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FMITK2005
12-12-05, 03:00 PM
It is believed that Molina and his agent, Alan Nero, are considering an offer from the Yankees while the Angels are eager to advance some catching prospects.

http://losangeles.angels.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051207&content_id=1278673&vkey=news_ana&fext=.jsp&c_id=ana

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 03:02 PM
Please dont be true, I dont want some crappy catcher who only hd one good year while Posada is more than fine for now.

ICEBERG18
12-12-05, 03:03 PM
I don't get it, that must be a mistake.

StaceyRosie
12-12-05, 03:04 PM
Oh for f*ck's sake....

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-12-05, 03:06 PM
"Not offering Molina arbitration essentially ends his tenure with Angels. Teams cannot negotiate with their free agents to whom they did not offer salary arbitration until May 1. It is believed that Molina and his agent, Alan Nero, are considering an offer from the Yankees while the Angels are eager to advance some catching prospects."


Hmmmm..this thing is a week old, why would no one else pick up on it? This makes no sense.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-12-05, 03:06 PM
Posada must be going somewhere...

BronxBaumer
12-12-05, 03:07 PM
Wow, now that would be a stupid move...

Sam18
12-12-05, 03:11 PM
Just Say No!!

RobRiv
12-12-05, 03:13 PM
Hmmm. I suspected something like this might be in the works after the Yanks blocked Jorge from playing in the world baseball exhibition extravaganza.

DontHateOnNumber2
12-12-05, 03:16 PM
This is crap...I hope. Pleeeaaaaase don't be true!

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 03:17 PM
Hmmm. I suspected something like this might be in the works after the Yanks blocked Jorge from playing in the world baseball exhibition extravaganza.

What?

effdamets
12-12-05, 03:17 PM
This cannot be true. Why would the Yankees be interested in Molina after they had signed Stinnett as their backup?

MattUNC2003
12-12-05, 03:18 PM
Posada must be going somewhere...

Definitely have to agree with you on this one.

Can someone please point me to a site with Molina's SABR defensive stats? If there are such things. Especially if they can be compared to JPo's on the same site. I'm really curious to see if Molina is that much better of a defensive catcher.

nnysiny
12-12-05, 03:18 PM
this cant be true

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 03:24 PM
This cannot be true. Why would the Yankees be interested in Molina after they had signed Stinnett as their backup?

If it's at all true (the article is nearly a week old), Molina and Posada could share the catching & DH duties. Posada could also play 1B to give Giambi time off (days off or as DH), Stinnett would be available as a backup & could come in late in the game after Molina has been pinch run for. If this were the case, Molina & Posada would both be a lot fresher late in the season.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-12-05, 03:24 PM
This cannot be true. Why would the Yankees be interested in Molina after they had signed Stinnett as their backup?

If it is true they wouldn't be signing Molina to be the backup, they'd be signing him with the premise of trading Posada...

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-12-05, 03:25 PM
If it's at all true (the article is nearly a week old), Molina and Posada could share the catching & DH duties. Posada could also play 1B to give Giambi time off (days off or as DH), Stinnett would be available as a backup & could come in late in the game after Molina has been pinch run for. If this were the case, Molina & Posada would both be a lot fresher late in the season.

We already have enough 1stbaseman/DHs, Posada would be moved if Molina is signed IMO...

24Rickey
12-12-05, 03:26 PM
How many teams keep 3 catchers on their roster?? Posada would most likely be out no?

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 03:26 PM
We already have enough 1stbaseman/DHs, Posada would be moved if Molina is signed IMO...

I'm just spelling out a possibility. The Yankees have one guy who is a DH/1Bman.

ojo
12-12-05, 03:27 PM
If it's at all true (the article is nearly a week old), Molina and Posada could share the catching & DH duties. Posada could also play 1B to give Giambi time off (days off or as DH), Stinnett would be available as a backup & could come in late in the game after Molina has been pinch run for. If this were the case, Molina & Posada would both be a lot fresher late in the season.

i'm pretty sure time could actually stop if we had both posada and molina on the basepaths together.

yanksphan
12-12-05, 03:27 PM
Bye bye Jorge...

ICEBERG18
12-12-05, 03:27 PM
I think the writer just guessed the Yankees as a team that offered him contract, which i highly doubt is the case. And like someone suggested above, the article is 5 days old and no one in the NY media has picked up on it.

nickzcool51
12-12-05, 03:28 PM
Hmmm. I suspected something like this might be in the works after the Yanks blocked Jorge from playing in the world baseball exhibition extravaganza.

Two compeletely unconnected topics. I don't see how you could have possibly suspected we'd seen Molina after they blocked Posada from playing, saying they needed him fresh

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-12-05, 03:28 PM
I'm just spelling out a possibility. The Yankees have one guy who is a DH/1Bman.

They have Phillips, Giambi, Bernie (probably), Sheffield, Matsui, Posada (days off)...

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 03:29 PM
I think the writer just guessed the Yankees as a team that offered him contract, which i highly doubt is the case.

Exactly... and as usual, people have jumped on this and have already concluded that Posada is a goner.

RobRiv
12-12-05, 03:30 PM
What?

The Yanks blocking from Posada from participating in the WBC made me wonder if the Yanks might intend to move Posada.

There are many good reasons to keep Posada with the team in March, just as there are many good reasons to keep Jeter, A-rod, and whoever else with the team instead of participating in the world baseball classic.

It seemed odd to me that the Yanks would single out Jorge. It made me think they might have other plans for him, or other plans for a starting catcher next season.

We'll see.

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 03:32 PM
The Yanks blocking from Posada from participating in the WBC made me wonder if the Yanks might intend to move Posada.

There are many good reasons to keep Posada with the team in March, just as there are many good reasons to keep Jeter, A-rod, and whoever else with the team instead of participating in the world baseball classic.

It seemed odd to me that the Yanks would single out Jorge. It made me think they might have other plans for him, or other plans for a starting catcher next season.

We'll see.

This makes no sense. If the Yankees had planned to trade Posada, why on earth would they go through the trouble of telling him and Baseball that he couldn't play in Bud's Folly (which is months away)?

ieddyi
12-12-05, 03:33 PM
How is not paying Posada his 2007 option of 12M a bad thing???

Paying him 12M in 2007 would be a colassal overpay

RobRiv
12-12-05, 03:37 PM
This makes no sense. If the Yankees had planned to trade Posada, why on earth would they go through the trouble of telling him and Baseball that he couldn't play in Bud's Folly (which is months away)?

It's a stretch of logic but it makes sense. perhaps if Jorge is moving to another team, his new team wouldn't want him playing in the the Bud Bowl. Perhaps they'd prefer he attended spring training, just like the Yanks want him to be at camp getting to know the new pitchers and pitching coaches.

It's all wild speculation at this point. I predict Posada goes nowhere, but I could be wrong.

24Rickey
12-12-05, 03:38 PM
This makes no sense. If the Yankees had planned to trade Posada, why on earth would they go through the trouble of telling him and Baseball that he couldn't play in Bud's Folly (which is months away)?

Because if he gets hurt they can't trade him??

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 03:39 PM
It's a stretch of logic but it makes sense. perhaps if Jorge is moving to another team, his new team wouldn't want him playing in the the Bud Bowl. Perhaps they'd prefer he attended spring training, just like the Yanks want him to be at camp getting to know the new pitchers and pitching coaches.

It's all wild speculation at this point. I predict Posada goes nowhere, but I could be wrong.

I'd like to agree that it is a huge stretch of logic.

NewEraYanks2527
12-12-05, 03:43 PM
How is not paying Posada his 2007 option of 12M a bad thing???

Paying him 12M in 2007 would be a colassal overpay
Yes it would, of course how much money do the Yankees save if they have to pay Molina for the next couple years? Personally I think Molina could do good here and handle the pitchers very well but that doesn't mean I think this is a great idea. Wait I know why they are doing this, Posada is going to play CF, it makes perfect sense, a slow fielder with very little range, just like Bernie last year.

mhmajp
12-12-05, 04:09 PM
Wait I know why they are doing this, Posada is going to play CF, it makes perfect sense, a slow fielder with very little range, just like Bernie last year.

J Po's probably got a much stronger arm, at least. ;)

spiritof27
12-12-05, 04:11 PM
I'm not sure why everyone would be so upset if we picked up Molina. and where do people come up with the argument that he had "one good year" and is going to get paid off of it? His 2005 season was pretty much right in line with his numbers over the last 3-4 years. His batting average was a tad bit higher, but most of his numbers come very close to his 2003 numbers. He's not going to be better than Posada, offensively, but he is a wonderful defensive catcher. He will throw more runners out than Jorge does, much more. And they're both slow as molasses, so that's pretty much a wash.

Not to mention that whether this means Posada is traded or just splits duty, it stops Jorge from vesting that 12m option for 2007. Surely there are plenty of better ways to spend $12m.

So what's the problem here?

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 04:16 PM
How is not paying Posada his 2007 option of 12M a bad thing???

Paying him 12M in 2007 would be a colassal overpay

unless we trade Posada there is no way that option doesnt vest. We could have pudge in his prime and Torre would still have posada catch

RhodeyYankee2638
12-12-05, 04:17 PM
unless we trade Posada there is no way that option doesnt vest. We could have pudge in his prime and Torre would still have posada catch

Not true, he has to catch a certain number of games for that incentive to kick in. Even Torre can see that Posad is awful down the stretch, we just didn't have anyone that could fill in for him 50 games a season

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 04:19 PM
Not true, he has to catch a certain number of games for that incentive to kick in

And Torre would have him catch every single game, what I am saying is that Torre is loyal to a fault and would start Posada even if it was bad for the club

RhodeyYankee2638
12-12-05, 04:28 PM
And Torre would have him catch every single game, what I am saying is that Torre is loyal to a fault and would start Posada even if it was bad for the club

I dont think thats true, not if the back up catcher is good. No way Torre was going to let Flaherty catch 50 games last year. He was bad defensively and horrible offensively

38Special
12-12-05, 04:31 PM
The article is old and nothing else has been suggested. Give it a rest :)

YankeePride1967
12-12-05, 04:32 PM
Posada must be going somewhere...

DH maybe?

terminator
12-12-05, 04:34 PM
Not true, he has to catch a certain number of games for that incentive to kick in. Even Torre can see that Posad is awful down the stretch, we just didn't have anyone that could fill in for him 50 games a season

Unless Posada is officially made the second string catcher, there is no way Torre won't let him make enough appearances in order for his option to vest. While it might make business sense, its something which Torre is not wired to do. And I can see both sides of the argument on this one.

When Steve Avery joined the Red Sox, he had a clause in his contract which allowed his option to be picked up, if he made the requisite number of starts. He didn't pitch well - but the Sox rotation was pretty bad any way, so he still remained a starter. In the last week of the season, he needed one more start for his option to vest. Duquette, the GM at the time, didn't want him starting - but Jimy Williams gave him the start, and his 4.85 M option (I think that was the amount) was picked up. Later on, a number of veteran players - on the Sox and on other teams - said that they admired Williams for doing that, and no free agent would have come to Boston if they had
prevented Avery from making that last start.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-12-05, 04:35 PM
Unless Posada is officially made the second string catcher, there is no way Torre won't let him make enough appearances in order for his option to vest. While it might make business sense, its something which Torre is not wired to do. And I can see both sides of the argument on this one.


I hope Cashman becomes a GM and can see this, and takes the proverbial loaded gun away from the 6 year old

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 04:38 PM
Unless Posada is officially made the second string catcher, there is no way Torre won't let him make enough appearances in order for his option to vest. While it might make business sense, its something which Torre is not wired to do. And I can see both sides of the argument on this one.

When Steve Avery joined the Red Sox, he had a clause in his contract which allowed his option to be picked up, if he made the requisite number of starts. He didn't pitch well - but the Sox rotation was pretty bad any way, so he still remained a starter. In the last week of the season, he needed one more start for his option to vest. Duquette, the GM at the time, didn't want him starting - but Jimy Williams gave him the start, and his 4.85 M option (I think that was the amount) was picked up. Later on, a number of veteran players - on the Sox and on other teams - said that they admired Williams for doing that, and no free agent would have come to Boston if they had
prevented Avery from making that last start.

Which is why Torre shouldnt make Posada miss it by only one start by a decent amount of games, but that will never happen and Torres biggest fault. He is too damn loyal. I bet you Bernie will be starting in Center after whoever we have goes into a slump.

ieddyi
12-12-05, 04:42 PM
I hope Cashman becomes a GM and can see this, and takes the proverbial loaded gun away from the 6 year old

But Cash is gonna sign bernie if the reports are true.....

