PDA

View Full Version : Offseason "The Sky is Falling" Thread



Pages : [1] 2

27IsNext
12-08-05, 12:37 AM
Why complain in several different topics? Tell us why the Yankees are either teh d00med or made in the shade drinkin' Cool Aid (and anyone who disagrees is a moron) in one thread!

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 12:39 AM
Aaaaahhhh, we haven't signed everyone in the majors, we're done in 2006. Cashman is a fool.

Yankees13
12-08-05, 12:41 AM
Arrrgh We Don't Have Andruw Jones In Cf Dooooooooomed Arggh We Havent Signed Bj Ryan And Trevor Hoffman To Set Up Doomed

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 12:41 AM
I think Cashman may have outsmarted himself. I don't know if he is trying to paint a picture that we're not desperate, but he's fooling absolutely no one. And unless he has Brad Lidge and Andruw Jones waiting behind door number three, the idea that nothing seems to be getting done is kind of alarming.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 12:42 AM
They havent addressed any weaknesses yet...and until they do...I will be worried

NYDCYankee
12-08-05, 12:43 AM
We are doomed because the Blue Jays are the second coming of the 27' Yankees

Vin
12-08-05, 12:43 AM
We offered Bernie arb. We're doomed.

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 12:44 AM
Don't worry dabomb, it's only the last day of the Winter Meetings!

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 12:45 AM
We offered Bernie arb. We're doomed.


well someone should get slapped in the face for that one

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 12:45 AM
we're doooooommmmmmmeeedddddddd!

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 12:46 AM
so I guess this will deteriorate into one of those "lets make fun of the people who are concerned and worried" threads

ryanm1058123
12-08-05, 12:46 AM
omgz we sux i wont wach anotha yankee game evar fu*k cashmin he sux how com he dint trade 4 juan pierraa!!!!!!11111111

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 12:47 AM
we're doooooommmmmmmeeedddddddd! We're a team full of weaknesses that the GM doesn't seem to be addressing. The other teams in the division are improving. Bad combo.

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 12:49 AM
Toronto:

- Roy Halladay
- A.J. Burnette
- Gustavo Chacin
- Josh Towers
- Ted Lilly

- Scott Downs
- Miguel Batista
- BJ Ryan

27IsNext
12-08-05, 12:49 AM
I was actually totally serious about this. Let's try and keep this open for the remainder of the offseason. All complaints, criticisms, etc. can just come here.

We need to get one more reliever (my pick is Tavarez) to compliment Mo and Farnsworth. We also need to construct a good bench. Cashman deserves every bit of criticism that he will get if neither of these things come to pass.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 12:51 AM
Toronto:

- Roy Halladay
- A.J. Burnette
- Gustavo Chacin
- Josh Towers
- Ted Lilly

- Scott Downs
- Miguel Batista
- BJ RyanHey now. We've got Farnsworth. And Proctor. And can't forget about Pavano and Wright.

We are so ................ed.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 12:51 AM
I was actually totally serious about this. Let's try and keep this open for the remainder of the offseason. All complaints, criticisms, etc. can just come here.

We need to get one more reliever (my pick is Tavarez) to compliment Mo and Farnsworth. We also need to construct a good bench. Cashman deserves every bit of criticism that he will get if neither of these things come to pass.


Tavarez would be a solid signing. I would also like to see Myers, and sign Dotel to an incentive-laden deal. Dotel was an awesome setup man, who didnt quite handle the closers job. But I think he could be great again setting up Mo.

And of course...CF must be addressed

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 12:51 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-cardinals-rockiestrade&prov=ap&type=lgns

Bye bye Ray King.

27IsNext
12-08-05, 12:52 AM
Mods, PLEASE don't delete this thread before giving it a chance to have lively debate in it. I think it could be very useful in keeping all of the complaining/panic in one thread.

27IsNext
12-08-05, 12:55 AM
Tavarez would be a solid signing. I would also like to see Myers, and sign Dotel to an incentive-laden deal. Dotel was an awesome setup man, who didnt quite handle the closers job. But I think he could be great again setting up Mo.

And of course...CF must be addressed

I would rather just give the LOOGY job to Leiter, or Matt Smith if he declines arbitration. I wouldn't mind doing a Lieber-like deal for Dotel, but he's a question mark as far as actually contributing. I also think that J. Brent Cox will be ready at some point in the season. For the start, I'd be fine with a pen of Wright, Smith, Sturtze, Farnsworth, Tavarez, and Rivera.

CF? Well, that depends on if we can get one without trading the farm away.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 12:57 AM
I have a serious question Besides a blockbuster trade, which we don't have the chips for, what the hell could he be doing that needs to develop this slowly and this secretly?

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 12:59 AM
I have a serious question Besides a blockbuster trade, which we don't have the chips for, what the hell could he be doing that needs to develop this slowly and this secretly?

Making us think that Bernie Williams would not be offered arbitration, only to offer it to him, Al Leiter, and Ramiro Mendoza. How is that for a jaw dropping announcement?

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 12:59 AM
I would rather just give the LOOGY job to Leiter, or Matt Smith if he declines arbitration. I wouldn't mind doing a Lieber-like deal for Dotel, but he's a question mark as far as actually contributing. I also think that J. Brent Cox will be ready at some point in the season. For the start, I'd be fine with a pen of Wright, Smith, Sturtze, Farnsworth, Tavarez, and Rivera.

CF? Well, that depends on if we can get one without trading the farm away.


Smith concerns me, just cuz we dont know what he is. And I really wish there was someway Wright could just dissapear. I know Dotel may be out until midsummer...but he is still fairly young and his stuff is electric. He had alot of success in the setup role, and the Yanks would be foolish to not take a flyer on him. And who knows with Cox...if he progresses quickly and helps us next year, then fantastic. But we just dont know until he proves himself down on the farm.

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 01:02 AM
So far, the Yankees plan seems to be built around:

- Guys who didn't perform well in 2005
- Unproven prospects (Cox and Smith) that will play a large role.

This is great!

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 01:08 AM
Come on folks, it's not even Father's Day yet and we're being so impatient and panicking!

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 01:09 AM
I'd have liked to have seen "Nero" somewhere in this thread title.

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 01:11 AM
So far, the Yankees plan seems to be built around:

- Guys who didn't perform well in 2005
- Unproven prospects (Cox and Smith) that will play a large role.

This is great!

Andy Phillips. That's the key. Remember the name.

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 01:12 AM
Mods, PLEASE don't delete this thread before giving it a chance to have lively debate in it. I think it could be very useful in keeping all of the complaining/panic in one thread.

And our "wishful thinking with absolutely no basis" or "kool-aid drinking" you might add. :)

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 01:15 AM
Here's the thing, 27, and I know it's not your intent. The thread, by title alone, is making a mockery of some valid points and concerns that some of us have. I think it's better to comment on these things in the "Winter meetings, how are we doing" thread to keep it fair and balanced. Why would I want to "complain" here when the thread's title is inviting me or others to be mocked?

SubwayFanatic
12-08-05, 01:16 AM
Does anyone get the sense that the Yankees are, to an extent, 'rebuilding'? I hate to even use that term because they should be in the playoff hunt again next year.

But I almost get the sense that what we see is what we get. I don't see many more major moves, simply because I don't see a lot out there. You almost get the sense that the front office is going to tweak this team a little bit, see if this current cast of players can win it all, and if not, they will just look ahead to a future of A-Rod, Cano, Wang and others while spending a bit more next offseason when a contract like Mussina is finished.

Not necessarily saying that is a bad thing either, but just a thought.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 01:23 AM
Does anyone get the sense that the Yankees are, to an extent, 'rebuilding'? I hate to even use that term because they should be in the playoff hunt again next year.

But I almost get the sense that what we see is what we get. I don't see many more major moves, simply because I don't see a lot out there. You almost get the sense that the front office is going to tweak this team a little bit, see if this current cast of players can win it all, and if not, they will just look ahead to a future of A-Rod, Cano, Wang and others while spending a bit more next offseason when a contract like Mussina is finished.

Not necessarily saying that is a bad thing either, but just a thought.

I posted this in another thread. Rebuilding is all well and good. If you want to save money...concentrate on stockpiling draft picks and rebuilding the farm, thats fine. Make a FULL committment to it and stick with it.

When teams get into problems is when they get into that gray area of "we want to win a title, but actually we want to rebuild too". Cant do both...pick one or the other and go for it.

Its very often that we see teams in all sports do the half-rebuilding and half-trying to win thing....and usually they end up stuck in neutral for a long time.

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 01:24 AM
Rebuild? What are we rebuilding with? Hughes isn't going to be ML ready for a while, Cabrera is going to take another half to full season, and the same with Duncan and Cox. We don't have a farm system to rebuild with, so why rely on a series of question marks?

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 01:24 AM
I posted this in another thread. Rebuilding is all well and good. If you want to save money...concentrate on stockpiling draft picks and rebuilding the farm, thats fine. Make a FULL committment to it and stick with it.

When teams get into problems is when they get into that gray area of "we want to win a title, but actually we want to rebuild too". Cant do both...pick one or the other and go for it.

Its very often that we see teams in all sports do the half-rebuilding and half-trying to win thing....and usually they end up stuck in neutral for a long time.

WOW. This says it all. See the Mets in past years. Do we rebuild? Win today? Rebuild? Win today?

SubwayFanatic
12-08-05, 01:27 AM
I think you can rebuild and remain competitive. Look at the Braves over the years -- it seems like they are always bringing up young talent, but they will also sign a player or two via free agency.

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 01:31 AM
The difference: The Braves have a good farm system.

We do not.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 01:31 AM
I think you can rebuild and remain competitive. Look at the Braves over the years -- it seems like they are always bringing up young talent, but they will also sign a player or two via free agency.


Yet they lose in the 1st round of the playoffs every year....

jbauer2485
12-08-05, 01:34 AM
I think you can rebuild and remain competitive. Look at the Braves over the years -- it seems like they are always bringing up young talent, but they will also sign a player or two via free agency.


Yes, we should continue this offseason trend of hoarding our young talent...


and then sign Damon up for a three year deal to keep us competitive.
:-hide-:
/runs away

SubwayFanatic
12-08-05, 01:34 AM
Yet they lose in the 1st round of the playoffs every year....


Fair point, but one could argue that there really is not a specific formula for winning in the postseason.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 01:38 AM
Fair point, but one could argue that there really is not a specific formula for winning in the postseason.


maybe...but I think it has to be more then coincidence that the Braves have won every division title since 1991, yet in that time have won only 1 championship and have only made the World Series 5 times.

jbauer2485
12-08-05, 01:43 AM
maybe...but I think it has to be more then coincidence that the Braves have won every division title since 1991, yet in that time have won only 1 championship and have only made the World Series 5 times.

The yankees might be in the same boat in a few years, and we definitely do not mimic Atlanta's formula.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 01:49 AM
The yankees might be in the same boat in a few years, and we definitely do not mimic Atlanta's formula.


I'd rather rebuild...suck for a few years, then in maybe 3-5 years and be a team that can become another dynasty...then just lose in the 1st round each season.

Jaeho
12-08-05, 01:52 AM
A good thread to control the all the crazy and keep them in one place.

Dotel might not be ready til mid-season. And even then might not be back in form til 2007. So how the heck is that some sort of solution for the pen? I would feel better if some of the complainers could actually come up with good and plausible solutions. Otherwise it sounds like they just want to Yankees to overspend to counter all these Jay and Sox moves.


The difference: The Braves have a good farm system.

We do not.

Then where did Cano and Wang come from? You get the "good farm system" label for developing players, which we haven't recently. That looks to be changing. By next year, the Yankee farm system will probably be ranked in the middle of the pack.

You should also be happy to know that our farm system is one of the best in baseball from the A level down. But they will take a few years to get major league level ready. Do you have the patience? Maybe the Yankees finally do.

We also have the best farm system in NY if that means anything.

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 01:53 AM
I'd rather rebuild...suck for a few years, then in maybe 3-5 years and be a team that can become another dynasty...then just lose in the 1st round each season.

Ideally, that sounds nice. But when you have so much invested in A-Rod, Jeter, Giambi, Mo, RJ, Posada and Sheff, and especially at their ages, that's not an alternative. That's why the Yanks are picking a bad time to suddenly get thrifty, if that's in fact what they are doing.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 01:56 AM
Ideally, that sounds nice. But when you have so much invested in A-Rod, Jeter, Giambi, Mo, RJ, Posada and Sheff, and especially at their ages, that's not an alternative. That's why the Yanks are picking a bad time to suddenly get thrifty, if that's in fact what they are doing.


I happen to agree with you....Im just trying to say thats its nearly impossible to rebuild as much as some people want, yet still have enough to win championships.

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 01:57 AM
I happen to agree with you....Im just trying to say thats its nearly impossible to rebuild as much as some people want, yet still have enough to win championships.

I know what you were saying, and I am in agreement as well. I was just adding to it, more or less.

ComeBackShane47
12-08-05, 02:43 AM
Joke all you want guys, but beyond Farnsworth, the Yankees are yet to address any of their many holes, while teams like the Sox and Jays are getting creative with ways to help their teams this year and following years, for better or for worse. The Yanks on the other hand, let the winter meetings go by with nothing more to say than that they will continue to talk with Bernie Williams.

As a fan I have to question if the organization really had a plan going into this offseason, or if they were just going to see what happens.

Now I am not saying the sky is falling, but it would be nice to see some sign of a plan from the Yankees, a team that I invest my time and money to support.

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 03:19 AM
Joke all you want guys, but beyond Farnsworth, the Yankees are yet to address any of their many holes, while teams like the Sox and Jays are getting creative with ways to help their teams this year and following years, for better or for worse. The Yanks on the other hand, let the winter meetings go by with nothing more to say than that they will continue to talk with Bernie Williams.

As a fan I have to question if the organization really had a plan going into this offseason, or if they were just going to see what happens.

