counter this.Can he play CF and lead off?

BillBuckner
12-21-05, 07:26 PM
Have you seen his numbers away from Fenway? He also isn't near what he used to be defensively.
And Mickey Mantle is injury prone and strikes out too much.

Johnny O
12-21-05, 07:32 PM
And Mickey Mantle is injury prone and strikes out too much.

Huh? Mantle was an immortal and Damon is an above average player.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 07:37 PM
Are you sure you have been reading carefully? I don't disagree that people are looking at the positive that he makes the Yankees a better team this year. But most seem to more excited about the fact that it makes the Sox worse off for next year. Had come from say, Oakland, people would be less excited because of the money he's getting.


I love the fact that this puts the Sox in chaos. Luccino's press conference today was one I savor for a long time.

That being said, there is no way you can spin this that it does not make the Yankees better. They get a leadoff hitter who can play CF, who batted .316 last year with an injured shoulder for much of the second half. He's 32? So what, Bubba is 29.

He can still be a decent DH in the last year or two of his contract if need be. We're paying Sheffield what? $13 million? For a 36 year old OK RF with a great bat--even at 36. I see Damon in this role in year 3 to 4.

Cashman stated when he re-upped last month that the combination of the Yankee money with a better decision making process could wreck havoc on the rest of baseball. I believe the words were "God help the rest of baseball."

This is the first salvo of the Yankee apocalypse.

keyserhh
12-21-05, 07:42 PM
He can still be a decent DH in the last year or two of his contract if need be. We're paying Sheffield what? $13 million? For a 36 year old OK RF with a great bat--even at 36. I see Damon in this role in year 3 to 4.


lol.
sheffield had multiple years of a 1000+OPS, and even HE, with his amazing bat speed and great conditioning, has dropped over 100 ops points over 2 years.

last year damon was an 805 ops. are you prepared for a 680 ops right fielder in 2 years?

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 07:42 PM
Wow, Peter Gammons looked like his doggie died a few minutes ago on Sportscenter :lol:

It was really funny.

I'll have to see the rerun. Combined with Luccino's press conference, this is just too much joy for one day.

Johnny O
12-21-05, 07:44 PM
Can he play CF and lead off?

If Boston signed Clemens and filled CF & SS with two league average players, they would win the east.

Of course this is fantasy, but the point is it's December and the Sox aren't in nearly as bad shape as many in the media would have you believe. Renteria was pretty horrible last year and the lineup still boasts Manny, Ortizzle, Varitek, Nixon with new additions Lowell & Graffinino and Youkilis ready to take over at 1B. Marte is really ready to play at the MLB level if needed (if Youkilis or Lowell scuffle) and is a potential star. I do believe they also have Petagine and of course they have a lot of arms.

Damon leaving is a much greater PR fiasco than an on-field issue.

Jen19
12-21-05, 07:44 PM
I am happy we got a great leadoff hitter but I'm still worried about his weak arm in CF...

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 07:49 PM
lol.
sheffield had multiple years of a 1000+OPS, and even HE, with his amazing bat speed and great conditioning, has dropped over 100 ops points over 2 years.

last year damon was an 805 ops. are you prepared for a 680 ops right fielder in 2 years?

And even with a drop of 100 OPS, Sheff still hit close to .300 and had over 30 HR and 100 RBI. That was with a nagging shoulder injury, despite his conditioning. I'll take that any day for my $13 million.

Damon is not a power hitter, so I'm not sure the S in OPS applies here. I'll take .290-.300 with and OBP of .370 and above and 100 runs scored in years 3 and 4. Why do you think Damon will drop 125 OPS in 2 years? Where is your evidence?

161 and River Ave.
12-21-05, 07:51 PM
Bernie Williams never had a great arm. EVER. From 95-2005 he never had a great arm. And we won a lot of games. Why, all of a sudden, is arm strength in CF such a concern to every Yankee fan and is the reason everyone has to knock Damon.

PerfectCone
12-21-05, 07:52 PM
OK, now that the initial euphoria has passed and I have had some time to look into this, I am a bit concerned. Make no mistake, I am sure that Damon will play well, but there are some concerns. Consider:

1. Damon's .OBP was 40 points higher at Fagway than on the road for his four year tenure as a Bosock.

2. According to Rosenthal, Juan Encarnacion, Coco Crisp and GASP! Shea Hillenbrand all posted higher .OBP than Damon away from home.

3. Despite Johnny's claim that he is the best leadoff hitter in baseball, Jete still had superior numbers last season.

4. Noodle Arm

5. The impending FA status of Andruw Jones.

Anyone else a bit apprehensive? Any other concerns?

Tifoso
12-21-05, 07:53 PM
Bernie Williams never had a great arm. EVER. From 95-2005 he never had a great arm. And we won a lot of games. Why, all of a sudden, is arm strength in CF such a concern to every Yankee fan and is the reason everyone has to knock Damon.


Word.

NYYBombshell
12-21-05, 07:54 PM
OK, now that the initial euphoria has passed and I have had some time to look into this, I am a bit concerned. Make no mistake, I am sure that Damon will play well, but there are some concerns. Consider:

1. Damon's .OBP was 40 points higher at Fagway.....



I stopped reading after that.

SI Baseballman
12-21-05, 07:54 PM
So here is my all-BOS/NYY team of the 1980s-Present. Who am I forgetting?


PITCHING STAFF

SP Roger Clemens
SP David Cone
SP David Wells

RP Ramiro Mendoza
RP Alan Embree
RP Mike Myers
RP Tom Gordon
RP Mike Stanton
RP Tony Fossas


STARTING LINEUP

LF Rickey Henderson
CF Johnny Damon
3B Wade Boggs
RF Jose Canseco
1B John Olerud
C Jim Leyritz
2B Mark Bellhorn
DH Tony Clark
SS Rey Sanchez


BENCH

C Mike Stanley
C John Flaherty
3B Mike Lowell

edit: had LF/RF switched

other notables:

RHP Lee Smith
OF Mark Whiten
SP Bobby Ojeda (if you count his 3 IP as a Yankee)
RP Paul Quantrill
C Rick Cerone

Johnny O
12-21-05, 07:55 PM
And even with a drop of 100 OPS, Sheff still hit close to .300 and had over 30 HR and 100 RBI. That was with a nagging shoulder injury, despite his conditioning. I'll take that any day for my $13 million.

Damon is not a power hitter, so I'm not sure the S in OPS applies here. I'll take .290-.300 with and OBP of .370 and above and 100 runs scored in years 3 and 4. Why do you think Damon will drop 125 OPS in 2 years? Where is your evidence?

Damon's career OBP is .353. Why do you think it will improve as he ages and gets further away from his peak years? He's moving away from a hitters park to a neutral park. His only full season he played in a pitcher's park he posted an OPS of .687 - I don't think he'll slide to those depths but it's more probable that he moves south of his career numbers than above them.

SI Baseballman
12-21-05, 07:56 PM
I like this move by the Yanks. I think Damon will have a career year in the power department with the YS short porch. Then again, he won't have the Yankee pitching to feast over, but Boston's staff isn't much of an improvement.

PerfectCone
12-21-05, 07:56 PM
I stopped reading after that.

Sorry to offend, you can take the boy out of the bleachers, but you can't take the bleachers out of the boy.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 07:56 PM
If Boston signed Clemens and filled CF & SS with two league average players, they would win the east.

As stated before in this thread, there is a reason Clemens retired from the AL. To expect a season like the last one with Houston is pure fantasy, where ever he ends up.

They have Manny (who wants to leave) and Ortiz. Varitek and Nixon, while good, do not exactly strike an ARod fear in everyone.

There is a serious question about every arm on the Sox, including Beckett.

I think you may be a bit optimistic here, even though it is only December.

161 and River Ave.
12-21-05, 08:00 PM
As stated before in this thread, there is a reason Clemens retired from the AL. To expect a season like the last one with Houston is pure fantasy, where ever he ends up.

They have Manny (who wants to leave) and Ortiz. Varitek and Nixon, while good, do not exactly strike an ARod fear in everyone.

There is a serious question about every arm on the Sox, including Beckett.

I think you may be a bit optimistic here, even though it is only December.

Who's gonna set the table for Manny and Ortiz now. That's another question that needs to be asked.

NYYBombshell
12-21-05, 08:01 PM
Sorry to offend, you can take the boy out of the bleachers, but you can't take the bleachers out of the boy.


I wasn't offended, I just thought it was tacky and needless.

PerfectCone
12-21-05, 08:03 PM
I wasn't offended, I just thought it was tacky and needless.

Understood. However, I think the Red Sox are tacky and needless. ;)

Johnny O
12-21-05, 08:06 PM
As stated before in this thread, there is a reason Clemens retired from the AL. To expect a season like the last one with Houston is pure fantasy, where ever he ends up.

They have Manny (who wants to leave) and Ortiz. Varitek and Nixon, while good, do not exactly strike an ARod fear in everyone.

There is a serious question about every arm on the Sox, including Beckett.

I think you may be a bit optimistic here, even though it is only December.

And there are no serious questions on our staff?

Clemens obviously wouldn't post a sub 2.00 ERA but he'd be the best starter on either staff. I did mention that this fantasy, but you chose to only quote a portion of my post.

Loretta, Youkilis & Lowell are good complimentary players to supplement the offense. Marte is a future star.

Boston has the resources to plug their holes. I wouldn't assume the division is ours just yet.

Johnny O
12-21-05, 08:07 PM
Understood. However, I think the Red Sox are tacky and needless. ;)

Aw, come on. Just their Hooligan fans are.

WebsterMulligan
12-21-05, 08:18 PM
I love the fact that this puts the Sox in chaos. Luccino's press conference today was one I savor for a long time.


They are in disarray, as evidenced by the fact that Lucchino stepped on himself a few times during the press conference.

Lucchino also indicated that the Red Sox still intend to accommodate Manny's request for a trade. I'm not sure if that is entirely possible, after losing Damon, but I'm truely looking forward to all of the stunts that a discontented Manny Ramirez will pull, if the Red Sox fail to trade him.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 08:19 PM
Damon's career OBP is .353. Why do you think it will improve as he ages and gets further away from his peak years? He's moving away from a hitters park to a neutral park. His only full season he played in a pitcher's park he posted an OPS of .687 - I don't think he'll slide to those depths but it's more probable that he moves south of his career numbers than above them.

His away OBP was .342 last year. His OBP is not as high as you would expect because he doesn't strike out a lot (36 in 2005) and he doesn't walk a lot (32 in 2005). He puts the ball in play--which is what you want from a leadoff hitter.

Next year his potential drop in average and OBP away from Fenway will be made up for by the short porch in right field in Yankee Stadium. I agree he will drop in OPS but not to .680. I still think he will put the ball in play for the full 4 years (unlike Bernie for the last two), and I expect something like .275-.285 in year 4.

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 08:21 PM
Damon's career OBP is .353. Why do you think it will improve as he ages and gets further away from his peak years? He's moving away from a hitters park to a neutral park. His only full season he played in a pitcher's park he posted an OPS of .687 - I don't think he'll slide to those depths but it's more probable that he moves south of his career numbers than above them.

But you neglect to include that Damon will be playing at Yankee Stadium, which is a lefty-friendly park. Has anyone posted his career Yankee Stadium numbers? I'm curious as to how well he hits there.

And Damon just turned 32. I'd say he is still within his peak years for another 2 years or so. Which means it's possible his numbers actually get better. Not saying it will happen, but this argument that he's old already is strange. He's basically the same age as Jeter.

WebsterMulligan
12-21-05, 08:22 PM
But you neglect to include that Damon will be playing at Yankee Stadium, which is a lefty-friendly park. Has anyone posted his career Yankee Stadium numbers? I'm curious as to how well he hits there.

And Damon just turned 32. I'd say he is still within his peak years for another 2 years or so. Which means it's possible his numbers actually get better. Not saying it will happen, but this argument that he's old already is strange. He's basically the same age as Jeter.

I'll wager that he'll slap a few dingers over the RF wall.

yankeesAZ
12-21-05, 08:24 PM
Any word yet on what number he will wear? I guess it's too late to get a Damon jersey for Xmas.