RhodeyYankee2638
12-12-05, 04:43 PM
But Cash is gonna sign bernie if the reports are true.....

Seriously, its like giving mouthwash to a drunk. You know the guy knows better, but he's gonna drink it anyways

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 04:43 PM
But Cash is gonna sign bernie if the reports are true.....

Maybe it was a ploy to get Bernie to decline arbitration and get a draft pick? Hey I can hope cant I?

Skaggs09
12-12-05, 04:46 PM
I don't think there's any was the Yankees would offer a contract to Molina. Posada is going to be the starting catcher coming into Spring Training.

terminator
12-12-05, 05:00 PM
Which is why Torre shouldnt make Posada miss it by only one start by a decent amount of games, but that will never happen and Torres biggest fault. He is too damn loyal. I bet you Bernie will be starting in Center after whoever we have goes into a slump.

Seriously - it's a tough position to put Torre in. Imagine what other veterans will think if Torre starts benching Posada - not because there is a better option on the team - but because they don't want to pick up his option. There will - and should be - an uproar.

I can't see Cashman advising Torre to do that. He's not wired that way either. Duquette
had the people skills of a sociopath - no surprise that he would advocate not giving Avery that last start.

The ball is in Cashman's court - don't want Posada's option to be picked up? Trade him, or get a better option. Molina might be the alternative which allows them not to pick up Posada's option, and thus save 16M. And if Cashman's only solution to the CF problem is to have - yet again - Bubba and Bernie on the team - then noone should have a problem with Bernie getting a fair number of starts.

BobbyMurcerFan
12-12-05, 05:02 PM
If it's at all true (the article is nearly a week old), Molina and Posada could share the catching & DH duties. Posada could also play 1B to give Giambi time off (days off or as DH), Stinnett would be available as a backup & could come in late in the game after Molina has been pinch run for. If this were the case, Molina & Posada would both be a lot fresher late in the season.Essentially the same formula used when we had both Jorge and Girardi.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 05:23 PM
Seriously - it's a tough position to put Torre in. Imagine what other veterans will think if Torre starts benching Posada - not because there is a better option on the team - but because they don't want to pick up his option. There will - and should be - an uproar.

I can't see Cashman advising Torre to do that. He's not wired that way either. Duquette
had the people skills of a sociopath - no surprise that he would advocate not giving Avery that last start.

The ball is in Cashman's court - don't want Posada's option to be picked up? Trade him, or get a better option. Molina might be the alternative which allows them not to pick up Posada's option, and thus save 16M. And if Cashman's only solution to the CF problem is to have - yet again - Bubba and Bernie on the team - then noone should have a problem with Bernie getting a fair number of starts.

True its not a position you would want to be in but sometimes you got to take one for the team so to speak. Torre wouldnt have to bench Posada he could DH him out of concern for his health and production. I would advocate Molina if it meant not having Posadas option vest, but the problem is even if they get Molina, Torre would still have Posada catch.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 05:50 PM
Posada isn't going anywhere. The Angels site is the only source that we have so far that says Molina and the Yankees are talking. I'm taking this with a grain of salt.

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 06:11 PM
Essentially the same formula used when we had both Jorge and Girardi.

Not exactly. I could see Posada & Molina playing nearly everyday, just not at catcher.

Jasbro
12-12-05, 06:22 PM
Not exactly. I could see Posada & Molina playing nearly everyday, just not at catcher.

Pretty intriguing idea. Limiting each to 80ish catching starts could very well boost the offensive production and defensive stability for both guys.

The questions that come to mind, though is whether Molina has enough offense to justify limiting the opportunities to rest Shef and Giambi over the course of a season.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:25 PM
Not exactly. I could see Posada & Molina playing nearly everyday, just not at catcher.

This would be unneccesary though. Posada is not a good enough hitter to DH on a consistant basis. There's no reason to spend money on a luxury like Molina when we have much pressing needs to address.

spiritof27
12-12-05, 06:32 PM
so everybody ignores the fact that molina didn't have a career offensive year? i suppose that doesn't fit into everyone's preconception?

Spiker101
12-12-05, 06:35 PM
The Yanks have 16 million reasons to sign Molina, but that doesn't mean they're going to trade Posada. The option would kick in if another team played him the 80 some games, so that's a non-starter. You simply release Stinnett and eat the $650,000, which is peanuts compared to the money we're talking about. Posada could catch 70 games and DH the rest of the time, nothing wrong with having a switch-hitting DH of Posada's caliber. Then Molina plays full time starting in '07. It makes sense. I have no idea it's true and I would kind of doubt it. This is a little too hard-ball for the Yankees organization.

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 06:35 PM
This would be unneccesary though. Posada is not a good enough hitter to DH on a consistant basis. There's no reason to spend money on a luxury like Molina when we have much pressing needs to address.

I was only pointing out something that could be done. Not something I thought would be done. The article referenced is nearly a week old.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:38 PM
The Yanks have 16 million reasons to sign Molina, but that doesn't mean they're going to trade Posada. The option would kick in if another team played him the 80 some games, so that's a non-starter. You simply release Stinnett and eat the $650,000, which is peanuts compared to the money we're talking about. Posada could catch 70 games and DH the rest of the time, nothing wrong with having a switch-hitting DH of Posada's caliber. Then Molina plays full time starting in '07. It makes sense. I have no idea it's true and I would kind of doubt it. This is a little too hard-ball for the Yankees organization.

Cashman is not going to release a guy he just signed, lets be realistic. We don't need Molina.

ComeBackShane47
12-12-05, 06:42 PM
Cashman is not going to release a guy he just signed, lets be realistic. We don't need Molina.

He did it before with Widger and Flaherty

Spiker101
12-12-05, 06:42 PM
I was only pointing out something that could be done. Not something I thought would be done. The article referenced is nearly a week old.

I think you're missing the point. Signing Molina would actually save money over the next three years, while filling a hole at catcher after 2006. But like I said earlier, I don't think the Yanks FO does Jorge bad like this. This would be cold.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:44 PM
He did it before with Widger and Flaherty

That is on a much smaller scale. The idea of using Posada is alien to Joe, and he won't do it. Molina will cost too much money, money we should use to solve our bullpen and CF problems.

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 06:46 PM
I think you're missing the point. Signing Molina would actually save money over the next three years, while filling a hole at catcher after 2006. But like I said earlier, I don't think the Yanks FO does Jorge bad like this. This would be cold.

I'm not missing the point at all. You are agreeing with my thoughts from earlier. I'd love to see this move, I've been saying it for a few months now. You're actually the first person to agree with me.

While I think it would be a fantastic move, I don't see it happenning.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 06:54 PM
Posada has good enough hitting ability to dh, considering besides Ortiz( and Giambi) there arent many great hitting fulltime DH. Posada and his .269/.375/.469 line is good enough to DH.

Jasbro
12-12-05, 06:57 PM
I'm not missing the point at all. You are agreeing with my thoughts from earlier. I'd love to see this move, I've been saying it for a few months now. You're actually the first person to agree with me.

While I think it would be a fantastic move, I don't see it happenning.

Jasbro respectfully lays claim as first to agree with JDPNYY. See 6:22PM.

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 06:57 PM
Jasbro respectfully lays claim as first to agree with JDPNYY. See 6:22PM.

Sorry about that.

Michaels07
12-12-05, 07:07 PM
How many teams keep 3 catchers on their roster?? Posada would most likely be out no?

The Yankees of the Casey Stengel and Ralph Houk era`s

RhodeyYankee2638
12-12-05, 07:10 PM
I'd rather have Molina than Posada. Hit in offense? Yes. But Molina is a superior defensive catcher, maybe he would even block the plate

Spiker101
12-12-05, 07:26 PM
I'm not missing the point at all. You are agreeing with my thoughts from earlier. I'd love to see this move, I've been saying it for a few months now. You're actually the first person to agree with me.

While I think it would be a fantastic move, I don't see it happenning.

My bad. I punched the quote button on the wrong message.:o

surge511
12-12-05, 07:43 PM
I highly doubt Molina is signed by the Yankees - I see a rebound year by Posada in 2006, more similar to his career norms. He had a bit of a dip in 2005, but my guess is that he's not done yet. I would focus on getting a good minor league catcher that Posada can groom. He will most likely be here for 2 or 3 more years, so we must act fast on that issue, or Posada's twilight will go to waste for the new catcher. It is not the end of the world, but it would be nice.

ComeBackShane47
12-12-05, 07:47 PM
That is on a much smaller scale. The idea of using Posada is alien to Joe, and he won't do it. Molina will cost too much money, money we should use to solve our bullpen and CF problems.

I meant getting rid of Stinnet. Personally I think getting a second catcher is a good idea, but Molina isn't the right guy. His defense is over overrated and
hitting wise his OBP is too low for my taste.

ChrisV82
12-12-05, 08:50 PM
Definitely have to agree with you on this one.

Can someone please point me to a site with Molina's SABR defensive stats? If there are such things. Especially if they can be compared to JPo's on the same site. I'm really curious to see if Molina is that much better of a defensive catcher.

Can't help you. I can provide some crude stats -


AL Leaders in % CS off Catchers (with PCS) (Thru games of Oct. 2, 2005)
(.4 SB Attempt/Game)
Rank Player Team %CS
1 Toby Hall TB 41.8 ( 33/79 )
2 John Buck KC 34.1 ( 31/91 )
3 Jorge Posada NYY 30.2 ( 39/129 )
4 Jason Varitek Bos 24.4 ( 21/86 )
5 Victor Martinez Cle 23.2 ( 29/125 )


AL Leaders in Fielding Pct by Catcher (Thru games of Oct. 2, 2005)
(.6 GP/Game)
Rank Player Team Fld%
1 A.J. Pierzynski CWS .999 ( 851/852 )
2 Jorge Posada NYY .996 ( 794/797 )
3 John Buck KC .996 ( 696/699 )
4 Victor Martinez Cle .995 ( 962/967 )
5 Ivan Rodriguez Det .995 ( 762/766 )


Posada and Bengie both had the same # of errors (3).

JoPo - .262 19 71 .352
Molina - .295 15 69 .336

Is Molina that much better? In my own opinion, no. If someone is looking for a catcher, I don't see why they would trade for Posada when they can sign Molina, unless they consider Posada a better catcher...in which case, why would we get rid of him?

JDPNYY
12-12-05, 09:37 PM
My bad. I punched the quote button on the wrong message.:o

That's cool. I'm just glad there's a person or two out there that agree finally.

ChinMusic
12-12-05, 09:50 PM
And Torre would have him catch every single game, what I am saying is that Torre is loyal to a fault and would start Posada even if it was bad for the club

It's not up to Torre.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-12-05, 09:53 PM
It's not up to Torre.

OHHHHH YES IT IS. It didn't stop him from using Bernie when we had Lofton, it didn't stop him from using Quantrill, Embree and F-Rod.

ChinMusic
12-12-05, 10:00 PM
OHHHHH YES IT IS. It didn't stop him from using Bernie when we had Lofton, it didn't stop him from using Quantrill, Embree and F-Rod.

If the Yankees are truly interested in Molina to be able to cut bait with Posada after this year, then that is a longterm strategic move affecting the budget and roster of the 2007 team, and that is under the direction of the front office. Torre is the ingame manager, and he is Cashman's subordinate. If Cashman gives him a directive, to not let Posada catch a certain number of games, then I dont see how Torre can defy that order. And if he does, he should be fired.

ieddyi
12-12-05, 10:16 PM
If the Yankees are truly interested in Molina to be able to cut bait with Posada after this year, then that is a longterm strategic move affecting the budget and roster of the 2007 team, and that is under the direction of the front office. Torre is the ingame manager, and he is Cashman's subordinate. If Cashman gives him a directive, to not let Posada catch a certain number of games, then I dont see how Torre can defy that order. And if he does, he should be fired.

From your lips to George's ears

USF Yankee
12-12-05, 10:20 PM
I don't think we would sign Molina just to save on Posadas option. Do you really think cashman would take that chance?? What if Molina gets hurt and Posada starts anyway?? Now we are on the hook for Po's option AND Molina's salery for next year. What if Molina isn't effective and Joe starts Posada? Or more likely, what if Joe starts Posada regardless of how Molina does? There are too many things that can happen to risk millions of dollars on a catcher when we don't really need to aquire one and have much more pressing needs.

Javadawg44
12-12-05, 10:58 PM
Actually, I like this idea a lot. Molina is one of the top 6-7 catchers in the game, and with the depressed market, you're not going to pay him a huge salary. This year and next year, you platoon JoPo and Molina to keep Posada fresh, Molina probably catches 100 games, Posada the other 60. The rest of the time you put Posada at 1B and Giambi at DH. A rested Posada probably hits closer to his peak averages than not, and those averages are pretty good for 1B (.900OPS is pretty decent).

