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JavyVazquezIsSick
12-13-05, 04:51 PM
Besides the 3 I listed and Reed how many realistically available cfs(by that I mean somebody who we have enough to trade for and are decent MLB players) are there?

If you mean upgrades over Bernie and Bubba, there are plenty, to name a few, Granderson, Patterson, Gathright, Bradley, Jones, Davanon, and Michaels probably still can be gotten to...

NYDCYankee
12-16-05, 04:38 AM
Dodgers Contact Yankees About Pavano

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodgers16dec16,1,2939855.story?coll=la-headlines-sports

kan_t
12-16-05, 05:43 AM
Dodgers Contact Yankees About Pavano

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodgers16dec16,1,2939855.story?coll=la-headlines-sports
Jonathan Broxton plus Dioner Navarro for Pavano and cash! :D

If Dodgers thinks the price is too high, Dioner plus Chuck Tiffany is OK. :)

flymick24
12-16-05, 05:50 AM
Jonathan Broxton plus Dioner Navarro for Pavano and cash! :D

If Dodgers thinks the price is too high, Dioner plus Chuck Tiffany is OK. :)

i would do pavano for navarro and any outfielder besides jd drew

sounds reasonable, especially with their glut of catching prospects

flymick24
12-16-05, 05:52 AM
actually, i really wouldn't mind doing pavano for navarro straight up

NYDCYankee
12-16-05, 05:54 AM
actually, i really wouldn't mind doing pavano for navarro straight up


I would think we could get more for CP.

flymick24
12-16-05, 05:59 AM
I would think we could get more for CP.

it's not up to me to decide his value. but all i'm saying is that i really wouldn't mind a pavano for navarro swap.

mbn007
12-16-05, 07:04 AM
actually, i really wouldn't mind doing pavano for navarro straight up
Not enough in return. Even if the Dodogers pick up the whole remaining contract.

NYDCYankee
12-16-05, 07:05 AM
Not enough in return. Even if the Dodogers pick up the whole remaining contract.

agreed. with the prospects they have I would hope we could get a stud.

ring403
01-01-06, 12:30 AM
http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-spflash0101,0,2153540.story?coll=nyc-sports-headlines
The Yankees and Mets already are two of baseball's biggest winners this offseason. But there's a bit of business left. Nothing might happen on this front until spring training, if then, but the Mets still are looking to trade Kaz Matsui and the Yankees haven't abandoned the idea of dealing Carl Pavano...

...When the Yankees publicly have said they'd like to keep Pavano, that's just them negotiating. They know he'd do better elsewhere.

surge511
01-01-06, 12:33 AM
http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-spflash0101,0,2153540.story?coll=nyc-sports-headlines

I can see trading Pavano, but certainly not for Matsui. I hope that isn't what the reporter was pointing to. I like the idea of a C prospect much more.

NewEraYanks2527
01-01-06, 12:52 AM
That little blurb in that articale in no way lived up to the headline. Maybe if the writer found some way to put the Yankees in the title he thought someone would actually give a ................ about it. That was a waste of time.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-01-06, 12:57 AM
Trading Pavano would be a really smart move. Cashman if he is in control will get rid of him, I think he is just driving up his value, if we can get Granderson for Pavano, we should do it...

Yankees1962
01-01-06, 01:33 AM
Trading Pavano would be a really smart move. Cashman if he is in control will get rid of him, I think he is just driving up his value, if we can get Granderson for Pavano, we should do it...
Detroit is not trading Granderson!

Yankees1962
01-01-06, 01:34 AM
http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-spflash0101,0,2153540.story?coll=nyc-sports-headlines
Newsday has been trying to run Pavano out of town since last summer.

Evil Empire
01-01-06, 03:28 AM
I can see trading Pavano, but certainly not for Matsui. I hope that isn't what the reporter was pointing to. I like the idea of a C prospect much more.

Though Matsui would get us closer to the all SS team ;)

CalYankeeFan
01-01-06, 07:37 AM
I can see trading Pavano, but certainly not for Matsui. I hope that isn't what the reporter was pointing to.....

No, I think he was just saying that the Yankees might trade Pavano AND the Mets are shopping Matsui.

Net result of this deal if made.....Pavano, Halsey and Vazquez a cash for RJ....while the idea of having Navaro back is tempting, I'd like to give Pavano one more year with him healthy and out from under Mel....

YankeePride1967
01-01-06, 08:10 AM
I can see trading Pavano, but certainly not for Matsui. I hope that isn't what the reporter was pointing to. I like the idea of a C prospect much more.

That wasn't the suggestion, just that the Yanks and Mets would both like to trade the players away, not to each other.

Yankees1962
01-01-06, 08:27 AM
No, I think he was just saying that the Yankees might trade Pavano AND the Mets are shopping Matsui.

Net result of this deal if made.....Pavano, Halsey and Vazquez a cash for RJ....while the idea of having Navaro back is tempting, I'd like to give Pavano one more year with him healthy and out from under Mel....
Mel wasn't the cause of Pavano's problems.

The best case scenario for the Yankees is that they keep Pavano and he rewards them with a healthy, productive year, thus reestablishing his trade value if they decide to move him next off-season.

jimmyclark
01-01-06, 08:29 AM
Why trade something when their value is absolutely zilch? Let's see if Guidry and Kerrigan can do something with him before we paint the "he's not a New York player" on his forehead. If those two can't cut it, reunite him with Alyssa Milano.

CalYankeeFan
01-01-06, 09:12 AM
Mel wasn't the cause of Pavano's problems.

The best case scenario for the Yankees is that they keep Pavano and he rewards them with a healthy, productive year, thus reestablishing his trade value if they decide to move him next off-season.

Injuries wre probably the main cause,I'm just saying he has a clean bill of health AND a new coach...he comes back next year with a clean slate...

ICEBERG18
01-01-06, 09:48 AM
I can see trading Pavano, but certainly not for Matsui. I hope that isn't what the reporter was pointing to. I like the idea of a C prospect much more.


No where in the article did he proposed Pavano for Matsui or even suggest it. :dunno:

longtimeyankeefan
01-01-06, 09:51 AM
Mel wasn't the cause of Pavano's problems.

Didn't you get the memo? Mel was the cause of all things bad on the pitching staff the last ten seasons and had absolutely nothing to do with any of the successes of the staff during that time.

Cappy
01-01-06, 10:26 AM
Didn't you get the memo? Mel was the cause of all things bad on the pitching staff the last ten seasons and had absolutely nothing to do with any of the successes of the staff during that time.
I heard Mel took a tire iron to Mussina's elbow.

I also heard it was Mel in disguise who hit that ball off of Wright's elbow.

Mel also liked to coat the bullpen rubber with Vaseline, hoping that one of his pitchers would break an ankle.

JeffWeaverFan
01-01-06, 11:28 AM
Newsday has been trying to run Pavano out of town since last summer.
So, what you are saying is that the writers at Newsday have a vendetta against Carl Pavano and have decided to make up rumors that the Yankees will trade him and that he doesn't like it here. These writers have decided instead of doing their job, they will make lies up about Pavano... My guess is there is some truth behind it. I think one of our pitchers will be traded late in the offseason.

JeffWeaverFan
01-01-06, 11:30 AM
Mel wasn't the cause of Pavano's problems.
No he was not. Nor did he help Pavano's problems. Nor did he help Wright's. Nor did he help Javy's. Nor RJ's.

the_coach
01-01-06, 11:31 AM
Keep Pavano, trade Wright for anything.

YankeePride1967
01-01-06, 11:35 AM
Keep Pavano, trade Wright for anything.

Jaret Wright wouldn't get us a can of Tomato Soup.

Yankees1962
01-01-06, 12:01 PM
No he was not. Nor did he help Pavano's problems. Nor did he help Wright's. Nor did he help Javy's. Nor RJ's.
Yeah, yeah, we heard that before. He's gone now so you'll need a new whipping boy. I forgot you still have Pavano then again, Torre is still a favorite target of yours.

Yankees1962
01-01-06, 12:02 PM
So, what you are saying is that the writers at Newsday have a vendetta against Carl Pavano and have decided to make up rumors that the Yankees will trade him and that he doesn't like it here. These writers have decided instead of doing their job, they will make lies up about Pavano... My guess is there is some truth behind it. I think one of our pitchers will be traded late in the offseason.
Their vendetta is almost as deep as yours is for Pavano.

BronxByTheBay
01-01-06, 12:43 PM
Their vendetta is almost as deep as yours is for Pavano.

I wouldn't call it a vendetta. It's just the media doing what the media does. Newsday ran an unsourced claim about Pavano supposedly disliking it here. So now it's that paper's job to back up its own stories whenever referring to Pavano. Common practice. If nothing happens with Pavano, then of course the earlier piece will never be referenced again. If he's traded, it becomes "see, we told you so".

JWF is not unlike a lot of fans here - he believes the sports media when it suits his own purposes and ignores them when it doesn't.

JeterRodriguezSheff
01-01-06, 12:54 PM
Why trade something when their value is absolutely zilch? Let's see if Guidry and Kerrigan can do something with him before we paint the "he's not a New York player" on his forehead. If those two can't cut it, reunite him with Alyssa Milano.

Its not that he isnt a NY player. He just sucks. Look at his career numbers and you would find 2004 to be an abberation.

SoCal Pinstriper
01-01-06, 01:47 PM
Why trade something when their value is absolutely zilch? Interestingly, the inflated FA market has made Carl look like a decent value. Even if he never regains his 2004 form, a healthy Pavano can eat some innings (which translated means, "make alot of mediocre starts"). These days, that appears to be worth about 10mil per.

JeffWeaverFan
01-01-06, 04:39 PM
Yeah, yeah, we heard that before. He's gone now so you'll need a new whipping boy. I forgot you still have Pavano then again, Torre is still a favorite target of yours.
I was just stating a fact. Yep, Pavano and Torre are still here for me except I'm hopeful that Pavano will pitch well (if he's still a Yankee) and Torre will manage better.