AMYanks
12-21-05, 08:25 PM
Any word yet on what number he will wear? I guess it's too late to get a Damon jersey for Xmas.

Probably #18, Crosby will go back to wearing #19.

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 08:25 PM
Any word yet on what number he will wear? I guess it's too late to get a Damon jersey for Xmas.

He wore 18 in Boston. Unless Andre Robertson's number is being retired, I suspect the Yanks will give it to him. Sorry Bubba.

Johnny O
12-21-05, 08:26 PM
His away OBP was .342 last year. His OBP is not as high as you would expect because he doesn't strike out a lot (36 in 2005) and he doesn't walk a lot (32 in 2005). He puts the ball in play--which is what you want from a leadoff hitter.

Next year his potential drop in average and OBP away from Fenway will be made up for by the short porch in right field in Yankee Stadium. I agree he will drop in OPS but not to .680. I still think he will put the ball in play for the full 4 years (unlike Bernie for the last two), and I expect something like .275-.285 in year 4.

The goal of the lead-off hitter (or any hitter) is to get on base, not make contact. That's fundamental.

It's severely doubtful that any drop in OBP will be offset by the short porch in RF, which favors lefties with power who pull the ball.

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 08:27 PM
It's severely doubtful that any drop in OBP will be offset by the short porch in RF, which favors lefties with power who pull the ball.

Do you have his Yankee Stadium career numbers?

And his OBP is offset by the fact that he is a pain-in-the ass hitter who fouls off lots of pitches and works pitchers.

Johnny O
12-21-05, 08:32 PM
But you neglect to include that Damon will be playing at Yankee Stadium, which is a lefty-friendly park. Has anyone posted his career Yankee Stadium numbers? I'm curious as to how well he hits there.

And Damon just turned 32. I'd say he is still within his peak years for another 2 years or so. Which means it's possible his numbers actually get better. Not saying it will happen, but this argument that he's old already is strange. He's basically the same age as Jeter.

His peak has likely past - his best back to back season occurred in 1999/2000 (respective OPS of .856/877), he's only achieved those numbers once since, in 2004.

Jeter is an elite HOF level player, Damon is an above average player.

Fenway is also lefty friendly for pull hitters, as is YS.

yankeesAZ
12-21-05, 08:32 PM
He wore 18 in Boston. Unless Andre Robertson's number is being retired, I suspect the Yanks will give it to him. Sorry Bubba.

Maybe we should retire Robertson's number.

WebsterMulligan
12-21-05, 08:32 PM
Do you have his Yankee Stadium career numbers?

And his OBP is offset by the fact that he is a pain-in-the ass hitter who fouls off lots of pitches and works pitchers.

He had a .350 OBP at YS last year, in 38 AB's. Not sure about his career numbers, however. He had monster numbers at Tropicana Field last year, in 38 AB's.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=5484&type=batting&year=2005

He a very difficult out and that will definitely help the hitters who follow him in the lineup.

Sam18
12-21-05, 08:33 PM
Meh, I've learned to like him. He's one of us now. Go Jevus!!

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 08:33 PM
And there are no serious questions on our staff?

Clemens obviously wouldn't post a sub 2.00 ERA but he'd be the best starter on either staff. I did mention that this fantasy, but you chose to only quote a portion of my post.

Loretta, Youkilis & Lowell are good complimentary players to supplement the offense. Marte is a future star.

Boston has the resources to plug their holes. I wouldn't assume the division is ours just yet.

True, the games have to be played, and for all of our yapping about the Yankees-Sox, don't forget the Blue Jays.

I agree there are questions on our staff. However, the type and degree of the Boston questions are a bit more serious. Can Schilling ever come back from the ankle? Can Clement pitch a big game under pressure? Can Mota, Miller, and Beckett for that matter succeed in the AL? Will Arroyo have any consistency? Can Foulke recover from his elbow surgery, and if he can, is he so sick of Boston that he can't get the fire in his belly up to close properly?

Loretta, Youkilis, and Lowell have the potential to be decent, I agree, but other than Manny and Ortiz, there is nobody on the Sox that matches the Yankees 1-7.

I really think the Sox are more than a player or two away from matching the last two years' performance.

They do have the resources, I also agree, but are the needed parts available?

Spiker101
12-21-05, 08:34 PM
5. The impending FA status of Andruw Jones.

Anyone else a bit apprehensive? Any other concerns?

What I'm apprehensive about is the continuing inability of Damon's critics to grasp that Andruw Jones is signed THROUGH '07 and his chances of ever hitting the free agent market are not good. Notice my subtle use of understatement.

Johnny O
12-21-05, 08:34 PM
Do you have his Yankee Stadium career numbers?

And his OBP is offset by the fact that he is a pain-in-the ass hitter who fouls off lots of pitches and works pitchers.

No his OBP is not offset by his ability to work pitchers. It's helpful, but getting on base is the fundamental goal for any offensive player.

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 08:36 PM
No his OBP is not offset by his ability to work pitchers. It's helpful, but getting on base is the fundamental goal for any offensive player.

Ummm-hmm.

What about the first part?

PerfectCone
12-21-05, 08:36 PM
What I'm apprehensive about is the continuing inability of Damon's critics to grasp that Andruw Jones is signed THROUGH '07 and his chances of ever hitting the free agent market are not good. Notice my subtle use of understatement.

Thanks for the info, I was mislead by a couple of silly sportwriters! Don't get me wrong, I am no critic, I am very happy about the signing. I'm just trying not to think with my heart here.

Meecham4ever
12-21-05, 08:42 PM
After reading 47 pages of posts, and some careful, soulful, introspection...I still feel the way I did last night...Damon will help us-damn good signing.
I DO find the "Jeter should still lead-off" arguements compelling though...the best point I read about that was that with Damons speed, he'd hit into less DP's than the Captain.
The only thing that everyone else seems to be so super-confident about-but still bothers the hell out of me-is our starting pitching. I see NO REASON for us to feel better about our rotation than the Sux rotation-they're both filled with "maybes', possiblys' and hopefullys" - and Toronto has a better starting rotation than both of us!!
Cash....can we work on that please?? Forget the holidays! Get to work!! :)~

Johnny O
12-21-05, 08:45 PM
True, the games have to be played, and for all of our yapping about the Yankees-Sox, don't forget the Blue Jays.

I agree there are questions on our staff. However, the type and degree of the Boston questions are a bit more serious. Can Schilling ever come back from the ankle? Can Clement pitch a big game under pressure? Can Mota, Miller, and Beckett for that matter succeed in the AL? Will Arroyo have any consistency? Can Foulke recover from his elbow surgery, and if he can, is he so sick of Boston that he can't get the fire in his belly up to close properly?

Loretta, Youkilis, and Lowell have the potential to be decent, I agree, but other than Manny and Ortiz, there is nobody on the Sox that matches the Yankees 1-7.

I really think the Sox are more than a player or two away from matching the last two years' performance.

They do have the resources, I also agree, but are the needed parts available?

Loretta & Youkilis both have strong career OBPs. Lowell is one year removed from being one of the better 3Bman in the game.

Lugo is available, an upgrade over Renteria, for example. There are CF solutions out there, it just takes a little creativity and faith in analysis and identification to find them.

They have young guns in Papelbon, Lester, Hansen.

Our staff boasts a 43 year old starter with no cartilage in one knee, a rapidly declining Mussina, Wang who was close to surgery and still represents serious injury risk, the unknowns of Pavano & Wright, and the weak peripherials of Chacon. Farnsworth? Sturtze? Myers?

It's very early. But it's much closer than you think.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 08:45 PM
He had a .350 OBP at YS last year, in 38 AB's. Not sure about his career numbers, however. He had monster numbers at Tropicana Field last year, in 38 AB's.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=5484&type=batting&year=2005

He a very difficult out and that will definitely help the hitters who follow him in the lineup.

He hit .342 in 38 AB in Yankee Stadium last year. His 1.147 OPS at Tropicana Field looks pretty good as well. He didn't appear to hit well against the Jays or Baltimore in their home parks.

The probability of decline is there, I agree, but Bernie II this will not be.

Johnny O
12-21-05, 08:47 PM
Ummm-hmm.

What about the first part?

Do your own research.

Fenway's history is that righties and lefties both hit better there than elsewhere, refer to Rob Neyer's column on ESPN today.

PerfectCone
12-21-05, 08:49 PM
Fenway is a hitter's paradise.

38Special
12-21-05, 08:53 PM
I love when people use home/away splits as a way to judge a player's abilities. Check around the league, most hitters hit better at home rather than away. See Jeter, Ortiz, Manny, Sheffield, A-Rod. There's more to it than the shape of the ballpark. Hell, even if you dont believe it, check out Damon's hit chart. He is not someone who depended on the left field wall or hooked balls around the pesky pole.


Fenway is a hitter's paradise.
When your pitching is bad and your hitters are great, there will be plenty of high scoring games in Fenway

Johnny O
12-21-05, 08:53 PM
He hit .342 in 38 AB in Yankee Stadium last year. His 1.147 OPS at Tropicana Field looks pretty good as well. He didn't appear to hit well against the Jays or Baltimore in their home parks.

The probability of decline is there, I agree, but Bernie II this will not be.

Bernie is a signifcantly better player than Damon by career, he has eight better seasons than Damon's best. Why are so sure Damon won't decline beyond his career numbers (which to reiterate, are a .353 OBP and .784 OPS)?

YankeePride1967
12-21-05, 08:55 PM
OK, now that the initial euphoria has passed and I have had some time to look into this, I am a bit concerned. Make no mistake, I am sure that Damon will play well, but there are some concerns. Consider:

1. Damon's .OBP was 40 points higher at Fagway than on the road for his four year tenure as a Bosock.

2. According to Rosenthal, Juan Encarnacion, Coco Crisp and GASP! Shea Hillenbrand all posted higher .OBP than Damon away from home.

3. Despite Johnny's claim that he is the best leadoff hitter in baseball, Jete still had superior numbers last season.

4. Noodle Arm

5. The impending FA status of Andruw Jones.

Anyone else a bit apprehensive? Any other concerns?

Nevermind, see others beat me to it.

BronxByTheBay
12-21-05, 08:57 PM
Notice my subtle use of understatement.

Is there any other kind? ;)

38Special
12-21-05, 08:58 PM
Andruw Jones is going to command at least a 5 year deal when hes a free agent after the 07 season. Guess how old he'll be in 08? 31!

This point will all be moot, as Dual Rookie of the Years Brett Gardner and Tim Battle force a trade of Damon to Milwaukee

montrealer
12-21-05, 08:59 PM
After 12 pints of guiness last nite caveman is growing on me. :gulp: :gulp:

Better than the morning after I found out the Expos signed Pete Rose. :barf: :barf:

Johnny O
12-21-05, 09:00 PM
I love when people use home/away splits as a way to judge a player's abilities. Check around the league, most hitters hit better at home rather than away. See Jeter, Ortiz, Manny, Sheffield, A-Rod. There's more to it than the shape of the ballpark. Hell, even if you dont believe it, check out Damon's hit chart. He is not someone who depended on the left field wall or hooked balls around the pesky pole.


When your pitching is bad and your hitters are great, there will be plenty of high scoring games in Fenway

Fenway is a hitters park, always has been. You have to factor environment into the analysis. It's more than dimensions, the background there is great for hitters.

38Special
12-21-05, 09:20 PM
Fenway is a hitters park, always has been. You have to factor environment into the analysis. It's more than dimensions, the background there is great for hitters.
Of course, when you have a wall that short in left field, or can hook balls around the right field pole, you'd love the park. But there's no way to distinguish that fact from the fact that most hitters do much better at home.

For example (there are the only two players who have left the Red Sox since I can find splits and have played full seasons)


Todd Walker (Age 32)
2003: .283/.333/.428
2003 Home: .323/.382/.502
2003 Away: .234/.282/.373

Does that make Todd a horrible hitter? a .234 hitter?