Posada has caught a LOT of innings and is getting to the age where catchers break down. I'd rather take a chance of having a rested Posada than get into a situation where we have Stinnett starting 4-5 times a week......

After all, a few years ago nobody needed a SS and let Tejada go to Baltimore for relatively cheap money. 2 years later he's one of the best players in the game and Baltimore probably trades him for 1-2 top prospects/players. Buy low, in a pinch we could (possibly) sell high if need be.

guidry36
12-12-05, 11:38 PM
Posada also has a player option for 2008. I believe 82 games at C next season vests the 2007 and 2008 options. He did have an off year hitting last year, but hit much better at the end of the season. His contract is untradeable. Molina may be an upgrade....I will concede that.....but Posada could easily improve on his 2005 offensive #'s. Torre won't.....and shouldn't......try to limit Posada's games at C. Love him or hate him, Posada has meant a lot to the Yankees. He has a bad contract, unfortunately, but he certainly paid his dues. He caught 133 games last year and it wouldn't hurt to pare that back to 120 or so. Signing Molina would make no sense....for the Yankees....or for Molina.

StatenIslandYankee
12-12-05, 11:51 PM
Where could Molina be going? LA didn't offer arbitration, Mets have a catcher. What are his options?

guidry36
12-12-05, 11:55 PM
I am surprised the Padres haven't made an offer. There aren't many options left.

StatenIslandYankee
12-12-05, 11:56 PM
I am surprised the Padres haven't made an offer. There aren't many options left.
Didn't they trade for Doug?

NYDCYankee
12-12-05, 11:57 PM
I am surprised the Padres haven't made an offer. There aren't many options left.


They have Mirabelli now.

guidry36
12-13-05, 12:12 AM
Mirabelli is a good backup....not a starter. If the Padres pass on Molina after letting Hernandez go, it doesn't make sense.

nyyanksfan20
12-13-05, 12:15 AM
Where could Molina be going? LA didn't offer arbitration, Mets have a catcher. What are his options?

That's why I said in another thread that we should get him. I don't think he could be had for any cheaper right now. He and Jorge can split the catching duties and some DH.

guidry36
12-13-05, 12:21 AM
The only problems are the 2007 and 2008 options for Posada's contract. I don't see Molina waiting 3 years until the job is completely his. I also wonder how many games Giambi will start at 1B.....though I suppose Posada would be an option there. A good option?? I'll stay away from that. How many games do you see Giambi playing at 1B?? I'm guessing 100- 120. Good point about Molina likely being cheap now.

Panamaniac42
12-13-05, 12:27 AM
Pushing Posada out for a light-hitting 31-year-old with an injury history and 30 lbs. of excess fat is beyond idiotic.

Posada's contract situation may be less than desirable, but for f*ck's sake, Molina is not the answer to any of our problems.

The only way this makes an ounce of sense is if Posada can bring back a legitimate center fielder. Molina should not be touched with a 10 foot pole. I wish to God the Mets had signed him so the Yankees wouldn't even be tempted.

Panamaniac42
12-13-05, 12:31 AM
Posada also has a player option for 2008. I believe 82 games at C next season vests the 2007 and 2008 options. He did have an off year hitting last year, but hit much better at the end of the season. His contract is untradeable. Molina may be an upgrade....I will concede that.....but Posada could easily improve on his 2005 offensive #'s. Torre won't.....and shouldn't......try to limit Posada's games at C. Love him or hate him, Posada has meant a lot to the Yankees. He has a bad contract, unfortunately, but he certainly paid his dues. He caught 133 games last year and it wouldn't hurt to pare that back to 120 or so. Signing Molina would make no sense....for the Yankees....or for Molina.

Posada is very unappreciated. I know it's frustrating to watch him not block the plate and I know he's not a defensive whiz but he's not some schmuck back there like Mike Piazza.

guidry36
12-13-05, 12:34 AM
Posada isn't going anywhere.....the needs that are being looked at are CF, bullpen, and utility infielder. Stinnett at least shouldn't have the bat knocked out of his hands like Flaherty did last year. The Padres would be wise to sign Molina....but not the Yankees.

guidry36
12-13-05, 12:40 AM
Posada is very unappreciated. I know it's frustrating to watch him not block the plate and I know he's not a defensive whiz but he's not some schmuck back there like Mike Piazza.
Agreed. Posada's contract is excessive to a point.......but he has earned the right to be the Yankees C for the length of the deal. Posada remains a good player.....his defense was better last year than in 04'. I had commented that Molina may be an upgrade....but that is based on Molina's 2005 season.......yet, even there, he only caught 105 games. Plate blocking aside.....look at Posada's games and innings caught as a testimony to his durability. Forget about the 1-year wonders......Posada will be the Yankees C for 3 more years.

Panamaniac42
12-13-05, 12:49 AM
Agreed. Posada's contract is excessive to a point.......but he has earned the right to be the Yankees C for the length of the deal. Posada remains a good player.....his defense was better last year than in 04'. I had commented that Molina may be an upgrade....but that is based on Molina's 2005 season.......yet, even there, he only caught 105 games. Plate blocking aside.....look at Posada's games and innings caught as a testimony to his durability. Forget about the 1-year wonders......Posada will be the Yankees C for 3 more years.

yeah like i said the only way it would even make sense is if Posada by some small miracle could land us a real CF in return. certainly doubtful given the contract and age, etc.

even then, it would be painfully amusing to see what would happen as Kelly Stinnett would be pressed into regular action with Molina making a few trips to the 15-day DL.

nyyanksfan20
12-13-05, 12:55 AM
I agree believe it or not Posada is a top 5 catcher in the league and most teams would love to have him, when we can't wait to get rid of him.

guidry36
12-13-05, 12:57 AM
yeah like i said the only way it would even make sense is if Posada by some small miracle could land us a real CF in return. certainly doubtful given the contract and age, etc.

even then, it would be painfully amusing to see what would happen as Kelly Stinnett would be pressed into regular action with Molina making a few trips to the 15-day DL.
Stop it.....you're scaring me:eek: . Much more painful than amusing.............

Buzah!
12-13-05, 01:27 AM
this is scary. This slug and Stinnett would probably be platooned in a scenario that would send Po to Philly...

Spiker101
12-13-05, 07:16 AM
Mirabelli is a good backup....not a starter. If the Padres pass on Molina after letting Hernandez go, it doesn't make sense.

They reportedly plan on having essentially two backup catchers split the catching duties evenly. This might be the very definition of being a poor franchise. They simply didn't have the money to keep Hoffman and Giles and a frontline catcher. The catching market has suddenly become very tight. Molina might be available for three years at $6 million per, which makes him a bargain I would think. What people say about Molina isn't that he's a great defensive catcher per se but that he calls a good game, which of course is the rap against Posada.

Spiker101
12-13-05, 07:19 AM
I agree believe it or not Posada is a top 5 catcher in the league and most teams would love to have him, when we can't wait to get rid of him.

There are a few misguided Posada bashers in the world but most of us who are intrigued by this idea don't want to get rid of Jorge because he think he has no value. We just think that at $25 million over two years, he's a bit pricey. But it's all academic. Posada will be here for the next two years.

goin for 27
12-13-05, 08:11 AM
We just think that at $25 million over two years, he's a bit pricey. But it's all academic. Posada will be here for the next two years.

THAT is a little understated. :lol:

Agree for sure though, Po is here to stay.

surge511
12-13-05, 09:18 AM
There are a few misguided Posada bashers in the world but most of us who are intrigued by this idea don't want to get rid of Jorge because he think he has no value. We just think that at $25 million over two years, he's a bit pricey. But it's all academic. Posada will be here for the next two years.

True. And he will produce as one of the top catchers in the league. He may have a very bloated contract, but he still can hit. My guess is that Posada retires a Yankee, and I just hope that we can bring in a younger catcher to learn from Posada. We are running out of time in that respect, the new catcher needs appear soon.

JDPNYY
12-13-05, 09:33 AM
They reportedly plan on having essentially two backup catchers split the catching duties evenly. This might be the very definition of being a poor franchise. They simply didn't have the money to keep Hoffman and Giles and a frontline catcher. The catching market has suddenly become very tight. Molina might be available for three years at $6 million per, which makes him a bargain I would think. What people say about Molina isn't that he's a great defensive catcher per se but that he calls a good game, which of course is the rap against Posada.

Molina is also masterful at framing pitches. Which would be invaluable to the pitching staff.

RIyankee
12-13-05, 09:53 AM
Unless Posada is officially made the second string catcher, there is no way Torre won't let him make enough appearances in order for his option to vest. While it might make business sense, its something which Torre is not wired to do. And I can see both sides of the argument on this one.

When Steve Avery joined the Red Sox, he had a clause in his contract which allowed his option to be picked up, if he made the requisite number of starts. He didn't pitch well - but the Sox rotation was pretty bad any way, so he still remained a starter. In the last week of the season, he needed one more start for his option to vest. Duquette, the GM at the time, didn't want him starting - but Jimy Williams gave him the start, and his 4.85 M option (I think that was the amount) was picked up. Later on, a number of veteran players - on the Sox and on other teams - said that they admired Williams for doing that, and no free agent would have come to Boston if they had
prevented Avery from making that last start.

I'm not saying that they should get Molina, but if Posada catches 81 games, he gets $12 mil for 2007. Jorge is overpaid now. He'll more than likely be terrible in 2007. This team needs to get its house in order. Jorge should DH in 2006.

NewEraYanks2527
12-13-05, 10:12 AM
Molina is also masterful at framing pitches. Which would be invaluable to the pitching staff.
I too think that would be a huge plus and perhaps the biggest advantage Molina has over Posada behind the plate. I've always wanted to have a catcher like that.

38Special
12-13-05, 10:16 AM
oh man we better sign him because he frames pitches well

JDPNYY
12-13-05, 10:28 AM
oh man we better sign him because he frames pitches well

Dude, your sarcasm is getting old and tired.

IronCaballo4
12-13-05, 10:29 AM
I'm not saying that they should get Molina, but if Posada catches 81 games, he gets $12 mil for 2007. Jorge is overpaid now. He'll more than likely be terrible in 2007. This team needs to get its house in order. Jorge should DH in 2006.

Great point, but if we sign Molina and Posada is at DH........let's just say we'd be better off putting a bookcase and a file cabinet on the basepaths

Panamaniac42
12-13-05, 11:21 AM
Great point, but if we sign Molina and Posada is at DH........let's just say we'd be better off putting a bookcase and a file cabinet on the basepaths

Posada looks like Tiki Barber compared to Molina.

nojoke
12-13-05, 01:32 PM
The only con to Molina is his speed but he can produce and is well known as a defensive catcher. If Posada would go to DH, that would fill our DH hole.
I'm not sure about putting Posada as a DH. As a former player, the DH role gets old real quick, and I don't know if we want a Piazza situation on our hands where Posada has no idea when he will be catching (no doubtedly they will still try to put him out there).

Spiker101
12-13-05, 01:45 PM
The only con to Molina is his speed but he can produce and is well known as a defensive catcher. If Posada would go to DH, that would fill our DH hole.
I'm not sure about putting Posada as a DH. As a former player, the DH role gets old real quick, and I don't know if we want a Piazza situation on our hands where Posada has no idea when he will be catching (no doubtedly they will still try to put him out there).

I can't believe we're talking about this as it's never going to happen but it's so interesting an idea that there's something compelling about it.
You would I think be able to give Jorge some certainty about when he will catch and when he will DH. Obviously, he's not going to be catching on the days RJ pitches, and while I don't know for sure, I get the impression that he and Mussina don't really mesh that well, either.
But he and Chacon seemd to do fine together.

Spiker101
12-13-05, 01:47 PM
oh man we better sign him because he frames pitches well

Framing a pitch well is nothing to be sneezed at, not only because it helps in getting an occasional close strike but also because it seems to bolster the confidence of pitchers.

StatenIslandYankee
12-13-05, 02:30 PM
Molina is also masterful at framing pitches. Which would be invaluable to the pitching staff.
Agreed!

ChinMusic
12-14-05, 12:30 AM
There are a few misguided Posada bashers in the world but most of us who are intrigued by this idea don't want to get rid of Jorge because he think he has no value. We just think that at $25 million over two years, he's a bit pricey. But it's all academic. Posada will be here for the next two years.

