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View Full Version : Is Chone Figgins attainable???



ANSKYcm
12-10-05, 09:12 PM
Is Chone Figgins attainable? I have no idea what his status is concerning whether or not the Angels would trade him, but I think he would be a perfect fit for CF. He's fast, above average defensively, and a great leadoff hitter. His 62 SB's would add a new dimension to our team and would provide more RBI for GIambi, Sheff, Matsui etc. Could we make a package of propects and Posada (paying a large portion of his salary of course) that would entice LAA to trade him?

J. Posada + $, S. Henn, S. Proctor, B. Gardner for C. Figgins??????

J. Posada + $, M. Cabrera, S. Henn for C. Figgins??????

RhodeyYankee2638
12-10-05, 09:17 PM
No chance

38Special
12-10-05, 09:23 PM
hahaha what? we're trading 4 players for chone figgins?

In Mo I Trust
12-10-05, 09:29 PM
Not really worth addressing, but, a .352 OBP for a leadoff hitter isn't great. Players of his ilk are overrated, nor would this ridiculous package work. Next.

Buzah!
12-10-05, 09:35 PM
yikes.

ryanm1058123
12-10-05, 09:45 PM
Figgins == very overrated

destro
12-10-05, 09:52 PM
"Hi, My name is fanboy fantasy GM... Every player I see have something to do with a Yankee loss should be on MY TEAM!"

NewEraYanks2527
12-10-05, 10:14 PM
"Hi, My name is fanboy fantasy GM... Every player I see have something to do with a Yankee loss should be on MY TEAM!"
I think that is pretty accurate. And to answer the question: no chance on Figgins.

harkode2002
12-10-05, 10:40 PM
WOW - you're willing to trade 4 decent ballplayers for figgins? Propose something reasonable next time.

rightfielder21
12-10-05, 10:47 PM
"Hi, My name is fanboy fantasy GM... Every player I see have something to do with a Yankee loss should be on MY TEAM!"


So true...

JeffWeaverFan
12-10-05, 10:51 PM
Figgins == very overrated
Yep... (By the way, no, he is not attainable - it's not going to happen).

ANSKYcm
12-10-05, 11:31 PM
"Hi, My name is fanboy fantasy GM... Every player I see have something to do with a Yankee loss should be on MY TEAM!"


Hey I'm too stupid to make any comments that have any intelligence to them. I provide no sort of value to any of the conversations on this board, and I am the epitome of a nonvaluable member to the content of nyyfans.com :2thumbs:

ANSKYcm
12-10-05, 11:35 PM
"Hi, My name is fanboy fantasy GM... Every player I see have something to do with a Yankee loss should be on MY TEAM!"

And also, with a comment like that...you should know that he problably had the worst series of any Angel in the ALDS this year, so your statement of getting guys who beat us has no legitimacy.

dabomb2045
12-10-05, 11:36 PM
just cuz Figgins hit like .900 against us in the regular season and steals bases like crazy...doesnt mean we want to trade 4 people for him

ANSKYcm
12-10-05, 11:43 PM
just cuz Figgins hit like .900 against us in the regular season and steals bases like crazy...doesnt mean we want to trade 4 people for him

and why not? the Yanks are shopping Posada, and with Molina still available, they could easily ship Posada to the cather-less Angels and then sign Molina for a less lucrative price. We have all seen what Proctor can do (not much), so basically we're trading Henn and a guy we just drafted for Chone Figgins. Our CF situation is more than solved, and our catching position improves. Also, the option for 2007 on Posada is avoided. In addition, Molina right now has very few teams interested in him, which means his price has and will go down. We could problably sign him and pay some of Posada's salary and still be spending equal or less money at the catcher position.

krystl
12-10-05, 11:53 PM
Chone Figgins is a cool name. :)

Snatch Catch
12-10-05, 11:54 PM
Chone Figgins is right around league average and horribly overvalued by the idiot sportswriteers out there. I'd rather have Jason Michaels, whose skills will actually translate better to the Yankees lineup.

dabomb2045
12-10-05, 11:55 PM
and why not? the Yanks are shopping Posada, and with Molina still available, they could easily ship Posada to the cather-less Angels and then sign Molina for a less lucrative price. We have all seen what Proctor can do (not much), so basically we're trading Henn and a guy we just drafted for Chone Figgins. Our CF situation is more than solved, and our catching position improves. Also, the option for 2007 on Posada is avoided. In addition, Molina right now has very few teams interested in him, which means his price has and will go down. We could problably sign him and pay some of Posada's salary and still be spending equal or less money at the catcher position.


why on earth would the Angels want Posada?

