PDA

View Full Version : Bobby Abreu....Stark on ESPN



yank4life2005
12-03-05, 06:54 PM
Stark said the Phillies are looking for a #1 SP in a deal for Abreu. We have heard rumblings of Pavano not being happy in NY and maybe a deal can be worked out in a package for Abreu. They both have almost the same amount of money left on their contracts so it might be possible as the madness begins in Dallas on monday.

Abreu in RF and Sheff as the DH would be tremendous...especially on defense.

AMYanks
12-03-05, 06:55 PM
I don't consider Pavano a #1, and I doubt Gillick does, either.

JDPNYY
12-03-05, 06:56 PM
Stark said the Phillies are looking for a #1 SP in a deal for Abreu. We have heard rumblings of Pavano not being happy in NY and maybe a deal can be worked out in a package for Abreu. They both have almost the same amount of money left on their contracts so it might be possible as the madness begins in Dallas on monday.

Abreu in RF and Sheff as the DH would be tremendous...especially on defense.

I hope so. I'm sick to death of the Yankee drought in the Home Run Derby.

swityak11
12-03-05, 06:59 PM
I love Abreu but Pavano would never get the trade done even if Cashman threw in Wang.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-03-05, 07:01 PM
Stark said the Phillies are looking for a #1 SP in a deal for Abreu. We have heard rumblings of Pavano not being happy in NY and maybe a deal can be worked out in a package for Abreu. They both have almost the same amount of money left on their contracts so it might be possible as the madness begins in Dallas on monday.

Abreu in RF and Sheff as the DH would be tremendous...especially on defense.

Good luck to Gillick if he thinks he can get a #1 pitcher for Abreu, at that contract price. If a team has a #1 pitcher, they aren't trading him, and especially not for a guy owed as much as Abreu is. Pavano might well be one of the best pitchers available (even though Cashman says he isn't), so there might be something there as well, but Gillick will want some prospects as well.

Yankyfan
12-03-05, 07:05 PM
Bobby really feel off the second half of last year.Do you think it was due to the HR competition?

ppa79
12-03-05, 07:05 PM
Good luck to Gillick if he thinks he can get a #1 pitcher for Abreu, at that contract price. If a team has a #1 pitcher, they aren't trading him, and especially not for a guy owed as much as Abreu is. Pavano might well be one of the best pitchers available (even though Cashman says he isn't), so there might be something there as well, but Gillick will want some prospects as well.

I would do a Pavano for Abreu straight up but no way would I give up prospects. I think that Pavano could win 15 games next year.

AMYanks
12-03-05, 07:06 PM
I would do a Pavano for Abreu straight up but no way would I give up prospects. I think that Pavano could win 15 games next year.

IMO, Pavano for Abreu is a no-brainer. That's why Gillick wouldn't do it.

btmyank
12-03-05, 07:07 PM
Sorry to argue, but the Yanks have two home run derby wins in the last 8 years Tino won in 97 and Giambi won in 2002. Not much of drought, so we really don't need Abreu.

Vin
12-03-05, 07:09 PM
Stark said the Phillies are looking for a #1 SP in a deal for Abreu. We have heard rumblings of Pavano not being happy in NY and maybe a deal can be worked out in a package for Abreu. They both have almost the same amount of money left on their contracts so it might be possible as the madness begins in Dallas on monday.

Abreu in RF and Sheff as the DH would be tremendous...especially on defense.

So if Abreu's in RF and Sheff's the DH then who's going to be in center? Mariano?
we still have a hole in CF, plus another hole in pitching if we let go of Pavano.

JDPNYY
12-03-05, 07:09 PM
Sorry to argue, but the Yanks have two home run derby wins in the last 8 years Tino won in 97 and Giambi won in 2002. Not much of drought, so we really don't need Abreu.