Youre forgetting his 4$ buyout after the 07 season. Its going to cost 29$ million for the next 2 years.

guidry36
12-14-05, 04:02 AM
Youre forgetting his 4$ buyout after the 07 season. Its going to cost 29$ million for the next 2 years.
Posada gets a $6 mil. base salary plus a 4.5 mil.bonus as part of the guaranteed part of his deal in 2006 (1st 5 years were guaranteed)
82 games at C in 06' vests his $12 mil. option for 2007.......
and a $12 mil. option for 2008.
I have seen the 2008 option called a team option (with a $4 mil. buyout).......and I have seen it called a guaranteed year (with the $4 mil. buyout being transferred from 2007 to 2008 ) once the games played incentive is reached.

It is either 3 years 34.5 mil. remaining.....or 2 years 26.5 mil. (including 2008 buyout) plus Yankees option for 2008 at $8 mil.
His agent is incredible.................

CalYankeeFan
12-14-05, 04:07 AM
They have Phillips, Giambi, Bernie (probably), Sheffield, Matsui, Posada (days off)...

Nomar....:thatsodd::-ponder-:

Matsui55
12-14-05, 06:26 AM
Posada gets a $6 mil. base salary plus a 4.5 mil.bonus as part of the guaranteed part of his deal in 2006 (1st 5 years were guaranteed)
82 games at C in 06' vests his $12 mil. option for 2007.......
and a $12 mil. option for 2008.
I have seen the 2008 option called a team option (with a $4 mil. buyout).......and I have seen it called a guaranteed year (with the $4 mil. buyout being transferred from 2007 to 2008 ) once the games played incentive is reached.

It is either 3 years 34.5 mil. remaining.....or 2 years 26.5 mil. (including 2008 buyout) plus Yankees option for 2008 at $8 mil.
His agent is incredible.................

If his option vest because of games started at C this year (2006), then his $12M salary for 2007 is guaranteed. Then, what was a $4M buyout is also activated, and moves to after the 2007 season- but there is NO guarantee for 2008- he only gets the $4M buyout option as guaranteed money- in effect making him a $16M player for 2007. But there is NO 2008 contract or guaranteed.

Spiker101
12-14-05, 06:47 AM
Posada gets a $6 mil. base salary plus a 4.5 mil.bonus as part of the guaranteed part of his deal in 2006 (1st 5 years were guaranteed)
82 games at C in 06' vests his $12 mil. option for 2007.......
and a $12 mil. option for 2008.
I have seen the 2008 option called a team option (with a $4 mil. buyout).......and I have seen it called a guaranteed year (with the $4 mil. buyout being transferred from 2007 to 2008 ) once the games played incentive is reached.

It is either 3 years 34.5 mil. remaining.....or 2 years 26.5 mil. (including 2008 buyout) plus Yankees option for 2008 at $8 mil.
His agent is incredible.................

This the best site I've seen for this kind of stuff. It has Posada getting total of $25 million for two seasons with money stretched over three years.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005_01_03_mlbcontracts_archive.html
(http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005_01_03_mlbcontracts_archive.html)

guidry36
12-14-05, 10:25 AM
Jorge Posada: 5-Year worth 51M- + receives a 15M signing bonus paid over 5 years ( paid 1.5M '02, 2M '03, 3M '04, 4M '05, 4.5M '06)- + he will make 4M in 2002, in 2003- 5M, in 2004- 6M and in 2005- 8M and in 2006- 9M- + the deal includes a Team Option for 2007 worth 12M or a 4M buyout- + he Can void deal after 2004- + if he catches 330 games between 2004 and 2006, his 2007 option becomes guaranteed and a Player Option for 2008 is added Agents: Alan Nero and Luis Espinel Service Time: 8.085

I've seen the cotsworld contract info....then this info from MLB4U.com. I read a news story at the start of free agency that mentioned a 2008 player option as well. It would be better if the buyout is all that is due in 2008......he would be able to be signed for far less than the $12 mil. due in 2007.

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 11:07 AM
Posada gets a $6 mil. base salary plus a 4.5 mil.bonus as part of the guaranteed part of his deal in 2006 (1st 5 years were guaranteed)
82 games at C in 06' vests his $12 mil. option for 2007.......
and a $12 mil. option for 2008.
I have seen the 2008 option called a team option (with a $4 mil. buyout).......and I have seen it called a guaranteed year (with the $4 mil. buyout being transferred from 2007 to 2008 ) once the games played incentive is reached.

It is either 3 years 34.5 mil. remaining.....or 2 years 26.5 mil. (including 2008 buyout) plus Yankees option for 2008 at $8 mil.
His agent is incredible.................

He is not making 10.5 in 06. He is making 13.5 in 06. This is directly from Cot's. 9 million base salary and 4.5 million of signing bonus is payable in 06. 13.5 +12 + 4 is 29.5 million for the next 2 years.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 11:08 AM
He is not making 10.5 in 06. He is making 13.5 in 06. This is directly from Cot's. 9 million base salary and 4.5 million of signing bonus is payable in 06. 13.5 +12 + 4 is 29.5 million for the next 2 years.

wow, I can't believe the contract we gave him

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 11:16 AM
His agent is incredible.................

This is the point that keeps getting overlooked by the sentimentalists, who seem to feel that it is dirty pool to try to limit his games at catcher to prevent his 07 option from kicking in. His contract salary is basically implying that he would continue to be far and away the best catcher in baseball. He isnt, and he is not worth the money. If they sign Molina to prevent Posada's option from vesting Im not going to cry for Posada because he only got to steal 10 million instead of 15 million.

Jersey Yankee
12-15-05, 11:19 AM
Framing a pitch well is nothing to be sneezed at, not only because it helps in getting an occasional close strike but also because it seems to bolster the confidence of pitchers.
Whoa, you're not the original Spiker, are you?

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 11:22 AM
This is the point that keeps getting overlooked by the sentimentalists, who seem to feel that it is dirty pool to try to limit his games at catcher to prevent his 07 option from kicking in. His contract salary is basically implying that he would continue to be far and away the best catcher in baseball. He isnt, and he is not worth the money. If they sign Molina to prevent Posada's option from vesting Im not going to cry for Posada because he only got to steal 10 million instead of 15 million.


The Yanks gave him the contract. Posada didn't steal anything.

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 11:30 AM
The Yanks gave him the contract. Posada didn't steal anything.

No one "gives" anyone a contract. Contracts are negotiated. Posada and his agent represented to the Yankees, that he would continue to be the best in his business at least through the 07 season. That is why the Yankees agreed to pay that salary. He is not delivering what, by signing the contract, he promised.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 11:30 AM
The Yanks gave him the contract. Posada didn't steal anything.

He signed the contract with his urine hands though

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 12:06 PM
No one "gives" anyone a contract. Contracts are negotiated. Posada and his agent represented to the Yankees, that he would continue to be the best in his business at least through the 07 season. That is why the Yankees agreed to pay that salary. He is not delivering what, by signing the contract, he promised.


Oh, well in that case Posada better get it in gear to be the best next year. Because he and his agent promised and that's why the Yanks signed him.

Of course the Yanks take no responsability in their own evaluation of Posada.

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 12:12 PM
Oh, well in that case Posada better get it in gear to be the best next year. Because he and his agent promised and that's why the Yanks signed him.

Of course the Yanks take no responsability in their own evaluation of Posada.

They did. That's why his 2007 year is not guaranteed.

shotgun_sam
12-15-05, 12:18 PM
No one "gives" anyone a contract. Contracts are negotiated. Posada and his agent represented to the Yankees, that he would continue to be the best in his business at least through the 07 season. That is why the Yankees agreed to pay that salary. He is not delivering what, by signing the contract, he promised.



Well, this isn't a video game, and there's no way the Yanks honestly believed that ANY catcher would remain at the top of his game, let alone the 'best in baseball' all the way into '07, at the age Posada would be (I mean, unless you helped negotiate this deal, since you're pretty confident that's why they paid the money.)

This contract was signed during the years when everyone was getting big contracts, especially those from the dynasty years.

Mr. Mxylsplk
12-15-05, 02:21 PM
Posada and his agent represented to the Yankees, that he would continue to be the best in his business at least through the 07 season. That is why the Yankees agreed to pay that salary. He is not delivering what, by signing the contract, he promised.
That's some interesting logic.

Spiker101
12-15-05, 02:56 PM
Whoa, you're not the original Spiker, are you?

maybe, though not sure how original I am.

Yankees1962
12-15-05, 03:31 PM
He is not making 10.5 in 06. He is making 13.5 in 06. This is directly from Cot's. 9 million base salary and 4.5 million of signing bonus is payable in 06. 13.5 +12 + 4 is 29.5 million for the next 2 years.
If the 2007 option goes into effect then the 4.0M buyout isn't paid until 2008. In that scenario, the Yankees pay Posada 13.5M in 2006, 12.0M in 2007 and 4.0M in 2008. Without a doubt, the contract is one of those over-inflated contracts that were signed from 1997 to 2002 costing the Yankees 10.5M average for six years of service from Posada. Furthermore, though, contracts have gone down some after the 2002 season, they're starting to rise again and it will be interesting to see how high they tap out at.

Yankee Bulldawg
12-15-05, 03:43 PM
I hope Jorge stays a Yankee, but i believe with the Yankees not allowing him to play in the WBC i think they are going to use him as a trade bait. i hope i am wrong about that

BJG
12-15-05, 03:49 PM
Molina is also masterful at framing pitches. Which would be invaluable to the pitching staff.

In a quest to find tangible evidence of this, I found that having Bengie behind the plate for the Angel's last year did not lead to, for example, more strikeouts per nine innings compared to when the other guys caught (6.55 vs. 7.51). This leads me to believe one of the following:

a) Molina is better at framing pitches than the other Angels catchers, but framing pitches has no real effect on the game.
b) Molina isn't as good at framing pitches than the other Angel catchers and it does have an effect on the game.
c) Framing pitches has nothing to do with anything.

Either conclusion doesn't make me pro-Molina.

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 03:55 PM
In a quest to find tangible evidence of this, I found that having Bengie behind the plate for the Angel's last year did not lead to, for example, more strikeouts per nine innings compared to when the other guys caught (6.55 vs. 7.51). This leads me to believe one of the following:

a) Molina is better at framing pitches than the other Ranger catchers, but framing pitches has no real effect on the game.
b) Molina isn't as good at framing pitches than the other Angel catchers and it does have an effect on the game.
c) Framing pitches has nothing to do with anything.

Either conclusion doesn't make me pro-Molina.

You mean Angels in a), correct?

Clemens831
12-15-05, 03:57 PM
I hope Jorge stays a Yankee, but i believe with the Yankees not allowing him to play in the WBC i think they are going to use him as a trade bait. i hope i am wrong about that

I don't think that the Yanks not wanting Jorge to play in the WBC shows that the Yanks are planning on using him as trade bait. Actually, to the contrary, I think that it shows that they want Jorge as fresh and healthy as possible for the 2006 season.

BJG
12-15-05, 04:13 PM
Without a doubt, the contract is one of those over-inflated contracts that were signed from 1997 to 2002 costing the Yankees 10.5M average for six years of service from Posada.

That's a bit of hyperbole to say the least, isn't it? 10.5M for someone who was the best hitter at their position in 2002, the best hitter at their position in 2003, the 3rd best hitter at their position in 2004, and the 4th best hitter at their position in 2005 hardly seems like a bad deal in the context of what was going on at the time. 10.5 was nothing in a market that would give Darren Dreifort or Chan Ho Park 13M a year.

BJG
12-15-05, 04:14 PM
You mean Angels in a), correct?

Yup, sorry. Will correct.

Yankees1962
12-15-05, 04:34 PM
That's a bit of hyperbole to say the least, isn't it? 10.5M for someone who was the best hitter at their position in 2002, the best hitter at their position in 2003, the 3rd best hitter at their position in 2004, and the 4th best hitter at their position in 2005 hardly seems like a bad deal in the context of what was going on at the time. 10.5 was nothing in a market that would give Darren Dreifort or Chan Ho Park 13M a year.
Not the least, but you're welcome to your opinion. I didn't say he was a dud just that his contract is over-inflated which I think is the same as Jeter or Arod's contracts, but whatever if it's hyperbole to you.

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 04:34 PM
That's a bit of hyperbole to say the least, isn't it? 10.5M for someone who was the best hitter at their position in 2002, the best hitter at their position in 2003, the 3rd best hitter at their position in 2004, and the 4th best hitter at their position in 2005 hardly seems like a bad deal in the context of what was going on at the time. 10.5 was nothing in a market that would give Darren Dreifort or Chan Ho Park 13M a year.


yeah, there were more than a few worse contracts from that time.

