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PoughVirginiaYankee
12-08-05, 09:13 PM
Well, this article pretty muchs sums it all up.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2252946

I mean, there's not really a spot on the Yanks, and I doubt the O's would ever trade him to us. I guess for you Jeter to CF posters, this would be an ideal scenario for such a move?
But of more concern, as the article insinuiates, is the Red Sox new need for a shortstop. Would the O's trade him there? I guess we can just hope that the very talented Tejeda does not find himself in Boston.

bostonyankeefan
12-08-05, 09:15 PM
If the Sox knew about this before doing the deal with Atlanta, that deal starts to make a lot more sense. I do not want to see Tejada with the Sox.

nyyterp
12-08-05, 09:16 PM
Well, this article pretty muchs sums it all up.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2252946

I mean, there's not really a spot on the Yanks, and I doubt the O's would ever trade him to us. I guess for you Jeter to CF posters, this would be an ideal scenario for such a move?
But of more concern, as the article insinuiates, is the Red Sox new need for a shortstop. Would the O's trade him there? I guess we can just hope that the very talented Tejeda does not find himself in Boston.

i am kinda worried. Manny for Tejada could potentially happen. then the O's will be able to trade one of the their OF for an arm. the O's are not getting that much better by the trade, but the red sox are.

nyyterp
12-08-05, 09:18 PM
i got it!!! the yankees should get tejada and move jeter to CF. i would do it just to piss the red sox off.

p.s. i should learn to read the whole post before replying. sorry OP

JDPNYY
12-08-05, 09:20 PM
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=91669

Yankeeah
12-08-05, 09:20 PM
Not that it would happen, but if we got Tejada, I'd imagine he'd go to center. Again, not that it would happen.

-tz
12-08-05, 09:22 PM
Another step towards the All Shortstop Team! :D

32elston
12-08-05, 09:22 PM
i got it!!! the yankees should get tejada and move jeter to CF. i would do it just to piss the red sox off.

p.s. i should learn to read the whole post before replying. sorry OP ......and then hire Buckner as the first base coach just for series in Fenway.

PoughVirginiaYankee
12-08-05, 09:51 PM
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=91669

Yeah - I saw the thread only after I started this one sorry! But I guess maybe it should/could be in Hot Stove too?

CTyankeefan
12-08-05, 10:06 PM
Manny for Tejada? That would be a devastating for the yankees. A happy Manny and a happy Tejada.

I wonder if Baltimore would make that trade?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-08-05, 10:08 PM
Manny for Tejada? That would be a devastating for the yankees. A happy Manny and a happy Tejada.

I wonder if Baltimore would make that trade?

Manny playing in that bandbox is sick. I dont think the Orioles would hesitate for that offer, I dont know if Manny would allow the trade to go through thou

flymick24
12-08-05, 10:09 PM
can he play CF?

CelerinoSanchez
12-08-05, 11:47 PM
Cripes, I can see it now......Manny and some dough for Tejada. Just what we need.

dabomb2045
12-09-05, 12:02 AM
Tejada is maybe the most overrated player in MLB....let Boston get him for Manny, I dont care

scull567
12-09-05, 12:05 AM
Tejada is maybe the most overrated player in MLB....let Boston get him for Manny, I dont care

VORP the past 4 years

2002: 66.4
2003: 58.1
2004: 73
2005: 70

..and when you factor in defense, you've got a pretty damned good player. I'd say he's more underrated than overrated.

nnysiny
12-09-05, 12:06 AM
i wouldnt be worried about Manny playing in that "bandbox"(thats a myth) than i would Tejada hitting everything off the Monster. you know his defense wouldnt clam up like Renteria's either

RhodyYanksFan
12-09-05, 12:06 AM
If the O's don't want to trade with us, why would they want to trade with the Sox? You don't make trades to improve your rivals.

jyjjy
12-09-05, 12:16 AM
Tejada is one of the best players in baseball. If he would be willing to play 2nd I'd offer the O's Cano and Wang.

dabomb2045
12-09-05, 12:17 AM
VORP the past 4 years

2002: 66.4
2003: 58.1
2004: 73
2005: 70

..and when you factor in defense, you've got a pretty damned good player. I'd say he's more underrated than overrated.


he gets alot of hype for a player who doesnt draw walks, has never had one season over a .900 OPS and makes alot of errors on routine plays

terminator
12-09-05, 12:18 AM
If the O's don't want to trade with us, why would they want to trade with the Sox? You don't make trades to improve your rivals.

Have the Yankees tried to make any trade with the O's recently? Just curious ..

The Sox would be giving the O's Manny - so both of them would be giving something valuable up.

Matsui55
12-09-05, 12:20 AM
Tejada isn't going to the Yanks, Mets or Red Sox- the O's won't take the battering they will get from their fans for that.

Two options.

One- they tell Tejada to shut up and play

Two- they trade him to the Angels for O. Cabrera and a couple prospects. The Angels want a big bat badly. The O's get a good SS and several other position players to boot.

4degrees
12-09-05, 04:11 AM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.
- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.
- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.

BobbyMurcerFan
12-09-05, 04:42 AM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.
- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.
- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.This post SHOULD be against Community Standards.

CalYankeeFan
12-09-05, 04:52 AM
can he play CF?

That was my question....or if not, convert to 2nd and try Cano out there..

CalYankeeFan
12-09-05, 04:55 AM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

.



:wtf: The string of AL East Championships, Pennants and World Series started with him as a rookie.....what do you mean we haven't won?

10 Years, 9 Division Titles, 1 Wildcard, 6 Pennants, 4 World Series Titles, 982-639 record.

On second thought, he has won only one World Series MVP award....yeah, let him go.:-whistle-

CalYankeeFan
12-09-05, 04:58 AM
Cripes, I can see it now......Manny and some dough for Tejada. Just what we need.

Yup, then Brian inquires and its "Oh, we want Cano, Wang, Jeter, and Pay his contract,"

NYDCYankee
12-09-05, 04:58 AM
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

What do you consider winning?

NYDCYankee
12-09-05, 05:12 AM
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/09/tejada_asks_out_are_stars_aligning/

wavespike3
12-09-05, 05:18 AM
Tejada is one of the best players in baseball. If he would be willing to play 2nd I'd offer the O's Cano and Wang.

doubtful but salavating

wavespike3
12-09-05, 05:23 AM
this is according to that globe article, "Replace Ramírez with Tejada, and the Sox become the best team in baseball." Wow now its official sox fans are the most naive on the planet. Must he forgot thet still have nobody else good if their infield if this happens, a shaky outfield, no closer, a sub-par pen, a injury prone new ace, and an aging rotation in that may go into shambles any day. So apparently two sure things in Ortiz and Tejada gives you the best team in baseball.

articles like that but especially this one from our own NY papers baffle me....
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/373280p-317340c.html

StatenIslandYankee
12-09-05, 05:39 AM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.
- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.
- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.

Who's this guy at the Parade?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/2000/10/30/jeter_letterman_ap/t1_jeter_ap-01.jpg

loveyankees
12-09-05, 06:11 AM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.
- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.
- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.

You should be banned from this forum for posting stuff just to piss people off

NYDCYankee
12-09-05, 06:11 AM
this is according to that globe article, "Replace Ramírez with Tejada, and the Sox become the best team in baseball." Wow now its official sox fans are the most naive on the planet. Must he forgot thet still have nobody else good if their infield if this happens, a shaky outfield, no closer, a sub-par pen, a injury prone new ace, and an aging rotation in that may go into shambles any day. So apparently two sure things in Ortiz and Tejada gives you the best team in baseball.

articles like that but especially this one from our own NY papers baffle me....
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/373280p-317340c.html

Manny is better than Tejada. Edes should look at last years numbers. I was alarmed by the line as well.

surge511
12-09-05, 06:49 AM
While Manny for Tejada would make their team and chemistry better, the overall talent on the team obviously would go down.

Yankees1962
12-09-05, 07:07 AM
Manny is better than Tejada. Edes should look at last years numbers. I was alarmed by the line as well.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought Harper's article was questionable to say the least.

dabomb2045
12-09-05, 07:07 AM
Manny is better than Tejada. Edes should look at last years numbers. I was alarmed by the line as well.


Tejada has never posted an OBP over .349 and an OPS over .894....Manny is indeed the better player

Spiker101
12-09-05, 07:12 AM
Two options.

One- they tell Tejada to shut up and play

Two- they trade him to the Angels for O. Cabrera and a couple prospects. The Angels want a big bat badly. The O's get a good SS and several other position players to boot.

Two options.

One: They tell Tejada to shut up and play.

Two: They tell Tejada to shut the f* up and play.

Unless Peter Angelos has had a personalty transplant, he's going to make Tejada's life miserable for opening his mouth.