Hellooooo...... The Yankees should win that every year. That contest is important.

ppa79
12-03-05, 07:11 PM
So if Abreu's in RF and Sheff's the DH then who's going to be in center? Mariano?
we still have a hole in CF, plus another hole in pitching if we let go of Pavano.

I agree we still have a hole in center, but getting Abreu lets us to put Bubba in CF. We will have the best 1-8 in the league. How do we have a whole in pitching? If we traded Pavano, Wright would take his spot. We have 7 starting pitchers.

NewEraYanks2527
12-03-05, 07:17 PM
Pavano has said he DOES NOT want out of New York as of lately. There was even a report(though somewhat suspect) that Suzyn Waldman gave that Pavano told Cashman he did not want to be traded and wanted to prove himself in NY. Pavano is also not another #1 but if he could land us a Abreu well then that is quite the trade. Left handed Abreu in Yankee Stadium :jaw-drop:

But really I just do not see this happening, though it almost does solve the CF problem because we could put Crosby in center most of the time because really our 1-8 is amazing. Also they could DH Sheff and I think that would keep him fresh.

Yankeeah
12-03-05, 07:19 PM
Sorry to argue, but the Yanks have two home run derby wins in the last 8 years Tino won in 97 and Giambi won in 2002. Not much of drought, so we really don't need Abreu.

This is the joke
















and this is your head :)

AMYanks
12-03-05, 07:22 PM
Sheffield and Pavano for Abreu, Michaels, and a prospect.

Hmm...

Babe Rules
12-03-05, 07:22 PM
I would do a Pavano for Abreu straight up but no way would I give up prospects. I think that Pavano could win 15 games next year.

Ditto

hellonewman
12-03-05, 07:28 PM
Stark said the Phillies are looking for a #1 SP in a deal for Abreu. We have heard rumblings of Pavano not being happy in NY and maybe a deal can be worked out in a package for Abreu.I think by "#1 SP," he means a guy who's actually good.

swityak11
12-03-05, 07:29 PM
I thought I heard talk of Abreu going to the Giants for Schmidt and prospects.

No clue on the validity.

ppa79
12-03-05, 07:33 PM
I thought I heard talk of Abreu going to the Giants for Schmidt and prospects.

No clue on the validity.

I won't do that trade if I'm the Giants. Schmidt is a stud if he is healthy.

Sam18
12-03-05, 07:35 PM
Sheffield and Pavano for Abreu, Michaels, and a prospect.

Hmm...

I'd do that in a heartbeat.

longtimeyankeefan
12-03-05, 07:35 PM
Sheffield and Pavano for Abreu, Michaels, and a prospect.

Hmm...

I proposed elsewhere Pavano + Cash & Sheffield for Abreu & Michaels. I don't see a prospect from the Phillies and no cash from the Yankees in this kind of a trade

Abreu - $13M, $15M, $2M buyout ($16M option) = $30M
Michaels - arbitration eligible (?) - $825K last season

Sheffield - $13M
Pavano - $8M, $10M, $11M, $1.9M buyout ($13M options) = $30.9M

With the combined salaries of Pavano & Sheffield ($44M), the Phillies would be taking on an additional $13M in salary over the next several seasons - although the ownership is willing to spend money, I don't think they want to invest it in a starting pitcher coming off an injury plaqued season.

apolansk
12-03-05, 07:37 PM
I proposed elsewhere Pavano + Cash & Sheffield for Abreu & Michaels. I don't see a prospect from the Phillies and no cash from the Yankees in this kind of a trade

Abreu - $13M, $15M, $2M buyout ($16M option) = $30M
Michaels - arbitration eligible (?) - $825K last season

Sheffield - $13M
Pavano - $8M, $10M, $11M, $1.9M buyout ($13M options) = $30.9M

With the combined salaries of Pavano & Sheffield ($44M), the Phillies would be taking on an additional $13M in salary over the next several seasons - although the ownership is willing to spend money, I don't think they want to invest it in a starting pitcher coming off an injury plaqued season.