2004 with cubs: .274/.352/.468
2005 with cubs: .305/.355/.474

and for kicks, his splits this year sported a .326 avg at home and .291 away


Shea Hillenbrand (Age 30)
2002: .293/.330/.459
2002 Home: .264/.301/.367
2002 Away: .322/.358/.548

2003 (was split with two teams so im leaving it out)
2004 with arizona: .310/.348/.464
2005 with toronto: .291/.343/.449

Like Varitek and Nixon had this year, he had an extreme home/away split but in the opposite direction. Did he hit .322 with a 548 SLG% for the rest of his career? Negative.

My Conclusion....i'm not even sure now because I cant draw anything specific from the hit charts :(

Jace
12-21-05, 09:27 PM
Fenway is a hitters park, always has been. You have to factor environment into the analysis. It's more than dimensions, the background there is great for hitters.

Fenway was average for hitters last year. Runs+ scored there was 101 (that is not the correct statistic name, but it works like that and I forget what it is called). That includes Boston's bad rotation and bullpen giving up extra runs and their offense leading the league (yes, I know Damon is part of that).

Johnny O
12-21-05, 09:34 PM
Of course, when you have a wall that short in left field, or can hook balls around the right field pole, you'd love the park. But there's no way to distinguish that fact from the fact that most hitters do much better at home.

For example (there are the only two players who have left the Red Sox since I can find splits and have played full seasons)


Todd Walker (Age 32)
2003: .283/.333/.428
2003 Home: .323/.382/.502
2003 Away: .234/.282/.373

Does that make Todd a horrible hitter? a .234 hitter?

2004 with cubs: .274/.352/.468
2005 with cubs: .305/.355/.474

and for kicks, his splits this year sported a .326 avg at home and .291 away


Shea Hillenbrand (Age 30)
2002: .293/.330/.459
2002 Home: .264/.301/.367
2002 Away: .322/.358/.548

2003 (was split with two teams so im leaving it out)
2004 with arizona: .310/.348/.464
2005 with toronto: .291/.343/.449

Like Varitek and Nixon had this year, he had an extreme home/away split but in the opposite direction. Did he hit .322 with a 548 SLG% for the rest of his career? Negative.

My Conclusion....i'm not even sure now because I cant draw anything specific from the hit charts :(

I never said hitters don't do better in their home park. But some parks are better to hit in than others, and that is all I said. Fenway is a better hitters park than YS. Based on massive historical evidence, Damon likely won't post the same numbers as a Yankee over the course of 162. He might, but it's not probable. Park factors are part of the game. If Damon's numbers decline, we likely won't know if it is because of age, decline, normal regression to the mean, injury or park without some serious analysis that none of use can afford to do.

AMYanks
12-21-05, 09:35 PM
FWIW, Yankee Stadium supported hitters more than Fenway Park did this season.

Johnny O
12-21-05, 09:36 PM
Fenway was average for hitters last year. Runs+ scored there was 101 (that is not the correct statistic name, but it works like that and I forget what it is called). That includes Boston's bad rotation and bullpen giving up extra runs and their offense leading the league (yes, I know Damon is part of that).

Last year isn't historical - over the course of it's existence fenway is a hitter's park.

keyserhh
12-21-05, 09:44 PM
And even with a drop of 100 OPS, Sheff still hit close to .300 and had over 30 HR and 100 RBI. That was with a nagging shoulder injury, despite his conditioning. I'll take that any day for my $13 million.

Damon is not a power hitter, so I'm not sure the S in OPS applies here. I'll take .290-.300 with and OBP of .370 and above and 100 runs scored in years 3 and 4. Why do you think Damon will drop 125 OPS in 2 years? Where is your evidence?

yes, exactly. sheffield declined by >100 ops points, but was still a decent deal at 13 million because before his decline he was a 1000+ ops hitter. damon is NOT. he is an 800 ops hitter. his decline will bring him to the 680-700 range.

290-300 with an obp of 370 implies a +70-80 in obp-ba, which damon is not anywhere near. in fact, he has only achieved a 370 obp in 1 out of his last 6 seasons. and you expect it at age 35? good luck.

the evidence for damon's drop is that it would be not much of a drop at all. damon's ops on the road in the last 3 years has been 730. his obp away from fenway is 340. lifetime ops at yankees stadium is 700. a decline in 2 years to 680-700 is almost optimistic.

mjdlight
12-21-05, 09:50 PM
I was thinking about the Damon deal this way just now.

Let's say the Boston Red Sox FO at the time of the Manny deal took the "We don't want to risk being stuck with an inflexible contract on the back end of a long term deal." If they took this tack back then, do you think they would gotten Manny? And without Manny, do they win a WS in 2004? I think not.

I guess my point is, value moves are great. Value moves are essential to building a championship team. But if all you do is play safe, smart value moves, you become the A's, who of course, must because of their financial situation. A solid, even borderline great team year in and year and year out, but the brass ring will always remain out of your reach.

In order to reach the highest level, you've got to be willing to take on some risk along with intelligent value moves.

38Special
12-21-05, 10:03 PM
the evidence for damon's drop is that it would be not much of a drop at all. damon's ops on the road in the last 3 years has been 730. his obp away from fenway is 340. lifetime ops at yankees stadium is 700. a decline in 2 years to 680-700 is almost optimistic.
reading the last few pages of this thread would be swell

keyserhh
12-21-05, 10:14 PM
reading the last few pages of this thread would be swell

i have. here is damon's line at yankees stadium 2002-4
.265 .326 .376 .702
people who parade his average at yankees stadium in 2005, please parade his grandiose improvement to a 718 ops.

maybe the last few pages shouldnt cherry pick statistics to make him look better.

and i dont buy the "todd walker" comparison for a second. player performance tends to follow their road, and not home, statistics when they change teams. see: about a million analyses.

the last few pages of the thread, except saying things like "the short porch will be great for him" dont provide anything to suggest that he'll do anything better than the 700 ops he has put up in yankees stadium in the last 4 years

38Special
12-21-05, 10:16 PM
i have. here is damon's line at yankees stadium 2002-4
.265 .326 .376 .702
people who parade his average at yankees stadium in 2005, please parade his grandiose improvement to a 718 ops.

maybe the last few pages shouldnt cherry pick statistics to make him look better.
That's weird, was he on the Yankees for those numbers?

Once again, Fenway plays as a hitters park as much as Yankee stadium, and most players (Damon included) hit better at home. Jeter hit .270 on the road and .350 at home in 05. Would you expect him to become a .270 hitter if we traded him to the Blue Jays?

keyserhh
12-21-05, 10:23 PM
That's weird, was he on the Yankees for those numbers?

Once again, Fenway plays as a hitters park as much as Yankee stadium, and most players (Damon included) hit better at home. Jeter hit .270 on the road and .350 at home in 05. Would you expect him to become a .270 hitter if we traded him to the Blue Jays?

no, just like i dont expect damon to start at a 700 ops in yankee stadium. evidence suggests that between a normal decline and the fact that he hits particularly poorly at YS, that he would put up an ops of 750-780 to start, and decline over 4 years to about 700, which is what i said originally - expect 680-700 by the end of his contract. now which is more likely - this, or speculations that have him doing an about-face and putting up a 370 obp?

Mark19
12-21-05, 10:25 PM
so between Farnsworth and Damon, do we have any top draft picks left?

38Special
12-21-05, 10:28 PM
so between Farnsworth and Damon, do we have any top draft picks left?

Pick #21, Pick #40. The only round where we dont make a pick is the 2nd round

Johnny O
12-21-05, 10:33 PM
That's weird, was he on the Yankees for those numbers?

Once again, Fenway plays as a hitters park as much as Yankee stadium, and most players (Damon included) hit better at home. Jeter hit .270 on the road and .350 at home in 05. Would you expect him to become a .270 hitter if we traded him to the Blue Jays?

Once again, Fenway is historically a better hitter's park than YS.

You're single data points, like the stats on Jeter's road BA in 2005, are very weak arguments.

38Special
12-21-05, 10:38 PM
Once again, Fenway is historically a better hitter's park than YS.

You're single data points, like the stats on Jeter's road BA in 2005, are very weak arguments.


If you're going to compare someone's stats for one year, why should it be compared to a historical context which is less significant than the factors for 05?

And has anyone posted a link that says that Fenway is a better hitters' park historically? I don't think it matters much for this, but you guys keep saying it over and over.

CalYankeeFan
12-21-05, 10:47 PM
Let me just say if Damon leads off, I'm puking.

The bag will be in the seat in front of you....

Dooley Womack
12-21-05, 11:24 PM
We have the best leadoff hitter in baseball (Derek Jeter).



Getting Michaels would make me happy about getting Damon. I really, really hope Cash gets Michaels.

Have you watched Michales play regularly or are you just hearing his name for the first time the past month or so? What can you share about him? You seem very determined about getting him so I'm just wondering.

kan_t
12-21-05, 11:26 PM
Have you watched Michales play regularly or are you just hearing his name for the first time the past month or so? If so, what can you share? You seem very determined about getting him so I'm just wondering.
I want Cashman gets them both, then place Michales at RF and DH Sheff.

AMYanks
12-21-05, 11:33 PM
Have you watched Michales play regularly or are you just hearing his name for the first time the past month or so? What can you share about him? You seem very determined about getting him so I'm just wondering.

I know you weren't asking me, but since I've posted a lot about wanting the Yankees to get Michaels, I'll just explain my reasoning a little bit. I haven't watched him a lot, but there are a few things that stand out when I have watched. Defensively, he's pretty good. He's kind of the opposite of Bernie. Bernie was a tremendous athlete, but had limited instincts. Michaels is not a great athlete, but he has a natural understanding on how to play the outfield. Good jumps, good angles, good range. Not a "great" arm, but pretty good. Offensively, I think you have to love his batting eye. He may never be a great major league hitter, but I think he can put up .290 / .380 / .440 over a full season, while providing strong defense at a small price. The scouting reports I have read basically all agree with this assessment.

Now that we have Damon, I would love to bring Michaels in to play RF, and have Sheffield DH. He could also give Damon a few days as a DH, as well as Matsui.

Zimmers' Helmet
12-22-05, 12:19 AM
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051221/nyw139.html?.v=32


Philips Norelco Welcomes Johnny Damon to New York With a Challenge for Charity
Wednesday December 21, 3:28 pm ET
A Clean Shave Can Help Damon's Favorite Charity Clean Up with a $15,000 Donation from Philips Norelco

NEW YORK, Dec. 21 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Philips Norelco welcomes the newest member of the Yankee's lineup as he makes the move from Bean Town to the Big Apple. Beyond signing up with his long-time archrival team, he'll also have to comply with some of The Boss' legendary rules - most notably, the long-standing team requirement for the Yankees to be clean-shaven. Perhaps Philips Norelco can help sweeten the pot and lessen the sting and irritation of shaving for Johnny - a $15,000 donation to the charity of Johnny's choice if he decides to take the plunge with an electric shave courtesy of Philips Norelco.

AMYanks
12-22-05, 12:21 AM
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051221/nyw139.html?.v=32

Didn't he do this last year, or the year before? I remember hearing about it, and seeing him get a shave in public.

bakntime
12-22-05, 12:29 AM
Skimming some more through this thread again, I have some more thoughts. People keep going on and on about Damon's Yankee Stadium numbers being poor... First of all, the Yankees usually have one of the better pitching staffs, so that doesn't help. Secondly, that's a sample size of what, 9-10 games a year? You can't possibly judge a player on a sampling of 10 games a season to conclude he's a bad hitter at YS because of the stadium.

I think YS will help him. The RF porch is tailor made to his line drive pulls (which could translate to more HRs), and the bigger gap in left center will net him more doubles that were singles off the monstah in Fenway, as well as the fact that the LF having to play deeper at YS netting him more singles to shallow left.

On Jeremy Reed... people act as though Seattle will be jumping to give away a young player who is years away from arbitration, let alone free agency. They're not going to just hand him over, so the Sox would logically have to give up something of high value. Not to mention he's a completely unproven Major Leaguer. He's done nothing noteworthy on the major league level. That's not to say he won't, but I hear people talking about him like he'd be a lock to take Fenway park by storm. There's no telling how he'd fare defensively in that odd CF configuration, and how he'd handle the pressure of playing in Boston and the Yanks-Sox matchups.