Spiker101
12-09-05, 07:13 AM
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought Harper's article was questionable to say the least.

Me too. Harper is out to lunch. Again.

SODM
12-09-05, 07:23 AM
Tejada has never posted an OBP over .349 and an OPS over .894....Manny is indeed the better player

Tejada is not as great an offensive player as the top hitters in the league (Manny, Ortiz, A-Rod, Pujols, Bonds, etc..), but his production from the SS position makes his contract ($12 mil per) very reasonable.

pedromartinezfan
12-09-05, 07:36 AM
Miguel Tejada is far from overrated. .304/.349/.515 from the SS position is extremely valuable. In fact, in 2005, it produced 1.4 additional runs above replacement against SS than Manny Ramirez and his .292/.388/.594 line did against LF.

The last two years, Miguel Tejada has had great WARP3 seasons, 11.8 and 9.5. Manny Ramirez has had seasons that came completely from the bat 7.8 wins and 8.1 wins. Miguel Tejada fields his position very well. This position happens to be the most important position on the field, other than catcher. Last year he was 14 runs above in the field, and this year he was slightly below average, but that is still far more valuable from a SS than 10 runs below from a LF.

Tejada over Manny is a no brainer.

YankeeFan1
12-09-05, 07:51 AM
Now Red Sox fans are arguing that Tejada is better than Manny? Okay. Whatever gets Manny out of Boston works for me. Let's hope the Red Sox agree.

Prickly Pete
12-09-05, 08:25 AM
Tejada has never posted an OBP over .349 and an OPS over .894....Manny is indeed the better player
If they were both designated hitters, that argument would make sense.

bostonyankeefan
12-09-05, 08:36 AM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.
- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.
- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.

Everyone has a right to air his opinion, but this one is absurd.

NYDCYankee
12-09-05, 08:42 AM
Miguel Tejada is far from overrated. .304/.349/.515 from the SS position is extremely valuable. In fact, in 2005, it produced 1.4 additional runs above replacement against SS than Manny Ramirez and his .292/.388/.594 line did against LF.

Tejada over Manny is a no brainer.

First: Noone said Miggy was overrated I just think he isn't as good as Manny. Looking at the OPS numbers is evidence of that. I would want Miggy on my team no doubt, but there are concerns (I would be concerned about steroids). All things being equal (same age, same price) I would pick Manny over Miggy if I wanted to start a team.

NYDCYankee
12-09-05, 08:43 AM
If they were both designated hitters, that argument would make sense.

Second: Given this idea, AROD should be the MVP hands down over Ortiz and there never should have been a debate.

gdn
12-09-05, 09:03 AM
The guy that wrote the Boston Globe column is smoking something and it ain't cigarettes.

From a Yankee fan point of view, I'd rather they have Tejada than Manny. While numbers may not show the whole picture, Manny is just a monster at the plate, while Tejada is not as fear inducing...

YankeePride1967
12-09-05, 09:03 AM
I think both Yankee fans and Sox fans need a bit of a wake up call. IF Tejada is even traded, it will very likely be out of the AL East.

CelerinoSanchez
12-09-05, 09:03 AM
Tejada is one of the best players in baseball. If he would be willing to play 2nd I'd offer the O's Cano and Wang.


Cano & Wang and who else? Those two wouldn't be nearly enough. Hey, I have an idea. Why don't we sign Garciaparra for CF, trade for Tejada to play 2B and sign Ripken, Ozzie Smith, Bucky Dent, and Barry Larkin for the bench? You can never have enough shortstops you know.

CTyankeefan
12-09-05, 09:12 AM
Miguel Tejada is far from overrated. .304/.349/.515 from the SS position is extremely valuable. In fact, in 2005, it produced 1.4 additional runs above replacement against SS than Manny Ramirez and his .292/.388/.594 line did against LF.

The last two years, Miguel Tejada has had great WARP3 seasons, 11.8 and 9.5. Manny Ramirez has had seasons that came completely from the bat 7.8 wins and 8.1 wins. Miguel Tejada fields his position very well. This position happens to be the most important position on the field, other than catcher. Last year he was 14 runs above in the field, and this year he was slightly below average, but that is still far more valuable from a SS than 10 runs below from a LF.

Tejada over Manny is a no brainer.

???????

I don't know what all those numbers mean. Who do the sox get in left field then?

All I know is Manny is a better hitter than Tejada. The offense is more potent with Manny in there instead of Tejada. I do this trade for the Sox because Manny wants out. Tejada is a great hitter, but Manny is in a class with Bonds, Pujols and Arod. Manny has done it better for longer.

I guess you can make a case for any trade if you want to. But if you are talking pure hitter, no one is better than Manny.

38Special
12-09-05, 09:20 AM
Let the Red Sox make that trade. Tejada tanked the 2nd half of 05 and has a ................ty attitude. Tejada is not close to the hitter that Manny is, and is owed plenty of money over more years. Considering Nixon has been falling apart physically, they really need 3 outfielders and still a first baseman

Chambliss
12-09-05, 09:30 AM
Calm down, people. The 'net seems to be abuzz today with Tejada to Boston rumors. Now, where exactly do these come from? Crack-smoking SOSHers? If everyone wants a treat, go and read Gordon Edes' stellar piece of journalism in today's Boston Globe about Tejada to Boston. It reads more like a Sox fan's wet dream than anything that could even be classified as "journalism."


Can't Manny put the kibosh on any trade because he's 10/5 guy? Really, why would he accept going to Baltimore?

ieddyi
12-09-05, 09:31 AM
Tejada is "the heart and soul of the team" and that team rolled over at the end of last year. Tejadas play was a big part of the reason-. He mailed it in during a bunch of games and made crucial errors in the last month.
Just Miggy being Miggy. Leaders aren't frontrunners

YankeePride1967
12-09-05, 09:32 AM
Calm down, people. The 'net seems to be abuzz today with Tejada to Boston rumors. Now, where exactly do these come from? Crack-smoking SOSHers? If everyone wants a treat, go and read Gordon Edes' stellar piece of journalism in today's Boston Globe about Tejada to Boston. It reads more like a Sox fan's wet dream than anything that could even be classified as "journalism."


Can't Manny put the kibosh on any trade because he's 10/5 guy? Really, why would he accept going to Baltimore?

I'm sure as the day progresses the brain surgeons there will turn it from a Manny for Tejada trade rumor to a Gabe Kapler for Tejada trade rumor as Baltimore will be desperate to unload Miguel.

YankeeFan1
12-09-05, 09:52 AM
I had a good laugh over Edes' comment: "Replace Ramírez with Tejada, and the Sox become the best team in baseball." It is Red Sox Bizarro World this morning.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/09/tejada_asks_out_are_stars_aligning/

mrbawm
12-09-05, 09:55 AM
This is ridiculous. Why would the Yankees get Tejada and have two shortstops who are better than Jeter?

wileedog
12-09-05, 09:58 AM
This is ridiculous. Why would the Yankees get Tejada and have two shortstops who are better than Jeter?

Maybe if they get enough shortstops he'll agree to play CF.... ;)

Prickly Pete
12-09-05, 10:11 AM
Tejada is not close to the hitter that Manny is
That's correct. Which one is the better SS?


and is owed plenty of money over more years.
Tejada is owed 4/$54. Manny is owed 3/$57. BFD.


Considering Nixon has been falling apart physically, they really need 3 outfielders and still a first baseman
Yes, needing 3 OFers is a much, much worse situation than needing two OFers and a SS.

jcan411
12-09-05, 10:27 AM
Tejada is maybe the most overrated player in MLB....let Boston get him for Manny, I dont care

Maybe one of the weirdest post I have ever seen one this board

He's great defensively
Has hit over 25 homers since 2000
hits for decent average .280 Career
very good OPS for a SS Career .815
Has played 162 games since 2001 (160 in 2000 and 159 in 1999)
Had 50 doubles last year
Is somewhat hard to SO (only 83 SO)
Makes a few million more than OC and Renteria while making less than Jeter

HOW IS THAT OVERRATED?

I would love, love, love to get this guy and move jeter to center.

jcan411
12-09-05, 10:31 AM
I had a good laugh over Edes' comment: "Replace Ramírez with Tejada, and the Sox become the best team in baseball." It is Red Sox Bizarro World this morning.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/09/tejada_asks_out_are_stars_aligning/

I also disagree but I know what he is saying

Replacing OF production and replacing SS production are very different.

It would be much easier to somewhat replce Manny's production with another outfielder and have a strong SS in tejada, than have Manny and a weak shortstop. There are mostly offensive minded OF but little offensive SS so they would be much stronger in all likelyhood.

mrbawm
12-09-05, 10:35 AM
Tejada is both a superstar defensively and offensively for the SS position. He's fantastic, the Orioles got him for a song relative to his value.

dabomb2045
12-09-05, 10:36 AM
First: Noone said Miggy was overrated I just think he isn't as good as Manny. Looking at the OPS numbers is evidence of that. I would want Miggy on my team no doubt, but there are concerns (I would be concerned about steroids). All things being equal (same age, same price) I would pick Manny over Miggy if I wanted to start a team.


