PDA

View Full Version : Forget offense: who are the best available CFs defensively?



JMAN74
12-03-05, 03:26 PM
Rank the following:


Bubba Crosby
Jason Michaels
Brad Wilkerson
Juan Pierre

if possible, give reasoning and/or statistics to support the rankings (the more details the better!)


Add any others who you think could feasibly come available....

BJG
12-03-05, 03:37 PM
Off the top of my head?

Chavez
Church
Bradley
Wilkerson
Bubba
Michaels
Pierre
Encarnacion
Jones
Damon

Unscientific, and even if it were, I think that Wilkerson to Jones is fairly bunched and we don't know enough about defense to be that overly definitive when it's close.

38Special
12-03-05, 03:58 PM
Inning Endy is definitely the best

AMYanks
12-03-05, 04:09 PM
Looking at some of his statistics on Baseball Prospectus, Jason Michaels was slighty above average for his first three years, but was very good in CF last year. He's not a great defender, but I'll take his combination of offense and defense (as long as Gillick realizes he's not worth Wang.)

ComeBackShane47
12-03-05, 04:46 PM
Its a shame that Chavez is a miserable hitter, and his defense does not even come close to making up for his lack of hitting.

People need to remember that if a guy isnt a great fielder its ok as long as he is a good hitter...obviously to a point. No one complains too much about Sheff being bad in the outfield, simply because he more than makes up for it at the plate.

yank4life2005
12-03-05, 05:20 PM
I will take Wilkerson...He goes all out. I think he can be had by NY.

Henn, Proctor, Cabrera and Cash should be enough to get it done.

longtimeyankeefan
12-03-05, 05:27 PM
I will take Wilkerson...He goes all out. I think he can be had by NY.

Henn, Proctor, Cabrera and Cash should be enough to get it done.

Three players & cash for Wilkerson is too much - and I would like us to acquire Wilkerson.

No more than two prospects - or Small & Proctor.

yank4life2005
12-03-05, 05:38 PM
There is not a market for Small.

Proctor & Henn possibly? Don't know if that is enough.

Buzah!
12-03-05, 05:48 PM
Bubba is the best defensively.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-03-05, 08:28 PM
I want WIlkerson but why does everybody think the Nats are going to bend over for us in a trade. Wilkerson is worth A LOT more than Small, Henn, Proctor and all the other proposed deals on this forum. Come on the phillies want Wang for Jason fricking Michaels. The Nats if they are smart will want at least either one of Wang, Chacon or Cano and a prospect.

longtimeyankeefan
12-03-05, 10:37 PM
I want WIlkerson but why does everybody think the Nats are going to bend over for us in a trade. Wilkerson is worth A LOT more than Small, Henn, Proctor and all the other proposed deals on this forum. Come on the phillies want Wang for Jason fricking Michaels. The Nats if they are smart will want at least either one of Wang, Chacon or Cano and a prospect.

There hasn't been a trade discussion this offseason involving the Yankees that has not included either Wang's or Cano's name - that doesn't mean that the Nats are going to get either.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-03-05, 10:41 PM
There hasn't been a trade discussion this offseason involving the Yankees that has not included either Wang's or Cano's name - that doesn't mean that the Nats are going to get either.

My point, the Nats will ask for one or both and we will say no and not have WIlkerson, good news is choice number 2 in Bradley is likely to get non-tendered, aslo good new is that IMO he is more talented than Wilkerson. Bad news is he has an injury history and anger problems.

TommyK8
12-03-05, 10:45 PM
There hasn't been a trade discussion this offseason involving the Yankees that has not included either Wang's or Cano's name - that doesn't mean that the Nats are going to get either.
That's because virtually everyone else on the Yankees has a huge contract and is untradeable. No one will trade for Posada unless the Yankees eat half of his contract. Everyone else is almost impossible to trade, with the exceptions of Small and Chacon, but who knows what they would bring back in a trade.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-03-05, 10:48 PM
That's because virtually everyone else on the Yankees has a huge contract and is untradeable. No one will trade for Posada unless the Yankees eat half of his contract. Everyone else is almost impossible to trade, with the exceptions of Small and Chacon, but who knows what they would bring back in a trade.