Now I am not saying the sky is falling, but it would be nice to see some sign of a plan from the Yankees, a team that I invest my time and money to support.

You have a legitimate concern and it isn't any more wrong or right than somebody actually believing that there's this master plan and that everything will be alright.

My guess is that there is no concrete plan and that the Yanks are just waiting to see what shakes out. Maybe they'll get lucky. Maybe not. Farnworth as a stepping stone to bigger and better things in the works is OK. Farnsworth's signing alone is not O.K.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 03:51 AM
I think Cashman may have outsmarted himself. I don't know if he is trying to paint a picture that we're not desperate, but he's fooling absolutely no one. And unless he has Brad Lidge and Andruw Jones waiting behind door number three, the idea that nothing seems to be getting done is kind of alarming.
The Yankees don't need Lidge nor Jones to have a WS favorite.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 03:52 AM
Joke all you want guys, but beyond Farnsworth, the Yankees are yet to address any of their many holes, while teams like the Sox and Jays are getting creative with ways to help their teams this year and following years, for better or for worse. The Yanks on the other hand, let the winter meetings go by with nothing more to say than that they will continue to talk with Bernie Williams.

As a fan I have to question if the organization really had a plan going into this offseason, or if they were just going to see what happens.

Now I am not saying the sky is falling, but it would be nice to see some sign of a plan from the Yankees, a team that I invest my time and money to support.
Now, that Cashman knows which players were offered arbitration, he will go to work in filling in the blanks for the bullpen, CF and DH.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 03:55 AM
I happen to agree with you....Im just trying to say thats its nearly impossible to rebuild as much as some people want, yet still have enough to win championships.
That's easy for you to say when you're not footing the bill, but he's not trying to rebuild. He's trying to put together a team, one in which you can be very good without having a star at every position.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 04:02 AM
Does anyone get the sense that the Yankees are, to an extent, 'rebuilding'? I hate to even use that term because they should be in the playoff hunt again next year.

But I almost get the sense that what we see is what we get. I don't see many more major moves, simply because I don't see a lot out there. You almost get the sense that the front office is going to tweak this team a little bit, see if this current cast of players can win it all, and if not, they will just look ahead to a future of A-Rod, Cano, Wang and others while spending a bit more next offseason when a contract like Mussina is finished.

Not necessarily saying that is a bad thing either, but just a thought.
The Yankees aren't rebuilding, but they clearly didn't like the choices this off-season. They decided to bide their time, acquire some less expensive, but still effective players and then wait for better players to become available to them. At the same time, let their own best prospects advance further along in their system and with good results on the field they improve their value to the Yankees and whatever trading partners the Yankees may have in the future.

Folks, the Yankees finally have a structured gameplan, one in which they're executing without acting like they're at K-Mart for a Blue Light Sale.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 04:55 AM
This article might interest those that think Cashman is sitting on his hands and not doing anything. Cashman is right about the market being inflated in regard to the asking price for certain players.

To the chagrin of general manager Pat Gillick, who is balking at the $7 million-and-up asking price for what he considers staunch mediocrity, the current free-agent market for starters doesn't suit the Phillies' taste - not for Matt Morris or for any other midlevel name that has been floated.

Gillick has discovered that no team is willing to surrender the top-flight starter the Phillies wanted for All-Star rightfielder Bobby Abreu. Also, no team values part-time starter Jason Michaels as much as the Phillies; contrary to two other reports, it is believed it was Michaels, not Abreu, whom the Phillies were discussing with the Dodgers in exchange for starters Derek Lowe or Brad Penny. Finally, any interest from clubs in leftfielder Pat Burrell has been tepid, at best.

"We've got one or two [trade] situations where we could possibly do something," Gillick said yesterday afternoon. "Those two situations don't look as good as they did 2 or 3 days ago."
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/13356049.htm

rajah
12-08-05, 07:08 AM
Joke all you want guys, but beyond Farnsworth, the Yankees are yet to address any of their many holes, while teams like the Sox and Jays are getting creative with ways to help their teams this year and following years, for better or for worse. The Yanks on the other hand, let the winter meetings go by with nothing more to say than that they will continue to talk with Bernie Williams.

As a fan I have to question if the organization really had a plan going into this offseason, or if they were just going to see what happens.

Now I am not saying the sky is falling, but it would be nice to see some sign of a plan from the Yankees, a team that I invest my time and money to support.

The Jays are getting creative? You call those inflated contracts to Ryan and Burnett creative? They are spending money to get their payroll up to a level that will still be less than one half of the Yankees. The Y's already are committed.

The Red Sox also have more payroll flexibility, but the trade for Beckett was possible because their minor league system is much stronger at the moajor league ready level than the y's because of a series of terrible Yankee drafts.
Cashman really does not have the money or the players to be too creative.

The Y's have a plan. It is just not the plan you want, which apparently is to keep the payroll up with the usual flashy off season signings, regardless of what you might say to deny this.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 07:32 AM
I have a serious question Besides a blockbuster trade, which we don't have the chips for, what the hell could he be doing that needs to develop this slowly and this secretly?

What GM tells the media/fans the moves they are making? Did Boston call up the Globe before landing Beckett and say "I just want to inform the fans so they don't lose sleep we are in the process of trading for Josh Beckett"?

As for why we haven't made moves, you do realize that by signing players before yesterday, we automatically lose draft picks to the teams the players we sign played on in 2005. THat would be dumb just to appease fans.

ReggieBar
12-08-05, 07:34 AM
The sky fell last off season when the Yanks signed Pavano, Wright, Womack and traded for Randy.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 07:40 AM
You have a legitimate concern and it isn't any more wrong or right than somebody actually believing that there's this master plan and that everything will be alright.

My guess is that there is no concrete plan and that the Yanks are just waiting to see what shakes out. Maybe they'll get lucky. Maybe not. Farnworth as a stepping stone to bigger and better things in the works is OK. Farnsworth's signing alone is not O.K.

I'm assuming that in the middle of your anti-Cashman campaign that you are aware that if we signed players prior to yesterday we automatically lose a draft pick (depending on the classification of the player) as it is before the salary arbitration deadline didn't you? Or is it that important that us fans know NOW exactly what our 2006 team will be that who needs prospects for the minors, we can just continue our 2000's approach of overpaying for average talent.

ojo
12-08-05, 07:49 AM
i think by hanging on to wang, cano, duncan, hughes and phillips the yankees have shown a TON of creativity.

though i would have traded wang by now. he's at what will probably be his career-high in value NOW and should have been dealt for a good CF. time will tell though.

Yanks Lifer
12-08-05, 07:51 AM
This article might interest those that think Cashman is sitting on his hands and not doing anything. Cashman is right about the market being inflated in regard to the asking price for certain players.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/13356049.htm

Gillick is fantasizing about his players as much as Boras is about his clients if he thinks Jason Michaels is worth Lowe or Penny! I'm not saying either Lowe or Penny are Cy Young, but they're closer to Cy Young than Michaels is to Joe DiMaggio. Come on!!! :giveup:

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 07:52 AM
I'm assuming that in the middle of your anti-Cashman campaign that you are aware that if we signed players prior to yesterday we automatically lose a draft pick (depending on the classification of the player) as it is before the salary arbitration deadline didn't you? Or is it that important that us fans know NOW exactly what our 2006 team will be that who needs prospects for the minors, we can just continue our 2000's approach of overpaying for average talent.

So, as Cashman's spokesman, are you telling us that THIS was Cashman's plan all along and why no trades or signings (other than Farnsworth) were made to date, and that it's only a ploy saying he is happy with Giambi and Phillips at 1B, unlike the winter of 2003 when he said he was happy with the Yanks 2004 pitching (starting and relief) and actually meant it?

And by the way, just what free agents are left to play center and 1B, now that we won't lose a draft pick? Unless of course, it's Giambi and Phillips at 1B.

Our 2000's "approach" got us into the playoffs every single year, in case you forget. Who wins in the post season is a crapshoot. And quite honestly, I don't care if the payroll is $180M or $220M. For the Yanks to make it every year they had to spend it more wisely than Monday morn QB's give them credit for, unless you include the $16M and ridiculous perks that Kevin Brown got, and we all know who was wise enough to trade for him and take on the worst salary known to mankind and get the very least for it.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 07:53 AM
This article might interest those that think Cashman is sitting on his hands and not doing anything. Cashman is right about the market being inflated in regard to the asking price for certain players.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/13356049.htm

exactly, but if GS were involved, he would waive his magic wand and make the player come here :P

Patience needs to return to our approach. We tried the rushing out there to make moves last year and got Wright and Pavano before anyone else could. I guess to some a bad move is better than no move.

ojo
12-08-05, 07:54 AM
So, as Cashman's spokesman, are you telling us that THIS was Cashman's plan all along and why no trades or signings (other than Farnsworth) were made to date, and that it's only a ploy saying he is happy with Giambi and Phillips at 1B, unlike the winter of 2003 when he said he was happy with the Yanks 2004 pitching (starting and relief) and actually meant it?

And by the way, just what free agents are left to play center and 1B, now that we won't lose a draft pick? Unless of course, it's Giambi and Phillips at 1B.

Our 2000's "approach" got us into the playoffs every single year, in case you forget. Who wins in the post season is a crapshoot. And quite honestly, I don't care if the payroll is $180M or $220M. For the Yanks to make it every year they had to spend it more wisely than Monday morn QB's give them credit for, unless you include the $16M and ridiculous perks that Kevin Brown got, and we all know who was wise enough to trade for him.

i think giambi/phillips at 1b are some of the least of the yankees' concerns. let the kid play. if giambi gets hurt go find a viable stop-gap to back up phillips. but the kid's earned a shot.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 07:56 AM
So, as Cashman's spokesman, are you telling us that THIS was Cashman's plan all along and why no trades or signings (other than Farnsworth) were made to date, and that it's only a ploy saying he is happy with Giambi and Phillips at 1B, unlike the winter of 2003 when he said he was happy with the Yanks 2004 pitching (starting and relief) and actually meant it?

And by the way, just what free agents are left to play center and 1B, now that we won't lose a draft pick? Unless of course, it's Giambi and Phillips at 1B.

Our 2000's "approach" got us into the playoffs every single year, in case you forget. Who wins in the post season is a crapshoot. And quite honestly, I don't care if the payroll is $180M or $220M. For the Yanks to make it every year they had to spend it more wisely than Monday morn QB's give them credit for, unless you include the $16M and ridiculous perks that Kevin Brown got, and we all know who was wise enough to trade for him.

I'm saying that he is not going to tell us his exact plans. No smart GM would. OUr 90's approach (more like we are doing now) got us 4 World Series rings! I do care what the payroll is when the payroll limits us in the moves we can make and that's where we are now. How about the pen? If we had gone out there and gotten another set up man like some are saying it would have cost us a pick but hey, just so we know exactly what the plan is, that's all that matters.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 07:57 AM
i think giambi/phillips at 1b are some of the least of the yankees' concerns. let the kid play. if giambi gets hurt go find a viable stop-gap to back up phillips. but the kid's earned a shot.

I also have confidence that if Phillips is indeed our 1B (I dont think he is) that he can replicate the production Tino gave us with the exception of that 10 day stretch in May. If we take a few steps back and look rationally, on 12/8/05, we are not that dissimiliar to the team we ended the season on. You'd think by some reactions that we need to totally remake the team.

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 08:01 AM
I'm saying that he is not going to tell us his exact plans. No smart GM would. OUr 90's approach (more like we are doing now) got us 4 World Series rings! I do care what the payroll is when the payroll limits us in the moves we can make and that's where we are now. How about the pen? If we had gone out there and gotten another set up man like some are saying it would have cost us a pick but hey, just so we know exactly what the plan is, that's all that matters.

GR there is no exact formula that gets you 4 rings. No team will ever duplicate the players and mix the Yanks had from their farm and FA signings. Mo's, Jeter's, Bernie's and Pettittes aren't just waiting around for the Yanks to draft them one day.

That's not to say to ignore youth, but when the plan is to get young on one hand YET cream his pants over a declining 35 year old player who never wanted to come to NY, to play center, when he's not even a CF, AND for 3 years till he's 38, on the other hand, then something is terribly wrong or suspicious in Yankeeland.

Funny how well this went over with some Cashman fans who are preaching that his plan is youth and cutting payroll.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 08:03 AM
GR there is no exact formula that gets you 4 rings. No team will ever duplicate the players and mix the Yanks had from their farm and FA signings. Mo's, Jeter's, Bernie's and Pettittes aren't just waiting around for the Yanks to draft them one day.

That's not to say to ignore youth, but when the plan is to get young on one hand YET cream his pants over a declining 35 year old player who never wanted to come to NY, to play center, when he's not even a CF, AND for 3 years till he's 38, on the other hand, then something is terribly wrong or suspicious in Yankeeland.

You also don't get the opportunities to develop the Jeter's the Mo's, the Pettittes when you give the picks away because we have to sign Jaret Wright because we have to make a move fast.

As for Giles, if he came here Giles would have been in RF and Sheffield as the DH.

ojo
12-08-05, 08:05 AM
I also have confidence that if Phillips is indeed our 1B (I dont think he is) that he can replicate the production Tino gave us with the exception of that 10 day stretch in May. If we take a few steps back and look rationally, on 12/8/05, we are not that dissimiliar to the team we ended the season on. You'd think by some reactions that we need to totally remake the team.

i know he's no spring chicken here but he demonstrated power and the ability to hit for average/get on base at AAA. let's see what he can do in a couple hundred AB. this is precisely how you discover hidden gems/late bloomers.

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 08:05 AM
You also don't get the opportunities to develop the Jeter's the Mo's, the Pettittes when you give the picks away because we have to sign Jaret Wright because we have to make a move fast.