I do think he is overrated...WAY too many people put him in the ARod, Bonds, Manny, Ortiz, Pujols class

he isnt even close

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 10:37 AM
Manny playing in that bandbox is sick. I dont think the Orioles would hesitate for that offer, I dont know if Manny would allow the trade to go through thou

I would imagine that in order for Balto to accept that deal that Bos would have to make up the difference between the two salaries or package in a prospect.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 10:37 AM
Tejada is maybe the most overrated player in MLB....let Boston get him for Manny, I dont care

Based on?

mrbawm
12-09-05, 10:39 AM
I do think he is overrated...WAY too many people put him in the ARod, Bonds, Manny, Ortiz, Pujols class

he isnt even close

As a hitter you have a point. He is way overrated as a hitter especially compared to those guys. Hitting in a great park these past few years and that 155 RBI season probably had a lot to do with that.

However, he is not overrated as a player. He is a complete player who has star ability on the other side of the ball.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 10:41 AM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.

Jeter is the furthest thing from the reason why the Yankees haven't won recently.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 10:45 AM
this is according to that globe article, "Replace Ramírez with Tejada, and the Sox become the best team in baseball." Wow now its official sox fans are the most naive on the planet. Must he forgot thet still have nobody else good if their infield if this happens, a shaky outfield, no closer, a sub-par pen, a injury prone new ace, and an aging rotation in that may go into shambles any day. So apparently two sure things in Ortiz and Tejada gives you the best team in baseball.

articles like that but especially this one from our own NY papers baffle me....
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/373280p-317340c.html

So based on something that an idiot sportswriter, Gordon Edes, says, that officially makes Red Sox fans that most naive on the planet? I don't think a single intelligent Sox fan is content with the current offensive and defensive situations, even if Tejada was traded for Manny.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 10:51 AM
Tejada tanked the 2nd half of 05 and has a ................ty attitude. Tejada is not close to the hitter that Manny is, and is owed plenty of money over more years.

I disagree about Tejada having a sh*tty attitude...he's played in EVERY game since 2001. Compare that to Manny who's played in about 140 games per year in the same timeframe, often sitting out of important games because he's unhappy.

Tejada may be owed a ton of money, but so is Manny.

keithf1
12-09-05, 10:54 AM
who said his defense was good? look at the numbers...his defense is overrated. jeter is better defensively and i hate how everything thinks jeter is just an average shortstop. he makes the big plays and has 2 straight gold gloves. tejada hits for power. that's all he has on jeter. good day.

whalers
12-09-05, 10:57 AM
I really dont see how any GM would trade a player like that to a team in their own division.

goin for 27
12-09-05, 10:57 AM
I do think he is overrated...WAY too many people put him in the ARod, Bonds, Manny, Ortiz, Pujols class

he isnt even close

I don't put him in that class, but he is the best SS in baseball since ARod moved over, and I love Jetes.

The guy is very strong on defense, and has had to carry some weaker offensive teams.

With his current salary structure, he would be a bargain, costing 10M, 12M, 13M, 13M over the next 4 years.

I sincerely hope that he does not go to Boston.

Dr. Gonzo
12-09-05, 11:00 AM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.
- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.
- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.
No trade clause for Jeter, thats it

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 11:01 AM
I really dont see how any GM would trade a player like that to a team in their own division.

Even if you're getting a better player in return in Manny?

whalers
12-09-05, 11:05 AM
Even if you're getting a better player in return in Manny?
I understand that but by giving up tejeda you allow a division rival to fill a gaping hole with one of the best players at that position. It doesnt make sense.

YankClipper5
12-09-05, 11:06 AM
We don't have a need for Tejada and moving Jeter to CF is probably far from a possibility, like it or not he is the face of the Yankees and part of that image is him as the SS. Also, wasting the enormous trade chips it would take to acquire Tejada for a trial run in CF for anyone is not reasonable. Not to mention Baltimore is probably not high on trading their best player within the division. If/when they move him, I am willing to bet it is for young pitching, either some ML ready stud pitching prospects, or straight up for established pitching. Not for a headcase like Manny who, by the way, has expressed no interest in going to Baltimore, so he could easily veto any deal there. The only way I see him landing in the AL East is if Manny is traded for pitching or Stud pitching prospects, who will then need to be flipped to Baltimore. Just seems like there are too many hurdles. While I don't credit the O's front office with much intelligence, they can no longer avoid the glaring weakness they have in their pitching staff.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 11:07 AM
I understand that but by giving up tejeda you allow a division rival to fill a gaping hole with one of the best players at that position. It doesnt make sense.

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but it will essentially be a better trade for BAL. The Sox may fill a hole at SS, but they will create another one, although a much easily filled one, in LF. So the net result of this trade would benefit the O's.

Edit: spelling

SINCE77 2
12-09-05, 11:08 AM
To Tejada, I say too damn bad. Tejada had no problem with them when he took their money in 2004.

whalers
12-09-05, 11:12 AM
Yeah, I see what you're saying, but it will essentially be a better trade for BAL. The Sox may fill a hole at SS, but they will create another one, although a much easily filled on, in LF. So the net result of this trade would benefit the O's.


Sure it would make the O's better but LF like you say is a much easier position to fill than SS. Not to mention that SS is a more important position. Who would the O's get to play SS? I would be very surprised if this trade went down.

YankClipper5
12-09-05, 11:14 AM
Yeah, I see what you're saying, but it will essentially be a better trade for BAL. The Sox may fill a hole at SS, but they will create another one, although a much easily filled on, in LF. So the net result of this trade would benefit the O's.

The O's can get much more value by dealing Tejada for pitching and not do it to the benefit of a division rival that has a huge need. This is an opportunity for Baltimore to close in on the talent gap with the AL east teams ahead of them.

Crosby18
12-09-05, 11:16 AM
I would think the treade would be Miggy for Manny and either Kevin Youklis, Andy Marte, or a pitcher.

ryanthe13th
12-09-05, 11:19 AM
- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.

A-Rod will never replace Jeter as the face of the Yankees. Everyone is always going to remember the kid from Kalamazoo who always gives 110% every game he plays in. Jeter may not be a better offensive player than A-Rod, but he isn't light years behind him.

Jeter - .314 AVG/.386 OBP/.461 SLG/763 RBI/1936 Hits/169 HR
A-Rod - .307 AVG/.385 OBP/.557 SLG/1226 RBI/1901 Hits/429 HR

The two are very similar except in SLG, HR, and obviously RBI's since A-Rod has been a 3-4 spot hitter his entire career.


- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.

Jeter - .975 FPCT, .822 ZR

Tejada - .970 FPCT, .834 ZR

I'd say that they're pretty even. Tejada's ZR is only ,.12 higher than Jeter and does not justify trading him.


- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.

Uh, the Orioles are a mess because Rafael Palmerio is saying Tejada gave him the B12 supplement that made him test positive for steroids. When did Tejada fall off the map? The second half of the season. When did Palmerio test positive? The second half of the season. It may be a coincidence, but Tejada's front runner attitude and negative publicity is not what the Yankees need/want.


- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I guess never missing the most season and him being apart of all the dynasty teams isn't winning, huh? Nevermind the fact that Jeter NEVER gives up. Who hit the home run in the top of the 7th in game 5 to make it a 2 run game? Who singled to lead off the top of the 9th in game 5? Jeter lead the team in RBI's and HR's in the ALDS, and finished second behind Giambi in BA. What exactly is he doing wrong? Someone post the picture of Jeter in the 2002 ALDS please.

Jasbro
12-09-05, 11:23 AM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.
- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.
- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.

What is your policy regarding intelligent decisions?

Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 11:23 AM
Even if you're getting a better player in return in Manny?

Manny is not a better player than Tejada. A better hitter? Of course. But Tejada is a much better overall player.

Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 11:27 AM
I would think the treade would be Miggy for Manny and either Kevin Youklis, Andy Marte, or a pitcher.

I would think it would be more like Lester or Papelbon, Marte, and maybe even Pedroira if the O's think he can handle SS. They're not going to want Manny and his contract, and to trade Tejada they're going to need to be overwhelmed, especially by a team in their division.

Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 11:30 AM
Last year he was 14 runs above in the field, and this year he was slightly below average, but that is still far more valuable from a SS than 10 runs below from a LF.

Tejada over Manny is a no brainer.

And Manny's really like 20 runs below average in LF.

YankeePride1967
12-09-05, 11:55 AM
Even if you're getting a better player in return in Manny?