I understand your point but Sheffield doesnt make that much, produces and only has one year left. Not that I would want to trade him, just saying.

longtimeyankeefan
12-03-05, 11:07 PM
My point, the Nats will ask for one or both and we will say no and not have WIlkerson, good news is choice number 2 in Bradley is likely to get non-tendered, aslo good new is that IMO he is more talented than Wilkerson. Bad news is he has an injury history and anger problems.

Its called offer, counteroffer.

If the Nats make that type of an offer to almost any team ("I'll give you Wilkerson for your ROY caliber position player and your solid middle of the rotation almost rookie pitcher"), they are going to find Wilkerson on their roster come opening day.

The question is - can we come back with an offer that is attractive to Washington without either Cano or Wang in the deal? I believe that the answer is yes. The biggest issue, IMO, is the lack of ownership (and possibly management, if Bowden gets called to Boston) hampering this deal totally.

ComeBackShane47
12-03-05, 11:10 PM
What people seem to forget about Wilkerson is that the Nationals think just as highly of him as the Yankees do. He is not making a ton of money, and therefore, the Nats have no incentive to deal him, unless they get something of greater worth, or at least equal worth, but younger. I don't think that he is a possibility for the Yanks simply because the Yankees can not offer anything to the Nationals that they need, or that the Yankees are willing to give up.

JapanJobbers
12-03-05, 11:29 PM
What people seem to forget about Wilkerson is that the Nationals think just as highly of him as the Yankees do. He is not making a ton of money, and therefore, the Nats have no incentive to deal him, unless they get something of greater worth, or at least equal worth, but younger. I don't think that he is a possibility for the Yanks simply because the Yankees can not offer anything to the Nationals that they need, or that the Yankees are willing to give up.

I agree. A lot of people seem to think the Nats are going to give him up cheaply, but I think it will take a good offer to get him. They know he has value and even if they didn't, the Yankees would still have to beat other teams, cause I'm sure the A's or Jays, etc would like to have a guy like that.

SoCal Pinstriper
12-04-05, 10:27 AM
Although he doesn't rank at the top defensively (but is certainly a step up from bubba in the field), I think that Corey Patterson should be included in this discussion.
1.) He will be cheap both in salary terms, and in what he commands in a trade.

2.) He is an above average CF

3.) He has tremendous potential offensive upside (which I realize might never be reached).

If Donny can get through to him, a trade for Patterson could be one of the all-time baseball steals.

If not, we dump him. No long term committment required.


Corey Patterson of
1 year/$2.8M (2005)

avoided arbitration 1/05
1 year/$0.48M (2004)
1 year/$0.365M (2003)
drafted 1998 (1-3), $3.7M signing bonus
agent: Scott Boras
ML service: 3.092

Before you rip me, keep in mind that this thread is about CFs who are available without regard for offense. In Corey's case his bat certainly deserves no regard (so far).

gold23
12-04-05, 10:37 AM
Saw a blurb in the Ledger today that the Yanks turned down an offer that included Jeremy Reed for Pavano. Now......

Straight up I am not sure if I do that. But....if the Yanks were to go out and sign someone like Jarrod Washburn, why not make this trade? A terrific defender- not good, terrific- and a 25 year old kid who tore through the minor leagues offensively and showed spurts last year of his potential at the plate.

I'd prefer Reed to just about any of the proposed players- including Wilkerson- because of the fact that he is head and shoulders better defensively than almost all of them and he has the not-so-far-fetched potential to be a very good hitter. Heck, as recently as a year ago every baseball person was claiming he'd be a batting champ within 5 years. That's my man- and if they traded Pavano (who I happen to like), as long as they replaced him with one of the several like-talented pitchers currently remaining on the market I would be thrilled.

gold23
12-04-05, 10:38 AM
Although he doesn't rank at the top defensively (but is certainly a step up from bubba in the field), I think that Corey Patterson should be included in this discussion.
1.) He will be cheap both in salary terms, and in what he commands in a trade.