As for Giles, if he came here Giles would have been in RF and Sheffield as the DH. Wherever Giles played he was offered a ridiculous contract to play till he's 38. So we pick and choose the youth and wise-spending according to Cashman's so-called plan? So if Cashman wants him, even if it's against the plan everyone is excited about, it's OK?

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 08:06 AM
I also have confidence that if Phillips is indeed our 1B (I dont think he is) that he can replicate the production Tino gave us with the exception of that 10 day stretch in May. If we take a few steps back and look rationally, on 12/8/05, we are not that dissimiliar to the team we ended the season on. You'd think by some reactions that we need to totally remake the team.


well...seeing as how we didnt win a title last year...that means the team does have problems that need to be fixed. If the philosophy is to "stand pat" because the options on the market arent good ones, and just go into 2006 as the same team as 2005...then fine. Just dont expect a ring next year.

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 08:07 AM
Gotta run to the office, so if I don't answer I'm not ignoring you GR. You're STILL one of my favorite people here and don't want you to think a difference in opinion changes that. :)

WebsterMulligan
12-08-05, 08:07 AM
GR there is no exact formula that gets you 4 rings. No team will ever duplicate the players and mix the Yanks had from their farm and FA signings. Mo's, Jeter's, Bernie's and Pettittes aren't just waiting around for the Yanks to draft them one day.

There is no exact formula, but I will gladly take the pre-1996 approach as opposed to the way the Yanks handled things post-2000.

As Yankee fans, we may have to endure a lean year or two, in order to allow some prospects in the minors to develop. I'm willing to wait it out.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 08:08 AM
i know he's no spring chicken here but he demonstrated power and the ability to hit for average/get on base at AAA. let's see what he can do in a couple hundred AB. this is precisely how you discover hidden gems/late bloomers.


Phillips cant hit a breaking ball, he looks like Cerrano in Major League flailing away cluelessly at them. There is a reason why he has been stuck at AAA for so long. You can be a good hitter at AAA without having to figure out off-speed pitches. You cannot be a good hitter on the major league level and not be able to handle breaking balls.

ojo
12-08-05, 08:11 AM
Phillips cant hit a breaking ball, he looks like Cerrano in Major League flailing away cluelessly at them. There is a reason why he has been stuck at AAA for so long. You can be a good hitter at AAA without having to figure out off-speed pitches. You cannot be a good hitter on the major league level and not be able to handle breaking balls.

and he's obviously shown *some* ability to learn hence his still being in the system/getting a shot.

we'll see what happens.

ring403
12-08-05, 08:19 AM
Phillips cant hit a breaking ball, he looks like Cerrano in Major League flailing away cluelessly at them. There is a reason why he has been stuck at AAA for so long. You can be a good hitter at AAA without having to figure out off-speed pitches. You cannot be a good hitter on the major league level and not be able to handle breaking balls.
Are you basing your opinion on his 40 big league AB's last season, or do you have knowledge of his minor league scouting reports?

effdamets
12-08-05, 08:20 AM
well...seeing as how we didnt win a title last year...that means the team does have problems that need to be fixed. If the philosophy is to "stand pat" because the options on the market arent good ones, and just go into 2006 as the same team as 2005...then fine. Just dont expect a ring next year.
I disagree with this because I think the teams pitching will be much, much better than last year. Let's not forget, after the abismal 11-19 start last season, the Yankees posted the BEST record in the majors. That's not too shabby. With a (NY) year under Johnson's belt, the emergence of Chacon and Wang, the starting rotation has to be better. Also, I can't imagine that 4 of our 5 starters will go out with injuries this year.

I think we can expect each offensive player to have the same season, because which Yankee played way beyond his capabilities last season? Cano? Maybe. But realistically, I think the kid will be even better this season, especially after the all-star break. And you can expect for Sheffield to have a wonderful season as this is his walk year, no? (he has an uncanny history of having great numbers in his walk year)

The team, right now, will be better defensively (see center field), just as good offensively, and the starting pitching will be better because you have to expect better health. This in turn, makes the bull pen more rested and more effective later in the season, and into the playoffs.

Do I "expect" a championship? You can't. Not in this fouled-up Selig system. With so many teams in the mix for the World Series title, anything can happen, like a dropped third strike or something. But, you can expect to compete for championships, which is not out of the question for this present Yankees team.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 08:25 AM
Are you basing your opinion on his 40 big league AB's, or do you have knowledge of his minor league scouting reports?


I'm judging this on the fact that he has been stuck at the same level for awhile now. This happens alot....the classic AAAA player. AAA pitchers make alot more mistakes...then dont have the full command of breaking balls and they dont fully understand how to attack the opposing hitters weakness. You can be clueless against offspeed pitches, yet still hit well in AAA. Judging by what I saw from him, he doesnt know how to hit an off-speed pitch. And honestly it doesnt surprise me, considering his age and how he has been stuck in AAA. You put the two together and it makes sense as to why he puts up big numbers in AAA, yet he doesnt get a chance or why teams arent clamoring to trade for him. Andy Phillips has zero trade value....why?? Because the scouts see his weakness and know he wont be very successful on the big league level.

ring403
12-08-05, 08:29 AM
Andy Phillips has zero trade value....why?? Because the scouts see his weakness and know he wont be very successful on the big league level.Actually, my understanding is that the scouting reports say his downfall is his fielding, and that he projects to be a good major league hitter. I'm just wondering if there is any factual evidence, not speculation based on a handful of AB's, that Phillips cannot hit breaking pitches.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 08:31 AM
I disagree with this because I think the teams pitching will be much, much better than last year. Let's not forget, after the abismal 11-19 start last season, the Yankees posted the BEST record in the majors. That's not too shabby. With a (NY) year under Johnson's belt, the emergence of Chacon and Wang, the starting rotation has to be better. Also, I can't imagine that 4 of our 5 starters will go out with injuries this year.

I think we can expect each offensive player to have the same season, because which Yankee played way beyond his capabilities last season? Cano? Maybe. But realistically, I think the kid will be even better this season, especially after the all-star break. And you can expect for Sheffield to have a wonderful season as this is his walk year, no? (he has an uncanny history of having great numbers in his walk year)

The team, right now, will be better defensively (see center field), just as good offensively, and the starting pitching will be better because you have to expect better health. This in turn, makes the bull pen more rested and more effective later in the season, and into the playoffs.

Do I "expect" a championship? You can't. Not in this fouled-up Selig system. With so many teams in the mix for the World Series title, anything can happen, like a dropped third strike or something. But, you can expect to compete for championships, which is not out of the question for this present Yankees team.


I agree that our offense should be relatively the same as it was last year....900 runs scored or so. But I think where we differ is our evaluation of our pitchers. I see this staff as being worse.

1) RJ...lets remember he is 42. How many 42 year olds actually get better?? I really dont think its fair to assume RJ will repeat his 2004 numbers. I think we will be fortunate to get a 30 start season from him with numbers similar to 2005.

2) Mussina....I think his decline is underway, he went backwards last season. His fastball isnt what it used to be...and he has more trouble locating it. I'm really scared that this could be the year he really takes a huge step backwards.

3) Wang...the one guy in our rotation who I think can and will improve.

4) Chacon....I do think he will be solid. However, its hard to go anywhere but down from the 2.85 ERA he posted as a Yankee.

5) Pavano/Wright....2 huge mistake signings. We got suckered into giving big money deals to mediocre pitchers coming off fluky good seasons. And now we are paying for it. I have no clue what to expect from either of them, although I dont think either of them will help us all that much.

MiamiKat
12-08-05, 08:32 AM
It's laughable to say the Yankees have no plan. Their overall strategy is quite evident: Fill in the few holes the team has -- which are far fewer than the Red Sox or Blue Jays had going into the offseason, BTW -- wisely and cost-effectively given the limited resources available. (Not cheaply, cost-effectively. And resources include more than just $$$.)

This is being done as follows:

- Stop being a stooge and overpaying for overrated free agents.
- Don't give teams draft picks for FAs if it's not necessary.
- Don't trade away the farm (again) just as it's developing in exchange for talent that might be around for only a year or two. The Yankees are being shut out of a lot of potential deals for precisely this reason -- the few prospects from those awful earlier drafts who would be ML-ready have already been traded away. Or, like Cano and Wang, are seen as important parts of the team moving forward.
- Target reasonable players and sign them. For example, Farnsworth was the best available reliever on the FA market at the time. The Yankees signed him. For less money than he was offered elsewhere. (Ryan and Giles were never playing for the Yankees, BTW.)
- No need to rush into bad deals out of desperation. The season doesn't start December 15th.

Before anyone makes some snarky remark like "well, I guess you've seen the memo then", in life one needs to be able to look at a situation from the outside and discern what is going on. If you're in business, you need to do ongoing reviews of your competition. And, much like a smart competitor, no way is Cashman going to be so transparent as to tip his hand on specific tactics and targeted players.

The Yankees have been criticized recently mercilessly for "having an all-star at every position". So now it seems people here seem to want to fall back to that, even though it's not gotten the Yankees any rings over the last few years. Or trade away the few inexpensive, good players left for more question marks. It's crazy.

If the Yankees go into Spring Training with a platoon of Bubba Crosby and Bernie Williams at CF, I'll be as concerned as some people are right now. But until then, I'll wait and see how the rest of the offseason unfolds.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 08:34 AM
Actually, my understanding is that the scouting reports say his downfall is his fielding, and that he projects to be a good major league hitter. I'm just wondering if there is any factual evidence, not speculation based on a handful of AB's, that Phillips cannot hit breaking pitches.

I just believe that with his excellent minor league numbers...if scouts thought he would be that good of a ML hitter...someone would have wanted to trade for him. They obviously see something wrong with him. Perhaps his fielding is below average, but if he had a bat people thought would be good on this level...somebody would want him and would find a place on their team for him.

RobRiv
12-08-05, 08:48 AM
Catchy thread title.
The following line from a Radiohead song called "2+2=5" comes to mind:

"Go and tell the king that the sky's falling in when it's not
no, it's not
maybe not."

Wonder if Cashman has any Radiohead in his Ipod.

effdamets
12-08-05, 08:51 AM
I agree that our offense should be relatively the same as it was last year....900 runs scored or so. But I think where we differ is our evaluation of our pitchers. I see this staff as being worse.

1) RJ...lets remember he is 42. How many 42 year olds actually get better?? I really dont think its fair to assume RJ will repeat his 2004 numbers. I think we will be fortunate to get a 30 start season from him with numbers similar to 2005.

2) Mussina....I think his decline is underway, he went backwards last season. His fastball isnt what it used to be...and he has more trouble locating it. I'm really scared that this could be the year he really takes a huge step backwards.

3) Wang...the one guy in our rotation who I think can and will improve.

4) Chacon....I do think he will be solid. However, its hard to go anywhere but down from the 2.85 ERA he posted as a Yankee.

5) Pavano/Wright....2 huge mistake signings. We got suckered into giving big money deals to mediocre pitchers coming off fluky good seasons. And now we are paying for it. I have no clue what to expect from either of them, although I dont think either of them will help us all that much.
These are good points.

Mussina is a concern, no doubt. And until he shows me otherwise, I'll be nervous everytime he takes the mound. However, I think when RJ came here, everyone was 'expecting' 8 innings, 4 hits, 1ER, every time he pitched. I firmly believe that he can replicate those numbers from last season, which weren't awful.

As far as Chacon goes, if the rotation is set up properly, Chacon can succeed. He is more of a finesse pitcher, therefore (my opinion only) he should not follow a finesse type pitcher. Opposing players get comfortable with their timing on finesse pitcher #1, then the next night, Chacon comes in, and the batters are all over his stuff.

Wang will be Wang. His stuff translates into major league effectiveness for a pitcher. We have hope that his seemingly yearly occurrance of shoulder problems doesn't happen this year. It's hard to pitch from the DL.

And Pavano showed signs last season of being effective, however, I think you are right in saying that we gave him big money and he is a 'back of the rotation' type. With something to prove this year, he should help this team way more than last year.

Wright? He blows! People want this guy to pitch out of the pen? Might as well light a fire with kerosene and then try to put it our with jet-fuel! Eff him. The Yankees should just cut him because they certainly aren't going to be able to trade him. He's a nice guy, but we are looking for pitchers.

Overall, I think the continuity of the staff will make them more effective. There is an injection of younger guys here that should help save the pen, something we all know needs to be effective in the post season. Torre has got to have trust in more than Mariano going in the ALDS, and with a more rested pen, he finally just might.

ComeBackShane47
12-08-05, 08:58 AM
Now, that Cashman knows which players were offered arbitration, he will go to work in filling in the blanks for the bullpen, CF and DH.

You are right, the Yankees do need to keep their draft picks and build from within a little. I would have just liked to see some resemblance of a plan.

goin for 27
12-08-05, 08:59 AM
You really can't say the sky is falling on December 8th. The Winter Meetings are underway, and transactions should happen.

One negative was not being able to get Ryan, and losing Gordon. However, these were truly uncontrollables, and the Yanks, like every team in baseball surely has a plan B.

I still firmly believe that Bubba will not start in CF. Can't believe that Cashman cannot improve there, even moderately.

I still think that the pen will be bolstered along the line, Cashman has already publicly stated that they need to fill in around Farnsworth.

Also, again with no basis for this, I really think that there will be something big that no one sees coming. Personally, I think that it will be Sheffield going for 2 players ready to go now. I have NO basis for this, it is simply a gut feeling from everything that I have read.

The only major disappointment that I had last year was the Lieber snafu. The only thing this season so far that is very bothersome is bringing back Bernie. Certainly if this is the team on Opening Day, I would have concerns, I just don't mind that we were not first to act as in other years.

Chambliss
12-08-05, 09:21 AM
It's way too early panic--the fallout from the arbitration deadline is just coming into focus. What I'm curious about is what moves people want to see? I haven't kept a scorecard, but it seems (1) that very few people want to trade Cano, Wang, Duncan or Hughes and (2) the free agent market is limited because of a scarcity of talent in our areas of need/or the talent that fills holes wants an unreasonable deal (e.g. Damon). I understand that people want Cashman to be "doing something"? But what is it?

jcan411
12-08-05, 09:22 AM
The sky fell last off season when the Yanks signed Pavano, Wright, Womack and traded for Randy.

