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PoughVirginiaYankee
12-21-05, 10:25 AM
"There's no way I can go play for the Yankees, but I know they're going to come after me hard," he said on May 3. "It's definitely not the most important thing to go out there for the top dollar, which the Yankees are going to offer me. It's not what I need."
- Johnny Damon

heh.
hahaha

Jace
12-21-05, 10:25 AM
Yea, no kidding. I've lost all respect for him with this move because either one of two things happened:

1. he orchestrated this move
2. he acted like standing up to Steinbrenner and actually controlling the organization was going to be a priority for him in re-signing with the Yanks this offseason, if so he already folded up to Steinbrenner (or Tampa's) pressure and error filled decision making process

Good golly. George is his boss, if George orders him to sign Damon for 4 years whatever it takes, it doesn't matter how much he doesn't have to listen to Billy Connors, he does it or gets fired.

If he did all the bullpen stuff on his own and then George ordered him to get Damon, then he did a great job. If he got Damon on his own, then he got one of the 2 or so best CFs for next year and the year after. Its a big overpay, but 4 years isn't 7 and the Yankees can eat it. Its inefficient but you just have to pay for the best.

drjeckyl
12-21-05, 10:26 AM
I don't know.

Bernie brought us 4 rings, but it was still pretty painful watching him play CF the last two years, wouldn't you say?

However, Bernie continued to play CF mainly for two reasons 1) sentiment and 2) there are no other options. in 08 and 09, neither will apply to him. So, it's likely we wont have to suffer..

wileedog
12-21-05, 10:26 AM
Hey, it just occured to me! Now WE can giddyup!

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw


:lol:

"Yankee-up!" doesn't quite have the same ring to it....

gdn
12-21-05, 10:27 AM
"Yankee-up!" doesn't quite have the same ring to it....Yeah, but what about the Yankee Doodle Dandy!


:cheer:

shotgun_sam
12-21-05, 10:27 AM
Hey, it just occured to me! Now WE can giddyup!

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw


:lol:


No wait, we need Millar for the full effect.

Did you know that a month ago, Millar was trying to convinve Damon and Mueller to team up for an "Idiot package deal", where a team would get all three to provide a "championship spark" to a club?

Talk about an organized way to ride some coat tails..

wileedog
12-21-05, 10:28 AM
in 08 and 09, neither will apply to him. So, it's likely we wont have to suffer..

We're going to bench a $13M player for two seasons to play someone else? Not likely.

Although I will state for the record that I don't think Damon will be quite as bad as Bernie was at the end.

gdn
12-21-05, 10:29 AM
No wait, we need Millar for the full effect.

Did you know that a month ago, Millar was trying to convinve Damon and Mueller to team up for an "Idiot package deal", where a team would get all three to provide a "championship spark" to a club?

Talk about an organized way to ride some coat tails..Millar? Which one is that? :p

shotgun_sam
12-21-05, 10:29 AM
Wow...guess I've come on late - went to bed early, woke up late.... but wow....couldn't believe my eyes when I checked out ESPN in the morning...wow



The first 3 pages of this thread are really entertaining, it was the doubt and denial part, when the story first broke

iWant27
12-21-05, 10:30 AM
Wow, so many of you are so negative about this move. Forget about the money. Johnny is only 32. He'll be 36 at the end of the contract. That's two years younger than Kenny Lofton is now (38) and he is still productive. As a Yankee fan you should be happy having a guy who can feel the leadoff AND centerfield jobs. One of the best guys in the league at that. Sure he has no arm and doesn't steal as much as he used to. But he is a patient hitter, a durable player, can hit pretty much any pitch, and best of all, he is a winner.

Forget the contract. It is what it is. We're Yankee fans people. Why are ugly contracts even a factor anymore? That never gonna change. Just look at the guy we picked up and realize he is the perfect fit. Redsox or not...


I agree with this . I think its a great addition for yankees offence and he does cover a lot of ground at center .

Dr. Gonzo
12-21-05, 10:30 AM
I feel like boston wanted us to do this all along. Pay much more money then they were willing. Make it seem that we are the big bad waller boogie man again. They can say that they tried and all, but they never wanted him. They knew signing damon was a dumb move.

yankeebot
12-21-05, 10:30 AM
"Yankee-up!" doesn't quite have the same ring to it....Yeah. And instead of "We're just a bunch of idiots." he will have to say "We are just a bunch of consummate professionals."

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 10:30 AM
Man, the negativity on this thread...cheer up, guys!

So he was the symbol of the worst defeat in Yankee history--get over it. Remember..."what does not kill you makes you stronger."

I figure 2 years out of him as CF, 1 year as RF (we sign someone like Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones in 08), and 1 year as DH.

Whatever we think of his fielding skills, the guy can hit, he's a lefty in Yankee Stadium, he's played 600+ AB in each of the last 8 years, he plays the game with intensity, he can handle the media and NY (in fact, he loves it), he has an amazing looking wife, and best of all...

We have totally screwed the Sawx.

I don't care if they trade for someone, it won't be Damon, and maybe they will somehow dump Manny in the process, ensuring their complete discombobulation in 06.

I'm dancing...

alversonk
12-21-05, 10:30 AM
I think this is a great move for a couple of reasons. 1. The contract isn't that terrible, sure he'll be aging when the contract gets over but everyone felt we owed it to Bernie to keep him in the lineup, and we won't owe it to Damon. 2. We stuck it to the Red Sux!, again to the contract, lets assume we only get 2 good years out of him and a couple mediocre ones. It's worth it because it kills the Red Sox now and thats worth 20-30 million of George's money.

YankeeFan1
12-21-05, 10:31 AM
I am now over my initial shock and denial. Welcome to the Yankees, Johnny Damon.

wileedog
12-21-05, 10:31 AM
Yeah. And instead of "We're just a bunch of idiots." he will have to say "We are just a bunch of consummate professionals."

Bastard.

I spit coffee on that one.

:-rofl-:

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 10:33 AM
Interesting stat. Yankees leadoff hitters have grounded into 36 double plays in the past 2 years, JD has hit into 12 in that time

RobRiv
12-21-05, 10:34 AM
So how long before Johnny Talkshow makes this official, showing off his new Yankee pinstripes on "Live with Regis and Kelly?" Uch.

Sam18
12-21-05, 10:34 AM
I am now over my initial shock and denial. Welcome to the Yankees, Johnny Damon.

Yeah, I guess I have to root for him now. So welcome Johnny!! Please don't be Bernie II.

Meecham4ever
12-21-05, 10:34 AM
Any word on the press conference? I wonder if he's shaved yet
WEEI is reporting that there's nothing in the agreement about Damon having to be clean shaven...also, the MLB Players Union will back Damon if he decides not to.

gdn
12-21-05, 10:35 AM
Interesting stat. Yankees leadoff hitters have grounded into 36 double plays in the past 2 years, JD has hit into 12 in that timeThe Yankees have had one leadoff hitter in the past two years.

Oh and...


:link:

:D

SoxIn4
12-21-05, 10:35 AM
Yanks got, arguably, the best lead off hitter in MLB. Having said that, his arm (which was weak when he got to Boston) has gotten noticably worse every year, and at $13million a year for 4 years, he isnt worth it. I'm disappointed to see him go, but this isn't devastating.

161st St & River Ave
12-21-05, 10:36 AM
2006 Murderer's Row. haha

BeantownYankee
12-21-05, 10:36 AM
No doubt but I don't think that Damon was the answer. Another CF for 4 years that can't throw, yippie
Yet everyone is ready to throw an unproven Michaels, Reed, and Patterson out there. Why? Because they're younger and don't cost as much. psst. They also don't produce much that's why they're available.

Maynerd
12-21-05, 10:36 AM
I was fearful it would take 5 or 6 years to make this happen, which would have been ridiculous. For four years, I'm liking it. Is JD worth the same money as Matsui-san? I think so. Is this Bernie II? I don't think so, unless you're talking about throws in from Center.

I agree with many others here that Jeter represents a better leadoff hitter, but that's looking at things in a vacuum. Damon takes a lot of pitches, and gets on base, a lot. Jeter is terrific at hitting the ball to right and advancing the runner. This is why Damon will lead off. With Jeter behind him, the potential is incredible. With Jeter leading off, you don't have the same effective #2 hitter behind him. I like Damon-Jeter a lot more than Jeter-Damon.

We had two huge needs going into this off-season. We've filled both holes. Merry Christmas.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 10:37 AM
The Yankees have had one leadoff hitter in the past two years.

Oh and...


:link:

:D

Watch ESPN NEWS :)

gdn
12-21-05, 10:37 AM
Watch ESPN NEWS :)Dumba$$. I'm at work! :p

iWant27
12-21-05, 10:38 AM
Man, the negativity on this thread...cheer up, guys!

So he was the symbol of the worst defeat in Yankee history--get over it. Remember..."what does not kill you makes you stronger."

I figure 2 years out of him as CF, 1 year as RF (we sign someone like Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones in 08), and 1 year as DH.

Whatever we think of his fielding skills, the guy can hit, he's a lefty in Yankee Stadium, he's played 600+ AB in each of the last 8 years, he plays the game with intensity, he can handle the media and NY (in fact, he loves it), he has an amazing looking wife, and best of all...

We have totally screwed the Sawx.

I don't care if they trade for someone, it won't be Damon, and maybe they will somehow dump Manny in the process, ensuring their complete discombobulation in 06.

I'm dancing...


I want to dance but I am in the office .

effdamets
12-21-05, 10:38 AM
The reason Beltran gets brought up is because the Yankees didn't want to overpay him last year to solve the void in CF and now we overpay Damon. So it is relative.
I don't think the reason the Yankees didn't sign Beltran was becuase they didn't want to over pay him. I think it had to do with the fact that they needed pitching and that was a higher priority to them....

gdn
12-21-05, 10:38 AM
Yet everyone is ready to throw an unproven Michaels, Reed, and Patterson out there. Why? Because they're younger and don't cost as much. psst. They also don't produce much that's why they're available.Psst. We need defense more than offense.

PoughVirginiaYankee
12-21-05, 10:38 AM
The first 3 pages of this thread are really entertaining, it was the doubt and denial part, when the story first broke
hahaha you are so right - I especially like the closing and re-opening of the thread...and the manic search for more verifiable links... :D :eek:

chanman7483
12-21-05, 10:39 AM
Want a 'loose' clubhouse? Try not having an $200+M payroll and a line up of all stars, of which Mr. Johnny is the latest piece. Anything less than 100 wins, and a championship is an utter failure. Adding Hollywood Johnny just adds to the pressure. I HATE THIS DEAL. We'll get one great year from the guy, then just another rich old dude who can't hit anymore.

.

I'm fine with people not liking an all star filled line up, but why wouldn't you want that? People act like the Yanks totally and utterly suck because of it. How many times have the Yankees been in the world series or right there since the last time they won? Numerous. Bad breaks and bad luck and running into red hot teams are why the Yanks have fallen recently. It's not because of bad players.

So then if you don't like how the current configuration is, what is your suggestion? And anyone else who brings up something like this? Would you prefer to have had our homegrown talent playing out there right now? How does a lineup of Shane Spencer, Andy Fox, Ruben Rivera, and all those crappy "young" pitchers (Graman, Depaula, Choate, etc) we've trotted out there sound to you. How about Drew Hensen at 3rd right now instead of Arod and Andy Phillilps at first instead of Giambi? How about Crosby in RF instead of Sheff?

This was a good move.

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 10:39 AM
Yeah, I guess I have to root for him now. So welcome Johnny!! Please don't be Bernie II.