On Micheals, I posted my thoughts earlier in this tread, and for the sake of self promotion, here's that post for all of you to enjoy once again


As for the whole Michaels thing... I really don't see the appeal. By most accounts he's an average outfielder, with less than stellar speed. Couple that with the fact that he hits worse against right handed pitchers, worse on the road (he's played in a great hitter's park in Philly), and he would be a RH hitter coming into RH-hitter-unfriendly YS, and I think you'd have a recipe for a potential NY flop.

2005:

Vs. Lefties: .323 BA, .438 OBP
Vs. Righties: .289 BA, .363 OBP

Home: .328 BA, .428 OBP
Road: .285 BA, .374 OBP

Away from the friendly confines of Philly, having to bat regularly against right handed pitchers as a starter, having to cover significantly more ground in YS than in Philly, not knowing how he would handle the pressure of NY, etc... I just don't see how he's gotten all the attention and praise that he's gotten.



No, most of it is based on thinking that Damon at 4/52 is probably not worth it.He's probably not worth that much... but it's money, and it's money the Yankees have. And contrary to what the Yankees might lead people to believe, they're not cash strapped. With the new stadium opening in 4 years, not to mention the revenue sharing money saved on construction costs, added in with the huge revenue the new stadium will bring, the Yankees are far from cash-desperate. That does not at all imply that they can spend willy-nilly. It's always smart to act as though you can't spend, so that FAs don't hold the Yankees ransom for ludicrous amounts of money, but $50 over 4 seasons is hardly going to prevent the Yankees from making other moves to improve the team.


With a healthy dose by some people of being pissed that they have to root for a complete douchebag for the next 4 years because he happens to wear our uniform.I would point out that calling anyone a "complete douchebag" isn't a good idea, let alone when that person is a Yankee.


Finally there is some disappointment that a little creativity failed to surface to create a more flexible solution that didn't lock us yet again into an aging player with an unmovable contract.It's FOUR years. Not 6 or 7. Four. And the contract wouldn't make Damon unmovable. If he's successful, then the Yankees wouldn't want to trade him, and if he's not successful, nobody would want him regardless of how much money he was making, so it's not this contract that would make him unmovable. Either way, he's not 36 years old, folks. He's 32. He'll be 35 when the contract ends. With today's training methods, it's highly unlikely that a player of Damon's durability would fall off the table before the age of 35.


But I see very little reason to cheer for this deal or think it was some kind of offseason coup. And I'll go on record now and say by 2009 Damon will be universally hated on this board.Universally hated? Guess we'll see. I'm not making any bold predictions such as this. I will say that Damon is a pain in the ass hitter. You know the kind... the guy that when he comes to the plate you're on the edge of your seat cursing him becuase he's fouling off pitches, slapping at the ball, and not striking out. He drives pitchers nuts. Having a guy like that batting leadoff allows Jeter to bat 2nd. This is great because Yankee hitters in the 2 hole last year batted a combined .272, with a .317 OBP and a .716 OPS, and that includes Alex's numbers batting 2nd. It's going to give everyone from Damon+Jeter on down a greater chance to drive in runs.

I didn't "want" Johnny Damon. I don't think he's spectacular in any particluar facet of the game. Like I said, however, I do particularly like his "pain in the ass" factor on opposing teams. Given the alternatives, (including trading for Reed or Michaels), this turns a big black hole into at the very least a nice smooth surface.

38Special
12-22-05, 12:31 AM
The thing thats all the same about those numbers is a high OBP and average power. He's an average defender somewhere between Damon and Matsui. He's definitely a good pickup for not much

161 and River Ave.
12-22-05, 01:40 AM
Im So Sick And Tired Of All You Stat People And Your Evidence Of Decline And Blah Blah Blah. The Guy Is A Good Hitter, A Base Stealer, He Sets The Table, And He Makes The Yankees Of 2006-2008 Much Better.
End Of Discussion.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-22-05, 01:43 AM
Im So Sick And Tired Of All You Stat People And Your Evidence Of Decline And Blah Blah Blah. The Guy Is A Good Hitter, A Base Stealer, He Sets The Table, And He Makes The Yankees Of 2006-2008 Much Better.
End Of Discussion.

You win...

dabomb2045
12-22-05, 01:44 AM
I think we'll get at least 3 good years out of Damon

NYYBombshell
12-22-05, 01:45 AM
Im So Sick And Tired Of All You Stat People And Your Evidence Of Decline And Blah Blah Blah. The Guy Is A Good Hitter, A Base Stealer, He Sets The Table, And He Makes The Yankees Of 2006-2008 Much Better.
End Of Discussion.


I guess we should probably close the thread then.

MiamiKat
12-22-05, 01:50 AM
Im So Sick And Tired Of All You Stat People And Your Evidence Of Decline And Blah Blah Blah. The Guy Is A Good Hitter, A Base Stealer, He Sets The Table, And He Makes The Yankees Of 2006-2008 Much Better.
End Of Discussion.
Please back up this assertion in a way that is indisputable.

Without using stats.

ryanthe13th
12-22-05, 01:55 AM
I am not happy about this signing still, but I am taking the approach of 'Well, we have him so I hope he does well'. Welcome to New York, Damon.

dabomb2045
12-22-05, 01:56 AM
I dont see any reason why Damon cant put up the same stats he has the last few years....for at least the next 3 years.

He is 32...has never spent a day on the DL. 32 years old in MLB nowadays is not old. His contract ends at 36....and even 36 isnt that old anymore.

JeffWeaverFan
12-22-05, 02:01 AM
He is 32...has never spent a day on the DL. 32 years old in MLB nowadays is not old. His contract ends at 36....and even 36 isnt that old anymore.
I have a feeling that in the post steroid and post upper era of MLB, 36 is going to be a lot older than we remember it from these days.

edit: Damon will be 35 at the end of his deal.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 02:04 AM
She's a whore...so yes she is.

Very nice comment to make about a Yankee's wife. Thanks for the baseball insight.

NYYBombshell
12-22-05, 02:12 AM
Very nice comment to make about a Yankee's wife. Thanks for the baseball insight.


:lol:


I thought talking about players' wives was verboten?

CTyankeefan
12-22-05, 02:33 AM
Please back up this assertion in a way that is indisputable.

Without using stats.

Easy. You watch the guy play the game of baseball. You evaluate his talent level. If you had to pick a player to play for you do you pick Damon or Jason Michaels?

Right now, for one season without regard to salary. Who do you pick?

You are citing production. I am concerned with talent. I want a talent, not a productive numbers compiler.

No one in there right mind would go after Jeremy Reed, Micahels etc. over Damon. We all know a superior baseball player when we see it.

It is undeniable that some players have a tremendous affect on the game that doesn't neccesarily show up in the stats. In sole stat language, Mark Loretta is a better player than Derek Jeter. We all know that is untrue. Or do we?

The one big problem with all the stats people is they don't take into account the actual talent level of the player. It is all about production/salary.

It is too scientific. It takes out talent judgement and intangibles away from the player.

I was reading SOSH, and there are people who think Loretta is better than Damon because of his stats. Ridiculous.

Loretta has nowhere near the effect on the game that Damon has. Is anyone going to argue with me? You can't measure the talent level of Damon. All you are doing is comparing stats of players.

Damon is a better CF than many of the players he is behind on the outfield ratings. The guy can go catch the ball with anyone.

I can't stand the stat geeks arguements. Most of them are logical and make sense, but they dont work practically. These saber stat people end up with lineups like Jason Giambi leading off.

How many want Giambi to lead off, or bat in the No. 2 hole? It makes sense statistically for Giambi to lead off. But we know that how the game is played that it would be a lineup disaster. Over 162 games, the numbers would be tremendous with Giambi in the No. 1 spot and his numbers would justify his being there. Giambi has a high OBP guy would get on base the most because that it was leadoff hitter are supposed to do.

When you actually go to make out a lineup you see how absurd that stat based reasoning is. Giambi doesn't fit what you need in the No. 1 spot. It is the same with Damon. Numbers don't mean anything.

Another example: The closer fallacy.

Stats say that anyone can close. Boston tried this several years ago, a closer by committe. Saber Stats tell us this doesn't matter and that closers are overated.

Now Yankee fans, do we really believe Mariano Rivera's affect is overrated?

This shows the fallacy in stats. I can name off many other instances where people can make statistical arguements that make sense, but are ridiculous practically.

Damon has the ability to wreck a game offensively. He can be a pest and go out there and just supercharge an offense. Mark Loretta can't do that. Micahels or Jeremy Reed can't do that.

Damon is just flat out more talented then those guys. It is not all about stats. What he brings to the team is something that no one else available can do.

Will he decline? Yes. But so what. That hasn't stopped us before. We'll just go out there and get an upgrade.

ZYanksRule
12-22-05, 02:37 AM
Very, Very well said, CT.

I agree 100%

Spiker101
12-22-05, 03:10 AM
no, just like i dont expect damon to start at a 700 ops in yankee stadium. evidence suggests that between a normal decline and the fact that he hits particularly poorly at YS, that he would put up an ops of 750-780 to start, and decline over 4 years to about 700, which is what i said originally - expect 680-700 by the end of his contract. now which is more likely - this, or speculations that have him doing an about-face and putting up a 370 obp?

Please don't cite his numbers at Yankee Stadium as if they mean anything. Aside from the statistical sample size problem, every one of those ABs at the stadium came in pressure-packed, playoff-like games where EVERYONE hits below their career norms. For example, at Yankee Stadium over the past three years the late, the great Jason Veritek is a .578 OPS guy. Manny's OPS at the stadium is .863, compared to his overall 1.002, Trot Nixon's .733 OPS at the Stadium compares to his .892. Damon's Stadium dropoff is smaller than any of the other three, so that should actually be encouraging.
(Ortiz is the exception to the rule, his stadium numbers are actually better than his overall numbers, 1.099 to .983. This comes as no surprise to Yankees fans. The man has been clutch against the Yanks.)

BTW, in looking up the numbers I came to startling realization that only Manny, Ortiz, Trot and Veritek remain from the 2004 team among offensive players. And Manny and Trot may not be there much longer either. Amazing.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 03:13 AM
:lol:


I thought talking about players' wives was verboten?

It is.

Spiker101
12-22-05, 03:16 AM
He wore 18 in Boston. Unless Andre Robertson's number is being retired, I suspect the Yanks will give it to him. Sorry Bubba.

Ah, Andre Robertson, a good ole University of Texas boy, and would've been a terrific Yankee shortstop except for a car accident. Too damn bad.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 03:18 AM
:clap: to bakntime's post above.

Spiker101
12-22-05, 03:20 AM
Is there any other kind? ;)

:D Smart ass.

Kulish29
12-22-05, 03:22 AM
Will he decline? Yes. But so what. That hasn't stopped us before. We'll just go out there and get an upgrade.

We may not even need to upgrade. By the time Damon's contract is up, one of the many CF prospects the Yankees have should be ready.

scull567
12-22-05, 03:39 AM
We may not even need to upgrade. By the time Damon's contract is up, one of the many CF prospects the Yankees have should be ready.

Who are they? I know Melky (who some feel might be corner of), and Henry, who else?

Kulish29
12-22-05, 03:43 AM
Who are they? I know Melky (who some feel might be corner of), and Henry, who else?

Henry, Gardner, Jackson, Tabata.

Those are the guys that are most likely to eventually take over CF. Gardner is the one that would probably get to the majors the fastest as he is more polished.

Mark19
12-22-05, 04:06 AM
I was thinking about something earlier today. I was not initially a big fan of the Damon acquisition. I felt it was too much money and his skillset could be toast by that 4th year.

I still think we paid $4 million too much per season but I'm starting to feel a bit more optimistic about Damon's longevity. It is still very possible that he could follow the Bernie trajectory of deterioration in his mid-30s but it is also possible that he could be resilient enough to remain an above average outfielder into his late 30s.

We have no real reason to believe that he can't immitate someone like Steve Finley. Granted his numbers were garbage this season, but he did very well at 37, 38 and 39. He always offered a lot more power than Damon but he walked less and held a lower average.

I'm not saying that he will be justifying his contract in four years, I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt by suggesting that in 2009 we could still get adequate range and a line of .295-14-65 and 15 SBs.