Snatch Catch
12-10-05, 11:56 PM
why on earth would the Angels want Posada?


Why on earth would the Yankees want Figgins?

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-10-05, 11:58 PM
and why not? the Yanks are shopping Posada, and with Molina still available, they could easily ship Posada to the cather-less Angels and then sign Molina for a less lucrative price. We have all seen what Proctor can do (not much), so basically we're trading Henn and a guy we just drafted for Chone Figgins. Our CF situation is more than solved, and our catching position improves. Also, the option for 2007 on Posada is avoided. In addition, Molina right now has very few teams interested in him, which means his price has and will go down. We could problably sign him and pay some of Posada's salary and still be spending equal or less money at the catcher position.

1) Figgins is very overrated I dont give a **** about stolen bases I care more about OBP for a leadoff hitter which figgins has at a .350 mark which is 9 hitter material(when you have no power) then after that isnt SB but SB%(how aften he steals a base without getting caught) I dont know about figgins on defense but if i had to bet I would bet that its overrated too.

2)Molina is overrated and has had one good year. He is basically the catching version of renteria, Pavano and Wright. His defense is vastly overrated. I bet Posada has a better year than Molina in 2006.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-10-05, 11:59 PM
Chone Figgins is right around league average and horribly overvalued by the idiot sportswriteers out there. I'd rather have Jason Michaels, whose skills will actually translate better to the Yankees lineup.

Yup Michaels would give solid defense great obp and would be good for the number 2 spot, which would give Alex 2 guys who get on almost 40% of the time in front of him.

Evil Empire
12-11-05, 12:03 AM
Chone's a good player but you're willing to give up an All-Star Catcher, and three "prospects" for him?

ANSKYcm
12-11-05, 12:06 AM
1)

2)Molina is overrated and has had one good year. He is basically the catching version of renteria, Pavano and Wright. His defense is vastly overrated. I bet Posada has a better year than Molina in 2006.

Do me a favor and compare their fielding percentages for the past however many years you want. Compare the percentage of base stealers they throw out. Compare their offensive numbers this past year. Compare their age. Compare their number of games played and who is gonna continue to wear down. Then come back and make a knowledgable comment.

ANSKYcm
12-11-05, 12:08 AM
Chone's a good player but you're willing to give up an All-Star Catcher, and three "prospects" for him?

Im willing to give up an overpaid, declining catcher to get a better one, and I would hardly consider Henn a prospect and especially Proctor. Calling Proctor a propect is a joke.

Evil Empire
12-11-05, 12:09 AM
Im willing to give up an overpaid, declining catcher to get a better one, and I would hardly consider Henn a prospect and especially Proctor. Calling Proctor a propect is a joke.


I was generalizing thus the use of the quotation marks. And which catcher are we getting in return?

Edit: Oh, you mean signing Molina.

njdhockey
12-11-05, 12:17 AM
J. Posada + $, S. Henn, S. Proctor, B. Gardner for C. Figgins??????

J. Posada + $, M. Cabrera, S. Henn for C. Figgins??????
Unless the Yankees pay almost all of Posada's contract, then I doubt any team would want him. We pretty much know that Proctor is not going to be a good pitcher and I doubt the Angels have much use for him. Henn can be valuable if used right as a lefty out of the pen. Cabrera will probably be a decent major league hitter and can fill the gap while Jackson, Gardner, Henry, Poterson, etc, etc. develop in the minors. Gardner is expected to make it to the majors quick and can be a real helpful threat to steal bases and be a pesky player. I would not do any of those trades because the Yankees would be giving up way too much for one guy, let alone it is Chone Figgins.

In Mo I Trust
12-11-05, 12:23 AM
1) Figgins is very overrated I dont give a **** about stolen bases I care more about OBP for a leadoff hitter which figgins has at a .350 mark which is 9 hitter material(when you have no power) then after that isnt SB but SB%(how aften he steals a base without getting caught) I dont know about figgins on defense but if i had to bet I would bet that its overrated too.

2)Molina is overrated and has had one good year. He is basically the catching version of renteria, Pavano and Wright. His defense is vastly overrated. I bet Posada has a better year than Molina in 2006.

Figgins stole at a 78.5% clip, which is pretty good.

ojo
12-11-05, 12:39 AM
dunno how anybody can call chone figgins overrated.

plays all 3 OF positions, 2b, ss, 3b...and each position at league average or above...gets paid dirt to do it, too.

Evil Empire
12-11-05, 12:40 AM
dunno how anybody can call chone figgins overrated.

plays all 3 OF positions, 2b, ss, 3b...and each position at league average or above...gets paid dirt to do it, too.
I don't really think that Molina is better than Posada, therefore we have no better replacement for him. JMHO.