I agree. We really screwed the pooch last year with these signings. I will, to this day, nver understand the wirght deal. Everyone and their mother knew he would suck. The same with pavano, so overhyped it was sickening and everyone said it. one fairly dominant season does not make a solid number 2.

While RJ was good for us last year, he is a rental for a complete team, not a building block for the future. Womack is, well, Womack. He sucks and always will and should never wear the uniform again.

We need to suck it up and change things. If we cannot afford top talent we need to blow up the team a little and deal with possibley a down year.

Keep Jeter, AROD, Matsui, Chacon, RJ (because we will never get value), wang, cano, mussina, farnsworth, mariano.

Make everyone else expendable. I mean work hard to get rid of them. LEts stock our system for the future and get some young guys out there with a future.

Sheffield would be desireable for a contender
Posada would be desirable for a contender
Pavano we could get something for of lesser value
Womack just get rid of
Wright just get rid of
Giambi have to eat some the money but lets get the younglings out there
bwilliams DO NOT resign

Lets try to turn the page and move on.

ComeBackShane47
12-08-05, 09:32 AM
Realistically, this team cant go into rebuild mode until Jeter and Arod are gone. So its not worth mentioning until then. With so much money spread over so few players, all with no trade clauses, it will be impossible for the Yankees to really rebuild. But there really is no need to. This team was 9 wins from a world series last year, and last years team sucked. Simply by not putting Womack out there for 300 abs gives the team an extra win.

RobRiv
12-08-05, 09:38 AM
We need to suck it up and change things. If we cannot afford top talent we need to blow up the team a little and deal with possibley a down year.

Keep Jeter, AROD, Matsui, Chacon, RJ (because we will never get value), wang, cano, mussina, farnsworth, mariano.

Make everyone else expendable. I mean work hard to get rid of them. LEts stock our system for the future and get some young guys out there with a future.

Sheffield would be desireable for a contender
Posada would be desirable for a contender
Pavano we could get something for of lesser value
Womack just get rid of
Wright just get rid of
Giambi have to eat some the money but lets get the younglings out there
bwilliams DO NOT resign

Lets try to turn the page and move on.

Funny. The miserable morning after the Yankees were eliminated by the Angels, I wrote an e-mail to my friends suggesting that the Yanks spend the winter getting rid of every single player not named Jeter or Rivera. I really meant it. Clean house. Do over.

I don't feel that way today. I look at the Yanks and their various deficiencies and still see a contender.

Even if the Yankees would attempt something as radically insane as a "fire sale" it probably wouldn't benefit the Yanks in the long run.

Teams would offer the Yanks essentially nothing in return for even our top players. That's how the rest of baseball seems to do business with the Yanks these days. Everybody wants to pick their pockets.

Snatch Catch
12-08-05, 09:42 AM
I'm not worried at all.

The only poor decision that has been made, in my opinion, is to offer Bernie arb.

However, even that is not a poor decision if Cash is intent on filling the holes on the team and idiot proofing Bernie's return so that Joe can NEVER play him in the field, and he truly does fill Rube's role of PH/DH. I think Bernie can still hit enough to do well in that position.

Yankee Clipper
12-08-05, 09:43 AM
We're a team full of weaknesses that the GM doesn't seem to be addressing. The other teams in the division are improving. Bad combo.

our team's biggest weakness was health. If we give us more depth on the bench and in the pen we'll be fine for next year. seriously our team won 95 games on fumes, I'm pretty sure we'll be better next year, even if the other rivals look better on paper.

Chambliss
12-08-05, 09:44 AM
Realistically, this team cant go into rebuild mode until Jeter and Arod are gone. So its not worth mentioning until then. With so much money spread over so few players, all with no trade clauses, it will be impossible for the Yankees to really rebuild. But there really is no need to. This team was 9 wins from a world series last year, and last years team sucked. Simply by not putting Womack out there for 300 abs gives the team an extra win.


I'm with you. Teams that invest 18M for three years of Kyle Farnsworth aren't in a rebuilding mode. But, I disagree that last year's team "sucked." They won 95 games after a horrific April and May. Last year's team easily could have won 100 games.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 09:53 AM
I'm with you. Teams that invest 18M for three years of Kyle Farnsworth aren't in a rebuilding mode. But, I disagree that last year's team "sucked." They won 95 games after a horrific April and May. Last year's team easily could have won 100 games.

you could also look at it as we got lucky when we struck gold with Chacon and Small...who pitched alot better then their career numbers would indicate (especially Small). What are the chances something like that happens again?

IronCaballo4
12-08-05, 09:54 AM
If we give us more depth on the bench and in the pen we'll be fine for next year.

re-signing Bernie is definitely not a good start in that department

NelsonMuntz
12-08-05, 10:01 AM
well...seeing as how we didnt win a title last year...that means the team does have problems that need to be fixed. If the philosophy is to "stand pat" because the options on the market arent good ones, and just go into 2006 as the same team as 2005...then fine. Just dont expect a ring next year.
Not only did we not win a title, we barely made the playoffs. I am concerned about going into 2006 with essentially the same team unless we're prepared to accept the possibility of missing the playoffs and not compound the problem with a panic trade at the deadline. In other words, if the plan is to rebuild the farm then we need to stick to the plan even if it means suffering through a down season (by Yankee fan standards) next year.

jpao89
12-08-05, 10:08 AM
I think Cashman may have outsmarted himself. I don't know if he is trying to paint a picture that we're not desperate, but he's fooling absolutely no one. And unless he has Brad Lidge and Andruw Jones waiting behind door number three, the idea that nothing seems to be getting done is kind of alarming.

And now, the bad news. If the reports are true and the Yankees lost 80 something million bucks last year, then you can forget any big moves for a few seasons. Those big moves made the last five years are coming back to bite this franchise in the arse. If the Yankees can't afford to sign any high priced FA's (and they shouldn't this year anyway given the low quality of the market) then they will have to rely on their farm more which means no big move trades.

Alternatively, it could just be that the Yankees realized that taking the "one more piece" approach to trying to win the WS was like chasing your tail and they have finally decided to let it ride with what they have and rebuild. You know, have a bit more of a long term plan rather than going year by year.

dabomb2045
12-08-05, 10:12 AM
And now, the bad news. If the reports are true and the Yankees lost 80 something million bucks last year, then you can forget any big moves for a few seasons. Those big moves made the last five years are coming back to bite this franchise in the arse. If the Yankees can't afford to sign any high priced FA's (and they shouldn't this year anyway given the low quality of the market) then they will have to rely on their farm more which means no big move trades.

Alternatively, it could just be that the Yankees realized that taking the "one more piece" approach to trying to win the WS was like chasing your tail and they have finally decided to let it ride with what they have and rebuild. You know, have a bit more of a long term plan rather than going year by year.


the only negative with rebuilding...is that by the time we are good enough to win a title...Jeter and ARod may be past their primes

38Special
12-08-05, 10:15 AM
seriously we're doomed folks

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 10:17 AM
the only negative with rebuilding...is that by the time we are good enough to win a title...Jeter and ARod may be past their primes

Exactly. And there's no rebuilding when besides A-Rod, Jeter and Sheff, you've invested 14 million/yr. for the next 2 years on a 42 year old pitcher who's your ace and there's nobody close in your entire system to supplant him.

Dooley Womack
12-08-05, 10:23 AM
seriously we're doomed folks

Droughts happen unexpectedly, and we're not immune because we're the New York Yankees and have been in the playoffs since '95.

There are no guaranteed fixes either on any level.

ieddyi
12-08-05, 10:37 AM
I'm not worried at all.

The only poor decision that has been made, in my opinion, is to offer Bernie arb.

However, even that is not a poor decision if Cash is intent on filling the holes on the team and idiot proofing Bernie's return so that Joe can NEVER play him in the field, and he truly does fill Rube's role of PH/DH. I think Bernie can still hit enough to do well in that position.

Exactly, the point is what could they have done that they didn't?

Sign Gordon to 3 years= no thanks

Sign RYan and Burnett to 5 year overpriced deals- no thanks

Let's see how things unfold

Re-signing Bernie doesn't make sense- why not use that roster spot on a better low cost option w/ upside

goin for 27
12-08-05, 10:49 AM
our team's biggest weakness was health. If we give us more depth on the bench and in the pen we'll be fine for next year. seriously our team won 95 games on fumes, I'm pretty sure we'll be better next year, even if the other rivals look better on paper.

Lots of moves remain to be seen, I stand by my earlier post that it is too soon to judge.

That said, if health is a concern, stay concerned. We have the oldest team in MLB, and we are another year older.

Also, this statement..


I'm pretty sure we'll be better next year, even if the other rivals look better on paper

...is just illogical and strange. You can't will the Yanks to be better, moves need to be made. (think that they will)

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 11:42 AM
Boston continues to be GMless and make effective moves.
Toronto continues to improve their team.
Cashman continues working with Bernie Williams and moving Womack for a ghost player at the moment.

Yeah, 2006 is looking great.

Mark19
12-08-05, 11:43 AM
Boston continues to be GMless and make effective moves.
Toronto continues to improve their team.
Cashman continues working with Bernie Williams and moving Womack for a ghost player at the moment.

Yeah, 2006 is looking great.

Hey, we locked up studs Dusty Bergmann, Chris Prieto and Jose Veras, break up the Yankees!

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 11:48 AM
I can't get over Boston managing to move Renteria to Atlanta. Apparently they;re looking to get Julio Lugo for the prospect they traded Renteria to get. If that doesn't work, their back up plan is trading Manny for Ervin Satana and Brandon Wood. They're also close to signing Damon to a 4 year deal according to the Herald.

JfromJersey
12-08-05, 12:26 PM
I thought the "We're Doomed" threads are only allowed during the regular season.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 12:36 PM
on 12/8/05, we are not that dissimiliar to the team we ended the season on. . That's not a good thing.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 01:28 PM
That's not a good thing.

I think it's interesting that a team that makes the playoffs is called a disaster. I think we as Yankee fans have gotten very, very spoiled over the last decade. I think what it tells me is that we are not that far from being where we need to be. I'm still waiting for a specific move that has gone by the wayside that we should have jumped on. We didn't have a Soriano to get a Wilkerson, to trade Wang and/or Cano for Pierre would be dumb. Giving 5 years to Ryan would have been crazy. I'm still, almost a day later from when the debate started for someone to tell me specifically what move we blew it on.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 01:33 PM
I think it's interesting that a team that makes the playoffs is called a disaster. .Its a team that basically tripped into the playoffs and made it on a technicality.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 01:35 PM
Its a team that basically tripped into the playoffs and made it on a technicality.

But they were in the playoffs. That's what matters.

Jace
12-08-05, 01:37 PM
Its a team that basically tripped into the playoffs and made it on a technicality.

We had the second best offense in the league and played the best of any American League team in the second half, led by Randy Johnson pitching like Randy Johnson. I realize we made it into the playoffs by 1 game (we didn't just get in on a technicality, we were up 1 game on Boston and basically forfeited the last game, and even if we had been 1 game down we still would have had a chance to beat Cleveland in a playoff for the wild card), but that doesn't make us a lucky fluke (I feel like thats what you are implying).

In any case we definitely didn't "trip" in as we finished pretty strong.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 01:38 PM
But they were in the playoffs. That's what matters.And with Boston and Toronto improving, the team that barely made it last year, with the horrifying prospect of Crosby and Phillips playing every day, minus maybe the best setup man in the league doesn't stand much of a chance unless they do something to improve.

JeffWeaverFan
12-08-05, 01:40 PM
We cannot go into 2006 with Bernie and Crosby as the two CFers on this team. If we do, this offseason a complete failure (and it will also continue to show why Beltran should have been the #1 priority last season).

ieddyi
12-08-05, 01:41 PM
We had the second best offense in the league and played the best of any American League team in the second half, led by Randy Johnson pitching like Randy Johnson. I realize we made it into the playoffs by 1 game (we didn't just get in on a technicality, we were up 1 game on Boston and basically forfeited the last game, and even if we had been 1 game down we still would have had a chance to beat Cleveland in a playoff for the wild card), but that doesn't make us a fluke.


We had the best offense in the league- bostons numbers were aided by playing at fenway


BP uses EQA and EQR which takes out the park factor-

THe yanks edged out the sawx in EQA and was ahead by quite a bit in EQR

WE had a torrid september-hardly backing into the playoffs

RhodeyYankee2638
12-08-05, 01:41 PM
And with Boston and Toronto improving, the team that barely made it last year, with the horrifying prospect of Crosby and Phillips playing every day, minus maybe the best setup man in the league doesn't stand much of a chance unless they do something to improve.

Our goal shouldn't be to get a bigger bat, or 1 incredible pitcher, like Toronot, simply distribute talent from 1-9 in the lineup. Right now our 1-5 are great, and our 6-9 are very questionabl. Clearly soomething needs to be done, but im not sure if anything is going to happen

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 01:42 PM
We cannot go into 2006 with Bernie and Crosby as the two CFers on this team. If we do, this offseason a complete failure (and it will also continue to show why Beltran should have been the #1 priority last season). No. Grossly overpsaying for that kind of production from Beltran isn't the answer either.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 01:42 PM
And with Boston and Toronto improving, the team that barely made it last year, with the horrifying prospect of Crosby and Phillips playing every day, minus maybe the best setup man in the league doesn't stand much of a chance unless they do something to improve.

The team turned around so much with Wang, Cano, Small & Chacon. Now that Kevin Brown isn't giving the team an automatic loss every 5 days, there in great shape as-is for next year.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 01:43 PM
No. Grossly overpsaying for that kind of production from Beltran isn't the answer either.