The problem with this, is that the Phillies are trying to cut payroll for next year. Hence why they would trade Abreu. This trade nets them $7 mil next year.

AMYanks
12-03-05, 07:38 PM
I proposed elsewhere Pavano + Cash & Sheffield for Abreu & Michaels. I don't see a prospect from the Phillies and no cash from the Yankees in this kind of a trade

Abreu - $13M, $15M, $2M buyout ($16M option) = $30M
Michaels - arbitration eligible (?) - $825K last season

Sheffield - $13M
Pavano - $8M, $10M, $11M, $1.9M buyout ($13M options) = $30.9M

With the combined salaries of Pavano & Sheffield ($44M), the Phillies would be taking on an additional $13M in salary over the next several seasons - although the ownership is willing to spend money, I don't think they want to invest it in a starting pitcher coming off an injury plaqued season.

You're probably right, but I'd like to see it happen.

btmyank
12-03-05, 07:41 PM
This is the joke


I know, I was joking also.

Vin
12-03-05, 08:19 PM
Remember the saying, Good pitching beats good hitting. As Yankee fans we should all take a wait and see approach to see how Pavano pitches the next season.

I know that's too much to ask, but baseball is a marathon not a sprint.

JeffWeaverFan
12-03-05, 08:32 PM
Remember the saying, Good pitching beats good hitting.
The problem is that Pavano is not a great pitcher.

My guess is that sometime after the winter meetings Pavano will be traded for a CFer.

Yankees1962
12-03-05, 08:45 PM
The problem is that Pavano is not a great pitcher.

My guess is that sometime after the winter meetings Pavano will be traded for a CFer.
In time we'll find out for sure, but the Yankees won't trade a starting pitcher until late March if then. They have too many questionable pitchers to take a chance before they know for sure what they have in spring training.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-03-05, 08:51 PM
Pavano, in a semi watered down NL East could be very good, especially facing a skelton lineups such as Florida and Nats 38 times (4-5 starts perhaps. I believe Pavano has sub 2.7 ERA in his career against >500 teams)Then again Wang with the Phil's infield behind him would be nasty as all hell. I am very reluctant to trade Wang, but if he is the centerpiece of a deal fr Abreu, it would be intriguing

Flatten78
12-03-05, 09:06 PM
[QUOTE=JeffWeaverFan]The problem is that Pavano is not a great pitcher.

My guess is that sometime after the winter meetings Pavano will be traded for a CFer.


i belive it was GOOD pitching beats great hitting. pavano is a good pitcher. and if u still think you need great pitching, just look at the rotation of the 2005 world champions. none of their pitchers are "great", theyre just good. and you could also just look at 2 pitchers from our rotation last yr. with the names of Chacon and Wang, if i recall correctly, they did a rather good job for us. I dont mean to have an attitude about this, but i just get frustrated with some yankee fans who seem to have the preconcieved notion that we need future HOF pitchers to be successful. we have a rather strong defense, and you add that to GOOD starting pitching, and one HELL of an offense(which we have), n you'll be successful(which we are already).

RhodeyYankee2638
12-03-05, 09:07 PM
[QUOTE=JeffWeaverFan]The problem is that Pavano is not a great pitcher.

My guess is that sometime after the winter meetings Pavano will be traded for a CFer.


i belive it was GOOD pitching beats great hitting. pavano is a good pitcher. and if u still think you need great pitching, just look at the rotation of the 2005 world champions. none of their pitchers are "great", theyre just good. and you could also just look at 2 pitchers from our rotation last yr. with the names of Chacon and Wang, if i recall correctly, they did a rather good job for us. I dont mean to have an attitude about this, but i just get frustrated with some yankee fans who seem to have the preconcieved notion that we need future HOF pitchers to be successful. we have a rather strong defense, and you add that to GOOD starting pitching, and one HELL of an offense(which we have), n you'll be successful(which we are already).