JeffWeaverFan
01-01-06, 04:41 PM
Their vendetta is almost as deep as yours is for Pavano.
That's just incorrect. I have no vendetta against Pavano. I just think that 1. He's not that good of a pitcher, 2. He could have pitched through injury last year and 3. He would rather not be a Yankee.

JeffWeaverFan
01-01-06, 04:42 PM
I wouldn't call it a vendetta. It's just the media doing what the media does. Newsday ran an unsourced claim about Pavano supposedly disliking it here. So now it's that paper's job to back up its own stories whenever referring to Pavano. Common practice. If nothing happens with Pavano, then of course the earlier piece will never be referenced again. If he's traded, it becomes "see, we told you so".

Just an FYI, it wasn't just Newsday. It was a number of media outlets.

BronxByTheBay
01-01-06, 05:13 PM
Just an FYI, it wasn't just Newsday. It was a number of media outlets.

We've been through this before - you claimed "numerous" media outlets had discussed Pavano's supposed unhappiness and it turned out to be two or so. One of which was Newsday discussing its own previous articles.

JeffWeaverFan
01-01-06, 05:22 PM
We've been through this before - you claimed "numerous" media outlets had discussed Pavano's supposed unhappiness and it turned out to be two or so. One of which was Newsday discussing its own previous articles.
I know the Ledger also reported this. So did ESPN, although, to be fair, they were probably getting it from the Ledger or Newsday. Paul Quantrill also said this. So did AJ Burnett.

BronxByTheBay
01-01-06, 05:28 PM
I know the Ledger also reported this. So did ESPN, although, to be fair, they were probably getting it from the Ledger or Newsday. Paul Quantrill also said this. So did AJ Burnett.

Show links to all of the above with stories wherein they state Pavano isn't happy here.

Or would you prefer to first nuance what it is you'd like to claim they said and then link to the stories? I'll leave it up to you.

JeffWeaverFan
01-01-06, 05:48 PM
Show links to all of the above with stories wherein they state Pavano isn't happy here.

Or would you prefer to first nuance what it is you'd like to claim they said and then link to the stories? I'll leave it up to you.
I'd prefer to first nuance what I'd claim and then link the stories. Much prefer actually - it's a pain to find these stories. But, since you are such a dear friend, here you go:

http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1132321522114480.xml&coll=1


Right-hander Carl Pavano, who signed a four-year contract with the Yankees a year ago, has been telling friends he wants out.

A person who spoke with Pavano late in the 2005 season said Pavano was "miserable" with the Yankees and that he would like the team to try to trade him this winter. He has not yet asked the Yankees to trade him, and he might not make the request formal, but he might not have to.


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/sports/epaper/2005/09/10/a5b_marnotes_0910.html


"He found it to be a bit of a cold place," said Quantrill, who pitched with Pavano earlier this year. "They're just a bunch of professionals. You show up, you go home. No friends.''

Can't find the Burnett one, but it was posted here somewhere.

BronxByTheBay
01-01-06, 05:51 PM
I'd prefer to first nuance what I'd claim and then link the stories. Much prefer actually - it's a pain to find these stories. But, since you are such a dear friend, here you go:

http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1132321522114480.xml&coll=1




http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/sports/epaper/2005/09/10/a5b_marnotes_0910.html



Can't find the Burnett one, but it was posted here somewhere.


So once again "numerous" becomes "two". I think you should go back to agonizing over Damon leading off - it sounds like a much more promising meme for you this year than banging the Pavano drum again. OR you can call him a "wimp" three or four more times. That worked out well for you.

Yankees1962
01-01-06, 05:58 PM
I was just stating a fact. Yep, Pavano and Torre are still here for me except I'm hopeful that Pavano will pitch well (if he's still a Yankee) and Torre will manage better.
That's your problem, you mistakenly think your stated opinion as fact.

Mattpat11
01-01-06, 06:14 PM
Didn't you get the memo? Mel was the cause of all things bad on the pitching staff the last ten seasons and had absolutely nothing to do with any of the successes of the staff during that time.Its also Mel's fault that Vazquez sucked in Arizona and that Weaver is so mediocre in LA.

Mattpat11
01-01-06, 06:16 PM
Why trade something when their value is absolutely zilch? Let's see if Guidry and Kerrigan can do something with him before we paint the "he's not a New York player" on his forehead. .I don't know if "He's not a New York Player"

I think its more of "He's not a good player"

BJG
01-01-06, 06:46 PM
I don't know if "He's not a New York Player"

I think its more of "He's not a good player"

You could even parse it down to, "He's not a healthy player". He had had elbow or shoulder problems in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2005 and those problems have hindered his performance and/or IP in each of those seasons. This has nothing to do with Mel or 'being able to play in NY' or whether or not he dogged it last year. To me, that's all irrelevant. What is relevant is that he is very, very likely to be hurt again, and when he's hurt, he either doesn't pitch at all or doesn't pitch well. Knowing that, if I can trade him for something right now, before he gets hurt again and has no value, I think I have to. There's a market for him, so take advantage of it before it dries up completely.

BronxByTheBay
01-01-06, 07:04 PM
That's your problem, you mistakenly think your stated opinion as fact.

Just noticed that, eh? ;)

sjb23
01-01-06, 08:08 PM
In my opinion, if the Yanks were going to trade Pavano, they would have signed a free agent starter to replace him, such as a Jarod Washburn or one of the other mediocre starters that were available. They have too many question marks with each of their starters to be trading Pavano and not getting at least a bonafide #3 or #4 starter back in return. Since that doesn't seem likely, I think Pavano will be counted on to rebound this year as a New York Yankee.

YankeePride1967
01-01-06, 08:13 PM
In my opinion, if the Yanks were going to trade Pavano, they would have signed a free agent starter to replace him, such as a Jarod Washburn or one of the other mediocre starters that were available. They have too many question marks with each of their starters to be trading Pavano and not getting at least a bonafide #3 or #4 starter back in return. Since that doesn't seem likely, I think Pavano will be counted on to rebound this year as a New York Yankee.

Right now we have:

1) RJ
2.) Mussina
3.) Wang
4.) Chacon
5.) Pavano
6.) Wright

So even trading Pavano still gives us 5 starters. Taking it a step further and keeping in mind I'm not advocating it, nor do I think it will happen, but what if we signed Clemens? Or between now and March make a trade? As things are, I agree that Pavano isn't going anywhere, nor would I until mid ST at the earliest, but things may be going on that we are not aware of.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-01-06, 08:23 PM
Wright/Small would make fine 5th starters if Pavano is traded especially with this offense...

sjb23
01-01-06, 08:33 PM
Right now we have:

1) RJ
2.) Mussina
3.) Wang
4.) Chacon
5.) Pavano
6.) Wright

So even trading Pavano still gives us 5 starters.

5 starters who most folks think are susceptible to either injury or a sub-par performance, or even both. Trading Pavano makes no sense unless they get a similar starter in return -- they can't afford the chance of losing one of the remaining 5 and replacing him with the likes of an Aaron Small or a Sean Henn or a Jorge DePaula, who are all inferior to a healthy Pavano.

YankeePride1967
01-01-06, 08:35 PM
5 starters who most folks think are susceptible to either injury or a sub-par performance, or even both. Trading Pavano makes no sense unless they get a similar starter in return -- they can't afford the chance of losing one of the remaining 5 and replacing him with the likes of an Aaron Small or a Sean Henn or a Jorge DePaula, who are all inferior to a healthy Pavano.

I agree, which I said in the part of my post that was left out.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-01-06, 08:44 PM
5 starters who most folks think are susceptible to either injury or a sub-par performance, or even both. Trading Pavano makes no sense unless they get a similar starter in return -- they can't afford the chance of losing one of the remaining 5 and replacing him with the likes of an Aaron Small or a Sean Henn or a Jorge DePaula, who are all inferior to a healthy Pavano.

A "healthy" Pavano is an average pitcher. I'd take my chances with Small, Henn, DePaula, or Wright if we can improve the defense and offense with although a pipedream someone like Abreu...

sjb23
01-01-06, 08:48 PM
I agree, which I said in the part of my post that was left out.


sorry -- I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I believe we're both on the same page then....

YankeePride1967
01-01-06, 09:16 PM
sorry -- I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I believe we're both on the same page then....

No problem, I agree the best move would be to see how our rotation shapes up before doing any rash moves.

sjb23
01-01-06, 09:17 PM
A "healthy" Pavano is an average pitcher. I'd take my chances with Small, Henn, DePaula, or Wright if we can improve the defense and offense with although a pipedream someone like Abreu...

yes, a pipedream it is -- but suppose the Phillies were dumb enough to trade Abreu for a package headed by Pavano. Would the improved offense and defense be strong enough to offset a playoff starting rotation headed by a 1-2 punch of Randy Johnson and....Shawn Chicon....or Mike Mussina and.....Jaret Wright????

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-01-06, 09:29 PM
yes, a pipedream it is -- but suppose the Phillies were dumb enough to trade Abreu for a package headed by Pavano. Would the improved offense and defense be strong enough to offset a playoff starting rotation headed by a 1-2 punch of Randy Johnson and....Shawn Chicon....or Mike Mussina and.....Jaret Wright????

The thing is Pavano isn't an above average pitcher, so losing him doesn't take anything away from the rotation in terms of strength. All we lose is an average starting pitcher, which can be had for practically nothing...

PS: You forgot Wang...

BJG
01-01-06, 09:47 PM
yes, a pipedream it is -- but suppose the Phillies were dumb enough to trade Abreu for a package headed by Pavano. Would the improved offense and defense be strong enough to offset a playoff starting rotation headed by a 1-2 punch of Randy Johnson and....Shawn Chicon....or Mike Mussina and.....Jaret Wright????