I hope he is Bernie II. That would be 4 championships, clutch hitting, and a very good glove. And I would even sign up for another Bernie between ages 32 and 35.

wileedog
12-21-05, 10:40 AM
psst. They also don't produce much that's why they're available.

psst. They leave us options and don't tie up large amounts of cash for 4 years in a declining player. That's why some thought it might be a better way to go.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 10:40 AM
WEEI is reporting that there's nothing in the agreement about Damon having to be clean shaven...also, the MLB Players Union will back Damon if he decides not to.

Maybe they'll do a reality show where they cut his hair and shave him, then auction off the hair...:)

Jasbro
12-21-05, 10:40 AM
I brought up Beltran, in order to provide some context about this deal.

Putting aside the distaste I have -- and will have for some time -- about a former Idiot patrolling CF for us, my point is that we did receive a fairly decent player who will unquestionably make us better, at a pricetag that is almost half of what it would have cost us last year for a player who is inarguably not worth twice the money Damon is.

gdn
12-21-05, 10:40 AM
I hope he is Bernie II. That would be 4 championships, clutch hitting, and a very good glove. And I would even sign up for another Bernie between ages 32 and 35.As long as he's not Bernie III - the dwindling twilight ;)

Sam18
12-21-05, 10:40 AM
Yet everyone is ready to throw an unproven Michaels, Reed, and Patterson out there. Why? Because they're younger and don't cost as much. psst. They also don't produce much that's why they're available.

Who wanted Patterson? Reed and Michaels are better than Damon defensively. Plus Michaels has shown he can get on base better than Damon. Oh and we wouldn't have to commit for years or 52 million dollars to Reed or Michaels. Damon is on the decline. We're paying for what he has done in the past and not what he will do. We're about to get Damon's worst years for 13 mil per year, I don't know why everyone's so happy about this.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-21-05, 10:41 AM
I feel like boston wanted us to do this all along. Pay much more money then they were willing. Make it seem that we are the big bad waller boogie man again. They can say that they tried and all, but they never wanted him. They knew signing damon was a dumb move.


I kind of agree that Boston didn't go out of their way to bring him back, but I don't think signing him is a dumb move. There were alot of other dumb moves out there, such as trading Wang or Cano for anyone, and especially guys like Jason Michaels. But I think there is some reality here going on that Boston is breaking up their team. They are stripping off parts and Damon was just another part that was going to go. The question is, what are they going to build back up in it's place. From what I can see, in 2006 at least, it's a 3rd place club.

gdn
12-21-05, 10:42 AM
I could live with 19+19+8+6 as his payments in the four years. That way, we can get rid of him after two years.

Sam18
12-21-05, 10:42 AM
I hope he is Bernie II. That would be 4 championships, clutch hitting, and a very good glove. And I would even sign up for another Bernie between ages 32 and 35.

You know what I mean when I say Bernie II.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 10:47 AM
You know what I mean when I say Bernie II.


Injuries to his shoulders, legs and back? Good thing we got a healthy centerfielder

jpao89
12-21-05, 10:48 AM
Who wanted Patterson? Reed and Michaels are better than Damon defensively. Plus Michaels has shown he can get on base better than Damon. Oh and we wouldn't have to commit for years or 52 million dollars to Reed or Michaels. Damon is on the decline. We're paying for what he has done in the past and not what he will do. We're about to get Damon's worst years for 13 mil per year, I don't know why everyone's so happy about this.

I think we will pay for two of Damon's decline years as I think he still has a couple of good years in him, but I tend to agree with your assessment. This move has George's "allstar at every position" fingerprints all over it. The sad part is that this probably means the Yankees will skimp on putting a decent bench together, something that can really help as the season drags on, especially with an older team.

I also think Damon is a liability in CF, especially Yankee Stadium. I would have preferred a better defensive CF, like Michaels. But alas, Micheals isn't a NAME, NAME, and Big Nutjob George has gotta to have his names.

Jace
12-21-05, 10:48 AM
I could live with 19+19+8+6 as his payments in the four years. That way, we can get rid of him after two years.

That would actually be awesome, but luxury-tax wise that adds like 2.5 million dollars right now and Damon/Boras would probably find some way to read it as a slap in the face.

drjeckyl
12-21-05, 10:49 AM
We're going to bench a $13M player for two seasons to play someone else? Not likely.

Although I will state for the record that I don't think Damon will be quite as bad as Bernie was at the end.

I don't think he will get completely benched... But, DH, play corner OF, whatever.

Rationally, I just don't see the downside of this deal. The team got much better for 06 and 07 without weakening another area. Plus, our competition just got weaker for 06 and possible longer because they lost a significant part of thier offense. Plus, have to trade talent to replace him. So, the cost is having an older Johnny Damon becoming more of a role player a couple of years down the road. I can live with that.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 10:49 AM
Dumba$$. I'm at work! :p

Yankees leadoff hitters GIDP 33 times in past 2 years
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3246

Damon has grounded into exactly double that in 11 years, and only 18 the past 3 years
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3323

Jace
12-21-05, 10:50 AM
The sad part is that this probably means the Yankees will skimp on putting a decent bench together, something that can really help as the season drags on, especially with an older team.

I disagree with this part, as we have 13 pitchers and we need to trade 2 and still have our marginal to some value minor leaguers (Melky, Henn). We'll get a couple of decent bench players.

Damon actually affects this positively because we didn't trade anyone valuable for a CF, so now they have to be traded for a bench player (we have too many pitchers and someone has to go).

Sam18
12-21-05, 10:51 AM
I think we will pay for two of Damon's decline years as I think he still has a couple of good years in him, but I tend to agree with your assessment. This move has George's "allstar at every position" fingerprints all over it. The sad part is that this probably means the Yankees will skimp on putting a decent bench together, something that can really help as the season drags on, especially with an older team.

I also think Damon is a liability in CF, especially Yankee Stadium. I would have preferred a better defensive CF, like Michaels. But alas, Micheals isn't a NAME, NAME, and Big Nutjob George has gotta to have his names.

Agreed with everything you said. Especially the last paragraph.

RobRiv
12-21-05, 10:52 AM
more "idiotic" observations:

Now that Damon has signed with the Yanks, Hell can host the Winter Olympics.

Something tells me Elton John's marriage to his longtime boyfriend is going to last at least ten times as long as NY's new love-affair with Johnny SuperCuts.

Since Johnny doesn't need it any more, can Demi Moore have her hair back?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 10:52 AM
I disagree with this part, as we have 13 pitchers and we need to trade 2 and still have our marginal to some value minor leaguers (Melky, Henn). We'll get a couple of decent bench players.

Damon actually affects this positively because we didn't trade anyone valuable for a CF, so now they have to be traded for a bench player (we have too many pitchers and someone has to go).

I have a feeling we will cut Aaron Small loose

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 10:52 AM
Yankees leadoff hitters GIDP 33 times in past 2 years
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3246

Damon has grounded into exactly double that in 11 years, and only 18 the past 3 years
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3323

It is nice to finally have a real leadoff hitter.... and centerfielder.

Jace
12-21-05, 10:54 AM
I have a feeling we will cut Aaron Small loose

If the Phillies value him/Sturtze/Proctor/all 3, we can trade them for Michaels to be RF and backup OF. If noone values him, then yeah.

He's used to the minors. Maybe he'd accept an assignment.

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 10:54 AM
I have a feeling we will cut Aaron Small loose

I really hope not.

ReggieBar
12-21-05, 10:54 AM
If we are to assume that Giambi will be the DH in 07 and 08 and that Matsui will be in Left til then, then it is obvious that Damon will be in CF for AT LEAST 3 seasons. We can then move Matsui to DH and Damon to Left for 09 and replace him with, HOPEFULLY, one of the youngsters.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 10:54 AM
Yanks got, arguably, the best lead off hitter in MLB. Having said that, his arm (which was weak when he got to Boston) has gotten noticably worse every year, and at $13million a year for 4 years, he isnt worth it. I'm disappointed to see him go, but this isn't devastating.

No, it is devastating. Jeremy Reed? Come on. Now you have to hope Luccino doesn't get rid of Manny to make a point, which would screw you even more. Maybe Lowell will step it up in Fenway...

gdn
12-21-05, 10:54 AM
Yankees leadoff hitters GIDP 33 times in past 2 years
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3246

Damon has grounded into exactly double that in 11 years, and only 18 the past 3 years
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3323Actually, it's 44 in the past three years for Jeter. All the more reason for Jeter to bat #1 and Damon #2.

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 10:54 AM
Since Johnny doesn't need it any more, can Demi Moore have her hair back?

:-rofl-: :-rofl-: :-rofl-:

Stone Cold
12-21-05, 10:54 AM
I don't like this. Call me silly - but the idea of a Boston Red Sox patrolling centerfield for The Yankees is akin to having Bin Laden join Homeland Security. I don't care how much he adds to the venture it's just not palatable. (And please don't lecture me on how awful it is to compare Damon to Bin Laden. It's the only analogy I could come up with on the spur of the moment and it's meant to show how much most Yankee fans - or at least this one - think of Damon as "the enemy".)

Secondly, it signals to me that all this talk about getting some sanity back into the Yankee "plan" and trying to get younger, cheaper, and smarter, lasted all of two months.

I guess we did not have any good prospects in our own minor league system. Melky Cabrera obviously played himself out of any future shot with this team and I guess no one else on the farm projects to be ready within the next year or two.

The fact that The Yanks even (reportedly) made an offer to Nomar and now have signed Damon is scary to me. Frankly, I don't know how I'll sit my rear end in Yankee Stadium and watch Johnny Damon run down a fly ball or clap for him when he comes up to the plate! Ugh!

Good business be damned! I think this stinks.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

Q "Bah Humbug" Bomb

Just b/c you preface it by saying "don't lecture me" doesn't mean it won't happen. It was a stupid thing to do. National security, the man responsible for the loss of 3000 American lives and the guy who you didn't like just b/c he played for Boston shouldn't ever be compared. It's a stupid analogy to make. Shame on you.

Panamaniac42
12-21-05, 10:54 AM
I have been wishing very bad things on Lupica this morning.

Maybe he's just as surprised as Lucchino & Werner were and doesn't know how to take it.

You can't bitch for weeks about how "The Yankees aren't making a splash this winter", ripping them for being conservative, and then they make an aggressive move and you trash them too.

Have it both ways you little whore, burn in hell...you stupid f*cking twit.

HipHipJorge
12-21-05, 10:55 AM
I didn't want to see Johnny Damon in centerfield, but he does feel a huge need. But I was also afraid that either or both Wang and Cano were going to be traded for a CFer....so given that if signing Johnny Damon means we get to keep Cano & Wang i'm all for it.

I also like him as the leadoff hitter. I think DJ is going to see a lot of great pitches this year.

wileedog
12-21-05, 10:55 AM
I don't think he will get completely benched... But, DH, play corner OF, whatever.

Again, Damon's sole value is as a CFer. That is the only thing which makes him close to worth his pricetag.

Paying $13M for a middle of the road LFer or DH is ridiculous.

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 10:56 AM
Actually, it's 44 in the past three years for Jeter. All the more reason for Jeter to bat #1 and Damon #2.

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 10:56 AM
Actually, it's 44 in the past three years for Jeter. All the more reason for Jeter to bat #1 and Damon #2.

Whatever you say Descartes

nebraska
12-21-05, 10:56 AM
Wow!!
We now have 5 guys that last year scored 575 runs. That 3.54 runs a game and we still have Cano, Giambi, Posada and whoever yet to add to that. Everybody is worried about the money.....Heck it's George's pocket ...who cares?

gk1272
12-21-05, 10:56 AM
So how long before Johnny Talkshow makes this official, showing off his new Yankee pinstripes on "Live with Regis and Kelly?" Uch.