2.) He is an above average CF

3.) He has tremendous potential offensive upside (which I realize might never be reached).

If Donny can get through to him, a trade for Patterson could be one of the all-time baseball steals.

If not, we dump him. No long term committment required.



Before you rip me, keep in mind that this thread is about CFs who are available without regard for offense. In Corey's case his bat certainly deserves no regard (so far).


Problem is Patterson is actually not a very good defender.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-04-05, 10:51 AM
Saw a blurb in the Ledger today that the Yanks turned down an offer that included Jeremy Reed for Pavano. Now......

Straight up I am not sure if I do that. But....if the Yanks were to go out and sign someone like Jarrod Washburn, why not make this trade? A terrific defender- not good, terrific- and a 25 year old kid who tore through the minor leagues offensively and showed spurts last year of his potential at the plate.

I'd prefer Reed to just about any of the proposed players- including Wilkerson- because of the fact that he is head and shoulders better defensively than almost all of them and he has the not-so-far-fetched potential to be a very good hitter. Heck, as recently as a year ago every baseball person was claiming he'd be a batting champ within 5 years. That's my man- and if they traded Pavano (who I happen to like), as long as they replaced him with one of the several like-talented pitchers currently remaining on the market I would be thrilled.

are you kidding me, we had the chance to trade a horrible pitcher who has only had one good season for a very good young centerfielder and didnt? Unless Cashman ends up getting more for Pavano he should be fired.

SoCal Pinstriper
12-04-05, 10:56 AM
Problem is Patterson is actually not a very good defender.I don't have defensive numbers. Is he not as good as bubba?

Irabu's Son
12-04-05, 11:04 AM
Bubba is the best defensively.

I concur. He makes some dazzlers out there... I think he would have caught the ball in the playoffs if he didn't collide with Sheffield. I'd like to see what kind of UZR and other defensive stats he could pull off with a full season in CF.

gold23
12-04-05, 11:30 AM
I don't have defensive numbers. Is he not as good as bubba?


Not defensively. While I don't think Crosby is great (he's probably a little above average), Patterson is simply not that good. He's perfectly fine defensively if he is a good offensive player- but he's pretty much all talent right now. He had a promising year two years ago with the bat, but he remains way too much of a free swinger. Talented, to be sure...but right now he'd hurt at both ends.

BJG
12-04-05, 12:24 PM
What people seem to forget about Wilkerson is that the Nationals think just as highly of him as the Yankees do.

Actually, they don't. He's coming off a bad year, 'anonymous front office sources' are trashing him in the media, he's not a Bowden type of guy, they don't even want to start him, etc.


He is not making a ton of money, and therefore, the Nats have no incentive to deal him, unless they get something of greater worth, or at least equal worth, but younger.

Wilkerson is arbitration eligible and will probably make around $4m or so. A lot for the Yankees? No. A lot for to ride the pine in Washington? Yes.

TEPLimey
12-04-05, 01:00 PM
Rank the following:


Bubba Crosby
Jason Michaels
Brad Wilkerson
Juan Pierre

if possible, give reasoning and/or statistics to support the rankings (the more details the better!)


Add any others who you think could feasibly come available....

the juan pierre as a good defensive centerfielder joke will go here.

buntsalot2
12-04-05, 01:14 PM
Womack the Dominator!

harkode2002
12-04-05, 01:22 PM
Thank you again all of you Wilkerson fans who propose giving up 1/2 of the farm system for a CF who hits all of .240. It was a dreary Sunday until I started reading these and I must admit that I used two towels to dry my eyes from the tears of laughter.

I know you cannot be serious and that you are rehearsing for a spot on Comedy Central. The trades you are proposing would be for a center fielder like Mickey Mantle, but Wilkerson - c'mon. This guy is not even work Melky even up. Bubba will hit .248 and we keep our prospects. If in fact Wilkerson came up with a career year, hit .265, 20 hr, 70 rbi., it would still represent only about 10 more runs produced than Bubba and I'm not willing to sell the farm system for 10 runs.