The problem is that when Pavano gets hurt again, he still won't be in the rotation (or he will be in the rotation and be the below average pitcher he usually is...I'm not sure which scenario is worse). To me, it seems a choice between Pavano on the DL and a scramble to replace him in the rotation and, in your hypothetical, Abreu and a scramble in the rotation to replace (with the door still open to make a move for Clemens for a year). I'll take the latter.

JeffWeaverFan
01-01-06, 10:13 PM
So once again "numerous" becomes "two". I think you should go back to agonizing over Damon leading off - it sounds like a much more promising meme for you this year than banging the Pavano drum again. OR you can call him a "wimp" three or four more times. That worked out well for you.
2 sources? It's at least 4. Newsday, Ledger, his former teammate Paul Quantrill, and his best friend AJ Burnett. By the way, a simple "thank you" would have been nice since I had to search to find those links for you. I guess it was implied so your welcome.

I'm not agonizing over Damon leading off. In fact, I've said many times that it's not a big deal either way, just that the team would be slightly better with Jeter leading off.

I could call him a "wimp" but I don't really feel like it. I'd prefer to hope that he does well next year if he's on the team.

JeffWeaverFan
01-01-06, 10:14 PM
That's your problem, you mistakenly think your stated opinion as fact.
Nope. I've said all along that my feelings on Pavano are just that: How I feel about Pavano. Not necessarily correct, just what I think.

Mattpat11
01-01-06, 10:22 PM
The thing is Pavano isn't an above average pitcher, so losing him doesn't take anything away from the rotation in terms of strength. All we lose is an average starting pitcher, which can be had for practically nothing...

PS: You forgot Wang...People seem to be of the impression that if we're just patient, Carl Pavano is going to turn into a completely different player than he's been for his whole career.

Something about the greatest pitcher of all time rebounding from an off year, so of course any old schmo can.

ShaneTravis
01-06-06, 01:18 PM
With the Phillies continuing to shop Bobby Abreu, in return asking for pitching...
Why is Carl Pavano still on this team?

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5224028

Rosenthal states the Phil's would acquire Miggy and then flip him for pitching.

Here are several more culminated links which have Abreu for -------(fill in blank).
http://fantasybaseball.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_previousnews.asp?sport=MLB&leaguenum=&id=5698
If the Phil's are so hot to get rid of him do the Yanks have a match?

Yankees1962
01-06-06, 01:22 PM
With the Phillies continuing to shop Bobby Abreu, in return asking for pitching...
Why is Carl Pavano still on this team?

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5224028

Rosenthal states the Phil's would acquire Miggy and then flip him for pitching.

Here are several more culminated links which have Abreu for -------(fill in blank).
http://fantasybaseball.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_previousnews.asp?sport=MLB&leaguenum=&id=5698
If the Phil's are so hot to get rid of him do the Yanks have a match?
For a guy that many of you say isn't a good pitcher, you really think that you can get Abreu in return?

MTYankee23
01-06-06, 01:25 PM
For a guy that many of you say isn't a good pitcher, you really think that you can get Abreu in return?

There are enough people that surprisingly think that he can be a good pitcher, especially in the NL East (although that ballpark would be tough on him). There's a CHANCE he could actually be a good pitcher, but having the quantity of starting pitchers available to us as opposed to what the Phillies have available, it might not be all that far fetched.

Yankees1962
01-06-06, 01:27 PM
There are enough people that surprisingly think that he can be a good pitcher, especially in the NL East (although that ballpark would be tough on him). There's a CHANCE he could actually be a good pitcher, but having the quantity of starting pitchers available to us as opposed to what the Phillies have available, it might not be all that far fetched.
It's the quality or more precise the health of the Yankee pitchers that we have available that is worrying me.

MTYankee23
01-06-06, 01:30 PM
It's the quality or more precise the health of the Yankee pitchers that we have available that is worrying me.

I would agree with this, but keeping Pavano around on our roster isn't necessarily going to remedy it. Acquiring a well-above average offensive player like Abreu at least improves the team enough to cover up for it might though.

ShaneTravis
01-06-06, 01:44 PM
For a guy that many of you say isn't a good pitcher, you really think that you can get Abreu in return?

I agree it would take more than Carl to get Abreu. But, wasn't Philly going hard after Carl when he was a free agent?
I would imagine it will take Henn,Tanyon,Proctor,Pavano.....take your pick on what combination.

And Philly is actively shopping him, calling Baltimore,Chicago to find a match.
Keep in mind Bobby makes $13 million a year so while they are looking for a trading partner they are limited in what teams can take that contract.

As far as the "You's" out there saying he isn't a good pitcher....Abreu last year in the NL was in the top 7 in BB,Obp,SB,Runs plus a gold glover.

And when in Carl's history was he ever more valuable than Abreu?

Comparing a pitcher to hitter is very tough but Bobby is one of the most complete ball players in the majors.

ryanthe13th
01-06-06, 02:01 PM
No one is saying that Pavano is more valuable that Abreu. That is just crazy to even think. Abreu could be obtained in a trade that included Pavano is more along the avenue I think people are traveling.

Do you think that Philadephia would at all entertain a Wright + Sturtze + Proctor deal instead of a Pavano deal?

mjdlight
01-06-06, 02:02 PM
If the Yanks can land Abreu for Pavano + bullpen flotsam and jetsam + cash, they absolutely must make that deal. The lineup would go from being Scary Good to An Absolute Monster of Death and Destruction. The OF defense would improve with Sheff shifted to DH.

Damon
Jeter
Sheff
Arod
Abreu
Matsui
Giambi
Cano
Posada

Absolutely nowhere to hide with that lineup. None.

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-06-06, 02:44 PM
If the Yanks can land Abreu for Pavano + bullpen flotsam and jetsam + cash, they absolutely must make that deal. The lineup would go from being Scary Good to An Absolute Monster of Death and Destruction. The OF defense would improve with Sheff shifted to DH.

Damon
Jeter
Sheff
Arod
Abreu
Matsui
Giambi
Cano
Posada

Absolutely nowhere to hide with that lineup. None.

Why do you have the second best hitter on the team batting 7th?

SINCE77 2
01-06-06, 02:48 PM
Why do you have the second best hitter on the team batting 7th?


I'd bat him 3rd due to his ability to walk, but that hardly makes him the 2nd best hitter on the team.

mjdlight
01-06-06, 02:53 PM
Why do you have the second best hitter on the team batting 7th?

Javy,

You could easily make the argument for moving Giambi up in the lineup. I merely put him at 7th because I'd still like to see him consistently produce what he gave us after May last year. If he did that, undoubtedly he'd move up in the lineup in no time. But the guys I have in front of him are no slouches themselves. :) And that's the point...that lineup would be an embarssement of riches.

JeffWeaverFan
01-06-06, 02:59 PM
I'd bat him 3rd due to his ability to walk, but that hardly makes him the 2nd best hitter on the team.
If he hits like he did last year, he is our 2nd best hitter. He certainly was last year (which is really amazing considering how he started off the year).

Jace
01-06-06, 03:33 PM
I'd bat him 3rd due to his ability to walk, but that hardly makes him the 2nd best hitter on the team.

I think he showed a little more than an ability to walk last year.

SINCE77 2
01-06-06, 03:37 PM
If he hits like he did last year, he is our 2nd best hitter. He certainly was last year (which is really amazing considering how he started off the year).



Hmm...

6th in TB with 223
6th in XBH with 46
8th in hits with 113
1st in BB with 108 (19 of which were HBP)
9th in doubles with 14
2nd in Slug with .975
3rd in HR with 32
3rd in SO with 109

Maybe I don't appreciate walks as much as some do, but I don't see where a walk/SO/HR guy gets the 2nd best player nod when he didn't do much else offensively.

Jace
01-06-06, 03:40 PM
If the Yanks can land Abreu for Pavano + bullpen flotsam and jetsam + cash, they absolutely must make that deal. The lineup would go from being Scary Good to An Absolute Monster of Death and Destruction. The OF defense would improve with Sheff shifted to DH.

Damon
Jeter
Sheff
Arod
Abreu
Matsui
Giambi
Cano
Posada

Absolutely nowhere to hide with that lineup. None.

Torre wouldn't do this and Damon would probably forfeit his contract before hitting 9th, but I would have:

Jeter
Giambi
Arod
Abreu
Sheff
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Damon

Damon's good OBP skills would make him the leadoff guy the 2nd time through without taking ABs away from better hitters. This lineup would be over 1000 runs if everyone had last year's stats. It would also eat success for breakfast (with skim milk).

It won't happen, however, because the Phillies will insist on Wang as a starting point in any deal for Abreu. They wanted him in a deal for a backup and never even mentioned wanting Pavano in that deal. The Phillies would also deal Abreu partly to drop salary, and getting Pavano doesn't accomplish that. We would have to pay half or more.

Bomberfanfor57years
01-06-06, 05:25 PM
I think this just might be possible. It depends on how Pavano pitches in spring training. If in the unlikely event this does happen, I would like to see the following lineup:
1. Damon
2. Jeter
3. A-Rod
4. Giambi
5. Sheff
6. Abreu
7. Matsui
8. Posada
9. Cano

Kulish29
01-06-06, 05:26 PM
Do you think that Philadephia would at all entertain a Wright + Sturtze + Proctor deal instead of a Pavano deal?

If Cash took the Phils GM out for drinks and then roofied said drinks, sure.

Kulish29
01-06-06, 05:28 PM
Would anyone be against a Pavano, Sturtze, and Duncan for Abreu and a prospect?

Yankeeah
01-06-06, 05:31 PM
Would anyone be against a Pavano, Sturtze, and Duncan for Abreu and a prospect?

Whose the Philly prospect were getting?

Also, this is just specilation, correct?

Kulish29
01-06-06, 05:34 PM
Whose the Philly prospect were getting?

Also, this is just specilation, correct?

Yes, complete speculation.

As far as the prospect goes, I dont know. It would have to be a good one considering the package the Yankees would be giving up.

Yankeeah
01-06-06, 05:38 PM
Yes, complete speculation.