I also think that with high-wattage star power like A-Rod, Mo, Jeter and Matsui, the Yankee fans and media won't call for blood if he stumbles to the All-Star break with a .270 average and 5 HRs.

NYDCYankee
12-22-05, 04:24 AM
The words of Damon's father:

""Mark it down: It's going to be another Babe Ruth," Jimmy Damon told The News from his Florida home. "They sent Johnny off just like they sent off Babe Ruth. It's going to be another big, big mistake. They made the biggest mistake of their lives.""



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/376847p-320176c.html

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 04:32 AM
One thing that Damon is going to miss is the adulation from the teeny-boppers in Boston. In NY his old unkempt/shaggy look wouldn't have gone over well with the young girls and I don't think he, with his clean shaven looks, is going to be anywhere near competitive with A-Rod and Jeter with the ladies, if at all.

He's going to find that NY doesn't resemble New England by any stretch and I hope he'll be OK with it.

NYDCYankee
12-22-05, 04:45 AM
Nice article by Bob Ryan:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/22/remember_he_was_a_free_man/?page=1

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 04:49 AM
Nice article by Bob Ryan:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/22/remember_he_was_a_free_man/?page=1

Excellent article. Thanks. There's some good, interesting reading in both cities regarding this signing.

NYDCYankee
12-22-05, 04:55 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/60070.htm

Looks like Cash offered Damon a five year deal but Damon took the 4 year deal.

Little Big Sheff
12-22-05, 05:19 AM
And .372 at Yankee Stadium. Not too shabby, huh?

I think you are confusing OBP with SLG :

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=5484&type=batting3

.265 .326 .376 .702 over 2002-2004
.342 .350 .368 .718 in 2005

gdn
12-22-05, 05:29 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/60070.htm

Looks like Cash offered Damon a five year deal but Damon took the 4 year deal.
Here's the funniest quote:

"Because of Damon, I have no chance to play center field next season. I do not have to prepare for it anymore," Matsui told Sankei Sports. "It is good addition for next season. I am only worried about his hair and beard. Will he cut and shave?"

Also, the saddest quote:

Multiple talent evaluators praised the Yankees for signing an offensive force, but they all predicted he would have trouble throwing and covering ground in Yankee Stadium, where there is more room to roam than in Fenway Park.

"It will be interesting to see how he handles center field in Yankee Stadium because in Fenway he could cheat because he didn't have to worry about left-center," a longtime Damon watcher said. "But a lot of guys are going to go from first to third."

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 05:29 AM
I think you are confusing OBP with SLG :

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=5484&type=batting3

.265 .326 .376 .702 over 2002-2004
.342 .350 .368 .718 in 2005

No, it was OBP and I corrected myself in a following post. It was his overall OBP against the Yanks in 2005 and not at Yankee Stadium that I had erroneously posted.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 05:38 AM
Here's the funniest quote:


Also, the saddest quote:

To an extent, what Damon lacks in arm strength he makes up for with good baseball smarts and an accurate throws. I've seen him plenty of times and can't think of one time he threw to a wrong bag or missed a cut-off man. Yeah, I wish he had a gun, but I think he'll be alright.

As for covering ground, he certainly has more speed than Bernie and is probably equal if not faster than Bubba, so that's an upgrade. Plus, he gets an excellent jump on the ball and rarely takes a bad route. He's also not afraid of banging his body against the wall.

In effect, defensively he gives what Bubba would have given out there (which is pretty damn decent), and THEN some (better routes while tracking down the ball, excellent jumps and more experience) and his usefullness at the plate will more than make up for any of his deficiencies.

bakntime
12-22-05, 05:39 AM
Also, the saddest quote:

Multiple talent evaluators praised the Yankees for signing an offensive force, but they all predicted he would have trouble throwing and covering ground in Yankee Stadium, where there is more room to roam than in Fenway Park.

"It will be interesting to see how he handles center field in Yankee Stadium because in Fenway he could cheat because he didn't have to worry about left-center," a longtime Damon watcher said. "But a lot of guys are going to go from first to third."

I don't know if I agree with that assessment. I think Damon is a guy who gets decent reads on fly balls, and tracks/runs well. In my mind, Yankee stadium isn't so bad for a guy like that compared to Fenway. Fenway has a quirky bizarre CF. There are so many assenine factors to deal with, such as high walls, little nooks, strange angles, those garages in dead center (wtf?)... There's none of that at Yankee Stadium. You don't have to decide if a ball is going to be off the monster or not. You don't have to worry about that little section of fence that juts out just right of center field where the bullpen is. You see a ball hit - you track it and run. Damon is best at that - running down a ball. The wide open space is well suited to a CFer like Damon. I think some of his biggest blunders in Fenway came from trying to assess what the hell was going to happen with all the strange walls in CF.

Little Big Sheff
12-22-05, 05:48 AM
It is undeniable that some players have a tremendous affect on the game that doesn't neccesarily show up in the stats. In sole stat language, Mark Loretta is a better player than Derek Jeter. We all know that is untrue. Or do we?

No stat, and no stat guy is going to tell you that Mark Loretta is a better player than Derek Jeter. If you have a problem with stats, please try to counteract with a better argument than this.



The one big problem with all the stats people is they don't take into account the actual talent level of the player. It is all about production/salary.

Because even though there isn't any salary cap in baseball, teams have non unlimited financial resources. Signing people for something more than they are worth is going to hurt you in one way or another.

If you don't believe that, do you think Kevin Brown at 15 per didn't hurt the Yankees? Do you think the last years of Bernie at around 12 per didn't hurt the Yankees? Do you think Moose pitching like a league average pitcher for 18-19 per doesn't hurt the Yankees?


I can't stand the stat geeks arguements. Most of them are logical and make sense, but they dont work practically. These saber stat people end up with lineups like Jason Giambi leading off.

How many want Giambi to lead off, or bat in the No. 2 hole? It makes sense statistically for Giambi to lead off. But we know that how the game is played that it would be a lineup disaster. Over 162 games, the numbers would be tremendous with Giambi in the No. 1 spot and his numbers would justify his being there. Giambi has a high OBP guy would get on base the most because that it was leadoff hitter are supposed to do.

Very (I repeat, VERY) few "stat geeks" are advocating this, but not because of the 'clogging the basepaths' rationale, because his awesome power is better served batting behind people who have a good OBP themselves.

The "I watch baseball" camp on the other hand, brought us Womack in the #2 spot, and Giambi in the #6 spot for weeks. This is what is actually absurd.



Another example: The closer fallacy.

Stats say that anyone can close. Boston tried this several years ago, a closer by committe. Saber Stats tell us this doesn't matter and that closers are overated.

Now Yankee fans, do we really believe Mariano Rivera's affect is overrated?

The Sox approach failed because they didn't have the personnel. What is meant by "closer-by-comitee" is that your best reliever should pitch in the most important situation in the late innings of a game, regardless of if it's the seventh or the ninth inning?

The "traditional thinking" brings you Stanton to face Brian Roberts, because you might need Mo for the-save-that-may-never-come.

And yes, except for a couple arms, closers are overrated. We'll talk again when the Blue Jays are shopping BJ Ryan all over the world in two years from now.



Will he decline? Yes. But so what. That hasn't stopped us before. We'll just go out there and get an upgrade.

The same way Bernie's decline didn't stop us? The same way we had to wait for two (some would say three) years before getting an upgrade?

Little Big Sheff
12-22-05, 05:50 AM
No, it was OBP and I corrected myself in a following post. It was his overall OBP against the Yanks in 2005 and not at Yankee Stadium that I had erroneously posted.

Gotcha.

I hope you'll forgive me for not reading the whole thread ;)

CalYankeeFan
12-22-05, 05:52 AM
:lol:


I thought talking about players' wives was verboten?

Not only that...it's against the rules.

;)

Yankees1962
12-22-05, 06:37 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/60070.htm

Looks like Cash offered Damon a five year deal but Damon took the 4 year deal.
Not according to several Yankee sources as indicated in that same article you linked.

Cashman refused to comment until after the physical is complete, but several Yankee sources said a five-year offer wasn't made. According to Boras, Damon left money on the table from another club to play for the Yankees. "Johnny didn't take the best financial deal," the agent said.

NYDCYankee
12-22-05, 06:44 AM
I just heard an interview with Damon yesterday on WEEI. Damon CONFIRMED Cash made a five year deal, but for less guaranteed money.


He also said he had a 6 year deal from another team, but wanted to win. I am assuming this was from the O's.

Yankees1962
12-22-05, 06:50 AM
I just heard an interview with Damon yesterday on WEEI. Damon CONFIRMED Cash made a five year deal, but for less guaranteed money.


He also said he had a 6 year deal from another team, but wanted to win. I am assuming this was from the O's.
Damon and Boras can say that till the cows come home, but if Cashman says otherwise then my belief is in him. I don't have much faith in Boras "speak" and Damon was probably saying what Boras told him to say. IMO, Boras is a liar who would say anything to get a deal or make himself look good.

NYDCYankee
12-22-05, 06:57 AM
Damon and Boras can say that till the cows come home, but if Cashman says otherwise then my belief is in him. I don't have much faith in Boras "speak" and Damon was probably saying what Boras told him to say. IMO, Boras is a liar who would say anything to get a deal or make himself look good.

Why? Why would Damon say that? Damon was offered the deal we heard reported Sunday night 5/52. It was reported Sunday and confirmed by Damon yesterday. That is good enough for me.

Do you not think Cash might play politics too?

yankeebot
12-22-05, 07:06 AM
I've been wondering how many conversations between Boras and Cashman "about Bernie" were mostly about Damon. I mean, the Bernie re-signing took way too long for something so insignificant and the two signings were made almost siimultaneously.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-22-05, 07:59 AM
I still remained surprised by the negativity in this thread. Sure, all of us can use stats, either way, selectively, to make our case.

Hear that sound coming from Boston? Yes, it is weeping. If he was such a poor player, such a negative influence on a team and a town, do you think they would care so much?

We probably overpaid a bit. So did the Dodgers for Furcal. Big deal. If there is one thing we have, it is money. Lots of it.

Four years? So what. We make him a DH for year 4. Please, please, nobody say that wouldn't be an upgrade over Ruben Sierra.

Leadoff or not? Does it matter? You're Shilling on May 1, 2006. Top of the 1st. Let's see...Damon, Jeter, Arod, Sheff, Matsui, Giambi, Cano. You can't breathe until number 8, and who knows, maybe Jorge will step it up to get his option. Olney's comment about "prayer beads" has a ring of truth to it.

We weren't getting Torii Hunter. Jeremy Reed and Jason Micheals would have taken some prospects and some effort, and both are bigger gambles (in terms of effort and talent received, not money) than Damon.

To lovers of this acquisition--enjoy it, and have some fun soaking up the Boston angst for a few days.

To haters of this acquisition--truly ask yourselves what the other options were, and what we gave up here except for some of our money.

The Yankees are better in 2006 because of it.

HomeBrewRSFan
12-22-05, 08:09 AM
I still remained surprised by the negativity in this thread. Sure, all of us can use stats, either way, selectively, to make our case.

We probably overpaid a bit. So did the Dodgers for Furcal. Big deal. If there is one thing we have, it is money. Lots of it.

Four years? So what. We make him a DH for year 4. Please, please, nobody say that wouldn't be an upgrade over Ruben Sierra.

To haters of this acquisition--truly ask yourselves what the other options were, and what we gave up here except for some of our money.

The Yankees are better in 2006 because of it. I know you probably hate stats, but please look at Damon's stats before the all-star break and after.

Look I am not trying to start a flame war, but a big part of your post and many others that I have read is that the one thing the Yankees have is money. "Who cares it's not my money". Which is interesting if you saw Murray Chass' article in the NYTimes today.

Also, honest question, but didn't I read last month that the Yankees lost money for the first time in decades last year and would probably be losing a lot more of it because they undervalued the YES Network revenue?

Yes the Yankees have scored a major coup here, but they outbid themselves because no one else was offering Damon that kind of money, and for good reason. I loved Johnny the first couple of years that he was here and most Yankee fans will love him next year. He plays After that I really think you are looking at another Bernie Williams (the only Yankee in recent times that I have wished became a Red Sox) and Damon will have none of the goodwill in NY that he had built up in Boston.