Snatch Catch
12-11-05, 12:50 AM
dunno how anybody can call chone figgins overrated.

plays all 3 OF positions, 2b, ss, 3b...and each position at league average or above...gets paid dirt to do it, too.


He's overrated offensively.

Very much so.

dabomb2045
12-11-05, 01:14 AM
He's overrated offensively.

Very much so.


he only had a .352 OBP last season. He happens to kill the Yanks, so some people think he is some great player...when he really isnt. Although he was invisible in the playoffs.

I do wish we had someone like him on our team though....at least in terms of his versatility. Anyone who suggests trading Posada for him is insane....and Molina is incredibly overrated.

harkode2002
12-11-05, 02:16 AM
Cashman is not naive enough to trade 4 for 1. I'm in Anaheim - Figgins is not that great. I see a lot of their games, and he rises to face us, but other that stealing bases, his defense is spotty whereever he plays, and he has ZERO power.

If you keep this up we'll rename you FigginsMist.

Vin
12-11-05, 03:23 AM
What I'm wondering is, why aren't we going for Bengie Molina. He wasn't offered arbitration so he can probably be had for 2-3 years=25-30 million. I'd rather have him than Hor-hey.

ChewieTobbacca
12-11-05, 05:04 AM
.352 OBP isn't great but it's better than league average and keep in mind the 05 Yankees had a team OBP of .355 which means he'd fit in the lineup fine (in fact keeping it consistent is better than having one guy at .370 and the next guy dropping to .320)

He's really useful as a player because he plays every position other than C and P pretty much but the end point remains, he's not attainable

Jaeho
12-11-05, 05:54 AM
What I'm wondering is, why aren't we going for Bengie Molina. He wasn't offered arbitration so he can probably be had for 2-3 years=25-30 million. I'd rather have him than Hor-hey.

Um...because we are already paying a ton for a catcher and Posada is untradeable?

I am sure Molina can be had for 3 years and $30 million. That is because no GM in their right mind would give him that contract. Ramon Hernandez just signed for 4 years at $27.5 million. Giving Molina $10 million a year would be criminal.

Irabu's Son
12-11-05, 07:53 AM
Let's not knock Figgins... he played a very important part of my fantasy team "Matsui's Pubes", winning my league by a landslide.

destro
12-11-05, 09:38 AM
Hey I'm too stupid to make any comments that have any intelligence to them. I provide no sort of value to any of the conversations on this board, and I am the epitome of a nonvaluable member to the content of nyyfans.com :2thumbs:


Stupid? I'm not the one who is trying to things we can just give up Posada for Figgins!

Anyway, don't worry the season will start soon and you can get your rotoleague going and have figgins, bonds and griffey as part of your SUPA TEAM.

nyctalopia
12-11-05, 11:51 AM
Is Chone Figgins attainable? I have no idea what his status is concerning whether or not the Angels would trade him, but I think he would be a perfect fit for CF. He's fast, above average defensively, and a great leadoff hitter. His 62 SB's would add a new dimension to our team and would provide more RBI for GIambi, Sheff, Matsui etc. Could we make a package of propects and Posada (paying a large portion of his salary of course) that would entice LAA to trade him?

J. Posada + $, S. Henn, S. Proctor, B. Gardner for C. Figgins??????

J. Posada + $, M. Cabrera, S. Henn for C. Figgins??????
what? wait ... let me think ... NO. who are you?

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 11:54 AM
Do me a favor and compare their fielding percentages for the past however many years you want. Compare the percentage of base stealers they throw out. Compare their offensive numbers this past year. Compare their age. Compare their number of games played and who is gonna continue to wear down. Then come back and make a knowledgable comment.

1)Fielding percentage? Very flawed stat
2)Why compare their hitting for just this past year? Molina has only had one good year, that is called a career contract year. He is this version of Beltre except not as young.
3)Even at this age Posada is still one of the best offensive catchers in the game, until he proves otherwise Molina is just another one year wonder. Just like Renteria, Pavano, etc.
4)I bet Posada even with another year in decline will be better than Molina and his career high .336 obp. In fact Posada last year was just as good if not better Molina last year and that was Molinas only good year. Their ops for 2005 is equal but Posada's come more from OBP which imo is a more important stat than slugging. Either way Molinas 2005 abberation was at best only as good as posadas 2005.