In that case then, why would Boston trade Manny within the division?

gdn
12-09-05, 11:59 AM
These superstars need to stop whining. This Tejada is making 200 times what I make in a year. STFU and play.

nyctalopia
12-09-05, 12:00 PM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.
- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.
- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.
Stone him! Heretic! Stone him!

pedromartinezfan
12-09-05, 12:01 PM
Now Red Sox fans are arguing that Tejada is better than Manny? Okay. Whatever gets Manny out of Boston works for me. Let's hope the Red Sox agree.
Yup! I just now realized that Miguel Tejada and the way he plays the most important position is more valuable than Manny Ramirez and the way he plays the least valuable position! But, make sure you know it is only because I am biased and Manny is getting traded. I don't like him anymore!

TEPLimey
12-09-05, 12:02 PM
this is according to that globe article, "Replace Ramírez with Tejada, and the Sox become the best team in baseball."

C- Varitek
1B: ?
2B: ?
3B: Rookie Marte?
SS: Tejada
CF: ?
RF: Injured Trot Nixon
LF: ?
DH: Ortiz

SP: Injured Schilling
SP: Matt Clement
SP: Tim Wakefield
SP: ?
SP: ?

RP: Timlin, Papelbon, no one else of note.

Best team in baseball indeed.

BJG
12-09-05, 12:03 PM
Most likely scenario:

Manny stays in Boston.
Tejada stays in Baltimore.

Quangormo
12-09-05, 12:04 PM
Even if we had a spot, which we don't, I think there are two teams in MLB with whom Havana Pete won't allow his people to trade -- the Yankees and the Nationals.

gdn
12-09-05, 12:05 PM
C- Varitek
1B: ?
2B: ?
3B: Rookie Marte?
SS: Tejada
CF: ?
RF: Injured Trot Nixon
LF: ?
DH: Ortiz

SP: Injured Schilling
SP: Matt Clement
SP: Tim Wakefield
SP: ?
SP: ?

RP: Timlin, Papelbon, no one else of note.

Best team in baseball indeed.You forgot Beckett, Lowell and Lorretta.

Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 12:06 PM
Most likely scenario:

Manny stays in Boston.
Tejada stays in Baltimore.

I agree with Tejada. There are rumors that Manny is getting pressured by his wife to leave Boston because of one of his honeys. If that's true I don't think he'll give in this time.

BJG
12-09-05, 12:07 PM
You forgot Beckett, Lowell and Lorretta.

And David Wells, Kevin Youkilis, Manny Delcarmen, Mota, etc.

Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 12:07 PM
C- Varitek
1B: Youkilis, Petagine
2B: Loretta
3B: Rookie Marte?
SS: Tejada
CF: ?
RF: Injured Trot Nixon
LF: ?
DH: Ortiz

SP: Injured Schilling
SP: Matt Clement
SP: Tim Wakefield
SP: Josh Beckett
SP: Bronson Arroyo, David Wells

RP: Timlin, Papelbon, Mota, Declarmen, Foulke, Hansen no one else of note.

Best team in baseball indeed.

Fixed it.

nyctalopia
12-09-05, 12:07 PM
C- Varitek
1B: ?
2B: ?
3B: Rookie Marte?
SS: Tejada
CF: ?
RF: Injured Trot Nixon
LF: ?
DH: Ortiz

SP: Injured Schilling
SP: Matt Clement
SP: Tim Wakefield
SP: ?
SP: ?

RP: Timlin, Papelbon, no one else of note.

Best team in baseball indeed.

I somewhat agree with you, but let's not forget Lowell at 3B and JOSH BECKETT, + Chris Hansen in the bullpen and Keith Foulke. There's also Youkilis and Petagine, and Alex Cora for 2nd base. This is a Yankees forum, but try to be a little objective with your posts.

YankClipper5
12-09-05, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey
C- Varitek
1B: ?
2B: ?
3B: Rookie Marte?
SS: Tejada
CF: ?
RF: Injured Trot Nixon
LF: ?
DH: Ortiz

SP: Injured Schilling
SP: Matt Clement
SP: Tim Wakefield
SP: ?
SP: ?

RP: Timlin, Papelbon, no one else of note.

Best team in baseball indeed.



I somewhat agree with you, but let's not forget Lowell at 3B and JOSH BECKETT, + Chris Hansen in the bullpen and Keith Foulke. There's also Youkilis and Petagine, and Alex Cora for 2nd base. This is a Yankees forum, but try to be a little objective with your posts.

It should be noted that Wells is on the trading block and likely won't be pitching for the Sox next year

Something I thought was strange about the deal for Loretta was that they lost Wakefield's catcher, sure he is only a backup, but I figure him more critical as in the few times I have seen Varitek catch Wake, he didn't seem to handle the task well.

NDBoston
12-09-05, 12:28 PM
It should be noted that Wells is on the trading block and likely won't be pitching for the Sox next year

Something I thought was strange about the deal for Loretta was that they lost Wakefield's catcher, sure he is only a backup, but I figure him more critical as in the few times I have seen Varitek catch Wake, he didn't seem to handle the task well.

People bring up that inning in Game 5 of the ALCS in 2004 but even Wakefield said he never saw his knuckleball move so much that night. In other words, it's a small sample size.

Varitek has caught Wakefield numerous times before (for 2 years) and after Maribelli came to the Red Sox. He handled the job fine and I expect a decent backup defensive catcher to be signed (minus the offensive production Maribelli brought). If Francona continues to give off days to Tek on Wakefield's starts, it should be a non-issue.

JDPNYY
12-09-05, 12:31 PM
Did Boston get much snow today?

NDBoston
12-09-05, 12:32 PM
Did Boston get much snow today?

The Berkshires is getting a foot but it's sunny and warm in Miami.

JDPNYY
12-09-05, 12:34 PM
The Berkshires is getting a foot but it's sunny and warm in Miami.

Enjoy that weather.

I can't wait for the day that I have a winter home in Florida.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 12:39 PM
In that case then, why would Boston trade Manny within the division?

To get a perpetually unhappy player off the team.

It's not really about who is the better player, it's about who is a better player for each team. If the Sox think that Tejada is a better fit, and the O's think that Manny is a better fit, then it doesn't really matter who is a better player. I could make an arguement for either, but in the end this is what it comes down to.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 12:44 PM
While I agree that there are still major holes in the lineup...let me fill in a few of your ?'s (in red below). As you can see, it's not quite as dire a condition as you think it is...


C- Varitek
1B: ? Petagine
2B: ? Loretta
3B: Rookie Marte? Lowell
SS: Tejada Cora
CF: ?
RF: Injured Trot Nixon
LF: ? Ramirez
DH: Ortiz

SP: Injured Schilling
SP: Matt Clement
SP: Tim Wakefield
SP: ? Wade Miller (Thorwing off a mound in Feb)
SP: ? Beckett

RP: Timlin, Papelbon, no one else of note. Delcarman, Mota, Foulke (assuming he's healthy)

Best team in baseball indeed.

Jace
12-09-05, 12:49 PM
While I agree that there are still major holes in the lineup...let me fill in a few of your ?'s (in red below). As you can see, it's not quite as dire a condition as you think it is...

I know you put in your own question marks, but its pretty misleading putting Manny and Tejada in the same batting order.

Edit: anddd you changed it. I am corrected.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 12:55 PM
I know you put in your own question marks, but its pretty misleading putting Manny and Tejada in the same batting order.

Edit: anddd you changed it. I am corrected.

I meant to have it reflect that Tejada was out, Cora was in at SS. :)

Prickly Pete
12-09-05, 12:57 PM
While I agree that there are still major holes in the lineup...let me fill in a few of your ?'s (in red below). As you can see, it's not quite as dire a condition as you think it is...
Forget Wade Miller and come up with something better than a middle reliever playing 1B and we're getting closer.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 12:59 PM
Forget Wade Miller and come up with something better than a middle reliever playing 1B and we're getting closer.

Miller will be pitching this year. And I meant Petagine, not Delcarman :)

Prickly Pete
12-09-05, 01:04 PM
Miller will be pitching this year.
Sure, lots of pitchers bounce right back from labrum surgery.

I won't say it's impossible, but Miller certainly won't be pitching in April and probably not for the Red Sox at all. Right now, he's 8th or 9th on the Red Sox depth chart for SP. If he becomes one of the top 5, they are in very big trouble.

Chambliss
12-09-05, 01:10 PM
To get a perpetually unhappy player off the team.

It's not really about who is the better player, it's about who is a better player for each team. If the Sox think that Tejada is a better fit, and the O's think that Manny is a better fit, then it doesn't really matter who is a better player. I could make an arguement for either, but in the end this is what it comes down to.