HomeBrewRSFan
12-22-05, 08:11 AM
Why? Why would Damon say that? Damon was offered the deal we heard reported Sunday night 5/52.
You'll get used to that, unless the Yanks (Jeter?) are able to put a muzzle on him you will be seeing a lot more quotes from the 2006 - 2010 Yankees clubhouse.

texasyankee
12-22-05, 08:16 AM
Curse of the Dambino! :roflmao:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ips_rich_content/837-BACK_BIG.jpg

Yankees1962
12-22-05, 08:18 AM
Why? Why would Damon say that? Damon was offered the deal we heard reported Sunday night 5/52. It was reported Sunday and confirmed by Damon yesterday. That is good enough for me.

Do you not think Cash might play politics too?
To protect his agent and to make the Sox look bad for not going the extra mile while the Yankees were.

RobRiv
12-22-05, 08:21 AM
Mind changing is against the rules.

...unless you're Johnny Damon, apparently.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-22-05, 08:48 AM
I know you probably hate stats, but please look at Damon's stats before the all-star break and after.

Look I am not trying to start a flame war, but a big part of your post and many others that I have read is that the one thing the Yankees have is money. "Who cares it's not my money". Which is interesting if you saw Murray Chass' article in the NYTimes today.

Also, honest question, but didn't I read last month that the Yankees lost money for the first time in decades last year and would probably be losing a lot more of it because they undervalued the YES Network revenue?

Yes the Yankees have scored a major coup here, but they outbid themselves because no one else was offering Damon that kind of money, and for good reason. I loved Johnny the first couple of years that he was here and most Yankee fans will love him next year. He plays After that I really think you are looking at another Bernie Williams (the only Yankee in recent times that I have wished became a Red Sox) and Damon will have none of the goodwill in NY that he had built up in Boston.

I take it from your screen name that you are a Red Sox fan. Your response to my post makes my point--you are upset that the Sox lost Damon, and with good reason.

If the Yankees didn't have the money, they would not have signed Damon. The Yankees have money--tons of it, by the way--because unlike the Red Sox, they understand that you have to spend money to make money. I am really surprised that John Henry (who seems like a pretty smart guy) doesn't appear to get that point--or maybe he is letting Luccino make too many decisions.

Brian Cashman made that clear last month when he decided to stay as GM (note that one of the reasons he stayed is that the Yankees didn't nickel and dime him like the Red Sox did to Theo). The difference is that the Yankees will pay a bit of a premium now, and not ridiculously like they did in the past.

I am interested in Murray Chass article, and I will try to read it today. However, I take with a grain of salt anything that comes from a newspaper organization that owns 17% of the Red Sox.

We Yankee fans beleive we have at least 2-3 good years out of Damon, and to be honest, I expect 4. Not Manny levels, but decent enough. Damon has enough intangibles to make him valuable to a team is a way stats cannot define. Look at the Red Sox, as an example.

HomeBrewRSFan
12-22-05, 08:55 AM
I take it from your screen name that you are a Red Sox fan. Your response to my post makes my point--you are upset that the Sox lost Damon, and with good reason.

If the Yankees didn't have the money, they would not have signed Damon. The Yankees have money--tons of it, by the way--because unlike the Red Sox, they understand that you have to spend money to make money. I am really surprised that John Henry (who seems like a pretty smart guy) doesn't appear to get that point--or maybe he is letting Luccino make too many decisions.

Brian Cashman made that clear last month when he decided to stay as GM (note that one of the reasons he stayed is that the Yankees didn't nickel and dime him like the Red Sox did to Theo). The difference is that the Yankees will pay a bit of a premium now, and not ridiculously like they did in the past.

I am interested in Murray Chass article, and I will try to read it today. However, I take with a grain of salt anything that comes from a newspaper organization that owns 17% of the Red Sox.

We Yankee fans beleive we have at least 2-3 good years out of Damon, and to be honest, I expect 4. Not Manny levels, but decent enough. Damon has enough intangibles to make him valuable to a team is a way stats cannot define. Look at the Red Sox, as an example.
Wow you really are astute, I put the RSfan in my name so there is no confusion over who I root for and so I can not be accused of trolling. Your response ignores about 90% of my post, most of which had to do with the Yankees losing money last year and how thier resources may not be unlimited.

And please only speak for yourself and not all of Yankee Fandom because there are quite a few fans on this board that do not like this signing.

CoyoteYankee
12-22-05, 09:02 AM
The words of Damon's father:

""Mark it down: It's going to be another Babe Ruth," Jimmy Damon told The News from his Florida home. "They sent Johnny off just like they sent off Babe Ruth. It's going to be another big, big mistake. They made the biggest mistake of their lives.""



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/376847p-320176c.html

:lol: What's Mr. Damon smoking? I want some.

Hitman23
12-22-05, 09:25 AM
I like the deal alot. :cool:

But the obsession with his hair needs to stop. Give it a friggin rest. He's no exception to the rule.

pedromartinezfan
12-22-05, 09:26 AM
Damon had a .371 BABIP before the All-Star break and a .295 BABIP after the All-Star break. The league average was .298, and Damon's OPS before the ASB was .859. His OPS after the All-Star break was .740. Do the math. Which OPS came when his BABIP was closer to the league average and not ridiculously high?

gdn
12-22-05, 09:26 AM
Some pitiful commentary from a guy who writes for "Too late with Adam Corolla":

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5188220


# A centerfielder against whom even 36-year-old backup catchers will go from first to third at will. Have you ever thrown a baseball or football with your opposite hand? This is precisely what it looks like Damon is doing when he uncorks one of his weak, high-arcing parabolas that leave the cutoff man contemplating a fair catch as everybody moves up an extra base. Yes, Damon will match his predecessor Bernie Williams lollipop for lollipop, so Yankees fans will not have to adjust their expectations when it comes to the arm of their centerfielder.

# A leadoff man who has posted a .342 on-base percentage away from Fenway Park the past four seasons in Damon's athletic prime. He'll still get to play nine or 10 games a season at Fenway as a visitor with the Evil Empire, but Yankees fans can expect his OBP to be closer to that .342 mark than the .383 he enjoyed at the friendly confines. A sampling of hitters who exceeded a .342 OBP last year includes free-swinging Juan Encarnacion, possible Damon replacement Coco Crisp and legendary hacker Shea Hillenbrand, who had a .343 OBP despite walking only 26 times.

pedromartinezfan
12-22-05, 09:29 AM
Some pitiful commentary from a guy who writes for "Too late with Adam Corolla":

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5188220How is that pitiful commentary?

HomeBrewRSFan
12-22-05, 09:32 AM
How is that pitiful commentary?
Because he had the audacity (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=audacity) to question the trade.

brosiusbuddy
12-22-05, 09:32 AM
To an extent, what Damon lacks in arm strength he makes up for with good baseball smarts and an accurate throws. I've seen him plenty of times and can't think of one time he threw to a wrong bag or missed a cut-off man. .

I dunno what value accuracy has when the throw is reaching cutoff men on a hop

Hitman23
12-22-05, 09:33 AM
How is that pitiful commentary?The "high-arcing parabola" comment is true and hilarious.

But the OBP is yet to be determined.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 09:33 AM
To protect his agent and to make the Sox look bad for not going the extra mile while the Yankees were.

That's just plain silly and your stretching it in order to show Cashman is as concerned as you are about counting Yankee pennies and the Yankees payroll.

If Damon said Cashman offered 5, then Cashman offered 5. Why would Damon lie about his new employer????? He's signed, sealed and delivered and has no reason to use any ploys whatsoever.

gdn
12-22-05, 09:34 AM
How is that pitiful commentary?I'm sorry. I meant to say pithy. Haven't had coffee yet.

ring403
12-22-05, 09:36 AM
Why? Why would Damon say that? Damon was offered the deal we heard reported Sunday night 5/52. It was reported Sunday and confirmed by Damon yesterday. That is good enough for me.

Do you not think Cash might play politics too?
Cashman never once waivered from his insistence on going no more than 4 years for Damon. There is absolutely no reason to believe the words of Scott Boras, who has a well established reputation for "stretching" the truth, over those of Brian Cashman, who has exactly the opposite reputation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/sports/baseball/22yanks.html?pagewanted=1

Early this week, Boras said, Damon directed him to negotiate with the Red Sox and the Yankees. Boras said he called Yankees General Manager Brian Cashman on Tuesday and told him to make a five-year offer. He said he told the same thing to John Henry, the principal owner of the Red Sox.

"I let him know: 'We may get it done tonight,' " Boras said.

The Yankees sensed an opening. The Red Sox had said they were making contingency plans in case they lost Damon. There would also be more center fielders to choose from on the free-agent market after Tuesday's deadline for teams to tender contracts to their arbitration-eligible players. The Yankees would never agree to a contract longer than four years. But by offering Damon $13 million per season - the same average salary as their other outfielders, Hideki Matsui and Gary Sheffield - they believed Boras might accept that as fair market value.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 09:37 AM
Cashman never once waivered from his insistence on going no more than 4 years for Damon. There is absolutely no reason to believe the words of Scott Boras, who has a well established reputation for "stretching" the truth, over those of Brian Cashman, who has exactly the opposite reputation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/sports/baseball/22yanks.html?pagewanted=1

But John, Damon himself said it. Would he lie about his new bosses a day after the signing? What and where would that get him? I think it's highly unlikely.

yankeebot
12-22-05, 09:41 AM
But John, Damon himself said it. Would he lie about his new bosses a day after the signing? What and where would that get him? I think it's highly unlikely.
Could he just be repeating what he was told by his agent who, for some unknown reason, he most likely trusts?

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 09:44 AM
Cashman never once waivered from his insistence on going no more than 4 years for Damon. There is absolutely no reason to believe the words of Scott Boras, who has a well established reputation for "stretching" the truth, over those of Brian Cashman, who has exactly the opposite reputation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/sports/baseball/22yanks.html?pagewanted=1

Also, that article is the writer's interpretation of the events and not a quote from Cashman. Now if Cashman were to come out and deny that he offered 5 years, then yeah, you'd have to wonder where Damon is coming from.

I also don't think Damon is quoting a Boros lie, because he made it sound like it was indeed an offer that he could have accepted, but instead opted for 4 years and more money per.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 09:46 AM
Could he just be repeating what he was told by his agent who, for some unknown reason, he most likely trusts?

I answered that in my last post (above). I also heard it from Damon's mouth (the interview) and he was the one who declined 5 years. I don't think an agent is going to tell him I can get you 5 rigth now and then when the player (Damon) agrees, the agent says, "Just kidding!"

nhyankeefan
12-22-05, 09:48 AM
Also, that article is the writer's interpretation of the events and not a quote from Cashman. Now if Cashman were to come out and deny that he offered 5 years, then yeah, you'd have to wonder where Damon is coming from.

I also don't think Damon is quoting a Boros lie, because he made it sound like it was indeed an offer that he could have accepted, but instead opted for 4 years and more money per.

From the Globe...


but if it was the Yankees' offer to which he was referring, he never made it clear the fifth year was a club option, and that the guaranteed money was the same in a four-year or five-year proposal.

Based on this description, it looks like Boras and Cashman are both telling the truth although Boras was definitely stretching it.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/22/no_need_for_it_to_end_like_this/

ring403
12-22-05, 09:50 AM
Also, that article is the writer's interpretation of the events and not a quote from Cashman. Now if Cashman were to come out and deny that he offered 5 years, then yeah, you'd have to wonder where Damon is coming from.

I also don't think Damon is quoting a Boros lie, because he made it sound like it was indeed an offer that he could have accepted, but instead opted for 4 years and more money per.
Boras is notorious for giving his clients limited, and sometimes "exaggerated" information. I have no doubt that Damon was told by Boras that there was a 5 year offer on the table.

http://northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTMmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY4NDM0NTImeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2
One high-ranking baseball executive from another team said Cashman's timing was perfect, given Boras' negotiating profile. He said it's not unlike Boras to "separate his client from the process" which can destroy the good will between a player and his former team.