Posada 2005: .262/.352/.430/.782
Posada career: .269/.375/.469/.844

Molina 2005:.295/.336/.446/.782
Molina career: .273/.309/.397/.706

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 11:57 AM
.352 OBP isn't great but it's better than league average and keep in mind the 05 Yankees had a team OBP of .355 which means he'd fit in the lineup fine (in fact keeping it consistent is better than having one guy at .370 and the next guy dropping to .320)

He's really useful as a player because he plays every position other than C and P pretty much but the end point remains, he's not attainable

SO because our team has a .355 obp we should go after players with lower OBP to be leadoff hitters? Its league average but the league average hitter isnt a good lead off hitter. We all know torre would have him lead off when he should be a 9 hitter. Michaels wont cost nearly as much and would give around a .390 obp perfect for the 2 spot behind jeter.

BJG
12-11-05, 12:10 PM
Michaels wont cost nearly as much and would give around a .390 obp perfect for the 2 spot behind jeter.

For the same reason that Chone Figgins shouldn't take at bats away from better hitters by batting leadoff, Michaels should not take at bats away from AROD, Giambi, Matsui, and Sheffield by batting second.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 12:14 PM
For the same reason that Chone Figgins shouldn't take at bats away from better hitters by batting leadoff, Michaels should not take at bats away from AROD, Giambi, Matsui, and Sheffield by batting second.

Then Jeter shouldnt be taking bats away from A-rod and Sheff and Giambi either. By your logic A-rod should be leading off Giambi batting second and Sheff third. I actually wouldnt be opposed to that but the first 2 spots in the order are generally focused on getting on base so the sluggers in the 3-6 spots can drive them in. Michaels and Jeter both get on base a lot and Sheff, GIambi ROdriguez are good at driving guys in.

ryanthe13th
12-11-05, 02:32 PM
This is a moot point, Figgins will not be going anywhere for quite sometime. He fits Mike Soisca's bill of a hard-working, speedy, and talented ball-player. He'd be a great addition to the Yanks despite what people in this thread say, but unfortunately it isn't in the cards.

Panamaniac42
12-11-05, 02:48 PM
What I'm wondering is, why aren't we going for Bengie Molina. He wasn't offered arbitration so he can probably be had for 2-3 years=25-30 million. I'd rather have him than Hor-hey.

:clap: sweet, let's give an obese 31-year-old catcher with chronic leg problems 2 years at 12.5 million a year or 3 years at 10 million a year. Of course he can "be had" for that lol. Anyone can "be had" if you bid against yourself and overpay like a complete moron.

It's bad enough the person who started this thread has no clue...do we really need to pile on top of his garbage?

BJG
12-11-05, 02:57 PM
Then Jeter shouldnt be taking bats away from A-rod and Sheff and Giambi either. By your logic A-rod should be leading off Giambi batting second and Sheff third.

They would probably score more runs over the course of the season if they did that.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 03:44 PM
Cashman would give up a lot more than Henn, Proctor et. al. to get the Angels to take on Posada. Everyone talks about the $12 million that kicks in if he gets 83 starts at catcher (or whatever it is). They forget the Yanks are also on the hook for a $4 million buyout in 2008. In other words, the Yanks will have to pay $25 million for two years of Jorge behind the plate. The Posada contract is the worst of the bad deals the Yanks did in the past half-decade.

BJG
12-11-05, 04:03 PM
Cashman who give up a lot more than Henn, Proctor et. al. to get the Angels to take on Posada. Everyone talks about the $12 million that kicks in if he gets 83 starts at catcher (or whatever it is). They forget the Yanks are also on the hook for a $4 million buyout in 2008. In other words, the Yanks will have to pay $25 million for two years of Jorge behind the plate. The Posada contract is the worst of the bad deals the Yanks did in the past half-decade.

Derek Jeter will be making $20M when he is 37. Let's be realistic.

nahzo
12-11-05, 04:08 PM
I'm actually not against acquiring Figgins-type players for utility roles. The problem is that Figgins is ridiculously overrated by just about every media outlet in sports, and probably in the front offices around the league. Also, utility players with speed are a dime a dozen and not worth dealing 4 players for, no matter how many positions they play.

Although, we do need to get Posada off the books somehow in the next year or so.

IMissBillyM
12-11-05, 04:26 PM
Did I just read this right?..You want to give up all that for Figgins?...An average ballplayer who just lives off us?...Come on!..Get real!...That'd be one ugly trade..

ANSKYcm
12-11-05, 04:39 PM
[QUOTE=destro]Stupid? I'm not the one who is trying to things we can just give up Posada for Figgins!