Johnny Talkshow...that's good.

jimmykey2
12-21-05, 10:57 AM
I could live with 19+19+8+6 as his payments in the four years. That way, we can get rid of him after two years.


"Son, that's not the Yankee way" - G.Steinbrenner

When have you seen the Yankees frontload a deal in the past... 25 years?

gdn
12-21-05, 10:57 AM
Whatever you say DescartesWhat? You wouldn't agree? If Jeter gets on base before Damon, then he won't be able to GIDP. If it's the other way and Damon gets on base before Jeter, there's a higher probability that Jeter will hit into a DP. Makes sense to me.

drjeckyl
12-21-05, 10:57 AM
Again, Damon's sole value is as a CFer. That is the only thing which makes him close to worth his pricetag.

Paying $13M for a middle of the road LFer or DH is ridiculous.


No argument there!

Sam18
12-21-05, 10:58 AM
It is nice to finally have a real leadoff hitter.... and centerfielder.

We have the best leadoff hitter in baseball (Derek Jeter).


If the Phillies value him/Sturtze/Proctor/all 3, we can trade them for Michaels to be RF and backup OF. If noone values him, then yeah.


Getting Michaels would make me happy about getting Damon. I really, really hope Cash gets Michaels.

gdn
12-21-05, 10:58 AM
"Son, that's not the Yankee way" - G.Steinbrenner

When have you seen the Yankees frontload a deal in the past... 25 years?:dunno: I can dream, can't I? :p

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 10:58 AM
Wow!!
We now have 5 guys that last year scored 575 runs. That 3.54 runs a game and we still have Cano, Giambi, Posada and whoever yet to add to that. Everybody is worried about the money.....Heck it's George's pocket ...who cares?

Damon
Jeter
A-rod
Sheff
Giambi
Matsui
Cano
:scared:

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 10:59 AM
What? You wouldn't agree? If Jeter gets on base before Damon, then he won't be able to GIDP. If it's the other way and Damon gets on base before Jeter, there's a higher probability that Jeter will hit into a DP. Makes sense to me.

You only leadoff once a game. You don't want a GIDP machine to have many multiple at bats with runners on base. And his GIDP numbers as a 2 hitter are slightly lower than his leadoff numbers.

jimmykey2
12-21-05, 10:59 AM
I have been wishing very bad things on Lupica this morning.

Maybe he's just as surprised as Lucchino & Werner were and doesn't know how to take it.

You can't bitch for weeks about how "The Yankees aren't making a splash this winter", ripping them for being conservative, and then they make an aggressive move and you trash them too.

Have it both ways you little whore, burn in hell...you stupid f*cking twit.


100% true. When I saw the headline, I didn't even bother to read his article. Don't you love it when someone says the exact opposite thing all of 2 DAYS LATER?!?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:00 AM
We have the best leadoff hitter in baseball (Derek Jeter).



Getting Michaels would make me happy about getting Damon. I really, really hope Cash gets Michaels.

If we can't get Michaels, I just read that Eric Byrnes was non tendered. he would be a good upgrade over Bubba

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 11:00 AM
We have the best leadoff hitter in baseball (Derek Jeter).

Jeter's not a leadoff hitter.

gdn
12-21-05, 11:01 AM
You only leadoff once a game. You don't want a GIDP machine to have many multiple at bats with runners on base. And his GIDP numbers as a 2 hitter are slightly lower than his leadoff numbers.

I said it's one more reason to bat Jeter #1.

The stats have consistenly shown that Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Damon. Higher OBP, more P/PA and so on... this adds to it.

Why are people so insistent that Damon is a better leadoff hitter? There's nothing to prove that he is!!!

I'll be glad to be proven wrong, if someone can do it!

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:02 AM
Jeter's not a leadoff hitter.

Barry Bonds would make the best leadoff hitter in baseball cause he has a high OBP of course

Sam18
12-21-05, 11:02 AM
Jeter's not a leadoff hitter.

I'd love to hear the logic behind this.

38Special
12-21-05, 11:02 AM
Reed and Michaels are better than Damon defensively.
It's unfortunate that people keep saying this, because it really isnt true. Unless you're counting arm alot more than range

gdn
12-21-05, 11:02 AM
Jeter's not a leadoff hitter.What do you base that on?

Sam18
12-21-05, 11:02 AM
If we can't get Michaels, I just read that Eric Byrnes was non tendered. he would be a good upgrade over Bubba

Doesn't Eric Byrnes suck defensively?

Panamaniac42
12-21-05, 11:03 AM
Scott Miller, another jackass who deserves to be castrated.

http://sportsline.com/mlb/story/9109169


Word of warning to Damon: Ask Jason Giambi about the Samson thing he had going with his hair. Clip, clip, Jason went button-down in the land where George Steinbrenner issues edicts -- no long hair, no beards, no frat house living. And so much of both Giambi's game and personality disappeared with his locks.

No Scott, actually Giambi's game & personality "disappeared" due to the effects and withdrawal from steroid use. And after 32 dingers and an insane .440 OBP last year, I'd say his game is far from "disappeared" you worthless schmuck.

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 11:03 AM
What do you base that on?

I'm just saying that Jeter is better in the 2 spot.

Evil Empire
12-21-05, 11:03 AM
Doesn't Eric Byrnes suck defensively?

He's just a more expensive Bubba methinks. He can hit for shyte.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:04 AM
Doesn't Eric Byrnes suck defensively?

I'm pretty sure every player ever mentioned on this board sucks defensively. I've never seen a good one

aeromac76
12-21-05, 11:04 AM
Besides those 4 championships?

Exactly my point, people have been talking ad nauseum about Damon's arm being awful. We won 4 titles with a CFer who had an even worse arm. Back then, Bernie could run the ball down and hit, but could not throw and that was plenty to make him great and have him be a centerpiece of a dynasty, even with a noodle arm. So Damon can catch it, he is an offensive dynamo, but cannot throw. Sounds like Bernie in the glory years, his arm does not bother me...

Panamaniac42
12-21-05, 11:04 AM
Doesn't Eric Byrnes suck defensively?

I think he does, but the illusion of "hustle" that he gives off leads people to believe he's a superior defender.

Although I do appreciate his hustle and like seeing him climb walls for no reason :)

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 11:05 AM
I'm pretty sure every player ever mentioned on this board sucks defensively. I've never seen a good one

at least it's an upgrade from Bernie...

boo_427
12-21-05, 11:05 AM
I am fine with four years. I have always like Johnny Damon. From the Royals to A's, it was difficult in Boston, but he has always produced.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/damonjo01.shtml

We are getting a career .353 OBP and .784 OPS. I am no numbers guy, but those are pretty nice figures.

It fills a void, I don't have to get in shape and play CF anymore. I love how this signing almost flew completely under the radar. The fact that it was a Boston News station the broke it makes it even more outstanding.

Jace
12-21-05, 11:05 AM
Jeter's not a leadoff hitter.

Good analysis.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:05 AM
Exactly my point, people have been talking ad nauseum about Damon's arm being awful. We won 4 titles with a CFer who had an even worse arm. Back then, Bernie could run the ball down and hit, but could not throw and that was plenty to make him great and have him be a centerpiece of a dynasty, even with a noodle arm. So Damon can catch it, he is an offensive dynamo, but cannot throw. Sounds like Bernie in the glory years, his arm does not bother me...

Add to the fact Damon is a good baserunner, something Bernie was not during his career

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 11:05 AM
I think we will pay for two of Damon's decline years as I think he still has a couple of good years in him, but I tend to agree with your assessment. This move has George's "allstar at every position" fingerprints all over it. The sad part is that this probably means the Yankees will skimp on putting a decent bench together, something that can really help as the season drags on, especially with an older team.

I also think Damon is a liability in CF, especially Yankee Stadium. I would have preferred a better defensive CF, like Michaels. But alas, Micheals isn't a NAME, NAME, and Big Nutjob George has gotta to have his names.


Look...

What do the Yankees have? Money.
What do the Yankees lack? Young talent that they would want to part with.

We were not getting Micheals or Reed without giving someone up. Who knows how an Aaron Small, Chien-Ming Wang, Tanyon Sturtze, or Robinson Cano will perform next year? Odds are they will all be OK if not better.

Why get rid of Pavano or Wright before the season starts? Why not see how people are performing in 06, see what your needs are, then make a deal midseason?

The Yankees have the cash, Damon was paid the market rate, and he is a good fit at this point in time. This also takes out a key component of your fiercest rival.

This was Cashman's doing, not really George's, and I like it.

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 11:06 AM
I think he does, but the illusion of "hustle" that he gives off leads people to believe he's a superior defender.

Although I do appreciate his hustle and like seeing him climb walls for no reason :)

He makes crazy catches on balls that normal centerfielders wouldn't even have to run to catch.

Panamaniac42
12-21-05, 11:06 AM
Add to the fact Damon is a good baserunner, something Bernie was not during his career

When Bernie still had his speed it was mind boggling how bad of a baserunner he was.

Sam18
12-21-05, 11:06 AM
It's unfortunate that people keep saying this, because it really isnt true. Unless you're counting arm alot more than range

I'm just going by what ILW posted. Yeah he was kinda crazy but he didn't lie.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:07 AM
When Bernie still had his speed it was mind boggling how bad of a baserunner he was.

He could easily have 20 stolen bases a year with that speed. He was much more quick than Paul O'Neill, and I remember Paulie puttin out 17 steals a year.

mhmajp
12-21-05, 11:07 AM
Will Damon have enough strength to play once he gets his long hair cut off? :eek:

With all that weight off of his shoulders, he should have a new spring in his step and shave a tenth of a second or so of his time to 1B! ;)

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 11:07 AM
Is damon a good base stealer?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:07 AM
I'm just going by what ILW posted. Yeah he was kinda crazy but he didn't lie.

So you believe JD did roids??

wwjdd
12-21-05, 11:08 AM
Is damon a good base stealer?

Nothing special.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:08 AM
Is damon a good base stealer?

He is a career 79% basestealer

Sam18
12-21-05, 11:09 AM
So you believe JD did roids??

I suspect he did.

SheffRocks11
12-21-05, 11:09 AM
He is a career 79% basestealer

not bad...

effdamets
12-21-05, 11:09 AM
100% true. When I saw the headline, I didn't even bother to read his article. Don't you love it when someone says the exact opposite thing all of 2 DAYS LATER?!?
Lupica is beyond moronic... I wonder when people are finally going to see through him? Can't everyone tell that he knows nothing about sports and he just rights controversial articles to sell the rag paper that he writes for?


And the more Yankee controversy he whips up, the more papers get sold.

What a d*ck!

boo_427
12-21-05, 11:10 AM
Nothing special.

He has stolen 16 or more bases 10/11 years. Yeah... that is nothing special.

Stone Cold
12-21-05, 11:11 AM
Look...

What do the Yankees have? Money.
What do the Yankees lack? Young talent that they would want to part with.

We were not getting Micheals or Reed without giving someone up. Who knows how an Aaron Small, Chien-Ming Wang, Tanyon Sturtze, or Robinson Cano will perform next year? Odds are they will all be OK if not better.

Why get rid of Pavano or Wright before the season starts? Why not see how people are performing in 06, see what your needs are, then make a deal midseason?

The Yankees have the cash, Damon was paid the market rate, and he is a good fit at this point in time. This also takes out a key component of your fiercest rival.

This was Cashman's doing, not really George's, and I like it.

Well said. Add in that that Yankees immediately got better for '06 and '07 while the Sox got alot weaker needing both a CF and a SS and it's very hard not to like this deal. ;)

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:11 AM
He has stolen 16 or more bases 10/11 years. Yeah... that is nothing special.

Darn, shoulda got Juan Pierre

boo_427
12-21-05, 11:11 AM
He is a career 79% basestealer

281/356 to be exact.