ComeBackShane47
12-15-05, 04:54 PM
As an aside...I had a dream last night where the Yanks signed Molina and I had to go on TV to explain why this was a good move for the Yanks to make. I don't remembermy argument, or why I was dreaming about a short, pudgy man, but I guess it's time to see a therapist or become an ESPN analyist

BJG
12-15-05, 04:56 PM
Not the least, but you're welcome to your opinion. I didn't say he was a dud just that his contract is over-inflated which I think is the same as Jeter or Arod's contracts, but whatever if it's hyperbole to you.

The thing is, I would hardly be shocked if the February 2002 version of Posada got a 10.5M per year deal right now. Varitek got 10M a year ago, and 2002 Posada was 2 years younger than Varitek was last year and, frankly, better. When you add to that the fact that teams are spending more this year (payroll % of profit last year dipped down to something like 54%, which is very low...lower than what the NBA and NHL guys get, which is why teams are spending this year), Posada getting 10.5 would seem logical within the context of this market, so how is it an example of the crazy market back then?

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 06:47 PM
In a quest to find tangible evidence of this, I found that having Bengie behind the plate for the Angel's last year did not lead to, for example, more strikeouts per nine innings compared to when the other guys caught (6.55 vs. 7.51). This leads me to believe one of the following:

a) Molina is better at framing pitches than the other Angels catchers, but framing pitches has no real effect on the game.
b) Molina isn't as good at framing pitches than the other Angel catchers and it does have an effect on the game.
c) Framing pitches has nothing to do with anything.

Either conclusion doesn't make me pro-Molina.

I feel that Jose Molina is also an excellent framer of pitches. The Molina's caught 92% of the innings for the Angels in 2005.

38Special
12-15-05, 06:52 PM
I feel that Jose Molina is also an excellent framer of pitches. The Molina's caught 92% of the innings for the Angels in 2005.
I guess we should trade for him too

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 06:53 PM
I guess we should trade for him too

I'm not advocating that.

38Special
12-15-05, 07:47 PM
I'm not advocating that.
I thought we were going for players with this unquantifiable quality skill of framing pitches?

I had such hopes for him too :(

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 07:50 PM
I thought we were going for players with this unquantifiable quality skill of framing pitches?

I had such hopes for him too :(

The Yankees won't be signing or trading for any Molina's this year. Once that sinks in give it a few days and you'll be able to start the process of turning that frown into a smile.

38Special
12-15-05, 07:56 PM
The Yankees won't be signing or trading for any Molina's this year. Once that sinks in give it a few days and you'll be able to start the process of turning that frown into a smile.

:):):)

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 07:57 PM
:):):)

Cool. That was faster than anyone could have hoped!

guidry36
12-15-05, 07:57 PM
If his option vest because of games started at C this year (2006), then his $12M salary for 2007 is guaranteed. Then, what was a $4M buyout is also activated, and moves to after the 2007 season- but there is NO guarantee for 2008- he only gets the $4M buyout option as guaranteed money- in effect making him a $16M player for 2007. But there is NO 2008 contract or guaranteed.
Sorry. I was off on the base salary...$6 mil. was actually the 2004 base salary. There are 3 salary sites I have checked and there are a few discrepancies. Hardballdollars.com lists a 10.2 mil. cap figure for 2006. Hadrballdollars/Cot's/and mlb4u all show 13.5 mil. as the actual 2006 salary, including bonus. The 2007 season will be $12 mil. The confusing part is the 2008 season. I understand about the $4 mil. buyout......but mlb4u mentions a 2008 players option......while I'm not about to try to say mlb4u is an accurate site....it might not be......I can't recall the source, but I had read about a 2008 player option for Posada in a newspaper article or 2. This was right before the free agency period started and there were rumors Posada might be traded. It would definitely be for the best if there is no option for 2008. Cot's seems like a good site......and Hardballdollars has some interesting info. mlb4u is questionable, but you can check it out.

From mlb4u.com:
Jorge Posada: 5-Year worth 51M- + receives a 15M signing bonus paid over 5 years ( paid 1.5M '02, 2M '03, 3M '04, 4M '05, 4.5M '06)- + he will make 4M in 2002, in 2003- 5M, in 2004- 6M and in 2005- 8M and in 2006- 9M- + the deal includes a Team Option for 2007 worth 12M or a 4M buyout- + he Can void deal after 2004- + if he catches 330 games between 2004 and 2006, his 2007 option becomes guaranteed and a Player Option for 2008 is added Agents: Alan Nero and Luis Espinel Service Time: 8.085

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 07:59 PM
That's some interesting logic.


Did I say something that not true or illogical? He was considered overall to be the best catcher in the game at the time he signed, and he signed for an unprecedented amount (for a catcher). When I put 2 and 2 together I get 4. That's my logic. Maybe you get a different answer, like we know youll never earn it, but we're going to give you a deliberately bloated contract that youre not going to earn by the midpoint of the deal anyway.

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 08:11 PM
If the 2007 option goes into effect then the 4.0M buyout isn't paid until 2008. In that scenario, the Yankees pay Posada 13.5M in 2006, 12.0M in 2007 and 4.0M in 2008. Without a doubt, the contract is one of those over-inflated contracts that were signed from 1997 to 2002 costing the Yankees 10.5M average for six years of service from Posada. Furthermore, though, contracts have gone down some after the 2002 season, they're starting to rise again and it will be interesting to see how high they tap out at.

I dont know that youre right here, but even if you are, so what? The bottom line is that it is going to cost 29.5 million for 2 years, whether or not 4 million of it is paid at the end of 2007 or the beginning of 2008. I would assume that the 4 million buyout would be due at the time the buyout is exercised. I would further assume that that buyout decison has to be made prior to November 2007, otherwise it would impede Posada's ability to file for free agency after the 2007 season. I cant imagine that that scenario wasnt considered by Posada's agent/lawyer. But again it is just an academic point...hes getting 29.5 million for the next 2 years if his option kicks in.

BJG
12-15-05, 08:25 PM
I feel that Jose Molina is also an excellent framer of pitches. The Molina's caught 92% of the innings for the Angels in 2005.

6.55 K/9 when Bengie caught.
7.62 when Jose caught.
7.12 when Josh Paul caught.

Forcing me to ask, how can both Bengie and Jose be excellent if there is that big a difference (and all of the Angels catchers caught all of the pitchers last year). What about Josh Paul? Is he excellent too, but somewhere in between the other two excellents? Or does it not matter?

flymick24
12-15-05, 08:28 PM
I hope Jorge stays a Yankee, but i believe with the Yankees not allowing him to play in the WBC i think they are going to use him as a trade bait. i hope i am wrong about that

or maybe they just want to save his legs for the regular season? i wouldn't look too much into it, honestly.

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 08:35 PM
6.55 K/9 when Bengie caught.
7.62 when Jose caught.
7.12 when Josh Paul caught.

Forcing me to ask, how can both Bengie and Jose be excellent if there is that big a difference (and all of the Angels catchers caught all of the pitchers last year). What about Josh Paul? Is he excellent too, but somewhere in between the other two excellents? Or does it not matter?

Maybe there are confounding variables

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 08:40 PM
6.55 K/9 when Bengie caught.
7.62 when Jose caught.
7.12 when Josh Paul caught.

Forcing me to ask, how can both Bengie and Jose be excellent if there is that big a difference (and all of the Angels catchers caught all of the pitchers last year). What about Josh Paul? Is he excellent too, but somewhere in between the other two excellents? Or does it not matter?

Sorry about that, I misread your data. I read it as Benjie catching to the 7.51 rate.

At any rate, there's more positives to framing pitches than getting strike outs. As it is difficult or impossible to prove with stats that someone is a good framer of pitches or not, and due to the fact that there is nearly a 0% chance that Molina will be signed... this is all moot.

BJG
12-15-05, 08:54 PM
Sorry about that, I misread your data. I read it as Benjie catching to the 7.51 rate.

At any rate, there's more positives to framing pitches than getting strike outs. As it is difficult or impossible to prove with stats that someone is a good framer of pitches or not, and due to the fact that there is nearly a 0% chance that Molina will be signed... this is all moot.

What positives? If it doesn't have a positive, quantifiable effect on the box score, what does it matter?

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 09:19 PM
What positives? If it doesn't have a positive, quantifiable effect on the box score, what does it matter?

How do you know that these differences you cite between the catchers are due to the catchers? I imagine Flaherty has a similar edge over Posada, since he exclusively catches Johnson. Wouldnt these rates your quoting have to be adjusted for who the catchers are catching for?

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 09:22 PM
What positives? If it doesn't have a positive, quantifiable effect on the box score, what does it matter?

Every strike stolen, might not be on a 2 strike count. Are you saying it would not be important to steal strike 1 or strike 2? Are you saying a hitter will do just as well hitting in an 0-2 hole than 1-1, because the catcher stole the 2nd strike? That wont show up in the box score.

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 09:26 PM
Every strike stolen, might not be on a 2 strike count. Are you saying it would not be important to steal strike 1 or strike 2? Are you saying a hitter will do just as well hitting in an 0-2 hole than 1-1, because the catcher stole the 2nd strike? That wont show up in the box score.

That's pretty much what I had in mind.

BJG
12-15-05, 09:43 PM
How do you know that these differences you cite between the catchers are due to the catchers? I imagine Flaherty has a similar edge over Posada, since he exclusively catches Johnson. Wouldnt these rates your quoting have to be adjusted for who the catchers are catching for?

As I said, all of the catchers on the Rangers caught everyone. In addition, Bengie missed some time and Jose took over as the primary catcher.

For example, Bengie caught Colon 19 times, everyone else 14. This is right in line with the amount of overall playing time that Bengie received versus everyone else.

BJG
12-15-05, 09:45 PM
Every strike stolen, might not be on a 2 strike count. Are you saying it would not be important to steal strike 1 or strike 2? Are you saying a hitter will do just as well hitting in an 0-2 hole than 1-1, because the catcher stole the 2nd strike? That wont show up in the box score.

yes, but if the skill were real, then some of those strikes stolen would be on strike 3...in other words, there would be some actual evidence of it happening. since it apparently isn't happening on strike 3, there's no reason to believe that it's happening on strike 1 or strike 2. Heck, even if it were magically just happening on strike 1 or 2, that still increases the likelihood of a strikeout versus a ball on either of those pitches.

Yankees1962
12-15-05, 10:33 PM
I dont know that youre right here, but even if you are, so what? The bottom line is that it is going to cost 29.5 million for 2 years, whether or not 4 million of it is paid at the end of 2007 or the beginning of 2008. I would assume that the 4 million buyout would be due at the time the buyout is exercised. I would further assume that that buyout decison has to be made prior to November 2007, otherwise it would impede Posada's ability to file for free agency after the 2007 season. I cant imagine that that scenario wasnt considered by Posada's agent/lawyer. But again it is just an academic point...hes getting 29.5 million for the next 2 years if his option kicks in.
The buyout is due for payment in 2008 and doesn't have any effect on Posada's free agency for 2008. Furthermore, you can choose to focus just on the last two years of a six year contract, but I didn't hear any complaints about Posada's contract when he was being paid 5.5M in 2002 and 7.0M in 2003. If the backloading of contracts to players that will most likely be less effective at the end of the contract bothers you than blame Yankee management because they have a history with more than one player of drawing up such contracts.

ieddyi
12-15-05, 10:45 PM
The buyout is due for payment in 2008 and doesn't have any effect on Posada's free agency for 2008. Furthermore, you can choose to focus just on the last two years of a six year contract, but I didn't hear any complaints about Posada's contract when he was being paid 5.5M in 2002 and 7.0M in 2003. If the backloading of contracts to players that will most likely be less effective at the end of the contract bothers you than blame Yankee management because they have a history with more than one player of drawing up such contracts.

Does anyone have a recollection or understsanding of why all this backloading was done???

It seems to be the standard- Moose, Jeter, Posada, Giambi are all backloaded.

It's the foundation for the 200M payroll that won't deflate.

Just seems like w/ the length of the contracts and the backloading, they were guaranteeing players that would be paid the most when their skills were in decline- making them unmoveable

What was the advantage?

BJG
12-15-05, 10:49 PM
[/b]

Does anyone have a recollection or understsanding of why all this backloading was done???

It seems to be the standard- Moose, Jeter, Posada, Giambi are all backloaded.

It's the foundation for the 200M payroll that won't deflate.

Just seems like w/ the length of the contracts and the backloading, they were guaranteeing players that would be paid the most when their skills were in decline- making them unmoveable

What was the advantage?

It's basically an interest free loan for the team.