I'm really not sure how to read this sentence...but I'm sure whatever it is, its proving my point. ;)

Spiker101
12-11-05, 04:47 PM
Derek Jeter will be making $20M when he is 37. Let's be realistic.

Jeter has at least shot of being a quality player at age 37, and in any case damn well will be worth his salary in marketing terms. I don't know why people have a hard time understanding that Jeter isn't paid because of what he does on the field but what he generates in revenues. It's show biz.
Matsui is the same deal on a smaller scale. Or do you think our LFer is a $13 million a year player.
Don't get me wrong, I like Posada and believe he remains one of the best offensive catchers in the game, but he's not worth $12 million and the Yanks would dearly love to get out from under that contract. Cashman has virtually stated that publicly.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 04:53 PM
Although, we do need to get Posada off the books somehow in the next year or so.

It's not going to happen, unless we take on someone else's problem contract, and personally I perfer the devil I know to one I don't.

New Murderer's Row
12-11-05, 05:11 PM
posada is one of the better offensive catchers in the league, is still average defensively, and would be the hottest catcher on the FA market if he was available right now. i wouldn't take anyone outside of victor martinez, joe mauer, or jeff mathis for him. maybe ivan rodriguez.
WHY should the yankees get rid of him?
if the yankees want to replace him then they can trade for a catching prospect or draft someone themselves.

and as far as figgins is concerned, he'd be better in CF than crosby as a #9 hitter, but as many have said he's overvalued.

USF Yankee
12-11-05, 05:23 PM
Do me a favor and compare their fielding percentages for the past however many years you want. Compare the percentage of base stealers they throw out. Compare their offensive numbers this past year. Compare their age. Compare their number of games played and who is gonna continue to wear down. Then come back and make a knowledgable comment.

I don't get what the obsession people have with Molina, and why so down on Posada. I mean sure, he's not what he used to be, but he is STILL a good catcher. you want FPCT, CS%, and their offense numbers?? OK.

Posoda: 34
2005: CS% .302, FPCT: .996, E: 3. PB: 8, BAA: .262/.352/844, 19hr, 71 rbi, 66 BB.

Molina: 31
2005: CS% .313, FPCT: .996, E: 3, PB:10, BAA: .295/.336/782, 15hr, 69 rbi, 27 BB.

And this is comparing one of Posada's worst years to one of Molina's best. Molina is also gonna be 32 next year and is an overweight catcher (5'11"-225 compared to Posada 6'2"-205) wich means his knees are more likely to give and will NOT repeat what he did last year. While Posada will probably decline a bit from last, he should be more likely to have a good season than Molina.

nahzo
12-11-05, 05:23 PM
It's not going to happen, unless we take on someone else's problem contract, and personally I perfer the devil I know to one I don't.
Agreed. Although I would certainly scour every reasonable possibility.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 05:24 PM
and as far as figgins is concerned, he'd be better in CF than crosby as a #9 hitter, but as many have said he's overvalued.

It's pretty hard to be overvalued if you're making $400,000 a season.

nahzo
12-11-05, 05:26 PM
posada is one of the better offensive catchers in the league, is still average defensively, and would be the hottest catcher on the FA market if he was available right now. i wouldn't take anyone outside of victor martinez, joe mauer, or jeff mathis for him. maybe ivan rodriguez.
WHY should the yankees get rid of him?
if the yankees want to replace him then they can trade for a catching prospect or draft someone themselves.

and as far as figgins is concerned, he'd be better in CF than crosby as a #9 hitter, but as many have said he's overvalued.
Yankee-loving, sentimental reasons aside, even though he will probably be above average for a year and maybe more, his contract will be insanely large compared to the expected production.

porsche986
12-11-05, 05:26 PM
...in any case damn well will be worth his salary in marketing terms. I don't know why people have a hard time understanding that Jeter isn't paid because of what he does on the field but what he generates in revenues. It's show biz.

I think you have this wrong. Jeter is paid what he does on the field and his contract was relative to the one signed by ARod, not because he looks good in a Visa commercial. Jeter's marketing has very little effect on the Yankees because any T-Shirts etc. that are sold is spread out amongst all other clubs and does not directly go to the Yankees. It has been proven time and again that people come to see a winning team not a specific person. I can't recall the specific pitcher who was beeing studied (Johnson or Clemens), but that it showed there was no difference of crowd attendence when Johnson/Clemens pitched or when they didn't pitch. In other words, if the Yankees suddenly become a terrible team less people will come to the stadium reguardless if Jeter is on the team or not.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 05:45 PM
I think you have this wrong. Jeter is paid what he does on the field and his contract was relative to the one signed by ARod, not because he looks good in a Visa commercial. Jeter's marketing has very little effect on the Yankees because any T-Shirts etc. that are sold is spread out amongst all other clubs and does not directly go to the Yankees. It has been proven time and again that people come to see a winning team not a specific person. I can't recall the specific pitcher who was beeing studied (Johnson or Clemens), but that it showed there was no difference of crowd attendence when Johnson/Clemens pitched or when they didn't pitch. In other words, if the Yankees suddenly become a terrible team less people will come to the stadium reguardless if Jeter is on the team or not.