Exactly. Another season next year like the one he had this year and the Mets may be re-thinking their investment.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 01:44 PM
Our goal shouldn't be to get a bigger bat, or 1 incredible pitcher, like Toronot,Of course not. But we can't get worse while Toronto gets better and expect anything but disaster.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 01:45 PM
The team turned around so much with Wang, Cano, Small & Chacon. Now that Kevin Brown isn't giving the team an automatic loss every 5 days, there in great shape as-is for next year. We have no centerfielder, no designated hitter, and no bullpen. Not great shape, not good shape.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 01:47 PM
We have no centerfielder, no designated hitter, and no bullpen. Not great shape, not good shape.
When we have the same come Aprill 1st then worry.

goin for 27
12-08-05, 01:48 PM
The team turned around so much with Wang, Cano, Small & Chacon. Now that Kevin Brown isn't giving the team an automatic loss every 5 days, there in great shape as-is for next year.

Pssst, Kevin Brown made no starts until May, then only 4 starts after May was over. And in May, he was 4-2.

I am all over Wang/Cano, but to expect Small and Chacon to be very good is asking a lot.

As is includes Bubba Crosby in CF.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 01:49 PM
When we have the same come Aprill 1st then worry. I'm worrying because the legitimate options are going away.

I'll come out and say it. If come spring training, the Bubba Crosby and Andy Phillips are legitimate contenders for Centerfield and 1st base, we can not win.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 01:51 PM
I'm worrying because the legitimate options are going away.

I'll come out and say it. If come spring training, the Bubba Crosby and Andy Phillips are legitimate contenders for Centerfield and 1st base, we can not win.
What you don't know is what other legitimate options that might be or become available that you don't have any idea about.

Also, as of December 7th, what moves did you want Cashman to make?

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 01:54 PM
What you don't know is what other legitimate options that might be or become available that you don't have any idea about.

Also, as of December 7th, what moves did you want Cashman to make? I wanted him to make a real move for Olerud. I wanted him to go after Howry. I wanted him to go after Bradley. I wanted him to take a shot at Wilkerson before someone else did.

One3kid
12-08-05, 01:54 PM
Of course not. But we can't get worse while Toronto gets better and expect anything but disaster.


How did we get worse? We haven't done anything. If Farnsworth from Gordon makes us a disaster, then you guys really are spoiled.

Let's think back for a minute...Kevin Brown...Javy Vazquez...Carl Pavano. Any of those names ring a bell? Everyone was in these forums stroking each other when we signed them, just like Toronto fans are this month. How did that pan out for us? Just because they're the marquee names on the market doesn't mean they're stars. Burnett could flame, as I think he will, and be the disaster. Ryan has little track record, and a lot of pressure to close games he didn't have in Baltimore. The astroturf isn't greener up North guys.

Have faith that Cash finally has the control to do things, and its not the Tampa Mafia calling the shots. I mean, would 5 years to Ryan, Johnny Damon, and trading Cano/Wang for Abreu really make you feel better this morning? Because that's what would have been. Cashman's not an idiot, he knows what he's doing. That's why he has a big office in Yankee Stadium and we're posting to a forum on a website...

RhodeyYankee2638
12-08-05, 01:54 PM
Of course not. But we can't get worse while Toronto gets better and expect anything but disaster.

I agree, staying idol while the teams around us improve is not a good strategy

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 01:56 PM
I wanted him to make a real move for Olerud. I wanted him to go after Howry. I wanted him to go after Bradley. I wanted him to take a shot at Wilkerson before someone else did.
Olerud retired. Howry is overpaid. Bradley is still with the Dodgers while Wilkerson was traded for Soriano. So how in the world can you blame Cashman for any of those events?

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 01:57 PM
How did we get worse? We haven't done anything. If Farnsworth from Gordon makes us a disaster, then you guys really are spoiled.

I'm not a fan of Farnsworth at all. But that's not the point. We have made no attempts to surround him with anyone.

And as of right now, both Crosby and Phillips are in the starting lineup. That's a team battling out with the Orioles for third.

One3kid
12-08-05, 01:58 PM
I wanted him to make a real move for Olerud. I wanted him to go after Howry. I wanted him to go after Bradley. I wanted him to take a shot at Wilkerson before someone else did.
Olerud retired, so that option is out. So you'd pay $5 mil for Howry (we'd have to have outbid) but not $6 mil for Farnsworth? And when will you guys realize that there is a double standard for us with other teams? If Cash calls about Bradley, they want Duncan. If Boston, Philly, Oakland etc. call, they want a AA prospect. Bradley's not worth overbidding on. And not every call the GM makes shows up on ESPN.com or the Post. He probably did call on Wilkerson, but since it took Soriano to get him, what would you have offered?

And we can't win w/Phillips? So an aging Tino was better?

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 01:58 PM
I'm worrying because the legitimate options are going away.

I'll come out and say it. If come spring training, the Bubba Crosby and Andy Phillips are legitimate contenders for Centerfield and 1st base, we can not win.

Jeez...and if I told you that Robinson Cano would be our everyday 2B, along with Chien-Ming Wang and Shawn Chacon before the '05 season, you'd be saying the team would never make the post-season.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 01:59 PM
I'm not a fan of Farnsworth at all. But that's not the point. We have made no attempts to surround him with anyone.

And as of right now, both Crosby and Phillips are in the starting lineup. That's a team battling out with the Orioles for third.
So in other words, you want the Yankees to give up draft choices by signing some players before December 8th that they can sign afterwards without giving up those choices?

One3kid
12-08-05, 02:00 PM
I'm not a fan of Farnsworth at all. But that's not the point. We have made no attempts to surround him with anyone.

And as of right now, both Crosby and Phillips are in the starting lineup. That's a team battling out with the Orioles for third.
So that's 2 out of 9 spots in the order. Show me how Toronto has 1-7 that rivals us. You don't need 9 all-stars in the lineup. We have plenty. If those 2 can provide defense, they're worth it. Again, its December 8, how bout we let Cashman have a few weeks of offseason before we secure the nooses?

One3kid
12-08-05, 02:01 PM
Jeez...and if I told you that Robinson Cano would be our everyday 2B, along with Chien-Ming Wang and Shawn Chacon before the '05 season, you'd be saying the team would never make the post-season.
:clap: :clap: :clap: Exactly. I love how the people that complain we don't have a farm system, or any 'bargaining chips' are the same that complain when those rookies get a shot. If Phillips isn't good enough to play for us, why would someone want to trade for him?

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:02 PM
Olerud retired. Maybe he wouldn't have if we offered him a job.


Howry is overpaid. He's averaging less than four mil a year.


So how in the world can you blame Cashman for any of those events? I don't know. Maybe I'm overreacting. I just can't figure out what the hell this man was or is doing if not trying to address our glaring problems in a speedy and effective manner.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 02:03 PM
Maybe he wouldn't have if we offered him a job.

He's averaging less than four mil a year.

I don't know. Maybe I'm overreacting. I just can't figure out what the hell this man was or is doing if not trying to address our glaring problems in a speedy and effective manner.
Now, that I understand your thought pattern, I won't bother you any further to explain your opinion.

Sam18
12-08-05, 02:04 PM
This sh*t never gets old.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:05 PM
So that's 2 out of 9 spots in the order. Plus Posada. That's a third of our lineup that's more or less guaranteed to suck. That leaves no room for error with the other six.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 02:05 PM
Maybe he wouldn't have if we offered him a job.

He's averaging less than four mil a year.

I don't know. Maybe I'm overreacting. I just can't figure out what the hell this man was or is doing if not trying to address our glaring problems in a speedy and effective manner.

Yeah, b/c all the guys we signed speedily worked out great last year. *cough* Pavano *cough* Wright.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:09 PM
Yeah, b/c all the guys we signed speedily worked out great last year. *cough* Pavano *cough* Wright. You don't have to rush in without thinking, but I don't see the logic and sitting around and doing nothing is actually accomplishing. He's not fooling anyone into thinking that this team isn't desperate, and its just wasting crucial time.

One3kid
12-08-05, 02:09 PM
I don't know. Maybe I'm overreacting. I just can't figure out what the hell this man was or is doing if not trying to address our glaring problems in a speedy and effective manner.
Just a tad...Like someone said earlier, we can't do this add a piece year to year thing. Overpaying for Damon, Pierre, etc. to fill the need? Yeah, quick, done, you're happy. But what about in 2 years, still happy? Bubba can fill the void for a while, till a midseason trade opens up, or even till next season if need be. We don't need his bat. Health has a lot to do with things too. If all our pitching is healthy for a change, you have guys like Small, Wright, Chacon that could go into the pen. Then you don't have to go overpay for guys like Howry.

Speedy doesn't always equal effective...

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 02:12 PM
You don't have to rush in without thinking, but I don't see the logic and sitting around and doing nothing is actually accomplishing. He's not fooling anyone into thinking that this team isn't desperate, and its just wasting crucial time.

They're not desperate.

There are 162 games in a season. You're basically calling 2006 a failure before spring training has even began.

Stop thinking in the Steinbrenner mode where we need to spend huge money on aging players to fix holes that only create other holes.

There are plenty of CF options remaining. Personally, I'd like to see the Yankees get Kotsay, but if we're stuck with Bubba to start the season, so be it. Cashman isn't going to play 162 games with Bubba if he's a detriment to the team enough that they're out of any playoff hopes.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:13 PM
Just a tad...Like someone said earlier, we can't do this add a piece year to year thing. Overpaying for Damon, Pierre, etc. to fill the need? Yeah, quick, done, you're happy. But what about in 2 years, still happy? Bubba can fill the void for a while, I think you're underestimating just how poor Bubba Crosby can be.


Speedy doesn't always equal effective... Of course not, but I'd also rather not wait so long that we're locked into something-specifically a Crosby and Phillips situation.

PerfectCone
12-08-05, 02:13 PM
Great, the Jays just traded for Lyle Overbay. Another nice player that we could have used. I find it hard to believe we couldn't have made a deal here.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:17 PM
They're not desperate.

We have seven position players. One of which (Posada) is ona serious decline. We don't have a legitimate bullpen.

We're in pretty bad shape.


but if we're stuck with Bubba to start the season, so be it I don't think we can win like that.


Cashman isn't going to play 162 games with Bubba if he's a detriment to the team enough that they're out of any playoff hopes. Do you think its going to be easier to get a center fielder in the middle of the season?

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 02:18 PM
I think you're underestimating just how poor Bubba Crosby can be.


I think you're overestimating just how bad he can be. The guy is a perfectly competant player going .276 76 games with a .304 OBP.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:19 PM
I think you're overestimating just how bad he can be. The guy is a perfectly competant player going .276 76 games with a .304 OBP. He's been a sub-par player for seven years in the minor leagues. That's not the type of player that figures it out and hits competently over 500 at bats in the majors.

bostonyankeefan
12-08-05, 02:20 PM
I agree with being patient. The only guy who I wish we had made a bigger push for was B.J. Ryan, and he did not want to be a set up guy. There is no sense in overpaying for medicore talent to play CF. If our pitchers stay healthy, we will be able to make a mid-season trade with a team that needs a starting pitcher.

The Red Sox have blown up their team, and there is more to come, so I don't think that we have to worry too much about them running away with the division in the first half. Toronto might build an early lead with all of their new faces, but they have to stay healthy (esp. Halliday) to do so.

Stay the course Cash.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 02:21 PM
We have seven position players. One of which (Posada) is ona serious decline. We don't have a legitimate bullpen.

We're in pretty bad shape.

I don't think we can win like that.

Do you think its going to be easier to get a center fielder in the middle of the season?

1. Posada still has a few years left. If he splits his playing time with a backup catcher more than he has in the past, he can still be productive. He's also a switch hitter which increases his value.

2. Yes, I do think it will be easy to get a CF in the middle of the season
when there's a better idea as to which teams are out of the playoff race. Obviously it won't be as easy as it is in the off-season, but the positves in going with Crosby outweigh the negatives in getting an overpriced, aging veteran that will cost us our young phenoms.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 02:24 PM
He's been a sub-par player for seven years in the minor leagues. That's not the type of player that figures it out and hits competently over 500 at bats in the majors.

Nobody's expecting Crosby to be an All-Star player. You need to get out of the mode of thinking where every player must be all-star calibur to win a world championship.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:26 PM
1. Posada still has a few years left. He's 34 now. He's really on his last legs.


Yes, I do think it will be easy to get a CF in the middle of the season
when there's a better idea as to which teams are out of the playoff race. Obviously it won't be as easy as it is in the off-season, If its easier in the offseason, we should get it done then. If we think the deals are bad now, they'll be worse in July.


but the positves in going with Crosby I see none.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 02:28 PM
He's 34 now. He's really on his last legs.

If its easier in the offseason, we should get it done then. If we think the deals are bad now, they'll be worse in July.

I see none.

Of course you don't, because you're in the bridge-jumpers mode of thinking that unless every player on the team is in the top 3 of their position, the season will be a failure.

I have full faith that Brian Cashman knows what he's doing and will put the best possbile team out there that we can that doesn't screw us in the long run.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:28 PM
Nobody's expecting Crosby to be an All-Star player. You need to get out of the mode of thinking where every player must be all-star calibur to win a world championship. I've been asking for Wilkerson. That is something short of allstar. I want a major league player. Bubba does not fit that bill.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:29 PM
Of course you don't, because you're in the bridge-jumpers mode of thinking that unless every player on the team is in the top 3 of their position, the season will be a failure.

No, I think every player should be a major leaguer. Alot different than allstar.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 02:32 PM
It's Dec. 8. Have some patience.

welcometothebronx
12-08-05, 02:32 PM
We offered Bernie arb. We're doomed.

we've learned nothing.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:33 PM
It's Dec. 8. Have some patience. I'm trying. But I'm worried that we're going to wait too long and be locked into something bad.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 02:34 PM
Bernie > Sierra. We don't need two bench-riding, switch-hitting DHers.