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 11:11 AM
I suspect he did.

Then he'll fit right in with Giambi and Sheffield.

Seriously though, it is completely unfair to speculate on a player doing roids. And considering Damon's durability thus far, how can we even speculate? Because he has a beard??

RobRiv
12-21-05, 11:11 AM
Based on the substantially higher cost of living in NY -v- Boston, isn't Johnny actually coming here for less than the Red Sox offer? or about the same money?

Panamaniac42
12-21-05, 11:12 AM
He has stolen 16 or more bases 10/11 years. Yeah... that is nothing special.

He should be good for 25+ here.

I thought they don't like to run much in Boston though in 02 & 03 he reached 30...

He did steal 18 out of 19 last year.

wwjdd
12-21-05, 11:12 AM
He has stolen 16 or more bases 10/11 years. Yeah... that is nothing special.

Whatever. I've watched him day in or day out for his entire tenure with the Sox and if I listed his positive attributes, basestealing would have been low on the list. Of course, the Sox don't steal much generally.

Pardon me for replying.

wileedog
12-21-05, 11:12 AM
Exactly my point, people have been talking ad nauseum about Damon's arm being awful. We won 4 titles with a CFer who had an even worse arm. Back then, Bernie could run the ball down and hit, but could not throw and that was plenty to make him great and have him be a centerpiece of a dynasty, even with a noodle arm. So Damon can catch it, he is an offensive dynamo, but cannot throw. Sounds like Bernie in the glory years, his arm does not bother me...

Bernie in those years was a much, MUCH better hitter than Damon is now. Its not even close.

boo_427
12-21-05, 11:12 AM
Darn, shoulda got Juan Pierre

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

In the words of Clive...

"One Pierre is Juan too many."

38Special
12-21-05, 11:12 AM
Bernie in those years was a much, MUCH better hitter than Damon is now. Its not even close.
The lineup around Bernie back then was nothing like it is now

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:13 AM
Then he'll fit right in with Giambi and Sheffield.

Seriously though, it is completely unfair to speculate on a player doing roids. And considering Damon's durability thus far, how can we even speculate? Because he has a beard??


That was the argument a former forumer used. Thats why he is a former forumer

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:14 AM
Whatever. I've watched him day in or day out for his entire tenure with the Sox and if I listed his positive attributes, basestealing would have been low on the list. Of course, the Sox don't steal much generally.

Pardon me for replying.

I watch every sox game as well. Its a completely differerent philosophy from the Yankees. Jeter and A-Rod both steal when they feel it is necessary. It seems like Damon wasn't allowed to run much of the time

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 11:14 AM
That was the argument a former forumer used. Thats why he is a former forumer

That's what I was referring to. Just silly, especially considering he didn't even grow the beard until '04, and shaved it last season. And I don't recall Caminiti, Canseco, McGwire, or Giambi walking around with beards.

Sam18
12-21-05, 11:15 AM
Then he'll fit right in with Giambi and Sheffield.

Seriously though, it is completely unfair to speculate on a player doing roids. And considering Damon's durability thus far, how can we even speculate? Because he has a beard??

I really don't care if Damon did roids or not. A sh*t load of MLB players did roids and I don't think it gave them an unfair advantage if everyone was doing it. Rhodey asked me if I thought Damon did it or not and I answered.

boo_427
12-21-05, 11:15 AM
Whatever. I've watched him day in or day out for his entire tenure with the Sox and if I listed his positive attributes, basestealing would have been low on the list. Of course, the Sox don't steal much generally.

Pardon me for replying.

Hey, don't be pissed at me cause your stuck with your user name.

I can't help he crossed over to the Dark Side.

18/19 in SB's for 2005 or 95% really is nothing spectacular. :uhh:

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:16 AM
Rhodey asked me if I thought Damon did it or not and I answered.

I asked because ILW was baiting and accusing players of steroid usage, and you state he never lied. Oh well, moot subject

38Special
12-21-05, 11:17 AM
ILW does that alot

gdn
12-21-05, 11:18 AM
I'm just saying that Jeter is better in the 2 spot.Ok, I'm gonna help us both out here.

Are you saying:
1. Jeter is a better #2 hitter than he (Jeter) is a #1 hitter

or

2. Jeter is a better #2 hitter than Damon is as a #2 hitter


or

3. Damon is a better #1 hitter than Jeter and therefore Jeter should bat #2


Which is it?

gdn
12-21-05, 11:18 AM
I asked because ILW was baiting and accusing players of steroid usage, and you state he never lied. Oh well, moot subjectI think what Sam meant was that ILW knew his stats pretty well.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:19 AM
I think what Sam meant was that ILW knew his stats pretty well.

Just didn't know common courteosy or how not to be a jackass

kino4
12-21-05, 11:19 AM
It was something to see, on ESPN, the list of the Yankee lineup with their yearly salary next to their names (13M, 18M etc.). When they got to Cano's name the salary had a "K" and one of the announcers asked what does the K mean? The other said I think it stands for strike out. :D

Jasbro
12-21-05, 11:20 AM
Bottom line: The Yankees are much better than they were yesterday, and the Red Sox are much weaker than they were yesterday.

Hopefully, I will lose the bad taste in my mouth after watching a month or so of this lineup tear up the AL:

Damon CF
Jeter SS
Giambi DH/1B
ARod 3B
Matsui LF
Sheffield RF
Cano 2B
Posada C
Someone 1B/DH

Only chose this config because of the devastating L/R mix THROUGHOUT...sick, sick lineup....

Just as devastating:

Jeter SS
Damon CF
ARod SS
Giambi DH/1B
Sheffield RF
Matsui LF
Posada C
Cano 2B
Someone 1B/DH

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:20 AM
It was something to see, on ESPN, the list of the Yankee lineup with their yearly salary next to their names (13M, 18M etc.). When they got to Cano's name the salary had a "K" and one of the announcers asked what does the K mean? The other said I think it stands for strike out. :D

On ESPN news, they joked that Cano should never have to pick up the dinner tab

gdn
12-21-05, 11:21 AM
Just didn't know common courteosy or how not to be a jackassCondescending, I believe is the word... :D Oh well, he's gone now.

wileedog
12-21-05, 11:21 AM
The lineup around Bernie back then was nothing like it is now

'96 team scored 871 runs
'97 team scored 891
'98 team scored 965
'99 team scored 900
'00 team scored 871

The '05 squad scored 886 runs.

I would say it was pretty similar, if not inferior in some years.

Panamaniac42
12-21-05, 11:23 AM
If one is going to speculate about Damon & roids, who is to say Brian Giles didn't do them? (if I wanted to be irresponsible and play the guessing game Giles would pop into my mind long before Damon).

I don't know if Damon did or not, but he hasn't been caught under the new policy like so many of these other jerks.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:24 AM
'96 team scored 871 runs
'97 team scored 891
'98 team scored 965
'99 team scored 900.

The '05 squad scored 886 runs.

Its still very different. Our lineup from 96-00 wasn't based solely around the home run. the 2004-05 team lives and dies by the homerun

yankswn23
12-21-05, 11:24 AM
Its better than womack leading off and playing center.

No I actually Like this for 4 years, he fills this year in center, and then moves to left in the future with Matsui probably moving to right when Sheffs done. I also think as well as Jeter is as a leadoff he will be more comfortable in his #2 spot, and AROD prob comes up alot with Jeter on 1st and Damon on 3rd, Im beginning to drool at the possibilities.

gdn
12-21-05, 11:25 AM
Let's please steer away from the steroid discussion. I don't want to see another poster RO'd.

Jace
12-21-05, 11:25 AM
'96 team scored 871 runs
'97 team scored 891
'98 team scored 965
'99 team scored 900
'00 team scored 871

The '05 squad scored 886 runs.

I would say it was pretty similar.

With the very large amount that Bernie declined, I would say the 05 offense other than Bernie had to be a good amount better than the 96,97,99,and 00 offenses without Bernie.

gdn
12-21-05, 11:25 AM
Ok, I'm gonna help us both out here.

Are you saying:
1. Jeter is a better #2 hitter than he (Jeter) is a #1 hitter

or

2. Jeter is a better #2 hitter than Damon is as a #2 hitter


or

3. Damon is a better #1 hitter than Jeter and therefore Jeter should bat #2


Which is it?Bump.

yankswn23
12-21-05, 11:27 AM
Ok, I'm gonna help us both out here.

Are you saying:
1. Jeter is a better #2 hitter than he (Jeter) is a #1 hitter

or

2. Jeter is a better #2 hitter than Damon is as a #2 hitter


or

3. Damon is a better #1 hitter than Jeter and therefore Jeter should bat #2


Which is it?
Jeter is more comfortable in the number 2 spot and Johnny is more comfortable in the leadoff spot so lets leave it like that.

gdn
12-21-05, 11:28 AM
Jeter is more comfortable in the number 2 spot and Johnny is more comfortable in the leadoff spot so lets leave it like that.You say that based on what? I've heard this "Jeter is more comfortable blah blah", but there's no statistical evidence to back it up. If you know him personally and he's said that to you, then please share that with us. Otherwise, tell me how and why you think that way.

RI Dawg
12-21-05, 11:29 AM
I honestly am still torn with this deal myself....Heres my two cents

Pros:
1) We have a CF who we know handles pressure
2) He has range
3) He is fast
4) Good table setter who can hit and steal, takes walks, etc -- no matter if you put him batting first or second.
5) We got him away from Boston, leaving that team in shambles with a deer in headlights look.

Cons:
1) Weak arm
2) Will be older when contract runs out
3) May be a Bernie in CF part 2, who knows
4) He was injured last year, could be like that again...
5) Paid to much for him

I dont know what to think, I like it but I don't -- I guess we as fans gotta suck it up, it happened and now we gotta live with it....

Lets not pass judgement untill October.....if Damon helps us win #27, I'm sure everyone will shut up and be happy he's on our team....

kino4
12-21-05, 11:30 AM
On ESPN news, they joked that Cano should never have to pick up the dinner tab

:lol:

Sam18
12-21-05, 11:30 AM
Jeter is more comfortable in the number 2 spot and Johnny is more comfortable in the leadoff spot so lets leave it like that.

Jeter did great as the leadoff hitter last year. How did he seem uncomfortable to you?

SoxIn4
12-21-05, 11:31 AM
No, it is devastating. Jeremy Reed? Come on. Now you have to hope Luccino doesn't get rid of Manny to make a point, which would screw you even more. Maybe Lowell will step it up in Fenway...

Losing Manny or Ortiz would be devastating. Yanks overpaid, AGAIN. Personally, I don't think the RS wanted him back for 4 years--they see him play on a daily basis and are gambling that he's at his peak offensively and will be for the next couple of years, but not in 3 or 4. I tend to agree. Defensively, the NY press and fans will go insane watching teams run on him all season long--he has trouble getting the ball into 2nd base. Again, I'm bummed to see him go, but glad someone else gave him $52mm for years.

gdn
12-21-05, 11:31 AM
Jeter did great as the leadoff hitter last year. How did he seem uncomfortable to you?No, sorry. We have to leave it at that.

wileedog
12-21-05, 11:32 AM
With the very large amount that Bernie declined, I would say the 05 offense other than Bernie had to be a good amount better than the 96,97,99,and 00 offenses without Bernie.

One player isn't going to have that much of an impact. And the 96-00 lineups had the occasional scrub like Chad Curtis get significant ABs too, which would cancel out Bernies bad production in the 05 team.

Point is Bernie with his weak arm was more than made up for by the explosive offense he brought to the team.