Mr. Mxylsplk
12-16-05, 11:12 AM
Did I say something that not true or illogical? He was considered overall to be the best catcher in the game at the time he signed, and he signed for an unprecedented amount (for a catcher). When I put 2 and 2 together I get 4. That's my logic. Maybe you get a different answer, like we know youll never earn it, but we're going to give you a deliberately bloated contract that youre not going to earn by the midpoint of the deal anyway.
Your assertion that he promised something and has subsequently failed to deliver on his promise is most illogical. There's no 2 and 2 being put together by you.

ChinMusic
12-16-05, 05:19 PM
Your assertion that he promised something and has subsequently failed to deliver on his promise is most illogical. There's no 2 and 2 being put together by you.

According to you.

Mr. Mxylsplk
12-16-05, 07:08 PM
According to you.
What did he ever "promise"? You're just not making the slightest bit of sense.

ieddyi
12-16-05, 09:50 PM
It's basically an interest free loan for the team.

Yep, I understand the time value of money, but in terms of long range planning for a baseball team, it's a horrible move. The downside is that you end up with a team full of over the top underperformers who can't be traded- a 200M payroll w/ almost no flexibility.

The Sheffield deal- with money deferred at no interest was a coup, but paying Posada 13.5M and Mussina 19M for their expected production this year is insane

BJG
12-17-05, 02:28 AM
Yep, I understand the time value of money, but in terms of long range planning for a baseball team, it's a horrible move. The downside is that you end up with a team full of over the top underperformers who can't be traded- a 200M payroll w/ almost no flexibility.

The Sheffield deal- with money deferred at no interest was a coup, but paying Posada 13.5M and Mussina 19M for their expected production this year is insane

Right, but they you also underpaid them in the past. You have to look at the whole deal, not just focus on the last years.

I Love Wang
12-17-05, 02:30 AM
Right, but they you also underpaid them in the past. You have to look at the whole deal, not just focus on the last years.

But then we can't bitch about it as much!

TheTinoMobile
12-17-05, 05:04 AM
Jeez, i hope this isn't true, I would rather overpay Nomar than overpay Bengie "i'm painfully slow and painfully ugly" Molina.... I don't see this happening, especially with Cashman being tied up with Villone and Garciaparra and our CF situation to really care who plays catcher next year. In my opinion the block on Posada from the WBC is a sign that he WILL return next year...the yankees wouldn't block him if he were going to a competitors team...they would trade him and let the other team do the dirty work of blocking him.

Jersey Yankee
12-19-05, 02:45 PM
maybe, though not sure how original I am.
What I'd meant was, did you used to post here under the username "Spiker"? Yes or no?

TheScooter
12-23-05, 03:52 PM
Bengie Molina: At some point, he's going to realize he's not going to get a big contract and he'll be desperate to re-establish his value in 2006. Whenever his contract demands drop, somebody should jump on him. Philly, maybe. The Yankees (with Posada getting more rest and more at-bats as a DH)? The Nationals? Texas? Milwaukee? Seattle?

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster

Fabien Brandy
12-23-05, 04:04 PM
Yep, I understand the time value of money, but in terms of long range planning for a baseball team, it's a horrible move.
You actually don't understand the time value of money.

The Yankees feel like the players are 'worth' the average annual value but get away with paying them less early in the contract, reducing the overall value of the contract.

How is it horrible long range planning for a baseball team (or for anything) to pay less?

AMYanks
12-23-05, 05:28 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster

I would sign him to a 1-2 year deal, just so we could avoid having Posada's 2007 option kick in.

JeffWeaverFan
12-23-05, 05:31 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster
It's not a bad idea, but I'd prefer the DH guy we get can play some corner outfield, and also could play some 1B.

JDPNYY
12-23-05, 05:33 PM
Perhaps JDPNYY's crazy vision will come to fruition.

homer2931
12-24-05, 10:59 PM
From a THT article, entitled 5 myths about the Angels

2. Molina is a great defensive catcher
I'm not sure Bengie's even a good defensive catcher at this point. His throwing has deteriorated -- from 36 of 81 base-stealers (44%) in 2003, to 18/69 (26%) in 2004, to 20/64 (31%) this year; even while his barely younger brother has been improving from 28% to 49% to 53%. And more noticeable on a day-to-day basis is Bengie's increasingly desperate habit of jabbing with his glove at pitches in the dirt, instead of trying to move his fat body in the way.

He led MLB with 10 passed balls this year to Jose Molina's three, but that doesn't begin to tell the story, since official scorers rarely even call passed balls anymore. The real action is in wild pitches: John Lackey -- he of just 71 BB in 209 innings pitched -- ranked third in all of baseball with 18 wild pitches this year; reliever Scot Shields came in seventh with 12 (and K-Rod had eight, and Esteban "I'm Not Even on the Playoff Roster" Yan uncorked five, etc.).


Posada is a better player and its really not that close

nycdoc999
12-25-05, 12:08 AM
NO Molina please....

Why in the world do we need a fat, slow, expensive catcher? It further decreases the flexibility of our already inflexible (Bernie, Andy Phillips) bench. That $6M could go somewhere else. Let damn Kelly Stinnett catch 50 games a year - he's not gonna be worse than Posada defensively, and we can take the hit offensively.

Stinnett's catching the 30+ games Randy Johnson catches anyway - give him 20-30 more. DH Posada when that happens - this goes along way to making Bernie the 2006 version of Ruben Sierra. Primarlily a PH who RARELY gets a start in the OF.

Try to trade Pavano or Small or someone for a quality OF that can play both corner positions, sign a utility guy, keep Stinnett and Phillips, and you're all set:

Jeter
Damon
ARod
Giambi
Sheffield
Matsui
Wilkerson/Michaels/JD Drew
Posada
Cano


Stinnett
Bernie
Utility guy
Bubba (? or another middle IF)
Phillips

Yankeeah
12-25-05, 12:16 AM
NO Molina please....

Why in the world do we need a fat, slow, expensive catcher? It further decreases the flexibility of our already inflexible (Bernie, Andy Phillips) bench. That $6M could go somewhere else. Let damn Kelly Stinnett catch 50 games a year - he's not gonna be worse than Posada defensively, and we can take the hit offensively.

Stinnett's catching the 30+ games Randy Johnson catches anyway - give him 20-30 more. DH Posada when that happens - this goes along way to making Bernie the 2006 version of Ruben Sierra. Primarlily a PH who RARELY gets a start in the OF.

Try to trade Pavano or Small or someone for a quality OF that can play both corner positions, sign a utility guy, keep Stinnett and Phillips, and you're all set:

Jeter
Damon
ARod
Giambi
Sheffield
Matsui
Wilkerson/Michaels/JD Drew
Posada
Cano


Stinnett
Bernie
Utility guy
Bubba (? or another middle IF)
Phillips

Since I know very little about Stinett, I would like to see him play more before I support him catching 50 games.

nycdoc999
12-25-05, 12:32 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3035

Stinnett's career #s (he's 35, and a journeyman backup catcher)

.239 .320 .390 .710

Had elbow surgery in 2004, which is the reason he only played in 20 games that year.

Last year he played in 59 games, getting 129 ABs
.248 .317 .419 .736

In 2003, he played in 67 games, and got 186 ABs
.229 .294 .352 .646 in 60 games for Cincy and
.429 .500 .429 .929 in 7 games (and 7 ABs) for Philly


Flaherty's last 2 years, in comparison:

2004: .252 .286 .465 .751
2005: .165 .206 .252 .458

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2662

Exactly 47 games and 121 ABs in both years.

FWIW, Flaherty career numbers:
.252 .290 .377 .667




Posada career:

.269 .375 .469 .844

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3341

Posada's catching WAY too many games - almost 140 per season. If we cut that down to 110-115, he's more likely to remain fresh as the year goes on and not be a liability in the playoffs with the bat.

That being said, it appears that Stinnett's hardly a significant upgrade from John Flaherty.

keithf1
12-25-05, 01:08 AM
Catchers put more wear and tear on their bodies than normal position players. That could be why the held him out of the competition but maybe not. Molina is better than Jorge and 3 years younger but isnt that much of an upgrade. I'd take it though. Molina is the only person the majors slower than Jorge lol. I have heard that Molina handles staffs well and calls a good game but I have no evidence to back that up. This is all probably moot since the article is 5 days old though.

Yankeeah
12-25-05, 03:00 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3035

Stinnett's career #s (he's 35, and a journeyman backup catcher)

.239 .320 .390 .710

Had elbow surgery in 2004, which is the reason he only played in 20 games that year.

Last year he played in 59 games, getting 129 ABs
.248 .317 .419 .736

In 2003, he played in 67 games, and got 186 ABs
.229 .294 .352 .646 in 60 games for Cincy and
.429 .500 .429 .929 in 7 games (and 7 ABs) for Philly


Flaherty's last 2 years, in comparison:

2004: .252 .286 .465 .751
2005: .165 .206 .252 .458

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2662

Exactly 47 games and 121 ABs in both years.

FWIW, Flaherty career numbers:
.252 .290 .377 .667




Posada career:

.269 .375 .469 .844

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3341

Posada's catching WAY too many games - almost 140 per season. If we cut that down to 110-115, he's more likely to remain fresh as the year goes on and not be a liability in the playoffs with the bat.

That being said, it appears that Stinnett's hardly a significant upgrade from John Flaherty.

In a back-up catcher, all I want is someone who can call a solid game and play good defense and can hit at a .225 pace. I was fine with Flaherty, even though his offense sucked. I loved his swing and his irish music. I am ok with Stinnet as a back-up, but if we're going to be split Posada's time with another catcher, I would rather it be someone better.

homer2931
12-25-05, 12:37 PM
Catchers put more wear and tear on their bodies than normal position players. That could be why the held him out of the competition but maybe not. Molina is better than Jorge and 3 years younger but isnt that much of an upgrade. I'd take it though. Molina is the only person the majors slower than Jorge lol. I have heard that Molina handles staffs well and calls a good game but I have no evidence to back that up. This is all probably moot since the article is 5 days old though.

Molina is not better than posada

keithf1
12-25-05, 01:09 PM
Molina is not better than posada
I'm not a big Bengie Molina fan or anything but Posada was pretty bad last season

yanksphan
12-25-05, 01:12 PM
I'd rather get Olivo than Molina. At least he can be a part of the future...

Yankees1962
12-25-05, 04:01 PM
I'm not a big Bengie Molina fan or anything but Posada was pretty bad last season
Posada wasn't as bad as some around here made him out to be. The lynch mob mentality is strong on this board.

YankeePride1967
12-25-05, 04:05 PM
Posada wasn't as bad as some around here made him out to be. The lynch mob mentality is strong on this board.

Problem is, people use the Posada of a few years ago too strongly as the barometer. I don't know how many other catchers in the rest of the league are as good.

mycroft
12-25-05, 04:22 PM
Posada wasn't as bad as some around here made him out to be. The lynch mob mentality is strong on this board.

Yup, every year we don't win the WS is gets worse and it seems this year it gets more and more ridiculous. At least Mel isn't getting kicked around anymore.

goin for 27
12-25-05, 04:32 PM
Posada wasn't as bad as some around here made him out to be. The lynch mob mentality is strong on this board.

True, BUT.

I agree that Posada was not that bad as far as catcher go, but he posted his lowest slugging totals in 5 years, lowest OBP in 5 years, and lowest OPS in 5 years.

So though not terrible for his position, certainly very poor for Posada.

I see him in a steep decline moving forward, and would love a Molina type if it is possible.

ring403
12-25-05, 04:33 PM
It would be nice if the Yankees could find a way to prevent Posada's $12 million option for 2007 from kicking in, but Molina doesn't really seem like a fit because of the dollars and years he's going to command, and the fact that he isn't likely to go to a team where he won't be the every day catcher.

whalers
12-25-05, 04:52 PM
I see him in a steep decline moving forward, and would love a Molina type if it is possible.

I dont understand why people would want to go after Molina. Sure his offensive stats are nice and he plays good defense but he would most likely command a 4 year contract. That would leave the Yankees in a similar situation at the end of his contract by carrying and overpaid over the hill catcher.

TheScooter
12-25-05, 05:39 PM
At this stage,Molina is going to have to lower his demands.He is not getting the type of contract he thought he was going to sign.The Mets offered Molina $6 million per and he didn't think that was enough.When the Mets landed Paul LoDuca,Molina was shocked and left without any suitors.The Angels kicked him to the curb

homer2931
12-25-05, 05:46 PM
True, BUT.

I agree that Posada was not that bad as far as catcher go, but he posted his lowest slugging totals in 5 years, lowest OBP in 5 years, and lowest OPS in 5 years.

So though not terrible for his position, certainly very poor for Posada.