27IsNext
12-08-05, 02:48 PM
Here's the thing, 27, and I know it's not your intent. The thread, by title alone, is making a mockery of some valid points and concerns that some of us have. I think it's better to comment on these things in the "Winter meetings, how are we doing" thread to keep it fair and balanced. Why would I want to "complain" here when the thread's title is inviting me or others to be mocked?

Point taken, as you can see.

I certainly acknowledge that valid points are being made by those that don't agree with this team's direction (although I vehemently disagree with those points ;) ). I just think the panic is a bit premature and ridiculous. But for the sake of being fair and balanced...

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 02:51 PM
Myers signed. If this is the beginning of some moves, I apologize to Cashman.

Jace
12-08-05, 02:58 PM
Myers signed. If this is the beginning of some moves, I apologize to Cashman.

I think judging him based on what other teams do, what you do or do not see in news stories about who Cashman is talking to, and before the end of an offseason is premature.

I think it is extremely possible Cashman/people working for him just do not tell the press who they are talking with. And in any case you just can't rate parts of an offseason. The goal is to be better by the end, not by the middle. I really see no reason to take the guy to task because we don't read enough rumors about him trying to get Wilkerson.

We just don't know what's going on and its silly to get too worried or happy before we see the end results. Its not like we are going to fire Cashman mid offseason anyway.

Edit: And Myers is one of those results. Its a good signing.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 03:03 PM
I think judging him based on what other teams do, what you do or do not see in news stories about who Cashman is talking to, and before the end of an offseason is premature.

I think it is extremely possible Cashman/people working for him just do not tell the press who they are talking with. I honestly dont know who, besides Damon, would be shrouded in secrecy.

hellonewman
12-08-05, 03:08 PM
Myers signed. If this is the beginning of some moves, I apologize to Cashman.


Edit: And Myers is one of those results. Its a good signing.

:confused: Source?

Edit: Never mind.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 03:09 PM
I honestly dont know who, besides Damon, would be shrouded in secrecy.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Zito situation was shrouded in secrecy. I can easily see the Yankees being involved on this in a 3-way deal to try and get Kotsay.

yankeebot
12-08-05, 03:11 PM
I honestly dont know who, besides Damon, would be shrouded in secrecy.
I don't think anything is shrouded in secrecy. I think that it is just Cashman's style to keep things quiet until there is something definite. Like the Womack deal or the Myers signing - how much chatter was there from him before either one was completed? It might make it more interesting for the fans if he were more talkative but it wouldn't really change anything.

wang+cano=future
12-08-05, 03:13 PM
The Myers signing is on MLB.com

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 03:16 PM
LOOGY - Check.

Next Up: NOMAH.

Come on Brian, make me look stupid. Please.

effdamets
12-08-05, 03:18 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Zito situation was shrouded in secrecy. I can easily see the Yankees being involved on this in a 3-way deal to try and get Kotsay.
In this situation, it wouldn't only be Cashman (or his people) not talking to the press, it would Oakland and EVERY OTHER team involved in a three way deal!

Maybe, Cashman has determined that NONE of the players on the market were worth pursuing, or worth a draft pick, or none of them would improve the team so greatly that we needed to overpay for them.

I think Cashman is just "spending the money wisely", like we have been bitching about for the last 3 years!

In order to have a good farm system, and a good major league club, something that us fans want (best of both worlds) you have to do the things that Brian is currently doing. Don't give up the picks, don't strap yourself to a big contract that you will regret when it only half way done. Wisely is the key word of the phrase here. Let's be wise. Let's not be the Florida Marlins and have success one year, then be sh*tty for the next 4. Let's be like the Yankees of the late 90's. Success every year and still continue to turn out good major league ball players.

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 03:24 PM
Excuse me, but why exactly do we need Barry Zito? Unless we're shipping the 'untouchable' Wang, then I don't want any part of Zito. We already have Chacon, Wang, Pavano, Wright, Johnson, Mussina plus Small, Henn, Proctor, and probably Leiter as spot starters. Beane is also going to want a lot for Zito, so say bye bye to our good prospects.

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 03:26 PM
We don't need Barry Zito. We could use Kotsay.

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 03:30 PM
We don't need Barry Zito. We could use Kotsay.

Beane wanted Cano and Wang for Kotsay. I am glad Cashman laughed at him and gave up that pipe dream.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 03:32 PM
And with Boston and Toronto improving, the team that barely made it last year, with the horrifying prospect of Crosby and Phillips playing every day, minus maybe the best setup man in the league doesn't stand much of a chance unless they do something to improve.

If our bullpen is in April as it is now (even with Myers now on board) and Phillips and Crosby are regulars, I'll agree. I don't believe they will.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 03:34 PM
I'm worrying because the legitimate options are going away.

I'll come out and say it. If come spring training, the Bubba Crosby and Andy Phillips are legitimate contenders for Centerfield and 1st base, we can not win.

I am going to ask you for at least the fifth time today. Which legitimate option is goin gaway for CF or bullpen? And make it one that we should have matched.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 03:35 PM
I wanted him to make a real move for Olerud. I wanted him to go after Howry. I wanted him to go after Bradley. I wanted him to take a shot at Wilkerson before someone else did.

Olerud retired. Howry was vastly overpaid and would have cost us a draft pick. Bradley is still in play as is either Wilkerson or Lance Nix. Next.

One3kid
12-08-05, 03:35 PM
The Myers signing is good...

I stepped out for a bit, just want to hit on all these posts I missed.

You can't judge the offseason on 12/8. Exactly right. Let's see what February brings. And just because you don't like Bubba, doesn't mean he can't fit the bill...I think Cashman and them probably have a better eye than you, no offense. I'm not saying the kid is the second coming, but he's better than Bernie or Melky RIGHT NOW, and overpaying for Wikerson, Damon, Pierre, et. al. in trade or FA is stupid. The reason everyone is in bridge jumper mode is because we haven't won in a few years. Well, we haven't won because the Tampa Mafia always tries to get 1 or 2 high priced names. You don't need an all-star at every position, that's what the game in July that fans vote on is for. We need parts to make a whole. Sometimes these younger guys like Bubba, Phillips, Cano, Wang, etc. pan out and sometimes they don't. But I'd rather go to war in April with Bubba and see if someone opens up as the season moves than sign Damon or some crap, and have him flame on us like Burnett will in Toronto. Give Cash a chance. Its not even mid-december yet. Honestly, growing up in Boston, sometimes these threads sound like a call-in show on WEEI. We're not the Red Sox, let's not act like Red Sox fans...

ryanthe13th
12-08-05, 03:36 PM
Olerud retired. Howry was vastly overpaid and would have cost us a draft pick. Bradley is still in play as is either Wilkerson or Lance Nix. Next.

Bradley is not coming to the Yankees. Cashman has no interest in bringing him on board.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 03:37 PM
So in other words, you want the Yankees to give up draft choices by signing some players before December 8th that they can sign afterwards without giving up those choices?

And that is the crux of the anti-Cashman camp. They don't care about the draft picks. It would have been better to sign Michael Myers a few days ago to ease our minds that Cashman isn't in Tahiti and give up the pick than wait until today to sign him and not give the pick (there was ample speculation that Myers had agreed to the deal last week but waited until today for obvious and smart reasons).

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 03:38 PM
Bradley is not coming to the Yankees. Cashman has no interest in bringing him on board.

If you believe what you read in the papers, but for the sake of argument there is a rumor that he may go to Oakland which would make Kotsay available, which to me, is even better.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 03:40 PM
You don't have to rush in without thinking, but I don't see the logic and sitting around and doing nothing is actually accomplishing. He's not fooling anyone into thinking that this team isn't desperate, and its just wasting crucial time.

Obviously he isn't sitting around and doing nothing as we just signed Michael Myers. If you call waiting until 12/8 to not give up a draft pick "waisting time" then we should waste it more often.

ieddyi
12-08-05, 03:50 PM
Beane wanted Cano and Wang for Kotsay. I am glad Cashman laughed at him and gave up that pipe dream.


Just like Fla wanted Cano and Wang for Pierre and they end up getting 3 pichers w/o any star quality among them

ieddyi
12-08-05, 03:57 PM
"Originally Posted by Mattpat11
I'm worrying because the legitimate options are going away.

I'll come out and say it. If come spring training, the Bubba Crosby and Andy Phillips are legitimate contenders for Centerfield and 1st base, we can not win.


Well, wewon last year w/ Bernie in CF and Tino filling the role that Phillips MIGHT fill this year. I think that both of those player can equal the output we got in 2005, w better defense in CF

Spaceboy88
12-08-05, 04:00 PM
Milton Bradley would be a bad addition to this team. I don't see his personality meshing with these players like I could with many other options.

There's more to putting a team together than just statistics.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 04:06 PM
Olerud retired. Howry was vastly overpaid and would have cost us a draft pick. Bradley is still in play as is either Wilkerson or Lance Nix. Next. Howry is everaging less than four per. Not that bad for a pitcher thats better than Farnsworth. Cashman had shot down Bradley. Why would Texas trade Wilkerson? Nix isnt any good.

Yankees13
12-08-05, 04:07 PM
The Yankees may have improved by addition by subtraction this offseason, this blog: http://bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/ points out the negative VORPs of many of the departed players: "Indeed, between this trade and the list of players not offered arbitration last night, the Yankees have drastically improved their ballclub in the last 15 hours simply by deleting deleterious players... If the Yankees can replace those twelve men with replacement level players--the sort that can be acquired via the waiver wire or promoted from the minors--they stand to improve by nearly 55 runs in 2006, that's five and a half wins." So maybe "doing nothing" as Cashman detractors claim will actually help the team.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 04:09 PM
"Originally Posted by Mattpat11
I'm worrying because the legitimate options are going away.

I'll come out and say it. If come spring training, the Bubba Crosby and Andy Phillips are legitimate contenders for Centerfield and 1st base, we can not win.


Well, wewon last year w/ Bernie in CF and Tino filling the role that Phillips MIGHT fill this year. By the absolute skin of our teeth.

Jace
12-08-05, 04:24 PM
By the absolute skin of our teeth.

We also had Kevin Brown, Tim Redding, and Darrell May pitch games for us, which theoretically should not happen this year. There are a ton of other differences. Saying we barely made the playoffs last year with our weaknesses so now we will probably lose because the Blue Jays will win 10 more games is oversimplifying things by a ton.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 04:38 PM
We also had Kevin Brown, Tim Redding, and Darrell May pitch games for us, which theoretically should not happen this year. There are a ton of other differences. Saying we barely made the playoffs last year with our weaknesses so now we will probably lose because the Blue Jays will win 10 more games is oversimplifying things by a ton. If we add players like Crosby and Phillips, I can see them more than making up the difference of Redding and May and such.

27IsNext
12-08-05, 04:40 PM
Actually, Beane wanted Duncan AND Hughes for Kotsay.

EDIT: Didn't Kotsay get the NTC he wanted with the extension?

One3kid
12-08-05, 04:42 PM
If we add players like Crosby and Phillips, I can see them more than making up the difference of Redding and May and such.
Which games do you have Crosby & Phillips taking the mound to portray the roles of Redding & May? Just curious. Can you please provide some backup as to how phillips/crosby are worse than tino/bernie last year? And they had the same record as 2 other playoff teams, so sneaking in really makes no sense. I don't think Sox or Angels fans are acting like you are. They won 90+ games, never had 2 of the pitchers they acquired in the offseason healthy, dealt with injuries and a horrendous start to tear things up in the second half. If Cashman goes out and signs Bradley or Wilkerson or Damon, and they end up hitting the same .275/.305OBP that Crosby did, will you feel better if a name did it? I'd rather get low production at low cost and look for a cheaper fix than overpay now.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 04:43 PM
EDIT: Didn't Kotsay get the NTC he wanted with the extension? Yep ull no trade for 05 and 06.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 04:47 PM
Which games do you have Crosby & Phillips taking the mound to portray the roles of Redding & May? Just curious. Can you please provide some backup as to how phillips/crosby are worse than tino/bernie last year? Both are late 20s career minor leaguers. Bubba can't even hit minor league pitching, and Phillips can't hit a breaking ball. I firmly believe given 500 ABs, Bubba would hit a high end of .210/.280/.300ish. He's just not very good.

With a declining Posada all but a lock, 7-8-9 in the lineup would be a disaster

One3kid
12-08-05, 04:56 PM
Both are late 20s career minor leaguers. Bubba can't even hit minor league pitching, and Phillips can't hit a breaking ball. I firmly believe given 500 ABs, Bubba would hit a high end of .210/.280/.300ish. He's just not very good.

With a declining Posada all but a lock, 7-8-9 in the lineup would be a disaster
Its getting to be like banging my head against a wall...I'm not trying to bash anyone personally, I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But instead of incessantly complaining like a Red Sox fan on talk radio, why don't you tell us what you'd do in Cash's shoes. Like I said earlier, just because we don't hear about it doesn't mean its happening or not happening. Stealing headlines in December doesn't guarantee victories in April, May, October, etc. We're held to a higher standard in trade talks, because we're the Yankees. Losing players, draft picks, extra money just for the sake of making a deal is stupid. Nobody is claiming Bubba is the next coming, but you're underselling him twice, maybe three times as hard as you think any of us are overselling him. Think about it.

goin for 27
12-08-05, 05:04 PM
Nobody is claiming Bubba is the next coming, but you're underselling him twice, maybe three times as hard as you think any of us are overselling him. Think about it.

I don't think he is.

.210/.280/.300ish is about right for Bubba.

The guy simply cannot be a starter for the NY Yankees. Period.