I understand why Boston partisans are pushing a Tejada for Manny swap, but what does it do for the O's? Sure, they get rid of an unhappy player. But, in return they get a guy who'll probably be less than content to play out his career for a cellar-dwelling, rebuilding team. Also, if Baltimore decides to dump Tejada and rebuild, is an aging Manny Ramirez the way to go? Sure, a power hitting, defensive liability in his decline phase who is owed 60M over the next three years is defintely the way to go.

yankswn23
12-09-05, 01:19 PM
I believe Nomar was a better offensive and Defensive Shortstop back in the day and we beat the Red sox with him, we will beat them with tejada. Manny scares me alot more in Boston.

YankeePride1967
12-09-05, 01:20 PM
Miller will be pitching this year. And I meant Petagine, not Delcarman :)

Wasn't that also declared for 2005?

yankswn23
12-09-05, 01:20 PM
ichiro said he wanted to be traded this year in order to light a fire under management to get some players to be more competitive, this could be a similar ploy by Tejada.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 01:22 PM
I believe Nomar was a better offensive and Defensive Shortstop back in the day and we beat the Red sox with him, we will beat them with tejada. Manny scares me alot more in Boston.

By that logic, since the Yankees didn't "beat" the Sox in '04 that would make Orlando Cabrera the best shortstop of all?

yankswn23
12-09-05, 01:23 PM
i think the Orioles desperately need a pitcher maybe we can offer a package around Pavano, Get tejada, and trade him for a CF, like Hunter.

Stashed_in_the_South
12-09-05, 01:24 PM
First: Noone said Miggy was overrated I just think he isn't as good as Manny. Looking at the OPS numbers is evidence of that. I would want Miggy on my team no doubt, but there are concerns (I would be concerned about steroids). All things being equal (same age, same price) I would pick Manny over Miggy if I wanted to start a team.
The reason I think you are wrong on this assertion is that you're not taking defense into account.

Tejada is a gold-glove caliber shortstop (in my opinion, every bit as good as DJ, if not better) AND he has a hell of a bat.

Meanwhile, Ramirez is an absolutely ATROCIOUS fielder. He has an FRAA (according to BP) of -47. MINUS 47!

If he played more games away from Fenway, which has a tiny little leftfield, he'd be even worse... he has absolutely no range.

Ramirez also wants to get out of Boston badly enough that he has (through his agent) threatened to be a spring-training no-show. Tejada wants out of Baltimore because he wants to play with a winner.

Jeter for Tejada would never happen- that post was totally silly- but if the Yanks could pull it off (all questions about "Intangibles" (which I believe in) aside) it would be a steal for the Yanks. Tejada is arguably a better fielder, and if not, is close; is younger, and is a much better hitter, all for 7 million less per year.

Seeing that Ramirez and Tejada both want out of Baltimore, AND that Baltimore could use a top-notch DH and occasional outfielder (Sosa and Palmiero are gone) while Boston obviously needs a shortstop, AND seeing that Ortiz and Tejada are off-season buddies...

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if this trade goes down.

yankswn23
12-09-05, 01:27 PM
How about this magical three team scenario:
O's get SP Pavano and Minor leaguer from twins.
Twins Get CF Bubba Crosby and SS Tejada.
Yankees get CF Torii hunter.

Yankees Sign Roger Clemens to one Year 15 mil.

yankswn23
12-09-05, 01:28 PM
By that logic, since the Yankees didn't "beat" the Sox in '04 that would make Orlando Cabrera the best shortstop of all?
No because they had Cabrera and Ramirez.

Quangormo
12-09-05, 01:41 PM
One of the wildest rumors involves Tejada going to Boston (which needs a shortstop) in a deal involving Manny Ramirez.

I don't think it will happen, but there is a certain weird logic to it. Each team is giving up its best hitter. Tejada could provide good protection for Ortiz, better than anyone else they're likely to get for Manny, and like Manny, he's Dominican, so he's in David Ortiz's comfort zone.

The Red Sox have a need at shortstop and the Orioles are short on outfielders. Baltimroe has Eddie Rogers, who (while certainly not Tejada) looks like he can be a capable major-league shortstop. Boston executive Bill Lajoie was talking on the radio yesterday about how they might need to get newly-acquired prospect Andy Marte (the guy they got for Renteria), a AAA 3B, some playing time in the outfield, given Mike Lowell's presence on the team. So each team has a passable player to take over the position of the player they'd be trading.

So in a sort of way it makes a certain sense. Still, it seems extremely off the wall -- off all four of them, in fact.

Jace
12-09-05, 01:43 PM
How about this magical three team scenario:
O's get SP Pavano and Minor leaguer from twins.
Twins Get CF Bubba Crosby and SS Tejada.
Yankees get CF Torii hunter.

Yankees Sign Roger Clemens to one Year 15 mil.

The O's give up Tejada for Pavano, eh? I think the Twins prospect would have to be Francisco Liriano (one of the top 3 pitching prospects in baseball) for the O's to do this. And the Twins would never give up Torii Hunter and Liriano for Tejada (Crosby has no value).

Jace
12-09-05, 01:45 PM
No because they had Cabrera and Ramirez.

I think there might have been some other reasons too.

23and2
12-09-05, 01:49 PM
By that logic, since the Yankees didn't "beat" the Sox in '04 that would make Orlando Cabrera the best shortstop of all?

Although you're responding to another poster, and I totally understand your point about being better off with better players, I've got to tell 'ya... The Red Sox are a lot less scary without the OC's, Millars, Muellers of the world. As scary as Otiz/Manny can be (and almost always are), not having to face these and other Yankee killers anymore is a good thing.

SoxFan44
12-09-05, 01:53 PM
Although you're responding to another poster, and I totally understand your point about being better off with better players, I've got to tell 'ya... The Red Sox are a lot less scary without the OC's, Millars, Muellers of the world. As scary as Otiz/Manny can be (and almost always are), not having to face these and other Yankee killers anymore is a good thing.

And I agree with you 100%. The reason why the Sox were so effective in '04 and even '03 was because their lineup was full, from 1 to 9 (OK, maybe 1 to 8), of hitters you didn't want to face as a pitcher. Two or three superstars on a team at the expense of building a team full of moderate talent is not going to win you a championship.

4degrees
12-09-05, 01:58 PM
Jeter for Tejada would never happen- that post was totally silly- but if the Yanks could pull it off (all questions about "Intangibles" (which I believe in) aside) it would be a steal for the Yanks. Tejada is arguably a better fielder, and if not, is close; is younger, and is a much better hitter, all for 7 million less per year.
.

I figured I'd get stoned over the comment, but if you don't look at it emotionally, it does make sense.

For every reason you can come up with why this is a bad trade, there is a counter argument.

- The #2 most marketable icon in MLB behind Jeter is ARod. So you lose something, but you do have a replacement.

- In terms of OPS, they're pretty close. But as their careers go on, one has an injury history, one doesn't. In terms of defense, between 2000-2003 Tejada had an average UZR of +1, while Jeter had an average of -28. Tejada is an above average defensive ss, Jeter is far below average.

- Tejada + $7M > Jeter.

- The goal is to win the WS. The so-called "intangibles" that Jeter brings to the table has not been a difference maker; the team hasn't won since 2000. Leadership is not a person - it is an activity, where a group bands together to follow a common goal. There are enough professionals on the team that it's unlikely the team will fall apart without Jeter.


But south's comment that the trade is silly from the point of view that the Yankees would never do it, I can't argue with that. They won't even ask the guy to move to CF; he really is like Ripken - untouchable and beyond reproach, even though Cal's last years were open to criticism.

However, one of the beauties of baseball is that you never know what will happen. Who would've ever thought we'd end up with ARod? Or Clemens? This is a proposal that does have some merits.

yankswn23
12-09-05, 01:59 PM
The O's give up Tejada for Pavano, eh? I think the Twins prospect would have to be Francisco Liriano (one of the top 3 pitching prospects in baseball) for the O's to do this. And the Twins would never give up Torii Hunter and Liriano for Tejada (Crosby has no value).
Sure they would Hunter is a free agent next year, he will probably be gone by the All Star Game, and the orioles was one of Pavano's biggest suitors.

Jace
12-09-05, 02:06 PM
Sure they would Hunter is a free agent next year, he will probably be gone by the All Star Game, and the orioles was one of Pavano's biggest suitors.

And yet the Twins will still need a CF if they trade Hunter, and they will not consider Bubba Crosby the answer. In addition, you are undervaluing Liriano, who they might not trade for Tejada straight up. He is ready for the majors, is a lefty, and is compared all the time to Johan Santana (also he costs nothing whereas Tejada is 4 years/54 mil).

The O's may have really wanted Pavano last year, but obviously he is worth a lot less to them this year as he got injured again, possibly proving his good year was a fluke, and now costs 3/30. He definitely isn't worth Tejada and I am pretty sure they would demand a GREAT prospect like Liriano (they need pitching, and he would do the trick).

Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 02:26 PM
It's not really about who is the better player, it's about who is a better player for each team. If the Sox think that Tejada is a better fit, and the O's think that Manny is a better fit, then it doesn't really matter who is a better player. I could make an arguement for either, but in the end this is what it comes down to.

Considering that the few good position player prospects the O's have are OFers, how does trading a younger, cheaper, and superior player for Manny make sense for them? If the O's trade Tejada they'll be rebuilding with young talent...like Marte, Pedroia, and Lester. They're not going to take on an over 30 should-be DH.

Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 02:27 PM
How about this magical three team scenario:
O's get SP Pavano and Minor leaguer from twins.
Twins Get CF Bubba Crosby and SS Tejada.
Yankees get CF Torii hunter.

Yankees Sign Roger Clemens to one Year 15 mil.

I'm scared that this isn't a joke.

nyctalopia
12-09-05, 02:48 PM
One of the wildest rumors involves Tejada going to Boston (which needs a shortstop) in a deal involving Manny Ramirez.

I don't think it will happen, but there is a certain weird logic to it. Each team is giving up its best hitter. Tejada could provide good protection for Ortiz, better than anyone else they're likely to get for Manny, and like Manny, he's Dominican, so he's in David Ortiz's comfort zone.

The Red Sox have a need at shortstop and the Orioles are short on outfielders. Baltimroe has Eddie Rogers, who (while certainly not Tejada) looks like he can be a capable major-league shortstop. Boston executive Bill Lajoie was talking on the radio yesterday about how they might need to get newly-acquired prospect Andy Marte (the guy they got for Renteria), a AAA 3B, some playing time in the outfield, given Mike Lowell's presence on the team. So each team has a passable player to take over the position of the player they'd be trading.

So in a sort of way it makes a certain sense. Still, it seems extremely off the wall -- off all four of them, in fact.
you have a way of being ridiculously late for everything. hence the locked threads and this post. READING the other posts before you make one would help immensely.

ryanthe13th
12-09-05, 02:49 PM
Why are we even discussing Tejada coming here? He plays SS and we don't need one. Simple as that.

noneckwilliams
12-09-05, 02:51 PM
The Berkshires is getting a foot but it's sunny and warm in Miami.


Did Boston get much snow today?

The word "Blizzard" (with the added bonus of thunder and lightning) would not be an innaccuate desription of what the weather is like in Boston right now.

Opening Day seems very far away.

nyctalopia
12-09-05, 03:00 PM
The word "Blizzard" (with the added bonus of thunder and lightning) would not be an innaccuate desription of what the weather is like in Boston right now.

Opening Day seems very far away.
yeah ... its pretty bad here right now. i've never seen thunder and lightening in the middle of a blizzard before, but that's exactly what's happening right now. i can barely see 15 feet outside my window.

Prickly Pete
12-09-05, 03:15 PM
Considering that the few good position player prospects the O's have are OFers, how does trading a younger, cheaper, and superior player for Manny make sense for them? If the O's trade Tejada they'll be rebuilding with young talent...like Marte, Pedroia, and Lester. They're not going to take on an over 30 should-be DH.
I agree with you 100 percent in terms of value and need. But when you're trading a player of Tejada's stature, there's always a PR component. It's tough enough for the O's to sell tickets right now. If they trade Tejada, they're going to feel compelled to bring back a big name like Ramirez.

I don't think this trade can happen for a lot of reasons, and I think Tejada stays put. But if the O's do agree to look into moving Tejada, getting Ramirez for him would be one of the few palatable options, I suspect.

Quangormo
12-09-05, 03:38 PM
Miller will be pitching this year. And I meant Petagine, not Delcarman :)
Right now, I'd bet on a Petagine/Youkilis platoon.

whalers
12-09-05, 03:40 PM
Right now, I'd bet on a Petagine/Youkilis platoon.

That was good for a chuckle and if thats what the end up with on opening day that chuckle will be side splitting laughter.

terminator
12-09-05, 03:44 PM
That was good for a chuckle and if thats what the end up with on opening day that chuckle will be side splitting laughter.

While a platoon of Youks/Petagine would be less than stellar defensively - to put it mildly - I have no doubt they would be more productive than the 1B platoon we had last year.

Petagine has a Copper Glove, but I would be pretty satisifed to see what he could do if given extended playing time.

Quangormo
12-09-05, 03:46 PM
I understand why Boston partisans are pushing a Tejada for Manny swap, but what does it do for the O's? Sure, they get rid of an unhappy player. But, in return they get a guy who'll probably be less than content to play out his career for a cellar-dwelling, rebuilding team. Also, if Baltimore decides to dump Tejada and rebuild, is an aging Manny Ramirez the way to go? Sure, a power hitting, defensive liability in his decline phase who is owed 60M over the next three years is defintely the way to go.
If Baltimore had to open today, their outfielders would be Eric Byrnes, Luis Matos, and either Jay Gibbons (if he doesn't play 1B) or David Newhan (if he doesn't DH.) Their backups are Val Majewski and Jeff Fiorentino. They need a slugging OF and they need to buy a few years to let their young players develop. They cna use young Eddie Rogers at shortstop (he'd be adequate) or get someone like Julio Lugo to fill the gap for now.

Or they could flip Manny in a year or so for a package that moves their rebuilding ahead.

BJG
12-09-05, 03:46 PM
That was good for a chuckle and if thats what the end up with on opening day that chuckle will be side splitting laughter.

It shouldn't. That's not a horrible combo.

whalers
12-09-05, 03:49 PM
While a platoon of Youks/Petagine would be less than stellar defensively - to put it mildly - I have no doubt they would be more productive than the 1B platoon we had last year.

Petagine has a Copper Glove, but I would be pretty satisifed to see what he could do if given extended playing time.

I really dont think it would be that much more productive. If lord helmut had another year in him he would be more productive than the platoon you suggest.

TEPLimey
12-09-05, 04:58 PM
OK... I did forget several people. My apologies (I hadn't got my necessary coffee when I posted earlier). Credit to GDN, BJG, Wang's Groundballs, nyctalopia, YankClipper5, SoxFan44 who were more on thier game tha I was. That said...

C- Varitek
1B: Petagine/Youkilis
2B: Loretta
3B: Lowell
SS: Tejada
CF: ?
RF: Injured Trot Nixon
LF: ?
DH: Ortiz

SP: Injured Schilling
SP: Matt Clement
SP: Tim Wakefield
SP: Injured Wade MIller
SP: Josh Beckett
SP: Injured Wells

RP: Timlin, Papelbon, Delcarman, Mota, Injured Foulke.

My point is still valid. Even if they traded for Tejada, its disingeuous to say they're hands down the best team in baseball.

Chambliss
12-09-05, 05:20 PM
If Baltimore had to open today, their outfielders would be Eric Byrnes, Luis Matos, and either Jay Gibbons (if he doesn't play 1B) or David Newhan (if he doesn't DH.) Their backups are Val Majewski and Jeff Fiorentino. They need a slugging OF and they need to buy a few years to let their young players develop. They cna use young Eddie Rogers at shortstop (he'd be adequate) or get someone like Julio Lugo to fill the gap for now.

Or they could flip Manny in a year or so for a package that moves their rebuilding ahead.

I guess that's a possibility, but I think Manny's market is fairly limited to teams in a win now mode and willing to pay 60M for a DH in his mid-30s. I just don't see why Baltimore's willing to trade one headache for another. If Baltimore's interested in rebuilding, why not trade him to a team that needs a SS and could offer a package of prospects. Trading him to Boston only makes sense for the Red Sox. I don't understand what it would do for the O's. Manny's production doesn't put the O's in the playoffs next year.

BJG
12-09-05, 05:24 PM
If I'm the Orioles, I can't imagine a scenario in which they think Manny is as valuable as Tejada. I may not agree with Jim Bowden's thinking, for example, when he traded for Soriano, but I at least I understand that he has a philosophy under which he values Soriano more than what he had.

If the Orioles are sabermetrically inclined, they understand positional values, and Tejada is better.

If they are tools inclined, Tejada has more.

If they are speed and defense inclined, Tejada is better.

If they are PR inclined, Tejada is the one with the MVP.

If they are money inclined, Tejada makes less.

If they are personality inclined, Manny is just as much an ass as Tejada.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-09-05, 05:39 PM
Tejada is maybe the most overrated player in MLB....let Boston get him for Manny, I dont care

that title goes to soriano and ichiro

YankeeFan1
12-09-05, 05:42 PM
I guess that's a possibility, but I think Manny's market is fairly limited to teams in a win now mode and willing to pay 60M for a DH in his mid-30s. I just don't see why Baltimore's willing to trade one headache for another. If Baltimore's interested in rebuilding, why not trade him to a team that needs a SS and could offer a package of prospects. Trading him to Boston only makes sense for the Red Sox. I don't understand what it would do for the O's. Manny's production doesn't put the O's in the playoffs next year. I agree. I don't see why the Os would do this trade. If anything, I can see the Os trading Tejada for some quality pitching, but not for Manny.