Indeed, the love between Damon and his Fenway friends was systematically filtered out by Boras and his maddeningly slow pace. Days, sometimes weeks, would pass before phone calls were returned by the agent, during which time both sides hardened.

"After awhile, you tend to say, '[To hell with] him, they're not even getting on the phone with us,'" said the official. "That's why it's so hard to do a deal with Boras."

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 09:51 AM
I wasn't around so I'm not sure if you guys discussed this, but the day before the signing, former Ginat/Pat abd currently a Boston broadcaster, Steve DeOssie, who is supposedly tight with Damon, reported that Damon was close to signing a 5 year contract with the Yanks. Undoubtedly that offer was on the table and restructured to 4 years the next day.

And I don't mind it one bit that Cashman was doing whatever it took to improve the team. Damon will ONLY be 35 at contracts end so kudos to Cash.

JDPNYY
12-22-05, 09:52 AM
Kevin Millwood

HomeBrewRSFan
12-22-05, 09:53 AM
And I don't mind it one bit that Cashman was doing whatever it took to improve the team. Damon will ONLY be 35 at contracts end so kudos to Cash.
I thought it was 36, but either way it is going to be an old 35 or 36 because of his "all out" style of play. It's commendable but harmful to his long term health.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 09:55 AM
Boras is notorious for giving his clients limited, and sometimes "exaggerated" information. I have no doubt that Damon was told by Boras that there was a 5 year offer on the table.

http://northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTMmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY4NDM0NTImeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

For argument's sake, let's assume that's the case. What happens if Damon said, "Sure, go for the 5 with the Yanks" if that offer wasn't even legit? I'm not sure agents play those mind games with their own clients.

Cashman has yet to have been quoted as denying the 5. And you know what? If he DID go to 5 years, in the name of improving this club, I'd still tip my cap to Cashman. Damon is still young and in his prime. To me, going 3 years for Giles, who is older now than Damon will be at his contract's end, would have been more of a risk.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 09:56 AM
I thought it was 36, but either way it is going to be an old 35 or 36 because of his "all out" style of play. It's commendable but harmful to his long term health.

He'll be 35 1/2. He just turned 32 in November. That is STILL his prime, so this was a great move by Cashman.

yankeebot
12-22-05, 09:57 AM
I answered that in my last post (above). I also heard it from Damon's mouth (the interview) and he was the one who declined 5 years. I don't think an agent is going to tell him I can get you 5 rigth now and then when the player (Damon) agrees, the agent says, "Just kidding!"Of course not but if the agent says a 5th year is offered but it is not structured to our liking and the guaranteed money is the same so we should decline it and accept the 4 year deal the player is going to take the agent's advice. Especially if the agent is Scott Boras. Love him or hate him he rarely fails his client. (exception Millwood). I don't believe Boras is above bluffing his own client if he believes it will help his cause.

We will probably never know exactly what transpired nor should we. And I guess it doesn't really matter to me.

Yankees1962
12-22-05, 09:57 AM
I thought it was 36, but either way it is going to be an old 35 or 36 because of his "all out" style of play. It's commendable but harmful to his long term health.
I have seriously doubts that you would have said the same thing on this forum if your Red Sox had signed him to that 4 year 40M contract. Nothing, but sour grapes on your part!

hobokenfish
12-22-05, 09:57 AM
Ah, Andre Robertson, a good ole University of Texas boy, and would've been a terrific Yankee shortstop except for a car accident. Too damn bad.

Really was a shame -- he had a lot of promise. Whenever I see no. 18, I think of Robertson.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 09:57 AM
Kevin Millwood

Looks like the Sox from what I've read.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 09:58 AM
I have seriously doubts that you would have said the same thing on this forum if your Red Sox had signed him to that 4 year 40M contract. Nothing, but sour grapes on your part!

It's odd how Sox players become old and broken down when they leave the Sox.........at least in Sox fan's minds.

JDPNYY
12-22-05, 09:59 AM
Looks like the Sox from what I've read.

I was throwing that out there for all the great offers he was getting the last time he was a free agent. You know, the evaporating offers.

Jasbro
12-22-05, 10:00 AM
I thought it was 36, but either way it is going to be an old 35 or 36 because of his "all out" style of play. It's commendable but harmful to his long term health.

Just because he got nicked up last year going "all out" does not mean that he is doomed to rapidly decline from this point out. Pete Rose went "all-out" for quite some time and had quite a lengthy career. Derek Jeter is one year younger than Damon -- he goes all-out all the time and I don't anticipate his career being cut short.

Damon is a far better specimen than someone like Brian Giles, and nobody seemed too worried about guaranteeing him huge money through age 38. One nicked up (yet still very productive) year at the relatively young age of 32 does not portend a rapid decline to an objective observer.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 10:00 AM
Of course not but if the agent says a 5th year is offered but it is not structured to our liking and the guaranteed money is the same so we should decline it and accept the 4 year deal the player is going to take the agent's advice. Especially if the agent is Scott Boras. Love him or hate him he rarely fails his client. (exception Millwood). I don't believe Boras is above bluffing his own client if he believes it will help his cause.

We will probably never know exactly what transpired nor should we. And I guess it doesn't really matter to me.

True, we'll never really know and I agree it hardly matters. That said, I sense that Boros takes teams he's negotiating with for a ride and not necessarily the player who is his client, but I might be wrong. He's a snake.

Yankees1962
12-22-05, 10:00 AM
I hope at the news conference one of the reporters ask Cashman about that supposed five year offer, so he can shut up those people that doubt his resolve not to go over four years.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 10:01 AM
I was throwing that out there for all the great offers he was getting the last time he was a free agent. You know the evaporating offers.
Ahhhhhhh. My mistake.

HomeBrewRSFan
12-22-05, 10:02 AM
I have seriously doubts that you would have said the same thing on this forum if your Red Sox had signed him to that 4 year 40M contract. Nothing, but sour grapes on your part!
Read what you want into my post, but whether you pay 40million for him or 52 million the guy is going to break down.

Also for those who think I am full of crap in my line of thinking about Damon I am Lowe's Psyche on another sox board. Take a look at what I said on November 17th before the Yankees were even involved (http://www.blairwasdin.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1211&start=0).


I think part of it is that everyone has been prepared for this since the start of the season. You can look at multiple factors:

1. Represented by Scott Boras.
2. Noodle arm
3. Cooled off at the end of the season. Had he produced at the same clip as the beginning of the season you would be seeing more of a reaction.
4. He pretty much made it known from day 1 he would not accept a home town discount.
5. I don't think there was a city that the Sox played in where Damon didn't say he would like to play there next year.
6. He opened his trap a bunch of times making his opinions known.

That's just to name a few things. Yes he is a decent lead off hitter, but everyone sees that as hard as he plays he is damaged goods.

Had Pedro come out last year stating he wanted 7/84 then I think even he would have been met with the same reaction that Damon is being met with now. Instead Pedro and the Sox danced and negotiated so there always seemed to be a chance that Pedro would re-sign. I don't think anyone expects Damon to be a Sox to they are moving on.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 10:02 AM
I hope at the news conference one of the reporters ask Cashman about that supposed five year offer, so he can shut up those people that doubt his resolve not to go over four years.

Who even cares????? Cashman improved the team and that's all that matters. Why is the Yankee payroll and how well Cashman guards it such a concern for you?

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 10:05 AM
Read what you want into my post, but whether you pay 40million for him or 52 million the guy is going to break down.

Also for those who think I am full of crap in my line of thinking about Damon I am Lowe's Psyche on another sox board. Take a look at what I said on November 17th before the Yankees were even involved (http://www.blairwasdin.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1211&start=0).

Why do you even care about Damon going to the Yanks to the point of coming here with your "Buyer Beware" warnings to Yanks fans? What are you getting out of telling us that the player you probably worshipped in 2005 is no more than damaged goods now that he's in pinstripes? I'm not so sure that's a smart move on a Yankee's board to be quite honest.

Hitman23
12-22-05, 10:06 AM
Who even cares????? He improved the team and that's all that matters. Why is the Yankee payroll and how well Cashman guards it such a concern for you?Well, the details of the negotiations are very important here. Forget what's actually in writing, it's how we got there that's important.

I, for one, hope all the controversy about the "he said, she said" bullsh*t gets more involved. And if all goes well, a "Should Johnny Cut His Hair" reality show will be airing in a few weeks. It'sll be a hit, he is GLOBAL afterall! I'm pumped about all this mindless bullsh*t being news!

Jasbro
12-22-05, 10:06 AM
Who even cares????? He improved the team and that's all that matters. Why is the Yankee payroll and how well Cashman guards it such a concern for you?

Exactly. Cashman has been very disciplined this offseason, focusing like a laser beam on the team's holes -- and has followed his publicly discussed plan without fail. The team is vastly improved from where they were at the end of last season, AND has reduced payroll by 10-15% in the process.

YankeeFan1
12-22-05, 10:07 AM
I don't believe Boras that the Yankees made a 5 year offer. Why would they? I think that he is just spinning to make Damon's decision to sign with the Yankees look better.

silverdsl
12-22-05, 10:07 AM
I'm not sure any other mods addressed this and even if they did it probably got lost anyway, as this post eventually will too in a thread this long, but as a reminder, Johnny Damon's wife is off-limits as a topic of discussion as is all other discussions about the players significant others unless it involves something newsworthy. Thanks.

-Deborah

effdamets
12-22-05, 10:07 AM
do you think Kevin Brown at 15 per didn't hurt the Yankees? Do you think the last years of Bernie at around 12 per didn't hurt the Yankees? Do you think Moose pitching like a league average pitcher for 18-19 per doesn't hurt the Yankees?

No. Kevin Brown at 15 per or Bernie at 12 per did not hurt the Yankees! The fact that they did not do their job hurt them. Whether you are paying a guy a dollar or 20 million, if they don't do their job, that is what hurts the team.

If the Yankees would have won the World Series the last two seasons, would the 15 per or 12 per have hurt them?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-22-05, 10:09 AM
Any word on the press conference?

HomeBrewRSFan
12-22-05, 10:09 AM
Why do you even care about Damon going to the Yanks to the point of coming here with your "Buyer Beware" warnings to Yanks fans? What are you getting out of telling us that the player you probably worshipped in 2005 is no more than damaged goods now that he's in pinstripes? I'm not so sure that's a smart move on a Yankee's board to be quite honest.
Look, I'm going to leave now. I was trying to have a conversation about Damon joining your team and I was being accused of having sour grapes. Once I prove that it really isn't sour grapes, I am now getting something out of discussing my opinions on his future with the Yankees.
Continue on with your fanboy ways, congrats on the signing I hope you are happy with him.

Hitman23
12-22-05, 10:09 AM
No. Kevin Brown at 15 per or Bernie at 12 per did not hurt the Yankees! The fact that they did not do their job hurt them. Whether you are paying a guy a dollar or 20 million, if they don't do their job, that is what hurts the team.

If the Yankees would have won the World Series the last two seasons, would the 15 per or 12 per have hurt them?great POV. I agree.

Little Big Sheff
12-22-05, 10:09 AM
I have seriously doubts that you would have said the same thing on this forum if your Red Sox had signed him to that 4 year 40M contract. Nothing, but sour grapes on your part!

The opposite holds true as well : had the Sox signed Damon for 4/52, lots of people wouldn't rationalize the deal like this, and would call this a bad signing.

C-BUS CLIPPER
12-22-05, 10:10 AM
Read what you want into my post, but whether you pay 40million for him or 52 million the guy is going to break down.

Also for those who think I am full of crap in my line of thinking about Damon I am Lowe's Psyche on another sox board. Take a look at what I said on November 17th before the Yankees were even involved (http://www.blairwasdin.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1211&start=0).

WOW. Youre a GD genius. Lets all bask in your wisdom. :drool:

Spiker101
12-22-05, 10:10 AM
I know you probably hate stats, but please look at Damon's stats before the all-star break and after.

Look I am not trying to start a flame war, but a big part of your post and many others that I have read is that the one thing the Yankees have is money. "Who cares it's not my money". Which is interesting if you saw Murray Chass' article in the NYTimes today.