Bubba's numbers for his career
.221 .253 .301


Not many AB's, but I surely think that he will be mercilessly exposed playing every day. His slumps will last for months.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 05:06 PM
Its getting to be like banging my head against a wall...I'm not trying to bash anyone personally, I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But instead of incessantly complaining like a Red Sox fan on talk radio, why don't you tell us what you'd do in Cash's shoes.. I would have made a real push for Wilkerson before Texas got involved with Soriano. I would have considered Bradley. I'd look into Jaque Jones. I'd look in to Kenny Lofton. I'd go after Travis Lee. I would have looked in to Olerud before he retired.


Like I said earlier, just because we don't hear about it doesn't mean its happening or not happening I don't really understand why the free agent persuit of say, Jacque Jones needs to be this big secret.


Losing players, draft picks, extra money just for the sake of making a deal is stupid. Its not for the sake of making a move. Its for the sake of putting out a good enough team that we won 't be wasting Johnson, Mussina Rivera Sheffield and the like in their last years with a third place team.


Nobody is claiming Bubba is the next coming, but you're underselling him twice, maybe three times as hard as you think any of us are overselling him. Think about it. I've thought about it. There's a reason he's going to be 30 and hasn't had a full year in the majors. He's not good.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 05:10 PM
I would have made a real push for Wilkerson before Texas got involved with Soriano. I would have considered Bradley. I'd look into Jaque Jones. I'd look in to Kenny Lofton. I'd go after Travis Lee. I would have looked in to Olerud before he retired.

I don't really understand why the free agent persuit of say, Jacque Jones needs to be this big secret.

Its not for the sake of making a move. Its for the sake of putting out a good enough team that we won 't be wasting Johnson, Mussina Rivera Sheffield and the like in their last years with a third place team.

I've thought about it. There's a reason he's going to be 30 and hasn't had a full year in the majors. He's not good.

And Bradlye and Jones are still out there. Lofton is out there. Why does Cashman have to tell us what he's doing? What reason?

As for putting out a team good enough to not waste those players, that's what the off-season is for. So you would rather have signed Myers the other day to ease your mind and lose the pick rather than wait for today?

JDPNYY
12-08-05, 05:10 PM
Best offseason in a while.


Things I dislike about this Offseason so far:
Inserting Ron Guidry as Pitching Coach


Things I like about this Offseason so far:
Signing Cashman and giving him more control
Signing Bowa, Pena & Maz as Coaches
Inserting Kerrigan as a Coach who will spend time with pitchers
Saying goodbye to Mel
Trading Womack for live humans
Signing Myers
Not overspending for anyone
Having a plan and sticking to it


(If they do indeed sign Bernie that goes in the first list)

27IsNext
12-08-05, 05:12 PM
And Bradlye and Jones are still out there. Lofton is out there. Why does Cashman have to tell us what he's doing? What reason?

As for putting out a team good enough to not waste those players, that's what the off-season is for. So you would rather have signed Myers the other day to ease your mind and lose the pick rather than wait for today?

Oh, you didn't know? Cashman has a moral obligation to tell us fans every detail of what's going on behind the scenes.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 05:13 PM
And Bradlye and Jones are still out there. Lofton is out there. Why does Cashman have to tell us what he's doing? What reason?

What reason is there not to and to talk up Bubba?

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 05:14 PM
Oh, you didn't know? Cashman has a moral obligation to tell us fans every detail of what's going on behind the scenes.

You would think he'd find time in the middle of a solitaire game to personally call every Yankee fan and keep us up to date of any trade offers received/made. Any free agents he's interested. I mean we have to know NOW what the roster will be like on April 4. How inconsiderate of the man!

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 05:16 PM
What reason is there not to and to talk up Bubba?

Because a GM's job is to improve the team, not so ease the panicky fan's nerves. He is not talking up Bubba, include the quote where he was "talking him up". He simply mentioned he would not be afraid to enter 2006 with him as our CF which is smart as when he is trying to obtain our real 2006 CF the price won't be as high as if he came out and said "Bubba stinks, we have to get a CF at any cost!"

One3kid
12-08-05, 05:25 PM
What reason is there not to and to talk up Bubba?
Ever thought that talking publicly about these guys, or not showing confidence in going with Bubba drives the asking price of your "saviors" up? If he says publicly he likes Bradley, Jones, etc. their pricetag goes up at least 2 mil. His job is to win championships, not make the nyyfans message board members happy on December 8th. Do you know that he didnt call about Wilkerson, or whatever? You ride the "Bubba is 30, Posada is 34" train really hard, but you wanted Olerud?! You can't have it both ways. Look, since I asked, I'll divulge:

I am not in love with Bubba starting everyday. But its better than Bernie, or overpaying for Damon, or giving up too much to get another option at this point. Give him a chance, if he fails, I have confidence Cash will find an option during the year. We didn't think Small, Chacon, Cano or Wang were the answer in 05 either.

I want Nomar. He could be a super sub for this team, play some 1B, some OF, backup the SS/3B duo, and be a regular DH.

I really like that Cashman hasn't gone overboard. None of the relievers were really proven, and I can live with Farnsworth over Gordon for now. He was on the decline anyway IMHO.

I can't explain last April/May, none of us can. But afterwards, this was one of the best teams in Baseball. Period. They squeaked into the playoffs, as you say, because of the early season. Bringing back what they had at the end of the year isn't the end of the world. They didn't back into the playoffs, they got in with the same record as 2 of the other 3 teams.

The era of signing the big name for big dollars every year is hopefully over. Mixing the parts together, new old young etc. isn't the worst idea.

Let's see what reports to Tampa in February, not what is or isn't done in a hotel lobby in Dallas in December.

goin for 27
12-08-05, 05:30 PM
Best offseason in a while.

Things I like about this Offseason so far:

Having a plan and sticking to it


How do you know what the Yanks plan is, and how do you know that they are sticking to it?

Isn't it possible that Ryan was in the plan, but they could not get him? Possible that Gordon was in the plan, but they could not keep him?
That Giles was in the plan, but he decided to stay put?

The jury is out this offseason, I am cautiously optimistic.

27IsNext
12-08-05, 05:35 PM
You would think he'd find time in the middle of a solitaire game to personally call every Yankee fan and keep us up to date of any trade offers received/made. Any free agents he's interested. I mean we have to know NOW what the roster will be like on April 4. How inconsiderate of the man!

Don't look now, but Paul O'Neill and the Gatorade coolers are coming soon.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 05:36 PM
Ever thought that talking publicly about these guys, or not showing confidence in going with Bubba drives the asking price of your "saviors" up? I think everyone knows that unless Cashman has totally lost his mind, he doesn't want Bubba start and that he's exploring all these options. I can imagine that any GM or agent really thinks he's fully prepared to go into battle like that. If thats the purpose of keeping this secret, I think its a pretty poorly kept secret.


You ride the "Bubba is 30, Posada is 34" train really hard, but you wanted Olerud?! Its not a straight age thing. Posada being 34 has to do with him being a catcher and the vicious decline last year. I mention that Bubba is 30 because being a 30 year old minor leaguer is more than a little alarming. Olerud 37, but he still has something left to give.


I am not in love with Bubba starting everyday. But its better than Bernie, or overpaying for Damon, or giving up too much to get another option at this point. Doubtful.

Spiker101
12-08-05, 05:45 PM
If we add players like Crosby and Phillips, I can see them more than making up the difference of Redding and May and such.

I predict Phillips doesn't spend an hour on the 25-man. They'll pick up a Travis Lee or a Garciaparra for that role.
Crosby on the other hand is beginning to look like a half-season experiment. But given the White Sox and Indians' strength, the Twins will be a corpse in the Central Division by July and Hunter will be available and relatively cheap, I'm betting.

Mattpat11
12-08-05, 05:46 PM
But given the White Sox and Indians' strength, the Twins will be a corpse in the Central Division by July and Hunter will be available and relatively cheap, I'm betting. Hopefully we're still going at the half season

One3kid
12-08-05, 05:50 PM
Hopefully we're still going at the half season
I can't wait to see you do an about face and be the cheerleader in July when Cashman has done his job. The bridge jumper mentality is pointless.

JDPNYY
12-08-05, 05:57 PM
How do you know what the Yanks plan is, and how do you know that they are sticking to it?

Isn't it possible that Ryan was in the plan, but they could not get him? Possible that Gordon was in the plan, but they could not keep him?
That Giles was in the plan, but he decided to stay put?

The jury is out this offseason, I am cautiously optimistic.

Cashman has said that the plan is that this is a poor crop of free agents and they weren't going to overspend. He also said they would not trade young talent, they haven't. He said they would show patience when making trades, they have. That they would stay pat with the team as it is if that was the best choice.

I'm real happy on December 8th.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 06:05 PM
How do you know what the Yanks plan is, and how do you know that they are sticking to it?

Isn't it possible that Ryan was in the plan, but they could not get him? Possible that Gordon was in the plan, but they could not keep him?
That Giles was in the plan, but he decided to stay put?

The jury is out this offseason, I am cautiously optimistic.
Just because you're cautiously optimisitc, doesn't mean the rest of us need to feel that way. Furthermore, after listening to Cashman's interview on XM Radio, he made it clear that he was going to filll out much of his roster through free agency and that he purposedly waited until the arbitration date passed before attempting to sign some of the players he wanted in support roles so that he doesn't lose any draft choices for them. Another point of his was that he wanted to give Torre more options to use in 2006 while relieving some payroll so that the Yankees can be in a better position to make any additional moves next July unlike 2005.

Cashman also talked about some of the Yankee prospects including Duncan, Henn and Hughes and has high hopes that their prospects will continue to progress and improve their value to the club.

As far as Bernie, he clearly stated that if the Yankees are able to sign Bernie again, it would be in the Sierra role and not as an everyday player. He stressed that Scott Boras agreed to decline arbitration in order to give them more time to negotiate with each other.

Yankeeah
12-08-05, 06:07 PM
When he talked about Duncan, Henn and Hughes, did he talk about them participating in 2006? Henn probably, small chance at Duncan, and I seriously doubt Hughes would get called up

yankeebot
12-08-05, 06:13 PM
Just because you're cautiously optimisitc, doesn't mean the rest of us need to feel that way. Furthermore, after listening to Cashman's interview on XM Radio, he made it clear that he was going to filll out much of his roster through free agency and that he purposedly waited until the arbitration date passed before attempting to sign some of the players he wanted in support roles so that he doesn't lose any draft choices for them. Another point of his was that he wanted to give Torre more options to use in 2006 while relieving some payroll so that the Yankees can be in a better position to make any additional moves next July unlike 2005.

Cashman also talked about some of the Yankee prospects including Duncan, Henn and Hughes and has high hopes that their prospects will continue to progress and improve their value to the club.

As far as Bernie, he clearly stated that if the Yankees are able to sign Bernie again, it would be in the Sierra role and not as an everyday player. He stressed that Scott Boras agreed to decline arbitration in order to give them more time to negotiate with each other.This all sounds good to me and makes me also very optimistic. What is it you don't like about it?

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 06:14 PM
When he talked about Duncan, Henn and Hughes, did he talk about them participating in 2006? Henn probably, small chance at Duncan, and I seriously doubt Hughes would get called up
In regard to Duncan, he mentioned Columbus and his move to 1st base. As far as Henn, he's definitely Columbus bound, but he talked in terms about Hughes being behind Duncan and Henn with Hughes pitching in a lower league. If I had to guess, I would think Hughes would start in High "A" ball in Tampa and if he's having a good season then a move up to Trenton around June when the weather is warm.

Yankeeah
12-08-05, 06:19 PM
In regard to Duncan, he mentioned Columbus and his move to 1st base. As far as Henn, he's definitely Columbus bound, but he talked in terms about Hughes being behind Duncan and Henn with Hughes pitching in a lower league. If I had to guess, I would think Hughes would start in High "A" ball in Tampa and if he's having a good season then a move up to Trenton around June when the weather is warm.

Thanks, thats pretty much what I figured. Did he mention any other prospects by chance, like JB Cox

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 06:21 PM
This all sounds good to me and makes me also very optimistic. What is it you don't like about it?
Let me clarify my earlier comments by saying that I'm not cautiously optimistic, but overly optimistic about what the Yankees are doing. The Yankees are two years too late in taking this approach and I can't put into words how happy I am that it appears that Steinbrenner was finally convinced to see the light instead of spending money like there's no tomorrow.

If some Yankee fans don't like this latest approach by Cashman and the Yankees then the only thing I want to say to them is tough.

SoCal Pinstriper
12-08-05, 06:22 PM
Just because you're cautiously optimisitc, doesn't mean the rest of us need to feel that way. Furthermore, after listening to Cashman's interview on XM Radio, he made it clear that he was going to filll out much of his roster through free agency and that he purposedly waited until the arbitration date passed before attempting to sign some of the players he wanted in support roles so that he doesn't lose any draft choices for them. Another point of his was that he wanted to give Torre more options to use in 2006 while relieving some payroll so that the Yankees can be in a better position to make any additional moves next July unlike 2005.

Cashman also talked about some of the Yankee prospects including Duncan, Henn and Hughes and has high hopes that their prospects will continue to progress and improve their value to the club.

As far as Bernie, he clearly stated that if the Yankees are able to sign Bernie again, it would be in the Sierra role and not as an everyday player. He stressed that Scott Boras agreed to decline arbitration in order to give them more time to negotiate with each other.Thanks for the synopsis.

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 06:24 PM
Thanks, thats pretty much what I figured. Did he mention any other prospects by chance, like JB Cox
He talked about how the Yankees are rebuilding their farm system and will continue to do so. He talked a lot about Wang and you got the feeling that the Yankees are extremely impressed by him.

Yankeeah
12-08-05, 06:25 PM
Alright, thanks a lot man. Their doing the right thing I feel right now.

yankeebot
12-08-05, 06:26 PM
Let me clarify my earlier comments by saying that I'm not cautiously optimistic, but overly optimistic about what the Yankees are doing. The Yankees are two years too late in taking this approach and I can't put into words how happy I am that it appears that Steinbrenner was finally convinced to see the light instead of spending money like there's no tomorrow.