As far as the prospect goes, I dont know. It would have to be a good one considering the package the Yankees would be giving up.

If we give up Duncan, I think we should be getting some sort of top 5 soon to be ready prospect. Doubt theyd give us that young lefty they got.

Kulish29
01-06-06, 05:44 PM
If we give up Duncan, I think we should be getting some sort of top 5 soon to be ready prospect. Doubt theyd give us that young lefty they got.

Hamels? Probably not. Although, it doesnt hurt to ask. :)

ryanthe13th
01-06-06, 06:00 PM
If Cash took the Phils GM out for drinks and then roofied said drinks, sure.

You got me. I am laughing at myself now.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
01-07-06, 12:46 AM
"As of right now, there's no role for (Leiter), but who's to say that won't be the case after six weeks of spring training?" General Manager Brian Cashman said. "If I have an injury or a trade I have to consider, I have Al as support right now."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/sports/baseball/07base.html

Just a quote from Cashman today about the Leiter signing. Could mean something, could mean nothing. But also might open up the possibility of a deal involving a Pavano and another bullpen arm (like a Sturtze) because the Yankees have depth and Leiter can slot in as a swing man in the pen. My personal opinion is the Leiter signing is essentially a no risk minor league deal, but again, something to watch.

Yankeeah
01-07-06, 12:51 AM
Someone has to get traded, most likely in Spring Training.

DJ27
01-07-06, 01:23 AM
I think this just might be possible. It depends on how Pavano pitches in spring training. If in the unlikely event this does happen, I would like to see the following lineup:
1. Damon
2. Jeter
3. A-Rod
4. Giambi
5. Sheff
6. Abreu
7. Matsui
8. Posada
9. Cano

Pretty impressive... and it moves Sheff to the DH spot which is where he needs to be starting this season to extend his career in NY.

Yankeeah
01-07-06, 01:29 AM
If by some mircale we do land Abreu and keep Sheff we could have one of the deepest lineups ever. 3-8 could put up 25 homers.

genius-24
01-07-06, 04:22 AM
Why do we need to overflow our lineup with super stars, it doesnt really do much cosidering what we have been went through in last couple of years where we always had monster lineup with mediocre pitching.

Pitching wins games. That's the key to win MOST of the games. No pitching = No long term success. So lets try to gether our pitching first, then try to fix our lineup which is already very stronge. Also let's not trade top prospects for short term replacement which is kinda unnecceserry. Trading duncon etc. for abreu will just increase our payrole which is already sky high.

I would rather try to trade those prospects for top pitching then top hitting. Pitching is the SECRET KEY to winning world serieses not hitting. :2thumbs:

Yankees1962
01-07-06, 05:34 AM
Some of you are wasting your time speculating because this trade is not going to happen unless you're going to include Hughes. The Phillies are not going take our garbage for the caliber of player we want in return.

flymick24
01-07-06, 05:59 AM
Would anyone be against a Pavano, Sturtze, and Duncan for Abreu and a prospect?

it would depend greatly on the caliber of prospect coming from the phils (greg golson or mike bourn would be nice :D )

but in general, i am against trading duncan at all. if abreu were even just 2 years younger, i'd strongly consider it, but he'll be 32 in march and will probably begin to decline in a year or two.

NewEraYanks2527
01-07-06, 10:25 AM
Sorry guys but Abreu isn't coming here and the Yankees do not need him anyways. Had the Yankees not resigned Matsui than I could see a need. Right now we need a good defensive corner ofer that is solid at the plate so that Giambi and Sheff can alternate at DH. We do not need another superstar.

yanksphan
01-07-06, 12:53 PM
Sorry guys but Abreu isn't coming here and the Yankees do not need him anyways. Had the Yankees not resigned Matsui than I could see a need. Right now we need a good defensive corner ofer that is solid at the plate so that Giambi and Sheff can alternate at DH. We do not need another superstar.

We missed out on Encarnacion a few weeks back...would have been perfect.

JeffWeaverFan
01-07-06, 01:51 PM
Hmm...

6th in TB with 223
6th in XBH with 46
8th in hits with 113
1st in BB with 108 (19 of which were HBP)
9th in doubles with 14
2nd in Slug with .975
3rd in HR with 32
3rd in SO with 109

Maybe I don't appreciate walks as much as some do, but I don't see where a walk/SO/HR guy gets the 2nd best player nod when he didn't do much else offensively.
Those numbers aren't fair as he didn't play for a lot of games in the beginning of the season. He was 2nd on the team in OPS, first in OBP, second in SLG, and second in OPS+.

BJG
01-07-06, 04:12 PM
Hmm...

6th in TB with 223
6th in XBH with 46
8th in hits with 113
1st in BB with 108 (19 of which were HBP)
9th in doubles with 14
2nd in Slug with .975
3rd in HR with 32
3rd in SO with 109

Maybe I don't appreciate walks as much as some do, but I don't see where a walk/SO/HR guy gets the 2nd best player nod when he didn't do much else offensively.

HBP totals are not part of walk totals, though they are calculated in OBP. He walked 108 times, 5 times intentionally.

As for the counting stats, he was 8th on the team in plate appearences, 207 behind Jeter, 170 behind AROD, 159 behind Matsui, 140 behind Sheffield, etc. That does tend to have an effect on those things. As noted, he did the best job on the team at not making outs both in an OBP sense and a SecA sense (SecA measuring how many bases he covered without making an out, so combining all hits, BB, SB, etc.) and the second best job on the team in hitting for power both in a SLG and IsoP sense. This is how runs are generated.

Yankeeah
01-07-06, 04:19 PM
Sorry guys but Abreu isn't coming here and the Yankees do not need him anyways. Had the Yankees not resigned Matsui than I could see a need. Right now we need a good defensive corner ofer that is solid at the plate so that Giambi and Sheff can alternate at DH. We do not need another superstar.

I don't think anyone actually thinks Abreu is infact coming here. Pipe dream.

I agree about the solid defensive R/LF, but I don't know whats actually available on the market right now.

The FUTURE
01-07-06, 06:25 PM
Jason Michaels is available for a SU guy, the phillies want another SU man so they can move Ryan Madson to the Starting Lineup, if we could send Sturtze and something that would interest them, it could work. Michaels is prob. our best option for a RF who can hit 7th and allow shef to DH

Kulish29
01-07-06, 07:11 PM
Jason Michaels is available for a SU guy, the phillies want another SU man so they can move Ryan Madson to the Starting Lineup, if we could send Sturtze and something that would interest them, it could work. Michaels is prob. our best option for a RF who can hit 7th and allow shef to DH

Proctor and Henn for Michaels

genius-24
01-07-06, 07:17 PM
The Micheals deal makes lot of sense. If that doesnt workout then we should try to aquire austin kearns of the reds in return for sometype of pitching.

If yanks had signed free agen Mark Sweeney we wouldn't be talking about trading sturtz+minor leagures etc for micheals... b/c... sweeney plays RF and LF in the outfield. He also has good OBP when comapring to other utility men. More, he also plays first base which increases flexibility in our roster.
I know many ppl here have talked about signing RF/1B/DH type of guy...BUT... sadly we missed our PERFECT opportunity. :mad:

Furthermore, yanks should try to deal wright plus cash to the rangers for pitcher Juan dominguez.
Rangers' back end of the rotation is very mediocre. We know padilla will suck. Having padilla in the 3rd spot of the rotation shows how weak their rotation is. I think cash is about to pull something off when its the right time, that's why he finishing up the rest of the business, and eagarly waiting for the right moment to pop up. Anyway, This deal will give us a starter back, who will most likely work in the AAA, and will come to ML in case of injuries. This will open up a spot for an outfielder such as micheals who can often play RF allowing sheff to DH. Also dominguez's ERA in opponents ballpark is in high 2 range. ;)

Thoughts...

genius-24
01-07-06, 07:20 PM
Proctor and Henn for Michaels

Sadly, this isnt happening. I think we must include sturtz in this deal because of his experience in ML. Proctor and henn showed that they are not good at ML level, YET. Also there is no promise involving those players.

Kulish29
01-07-06, 09:18 PM
Sadly, this isnt happening. I think we must include sturtz in this deal because of his experience in ML. Proctor and henn showed that they are not good at ML level, YET. Also there is no promise involving those players.

I disagree about the 'no promise' thing. Proctor, yes, he's just a warm body who throws hard. Henn on the other hand is left handed and throws in the low-to-mid 90's and is still realtivley young.

Yankeeah
01-07-06, 09:28 PM
If yanks had signed free agen Mark Sweeney we wouldn't be talking about trading sturtz+minor leagures etc for micheals b/c sweeney plays RF and LF in the outfield. He also has good OBP when comapring to other utility men. More, he also plays first base increase lot of flexibility, and i know many ppl here have talked about signing RF/1B/DH type of guy...but sadly we missed him. :mad:

I was all for Sweeney, but he probably wanted to stay on the West Coast.

genius-24
01-07-06, 10:04 PM
I disagree about the 'no promise' thing. Proctor, yes, he's just a warm body who throws hard. Henn on the other hand is left handed and throws in the low-to-mid 90's and is still realtivley young.

"Promise" meaning someone who was drafted with high hopes, such as delmon younge or upton brothers,also, someone who flurished in the minors and everyone around him had high hopes for him.

Kulish29
01-07-06, 11:45 PM
"Promise" meaning someone who was drafted with high hopes, such as delmon younge or upton brothers,also, someone who flurished in the minors and everyone around him had high hopes for him.

That doesnt mean Sean Henn doesnt have promise. He's still young and still has a chance to improve.

guidry36
01-08-06, 12:03 AM
That doesnt mean Sean Henn doesnt have promise. He's still young and still has a chance to improve.

If Henn doesn't get a chance in the 2007 rotation, he could definitely get a shot as a reliever. It will be interesting to watch him in Columbus in 06'.