ComeBackShane47
12-04-05, 01:25 PM
In reality I think the Yankees will end up with Bradley as their CF. It just makes sense, seeing as how he would cost very little in a trade or possibly the Dodgers will release him, and he can be had for just money and not that much money considering teams shying away from him. This would be a good thing as the Yanks could keep their prospects, they get much better defensively and if he really is a problem they wont be commited to him long term and they can go get one of the many CF's aalible next winter.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-04-05, 01:28 PM
I don't know if its been said, but Endy Chavez. Bradley is the whole package...

harkode2002
12-04-05, 01:38 PM
Bradley tends to make some sense to me also. Out here in Anaheim, we hear of his misdeeds, but he would be somewhat cheap to obtain, his salary demands cannot be high, and he is a far, far superior player than Wilkerson. Just maybe the experienced and professional attitude of the current Yankee players and coaches would tone him done enough to turn him around.

He is a "sky is the limit" type of player whose upside is terrific. Since he would also be inexpensive to obtain in terms of players to give up, should he continue his off/on field exploits, simply release him or send him to the minors.

Munson's 'Stash
12-04-05, 01:55 PM
. The trades you are proposing would be for a center fielder like Mickey Mantle, but Wilkerson - c'mon. This guy is not even work Melky even up. Bubba will hit .248 and we keep our prospects. If in fact Wilkerson came up with a career year, hit .265, 20 hr, 70 rbi., it would still represent only about 10 more runs produced than Bubba and I'm not willing to sell the farm system for 10 runs.

Wilkerson had a bad year (largely due to injury) in '05, in but his previous 3 yrs ('02-'04) he posted OPS's of .840, .844, and .872. He is also at least average in CF and is still arb controlled in his prime years. A smart GM would have him as untouchable; the only reason he might be shopped is because Bowden is an idiot.

Melky, Henn, and Proctor are probably enough to get you the guy who carries Wilkerson's jock, but not Wilkerson.

Comparing Crosby to Wilkerson is like comparing a modern day automobile to a model-t; the current model might not be a porsche, but at least you don't have to turn a crank to start the damn thing, and after its started has a top speed of 15 mph.* They are the same age. Wilkerson has been playing full time since he broke in and Bubba is a career replacement scrub who in 173 career PA has a .554 OPS, and on top of it plays ................ty defense.

Wilkerson is probably worth at least 10 wins over Bubba, nevermind 10 runs.

*the facts on my automotive analogy might be a bit off, but you get the idea.

ppa79
12-04-05, 01:58 PM
; the only reason he might be shopped is because Bowden is an idiot.



So there is hope :D

Munson's 'Stash
12-04-05, 02:08 PM
But Bowden isn't so much of an idiot that he's not going to take the best offer. Any Yankee offer that doesn't include Cano is probably a non starter for him.

WrightIsWrong
12-04-05, 02:12 PM
Here's a thought: Jaret Wright to Anaheim for Steve Finley.They both make the same amount of $$$ for 2006 & Finley only has one year left on his deal.Supposedly,Anaheim wants to move Kotchman to 1B & Erstad back to CF & they are looking for a starter plus are desperate to dump Finley. I understand Finley is close to 80 years old(actually 41 in March) but he is solid defensively plus it's tough to get value for injury prone pitchers with a 6 ERA & 1.7WHIP.Anyway, just a thought.

ppa79
12-04-05, 02:14 PM
Here's a thought: Jaret Wright to Anaheim for Steve Finley.They both make the same amount of $$$ for 2006 & Finley only has one year left on his deal.Supposedly,Anaheim wants to move Kotchman to 1B & Erstad back to CF & they are looking for a starter plus are desperate to dump Finley. I understand Finley is close to 80 years old(actually 41 in March) but he is solid defensively plus it's tough to get value for injury prone pitchers with a 6 ERA & 1.7WHIP.Anyway, just a thought.

I would rather keep Wright for insurance in case someone in the rotation goes down.