If some Yankee fans don't like this latest approach by Cashman and the Yankees then the only thing I want to say to them is tough.
Ah, thanks. That makes more sense :)

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 06:31 PM
Alright, thanks a lot man. Their doing the right thing I feel right now.
The Cashman interview was done this morning with Buck Martinez and Mark Patrick so they replayed it tonight. The host that replayed that interview talked about seeing Cashman at this steak restaurant yesterday having lunch with three other guys which appears to confirms that Newsday story about Cashman having lunch with Tellem who's Nomar's agent and two of Cashman's major league scouts. The host never mentioned who those other guys were, but Newsday did mentioned Cashman's lunch companions in this morning's paper. Nomar could fill the role of the DH and play some in the field to rest other players while they DH.

Yankeeah
12-08-05, 06:34 PM
The Cashman interview was done this morning with Buck Martinez and Mark Patrick so they replayed it tonight. The host that replayed that interview talked about seeing Cashman at this steak restaurant yesterday having lunch with three other guys which appears to confirms that Newsday story about Cashman having lunch with Tellem who's Nomar's agent and two of Cashman's major league scouts. The host never mentioned who those other guys were, but Newsday did mentioned Cashman's lunch companions in this morning's paper. Nomar could fill the role of the DH and play some in the field to rest other players while they DH.

I'd be cool with Nomar, money/role pending

gdn
12-08-05, 06:36 PM
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED, I say, DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED

Yankees1962
12-08-05, 06:40 PM
One thing I did forget about Cashman's interview is that he talked about Duncan spending time in the major league camp this spring training so he can be around Jeter and Arod. I would expect Cabrera to be there too along with some pitchers like Smith.

goin for 27
12-08-05, 07:12 PM
The Yankees may have improved by addition by subtraction this offseason, this blog: http://bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/ points out the negative VORPs of many of the departed players: "Indeed, between this trade and the list of players not offered arbitration last night, the Yankees have drastically improved their ballclub in the last 15 hours simply by deleting deleterious players... If the Yankees can replace those twelve men with replacement level players--the sort that can be acquired via the waiver wire or promoted from the minors--they stand to improve by nearly 55 runs in 2006, that's five and a half wins." So maybe "doing nothing" as Cashman detractors claim will actually help the team.

Really? Here are the players...

John Flaherty -9.6
Kevin Brown -9.5
Tony Womack -8.9
Darrell May -8.5
Tim Redding -5.4
Alan Embree -4.8
Matt Lawton -3.5
Ruben Sierra -2.3
Mark Bellhorn -1.0
Rey Sanchez -0.5
Mike Vento -0.5
Russ Johnson -0.3

First, you have Flaherty/Womack who played any amount of regular innings. So you need to replace them with replacement players (0) to get back those 18.5 runs.

The rest is far too optimistic. These guys joined the team late, played sparingly, etc. EVERY team is dumping guys like this from their 40 man. It is not like the rest of the league keeps their dregs and the Yanks get to swap theirs out. It also does not mean that whomever one picks up is going to have significantly positive VORP. Never mind that it neglects to note that other losses hurt. Tom Gordon was a +26.8. Farnsworth was a +10.7, so there is a loss of 16 runs right there to be made up. That translates to losing 1.5 games.

Some of these articles are far too simplistic.

goin for 27
12-08-05, 07:16 PM
Cashman has said that the plan is that this is a poor crop of free agents and they weren't going to overspend. He also said they would not trade young talent, they haven't. He said they would show patience when making trades, they have. That they would stay pat with the team as it is if that was the best choice.

I'm real happy on December 8th.

I hear you, but he also said that he wanted to keep Gordon, that he was interested in Giles, that he was interested in Ryan, etc.

I hear what you are saying that it is only December 8th, but we have a weak pen, no CF, No DH, etc.

Staying pat is definitely not the best choice.

I am confident that moves will be made, but will you be happy with this roster April 1, 2006?

AMYanks
12-08-05, 07:44 PM
I hear you, but he also said that he wanted to keep Gordon, that he was interested in Giles, that he was interested in Ryan, etc.

I hear what you are saying that it is only December 8th, but we have a weak pen, no CF, No DH, etc.

Staying pat is definitely not the best choice.

I am confident that moves will be made, but will you be happy with this roster April 1, 2006?

He was interested in Giles and Ryan, and wanted to keep Gordon, but none were possible. Ryan and Gordon wanted to close, and Giles wanted to stay in San Diego, and doesn't like NY.

Yankees13
12-08-05, 08:09 PM
Really? Here are the players...

John Flaherty -9.6
Kevin Brown -9.5
Tony Womack -8.9
Darrell May -8.5
Tim Redding -5.4
Alan Embree -4.8
Matt Lawton -3.5
Ruben Sierra -2.3
Mark Bellhorn -1.0
Rey Sanchez -0.5
Mike Vento -0.5
Russ Johnson -0.3

First, you have Flaherty/Womack who played any amount of regular innings. So you need to replace them with replacement players (0) to get back those 18.5 runs.

The rest is far too optimistic. These guys joined the team late, played sparingly, etc. EVERY team is dumping guys like this from their 40 man. It is not like the rest of the league keeps their dregs and the Yanks get to swap theirs out. It also does not mean that whomever one picks up is going to have significantly positive VORP. Never mind that it neglects to note that other losses hurt. Tom Gordon was a +26.8. Farnsworth was a +10.7, so there is a loss of 16 runs right there to be made up. That translates to losing 1.5 games.

Some of these articles are far too simplistic.
I think the Yankees will have a much more settled roster situation this year, and have a far better back of the rotation, bench and back of the bullpen. So while the estimate is probably high, the Yankees did cut out some serious dead weight, and if there's adqueate replacements, we should be ahead. And are you sure you didn't just Farnsworth half-season era from one of the teams, because I find it difficult to believe the pitcher that had the lower ERA by a fair margin has less than half the VORP.

Yankees13
12-08-05, 08:16 PM
I think the Yankees will have a much more settled roster situation this year, and have a far better back of the rotation, bench and back of the bullpen. So while the estimate is probably high, the Yankees did cut out some serious dead weight, and if there's adqueate replacements, we should be ahead. And are you sure you didn't just Farnsworth half-season era from one of the teams, because I find it difficult to believe the pitcher that had the lower ERA by a fair margin has less than half the VORP.
To answer my own question, you left out Farnsworth's Detroit VORP of 15.4. He was virtually identical to Gordon last year.

27IsNext
12-15-05, 06:52 PM
Nomar--is Cashman not trying hard enough here? Or is he taking the smart approach?

Discuss.

flymick24
12-15-05, 07:32 PM
Nomar--is Cashman not trying hard enough here? Or is he taking the smart approach?

Discuss.

we don't even know what cashman is doing behind the scenes, so a discussion would be fruitless. we can only speculate, and i'd rather not.

but so far, we do know a few things:

-yankees are interested
-yankees have talked to his agent
-torre has called nomar

all those things lead me to believe that the yankees are serious about acquiring him, so they'll do all that they can to acquire him

27IsNext
12-15-05, 07:34 PM
I bumped this so the debate that has heated up in the Nomar thread could continue here.

YankeePride1967
12-15-05, 07:59 PM
I think the debate ran its course in that thread and would have died out even without mod interaction. Everything that was pertinent was already stated.

jbauer2485
12-16-05, 01:11 AM
How could the sky be falling...Womack was traded...

Dooley Womack
12-16-05, 06:22 AM
I'm just excited at the prospect of the Yanks payroll going down to $175-180 million. Wooohooo!

Archer1979
12-16-05, 06:34 AM
I'm just excited at the prospect of the Yanks payroll going down to $175-180 million. Wooohooo!

Ok, the mystery of "Who is Dooley Womack?" has just had one name crossed off the list...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/375316p-318946c.html

ryanthe13th
12-16-05, 03:06 PM
I like Wang a lot, but it is revealing that off what he showed last year, he is now the crown pitching jewel of the entire organization.

What exactly did he show? That he could recover from a serious injury and pitch well in the post-season?

This guy is such a toolbox.

Sam18
12-16-05, 03:11 PM
I'm just excited at the prospect of the Yanks payroll going down to $175-180 million. Wooohooo!

Not me man. The mets have been getting all the highpriced veterens and all we've done is fill our needs with cheap yet effective solutions. When are we gonna get the back pages? Huh Dooley? When are we gonna get the back pages?

23and2
12-16-05, 03:15 PM
We have enough spare payroll to start a small market team... Maybe we should do that :-)

ryanthe13th
12-16-05, 03:16 PM
Not me man. The mets have been getting all the highpriced veterens and all we've done is fill our needs with cheap yet effective solutions. When are we gonna get the back pages? Huh Dooley? When are we gonna get the back pages?

Maybe we can work out a deal for Julio Franco.

Sam18
12-16-05, 04:56 PM
Maybe we can work out a deal for Julio Franco.

YES! That'll grab the headlines!!

Yankeeah
12-16-05, 04:59 PM
We have enough spare payroll to start a small market team... Maybe we should do that :-)

George should buy the Royals and treat them like a Triple A team. Think about it, we can trade Phillips for DeJesus, we can always use Grienke and have 36 starters.

Spiker101
12-16-05, 05:34 PM
What exactly did he show? That he could recover from a serious injury and pitch well in the post-season?

This guy is such a toolbox.

Lupica's not a very good writer but I think what he's saying is that Wang is the team's best pitcher.

Sam18
12-16-05, 05:37 PM
Lupica's not a very good writer but I think what he's saying is that Wang is the team's best pitcher.

No he's taking a shot at the team by saying that the team won't trade a young pitcher who showed a lot of potential last year.

JfromJersey
12-16-05, 05:53 PM
No he's taking a shot at the team by saying that the team won't trade a young pitcher who showed a lot of potential last year.

Lupica is the perfect example of a writer who finds fault with the Yankees when they do something, and finds fault with them when they don't do something. The same old damned if you do, and damned if you don't approach when it comes to the Yankees. If they traded Wang, and/or Cano, for a veteran who fills a need, he would be spouting off about how the Yankees can't develop young players anymore. Now that the Yankees are exercisizing caution, not doing something stupid just to make a backpage headline splash, he says that not doing anything is not always the RIGHT approach. Lupica, and his ilk, can all screw themselves.

27IsNext
12-16-05, 09:01 PM
A.) Yanks acquire Villone. Solid trade for nothing or waste of roster spot?

B.) Nomar headed to LA. Did Cashman not put enough effort into this, or was Nomar never truly interested in the Bronx Bombers to begin with?

Discuss.

AMYanks
12-16-05, 09:09 PM
A.) Yanks acquire Villone. Solid trade for nothing or waste of roster spot?

B.) Nomar headed to LA. Did Cashman not put enough effort into this, or was Nomar never truly interested in the Bronx Bombers to begin with?

Discuss.

A. It's a solid trade in my opinion. We gave up, basically nothing, and in return received a lefty who has posted a 3.52 ERA over the past three years as a reliever (under 3 in the AL), can strike people out at an extremely high rate, provides us with good depth in the back of the bullpen, and at a low price for only one season. If he pitches like he did with Florida last year, then we can just DFA him and eat the salary. But I anticipate him to be pretty solid. Not like he was in Seattle, but a good option for us in the 6th inning.

B. I would have liked Nomar, and maybe one could say Cashman didn't put enough effort into bringing him here, but I genuinely think he wanted to play with the Dodgers all along. Cashman meeting with him probably would have done little, as he had his heart set on playing in Los Angeles, where he prefers. A few days ago, my gut told me he would sign with the Yankees. Maybe that was because the rumors that the Yankees were seriously interested came at the same time Tellem said that Nomar was close to making a decision. But now that I think about it, I was pretty gullible for thinking he would've signed here. Not that he wouldn't want to play here, but more so he wanted to play in Los Angeles.

27IsNext
12-16-05, 09:12 PM
As far as Nomar, ring403 pointed out that he may have backed off Nomar because there are other more pressing deals being worked on.

38Special
12-16-05, 09:14 PM
gimme ur tots

YankeePride1967
12-16-05, 09:15 PM
As far as Nomar, ring403 pointed out that he may have backed off Nomar because there are other more pressing deals being worked on.

Agreed, and why I will wait to see what happens before laying blame.

27IsNext
12-16-05, 09:22 PM
gimme ur tots

I haven't eaten all day!

goin for 27
12-16-05, 09:56 PM
As far as Nomar, ring403 pointed out that he may have backed off Nomar because there are other more pressing deals being worked on.

I have never understood this logic. Their are a cadre of assistants to Cashman, plenty of lawyers to write contracts. If the Yankees backed off Garciaparra (no one knows for sure) it is because they have plans for other players. I don't think that they have been laying groundwork for the last 8 weeks to work through the complexities of landing Ron Villone. One phone call to an agent can get a deal done in principle.

No team loses a player that they want, because they are "too busy" working on other deals.

Ever.

YankeePride1967
12-16-05, 09:58 PM
I have never understood this logic. Their are a cadre of assistants to Cashman, plenty of lawyers to write contracts. If the Yankees backed off Garciaparra (no one knows for sure) it is because they have plans for other players. I don't think that they have been laying groundwork for the last 8 weeks to work through the complexities of landing Ron Villone. One phone call to an agent can get a deal done in principle.

No team loses a player that they want, because they are "too busy" working on other deals.

Ever.

Unless that move is for a player more preferable that if signed would make (in this case Nomar) no longer needed.

goin for 27
12-16-05, 10:21 PM
Unless that move is for a player more preferable that if signed would make (in this case Nomar) no longer needed.

That is different altogether. Prioritizing players is done every day, and maybe the Yanks have a better solution than Nomar. I was responding to a poster who indicated that "There are more pressing deals being worked on". In other words, they are too busy to pay attention to Garciaparra. THAT is not happening. If they are interested in Nomar, they will not lose him because they are too busy to work on a deal for him.