23and2
12-09-05, 05:43 PM
If they are tools inclined, Tejada has more.


Tejada may have more tools, but Ramirez has a bigger hammer.

(Not actually being argumentative as I agree with your post 100% I just didn't want to waste what I considered to be a nice response... :P )

whalers
12-09-05, 05:44 PM
If I'm the Orioles, I can't imagine a scenario in which they think Manny is as valuable as Tejada. I may not agree with Jim Bowden's thinking, for example, when he traded for Soriano, but I at least I understand that he has a philosophy under which he values Soriano more than what he had.

If the Orioles are sabermetrically inclined, they understand positional values, and Tejada is better.

If they are tools inclined, Tejada has more.

If they are speed and defense inclined, Tejada is better.

If they are PR inclined, Tejada is the one with the MVP.

If they are money inclined, Tejada makes less.

If they are personality inclined, Manny is just as much an ass as Tejada.

I agree with all of these points. I was in Boston for a good part of the day and happened to catch a little of the local sports talk and I found it pretty amusing. Everyone and their mother cant think of a reason why this trade couldnt happen.

mhmajp
12-09-05, 05:46 PM
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.

You apparently don't necessarily make good business decisions either. Who do you think makes more revenue for the Yankees, Jeter or Tejada. And maybe the Yankees haven't won a WS since he's been made Cpt, but he's not the reason for that and he has won four WS with the Yankees. :P

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-09-05, 05:59 PM
Yup! I just now realized that Miguel Tejada and the way he plays the most important position is more valuable than Manny Ramirez and the way he plays the least valuable position! But, make sure you know it is only because I am biased and Manny is getting traded. I don't like him anymore!

then why was A-rod vs. Ortiz for MVP even a debate?

swityak11
12-09-05, 06:07 PM
You apparently don't necessarily make good business decisions either. Who do you think makes more revenue for the Yankees, Jeter or Tejada. Would Jeter alone net the Yankees $7 million more than Tejada would? Probably, but only seeing the books would tell for sure. As fans should we really be concerned if a couple extra million makes it into George's pocket over a better squad? It's an interesting excercise when you're dealing with an untouchable like Jeter.

Of course there's zero chance this trade would ever happen so an interesting excercise is about all it is.

Yankees13
12-09-05, 06:55 PM
then why was A-rod vs. Ortiz for MVP even a debate?
Touche.

pedromartinezfan
12-09-05, 07:14 PM
then why was A-rod vs. Ortiz for MVP even a debate?I said from the beginning that A-Rod should win hands down so don't come to me with that.

Dr. Gonzo
12-09-05, 07:17 PM
people forget the one thing. I doubt manny would accept a trade to baltimore.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-09-05, 07:24 PM
I said from the beginning that A-Rod should win hands down so don't come to me with that.

I know that, I dont think you are biased at all, I was mainly talking about half the baseball population who seem to be changing their opinions now.(not just red sox fans)

goin for 27
12-09-05, 10:51 PM
If I'm the Orioles, I can't imagine a scenario in which they think Manny is as valuable as Tejada.

I don't think that this trade will happen. However, there are several scenarios that Manny is as valuable as Tejada. (Actually, clearly more valuable)

OPS, OPS+, Win Shares, off the top of my head.

Career OPS Ramirez - 1.008
Career OPS Tejada - .815

Career OPS+ Ramirez - 156
Career OPS+ Tejada - 112

Even with defense factored in, Win Shares go to Ramirez as well. He is a nut, but he is astoundingly good. Tejada is phenomenal at SS, but is overrated when compared to Ramirez, Pujols, ARod and the like.

surge511
12-09-05, 11:47 PM
I bet the Orioles and Sox could work out a swap, but a good point was made earlier - I doubt Manny would approve a trade. He doesn't want to sit in Baltimore for any length of time. My bet is that he would go only to the West Coast.

Brent
12-09-05, 11:55 PM
Tejada is a heck of a ballplayer, but Id rather face him with the game on the line than Manny any day of the week.

pedromartinezfan
12-09-05, 11:56 PM
Obviously Manny Ramirez has Tejada in career value. Manny used to be a much better hitter than he is now and he was a much better fielder, too. Almost 80% of Manny Ramirez's negative fielding runs came in 2004 and 2005. He was average or above average from 1993-1997, 1999, and 2001. Miguel Tejada has only been better than Manny Ramirez since the beginning of 2004, but he is still better now.

BJG
12-10-05, 10:21 AM
I don't think that this trade will happen. However, there are several scenarios that Manny is as valuable as Tejada. (Actually, clearly more valuable)

OPS, OPS+, Win Shares, off the top of my head.

Career OPS Ramirez - 1.008
Career OPS Tejada - .815

Career OPS+ Ramirez - 156
Career OPS+ Tejada - 112

Even with defense factored in, Win Shares go to Ramirez as well. He is a nut, but he is astoundingly good. Tejada is phenomenal at SS, but is overrated when compared to Ramirez, Pujols, ARod and the like.

A team that would be sabermetrically inclined enough to go this route would understand the flaw in defensive win shares (i.e. that Manny actually costs his team wins on defense, but defensive win shares has no way to measure this) and understand that Tejada actually has more value than Manny. This was part of my point.

terminator
12-10-05, 03:02 PM
Tejada is a heck of a ballplayer, but Id rather face him with the game on the line than Manny any day of the week.

Just throwing this out there:

Would you rather face a lineup of Renteria,Ortiz,Manny or Tejada,Ortiz, Abreu ?

(don't get caught up in the fact that I used Abreu, just an example)

My point is - the Sox know that there is no way they can replace Manny in a 1 on 1 deal.
But can they replace the total production of Manny, Renteria, Millar? Hell Yeah.

noneckwilliams
12-10-05, 03:23 PM
I bet the Orioles and Sox could work out a swap, but a good point was made earlier - I doubt Manny would approve a trade. He doesn't want to sit in Baltimore for any length of time. My bet is that he would go only to the West Coast.

If I'm the O's I say give us Lester and either Hansen or Papelbon - you choose Boston.

It makes the RS odds on faves to win the WS but dims their future prospects. Pick your poison.

Dr. Gonzo
12-10-05, 03:30 PM
Just throwing this out there:

Would you rather face a lineup of Renteria,Ortiz,Manny or Tejada,Ortiz, Abreu ?

(don't get caught up in the fact that I used Abreu, just an example)

My point is - the Sox know that there is no way they can replace Manny in a 1 on 1 deal.
But can they replace the total production of Manny, Renteria, Millar? Hell Yeah.

just because people forget

Jeter-Arod-Sheff-Matsui is pretty daunting as well.

terminator
12-10-05, 03:49 PM
just because people forget

Jeter-Arod-Sheff-Matsui is pretty daunting as well.

Of course, and you should definitely add Giambi to the list.

Spiker101
12-10-05, 04:03 PM
If I'm the O's I say give us Lester and either Hansen or Papelbon - you choose Boston.

It makes the RS odds on faves to win the WS but dims their future prospects. Pick your poison.

If the Orioles would agree to trade the game's best all-round shortstop, in his prime, signed long-term to a below-market contract for two pitching prospects. the commissioner's office would have no choice but to contract the Baltimore franchise for gross stupidity.
In the last five years or so the following can't miss pitching prospects emerged: Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Rick Ankiel, Josh Beckett, Brad Penny, and guess what, they've all missed to one degree or another. They all might turn out to be decent, productive pitchers, but none at this stage appear to be headed to the Hall of Fame. Never trade proved value for pitching prospects. Never.

BJG
12-10-05, 04:26 PM
I think he meant in addition to Manny.

yogibuck
12-10-05, 04:33 PM
Can Miggy play CF?

YankeeFan1
12-10-05, 04:42 PM
I think he meant in addition to Manny. Even with Manny that isn't a good deal for Baltimore. They give up a primiere SS in his prime with a reasonable contract to take on two pitching prospects who may or may not be good one day, plus Manny's huge contract? Why on earth would they do that? The Os will be looking for a soild bat preferably a cheap young SS, plus one established starter and a top pitching prospect at minimum. The Os will be looking to stock up on talent in return for Tejada and they will find lots of teams outside of the division who have far more talent than the Red Sox. They won't be giving him away as the Red Sox fans and the media seem to think they should.

goin for 27
12-10-05, 05:31 PM
A team that would be sabermetrically inclined enough to go this route would understand the flaw in defensive win shares (i.e. that Manny actually costs his team wins on defense, but defensive win shares has no way to measure this) and understand that Tejada actually has more value than Manny. This was part of my point.