I think they are better than good, but also helped by a very good defense.

Babe Rules
12-03-05, 09:09 PM
In time we'll find out for sure, but the Yankees won't trade a starting pitcher until late March if then. They have too many questionable pitchers to take a chance before they know for sure what they have in spring training.

Unless they sign a FA like Millwood.

Flatten78
12-03-05, 09:09 PM
[QUOTE=RhodeyYankee2638]I think they are better than good, but also helped by a very good defense.[



AGREED!! Finally some sense.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-03-05, 09:11 PM
Unless they sign a FA like Millwood.

That would be nice actually. Millwood is flat out nasty, he has stuff that translates fantastically to AL pitching, unlike a lot of the NL pitchers

Flatten78
12-03-05, 09:15 PM
I think they are better than good, but also helped by a very good defense.


one more thing about that comment. great pitchers wouldnt be great if they ddnt have an equal or better defense behind them. u cant strike out 27/game

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-03-05, 09:40 PM
[QUOTE=JeffWeaverFan]The problem is that Pavano is not a great pitcher.

My guess is that sometime after the winter meetings Pavano will be traded for a CFer.


i belive it was GOOD pitching beats great hitting. pavano is a good pitcher. and if u still think you need great pitching, just look at the rotation of the 2005 world champions. none of their pitchers are "great", theyre just good. and you could also just look at 2 pitchers from our rotation last yr. with the names of Chacon and Wang, if i recall correctly, they did a rather good job for us. I dont mean to have an attitude about this, but i just get frustrated with some yankee fans who seem to have the preconcieved notion that we need future HOF pitchers to be successful. we have a rather strong defense, and you add that to GOOD starting pitching, and one HELL of an offense(which we have), n you'll be successful(which we are already).

The thing is Pavano is a horrible yes HORRIBLE pitcher who had one good fluke year in the the NL East

JDPNYY
12-03-05, 09:45 PM
I know, I was joking also.

If it's any consolation... I knew you were joking bt.

Zimmers' Helmet
12-03-05, 09:58 PM
If Gillick were to trade Abreu for Pavano, it would be proof-positive that a once brilliant G.M. has indeed gone senile.

TommyK8
12-03-05, 10:41 PM
A glance at Abreu's stats will give an inkling as to why the Phils are willing to move him. He hit only 6 home runs and batted .260 after the All-Star Break. Maybe winning the Home Run Derby messed up his mechanics. But he was hardly a dominant player over the final 73 games of the season. Buyer beware!

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-03-05, 10:45 PM
A glance at Abreu's stats will give an inkling as to why the Phils are willing to move him. He hit only 6 home runs and batted .260 after the All-Star Break. Maybe winning the Home Run Derby messed up his mechanics. But he was hardly a dominant player over the final 73 games of the season. Buyer beware!

He does have a reputation as a first half player(dont know if its true but he has a reputation)

Yet if we could get a good rightfielder that would hit .301/.411/.512 and steal around 30 bags(career stats)and let sheff dh for Pavano who is a bad first half player and a bad second half player, I would run around the street naked. It would be proof that Gillick truly has reached insanity.

ComeBackShane47
12-03-05, 11:07 PM
The thing is Pavano is a horrible yes HORRIBLE pitcher who had one good fluke year in the the NL East