Damon's arm is not compensated nearly as well, whatever the rest of the lineup looks like, so the comparision is not valid.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:33 AM
In his career, Jeter is a .331 Hitter with a .393 OBP out of the 3 spot. I think we should bat him third

gdn
12-21-05, 11:35 AM
In his career, Jeter is a .331 Hitter with a .393 OBP out of the 3 spot. I think we should bat him thirdI know you're being facetious, BUT:

Small sample size compared to his whole career.
We have other hitters who are more of a HR/RBI threat than Jeter.


I know you're kidding, but still, had to :p

BW51
12-21-05, 11:36 AM
Jeter is more comfortable in the number 2 spot and Johnny is more comfortable in the leadoff spot so lets leave it like that.

i don't know about that at all....

and in fact, Jeter could probably hit anywhere in the lineup on a given team. If he hit for more power, which means his avg would go down (and i believe this is a choice of a hitter), he could even bat cleanup on some teams


the thing i do like about jeter in the two spot is if someone is getting on base in front of him, as a good lead off hitter is more likely to do than a poor no. 9 hitter, Jeter can do a number of things because of how well he handles the bat

Sam18
12-21-05, 11:36 AM
In his career, Jeter is a .331 Hitter with a .393 OBP out of the 3 spot. I think we should bat him third

We have better #3 hitters on the team than Jeter. We don't have a better #1 hitter on the team than Jeter. Jeter should leadoff.

Panamaniac42
12-21-05, 11:37 AM
lol at the rationalization of Sox fans:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2005/12/reaction_roundu_2.html


Johnny took the money and that's OK with me. I have to say, I don't think JD was ever a star player. He was a good leadoff hitter, but a very mediocre center fielder. He had a strong following of teenage girls and teenage boys. Talk to any serious, adult Sox fan and they will tell you, Johnny Damon was OK, that's it, just OK.

...

Personally, I'll miss Doug Mirabelli more, at least he was a good person with class. Winning is great, but obviously it's not everything, if it was, the Sox would not be selling out every game. I'm looking forward to spring to see my TEAM play, win or lose, I'll be a Sox fan next year, and the next year and the next year. So goodbye Johnny, Tek, Wake, Trot and Ortiz, I truly look forward to seeing you in April!
-- Saber

gdn
12-21-05, 11:37 AM
i don't know about that at all....

and in fact, Jeter could probably hit anywhere in the lineup on a given team. If he hit for more power, which means his avg would go down (and i believe this is a choice of a hitter), he could even bat cleanup on some teams


the thing i do like about jeter in the two spot is if someone is getting on base in front of him, as a good lead off hitter is more likely to do than a poor no. 9 hitter, Jeter can do a number of things because of how well he handles the batIncluding GIDP 2.5 times more than Damon.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:38 AM
I know you're being facetious, BUT:

Small sample size compared to his whole career.
We have other hitters who are more of a HR/RBI threat than Jeter.


I know you're kidding, but still, had to :p

Jeters HR/RBI ratio is better out of the 2 hole, even with the 2,000 more AB's

Jace
12-21-05, 11:38 AM
One player isn't going to have that much of an impact. And the 96-00 lineups had the occasional scrub like Chad Curtis get significant ABs too, which would cancel out Bernies bad production in the 05 team.

Point is Bernie with his weak arm was more than made up for by the explosive offense he brought to the team.

Damon's arm is not compensated nearly as well, whatever the rest of the lineup looks like, so the comparision is not valid.

Bernie had like 75 VORPs those seasons. That value is in runs. 75 runs above replacement level. Last year he was probably like 5 VORP.

70 runs man. That is impact.

edit: he had a VORP of 7.3 last year. 67.7 runs man.

RobRiv
12-21-05, 11:38 AM
Based on the substantially higher cost of living in NY -v- Boston, isn't Johnny actually coming here for less than the Red Sox offer? or about the same money?

To answer my own question: Yes, Johnny is taking a pay cut to come to the Yanks!

According to a salary calculator I found online, based on cost of living, $40 million dollars (Red Sox offer) in Boston is roughly $61 million in NY.

I don't want Johnny even with the $9 million dollar discount.

TinoBambino
12-21-05, 11:39 AM
I like how people thought a center fielder was going to drop out of the sky.

I know right. As much as it sucks to have him on the team, being that he was public enemy #1 for so many years, we really did kill two birds with one stone, buy getting a CR'er with range, and the best leadoff hitter available.

Was everyone really convinced that Bubba was going to work out? He would have been back to Columbus by the end of May

gdn
12-21-05, 11:39 AM
Jeters HR/RBI ratio is better out of the 2 hole, even with the 2,000 more AB'sDo you have a link to career splits? I can't seem to find a site with career splits with batting order and such.

drjeckyl
12-21-05, 11:39 AM
Bottom line: The Yankees are much better than they were yesterday, and the Red Sox are much weaker than they were yesterday.

Hopefully, I will lose the bad taste in my mouth after watching a month or so of this lineup tear up the AL:


Agreed. And, I think the Yankee "clean" look for Damon will go along to disassociating him from his image and refreshen your taste.

Sam18
12-21-05, 11:40 AM
lol at the rationalization of Sox fans:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2005/12/reaction_roundu_2.html

I agree with the first paragraph but judging from his second paragraph the dude is a moron.

Jasbro
12-21-05, 11:41 AM
We have better #3 hitters on the team than Jeter. We don't have a better #1 hitter on the team than Jeter. Jeter should leadoff.

I look at it a bit differently. Jeter is the better leadoff hitter, but he is also the better #2 hitter. The drop off at leadoff from Jeter to Damon is much smaller than the dropoff at #2 from Jeter to anyone else on the team. The 1/2 combo of Damon/Jeter will be devastating.

I think there is no wrong move here, but the team overall is probably marginally better with Damon/Jeter vs. Jeter/Damon.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:42 AM
Do you have a link to career splits? I can't seem to find a site with career splits with batting order and such.

The hr ratio is equal. What scares me is Jeter has been stealing bases at a 60% clip as a leadoff man, and he K's more out of the leadoff spot

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5406/career_by_all_batting_splits.html

Yanks4eva1
12-21-05, 11:43 AM
Jeter is more comfortable in the number 2 spot and Johnny is more comfortable in the leadoff spot so lets leave it like that.

Exactly. I like Jetes in the 2 hole. Always have, always will. Welcome to Johnny Damon. Just don't pull that "we're idiots' or 'cowboy up' crap here. Just play solid leadoff and CF. (Jetes and Cano work out your throwing arm more this off season - you're gonna have lots of assists with Damon's weak arm). Otherwise, it's all good.

Dee

Sam18
12-21-05, 11:45 AM
I look at it a bit differently. Jeter is the better leadoff hitter, but he is also the better #2 hitter. The drop off at leadoff from Jeter to Damon is much smaller than the dropoff at #2 from Jeter to anyone else on the team. The 1/2 combo of Damon/Jeter will be devastating.

I think there is no wrong move here, but the team overall is probably marginally better with Damon/Jeter vs. Jeter/Damon.

Don't you think a leadoff hitter is more important than a #2 hitter? Plus DJ hits better when he's leading off and I want him hitting his best.

kino4
12-21-05, 11:45 AM
Losing Manny or Ortiz would be devastating. Yanks overpaid, AGAIN. Personally, I don't think the RS wanted him back for 4 years--they see him play on a daily basis and are gambling that he's at his peak offensively and will be for the next couple of years, but not in 3 or 4. I tend to agree. Defensively, the NY press and fans will go insane watching teams run on him all season long--he has trouble getting the ball into 2nd base. Again, I'm bummed to see him go, but glad someone else gave him $52mm for years.

I agree that if you lost Manny or Big Papi it would devestate your team. However, think of it as when you lost Pedro. Did you ever replace him with someone compatible? Well, see if there is someone out there now (without trading and losing a player) that can do what Johnny D-lite brings to a team. :eek:

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 11:46 AM
Losing Manny or Ortiz would be devastating. Yanks overpaid, AGAIN. Personally, I don't think the RS wanted him back for 4 years--they see him play on a daily basis and are gambling that he's at his peak offensively and will be for the next couple of years, but not in 3 or 4. I tend to agree. Defensively, the NY press and fans will go insane watching teams run on him all season long--he has trouble getting the ball into 2nd base. Again, I'm bummed to see him go, but glad someone else gave him $52mm for years.

Sox didn't want him back for 4 years? If they didn't offer him $40 million for 4 years I might believe that. So the Yanks will pay $3 million per year more. Not a huge difference, but keep telling yourself the Sox were fiscally responsible...while they look for a taker on Manny's $20 million per year contract.

gdn
12-21-05, 11:46 AM
The hr ratio is equal. What scares me is Jeter has been stealing bases at a 60% clip as a leadoff man, and he K's more out of the leadoff spot

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5406/career_by_all_batting_splits.htmlThanks. The ratios are pretty equal. The SB % is actually 68. Not great, but better than 60. His avg, OBP, SLG and OPS are all higher in the #1 spot.

Here's what I'm saying. If the argument is Jeter should be #2 because Damon's a crappy #2 - fine, I just don't think the Damon is better than Jeter as a leadoff hitter is true.

BJG
12-21-05, 11:46 AM
I look at it a bit differently. Jeter is the better leadoff hitter, but he is also the better #2 hitter. The drop off at leadoff from Jeter to Damon is much smaller than the dropoff at #2 from Jeter to anyone else on the team. The 1/2 combo of Damon/Jeter will be devastating.

I think there is no wrong move here, but the team overall is probably marginally better with Damon/Jeter vs. Jeter/Damon.

The team is better with Jeter/AROD with Damon batting lower, actually, if you want to use that argument.

BW51
12-21-05, 11:47 AM
I'll admit why i like Jeter in the 2 spot....

come on, Number 2 batting 2nd...gotta love it, haha

M&M61
12-21-05, 11:48 AM
If Damon leads off and Jeter 2nd we will see a lot of 1st to thirds with Damon on base as Jeter goes to the oposite field a lot. With damon's speed a double will score him from first a lot of the time.

ShaneTravis
12-21-05, 11:48 AM
I don't want Johnny even with the $9 million dollar discount.

I understand some of the criticism of Damon. But reserve judgement untill you see this lineup----1-8 is there better?

The moves still may come. You never know, there could be a Right Fielder who will split time with Sheff out there. Thus limiting Bernie to pinch hit duties. If that is the case you will be looking at the best lineup in baseball.

ReggieBar
12-21-05, 11:49 AM
Thanks. The ratios are pretty equal. The SB % is actually 68. Not great, but better than 60. His avg, OBP, SLG and OPS are all higher in the #1 spot.

.862 OPS leadoff to .851 OPS batting second is pretty even.

gdn
12-21-05, 11:50 AM
If Damon leads off and Jeter 2nd we will see a lot of 1st to thirds with Damon on base as Jeter goes to the oposite field a lot. With damon's speed a double will score him from first a lot of the time.We will also see our fair share of "It was one on and no one out and now there's no one on with two outs".

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:51 AM
Thanks. The ratios are pretty equal. The SB % is actually 68. Not great, but better than 60. His avg, OBP, SLG and OPS are all higher in the #1 spot.

Here's what I'm saying. If the argument is Jeter should be #2 because Damon's a crappy #2 - fine, I just don't think the Damon is better than Jeter as a leadoff hitter is true.

1) Jeter has higher Ba's and OBP's in much less AB's
2) Damon is worse as a 2 hitter (and we've seen Jeter have great success as a 2 hitter). Damons power numbers drop way down as a 2 hitter and his K's go way up. In limited at bats

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5484/career_by_all_batting_splits.html

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 11:51 AM
Losing Manny or Ortiz would be devastating. Yanks overpaid, AGAIN. Personally, I don't think the RS wanted him back for 4 years--they see him play on a daily basis and are gambling that he's at his peak offensively and will be for the next couple of years, but not in 3 or 4. I tend to agree. Defensively, the NY press and fans will go insane watching teams run on him all season long--he has trouble getting the ball into 2nd base. Again, I'm bummed to see him go, but glad someone else gave him $52mm for years.