JeffWeaverFan
01-08-06, 02:12 PM
Sadly, this isnt happening. I think we must include sturtz in this deal because of his experience in ML. Proctor and henn showed that they are not good at ML level, YET. Also there is no promise involving those players.
Henn definitely has promise. There's a reason we didn't want to include him in the Chacon trade.

freebubba
01-09-06, 05:03 PM
Anyone who thinks that Jeter should still bat leadoff after the addition of Damon should be taken out to the woodshed and whipped. Jeter hitting leadoff for the last three years has irritated me to no end. I realize it was necessary, but man. The ONLY problem, if one exists, is the fact that Jeter is being replaced in the leadoff spot with, well, statistically, Derek Jeter. Jeter k's more, but he draws more walks. Given the choice, Joe trusts Jeter, and rightfully so, as the "better" situational hitter. Jeter hits second, end of discussion, kill the topic.

Yankeeah
01-09-06, 05:41 PM
Anyone who thinks that Jeter should still bat leadoff after the addition of Damon should be taken out to the woodshed and whipped. Jeter hitting leadoff for the last three years has irritated me to no end. I realize it was necessary, but man. The ONLY problem, if one exists, is the fact that Jeter is being replaced in the leadoff spot with, well, statistically, Derek Jeter. Jeter k's more, but he draws more walks. Given the choice, Joe trusts Jeter, and rightfully so, as the "better" situational hitter. Jeter hits second, end of discussion, kill the topic.

Why did it iratate you to no end? Jeter has had a better OBP than Johnny 9 of the last 10 years. The job of the leadoff hitter is to get on base (which Jeter does better) and to put yourself in the best position to score. Damon is a batter base stealer, but few players run the bases like Jeter.

Don't present your opinion, give two general stats, and then say that no other opinion matters.

Sam18
01-09-06, 05:47 PM
Anyone who thinks that Jeter should still bat leadoff after the addition of Damon should be taken out to the woodshed and whipped.

So anyone who thinks the Yankees should construct the best lineup possible should be beaten and whipped?

ryanthe13th
01-09-06, 07:32 PM
Jeter batting 1st vs Lefties
Damon batting 1st vs Righties.


Do it.

Jersey Yankee
01-09-06, 07:39 PM
Anyone who thinks that Jeter should still bat leadoff after the addition of Damon should be taken out to the woodshed and whipped. Jeter hitting leadoff for the last three years has irritated me to no end. I realize it was necessary, but man. The ONLY problem, if one exists, is the fact that Jeter is being replaced in the leadoff spot with, well, statistically, Derek Jeter. Jeter k's more, but he draws more walks. Given the choice, Joe trusts Jeter, and rightfully so, as the "better" situational hitter. Jeter hits second, end of discussion, kill the topic.
Do you have any stats as to what both Jeter and Damon have done in the leadoff spot for the first inning?

Both have excellent baserunning skills, so is there a reason (if any) in which you may prefer Damon batting in front of Jeter after the 1st inning?

Sam18
01-09-06, 07:42 PM
Jeter batting 1st vs Lefties
Damon batting 1st vs Righties.


Do it.

Jeter had a .392 OBP against righties while Damon had a .361 OBP against righties. For their careers Damon has a .357 OBP against righties while Jeter has a .381 OBP against righties. Its not even close.

ryanthe13th
01-09-06, 07:44 PM
Jeter had a .392 OBP against righties while Damon had a .361 OBP against righties. For their careers Damon has a .357 OBP against righties while Jeter has a .381 OBP against righties. Its not even close.

Maybe I flip flopped it on accident? I saw a number that had Damon hitting better in the #1 spot against righties or lefties, but maybe it was just for the year instead of career.

Sam18
01-09-06, 07:51 PM
Maybe I flip flopped it on accident? I saw a number that had Damon hitting better in the #1 spot against righties or lefties, but maybe it was just for the year instead of career.

Damon also hits better than DJ with RISP so it makes all the sense in the world for Jeter leadingoff with JD batting second.

ryanthe13th
01-09-06, 07:53 PM
Damon also hits better than DJ with RISP so it makes all the sense in the world for Jeter leadingoff with JD batting second.

I'm in favor of Jeter keeping his leadoff spot, but unfortunately that isn't going to happen. For some reason the sports media and a few fans have forgotten who our leadoff hitter is in the midst of all this "Signing Damon gives the Yankees a legitimate lead off hitter" non-sense.

Sam18
01-09-06, 09:46 PM
I'm in favor of Jeter keeping his leadoff spot, but unfortunately that isn't going to happen. For some reason the sports media and a few fans have forgotten who our leadoff hitter is in the midst of all this "Signing Damon gives the Yankees a legitimate lead off hitter" non-sense.

I agree on all points.

NewEraYanks2527
01-10-06, 01:43 PM
Jeter batting 1st vs Lefties
Damon batting 1st vs Righties.


Do it. How did this thread turn into a who should bat leadoff thread?

NelsonMuntz
01-10-06, 02:08 PM
How did this thread turn into a who should bat leadoff thread?
Sooner or later every thread eventually becomes a discussion of one of the following items:

1) Does Melky have a future with the Yankees?
2) I wish we still had Pettitte and we shouldn't have treated him with disrespect vs. Pettitte was overrated and he chose to leave on his own
3) Carlos Beltran
4) What went wrong with Javiar Vazquez?
5) Mel & Joe suck
6) Jeter moving to CF
7) Howard Stern vs. Opie and Anthony
8) And most recently, Jeter vs. Damon leading off

Davios
01-10-06, 02:10 PM
Sooner or later every thread eventually becomes a discussion of one of the following items:

1) Does Melky have a future with the Yankees?
2) I wish we still had Pettitte and we shouldn't have treated him with disrespect vs. Pettitte was overrated and he chose to leave on his own
3) Carlos Beltran
4) What went wrong with Javiar Vazquez?
5) Mel & Joe suck
6) Jeter moving to CF
7) Howard Stern vs. Opie and Anthony
8) And most recently, Jeter vs. Damon leading off


Wish I saw more of those Stern vs. O&A discussions, I'd love to be a part of those.........

Oh and your forgot #9, Why the hell don't we trade for Jason Michaels.

NelsonMuntz
01-10-06, 02:58 PM
Wish I saw more of those Stern vs. O&A discussions, I'd love to be a part of those.........

For starters...

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=92314
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=91444
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=91217&highlight=Sirius
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=78588&highlight=Sirius
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=78303&highlight=Sirius
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=74394&highlight=Sirius
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=90922&highlight=Satellite
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=84045&highlight=Satellite
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=76947&highlight=Satellite
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=71366&highlight=Satellite

Knock yourself out.

ShaneTravis
01-10-06, 03:41 PM
Sooner or later every thread eventually becomes a discussion of one of the following items:

1) Does Melky have a future with the Yankees?
2) I wish we still had Pettitte and we shouldn't have treated him with disrespect vs. Pettitte was overrated and he chose to leave on his own
3) Carlos Beltran
4) What went wrong with Javiar Vazquez?
5) Mel & Joe suck
6) Jeter moving to CF
7) Howard Stern vs. Opie and Anthony
8) And most recently, Jeter vs. Damon leading off

also the great Soriano debate.

NewEraYanks2527
01-10-06, 06:20 PM
Sooner or later every thread eventually becomes a discussion of one of the following items:

1) Does Melky have a future with the Yankees?
2) I wish we still had Pettitte and we shouldn't have treated him with disrespect vs. Pettitte was overrated and he chose to leave on his own
3) Carlos Beltran
4) What went wrong with Javiar Vazquez?
5) Mel & Joe suck
6) Jeter moving to CF
7) Howard Stern vs. Opie and Anthony
8) And most recently, Jeter vs. Damon leading off
The sad thing is you are right and it really is pathetic that people really can't stay on topic. I come on here and see the Pavano thread has gotten updates and I'm thinking "Maybe someone heard something or has an original idea" and I look in it to find Jeter Vs Damon leading off crap. Seriously people can we stay on topics and stick with relevence, it really is a waste of time and effort to turn almost everythread into those very accuratley mentioned by Nelson Muntz above, (also throwing in the Soriano debate).

justinvarnes
01-10-06, 06:35 PM
I think Jeter is overrated defensively. He's below average at best.

ShaneTravis
01-11-06, 09:24 AM
From todays Phildelphia Inquirer
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/13596113.htm


"The one area that we've been trying to focus on... is our pitching," Gillick said. "And that's the area we haven't improved, both the front end and the back end."


"Gillick reiterated yesterday that the most likely route for obtaining a quality starter would come via a trade. Rightfielder Bobby Abreu is considered the obvious candidate."

Philly continues to look for a starter or relievers. How can we not match up?

We have excess at both ends. Pavano for Bobby straight up? Not going to happen. A combination of Henn,Proctor,Wright,Pavano,Sturtz ?

They currently have no one to set-up Gordon--They lost Wagner,Urbina.

Starters--Jon Lieber, Brett Myers, Cory Lidle, Ryan Franklin,and Ryan Madson.

Their staff does not instill much confidence.

BJG
01-11-06, 09:29 AM
From todays Phildelphia Inquirer
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/13596113.htm



Philly continues to look for a starter or relievers. How can we not match up?

We have excess at both ends. Pavano for Bobby straight up? Not going to happen. A combination of Henn,Proctor,Wright,Pavano,Sturtz ?

They currently have no one to set-up Gordon--They lost Wagner,Urbina.

Starters--Jon Lieber, Brett Myers, Cory Lidle, Ryan Franklin,and Ryan Madson.

Their staff does not instill much confidence.

Because none of our excess is all that good and there are better pitchers on the market?

MTYankee23
01-11-06, 09:34 AM
Because none of our excess is all that good and there are better pitchers on the market?

Are there?

BJG
01-11-06, 09:36 AM
Are there?

I'd take Clement or Arroyo over Pavano.

ShaneTravis
01-11-06, 09:37 AM
Because none of our excess is all that good and there are better pitchers on the market?