Hmmm. So the Manny leads Tejada in win shares, but there is something called defensive win shares (I did not know this) and there is no way to measure the impact of Ramirez on defense. So....Tejada has more value than Ramirez. You lost me.

I know that Tejada is very good defensively, and Ramirez very bad. However, they play different positions. Tejada will get many more chances than Ramirez to make defensive plays. Tough to judge just how many wins Ramirez would cost on defense.

However, I think that the delta would be more than made up on offense. Tejada is a great SS, and has pop, but his OPS+ is 112, nowhere near Ramirez, whose is 156.

In fact, Tejada is nowhere near ARod, Pujols, Bonds, etc.

Tejada is a very good player, and I don't want him on the Red Sox. That said, if I could add Tejada to the Red Sox, and remove Ramirez straight up, I would do it all day long, as they would not be as good a team. That tells me that Ramirez has more value.

goin for 27
12-10-05, 05:31 PM
A team that would be sabermetrically inclined enough to go this route would understand the flaw in defensive win shares (i.e. that Manny actually costs his team wins on defense, but defensive win shares has no way to measure this) and understand that Tejada actually has more value than Manny. This was part of my point.

So the Manny leads Tejada in win shares, but there is something called defensive win shares (I did not know this) and there is no way to measure the impact of Ramirez on defense. So....Tejada has more value than Ramirez. You lost me.

I know that Tejada is very good defensively, and Ramirez very bad. However, they play different positions. Tejada will get many more chances than Ramirez to make defensive plays. Tough to judge just how many wins Ramirez would cost on defense.

However, I think that the delta would be more than made up on offense. Tejada is a great SS, and has pop, but his OPS+ is 112, nowhere near Ramirez, whose is 156.

In fact, Tejada is nowhere near ARod, Pujols, Bonds, etc.

Tejada is a very good player, and I don't want him on the Red Sox. That said, if I could add Tejada to the Red Sox, and remove Ramirez straight up, I would do it all day long, as they would not be as good a team. That tells me that Ramirez has more value.

noneckwilliams
12-10-05, 06:36 PM
If the Orioles would agree to trade the game's best all-round shortstop, in his prime, signed long-term to a below-market contract for two pitching prospects. the commissioner's office would have no choice but to contract the Baltimore franchise for gross stupidity.
In the last five years or so the following can't miss pitching prospects emerged: Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Rick Ankiel, Josh Beckett, Brad Penny, and guess what, they've all missed to one degree or another. They all might turn out to be decent, productive pitchers, but none at this stage appear to be headed to the Hall of Fame. Never trade proved value for pitching prospects. Never.

I betcha the Sox wouldn't even make that trade.

(Lester and Papelbon or Hansen for Tejada)

mrbawm
12-10-05, 07:07 PM
The real question is, why would Ramirez approve a trade to Baltimore? It's a worse situation than he's already in.

Prickly Pete
12-10-05, 07:17 PM
The real question is, why would Ramirez approve a trade to Baltimore? It's a worse situation than he's already in.
There have been reports that he would go anywhere. Here's one:


While the Red Sox wouldn't say so publicly, it appears agent Greg Genske has communicated to management that Ramirez is so intent on being dealt that he will accept a trade almost anywhere. As a 10-5 player -- that is, a player with 10 years of major-league service time, the last five with the same team -- Ramirez has the right to veto any trade.

But in the last few weeks, Genske has, with the permission of the Red Sox, been calling teams to ascertain their interest in his client. One example: Genske contacted Toronto, a team no one could have forecast Ramirez would agree to play for, and said Ramirez would agree to a deal there.
Providence Journal (http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20051206_06meet.d8791f6.html)

Yankeeah
12-10-05, 07:19 PM
The real question is, why would Ramirez approve a trade to Baltimore? It's a worse situation than he's already in.

I'm not sure it's that, I think its would Baltimore trade with one of it's biggest competitors.

Spiker101
12-10-05, 07:21 PM
Tejada is a very good player, and I don't want him on the Red Sox. That said, if I could add Tejada to the Red Sox, and remove Ramirez straight up, I would do it all day long, as they would not be as good a team. That tells me that Ramirez has more value.

The problem with that is Boston saves roughly $7 million a year if the deal is straight up, even more if the Sox ship another player like Arroyo. With the difference they can go out and buy another bat. Maybe pick up a Milton Bradley or something. The way to consider the impact of the trade is look at it in four dimensions:

Is Tejada plus whoever the Sox get for left better than Manny and whoever the Orioles can entice at short. Without a lot of money changing hands I can't see how the Os come out even. But as someone said earlier in this thread, Angelos is the absolute worst owner in the game. But even dumb Angelos has got to be wondering whether this is another Albert Belle situation waiting to happen.

Spiker101
12-10-05, 07:26 PM
I betcha the Sox wouldn't even make that trade.

(Lester and Papelbon or Hansen for Tejada)

Yeah, right. Two pitching prospects for the best shortstop in baseball making less than Furcal. They'd turn that down.

Nebema
12-10-05, 07:31 PM
Manny for Tejada straight out makes little sense , I am thinking that the halos to get involved again, Manny to the Angels, Cabrera and some pitching heading to Balitimore while Tejada heads to Boston, these three teams just might make things happen.Baltimore would become the third team involved since Arizon has removed itself from previous talks.

Yankeeah
12-10-05, 07:34 PM
Some doofy (I say doofy because he came across as a doof) Sox beat writer was just on SC. He said the Sox did offer Ramirez, but the Oriloes dont want to deal in the division. Take it for what its worth

ryanthe13th
12-10-05, 07:44 PM
Trading Manny to another AL East team?! BRILLIANT!

BJG
12-10-05, 08:18 PM
Manny for Tejada straight out makes little sense , I am thinking that the halos to get involved again, Manny to the Angels, Cabrera and some pitching heading to Balitimore while Tejada heads to Boston, these three teams just might make things happen.Baltimore would become the third team involved since Arizon has removed itself from previous talks.

What pitching? The Angels are already on record as having no interest in trading Santana, Shields, etc. for Manny even without trading their SS.

Wang's Groundballs
12-10-05, 08:55 PM
So the Manny leads Tejada in win shares, but there is something called defensive win shares (I did not know this) and there is no way to measure the impact of Ramirez on defense. So....Tejada has more value than Ramirez. You lost me.

I know that Tejada is very good defensively, and Ramirez very bad. However, they play different positions. Tejada will get many more chances than Ramirez to make defensive plays. Tough to judge just how many wins Ramirez would cost on defense.

Not really. Manny was a -47 according to UZR this year, but that doesn't include his arm, so lets give him a +10. So a -37 costs his team 3.7 wins, or roughly 4. Manny was just under a +37 with the bat as well, although that's not adjusted for position which will take it down close to 10 runs. So, at least last year, Manny was not even an average player. Of course having a -47 in LF of all places is extremely flukey. But Manny is predicted to be a -20 on defense next year and remain close to a +30 (position adjusted) on offense. So overall he's worth about 10 runs, or 1 win, over the average LF.

Tejada last season was a +22 (not position adjusted) with the bat. I'd add at least 5 runs to his value when you adjust for position. He's generally been an above average fielder as well, but he appears to have slipped a bit in 2005 (I don't have his UZR for this year, though) and was slightly below average. But I'd say at worse, Tejada is a +20 or 2 wins above average.

Oh, I should add the offense stat I'm using is linear weights, which has been shown to correlate with runs scored better than any other metric.

But anyways, to me at least, I think it's obvious that overall Tejada is worth more than Manny. Throw in the fact that he's younger, makes $7 million less a year, and it's much easier to find a good LF than it is SS, and the deal is an absolute slam dunk for the Red Sox. Thankfully, I think the Orioles know this as well.

the_coach
12-10-05, 09:19 PM
Tejada for Manny, makes the Orioles better...not the Red Sox. I'm all for it.

the_coach
12-10-05, 09:22 PM
I'm dead serious about this: Jeter for Tejada.

- Jeter can be replaced as face of the Yankees for Alex.
- Tejada is a better offensive and defensive player.
- The orioles are such a mess, it would be huge PR move for them. He can be their new Ripken. They would eat Jeter's contract.
- We haven't won with Capt Intangibles. Time to try something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this, but then again, I don't make emotional decisions.


Wow.... :upset: :dunno: :uhh:

23and2
12-10-05, 09:33 PM
Attention Tejada: You are paid to play SS and produce offensively. You're weren't hired to evaluate the team's offseason moves or assess it's chances of reaching the playoffs.

Sheesh... aren't these guys paid enough freakin money? I mean, how many millions to you have to pay a guy for him to shut up and just concentrate on his job. Amazing...

jnewmark
12-12-05, 08:48 AM
Looks like he's changed his mind about the trade.




http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2256260