My point here is that this makes it even more likely that Luccino will try to dump Manny in a package which includes a CF. I am not sure Reed for Clement or Arroyo makes you better. As you said, losing Manny would be devastating.

With Henry in the picture, with the amount of off the field $$$ that Damon has generated for the Sawx, I find it really surprising that they didn't offer something like 4/48 with a no trade clause--he probably would have stayed for that, and they did offer 4/40 at the winter meetings.

An extra $2 million per year times 4 is not that much on a team with a $130 million payroll. This sounds like the Theo debacle, where the Sawx FO overestimated their pull and goodwill with someone...

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 11:52 AM
We will also see our fair share of "It was one on and no one out and now there's no one on with two outs".

I think they would hit and run a lot with Jeter and Damon. Jeter is a smart hitter who can take the ball the opposite way through the hole.

Jasbro
12-21-05, 11:52 AM
Don't you think a leadoff hitter is more important than a #2 hitter? Plus DJ hits better when he's leading off and I want him hitting his best.

I think that when you have the rare 1/2 punch the Yankees have right now, you cannot look at the leadoff slot in a vacuum. I would rather look at 1/2 as an distinct entity versus isolating each lineup slot. Looking at it this way, my initial sense is that Damon/Jeter is probably more productive overall than Jeter/Damon.

Also, I think that the lefty/righty match-ups on game day will go a long way in determining which one leads off on a given day...

MisterNovember
12-21-05, 11:52 AM
ILW does that alot

Correction....DID that a lot.

ReggieBar
12-21-05, 11:52 AM
I think they would hit and run a lot with Jeter and Damon. Jeter is a smart hitter who can take the ball the opposite way through the hole.


Joe Torre will hit Damon 1 and Jeter 2 until it stops working. Which it likey won't.

ReggieBar
12-21-05, 11:53 AM
Correction....DID that a lot.


I am outta the loop here. Sorry if it has been explained, but what happened to ILW?

gdn
12-21-05, 11:54 AM
1) Jeter has higher Ba's and OBP's in much less AB's
2) Damon is worse as a 2 hitter (and we've seen Jeter have great success as a 2 hitter). Damons power numbers drop way down as a 2 hitter and his K's go way up. In limited at bats

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5484/career_by_all_batting_splits.htmlThat's the argument that I have absolutely no problem with.

PS: SI needs to fix that site. It's so freakin slow and clunky and doesn't seem to be built for Firefox use.

keyserhh
12-21-05, 11:54 AM
Sox didn't want him back for 4 years? If they didn't offer him $40 million for 4 years I might believe that. So the Yanks will pay $3 million per year more. Not a huge difference, but keep telling yourself the Sox were fiscally responsible...while they look for a taker on Manny's $20 million per year contract.

damon's 2004 vorp: 49. 4 years remaining, 52 million
manny's 2004 vorp: 70. 3 years remaining, 52 million

manny's starting to look pretty fiscally responsible.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:54 AM
BTW, our very own John (ring403) calculated in another thread that even with the Damon signing, the Yankees shaved $20mil off the payroll.

chanman7483
12-21-05, 11:55 AM
BTW, our very own John (ring403) calculated in another thread that even with the Damon signing, the Yankees shaved $20mil off the payroll.

How's that? I know of Bernie and Brown being slashed off the payroll, but with the increase in yearly salary of our already signed players, where'd the $-20 mil come from?

BJG
12-21-05, 11:55 AM
If Damon leads off and Jeter 2nd we will see a lot of 1st to thirds with Damon on base as Jeter goes to the oposite field a lot. With damon's speed a double will score him from first a lot of the time.

Course, Jeter doesn't hit many doubles. This leads to an interesting queston. Will Jeter's total SH come within 10 of his total doubles? I'd make that bet.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:56 AM
That's the argument that I have absolutely no problem with.

PS: SI needs to fix that site. It's so freakin slow and clunky and doesn't seem to be built for Firefox use.

I just think a Good leadoff/great 2 hitter is better than a Great Leadoff/mediocre 2 hitter. It balances the lineup out, and from the numbers it looks as if Johnny is more comfortable as a leadoff

BJG
12-21-05, 11:57 AM
damon's 2004 vorp: 49. 4 years remaining, 52 million
manny's 2004 vorp: 70. 3 years remaining, 52 million

manny's starting to look pretty fiscally responsible.

subtract Manny's defense.

gdn
12-21-05, 11:57 AM
I just think a Good leadoff/great 2 hitter is better than a Great Leadoff/mediocre 2 hitter. It balances the lineup out, and from the numbers it looks as if Johnny is more comfortable as a leadoffOnly 318ABs, though, and his numbers don't drop off that precipitously. The K rate does go up...

Whatever, I don't care anymore... :o

MisterNovember
12-21-05, 11:58 AM
I am outta the loop here. Sorry if it has been explained, but what happened to ILW?

Last night in this thread, he accused Damon of doing steroids. When myself and some others informed him that it might not be in his best interest to make such allegations, he asked if we were the "comment police" and continued to carry on. Anyway, he got the boot. No big loss.

BronxBombers2005
12-21-05, 11:58 AM
Wow, all I can say is......good luck to the pitcher that faces us

hobokenfish
12-21-05, 11:58 AM
damon's 2004 vorp: 49. 4 years remaining, 52 million
manny's 2004 vorp: 70. 3 years remaining, 52 million

manny's starting to look pretty fiscally responsible.

So responsible that they couldn't afford to keep Pedro, Damon, etc. I'll be the first to admit that Manny, of any player with a huge contract, is worth the money. But to say the Sox didn't want Damon for 4 years is disingenuous, given they offered him 40 million bucks. And really, is $3 million more per year that much of a difference to say that the Yankees were stupid to sign him and the Sox were smart to pass?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 11:59 AM
How's that? I know of Bernie and Brown being slashed off the payroll, but with the increase in yearly salary of our already signed players, where'd the $-20 mil come from?

I'm going to quote Mark19 who also did a good job

We added $30mil in signings from Damon, Bernie, Dotel, Villone, Myers, Farnsworth etc

Between Bernie, Brown, Karsay, Quantrill, Stanton, Sierra, Womack and Gordon, Tino and F-Rod, we lost $47 million in payroll.

So thats roughly $17 mil lost, and I believe Texas is paying even more of A-Rod's salary this year than they did last year. We roughly lose $30 mil off the books next year as well

38Special
12-21-05, 11:59 AM
subtract Manny's defense.
big time subtraction

Mr. Mxylsplk
12-21-05, 11:59 AM
.862 OPS leadoff to .851 OPS batting second is pretty even.
While that's true, that's career. His more recent stats show a pretty decent difference, and 2004, the year he split his time most evenly between leadoff and batting second, it was .863 leadoff v .795 batting second. 2003 and 2001 he had only 80 - 100 at bats at leadoff, so it's not a huge sample, but the difference was similar then as well. Personally I think Damon will do pretty well, and with a good leadoff man in front of him Jeter will do well also. But I think there's a legitimate cost to moving Jeter out of leadoff.

ieddyi
12-21-05, 11:59 AM
From www.waswatching.com:

Cashman Can Thank L.A. & Lucchino For Damon

Brian Cashman played poker on this Free Agent pick-up - and won.

The minute that Kenny Lofton signed with the Dodgers, that closed the Damon market to two teams - the Yankees and the Red Sox.

Knowing this, Cashman told Damon's agent, Scott Boras, we're going to trade for a CF now, unless Damon wants to sign now, for much less than the seven years that you're looking for (as reported).

Boras knew the Red Sox offer - 4 years for $40-42 million. So, at this point, he had to tell his client "We're never going to get 7 years. We're only going to get four - in New York or Boston. And, if the Yankees trade for a CF, then Boston has us by the short ones. We need to get the most money that we can on a four-year deal."

And, when the Yankees came in with $52 million, meaning three million a year more than Lucchino was willing to go on his offer (on the table), it became clear that New York was the place to go - - unless Damon wanted to give Boston a $10-12 million "hometown" discount. Hey, he ain't that much of an idiot.

Did Cashman really have a deal for a CF - and was ready to pull the trigger? It's possible - and, if not, hey, a bluff is a bluff - and a good one when it works.

I just hope this is not a case of Damon wanting to go somewhere other than New York - but the money in Yankeeland was just that much more than he could get anywhere else.

The best thing for Damon to do is to produce, out of the gate, for the Yankees. It will get the fans on his side and that always makes your life pleasant in this town. And, when life is hassle-free, and you're making $13 million a year, feeling good about your choice is easier than Tara Reid after being locked in a liquor store overnight.

Posted by Steve Lombardi at December 21, 2005 10:31 AM
Comments

Makes sense

STNYY
12-21-05, 11:59 AM
I understand some of the criticism of Damon. But reserve judgement untill you see this lineup----1-8 is there better?

The moves still may come. You never know, there could be a left fielder who will split time with Sheff out there. Thus limiting Bernie to pinch hit duties. If that is the case you will be looking at the best lineup in baseball.

You're right about the lineup. Adding Damon, plus Cano coming into his own and Bernie mostly on the bench and Tino gone gives us more balance, as opposed to the cliff at the bottom of the lineup we had last year. Damon is a hell of a hitter, especially if you like guys who work the count, which I do.

But I'll bet dollars to donuts that come crunch time in the playoffs it'll be the guys on the mound for the Yanks who decide things, and not our all-star lineup.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-21-05, 12:00 PM
I still can't believe this BS...

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 12:02 PM
From www.waswatching.com: (http://www.waswatching.com:/)

Cashman Can Thank L.A. & Lucchino For Damon

Brian Cashman played poker on this Free Agent pick-up - and won.

The minute that Kenny Lofton signed with the Dodgers, that closed the Damon market to two teams - the Yankees and the Red Sox.

Knowing this, Cashman told Damon's agent, Scott Boras, we're going to trade for a CF now, unless Damon wants to sign now, for much less than the seven years that you're looking for (as reported).

Boras knew the Red Sox offer - 4 years for $40-42 million. So, at this point, he had to tell his client "We're never going to get 7 years. We're only going to get four - in New York or Boston. And, if the Yankees trade for a CF, then Boston has us by the short ones. We need to get the most money that we can on a four-year deal."

And, when the Yankees came in with $52 million, meaning three million a year more than Lucchino was willing to go on his offer (on the table), it became clear that New York was the place to go - - unless Damon wanted to give Boston a $10-12 million "hometown" discount. Hey, he ain't that much of an idiot.

Did Cashman really have a deal for a CF - and was ready to pull the trigger? It's possible - and, if not, hey, a bluff is a bluff - and a good one when it works.

I just hope this is not a case of Damon wanting to go somewhere other than New York - but the money in Yankeeland was just that much more than he could get anywhere else.

The best thing for Damon to do is to produce, out of the gate, for the Yankees. It will get the fans on his side and that always makes your life pleasant in this town. And, when life is hassle-free, and you're making $13 million a year, feeling good about your choice is easier than Tara Reid after being locked in a liquor store overnight.

Posted by Steve Lombardi at December 21, 2005 10:31 AM
Comments

Makes sense

I applaud Cashman's move. Can't blame Stein for this one, Cashman played his cards right and got his man

wileedog
12-21-05, 12:03 PM
Bernie had like 75 VORPs those seasons. That value is in runs. 75 runs above replacement level. Last year he was probably like 5 VORP.

70 runs man. That is impact.

edit: he had a VORP of 7.3 last year. 67.7 runs man.

And the 98 team scored about 70 runs more.