I have been saying the same thing for the last month. Yet, Philly has found no takers, none for pitching.

The only rumors (emphasis on rumor) is they were going to trade for Miggy using Abreu and then spinning him off to Boston, the other was trying to find a match for Prior.


And a trade of Pavano,Sturtz and Henn is a very fair deal for Philly.

shutout
01-11-06, 09:40 AM
What about Pavano (it was the intent of this thread to talk about Pavano I suppose)? Has anyone heard news or speculation about him getting traded or not?

I think Pavano should be granted a 2nd chance. He's got quite a lot of talent. He won't be our #1 starter (ever) but he's good enough for a #2 - #4 once he gets to the level he should be able to play on.

38Special
01-11-06, 09:41 AM
I'd take Clement or Arroyo over Pavano.
I agree about Clement but not Arroyo

ShaneTravis
01-11-06, 09:46 AM
What about Pavano
(it was the intent of this thread to talk about Pavano I suppose)? Has anyone heard news or speculation about him getting traded or not?

I think Pavano should be granted a 2nd chance. He's got quite a lot of talent. He won't be our #1 starter (ever) but he's good enough for a #2 - #4 once he gets to the level he should be able to play on.

The name of the thread is "Pavano...bears watching for a trade".

There are some of us that think Pavano's greatest talent on the Yanks is his trade value. Hence the Abreu for Pavano......

Good enough for a # 2 starter on the Yanks? Really?

BJG
01-11-06, 09:47 AM
I agree about Clement but not Arroyo

Part of Arroyo's trade value lies in his salary.

noneckwilliams
01-11-06, 09:47 AM
What about Pavano (it was the intent of this thread to talk about Pavano I suppose)? Has anyone heard news or speculation about him getting traded or not?

I think Pavano should be granted a 2nd chance. He's got quite a lot of talent. He won't be our #1 starter (ever) but he's good enough for a #2 - #4 once he gets to the level he should be able to play on.

Pavano makes a lot of money, is coming off an injury-plagued season and even in the best of times is not an All-Star caliber pitcher. His trade value is probably pretty minimal.

That said, if he could manage to stay healthy, deal with whatever issue he may have in pitching in New York and give them 180+ innings he could end up winning 15 games on a team that figures to have a pretty potent offense.

MTYankee23
01-11-06, 10:05 AM
I'd take Clement or Arroyo over Pavano.

Either is an option, but if the Sox and Phillies don't have a match, that doesn't help them.

BJG
01-11-06, 10:24 AM
Either is an option, but if the Sox and Phillies don't have a match, that doesn't help them.

The Sox have shown interest in Abreu. Both Clement and Arroyo seem to be preferred in the marketplace to Pavano. I'd still say that that there is a better chance there of a match than there is when the best you can offer is Pavano, Sturtze, and Henn.

Mattpat11
01-11-06, 03:55 PM
What about Pavano (it was the intent of this thread to talk about Pavano I suppose)? Has anyone heard news or speculation about him getting traded or not?

I think Pavano should be granted a 2nd chance. He's got quite a lot of talent. He won't be our #1 starter (ever) but he's good enough for a #2 - #4 once he gets to the level he should be able to play on.He's a career average pitcher that's always hurt.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
01-12-06, 05:59 PM
"The new Phillies general manager said at a media luncheon here yesterday that a deal that would have brought the Phillies a No. 1 or No. 2 starter fell through yesterday morning because the other team backed out.

"They fell out," Gillick said. "Could the deal eventually happen? I'm not optimistic."

Gillick, as has been his policy, didn't name the other team or the players involved, but one of the piitchers they've pursued hardest this offseason has been Orioles lefthander Erik Bedard.

Essentially every deal for a top pitcher the Phillies have been involved with has included rightfielder Bobby Abreu."

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/13606464.htm

OK, so, the Philly papers speculated on Bedard. Other #1's out there who are available I guess would be Zito or Contreras. Interesting that Gillick described the pitcher as a #1 or #2...is Pavano in any way, shape, or form a #2 pitcher in some eyes (considering he had an 18 win season under his belt, statistically yes, I guess)? And if it could have been the Yankees, would they back out of it for money or if other players were asked about (Hughes or Duncan for instance).

BJG
01-12-06, 06:14 PM
Manny/Clement for Abreu/Michaels is another possibility.

JeffWeaverFan
01-12-06, 06:18 PM
Manny/Clement for Abreu/Michaels is another possibility.
I don't think the Red Sox would have backed out of that deal.

BJG
01-12-06, 06:20 PM
I don't think the Red Sox would have backed out of that deal.

Just a rumor that's out there. Philly asked for more cash, says the rumor.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
01-12-06, 06:28 PM
Manny/Clement for Abreu/Michaels is another possibility.

Matt Clement is a #1 or #2? If last years free agent bidding is any indication of what teams thought of their value, I don't recall a Mattopalooza tour. Seems unlikely to be Boston.

ring403
01-18-06, 07:42 AM
http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-pavano0113.artjan18,0,4265811.story?coll=hc-headlines-baseball
In November, when it was being reported that Pavano wanted to be traded, he called Cashman to say that he wanted to stay.

"I think Carl needed to say that more than I needed to hear it," Cashman said.

Publicly, Pavano stayed quiet.

"I didn't feel I had to defend myself for something I never said," he said.

As the offseason has worn on, Pavano's name has continued to surface in trade rumors. With center field filled by Johnny Damon and after adding four relief pitchers, the Yankees aren't looking for anything in particular. Cashman said he has no plans to move Pavano, but wouldn't rule it out.

"As with any player who doesn't have a no-trade clause, I would listen if someone came up with something that might make us better," Cashman said. "That's the nature of the business."

drjeckyl
01-18-06, 07:48 AM
This article (http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-pavano0113.artjan18,0,4265811.story?coll=hc-headlines-baseball) on Pavano is interesting as it describes some of the problems he had last year.

This is the first time I've seen this mentioned.

Although nothing was said about it at the time, Pavano's '05 season was doomed in spring training, when he strained his back. He altered his pitching motion to compensate and hurt his shoulder.


Said Pavano: "I really have no control over [trade rumors]. But I know I can do the job for the Yankees, I know I can help this team, and I'm confident that they feel the same way I feel."

Sounds like Carl had to make some adjustments last season and is looking forward to contributing this season and being a Yankee. I'm glad to read him say it considering all the noise coming from unhappy players this off season demanding to be traded, dictating where they will play, etc...

Mattpat11
01-18-06, 07:55 AM
This article (http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-pavano0113.artjan18,0,4265811.story?coll=hc-headlines-baseball) on Pavano is interesting as it describes some of the problems he had last year.

This is the first time I've seen this mentioned.

There's probably a reason for that.

I kind of think its funny that the strained back turned Pavano almost exactly back into the pitcher he was before 04.

utopiapkwy
01-18-06, 08:06 AM
There's probably a reason for that.

I kind of think its funny that the strained back turned Pavano almost exactly back into the pitcher he was before 04.


Fair enough. When you are feeling less than perfect physically, it is very difficult to make a change like going to NY. Physically healthy and mentally more prepared, I think there is an above average chance that he wins 15 games. Plus he and Sturtze can talk each other off the ledge in their building.

JeffWeaverFan
01-18-06, 03:32 PM
Fair enough. When you are feeling less than perfect physically, it is very difficult to make a change like going to NY. Physically healthy and mentally more prepared, I think there is an above average chance that he wins 15 games.
Well he better learn to pitch in NY when he's less than perfect physically, because 1. Pitchers are rarely to never "perfect physically" and 2. Given Pavano's track record, he's always hurt. The problem with your second sentence is that there is a below average chance he will be physically healthy.

Mark19
01-18-06, 04:34 PM
So Carl strained his back and swtiched up his mechanics to compensate. This then resulted in him hurting his shoulder. One would think that some member of the coaching staff would have noticed if he changed his mechanics. Then again, Mel didn't seem to be noticing much of anything outside of his pitch clicker.

Tifoso
01-18-06, 05:14 PM
So Carl strained his back and swtiched up his mechanics to compensate. This then resulted in him hurting his shoulder. One would think that some member of the coaching staff would have noticed if he changed his mechanics. Then again, Mel didn't seem to be noticing much of anything outside of his pitch clicker.


Wow--you just asked and answered your own question. :D

BronxByTheBay
01-18-06, 05:24 PM
http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-pavano0113.artjan18,0,4265811.story?coll=hc-headlines-baseball

Well, there goes the credibility of a few posters 'round these parts.

Here's to Carl and here's to a hopefully great season from him. :gulp:

flymick24
01-18-06, 05:47 PM
Well, there goes the credibility of a few posters 'round these parts.

Here's to Carl and here's to a hopefully great season from him. :gulp:

what exactly did he say that undermines posters' credibility?

i'm not a pavano hater by any means, but he's not going to come right out and say in an interview that he hated being in NY and would have liked to have been traded. it's called damage control.

as for his back problems, i obviously can't comment because i don't know the extent of his injury, but let's hope he's 100% for the start of the season. let's also hope that his shoulder holds up for 180-200 IP.

one thing that i can say though (and we can all agree with) is that he's pretty injury-prone.

BronxByTheBay
01-18-06, 06:09 PM
what exactly did he say that undermines posters' credibility?



There were a few who insisted that he

1.) faked his injury

2.) Wanted out of NY

They were proven wrong on both counts (their sniff test for the latter was for him to insist he wanted to stay here - he did that.)

Being wrong about Pavano isn't the credibility-shaker, it's the lack of sack to come forward and admit you were wrong.

JeffWeaverFan
01-18-06, 06:32 PM
There were a few who insisted that he

1.) faked his injury

2.) Wanted out of NY

They were proven wrong on both counts (their sniff test for the latter was for him to insist he wanted to stay here - he did that.)

Being wrong about Pavano isn't the credibility-shaker, it's the lack of sack to come forward and admit you were wrong.
It's not that he faked the injury, it's that he could have pitched through it - at least towards the end of the season after being out for 6 months with an injury in which he didn't need surgery. And, I think most Yankee fans thought that that was quite questionable. Either way, that's over and done with.