Thats just not true. Pavano is not horrible, nothing about him is horrible, even this past year which was one of the worst of his career he was still pretty good. However, as most can see, Pavano's success is dependant greatly on his defense, since despite his good stuff, he gets very few strikeouts. But to his credit, he has a low walk rate and a high groundball rate, which would lead you to believe that if he keeps the ball down, with solid defense he can put up great numbers. Only what we saw last year was an injured Pavano, who was getting the ball up on occasion and with the addition of the DH, those mistake were being hit out of the park. Give him a real centerfielder and a clean bill of health, and Pavano will be solid. But simply calling a guy horrible is just ignorant.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-03-05, 11:10 PM
Thats just not true. Pavano is not horrible, nothing about him is horrible, even this past year which was one of the worst of his career he was still pretty good. However, as most can see, Pavano's success is dependant greatly on his defense, since despite his good stuff, he gets very few strikeouts. But to his credit, he has a low walk rate and a high groundball rate, which would lead you to believe that if he keeps the ball down, with solid defense he can put up great numbers. Only what we saw last year was an injured Pavano, who was getting the ball up on occasion and with the addition of the DH, those mistake were being hit out of the park. Give him a real centerfielder and a clean bill of health, and Pavano will be solid. But simply calling a guy horrible is just ignorant.

Pavano has twice put up an ERA over 5.50 on a solid defensive team

Carl Pavano has a long history of injury

Carl Pavano doesn't K a lot of people

Yankees defense isn't great

What makes one think Pavano will be solid?

AMYanks
12-03-05, 11:14 PM
Pavano isn't horrible. His ERA+ is 100. He is average.

surge511
12-03-05, 11:16 PM
I agree we still have a hole in center, but getting Abreu lets us to put Bubba in CF. We will have the best 1-8 in the league. How do we have a whole in pitching? If we traded Pavano, Wright would take his spot. We have 7 starting pitchers.

Or we could then make a trade for Milton Bradley and really pile on the offense. Wow, would that be one hell of a lineup - Bradley would probably be batting 9th. My God. Cash, get this done, HAHA. :D

RhodeyYankee2638
12-03-05, 11:16 PM
Pavano isn't horrible. His ERA+ is 100. He is average.

If you factor in his contract, low K rates, and his injury history, he is horrible. he just isnt that good

AMYanks
12-03-05, 11:18 PM
If you factor in his contract, low K rates, and his injury history, he is horrible. he just isnt that good

You can't factor in low K rates as a reason for him to be horrible. He has put up a 100 ERA+ with those K rates. It is possible for a pitcher to succeed with low K rates.

He still is average, even with his contract and injury history. That doesn't make him any less talented. He is an average pitcher.

btmyank
12-03-05, 11:20 PM
If it's any consolation... I knew you were joking bt.


Cool with me, I still don't think we need Abreu.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-03-05, 11:21 PM
You can't factor in low K rates as a reason for him to be horrible. He has put up a 100 ERA+ with those K rates. It is possible for a pitcher to succeed with low K rates.

He still is average, even with his contract and injury history. That doesn't make him any less talented. He is an average pitcher.

Most would say Eric Milton and Esteban Loaiza are horrible, and they have basically the same ERA+. If you take away Pavano's 1 good season, he would be well, well below average

AMYanks
12-03-05, 11:25 PM
Most would say Eric Milton and Esteban Loaiza are horrible, and they have basically the same ERA+. If you take away Pavano's 1 good season, he would be well, well below average

You don't just take away his best season, unless you're also going to take away his worse season.

Milton would be called below average, because that's what his statistics indicate. I don't understand why anyone would call Loaiza horrible. He's not great or anything, but he has had an up-and-down career, in which he rounds out to being average.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-03-05, 11:29 PM
You don't just take away his best season, unless you're also going to take away his worse season.

Milton would be called below average, because that's what his statistics indicate. I don't understand why anyone would call Loaiza horrible. He's not great or anything, but he has had an up-and-down career, in which he rounds out to being average.

Fine I wont take away his best season

He has 6 seasons with under a 100 ERA+, 3 of those being under 90. Not average.

AMYanks
12-03-05, 11:30 PM
Fine I wont take away his best season

He has 6 seasons with under a 100 ERA+, 3 of those being under 90. Not average.