I see him in a steep decline moving forward, and would love a Molina type if it is possible.

Molina at 31 is poised for a collapse too.

ieddyi
12-25-05, 06:24 PM
At this stage,Molina is going to have to lower his demands.He is not getting the type of contract he thought he was going to sign.The Mets offered Molina $6 million per and he didn't think that was enough.When the Mets landed Paul LoDuca,Molina was shocked and left without any suitors.The Angels kicked him to the curb


He might be interested in a 1 year type deal to shwo he can still prduce and hope for a better contract. WE should explore any option that causes Posadas option not to vest. Paying him 12M on top of the 13M we're paying him this year would be absurd.
I just don't see him bouncing back

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-25-05, 07:01 PM
He might be interested in a 1 year type deal to shwo he can still prduce and hope for a better contract. WE should explore any option that causes Posadas option not to vest. Paying him 12M on top of the 13M we're paying him this year would be absurd.
I just don't see him bouncing back

A 31 year old declining catcher who last year had his best year offensively is not going to take a one year deal. He IS going to take the contract that offers him the most money over the longest period of time, that will likely be based on past performances rather than future performances. Say even if he decides to sign a one year deal and puts up better numbers (which is highly unlikely), he is going to be another year older and even less teams will want to be involved. 32 for a catcher is ancient...

guidry36
12-25-05, 07:56 PM
I'd rather get Olivo than Molina. At least he can be a part of the future...
Agreed. Nothing short of injury is going to keep Posada from catching enough games to vest his 2007 option. Stinett figures to be an upgrade over Flaherty, but can't be considered a lock to make the roster. Olivo or Nieves( who is out of options) could compete with Stinnett.

The FUTURE
12-25-05, 09:36 PM
Forget him.


Besides the blue jays will give him a 5 year deal or something...:roflmao:

NYDCYankee
12-25-05, 11:25 PM
Agreed. Nothing short of injury is going to keep Posada from catching enough games to vest his 2007 option. Stinett figures to be an upgrade over Flaherty, but can't be considered a lock to make the roster. Olivo or Nieves( who is out of options) could compete with Stinnett.

Tonya Harding oh where have you gone.

JamieMadrox
12-26-05, 12:47 AM
I'd love to see a viable at best catcher replacing Posada for one year for the sole purpose of not having his option kick in...he has by far the most poorly structured contract for the Yankees I've ever seen, but if it takes signing another catcher for $6m and having Posada DH for $12m this year thereby saving $12m next year, it's worth it.

Jersey Yankee
12-26-05, 12:59 AM
Any recent updates on whether or not the Yanks truly are interested in Bengie Molina?

JeffWeaverFan
12-26-05, 02:54 AM
Any recent updates on whether or not the Yanks truly are interested in Bengie Molina?
Nope.

SupaYankee13
12-26-05, 04:02 AM
Forget him.


Besides the blue jays will give him a 5 year deal or something...:roflmao:


:-rofl-: :-rofl-:

OK, could someone explain the $12 option in Posada's contract? I haven't heard of this option....and when does his contract end? I can't wait for THAT day....

surge511
12-26-05, 10:34 AM
:-rofl-: :-rofl-:

OK, could someone explain the $12 option in Posada's contract? I haven't heard of this option....and when does his contract end? I can't wait for THAT day....

To my understanding, Posada needs 63 games at Catcher this season. He then gets a vesting $12 million option for 2007 and a $12 million player option for 2008. So basically, he catches 63 games this year and he gets another $24 million over the next 2 years, and there is nothing the team can do about it.

JDPNYY
12-26-05, 10:41 AM
To my understanding, Posada needs 63 games at Catcher this season. He then gets a vesting $12 million option for 2007 and a $12 million player option for 2008. So basically, he catches 63 games this year and he gets another $24 million over the next 2 years, and there is nothing the team can do about it.

If they were to sign Benjie Molina and make him the regular Catcher and let Posada be the DH/Backup 1Bman they could avoid this.

Yankees1962
12-26-05, 11:05 AM
To my understanding, Posada needs 63 games at Catcher this season. He then gets a vesting $12 million option for 2007 and a $12 million player option for 2008. So basically, he catches 63 games this year and he gets another $24 million over the next 2 years, and there is nothing the team can do about it.
I think your understanding about 2008 isn't correct. If he catches enough games in 2006, his option for 2007 is picked up and he's owed a 4M buyout in 2008 with no guarantee for a contract for the 2008 season.

yankeeman61
12-26-05, 11:10 AM
If they were to sign Benjie Molina and make him the regular Catcher and let Posada be the DH/Backup 1Bman they could avoid this.

I don't know what the Yanks are thinking here, but I would like to see a good defensive 1B versus a converted catcher or OF. Giambi is a lousy glove man who looks to get the vast majority of innings in '06 as it is. I know Posada played 2B in the minor leagues but that was a long time ago. I would rather see J.T. Snow coming in for the late innings and spelling Giambi than Posada or Bernie with a 1B glove on. I haven't seen enough of Phillips at 1B to judge him defensively but even heis probably a better option. It sure looks like Molina is out of serious money suitors. I wouldn't mind seeing Molina and Posada splitting the catching / DH duties. But I would think Giambi and Sheff are also going to need some DH time as well and I think Torre is going to want to use Bernie more frequently there than many others are thinking.

JDPNYY
12-26-05, 11:13 AM
I don't know what the Yanks are thinking here, but I would like to see a good defensive 1B versus a converted catcher or OF. Giambi is a lousy glove man who looks to get the vast majority of innings in '06 as it is. I know Posada played 2B in the minor leagues but that was a long time ago. I would rather see J.T. Snow coming in for the late innings and spelling Giambi than Posada or Bernie with a 1B glove on. I haven't seen enough of Phillips at 1B to judge him defensively but even heis probably a better option. It sure looks like Molina is out of serious money suitors. I wouldn't mind seeing Molina and Posada splitting the catching / DH duties. But I would think Giambi and Sheff are also going to need some DH time as well and I think Torre is going to want to use Bernie more frequently there than many others are thinking.

I didn't suggest that this was what the Yankees were thinking. I was merely pointing out a way the Yankees could avoid overpaying Posada in the future.

yankeeman61
12-26-05, 11:56 AM
I didn't suggest that this was what the Yankees were thinking. I was merely pointing out a way the Yankees could avoid overpaying Posada in the future.

Yeah that makes sense from the Yanks perspective for sure. It would be a pimp job to Posada but a business decision nonetheless. I just hope they don't see him as a 1B to solve the problem. They would be better off unloading the contract altogether if that were even possible.

JDPNYY
12-26-05, 12:02 PM
Yeah that makes sense from the Yanks perspective for sure. It would be a pimp job to Posada but a business decision nonetheless. I just hope they don't see him as a 1B to solve the problem. They would be better off unloading the contract altogether if that were even possible.

That... will be impossible.

BJG
12-26-05, 12:06 PM
I think your understanding about 2008 isn't correct. If he catches enough games in 2006, his option for 2007 is picked up and he's owed a 4M buyout in 2008 with no guarantee for a contract for the 2008 season.

That is my understanding as well. Basically, the $12M in 2007 becomes gaurenteed and a $12M club option with the $4M buyout is applied to 2008.

BJG
12-26-05, 12:15 PM
If they were to sign Benjie Molina and make him the regular Catcher and let Posada be the DH/Backup 1Bman they could avoid this.

I don't think so. Bengie doesn't catch very much, certainly not as much as Posada has traditionally caught. Since becoming the regular catcher in 2000, Molina has caught the following number of innings: 1092, 782, 1014, 950, 762, and 853. In the same time frame, Posada has caught: 1182, 1112, 1191, 1165, 1102, and 1077. Molina gets hurt and wears down. Unless you think that Stinnett is going to pick upt that slack, then having Bengie Molina isn't going to keep Posada from getting in 63 games at catcher.

Enoch
12-26-05, 01:40 PM
Posada wasn't as bad as some around here made him out to be. The lynch mob mentality is strong on this board.

I think your comments are half-right/half-wrong. Offensively, he was still pretty solid. He was more inconsistent than in years past and his BA dropped some points......but he still hit for power and did a decent job driving in runs.

It was defensively that he killed me last year. He couldn't catch a ball that hit the dirt on a throw home, and his past balls always seemed to hurt in the worst moments. That said, we could do far worse than Posada behind the plate in 06.

longtimeyankeefan
12-26-05, 02:11 PM
I think your understanding about 2008 isn't correct. If he catches enough games in 2006, his option for 2007 is picked up and he's owed a 4M buyout in 2008 with no guarantee for a contract for the 2008 season.

As reported in the NY Daily News (last paragraph) - http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/363838p-309841c.html


But assuming they're unable to find a deal, the Bombers may be stuck with Posada. The Yanks would be able to pay him a $4 million buyout after next season if he doesn't start 330 games at catcher between 2004-06, but he's already at 249; making matters worse, if Posada reaches that plateau and 2007 becomes guaranteed, then Posada receives a player option for 2008.

BJG
12-26-05, 02:33 PM
As reported in the NY Daily News (last paragraph) - http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/363838p-309841c.html

Articles at the time of the signing indicate only that Posada gets $4M in 2008 for a buyout if the option vests and make no indication that the option becomes a player's option. I wouldn't be surprised if the Daily News screwed this up a bit, as they seem to be the only original source for this news (with some sites updating their salary data as a result of the article, but not before it).

Yankees1962
12-26-05, 04:17 PM
As reported in the NY Daily News (last paragraph) - http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/363838p-309841c.html
Since, the Daily News is the only source of this information I'm not buying it. Even the Yankees during the escalating salary era, aren't dumb enough to give a 31 year old catcher, basically a seven year contract. Actually, I'm having trouble with them giving him a six year one, but seven years is stretching it beyond my own belief. I think Borden meant to say buyout instead of player option for 2008.

Jasbro
12-26-05, 05:17 PM
As reported in the NY Daily News (last paragraph) - http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/363838p-309841c.html

Didn't John Olerud retire? The article in this link is more than a month and a half old...

AMYanks
12-26-05, 05:24 PM
Jorge Posada c
5 years/$51M (2002-06), plus $12M 07 club option



$15M signing bonus ($1.5M in 02, $2M in 03, $3M in 04, $4M in 05, $4.5M in 06)
02:$4M, 03:$5M, 04:$6M, 05:$8M, 06:$9M, 07:$12M club option ($4M buyout)
07 option guaranteed with a total of 330 games as a catcher from 2004 to 2006
if option is exercised, Posada receives the buyout in 2008
Posada has right to opt out after 2004 season
1 year/$4.05M (2001), avoided arbitration 1/02
drafted 1990 (24- )
agents: Alan Nero, Luis Espinel
ML service: 8.085

guidry36
12-26-05, 06:52 PM
Jorge Posada: 5-Year worth 51M- + receives a 15M signing bonus paid over 5 years ( paid 1.5M '02, 2M '03, 3M '04, 4M '05, 4.5M '06)- + he will make 4M in 2002, in 2003- 5M, in 2004- 6M and in 2005- 8M and in 2006- 9M- + the deal includes a Team Option for 2007 worth 12M or a 4M buyout- + he Can void deal after 2004- + if he catches 330 games between 2004 and 2006, his 2007 option becomes guaranteed and a Player Option for 2008 is added Agents: Alan Nero and Luis Espinel Service Time: 8.085

guidry36
12-26-05, 06:57 PM
Jorge Posada c
5 years/$51M (2002-06), plus $12M 07 club option


$15M signing bonus ($1.5M in 02, $2M in 03, $3M in 04, $4M in 05, $4.5M in 06)
02:$4M, 03:$5M, 04:$6M, 05:$8M, 06:$9M, 07:$12M club option ($4M buyout)
07 option guaranteed with a total of 330 games as a catcher from 2004 to 2006
if option is exercised, Posada receives the buyout in 2008
Posada has right to opt out after 2004 season
1 year/$4.05M (2001), avoided arbitration 1/02
drafted 1990 (24- )
agents: Alan Nero, Luis Espinel
ML service: 8.085

This is confusing. I remember seeing the newsday article.....I believe the post from AMYanks was from Cot's......the one I posted that mentioned the 2008 option was from mlb4u.com. Hardball Dollars doesn't list a 2008 option. 2 sources say there is a 2008 option....2 sources say there isn't a 2008 option.

longtimeyankeefan
12-26-05, 07:04 PM
This is confusing. I remember seeing the newsday article.....I believe the post from AMYanks was from Cot's......the one I posted that mentioned the 2008 option was from mlb4u.com. Hardball Dollars doesn't list a 2008 option. 2 sources say there is a 2008 option....2 sources say there isn't a 2008 option.