Yeah, the evidence is that he hated it here as 2 former teamates, including his best friend said so. And, you have this habit of not quoting people's entire posts.



i'm not a pavano hater by any means, but he's not going to come right out and say in an interview that he hated being in NY and would have liked to have been traded. it's called damage control.

But hey, it looks like I could be wrong here as he has come out and said that he did not say he wanted out of NY. Whether or not he's telling the truth, I think we will learn in the next couple months. Either way, if he is on the team, I'll be rooting for him to have a tremendous season and being proven more wrong about how I think he will do this season.

BronxByTheBay
01-18-06, 06:39 PM
It's not that he faked the injury, it's that he could have pitched through it - at least towards the end of the season after being out for 6 months with an injury in which he didn't need surgery. And, I think most Yankee fans thought that that was quite questionable. Either way, that's over and done with.

No, "most" Yankee fans didn't think it was questionable. YOU thought it was questionable. First you questioned the guy's injury, than you questioned his heart. You were reemed by a mod on the first, so you retreated to the second. Now we know Pavano was in fact injured for most of the season. You're damn right it's over and done with.



Yeah, the evidence is that he hated it here as 2 former teamates, including his best friend said so. And, you have this habit of not quoting people's entire posts.


Uh huh. Show even half a sack and admit you were wrong.

27IsNext
01-18-06, 06:41 PM
Uh huh. Show even half a sack and admit you were wrong.

I'm pretty sure he did that at the end of his post.

BronxByTheBay
01-18-06, 06:45 PM
I'm pretty sure he did that at the end of his post.

It's funny that you have to state you're "pretty sure" considering the 300 qualifiers attached with his "I could be wrong".

38Special
01-18-06, 07:14 PM
No, "most" Yankee fans didn't think it was questionable. YOU thought it was questionable. First you questioned the guy's injury, than you questioned his heart. You were reemed by a mod on the first, so you retreated to the second. Now we know Pavano was in fact injured for most of the season. You're damn right it's over and done with.

Thank you.

JeffWeaverFan
01-18-06, 08:49 PM
No, "most" Yankee fans didn't think it was questionable. YOU thought it was questionable. First you questioned the guy's injury, than you questioned his heart. You were reemed by a mod on the first, so you retreated to the second. Now we know Pavano was in fact injured for most of the season. You're damn right it's over and done with.
I still question it. And, a lot of Yankee fans have also questioned it. We know he was in fact injured like we knew he was in fact injured last year. What has come out that was different from what we knew last year during the injury? Seriously, maybe there has been something that has come out that I missed and you know about. I don't know.




Uh huh. Show even half a sack and admit you were wrong.

I did. Out of curiosity, do you just not read peoples whole post or do you have a bad memory? Or do you just lack reading comprehension skills?


But hey, it looks like I could be wrong here as he has come out and said that he did not say he wanted out of NY.

JeffWeaverFan
01-18-06, 08:51 PM
It's funny that you have to state you're "pretty sure" considering the 300 qualifiers attached with his "I could be wrong".
Yes. I could be worng. If he is traded later in the offseason, it will look like I wasn't wrong. As of now, I'm most likely wrong. As I said. But, as flymick24 said:


i'm not a pavano hater by any means, but he's not going to come right out and say in an interview that he hated being in NY and would have liked to have been traded. it's called damage control.

BronxByTheBay
01-18-06, 09:05 PM
Thank you.

You, sir, are quite welcome. ;)

JeffWeaverFan
01-18-06, 09:30 PM
You, sir, are quite welcome. ;)
You have yet to answer my question. My guess is you just don't read the whole posts, as I think your reading comprehension is probably pretty good.

gEO3b4
01-18-06, 10:07 PM
I would like to keep Pavano, but if we could get a few good prospects or something I definately wouldnt be completely opposed to pulling the trigger on a deal. Especially with the surplus of pitching we have.

But for instance, if we could send him to Detroit for Brandon Inge and maye one or 2 of their top 15 or top 10 prospects, I would do that in a second.

flymick24
01-18-06, 10:38 PM
I would like to keep Pavano, but if we could get a few good prospects or something I definately wouldnt be completely opposed to pulling the trigger on a deal. Especially with the surplus of pitching we have.

But for instance, if we could send him to Detroit for Brandon Inge and maye one or 2 of their top 15 or top 10 prospects, I would do that in a second.

he has to prove that he's healthy first in spring training, and even then, he won't garner anything close to a "top 15 or top 10 prospect."

Dave Visbeck
01-19-06, 05:12 AM
I'll believe it when I see him pitch 5 straight starts. He had the physical problems in the minors at times even before the Pedro Martinez deal.
http://xs12.xs.to/pics/05035/icon_old.gif

JeffWeaverFan
01-19-06, 09:46 AM
I'll believe it when I see him pitch 5 straight starts. He had the physical problems in the minors at times even before the Pedro Martinez deal.
http://xs12.xs.to/pics/05035/icon_old.gif
I hate agreeing with a Red Sox fan but he's right...

NewEraYanks2527
01-19-06, 10:10 AM
I'll believe it when I see him pitch 5 straight starts. He had the physical problems in the minors at times even before the Pedro Martinez deal.
http://xs12.xs.to/pics/05035/icon_old.gif
DAMNT I STILL CANT GET ALL THOSE SMILEY FACES!

Cold Shad
01-19-06, 10:24 AM
I'll believe it when I see him pitch 5 straight starts. He had the physical problems in the minors at times even before the Pedro Martinez deal.
http://xs12.xs.to/pics/05035/icon_old.gif
He and Brian Rose Were the two top Sox prospects At that time. Rose was considered healthier at the time.

freebubba
01-19-06, 01:12 PM
Why did it iratate you to no end? Jeter has had a better OBP than Johnny 9 of the last 10 years. The job of the leadoff hitter is to get on base (which Jeter does better) and to put yourself in the best position to score. Damon is a batter base stealer, but few players run the bases like Jeter.

Don't present your opinion, give two general stats, and then say that no other opinion matters.

Sorry, did not mean to summarily dismiss other's opinions. The fact that Jeter was hitting leadoff did not bother me as much as why he had to bat leadoff.

Question: Have we won a WS with Jeter hitting leadoff? Answer: NO. Was he the most capable leadoff hitter the Yankees had? Certainly. Was Derek Jeter the best # 2 hitter in the game? Yes. Have we been trying to fill the leadoff role with other players? Yes (Lofton and Womack were both signed with that in mind). In just did not work out. Jeter has been hitting leadoff out of necessity, not because that fact in and of itself gives the Yankees a better lineup. With a man who has proven to be as equally effective in the leadoff spot, I think the best lineup is Jeter batting second. I just like him there better, sorry, can't help it.

JeffWeaverFan
01-20-06, 01:25 PM
Question: Have we won a WS with Jeter hitting leadoff? Answer: NO. Was he the most capable leadoff hitter the Yankees had? Certainly. Was Derek Jeter the best # 2 hitter in the game? Yes. Have we been trying to fill the leadoff role with other players? Yes (Lofton and Womack were both signed with that in mind). In just did not work out. Jeter has been hitting leadoff out of necessity, not because that fact in and of itself gives the Yankees a better lineup. With a man who has proven to be as equally effective in the leadoff spot, I think the best lineup is Jeter batting second. I just like him there better, sorry, can't help it.
Your wrong. Jeter lead off in plenty of games, including 3 in the WS, in 1996. And, even if we hadn't, does that really matter? Is the reason we haven't won a WS in 5 years because Jeter has been leading off? That has been the problem? I find that hard to believe.

GS, who has shown how good of a GM he is, signed Kenny Lofton with that in mind and Torre realized that leading off with Lofton was not a good decision. Womack was not signed to bat leadoff at all. That's just false.

The fact is that Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Damon. And, in fact, Damon is probably better suited for the #2 spot than Jeter. Jeter strikes out more while Damon puts the ball in play more - something that is better for the #2 hitter. Jeter grounds into a ton more DP's than Damon. Jeter saw more pitches than Damon did last year. Jeter gets on base more than Damon. Damon is a lefty and can use the whole created by having a guy on 1st base better than Jeter. And I know that Jeter goes the other way with the best of them, but Damon still goes to the right side more than Jeter. I just can't think of a good argument as to why Jeter should bat 2nd and Damon should leadoff.

Jace
01-20-06, 11:21 PM
I just can't think of a good argument as to why Jeter should bat 2nd and Damon should leadoff.

Jeter has slightly more power (.461 career slugging to Damon's .431). Thats the only thing I can think of. I would rather Jeter leadoff, but if they are going to be hitting 1-2 no matter what, it probably won't make a big difference.

JeffWeaverFan
01-20-06, 11:23 PM
I would rather Jeter leadoff, but if they are going to be hitting 1-2 no matter what, it probably won't make a big difference.
Definitely agree there. I just haven't found a legit argument as to why the team is better with Damon leading off. I think the team is slightly better with Jeter leading off and maybe that would equal another win.

Yankeeah
01-20-06, 11:38 PM
Definitely agree there. I just haven't found a legit argument as to why the team is better with Damon leading off. I think the team is slightly better with Jeter leading off and maybe that would equal another win.

I wrote something up about it, heres what I came up with.


*Over the last three years Jeter has a better average, OBP, SLG, and OPS than Johnny.

*Over the same time frame, leading off an inning, Jeter has a better average, by 30 points, a better OBP, a better SLG%, by 109 points, and a better OPS, by 144 points.

*Stealing bases, the last 3 season, Jeter has succeeded 48 times, while being caught 14, Johnny succeeding 67 times, and getting caught 15. Johnny has a slight edge there, as he attempts more, but the percentages are both good. He might be a little faster than Jeter, but Derek is one of the smartest base runners in the game.