A few years back we went through a debate on this forum after I went to a Sunday game at the Stadium, a rare treat since I live out west, and noticed an incredible number of prepubescent girls in the stands, screaming, not for handsome Joe Torre, but for Jeter. I estimated there must have been 2,000-3,000 of these girls. And I'm pretty sure they didn't have clue one as to who was in first that afternoon. I've gone to a lot of major league games and I've never seen anything like it anywhere else. We had a debate here on how much additional revenue the teeneyboopers generate and if I remember right came to the conclusion that it would take a full-blown marketing study to find out. But I bet it's a good piece of change. I haven't back to the Stadium since, so I don't know whether that youthful adulation continues. But you cannot argue that for at least a time, Jeter had an appeal that no other player in the game had. That appeal put bucks in George's wallet.

nyctalopia
12-11-05, 05:57 PM
It's pretty hard to be overvalued if you're making $400,000 a season.
he is overvalued because some people on this board think he is worth 4 players in a trade.

BJG
12-11-05, 06:08 PM
Jeter has at least shot of being a quality player at age 37, and in any case damn well will be worth his salary in marketing terms. I don't know why people have a hard time understanding that Jeter isn't paid because of what he does on the field but what he generates in revenues. It's show biz.
Matsui is the same deal on a smaller scale. Or do you think our LFer is a $13 million a year player.
Don't get me wrong, I like Posada and believe he remains one of the best offensive catchers in the game, but he's not worth $12 million and the Yanks would dearly love to get out from under that contract. Cashman has virtually stated that publicly.

1. Matsui is able to generate revenue much more directly than Jeter. For example, before Matsui, Yankee games were not televised in Japan. Now they all are. This has allowed the Yankees to sell signage to Japanese companies. This is direct revenue for the Yankees. Unlike merchandise or marketing revenue, it does not have to be shared and can singularly be attributed to Matsui.

2. Relative to other corner OFs, Matsui is substantially less overpayed than Jeter relative to other SS.

3. Even with AROD, the market has severely readjusted itself. He is an 8 year/112M player...14M a year because that's what the Yankees are willing to pay him. Over the course of those same 8 years, Jeter will make $160M in signing bonus and salary. AROD $14M, Jeter $20M (or $18.9 for the whole deal).

4. Jeter is not exactly a bastion of old player skills. He isn't Juan Pierre, but where does he go from SS? At the back end of this deal, he doesn't hit enough to be a 3B, a 1B, a DH, a RF, a LF and doesn't field enough to play up the middle. At least with a guy like Giambi, you can hope they don't break down and DH them. This is the biggest problem with giving him that long a deal.

5. The back of the Posada deal aint great, it's nothing compared to teh back of the Jeter deal.

It was a dumb deal, especially within the context of Steinbrenner refusing to sign him long term while he was still arb eligible.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 06:18 PM
he is overvalued because some people on this board think he is worth 4 players in a trade.

I don't think that's exactly what they're saying. I think they're arguing that if you give up Posada, the financial savings would be so great that you could fill in the holes with better players and still have Figgins. In any case, it's kinda of silly. The Angels would never do this deal without the Yanks sending Posada over in a Brinks truck.

BJG
12-11-05, 06:25 PM
The other thing that bothers me with this is looking at these 2 years in vacuum. The Yankees backloaded Posada's deal for a financial reason. This is the price you are paying for only having to give him $5.5, $7M, and $9M the first 3 years of the deal.

The average value of this deal is still $10.2M, and that seems entirely reasonable to me. And remember, by backloading, you are essentially taking an interest free loan, so the true value is probably a little less.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 06:53 PM
1. Matsui is able to generate revenue much more directly than Jeter. For example, before Matsui, Yankee games were not televised in Japan. Now they all are. This has allowed the Yankees to sell signage to Japanese companies. This is direct revenue for the Yankees. Unlike merchandise or marketing revenue, it does not have to be shared and can singularly be attributed to Matsui.