It doesn't surprise me that Hardball Dollars does not list a 2008 option because, as we debate this question, there is no 2008 option. The 2008 option only exists if the 2007 option vests.

Still, I agree that this whole deal is confusing. I wish someone could locate a copy of his contract so we know what is truth and what is fiction.

guidry36
12-26-05, 07:29 PM
Posada is not the same player he was a few years ago. His #'s are slipping, he never was one of the better defensive catchers, and it would be for the best, obviously, if he is only signed through 2007. That being said, why is there so much Posada bashing?? Yes, the #'s are slipping, but I wonder how many people realize what he has done for the team. Here is the list of Yankee Catchers who spent at least a decade as the primary Catcher.....Berra, Dickey, Howard, Munson and Posada. There was a backup C or 2 that spent 10 years with the team, but all the records are held by those 5. That doesn't change the fact that Posada is being overpaid this year and last year, but it does mean that I don't mind him getting the $$ that's coming to him. Everyone who has posted on this thread wonders why his deal was backloaded so heavily.....Posada wasn't a free agent at the time of the deal....the Yankees weren't bidding against another team. This isn't the only backloaded contract.... assuming Posada's deal runs through 2007, it will be a 6-year $63 mil. deal. Giambi gets $19 mil. in 06', 21.5 mil. in 07', 21.0 mil. in 08', plus a $5 mil. buyout (or 22.0 mil. team option in 2009). It would be better in these cases to frontload the contract....at least there would be the option of trading the player towards the end of the deal. Posada starts far more games than the average C..... hopefully he will get more rest this year, which could help his #'s. A younger backup can be brought in next year....someone to groom as Posada's replacement.....but Torre, like it or not, is loyal to his players.....Posada will be here at least through 2007.

Stryder2929
01-04-06, 11:06 PM
doesnt it make sense to try to sign molina to a 1 year deal now?

on the field, molina is a better catcher and can help us; not to mention give us a legitimate dh in posada and molina alternating
financially, this may prevent posadas 07 option from vesting which is pretty big

DontHateOnNumber2
01-04-06, 11:11 PM
doesnt it make sense to try to sign molina to a 1 year deal now?

on the field, molina is a better catcher and can help us; not to mention give us a legitimate dh in posada and molina alternating
financially, this may prevent posadas 07 option from vesting which is pretty big

We have enough players that can DH. Odds are Molina would only sign a 1 year deal if it's larger (money-wise and possibly in years) than the others that may be offered by other clubs.

keithf1
01-04-06, 11:11 PM
I don't think Molina and Posada together would work.

Stryder2929
01-05-06, 12:51 PM
1) youre joking about the DH thing right? We do not have a regular DH without taking one of our fielders and putting them in DH, which then means we put a crap bat out into the field. This team needs someone like durazo, bernie CANNOT be dh.

2) look at all the interest out there for molina.. the jays arent making a move and no one else has even expressed interest, molina would take what hes offered if hes smart.

Sam18
01-05-06, 01:33 PM
Molina and Posada are about the same defensivley at this point in their careers.

ryanthe13th
01-05-06, 01:52 PM
Signing Molina at this point is pointless.

8 IF(Giambi, Phillips, Cano, Cairo, Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, Stinett)
4 OF(Matsui, Damon, Sheffield, Bernie)
5 SP(Johnson, Mussina, Wang, Chacon, Pavano)
8 RP(Rivera, Farnsworth, Dotel, Villone, Myers, Sturtze, Wright, Small)

Etheir Small will start in AAA, or Bubba will be DFA. At this point, I see Crosby getting the boot over Small.

shutout
01-05-06, 03:01 PM
doesnt it make sense to try to sign molina to a 1 year deal now?

on the field, molina is a better catcher and can help us; not to mention give us a legitimate dh in posada and molina alternating
financially, this may prevent posadas 07 option from vesting which is pretty big

I agree. I think it would be great for the Yankees to sign Molina. Bengie is, imho, a very good catcher. I'm not a big fan of Posada these days. He isn't 'up there' anymore imho of course.

longtimeyankeefan
01-05-06, 03:17 PM
Signing Molina at this point is pointless.

8 IF(Giambi, Phillips, Cano, Cairo, Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, Stinett)
4 OF(Matsui, Damon, Sheffield, Bernie)
5 SP(Johnson, Mussina, Wang, Chacon, Pavano)
8 RP(Rivera, Farnsworth, Dotel, Villone, Myers, Sturtze, Wright, Small)

Etheir Small will start in AAA, or Bubba will be DFA. At this point, I see Crosby getting the boot over Small.

For the 748,932,457th time - Small is not going to AAA. He has no options left.

And, why are you carrying 13 pitchers for goodness sake.

Yankeeah
01-05-06, 06:05 PM
Signing Molina at this point is pointless.

8 IF(Giambi, Phillips, Cano, Cairo, Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, Stinett)
4 OF(Matsui, Damon, Sheffield, Bernie)
5 SP(Johnson, Mussina, Wang, Chacon, Pavano)
8 RP(Rivera, Farnsworth, Dotel, Villone, Myers, Sturtze, Wright, Small)

Etheir Small will start in AAA, or Bubba will be DFA. At this point, I see Crosby getting the boot over Small.


8 Relief pitchers? Yikes.

Mr. Mxylsplk
01-05-06, 06:05 PM
8 Relief pitchers? Yikes.
No kidding. I don't think we're set until we have 12.

ryanthe13th
01-05-06, 06:08 PM
For the 748,932,457th time - Small is not going to AAA. He has no options left.

And, why are you carrying 13 pitchers for goodness sake.

I am not, why don't you ask the Yankees? This isn't a projected lineup for me, it's what we currently have on the 25 Man.

Since Small has no more options left, it looks like Bubba may be headed for a DFA.

Yankeeah
01-05-06, 06:15 PM
Where exactly are you seeing a 25 man roster?

ryanthe13th
01-05-06, 06:28 PM
Where exactly are you seeing a 25 man roster?

Okay, being realistic, this would be the 25 Man roster if the season started today.

Yankeeah
01-05-06, 06:30 PM
Okay, being realistic, this would be the 25 Man roster if the season started today.

That's a very unfair statement. The season isn't starting today, so the Yankees have time to get another bench player/RFer. Not to mention they would never have 13 pitchers, at any time on the 25 man roster.

ryanthe13th
01-05-06, 06:39 PM
That's a very unfair statement. The season isn't starting today, so the Yankees have time to get another bench player/RFer. Not to mention they would never have 13 pitchers, at any time on the 25 man roster.

We're not talking about trading for a RFer or a bench player, we're talking about signing Molina.

All I did was point out that signing Molina, whose a free agent, is pointless because we'd only be adding and not subtracting to a growing roster. If we get a RFer or bench player, we'll be trading for it to decrease the number of guys we have. If we sign Molina, whose going to leave? That makes 2 guys you have to cut, and isn't there a certian date you have to wait to to release free agents you just signed?

Sous Sheff
01-05-06, 06:49 PM
5 SP(Johnson, Mussina, Wang, Chacon, Pavano)
8 RP(Rivera, Farnsworth, Dotel, Villone, Myers, Sturtze, Wright, Small


That's a very unfair statement. The season isn't starting today, so the Yankees have time to get another bench player/RFer. Not to mention they would never have 13 pitchers, at any time on the 25 man roster.

Dotel for one, won't be on the opening day roster.

Jersey Yankee
01-05-06, 06:49 PM
... and isn't there a certian date you have to wait to to release free agents you just signed?
From what I remember, you must wait a year before dealing an FA who doesn't have a no-trade clause (NTC) in his contract.

Yankeeah
01-05-06, 06:52 PM
We're not talking about trading for a RFer or a bench player, we're talking about signing Molina.

All I did was point out that signing Molina, whose a free agent, is pointless because we'd only be adding and not subtracting to a growing roster. If we get a RFer or bench player, we'll be trading for it to decrease the number of guys we have. If we sign Molina, whose going to leave? That makes 2 guys you have to cut, and isn't there a certian date you have to wait to to release free agents you just signed?

I wasn't talking about Molina. You posted a roster that had 8 relief pitchers. I said it wouldn't happen, you said thats on the roster. All I was saying is that the Yankees won't have 13 pitchers on the 25 man roster. Probably not even 12

longtimeyankeefan
01-05-06, 09:20 PM
I am not, why don't you ask the Yankees? This isn't a projected lineup for me, it's what we currently have on the 25 Man.

Since Small has no more options left, it looks like Bubba may be headed for a DFA.

Prior to April 1 (or whatever the first day of the season is), there is no such thing as a 25-man roster - only the 40-man roster.

The Yankees do not currently have an open spot on the 40-man according to MLB.com, so any move such as signing Molina (I am not advocating this move, just citing such an example) would require opening a spot on the roster.

ShaneTravis
01-08-06, 05:02 PM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spken084580479jan08,0,2597452.column?coll=ny-sports-print

Free advice

"The Yankees should seriously look into signing Bengie Molina, which would allow them to shift Jorge Posada to designated hitter and relieve them from the 2007 option (for $12 million) that vests if Posada plays 63 games behind the plate this year."

Yankees1962
01-08-06, 06:10 PM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spken084580479jan08,0,2597452.column?coll=ny-sports-print

Free advice

"The Yankees should seriously look into signing Bengie Molina, which would allow them to shift Jorge Posada to designated hitter and relieve them from the 2007 option (for $12 million) that vests if Posada plays 63 games behind the plate this year."
I see Davidoff is reading this forum again.;)

WashingtonYankee
01-08-06, 06:48 PM
Are you serious? I mean give me a freaking break... Molina in pinstripes? Hell no.

Yankeeah
01-08-06, 07:02 PM
Are you serious? I mean give me a freaking break... Molina in pinstripes? Hell no.

There aren't enough pinstripes in the world to make Bengie look slim.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-08-06, 07:03 PM
It really wouldn't be a horrible idea to sign Molina to a two year deal, it would be nice to save a bunch on not having to exercise the 12 million dollar option. That said, I don't think Molina is going to sign anything short term...

38Special
01-08-06, 07:09 PM
I'm willing to bet that Bernie puts up a higher OPS than Bengie in 06

Yankeeah
01-08-06, 07:16 PM
It really wouldn't be a horrible idea to sign Molina to a two year deal, it would be nice to save a bunch on not having to exercise the 12 million dollar option. That said, I don't think Molina is going to sign anything short term...

At this point, Bengie will probably just sign a one year deal and hope he can raise his stake for next year. He gambled and lost. I don't see a team giving him a long deal.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-08-06, 07:20 PM
At this point, Bengie will probably just sign a one year deal and hope he can raise his stake for next year. He gambled and lost. I don't see a team giving him a long deal.

I don't think his offensive numbers are going to get any better than last year and he is only getting older. I guess the only chance he gets a better deal is if the market next year for catchers is even weaker...

38Special
01-08-06, 07:50 PM
I don't think his offensive numbers are going to get any better than last year and he is only getting older. I guess the only chance he gets a better deal is if the market next year for catchers is even weaker...


Jorge Posada (Team Option)
Damian Miller (Team + Player option)
Henry Blanco
Doug Mirabelli
Javier Valentin
Vance Wilson
Chris Widger
Paul Bako
Kelly Stinnett
Gregg Zaun
Gary Bennett
Ken Huckaby
Todd Greene
Einar Diaz
Raul Casanova
John Flaherty
Mike DiFelice
Alberto Castillo
Todd Pratt
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Eddie Perez
Ivan Rodriguez (Poss. Void Option)
Rod Barajas
Javy Lopez
Mike Redmond



....same crap.

Yankeeah
01-08-06, 08:37 PM
I don't think his offensive numbers are going to get any better than last year and he is only getting older. I guess the only chance he gets a better deal is if the market next year for catchers is even weaker...

If you think that, then why would a team sign him long term?

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-08-06, 08:44 PM
If you think that, then why would a team sign him long term?

Because teams are stupid and often give out contracts based on a player's past...

Third Stream
01-08-06, 10:20 PM
Cheers to all! (I'm new to posting, though I've been visiting this site for awhile...)
OK. Get Molina if possible. We wouldn't have to give up a pick for him. I know catchers age faster, but he is still only 31... He's significantly younger than Po, better defensively, and he'll help keep that ghastly vesting option from kicking in... Also, if they make Po a full time DH, then Bernie can truly shift into Sierra's old role where he belongs.
Oh yeah, Molina's 2005 numbers with 2 outs and RISP: .361 AVG. with a .542 SLG
Posada in 2005 with 2 outs and RISP: .100 AVG with a .167 SLG