38Special
12-04-05, 02:16 PM
Finley is a horrible defender and a horrible offender

Horrible Offender should be a synonym for Womackian

Munson's 'Stash
12-04-05, 02:29 PM
Also Erstad is burnt toast. The Angels haven't even tried to get him into CF for 2 years because he always hurts himself when out there.

Finley is a horrible defender who's coasting on his old rep. His offensive output runs in cycles. He'll have 3-5 good years and then one bad one. Then he bounces back. '93, '98, and '01 were his previous crash years. He might defend better than Bubba or Bernie (admittedly not saying much) and could/ should rebound offensively. The Angels would probably give him away just to clear the contract space.

AMYanks
12-04-05, 02:34 PM
Thank you again all of you Wilkerson fans who propose giving up 1/2 of the farm system for a CF who hits all of .240. It was a dreary Sunday until I started reading these and I must admit that I used two towels to dry my eyes from the tears of laughter.

I know you cannot be serious and that you are rehearsing for a spot on Comedy Central. The trades you are proposing would be for a center fielder like Mickey Mantle, but Wilkerson - c'mon. This guy is not even work Melky even up. Bubba will hit .248 and we keep our prospects. If in fact Wilkerson came up with a career year, hit .265, 20 hr, 70 rbi., it would still represent only about 10 more runs produced than Bubba and I'm not willing to sell the farm system for 10 runs.

Funny thing is, you actually put a lot of stock in batting average. If Bubba hits .248 (being generous), he would end up with a .290 OBP at best. If Wilkerson hits .248 (he wouldn't hit that low in the Yankees lineup), he would end up with a .360 OBP.

And a career year for him wouldn't be 20 HRs. He hit 31 HRs in 2004, before he moved into a big time pitcher's park.

I Love Wang
12-04-05, 04:16 PM
I would rather keep Wright for insurance in case someone in the rotation goes down.

If I can move Wright for someone who isn't Finley, that is, not someone with an equally horrendous contract, I would do it. Finley is a horrible, horrible player, and I have no interest in him, post-steroids.

NelsonMuntz
12-04-05, 05:11 PM
Thank you again all of you Wilkerson fans who propose giving up 1/2 of the farm system for a CF who hits all of .240. It was a dreary Sunday until I started reading these and I must admit that I used two towels to dry my eyes from the tears of laughter.

I know you cannot be serious and that you are rehearsing for a spot on Comedy Central. The trades you are proposing would be for a center fielder like Mickey Mantle, but Wilkerson - c'mon. This guy is not even work Melky even up. Bubba will hit .248 and we keep our prospects. If in fact Wilkerson came up with a career year, hit .265, 20 hr, 70 rbi., it would still represent only about 10 more runs produced than Bubba and I'm not willing to sell the farm system for 10 runs.
Are you at all familiar with the concepts of OBP or OPS?

Clemens831
12-04-05, 05:18 PM
Thank you again all of you Wilkerson fans who propose giving up 1/2 of the farm system for a CF who hits all of .240. It was a dreary Sunday until I started reading these and I must admit that I used two towels to dry my eyes from the tears of laughter.

I know you cannot be serious and that you are rehearsing for a spot on Comedy Central. The trades you are proposing would be for a center fielder like Mickey Mantle, but Wilkerson - c'mon. This guy is not even work Melky even up. Bubba will hit .248 and we keep our prospects. If in fact Wilkerson came up with a career year, hit .265, 20 hr, 70 rbi., it would still represent only about 10 more runs produced than Bubba and I'm not willing to sell the farm system for 10 runs.

You think Wilkersoon fans are being funny? How about basing a player's offensive value on their batting average? That's a real joke. His career OBP is .365. That's a valuable player, in my eyes. Plus he's got power. AND he's a very good defensive centerfielder! AND he can back up at first, as well. Two birds with one stone - when Giambi needs a spell at 1b, stick Wilkerson in there and throw Crosby into CF. BUBBA is NOT the answer. People need to realize this. (I, personally, am really into the Pavano-for-Reed swap that HOPEFULLY Cashman will decide to look into!)