2. Relative to other corner OFs, Matsui is substantially less overpayed than Jeter relative to other SS.

3. Even with AROD, the market has severely readjusted itself. He is an 8 year/112M player...14M a year because that's what the Yankees are willing to pay him. Over the course of those same 8 years, Jeter will make $160M in signing bonus and salary. AROD $14M, Jeter $20M.

4. Jeter is not exactly a bastion of old player skills. He isn't Juan Pierre, but where does he go from SS? At the back end of this deal, he doesn't hit enough to be a 3B, a 1B, a DH, a RF, a LF and doesn't field enough to play up the middle. At least with a guy like Giambi, you can hope they don't break down and DH them. This is the biggest problem with giving him that long a deal.

5. The back of the Posada deal aint great, it's nothing compared to teh back of the Jeter deal.

It was a dumb deal, especially within the context of Steinbrenner refusing to sign him long term while he was still arb eligible.

1. Yep.

2. I not sure what you're getting at here. Last season nine leftfielders had a OPS higher than Matsui's. Of the nine only Manny was paid more. Interestingly enough, three of the nine made less than a million. Jeter finished fourth in OPS, and his salary was the highest. Tejada finished third and was paid $12 million. What any of it means is beyond me.

3. ARod's actual average annual salary through the 2010 season is $16 million. Of course the market for players has declined in the last three years, but it's up some this offseason and if the CBA is extended next year, it'll be up a bunch next year because the luxury tax will be waived. It'll probably never get back up to the peak 2000-2001 but you never know. In any case, it's my argument that Jeter is paid the way he's paid because he's the "face" the fanchise. It's a marketing/public relations consideration as much as a economically rational assessment of his baseball skills.

4.What the Sam Hill are old player skills? Anyway, Jeter sooner or later, will be sent to where he should be playing in 2006, centerfield. Jeter also could be a candidate for a super-utility role that some people are considering for Garciaparra. I guess I just have more confidence in Jeter's ability to remain useful than you you do. He's a Hall of Fame athlete. And so far there is absolutely no evidence his skills are waning.

5. Posada is not a Hall of Fame athlete. He's been a terrific piece of a championship-caliber team and I think he remains a good offensive catcher. But at $12 milliion he's about 50 percent overpaid.

porsche986
12-11-05, 07:16 PM
A few years back we went through a debate on this forum after I went to a Sunday game at the Stadium, a rare treat since I live out west, and noticed an incredible number of prepubescent girls in the stands, screaming, not for handsome Joe Torre, but for Jeter. I estimated there must have been 2,000-3,000 of these girls. And I'm pretty sure they didn't have clue one as to who was in first that afternoon. I've gone to a lot of major league games and I've never seen anything like it anywhere else. We had a debate here on how much additional revenue the teeneyboopers generate and if I remember right came to the conclusion that it would take a full-blown marketing study to find out. But I bet it's a good piece of change. I haven't back to the Stadium since, so I don't know whether that youthful adulation continues. But you cannot argue that for at least a time, Jeter had an appeal that no other player in the game had. That appeal put bucks in George's wallet.

With all due respect, your argument that correlation implies causation is incorrect. Those people wearing Jeter shirts are there first and foremost because the team is winning. Jeter is just ancillary to that fact. If Jeter wasn't there, I am sure they would be wearing ARod t-shirts or someone else. I am not saying there are some people who don't go to see just Jeter, but those numbers are inconsequential compared to what the team draws when winning versus when they are not. Tell me honestly if you think those same girls would be there if Jeter played in KC. You can do all the studies you wish, but I would be willing to make a serious claim that if Jeter decided to hang it up tomorrow, the Yankees would still draw nearly the same next year (I say nearly because of yearly fluctuations). Matsui, as BJG stated is a whole different story.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 07:25 PM
With all due respect, your argument that correlation implies causation is incorrect. Those people wearing Jeter shirts are there first and foremost because the team is winning. Jeter is just ancillary to that fact. If Jeter wasn't there, I am sure they would be wearing ARod t-shirts or someone else. I am not saying there are some people who don't go to see just Jeter, but those numbers are inconsequential compared to what the team draws when winning versus when they are not. Tell me honestly if you think those same girls would be there if Jeter played in KC. You can do all the studies you wish, but I would be willing to make a serious claim that if Jeter decided to hang it up tomorrow, the Yankees would still draw nearly the same next year (I say nearly because of yearly fluctuations). Matsui, as BJG stated is a whole different story.

Let me respectfully disagree with the idea that Jeter is ancillary to the Yanks winning. Like I said I haven't been to the Stadium for a few years now, and maybe those squealing girls no longer show up. But when I was there last it was like Paul McCartney heading to the plate in 1964 and those girls would've known the difference between a box score and box lunch. Maybe they're gone now but look around the stands in other ball parks and note how many girls 12-15 old you see. For a time at least, Jeter attracted a large contingent of non-baseball fans. Matsui does the same kind of thing, which is why he's getting the extra money. Winning by the way does not necessarily put the fannies in the seats as they used to say. See Atlanta.