Also, honest question, but didn't I read last month that the Yankees lost money for the first time in decades last year and would probably be losing a lot more of it because they undervalued the YES Network revenue?

Yes the Yankees have scored a major coup here, but they outbid themselves because no one else was offering Damon that kind of money, and for good reason. I loved Johnny the first couple of years that he was here and most Yankee fans will love him next year. He plays After that I really think you are looking at another Bernie Williams (the only Yankee in recent times that I have wished became a Red Sox) and Damon will have none of the goodwill in NY that he had built up in Boston.

For a Red Sox fan you apparently didn't pay much attention to the team last year. Damon fell off in the second half last year because of a nagging shoulder injury.

The Yankees are a corporate conglomerate. The team itself was in the red, but that doesn't mean Steinbrenner lost money. The profits of the YES network more than covered the team's losses. But beyond that, the organization is focusing on keeping the team at the top of the sport in anticipation of a new stadium that will further the team's profitability. If I were you I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep worrying about the Yankees' financial wherewithal.

You're factually incorrect stating that the Yanks were bidding against themselves for Damon. There was a third team offering more money, almost certainly the Orioles, probably in response to Tejada and the unhappiness of their own fan base. And the Sox probably would have been bidding against the Yanks, except they were probably too busy Christmas shopping to pay much attention to business.

I'm really enjoying the concern of Sox fans about the declining, aging Damon (maybe we ought to be calling Johnny DAD). Now, I'm not one of those who thinks he's a superstar. He's a role player, a very good one, and for the Yankees it's a role they desperately needed filled.
He's 32 and when the contract is over he'll be 35. His body type is totally unlike Bernie's. Damon has never had a history of injuries or surgeries, which wasn't the case with Bernie. The odds are good that Damon will be at worst a solid, productive player when his contract ends.
With Damon's signing, the Yanks no longer have any major holes, which hasn't been the case for a while now, though that's not to say they don't have questions. All teams have questions, it's just that the Yanks have fewer of them than anyone else.
And the payroll is in relatively rational order now. After '06. $30 million comes off in Sheffield and Mussina, after '07, $40 million comes off in Johnson, Rivera and Posada, after '08, another $30 million comes off in Giambi and Pavano. So long as ARod, Jeter, Matsui, Damon stay healthy, the Yanks figure to be at or near the very top of the sport for the remainder of the decade.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 10:11 AM
Well, the details of the negotiations are very important here. Forget what's actually in writing, it's how we got there that's important.

I, for one, hope all the controversy about the "he said, she said" bullsh*t gets more involved. And if all goes well, a "Should Johnny Cut His Hair" reality show will be airing in a few weeks. It'sll be a hit, he is GLOBAL afterall! I'm pumped about all this mindless bullsh*t being news!

You mean you don't go to the Stadium and instead of a scorecard bring a spreadsheet and tabulate how much each hit costs the Yanks????

Yankees1962
12-22-05, 10:11 AM
The opposite holds true as well : had the Sox signed Damon for 4/52, lots of people wouldn't rationalize the deal like this, and would call this a bad signing.

Lots of people on this forum wouldn't have said a thing because it would've been a Red Sox issue and not a Yankee one.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-22-05, 10:11 AM
Wow you really are astute, I put the RSfan in my name so there is no confusion over who I root for and so I can not be accused of trolling. Your response ignores about 90% of my post, most of which had to do with the Yankees losing money last year and how thier resources may not be unlimited.

And please only speak for yourself and not all of Yankee Fandom because there are quite a few fans on this board that do not like this signing.

If you think the Yankees really lost money I've got a bridge to sell you. Teams hide money all the time, the books are altered to fit how the team would like to present itself. The Yankees have deals all over the globe, with Man U in England, with the Tokyo Giants (the Matsui cash cow), and even some deals with the NY Giants. The next big thing that the Yankees are going to do is they are going to have MLB pay for the majority of the new Yankee Stadium thanks to loopholes in the revenue sharing plan and luxury tax. Since that is just a few years away, it's time to try to get the PR machine going that they are losing money when the rest of MLB, and more importantly, the media wakes up and sees that the Yankees have some extremely smart businessmen at the top of their organization, and they saw a deal that was created to punish the Yankees (they were the only ones to vote against it) and will use it to help fund the new Stadium, where they will get their luxury boxes and...oh yes, make even more money.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 10:12 AM
For a Red Sox fan you apparently didn't pay much attention to the team last year. Damon fell off in the second half last year because of a nagging shoulder injury.



Shhhh. Sox fans don't want us knowing the truth. BTW, good job on that post.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-22-05, 10:13 AM
Last year, the Yankees payroll was over $200mil. After the signing of Damon, its down to $186 mil. Not a bad start.

JDPNYY
12-22-05, 10:14 AM
No. Kevin Brown at 15 per or Bernie at 12 per did not hurt the Yankees! The fact that they did not do their job hurt them. Whether you are paying a guy a dollar or 20 million, if they don't do their job, that is what hurts the team.

If the Yankees would have won the World Series the last two seasons, would the 15 per or 12 per have hurt them?

Kevin Brown at 15 million and Bernie at 12 more did indeed hurt the Yankees in 2005. It stopped the Yankees from making other deals that may have helped the Yankees go further in the playoffs.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-22-05, 10:14 AM
Kevin Brown at 15 million and Bernie at 12 more did indeed hurt the Yankees in 2005. It stopped the Yankees from making other deals that may have helped the Yankees go further in the playoffs.

The fact we have no farm system stopped the Yankees from making other deals that may have helped the Yankees go further in the playoffs

Hitman23
12-22-05, 10:15 AM
You mean you don't go to the Stadium and instead of a scorecard bring a spreadsheet and tabulate how much each hit costs the Yanks????why should I waste time? I'm sure there's a thread around here somenwhere....

Yankees1962
12-22-05, 10:16 AM
The fact we have no farm system stopped the Yankees from making other deals that may have helped the Yankees go further in the playoffs
A situation that Cashman appears to be committed to correcting.

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 10:16 AM
Also.....

That "other" board got Damon suddenly with a torn cuff. It's amazing the lengths some fans go through; it's an obvious defense mechanism. 99% of Sox fans are sick to their stomachs losing their CF/leadoff man and watching their team having to struggle and overpay to replace him. Bank on that

HomeBrewRSFan
12-22-05, 10:16 AM
The Yankees are a corporate conglomerate. The team itself was in the red, but that doesn't mean Steinbrenner lost money. The profits of the YES network more than covered the team's losses. But beyond that, the organization is focusing on keeping the team at the top of the sport in anticipation of a new stadium that will further the team's profitability. If I were you I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep worrying about the Yankees' financial wherewithal.

You're factually incorrect stating that the Yanks were bidding against themselves for Damon. There was a third team offering more money, almost certainly the Orioles, probably in response to Tejada and the unhappiness of their own fan base. And the Sox probably would have been bidding against the Yanks, except they were probably too busy Christmas shopping to pay much attention to business.

I'm really enjoying the concern of Sox fans about the declining, aging Damon (maybe we ought to be calling Johnny DAD). Now, I'm not one of those who thinks he's a superstar. He's a role player, a very good one, and for the Yankees it's a role they desperately needed filled.
He's 32 and when the contract is over he'll be 35. His body type is totally unlike Bernie's. Damon has never had a history of injuries or surgeries, which wasn't the case with Bernie. The odds are good that Damon will be at worst a solid, productive player when his contract ends.
With Damon's signing, the Yanks no longer have any major holes, which hasn't been the case for a while now, though that's not to say they don't have questions. All teams have questions, it's just that the Yanks have fewer of them than anyone else.
And the payroll is in relatively rational order now. After '06. $30 million comes off in Sheffield and Mussina, after '07, $40 million comes off in Johnson, Rivera and Posada, after '08, another $30 million comes off in Giambi and Pavano. So long as ARod, Jeter, Matsui, Damon stay healthy, the Yanks figure to be at or near the very top of the sport for the remainder of the decade.Aside from the personal digs, that was a well thought out post and description about why you like the contract and why it won't hurt the Yankees financially. With regards to the conglomerate I didn't think of it that way, thanks.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-22-05, 10:16 AM
A situation that Cashman appears to be committed to correcting.

Which is exactly why overpaying for Damon is better than tradinng our chips for some washed up CF, or a centerfielder that has never had a full season

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 10:17 AM
why should I waste time? I'm sure there's a thread around here somenwhere....

:lol:

Hitman23
12-22-05, 10:17 AM
The fact we have no farm system stopped the Yankees from making other deals that may have helped the Yankees go further in the playoffsI disagree, for two reasons....

Payroll is really no issue to a point. If they need something, I doubt anyone's contract is holding up George from making the deal.

The poster you quoted is right. Had both of those players lived up to what was expected, it wouldn't have been an issue. If Sheff tanked over the last few years, we'd be all over his contract as well. But he's been a monster for us, so no one says anything.

BronxByTheBay
12-22-05, 10:17 AM
Also.....

That "other" board got Damon suddenly with a torn cuff. It's amazing the lengths some fans go through; it's an obvious defense mechanism. 99% of Sox fans are sick to their stomachs losing their CF/leadoff man and watching their team having to struggle and overpay to replace him. Bank on that

A torn cuff? Good thing the Sox were only willing to go 4/40 then, eh?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-22-05, 10:19 AM
I disagree, for two reasons....

Payroll is really no issue to a point. If they need something, I doubt anyone's contract is holding up George from making the deal.

The poster you quoted is right. Had both of those players lived up to what was expected, it wouldn't have been an issue. If Sheff tanked over the last few years, we'd be all over his contract as well. But he's been a monster for us, so no one says anything.


We knew coming into last season we didn't have a centerfielder. We also knew Brown, like everyother year wouldn't be healthy. We didn't make anymoves last offseason to fix it, and moves clearly could've been made within the boundaries of of roster (Beltran)

Dooley Womack
12-22-05, 10:19 AM
Kevin Brown at 15 million and Bernie at 12 more did indeed hurt the Yankees in 2005. It stopped the Yankees from making other deals that may have helped the Yankees go further in the playoffs.

Sure did. To do what the Yanks have done this far and still be at "only" 186 million is a stroke of genius and I have to take back some things I said about Cashman because I didn't see this coming.

There's still room for a Durazo for 1b/DH help and maybe more pitching (if we swing a trade).

Jasbro
12-22-05, 10:20 AM
I dont believe Boras that the Yankees made a 5 year offer. Why would they? I think that he is just spinning to make Damon's decision to sign with the Yankees look better.


Even if they did offer 5 years, didn't Damon say that he turned that structure down because it was for LESS guaranteed money than the 4 year deal?

That sounds like damn good negotiating by Cashman to me: "We can give you five years, but you have to share some of the risk by taking less guaranteed money. OR, we can give you four and reward you a bit with a small overpay to help keep our time-commitment risk a little lower..."

Saxmania
12-22-05, 10:20 AM
Since the reference I heard was for less guaranteed money, isn't it likely that Cashman offered something like:

4 years x $13 million = $52 million guaranteed, OR
4 years x $11.5 million = $46 million guarateed PLUS a 1-year $12 million option that vests automatically with at least 2000 ABs over the four years (don't harass me on the details, just a guess)

Don't you think? It would fit with the Jaret Wright/Jorge Posada format of contract, include the 5th year that Boras/Damon are claiming, but also allow Cashman to argue that he didn't offer 5 years because the fifth wasn't guaranteed.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Hitman23
12-22-05, 10:21 AM
We knew coming into last season we didn't have a centerfielder. We also knew Brown, like everyother year wouldn't be healthy. We didn't make anymoves last offseason to fix it, and moves clearly could've been made within the boundaries of of roster (Beltran)The interview I heard prior to the start of last season says the Yanks weren't giving Beltran the money he was after. That had nothing to do with who was already slated for CF. If he had come down in price or years, a deal may have been done.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-22-05, 10:22 AM
The interview I heard prior to the start of last season says the Yanks weren't giving Beltran the money he was after. That had nothing to do with who was already slated for CF. If he had come down in price or years, a deal may have been done.

Thats what happens when you give Pavano $40mil and Wright $30mil. Having Brown on the team didn't stop us from overpaying for 2 awful pitchers