Plus there were years with Curtis below replacement value, or like in 99 when Brosious hit .247/.307/.414.

Again, I don't think you are talking about a huge difference when you factor in just how much of a better hitter Bernie was in those years than Damon is now, or will be going forward.

Plus despite the giddiness, there are still some question marks this year. Sheffield has declined 3 straight years and it looks like the Yanks are set to send him back out on the field another 120+ games, which IMO is a big mistake. Worse, my bet is Bernie gets significant playing time at DH, and he's flat out cooked. Posada's numbers dropped sharply last year - not a good sign for a 34 year old catcher, and without a real backup on the bench he's likely to get lots of innings again this year.

Damon or no, this lineup may be hard-pressed to even equal its totals from last year. That's why the arm problems are more significant than Bernie's were, IMO.

SoxIn4
12-21-05, 12:06 PM
Sox didn't want him back for 4 years? If they didn't offer him $40 million for 4 years I might believe that. So the Yanks will pay $3 million per year more. Not a huge difference, but keep telling yourself the Sox were fiscally responsible...while they look for a taker on Manny's $20 million per year contract.

If he was such an attractive FA, why didn't "the love" pour in from other teams around MLB? Answer: No one else overpays for aging talent like the Yankees. I'm not here to slam Damon as a player--I loved him on the Sox and think he's the best leadoff hitter in MLB (right now). I just don't think he'll be as offensively productive in year 3 and 4. Obviously, the RS don't either. It's the same scenario as Pedro. Sure, RS will miss them for a couple of years, but feel that the $52mm isn't worth a couple of "great" seasons.

.

Martini6196
12-21-05, 12:07 PM
Love the move. This extends the batting order and provides the Yankees with a decent centerfielder with a great lead-off bat.

I like this deal because it's not out of the realm of possibility that the Yankees sign someone else next offseason to play centerfield and move Damon to a corner spot.

I'd hate to be an opposing pitcher facing the Yankee lineup.

BronxByTheBay
12-21-05, 12:07 PM
Plus despite the giddiness, there are still some question marks this year. Sheffield has declined 3 straight years and it looks like the Yanks are set to send him back out on the field another 120+ games, which IMO is a big mistake. Worse, my bet is Bernie gets significant playing time at DH, and he's flat out cooked. Posada's numbers dropped sharply last year - not a good sign for a 34 year old catcher, and without a real backup on the bench he's likely to get lots of innings again this year.

Damon or no, this lineup may be hard-pressed to even equal its totals from last year. That's why the arm problems are more significant than Bernie's were, IMO.

Thanks. Hear that screetching hald my morning just came to?

You're such an asshole. :eek:

38Special
12-21-05, 12:08 PM
If he was such an attractive FA, why didn't "the love" pour in from other teams around MLB? Answer:
.
What other teams needed a center fielder that badly with no options in the minors?

ShaneTravis
12-21-05, 12:08 PM
You're right about the lineup. Adding Damon, plus Cano coming into his own and Bernie mostly on the bench and Tino gone gives us more balance, as opposed to the cliff at the bottom of the lineup we had last year. Damon is a hell of a hitter, especially if you like guys who work the count, which I do.

But I'll bet dollars to donuts that come crunch time in the playoffs it'll be the guys on the mound for the Yanks who decide things, and not our all-star lineup.

You are so right on the money with the pitcher comments. Whoever steps up in the rotation and pen will have a lot to say about how far the Yanks advance.
But, a major thorn in my side last year was watching Bubba,Womack,Bernie,Rube,Lawton get at bats (mostly inneffective) when an average centerfielder offensively/defensively would have contributed to more wins.
I am pretty excited about Dotel/Damon. I was a very loud antagonist at the games this year when Damon was out in center. I thought he was a loud mouth, prima donna.......
And now? I am on the Jesus bangwagon! lol

gdn
12-21-05, 12:08 PM
:lol:

Goose54
12-21-05, 12:08 PM
This move is a good one as long as he plays at a top level for 3 years.

He's a pest at the top of the lineup and even those who want to maintain that Jeter may be the better guy at the top have to admit that Damon is more of a prototypical leadoff guy - seemingly always seeing 7-10 pitches each at bat.

It'll be fun if Torre takes the reins off of him, Jeter and ARod and let them all run crazy.


Now they just have to get rid of Posada before he gains 10/5 status :)

yankeebot
12-21-05, 12:09 PM
Did Cashman really have a deal for a CF - and was ready to pull the trigger? It's possible - and, if not, hey, a bluff is a bluff - and a good one when it works.


I love believing that Cashman out-bluffed Boras.

Jace
12-21-05, 12:10 PM
And the 98 team scored about 70 runs more.

Plus there were years with Curtis below replacement value, or like in 99 when Brosious hit .247/.307/.414.

Again, I don't think you are talking about a huge difference when you factor in just how much of a better hitter Bernie was in those years than Damon is now, or will be going forward.

Plus despite the giddiness, there are still some question marks this year. Sheffield has declined 3 straight years and it looks like the Yanks are set to send him back out on the field another 120+ games, which IMO is a big mistake. Worse, my bet is Bernie gets significant playing time at DH, and he's flat out cooked. Posada's numbers dropped sharply last year - not a good sign for a 34 year old catcher, and without a real backup on the bench he's likely to get lots of innings again this year.

Damon or no, this lineup may be hard-pressed to even equal its totals from last year. That's why the arm problems are more significant than Bernie's were, IMO.

In '99 Bernie's VORP was 81. The '99 team scored 10 more runs than the '05 team. In '05 Bernie's VORP was 7. I think its very fair to say Bernie had a huge impact on making the 99 team as good as it was and almost none on the '05 team. It doesn't matter what Chad Curtis did, it matters what the rest of the lineup did as a whole. If Chad Curtis had a lot of below-replacement level at-bats, that is part of the '99 equation.

I hope Cashman/Torre gets wise about keeping Sheff out of RF. I put odds on that of 1:1

Bernie apparently had ok numbers DHing last year. He was above average in few at-bats, but he will be much better than last year if he DHs all year. Posada is a concern but I still think he puts up average to above average #'s for a catcher. Our lineup is easily the best in the AL East.

STNYY
12-21-05, 12:14 PM
I applaud Cashman's move. Can't blame Stein for this one, Cashman played his cards right and got his man

Buster Olney loves this move, fwiw, which really doesn't make me feel any better: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=2267080

One positive thing you can say about this deal is the length. I don't like Damon for 4 years, but I would have absolutely pushed Cash off the GW Bridge if they had given him 5 or more.

Losing Damon DOES hurt the Sox, I'm just not convinced it helps the Yanks enough to this an applause-worthy move.

Jdkush10
12-21-05, 12:15 PM
Either way you look at it, Cash upgraded in CF - which is what we all wanted him to do. I know there are some negatives to this deal, but we probably won't see those for another two years, and by then we'll hopefully have a CF ready for the bigs in our minor league system. We upgraded offensively when comparing Damon to Bernie and Bubba, and defensively as well. The only real knock against Damon's defense is his arm, and while that may have some impact, it will hopefully be only minimal. I at first did not want the face of the "Idiots" on this team, but now that he is, I'm mildly excited to see what he can do with this team. The Yanks have a pretty sick lineup; now, I just hope they can get some reliable pitching to back it up.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 12:16 PM
I love believing that Cashman out-bluffed Boras.

He also got Bernie fr $1.5 mil. While not a great move, Boras got 5/75 for Magglio last year. Glad to see Borass have a heart ;)

Yanks3
12-21-05, 12:17 PM
Here is our new player, its going to be really strange to say the least

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1944/damon7bo.jpg

!!

StatenIslandYankee
12-21-05, 12:17 PM
Damon or Jeter, it doesn't matter who bats first or second. They are interchangeable, IMHO.

hardrain
12-21-05, 12:17 PM
Cashman did just what he said he'd do! Improve CF and the bullpen...I love it

wileedog
12-21-05, 12:18 PM
Thanks. Hear that screetching hald my morning just came to?

You're such an asshole. :eek:

:hugs:

Yanks3
12-21-05, 12:19 PM
Just dont get Ortiz or Manny

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1944/damon7bo.jpg

LOL

Kulish29
12-21-05, 12:19 PM
Buster Olney loves this move, fwiw, which really doesn't make me feel any better: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=2267080

One positive thing you can say about this deal is the length. I don't like Damon for 4 years, but I would have absolutely pushed Cash off the GW Bridge if they had given him 5 or more.

Losing Damon DOES hurt the Sox, I'm just not convinced it helps the Yanks enough to this an applause-worthy move.


By reaching an agreement with Johnny Damon on Tuesday night, the Yankees will have five of the AL's top 12 run-scorers in their lineup next season.

That's from the Olney article and that is ridiculous. Ridiculously awesome. :)

wileedog
12-21-05, 12:20 PM
I hope Cashman/Torre gets wise about keeping Sheff out of RF. I put odds on that of 1:1
Right now the candidate to play out there everyday is Bubba. That should do wonders for the lineup.

But I hope you are right.


Bernie apparently had ok numbers DHing last year. He was above average in few at-bats, but he will be much better than last year if he DHs all year.
I don't buy it. He's a year older and his shoulders are a year worse. He may maintain a semi respectable OBP, but at best he will be a slap hitter like he was by the end of last year.


Posada is a concern but I still think he puts up average to above average #'s for a catcher. Our lineup is easily the best in the AL East.

True. But I'm still not going to be giddy about the fact that we still have a CFer and LFer with subpar arms, and a RFer who can't or won't raise his glove over his head. And I think it will be felt this year. How much so will depend on the pitching.

Tifoso
12-21-05, 12:20 PM
That's from the Olney article and that is ridiculous. Ridiculously awesome. :)

WOW. What a great stat :D

Yankees13
12-21-05, 12:21 PM
I think one way to look at this in a positive light if you wish, is that the Yankees window of oppturnity isn't gonna be open forever I personally think we have 06 and 07 to win again before we start rebuliding with Hughes, Duncan et al. If that's the case, we get Damon for two good years when he could help put us over the top, and in his bad years, we wouldn't have had a chance to win the WS anyway.

jnewmark
12-21-05, 12:21 PM
[QUOTE=STNYY]Buster Olney loves this move, fwiw, which really doesn't make me feel any better: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=2267080

.


Yeah, considering he said this not long ago :

"they have little interest in Johnny Damon unless he's willing to sign with New York at a bargain rate, which is highly unlikely. "

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 12:21 PM
Just dont get Ortiz or Manny


Especially Ortiz. At $5 mil, he is vastly overpaid and wouldn't improve our offense

StatenIslandYankee
12-21-05, 12:21 PM
Do you people realize that Sox not having Damon hurts. Remember they depend on offense and Damon scores over 100 runs a season, try replacing that Boston. CYA @ 2nd place.

shotgun_sam
12-21-05, 12:22 PM
If he was such an attractive FA, why didn't "the love" pour in from other teams around MLB? Answer: No one else overpays for aging talent like the Yankees. I'm not here to slam Damon as a player--I loved him on the Sox and think he's the best leadoff hitter in MLB (right now). I just don't think he'll be as offensively productive in year 3 and 4. Obviously, the RS don't either. It's the same scenario as Pedro. Sure, RS will miss them for a couple of years, but feel that the $52mm isn't worth a couple of "great" seasons.

.


Yeah, your team doesn't even feel that Manny is worth is salary, so i'm not suprised. Sox fans are playing the "we're better off without that contract" now, but it's pretty clear to see that the organization is in a tailspin with two major holes and two stars that are asking out of the town.

Boston would kill to have Pedro back, they wish Rocket would come back, and when Damon helps us get our 27th ring, that 52 million won't sound like such a bad deal.