The more you break the stats down, the less it appears he is horrible. He may not be average, but considering how close it is, it's really showing that he is SLIGHTLY below average, at the absolute worst.

ieddyi
12-03-05, 11:34 PM
A glance at Abreu's stats will give an inkling as to why the Phils are willing to move him. He hit only 6 home runs and batted .260 after the All-Star Break. Maybe winning the Home Run Derby messed up his mechanics. But he was hardly a dominant player over the final 73 games of the season. Buyer beware!

OK, then how do you like Lowells chances this year?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-03-05, 11:36 PM
The more you break the stats down, the less it appears he is horrible. He may not be average, but considering how close it is, it's really showing that he is SLIGHTLY below average, at the absolute worst.

Slightly below average? Sporting a 6.60 ERA and 66 ERA+ or a 6.33 ERA and 73 ERA+ or a 5.62 ERA and 84 ERA+. Those aren't very good numbers. OR SLIGHTLY BELOW AVERAGE

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-03-05, 11:36 PM
Pavano isn't horrible. His ERA+ is 100. He is average.

ok i meant for the money he is getting paid he is horrible, he has only had one good season

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-03-05, 11:37 PM
Or we could then make a trade for Milton Bradley and really pile on the offense. Wow, would that be one hell of a lineup - Bradley would probably be batting 9th. My God. Cash, get this done, HAHA. :D

we dont have to trade for bradley, just wait for the non tender deadline and get him for cash

AMYanks
12-03-05, 11:39 PM
Slightly below average? Sporting a 6.60 ERA and 66 ERA+ or a 6.33 ERA and 73 ERA+ or a 5.62 ERA and 84 ERA+. Those aren't very good numbers. OR SLIGHTLY BELOW AVERAGE

3.06 ERA, 151 ERA+, and 3.79 ERA, 105 ERA+, and 3.00 ERA, 137 ERA+ aren't bad.

BTW, those numbers came via a 381 IP sample size. Yours came in a 217 IP sample size.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-03-05, 11:44 PM
3.06 ERA, 151 ERA+, and 3.79 ERA, 105 ERA+, and 3.00 ERA, 137 ERA+ aren't bad.

BTW, those numbers came via a 381 IP sample size. Yours came in a 217 IP sample size.

He had the 3.06 era in a year he pitched 97 innings, 3.79 in a year he pitched 61.2 innings. Considering the lack of innings pitched and he is a starter I consider those 2 horrible years, leaving him with only one good year. That would make him a horrible pitcher imo.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-03-05, 11:47 PM
BTW, those numbers came via a 381 IP sample size. Yours came in a 217 IP sample size.

Yeah, 220 out of those 381 IP came in 1 year

In his ONLY OTHER full season, he put up a 94ERA+, his ONLY other full season

AMYanks
12-04-05, 12:00 AM
Yeah, 220 out of those 381 IP came in 1 year

In his ONLY OTHER full season, he put up a 94ERA+, his ONLY other full season

He was never horrible in a full season, then.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-04-05, 12:02 AM
He was never horrible in a full season, then.

94 ERA+ in a pitchers park and national league. That doesn't translate well into the AL

And its not average either, a 94 era+ is pretty bad

AMYanks
12-04-05, 12:06 AM
94 ERA+ in a pitchers park and national league. That doesn't translate well into the AL

And its not average either, a 94 era+ is pretty bad

A 94 ERA+ is actually below average.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-04-05, 12:13 AM
A 94 ERA+ is actually below average.


I knnow, and so is pavano
And if people aren't into era+, they can always look to some of his awful WHIP's, BAA, OPS Against etc. throughout the years. I mean people are hitting .280 off of him in his career. Thats piss poor, in a weak hitting divison

ring403
12-04-05, 12:13 AM
94 ERA+ in a pitchers park and national league. ERA+ is already adjusted for park factor, so it doesn't matter what park someone pitches in.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-04-05, 12:17 AM
If your a starter and you pitch under 100 innings, I consider that horrible.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-04-05, 12:20 AM
ERA+ is already adjusted for park factor, so it doesn't matter what park someone pitches in.

so whats the excuse for those nice 6 ERA's? ;)

Yankees1962
12-04-05, 02:14 AM
we dont have to trade for bradley, just wait for the non tender deadline and get him for cash
The Dodgers won't non tender Bradley!