* The only clear advantage Johnny has is that he sees more pitches per at-bat, he is a very patient hitter. While in 2005, Jeter saw more, Johnny typically sees more.

27IsNext
01-21-06, 12:39 AM
It's funny that you have to state you're "pretty sure" considering the 300 qualifiers attached with his "I could be wrong".

Look, I'm not going to outrightly say that he doesn't like it in NY. Cases can be made for both sides. He stayed in dugout all season even after the injury. Pictures have been posted on here of him looking like he was having a good time off the field. However, two former teammates have said he was unhappy here (Quantrill and Burnett). What reason could they have possibly had for lying? Perhaps it's possible that he may not have thought NY is all it's cracked up to be, but that he still enjoys it somewhat, and he's too loyal to the team that pays him $10 million a year to request a trade? Not everything is in pure black and white.

As for his injury, I'm not a specialist in this area, but I do find it curious that he spent the rest of the season on the DL for something that didn't require surgery. That being said, it's possible that he wanted to do everything he could to be 100 percent next season and the two seasons after that. I don't know, and I won't jump to conclusions either way.

I hope Pavano bounces back and is a good number 2 starter, especially since that is what we're paying him to be. I've never booed a player for a team I root for in my life, and he has my 100 percent support as long as he's a Yankee. Will he earn his money's worth? Only time will tell.

Jace
01-21-06, 12:18 PM
I wrote something up about it, heres what I came up with.


*Over the last three years Jeter has a better average, OBP, SLG, and OPS than Johnny.


You are getting these numbers by aggregate over the 3 years I think, because Damon had a better year avg, obp, slugging, and ops wise in 2004.

JeffWeaverFan
01-21-06, 06:24 PM
You are getting these numbers by aggregate over the 3 years I think, because Damon had a better year avg, obp, slugging, and ops wise in 2004.
Yeah, he must have. That was Damon's career year and the year that Jeter had that horrible slump though.

BronxByTheBay
01-21-06, 07:05 PM
Look, I'm not going to outrightly say that he doesn't like it in NY. Cases can be made for both sides. He stayed in dugout all season even after the injury. Pictures have been posted on here of him looking like he was having a good time off the field. However, two former teammates have said he was unhappy here (Quantrill and Burnett). What reason could they have possibly had for lying? Perhaps it's possible that he may not have thought NY is all it's cracked up to be, but that he still enjoys it somewhat, and he's too loyal to the team that pays him $10 million a year to request a trade? Not everything is in pure black and white.

If I recall correctly, all they said was that the atmosphere was more "professional" than he was used to. And considering that one of them (Quantrill) would have plenty of reason to be bitter towards the organization, I would tend to take second-hand accounts with a grain of salt.

You're right, not everything is in black and white. And what myself and a great many others have said is that the bit about Pavano hating it here isn't based on enough reliable sources to suggest it IS black and white. You have one poster in particular who has stated with absolute certainty that Pavano hates it here - he's the only guy who's been speaking in absolutes due to some weird vendetta against the guy (maybe he resents him for having low K rates or something). Everyone else has been fairly objective in evaluating Pavano's mindset, which is to say none of us have a clue so we're just guessing anyway. Based on what's out there, it's fair to say Pavano wants to say. Why is that fair? Because from what we do know, not through "sources close to Pavano's thinking", we know from the GM of the team who has no reason to lie about Pavano stating he wants to pitch here. He could have said a million other things, like "we're confident Carl will contribute here" or "Carl hasn't requested a trade" or some other nuanced bullsh*t. He said flat out that Pavano said he wanted to stay.



As for his injury, I'm not a specialist in this area, but I do find it curious that he spent the rest of the season on the DL for something that didn't require surgery. That being said, it's possible that he wanted to do everything he could to be 100 percent next season and the two seasons after that. I don't know, and I won't jump to conclusions either way.


Which marks you as a reasonable, rational fan. Like most of us. We don't know, so to make any diagnosis and assume it's the truth is the height of ignorance. I don't find any of it curious, incidentally. The guy has a history of being injured - I'd be cautious with a $40 million investment myself.

JeffWeaverFan
01-21-06, 10:10 PM
If I recall correctly, all they said was that the atmosphere was more "professional" than he was used to. And considering that one of them (Quantrill) would have plenty of reason to be bitter towards the organization, I would tend to take second-hand accounts with a grain of salt.
Quantrill had no reason to say that Pavano wanted out. He was asked by a reporter from Pavano's old team about Pavano, and Quantrill said what he did. Even if Quantrill was upset with the organization, and we don't know if he was, that has nothing to do with Pavano. And your wrong about what they said. AJ Burnett said that Pavano was "miserable," and Quantrill said that Pavano "he found it a bit of a cold place."



You're right, not everything is in black and white. And what myself and a great many others have said is that the bit about Pavano hating it here isn't based on enough reliable sources to suggest it IS black and white. You have one poster in particular who has stated with absolute certainty that Pavano hates it here - he's the only guy who's been speaking in absolutes due to some weird vendetta against the guy (maybe he resents him for having low K rates or something). Everyone else has been fairly objective in evaluating Pavano's mindset, which is to say none of us have a clue so we're just guessing anyway. Based on what's out there, it's fair to say Pavano wants to say. Why is that fair? Because from what we do know, not through "sources close to Pavano's thinking", we know from the GM of the team who has no reason to lie about Pavano stating he wants to pitch here. He could have said a million other things, like "we're confident Carl will contribute here" or "Carl hasn't requested a trade" or some other nuanced bullsh*t. He said flat out that Pavano said he wanted to stay.
There's been a few more than just me to be completely honest, but I agree I am most likely the main guy. I have said that given the evidence it seems pretty obvious that Pavano doesn't like it here. What is enough reliable sources for you out of curiosity? We've gotten his former teammate and we've got his best friend saying he hates it here. Plus we've gotten a few other newspapers that have come out with reports (it's not like they just made it up). Even if you think the newspaper writers are lying, we have 2 named sources, both of which know Pavano quite well.

I do agree that Cashman coming out is a good sign, which is why I said I was probably wrong about Pavano, but he does have reason to lie if he is going to attempt to trade him. You say that Pavano wants to be here and suddenly other teams don't have as much leverage. If you keep it out there that Pavano hates it here, other teams have leverage. It would be smart for Cashman to get it out there that we have no reason to trade him unless it makes the team better and we are very happy with having him back here. Not saying that's what he's doing, especially since Pavano said he wants to be here, but it is something to consider.



Which marks you as a reasonable, rational fan. Like most of us. We don't know, so to make any diagnosis and assume it's the truth is the height of ignorance. I don't find any of it curious, incidentally. The guy has a history of being injured - I'd be cautious with a $40 million investment myself.
For the record, I have not made a diagnosis. I've said what I believe. Not the truth, just what I think. Which is what many people have done. In fact, tons of Yankee fans have been curious about that injury, because it is curious. Maybe I've been just more vocal about my curiosity than others.

EDIT: Just one other thing. I could care less about Pavano's low K rate or performance as a pitcher with the Yankees. That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said about Pavano concerning how I feel about his injury or how I have felt about him wanting to be on this team.

BronxByTheBay
01-22-06, 10:40 AM
For the record, I have not made a diagnosis. I've said what I believe. Not the truth, just what I think. Which is what many people have done. In fact, tons of Yankee fans have been curious about that injury, because it is curious. Maybe I've been just more vocal about my curiosity than others.


Yes, you've been quite "curious", if "curious" = "having a vendetta":


It's not an unsubstantiated rumor. It's something I believe. Maybe if he proved otherwise I wouldn't call him a wimp.


Torre is defending his player. They asked Pavano if he could go on that Tuesday game against the Rangers and he said no. It was his decision.

The guy is a wimp, for lack of a better and more explicit word.


More evidence that he's a wimp. I used to only think that, now I dislike him.


I'd rather Pavano wasn't such a wimp. A freaking 2nd rehab start when our rotation is this much of a mess? You've gotta be kidding me.


If I answered this question exactly how I felt about it, I would break community standards. I will merely say that he is a huge wimp and leave it at that. I believe that is being nice about it.

I'm not even going to bother going round and round with you about this again. You have zero credibility on the subject, and no matter how often you try to "nuance" your answers, your OBP still won't get any higher where this issue is concerned.

JeffWeaverFan
01-22-06, 04:43 PM
Yes, you've been quite "curious", if "curious" = "having a vendetta":

I'm not even going to bother going round and round with you about this again. You have zero credibility on the subject, and no matter how often you try to "nuance" your answers, your OBP still won't get any higher where this issue is concerned.
I don't have a vendetta against the guy. I believed he was a wimp at that time. Do I know he was a wimp? No. I don't know if you were just trying to prove me right here. As I said, I didn't make a diagnosis on him, I have merely stated what I thought of the guy at that time. And, I still think he could have pitched through what he did. He continually had rehab starts instead of trying to pitch for the Yankees when we desperately needed him. Do I know that? Absolutely not. Did I think that? Yes.

38Special
01-22-06, 04:45 PM
He's a total wimp! After years of injuries, he should have pitched through the tendonitis and risked ruining his shoulder. What a fem.

JeffWeaverFan
01-22-06, 06:02 PM
He's a total wimp! After years of injuries, he should have pitched through the tendonitis and risked ruining his shoulder. What a fem.
We obviously disagree. You think he couldn't have pitched through it and I think he could. If he's never going to pitch through any pain, then he isn't going to pitch much for the Yankees as it seems he's always injured.

Either way, if he's with this team next year, I'll root like hell that I'm completely wrong about Pavano.

BronxByTheBay
01-22-06, 10:12 PM
He's a total wimp! After years of injuries, he should have pitched through the tendonitis and risked ruining his shoulder. What a fem.

Every tough guy with a keyboard knows that.

JeffWeaverFan
01-22-06, 11:02 PM
Every tough guy with a keyboard knows that.
Since my keyboard is my only tool, I can't do much else... I'd love to be able to not have to use my keyboard though.