BJG
12-11-05, 08:08 PM
1. Yep.

2. I not sure what you're getting at here. Last season nine leftfielders had a OPS higher than Matsui's. Of the nine only Manny was paid more. Interestingly enough, three of the nine made less than a million. Jeter finished fourth in OPS, and his salary was the highest. Tejada finished third and was paid $12 million. What any of it means is beyond me.

3. ARod's actual average annual salary through the 2010 season is $16 million. Of course the market for players has declined in the last three years, but it's up some this offseason and if the CBA is extended next year, it'll be up a bunch next year because the luxury tax will be waived. It'll probably never get back up to the peak 2000-2001 but you never know. In any case, it's my argument that Jeter is paid the way he's paid because he's the "face" the fanchise. It's a marketing/public relations consideration as much as a economically rational assessment of his baseball skills.

4.What the Sam Hill are old player skills? Anyway, Jeter sooner or later, will be sent to where he should be playing in 2006, centerfield. Jeter also could be a candidate for a super-utility role that some people are considering for Garciaparra. I guess I just have more confidence in Jeter's ability to remain useful than you you do. He's a Hall of Fame athlete. And so far there is absolutely no evidence his skills are waning.

5. Posada is not a Hall of Fame athlete. He's been a terrific piece of a championship-caliber team and I think he remains a good offensive catcher. But at $12 milliion he's about 50 percent overpaid.


1. n/a

2. What I'm saying is that while Matsui might be overpayed, he's overpayed less than Jeter. Simply saying, "Matsui is overpayed too" doesn't really mean much. The issue is not that they are both overpayed, it's that Jeter is overpayed more.

3. The Rangers picked up $67M of the remaining $179M on AROD's deal. (179-67)/8=14.

4. If Jeter weren't 'the face of the franchise', someone else would be. It's a bad argument, as others have been pointing out, as winning breeds attendance not the names on the back of the jersey. If the Yankess won just as many games last year without Jeter there, they would have had the same attendance.

5. Old player skills are walking, hitting for power, etc. as oppossed to young player skills like hitting for average, running, etc. The ship on Jeter moving to center is going to sail pretty soon. Either way, there's a reason there aren't any good 37 year old centerfielders, which is the problem with giving the contract to Jeter. SS, 2B, and CF are all young player's positions. By the end of this deal, given where he is now, I can't see him being good at any of those positions. Given inevitable offensive decline (barring someting Bondsesque yet enhancement free), I don't see his bat being enough for the corners or DH. What are you left with?

6. But the Yankees aren't really paying Posada $12M now any more than they were paying him $5M when the contract started. His value in their minds was $10.2 over the life of the deal. You have to therefore take the whole deal, and everything you got out of it over the life of the deal, into account. And again, the point of deferring money or backloading a contract is to help the team. Focusing on those backloaded dollars when the reason they are there was actually good for the Yankees is a bit narrow minded.

BJG
12-11-05, 08:12 PM
Let me respectfully disagree with the idea that Jeter is ancillary to the Yanks winning. Like I said I haven't been to the Stadium for a few years now, and maybe those squealing girls no longer show up. But when I was there last it was like Paul McCartney heading to the plate in 1964 and those girls would've known the difference between a box score and box lunch. Maybe they're gone now but look around the stands in other ball parks and note how many girls 12-15 old you see. For a time at least, Jeter attracted a large contingent of non-baseball fans. Matsui does the same kind of thing, which is why he's getting the extra money. Winning by the way does not necessarily put the fannies in the seats as they used to say. See Atlanta.

There's no difference between those girls and the Dominican flag wavers when Pedro pitches or the Coneheads etc., etc. Oh, and every market will bear what it can bear. If the fans aren't going to show up in Atlanta for a playoff game, they aren't going to show up regardless of whether or not there is a 'face' of the franchise. What will happen, though, is if the team starts losing, attendance will go down.

And once again, Matsui putting fannies in the seat has absolutely nothing to do with why you can overpay him. It is indirect, unsupportable income that is subject to revenue sharing anyway.

#9
12-11-05, 10:51 PM
This whole thread started on the premise of crazy talk. That being said, Figgins is a fun player to watch, kept me glued to the Angels on MLB plus all summer...

NYDCYankee
12-11-05, 10:53 PM
Does this thread really exist?