Stupid Flanders
12-04-05, 07:10 AM
Pavano isn't horrible. He's not great either. He is overpaid.

I think too many people expected Cy Pavano when he was signed and now because he didn't live up to expectations think he's terrible, and too many people thought he was terrible and since the past season was a health disaster their initial bias is reinforced.

He's ok. That's it.

JGiambi25
12-04-05, 12:04 PM
Their saying Abreu might end up in Baltimore for a package centered around Bedard

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-04-05, 12:10 PM
Their saying Abreu might end up in Baltimore for a package centered around Bedard

I hope so, Baltimore always has strong lineups, what is adding Abreu to them in the big picture. I know that I don't want to see Mazzone work with a young lefty like Bedard who looks like he's going to be a very good player.

Munson's 'Stash
12-04-05, 02:23 PM
Another rumor is Trot Nixon + Matt Clement for Abreu, which is an upgrade for the Red Sox, and pretty much replaces Manny Ramirez's production (assuming Abreu hasn't fallen off a cliff), albeit from the LH side of the plate and taking defense into account.

Pavano can barely claim to be league average and makes $10M/yr and is an injury risk. The Yankees probably have to eat half his salary to get anyone to take him.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-04-05, 02:33 PM
Another rumor is Trot Nixon + Matt Clement for Abreu, which is an upgrade for the Red Sox, and pretty much replaces Manny Ramirez's production (assuming Abreu hasn't fallen off a cliff), albeit from the LH side of the plate and taking defense into account.

Pavano can barely claim to be league average and makes $10M/yr and is an injury risk. The Yankees probably have to eat half his salary to get anyone to take him.

There are maybe 2-3 players who can replace Ramirez's production in all of baseball, and Bobby Abreu isn't one of them. Ortiz will be walked insessantly if Ramirez is traded and Boston will not be as good next year, it's really that simple.

Munson's 'Stash
12-04-05, 02:57 PM
There are maybe 2-3 players who can replace Ramirez's production in all of baseball, and Bobby Abreu isn't one of them. Ortiz will be walked insessantly if Ramirez is traded and Boston will not be as good next year, it's really that simple.

I beg to differ. Considering defense Abreu produces only slighty less than Manny and is a 2 years younger and cheaper. Here are the Warp3* totals for both players durring Manny's time in boston:



Abreu Manny
01 7.1 8.7
02 8.4 8.2
03 7.9 9.0
04 9.5 7.8
05 7.0 8.1
total: 39.9 41.8


That is not a huge difference over 5 years. Consider that Abreu makes $44M over the next 3 years (I'm assuming that the Sox pick up his option to get him to waive his no trade clause) compared to Manny's $57M in the same time period and I think you can see why the Sox would deal for Abreu straight up, and why the Phillies wouldn't.

It also means the Sox remove Trot Nixon, an injury plagued platoon player. They would still need a RHH masher to slot between Ortiz and Abreu; say they get Glaus (to play 1B, another topical rumor). A 3-4-5 of Ortiz, Glaus, and Abreu is going to score as many runs as Ortiz, Manny, and Nixon and is probably better on defense.


* I hate BP's defensive metrics, but it's the closest thing to a composite offensive/defensive stat that's available.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-04-05, 03:04 PM
Another rumor is Trot Nixon + Matt Clement for Abreu,

:lol: The Phillies would laugh...

Davios
12-04-05, 03:20 PM
:lol: The Phillies would laugh...



I love how a column by a boston writer about how the Red Sox SHOULD make an offer of Nixon and Clement for Abreu turns into a possible deal being made. The same way Boston calling up Philly asking for a Ramirez Abreu trade only to have Phildelphia deny them turn into heated discussions.