StatenIslandYankee
12-21-05, 12:22 PM
Just dont get Ortiz or Manny

LOL
Yeah because Manny and Ortiz can't hit.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 12:22 PM
Do you people realize that Sox not having Damon hurts. Remember they depend on offense and Damon scores over 100 runs a season, try replacing that Boston. CYA @ 2nd place.

Maybe even 3rd, their pitching may do a lot more harm than good

RobbiMan
12-21-05, 12:23 PM
What other teams needed a center fielder that badly with no options in the minors?

Both LA teams just to name two. And both could afford Damon.

YankClipper5
12-21-05, 12:23 PM
Argh! I don't mind Damon but we overpaid, I read the Soxweren't going to go above their initial 40 thousandish... i guess he is still an upgrade, and with a much stronger bullpen, we should be a decent team.

Yanks3
12-21-05, 12:23 PM
Yeah because Manny and Ortiz can't hit.

Its not that, its just I rather not have more Boston players.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 12:24 PM
Look at this lineup, and even if some of them decline a bit:

Damon .300-.310
Jeter .310
ARod .310, 40-50 HR
Sheffield .290-.300, 30 HR
Matsui .300, 30 HR
Giambi .280-.300, 30-40 HR
Cano .290-.300
Posada .275-.280, 20 HR
Williams .250-.275, 15 HR

With the exception of Posada and Bernie, total domination. Maybe they get Cairo, maybe Andy Phillips steps it up, but when your only worries are 8 and 9, you have few worries.

Pitching does win it all usually, and the White Sox will be strong. But if the Yankees can score 4-5 runs per game, they will usually win, even with less than stellar results from Mussina, Wright, and Pavano (I still think Wang and Chacon will be the saviors like last year).

This team is much stronger than last year's, no doubt about it.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 12:25 PM
Both LA teams just to name two. And both could afford Damon.

They have a centerfielder, thats why the Damon descision came in last night according to the article.

shotgun_sam
12-21-05, 12:25 PM
Its not that, its just I rather not have more Boston players.


If manny or ortiz were DH'ing for us i'd forget they ever played there. :D

RobbiMan
12-21-05, 12:25 PM
Yeah, your team doesn't even feel that Manny is worth is salary, so i'm not suprised. Sox fans are playing the "we're better off without that contract" now, but it's pretty clear to see that the organization is in a tailspin with two major holes and two stars that are asking out of the town.

Boston would kill to have Pedro back, they wish Rocket would come back, and when Damon helps us get our 27th ring, that 52 million won't sound like such a bad deal.

Why would the Sox "Kill" to have Pedro back? There is a newspaper report this morning that his toe is jacked up and because of it, he is behind schedule in his winter training. The Sox did not want to lock Pedro into a long contract because they knew he would begin to break down. Guess they were right.

StatenIslandYankee
12-21-05, 12:26 PM
Its not that, its just I rather not have more Boston players.
Oh I could careless about what team they play or played for. If they can come here and help us win, I'm all for it.

Yanks3
12-21-05, 12:26 PM
If manny or ortiz were DH'ing for us i'd forget they ever played there. :D

True, forgive and forget I guess.

Its just always at least for me going to be thinking about those times when they killed us.

Just an eary feeling. :D

boo_427
12-21-05, 12:26 PM
Cashman did just what he said he'd do! Improve CF and the bullpen...I love it

Come now...

You know that beard and hair aren't allowed. CLEAN IT UP! ;)

I agree I like the signing. Damon is a hard-nosed ball player.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-21-05, 12:27 PM
Do you people realize that Sox not having Damon hurts. Remember they depend on offense and Damon scores over 100 runs a season, try replacing that Boston. CYA @ 2nd place.

Try 3rd place--the Blue Jays look relatively strong

StatenIslandYankee
12-21-05, 12:27 PM
Maybe even 3rd, their pitching may do a lot more harm than good
Would not shock me. If AJ Burnett can pitch up to the hype, I think there is a new team we better be watching out for.

Tifoso
12-21-05, 12:27 PM
Try 3rd place--the Blue Jays look relatively strong

Word.

RobbiMan
12-21-05, 12:27 PM
They have a centerfielder, thats why the Damon descision came in last night according to the article.

The point is that the Dodgers chose not to overpay for Damon and instead settled for a couple of years with Loftin. The Angels could have pursued Damon and chose not to because he was asking for a contract that would have been an overpayment. It reinforces the poster's point that Damon wasn't an attractive FA and that the Yankees overpay for aging veterans. The Red Sox did not want to overpay for him and whether or not that was a good choice will hash itself out in the next couple of seasons.

shotgun_sam
12-21-05, 12:29 PM
Why would the Sox "Kill" to have Pedro back? There is a newspaper report this morning that his toe is jacked up and because of it, he is behind schedule in his winter training. The Sox did not want to lock Pedro into a long contract because they knew he would begin to break down. Guess they were right.


Alright, maybe the reason they wouldn't want him back is that he can't beat the Yanks.


You think a toe injury would worry them? They just traded for JOSH BECKETT. The guy who doesn't play baseball when he has a blister. And their current rotation fills out with Post-sock Schilling, Clement, Wakefield, and Arroyo, b/c Wells wants out.

So yeah maybe they would want Pedro back.

whalers
12-21-05, 12:29 PM
Try 3rd place--the Blue Jays look relatively strong

depending on who the sox get to play 1st, short, and cf it could very well be the 2nd place blue jays.

StatenIslandYankee
12-21-05, 12:29 PM
Try 3rd place--the Blue Jays look relatively strong
Yeah, it's all on AJ's arm. Ryan was a strong move, although overpaid. But Chacin is a decent #3/4, Ted can still give you 12-15 wins and as long as Halladay is strong, he's a CY young 20 game winner. If they can produce just a little more offensively they won't be easy.

effdamets
12-21-05, 12:29 PM
If he was such an attractive FA, why didn't "the love" pour in from other teams around MLB? Answer: No one else overpays for aging talent like the Yankees. I'm not here to slam Damon as a player--I loved him on the Sox and think he's the best leadoff hitter in MLB (right now). I just don't think he'll be as offensively productive in year 3 and 4. Obviously, the RS don't either. It's the same scenario as Pedro. Sure, RS will miss them for a couple of years, but feel that the $52mm isn't worth a couple of "great" seasons.

.
Yeah... Anyway....

This type of thinking is the reason why the Red Sox have won exactly ONE championship in 88 years!

Yankees13
12-21-05, 12:30 PM
The point is that the Dodgers chose not to overpay for Damon and instead settled for a couple of years with Loftin. The Angels could have pursued Damon and chose not to because he was asking for a contract that would have been an overpayment. It reinforces the poster's point that Damon wasn't an attractive FA and that the Yankees overpay for aging veterans. The Red Sox did not want to overpay for him and whether or not that was a good choice will hash itself out in the next couple of seasons.
The Angels are stuck with Steve Finley I believe, also Chone Figgins plays CF quite a bit, they didn't really need a CF.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-21-05, 12:31 PM
Would not shock me. If AJ Burnett can pitch up to the hype, I think there is a new team we better be watching out for.

I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, anything can happen. Its not out of the realm of possibilities.

shotgun_sam
12-21-05, 12:32 PM
Yeah, it's all on AJ's arm. Ryan was a strong move, although overpaid. But Chacin is a decent #3/4, Ted can still give you 12-15 wins and as long as Halladay is strong, he's a CY young 20 game winner. If they can produce just a little more offensively they won't be easy.



And keep in mind they play the Sox VERY tough....they are to the Sox what the D-Rays are to us, lol :D

JeffWeaverFan
12-21-05, 12:32 PM
That isn't true! It's about you stating that Giles is a much better overall ballplayer than Damon which not not takes in hitting ability, but fielding and running the bases. My contention is that though Giles is a better hitter, Damon is a better fit for the Yankees at 32 than Giles is at 35 and the positions they play as well as one guy being a top of the lineup hitter.
Runs Created is an offensve stat that takes running the bases into consideration. Giles, playing half his game in a horrendous park, created 26 more runs than Damon. If they were in even parks, especially given Giles away numbers, that number would probably be closer to 34. There's no way that Damon's defense helps the team by 34 runs. Furthermore, Damon is a guy that uses his legs to be the ballplayer he is while Giles uses his eye. Damon will lose his legs; Giles will not lose his eye. Lastly, Damon showed signs of breaking down last season while Giles had one of his best seasons. And for those reasons, I was for the signing of Giles to a 3 year deal if he could have been had, and he couldn't have, and was not in favor of signing Damon to a 4 year deal.

SoxIn4
12-21-05, 12:34 PM
Yeah, your team doesn't even feel that Manny is worth is salary, so i'm not suprised. Sox fans are playing the "we're better off without that contract" now, but it's pretty clear to see that the organization is in a tailspin with two major holes and two stars that are asking out of the town.

Boston would kill to have Pedro back, they wish Rocket would come back, and when Damon helps us get our 27th ring, that 52 million won't sound like such a bad deal.

Sure, we'd kill to have Pedro back, but not that contract. Only the Mets were dumb enough to do that deal. "when Damon helps us get our 27th ring"...we heard all that last year when they signed RJ last offseason, and where did that get you? Its funny, when the season ended this year and there was initial talk about Damon and Yankees, this board was full of "no way", "we don't need him", etc. etc. FLIP-FLOP, FLIP-FLOP

shotgun_sam
12-21-05, 12:35 PM
Runs Created is an offensve stat that takes running the bases into consideration. Giles, playing half his game in a horrendous park, created 26 more runs than Damon. If they were in even parks, especially given Giles away numbers, that number would probably be closer to 34. There's no way that Damon's defense helps the team by 34 runs. Furthermore, Damon is a guy that uses his legs to be the ballplayer he is while Giles uses his eye. Damon will lose his legs; Giles will not lose his eye. Lastly, Damon showed signs of breaking down last season while Giles had one of his best seasons. And for those reasons, I was for the signing of Giles to a 3 year deal if he could have been had, and he couldn't have, and was not in favor of signing Damon to a 4 year deal.



But the city of San Diego is a tempting siren, and i don't blame him at all for leaving. Perfect weather and a great baseball city? Forgetaboutit.

JeffWeaverFan
12-21-05, 12:38 PM
Both LA teams just to name two. And both could afford Damon.
The Angels already had one signed for $9 million. Although he's horrible, it's a similar situation that the Yankees had last year with Bernie. We already had the guy signed for the year. Had Finley been only been signed to a 1 year deal last season, you can bet the Angels would have made a play.

The Dodgers' J.D. Drew can play CF very well. They also have Kenny Lofton and Jose Cruz Jr.

I wasn't in favor of signing Damon, but the Yankees definitely have had the biggest need for a CFer - and it isn't close. The Yankee offseason would have been a complete failure without signing or trading for a CFer.

shotgun_sam
12-21-05, 12:38 PM
Sure, we'd kill to have Pedro back, but not that contract. Only the Mets were dumb enough to do that deal. "when Damon helps us get our 27th ring"...we heard all that last year when they signed RJ last offseason, and where did that get you? Its funny, when the season ended this year and there was initial talk about Damon and Yankees, this board was full of "no way", "we don't need him", etc. etc. FLIP-FLOP, FLIP-FLOP



That's nice and all, but that still doesn't change the fact that the Sox are reeling, and don't even look like a playoff contender right now.


[and the Blue Jays smile and wave]

destiNY
12-21-05, 12:39 PM
Do you people realize that Sox not having Damon hurts. Remember they depend on offense and Damon scores over 100 runs a season, try replacing that Boston. CYA @ 2nd place.

At this point, I'd take the Blue jays in 2nd and the Saux in 3rd, the Jays staff should be better than satsifactory, with a better bullpen, and a solid hitting line up. :eek: