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gold23
12-10-05, 01:14 PM
Roger, Bernie, Cairo...it just never freaking ends with the same old crap.


Cairo? That will be a good move. He can contribute as a utility infielder. The others? Don't want Clemens, since I believe he will break down as he always does down the stretch. Anyone closely watch him in September and October? He's worn out. Bernie we've covered to death, and I agree with everyone on this board that I wouldn't sign him for the minimum.

38Special
12-10-05, 01:15 PM
If Cashman pulls more than Reed out of Seattle for Pavano, I would be amazed and thrilled. As of now, I'll settle for that deal straight up, and the signing of Washburn. Those two moves would absolutely make this off-season a success. Solve the CF problem with a tremendous defender who has long been considered a huge prospect on the offensive side, and improve the rotation with the upgrade of Washburn over Pavano. I like Pavano....but Jeremy Reed is an extremely talented young player.
We already have 7 starters, 6 if you put Small in the pen. We're obviously all okay with RJ-Moose-Wang-Chacon, and would like Wright to be gone, but theres no way we're going to get rid of him. He's going to have to pitch well, and get some trade value, or force us to use someone from within the organization/small. We can't afford to let his 11 million dollar corpse sit in the pen, especially when you consider that Washburn's peripherals dont really speak well to his future success (and his injury problems the last few months of the season)

hlrjr
12-10-05, 01:20 PM
Jeremy Reed for Pavano would be an absolute coup for the Yanks. Young, great defender and offensive potential. Please let this trade happen!!

montrealer
12-10-05, 01:41 PM
Why would anybody in their right mind trade for a 11 million dollar "Puss Arm" pitcher like Pavano?

dabomb2045
12-10-05, 02:34 PM
We already have 7 starters, 6 if you put Small in the pen. We're obviously all okay with RJ-Moose-Wang-Chacon, and would like Wright to be gone, but theres no way we're going to get rid of him. He's going to have to pitch well, and get some trade value, or force us to use someone from within the organization/small. We can't afford to let his 11 million dollar corpse sit in the pen, especially when you consider that Washburn's peripherals dont really speak well to his future success (and his injury problems the last few months of the season)


I think its important to have depth in terms of our starters. We're gonna get at least one guaranteed DL trip for Moose, RJ is always a risk due to his age, and Wright is injury prone as well.

Im not saying lets overpay for Washburn...but I'd feel alot better about things if we had more depth

AJW
12-10-05, 03:16 PM
Reed and Putz from Seattle for Pavano. Bob Klapisch reported on SportsCenter the M's have offered it and Cashman is thinking about it

noneckwilliams
12-10-05, 03:18 PM
Cairo? That will be a good move. He can contribute as a utility infielder. The others? Don't want Clemens, since I believe he will break down as he always does down the stretch. Anyone closely watch him in September and October? He's worn out. Bernie we've covered to death, and I agree with everyone on this board that I wouldn't sign him for the minimum.

I'd at least like to see Cash wait a few weeks to see what might be out there in terms of bench help. I doubt anyone's ringing the phone off the hook to land Miggy. Cash has total free reign to get the bench he wants and it seems sometimes he just goes for the easiest solution.

As far as Clemens goes it's probably more of a media wish than a real possibility (althought you know some Tampa folks would love it) but I just can't take it anymore. The "Clemens back to the Yankees" stories crop up seemingly every 6 months. It's hard for me to even see why anyone would find Roger back in Pinstripes to be this big exciting thing. At this point it's just old and tired and boring.

ICEBERG18
12-10-05, 03:19 PM
Reed and Putz from Seattle for Pavano. Bob Klapisch reported on SportsCenter the M's have offered it and Cashman is thinking about it

I don't believe that to be true. I think someone made it up on one of those other Yankees boards, because no one else heard this but that one guy. And when have you ever seen Bob Klapish on SportsCenter?

BJG
12-10-05, 03:20 PM
Reed and Putz from Seattle for Pavano. Bob Klapisch reported on SportsCenter the M's have offered it and Cashman is thinking about it

Well, Seattle is already moving, so I'd see if I could get a better pitcher.

Yankeeah
12-10-05, 03:22 PM
Since when has Bobby K been on SportsCenter?
Maybe we could pry Soriano instead of Putz. I giggle everytime I head Kay pronounce his name as Poo-ts.

Yankees13
12-10-05, 03:23 PM
Reed and Putz from Seattle for Pavano. Bob Klapisch reported on SportsCenter the M's have offered it and Cashman is thinking about it
If Cashman doesn't do it, I might move into the anti-Cashman camp, assuming the offer is on the table.

AJW
12-10-05, 03:23 PM
I don't believe that to be true. I think someone made it up on one of those other Yankees boards, No one else heard this but that one guy.And when have you ever seen Bob Klapish on Sportscenter?

I have seen Bob Klapisch on ESPNews and I think SportsCenter as well. Not a lot though.

Yankeeah
12-10-05, 03:27 PM
If Cashman doesn't do it, I might move into the anti-Cashman camp, assuming the offer is on the table.

Which is why its somewhat difficult to believe. Reed wouldn't be a stop gap CFer, he could help us for a lot of years down the road.

Yankees13
12-10-05, 03:28 PM
Which is why its somewhat difficult to believe. Reed wouldn't be a stop gap CFer, he could help us for a lot of years down the road.
Yeah, and since when is Sportscenter on at 3 in the afternoon?

AJW
12-10-05, 03:28 PM
Reed wouldn't be a stop gap CFer, he could help us for a lot of years down the road.

Damn straight.

AJW
12-10-05, 03:29 PM
Yeah, and since when is Sportscenter on at 3 in the afternoon?

I didn't say that.

Yankeeah
12-10-05, 03:32 PM
It could've been on ESPNews, they were about to do a Hot Stove Report, but my report decided to play Madden so I missed it.

Yankees13
12-10-05, 03:35 PM
It could've been on ESPNews, they were about to do a Hot Stove Report, but my report decided to play Madden so I missed it.
Maybe. I hope it's true, and they're just working out the money or something.

ICEBERG18
12-10-05, 03:39 PM
I have seen Bob Klapisch on ESPNews and I think SportsCenter as well. Not a lot though.


Did you see him today? Im guessing no.

ICEBERG18
12-10-05, 03:41 PM
Maybe. I hope it's true, and they're just working out the money or something.


Don't get your hopes up.

38Special
12-10-05, 03:49 PM
Reed and Putz from Seattle for Pavano. Bob Klapisch reported on SportsCenter the M's have offered it and Cashman is thinking about it
Did you see this or are you making it up?

Yankees13
12-10-05, 03:49 PM
Don't get your hopes up.
I'm not. I've done some checking, and this rumor is false. Last Sportscenter was at 11, and no one else has actually seen it with their own eyes...

Davios
12-10-05, 03:54 PM
The rumor was made up by some idiot over on the ESPN boards.

Yankees13
12-10-05, 03:59 PM
The rumor was made up by some idiot over on the ESPN boards.
Oh well

38Special
12-10-05, 04:02 PM
It would be nice if people did a little fact checking on rumors posting here, especially if you're going by word of mouth and not something you actually saw

ICEBERG18
12-10-05, 06:06 PM
"The Mariners and Yankees did not discuss Carl Pavano during the winter meetings, according to one Yankees source. ..."

SOURCE:SEATTLEPI.COM

AJW
12-10-05, 06:48 PM
Did you see this or are you making it up?

I was not making it up. I read it on the Yankee boards over on the Yes Network Website.

http://boards.yesnetwork.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74650

And why would someone over on the Yes Message Boards with over 9,000 post makeup something like this??? He is the originator of the thread. Everyone needs to settle down. I doubt he would post for a gag unless he heard it. I believe the guy.

38Special
12-10-05, 06:55 PM
I was not making it up. I read it on the Yankee boards over on the Yes Network Website.

http://boards.yesnetwork.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74650

And why would someone over on the Yes Message Boards with over 9,000 post makeup something like this??? He is the originator of the thread. Everyone needs to settle down. I doubt he would post this unless he heard it.
Well he didnt because it didnt happen

AJW
12-10-05, 06:56 PM
Well he didnt because it didnt happen

And how do you know this for a fact? Just because you want to?? Or are you saying this poster posted it on the Yes Boards because he saw it on another board? If so, another reason why this would have never happened years ago because of no Internet. I apologize if that was the case.

ring403
12-11-05, 10:45 AM
With the FA pitchers coming off the market (Burnett, Byrd, Millwood to Seattle?), we should soon hear more rumblings about trades involving Pavano.Which is why the Yankees would be smart to hold off on dealing Pavano or any other starter.
Several of the better FA pitchers are Boras clients, which means they'll take their time signing, and be overpaid when they do. There are more teams looking for starting pitching than there are starters. It's definitely a seller's market, and before it's all over the 3 years/$29 million in guaranteed money left on Pavano's contract are going to be very attractive to desperate teams.

mycroft
12-11-05, 11:22 AM
If there is one absolutely true axiom in baseball it is the absolute fact that a team never has enough pitching, especially a team like the Yankees who have an older staff. Pavano is young by comparison and to trade Pavano at this point would be short sighted.

We can live with Crosby in CF hitting out of the 9 hole and wait for a mid season acquisition. This team has plenty of run scoring fire power.

BillBuckner
12-11-05, 11:28 AM
too bad we cant trade Pavano....what a horrible signing
Based on one injury plagued year?

the_coach
12-11-05, 11:28 AM
I would like to give Pavano another year to see if he can bounce back. Wright on the other hand.... :(

BJG
12-11-05, 11:36 AM
If there is one absolutely true axiom in baseball it is the absolute fact that a team never has enough pitching, especially a team like the Yankees who have an older staff. Pavano is young by comparison and to trade Pavano at this point would be short sighted.

We can live with Crosby in CF hitting out of the 9 hole and wait for a mid season acquisition. This team has plenty of run scoring fire power.

Pavano, however, is part of that problem. His inability so stay on the field means that he is basically taking up a roster spot going into the season while being unable to provide that thing you can never have enough of once the season starts. I'd rather have a Jason Johnson type give me 200 innings of slightly below league average innings than Pavano give me exactly the same below average ERA, just for fewer innings, all while I cross my fingers and hope that he feels well enough to do better. As I think I indicated in another thread, that season where he feels well has happened once since 1997. So you don't have to surf:


1997: Shoulder tightness in ST. IP held to 161. Traded to Montreal.
1998: Expected to start season in majors. Shoulder tightness in ST, starts season in extended ST and in AAA on a rehab assigment, starts major league season in late May.
1999: Placed on DL with sore elbow in July. Pitches sparingly the rest of the season.
2000: Placed on DL with elbow tendinitis on June 27. Surgery. Season over.
2001: Post surgical inflamation keeps Pavano on the DL until August.
2002: Still not feeling right, pulled from the rotation and demoted to AAA in June. Traded to the Marlins. Pitched out of the pen for Florida and then was put into the rotation when Burnett got hurt.
2003: Shoulder soreness in ST. Pitches through it and logs 200 94 ERA+ innings.
2004: Felt good all year. Had his one good season.
2005: Makes his last start on June 28 and does not return with shoulder soreness.

I would also again point out that a team cannot live with below replacement level production out of a lineup spot. Bubba is well below replacement level. If nothing else, find a replacement level player in AAA somewhere.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 11:38 AM
Based on one injury plagued year?

nope his injury plagued horrible career save one good season

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 11:41 AM
If there is one absolutely true axiom in baseball it is the absolute fact that a team never has enough pitching, especially a team like the Yankees who have an older staff. Pavano is young by comparison and to trade Pavano at this point would be short sighted.

We can live with Crosby in CF hitting out of the 9 hole and wait for a mid season acquisition. This team has plenty of run scoring fire power.

With Crosby we have 3 potetional black holes which leads to an inconsistant offence. We can survive one black hole but with 3 the hitting will be just like last year. One day we score 15 runs the next we get shutout.

Pavano is not a good pitcher he had one good year and has been horrible in every other year and he has low k rates. He is never going to repeat his 2004 or have an era below 4.30 in the Al East.

the_coach
12-11-05, 11:42 AM
nope his injury plagued horrible career save one good season

Isn't it amazing that time and again athletes have that one good year when their current contract expires? The dollar is a great motivator.

mycroft
12-11-05, 12:02 PM
I would rather see Wright traded and Pavano kept.

Dr. Gonzo
12-11-05, 12:29 PM
I would rather see Wright traded and Pavano kept.
me too

NewEraYanks2527
12-11-05, 01:04 PM
I would rather see Wright traded and Pavano kept. I think that is the popular consensus on the boards but it is one of the more unlikely scenarios. I don't know of any teams interested in Wright and it was a mistake from day one.

yankeebot
12-11-05, 01:16 PM
I would rather see Wright traded and Pavano kept.
Most would agree. The only upside to Wright is (correct me if I am wrong), his contract can be bought out after 2006 due to the time on the DL in 2005. Pavano is ours for 3 more years. Hopefully, one of these guys will come out of the gate strong and increase his trade value in the spring. And, hopefully, the Yankees FO will recognize the they need to act on it.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 01:24 PM
Most would agree. The only upside to Wright is (correct me if I am wrong), his contract can be bought out after 2006 due to the time on the DL in 2005. Pavano is ours for 3 more years. Hopefully, one of these guys will come out of the gate strong and increase his trade value in the spring. And, hopefully, the Yankees FO will recognize the they need to act on it.

Agreed that and the fact that there are some teams out there that actually like Pavano is why I would rather trade him than Wright. 1 more year of Wright who will get injured anyway> 3 more years of Pavano.

We can realistically get Jeremy Reed and some bullpen help for Pavano which would basically solve all of our major problems besides the 1b/dh situation.

DJ27
12-11-05, 02:28 PM
Agreed that and the fact that there are some teams out there that actually like Pavano is why I would rather trade him than Wright. 1 more year of Wright who will get injured anyway> 3 more years of Pavano.

We can realistically get Jeremy Reed and some bullpen help for Pavano which would basically solve all of our major problems besides the 1b/dh situation.

I agree and really think Pavano will be moved before spring.

Yankees1962
12-11-05, 02:33 PM
With Crosby we have 3 potetional black holes which leads to an inconsistant offence. We can survive one black hole but with 3 the hitting will be just like last year. One day we score 15 runs the next we get shutout.

Pavano is not a good pitcher he had one good year and has been horrible in every other year and he has low k rates. He is never going to repeat his 2004 or have an era below 4.30 in the Al East.
Please, name me the black holes besides Crosby?

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-11-05, 02:50 PM
Please get Granderson...

wang+cano=future
12-11-05, 03:06 PM
Is it too much out there that maybe both the Michaels and Reed trades will happen, Sheff getting moved to DH, and possibly signing Washburn to keep Wright in the pen?

1. Reed CF
2. Jeter SS
3. Rodriquez 3B
4. Matsui LF
5. Sheffield DH
6. Giambi 1B
7. Michaels RF
8. Cano 2B
9. Posada C

Also, is the nyynews.com site total crap? There are so many rumors there that they make sound legitimate, including both the Reed and Michaels ones...

Yankeeah
12-11-05, 03:12 PM
I put it in the other thread, but I'll throw it in here too.

From my expierences, NYYnews is crap. They scan the web for any mention of the word Yankees and present it as a possible deal.
Example: If a sportswriter writes that it makes sense to trade Pavano for Willy Taveras, NYYnews will then say "Pavano for Taveras, Cashman is considering it."

Mark19
12-11-05, 03:13 PM
I put it in the other thread, but I'll throw it in here too.

From my expierences, NYYnews is crap. They scan the web for any mention of the word Yankees and present it as a possible deal.
Example: If a sportswriter writes that it makes sense to trade Pavano for Willy Taveras, NYYnews will then say "Pavano for Taveras, Cashman is considering it."

Yeah, the writers are morons

Kulish29
12-11-05, 03:35 PM
I put it in the other thread, but I'll throw it in here too.

From my expierences, NYYnews is crap. They scan the web for any mention of the word Yankees and present it as a possible deal.
Example: If a sportswriter writes that it makes sense to trade Pavano for Willy Taveras, NYYnews will then say "Pavano for Taveras, Cashman is considering it."

Have you been to their site today? Apparently the Yankees are ready to sign Damon to a 4 year deal worth 4 years $10-13 million. And they're happy about that.

Kulish29
12-11-05, 03:37 PM
I would rather see Wright traded and Pavano kept.

So would everybody else, but that is not realistic.

Yankeeah
12-11-05, 03:44 PM
Have you been to their site today? Apparently the Yankees are ready to sign Damon to a 4 year deal worth 4 years $10-13 million. And they're happy about that.

I wonder if they are members here. They could easily turn that site into a repubitle one if managed properly.

nahzo
12-11-05, 04:29 PM
1997: Shoulder tightness in ST. IP held to 161. Traded to Montreal.
1998: Expected to start season in majors. Shoulder tightness in ST, starts season in extended ST and in AAA on a rehab assigment, starts major league season in late May.
1999: Placed on DL with sore elbow in July. Pitches sparingly the rest of the season.
2000: Placed on DL with elbow tendinitis on June 27. Surgery. Season over.
2001: Post surgical inflamation keeps Pavano on the DL until August.
2002: Still not feeling right, pulled from the rotation and demoted to AAA in June. Traded to the Marlins. Pitched out of the pen for Florida and then was put into the rotation when Burnett got hurt.
2003: Shoulder soreness in ST. Pitches through it and logs 200 94 ERA+ innings.
2004: Felt good all year. Had his one good season.
2005: Makes his last start on June 28 and does not return with shoulder soreness.

This would have been nice to read last year. ;)

JeffWeaverFan
12-11-05, 04:30 PM
I would rather see Wright traded and Pavano kept.
I wouldn't. Pavano is a league average pitcher who can't stay on the field making $10 million dollars a year for the next 3 seasons. Wright is making either $7 million a season for the next two, or $11 million for just next season. He's also a league average pitcher that can't stay on the field, but at least he won't sit out half a season with a sore shoulder. Both are bad, but one we are stuck with for 3 years while the other we are stuck with for only 1.

JeffWeaverFan
12-11-05, 04:31 PM
Is it too much out there that maybe both the Michaels and Reed trades will happen, Sheff getting moved to DH, and possibly signing Washburn to keep Wright in the pen?

1. Reed CF
2. Jeter SS
3. Rodriquez 3B
4. Matsui LF
5. Sheffield DH
6. Giambi 1B
7. Michaels RF
8. Cano 2B
9. Posada C

Also, is the nyynews.com site total crap? There are so many rumors there that they make sound legitimate, including both the Reed and Michaels ones...
Reed leading off instead of Jeter is ludicrous. JUST BECAUSE A PLAYER IS FAST DOESN'T MAKE HIM A LEADOFF HITTER!

ryanthe13th
12-11-05, 04:34 PM
I wouldn't. Pavano is a league average pitcher who can't stay on the field making $10 million dollars a year for the next 3 seasons. Wright is making either $7 million a season for the next two, or $11 million for just next season. He's also a league average pitcher that can't stay on the field, but at least he won't sit out half a season with a sore shoulder. Both are bad, but one we are stuck with for 3 years while the other we are stuck with for only 1.

So now because Pavano sat out half the season with shoulder issues(not saying the situation isn't sketchy), he is going to do it for the rest of his deal?

Wright is just not very good outside of Leo Mazzone's teachings. Besides being a pitcher that is liable to post an ERA of or just under 5.00, he has NO luck at all.

Yankeeah
12-11-05, 04:35 PM
Reed leading off instead of Jeter is ludicrous. JUST BECAUSE A PLAYER IS FAST DOESN'T MAKE HIM A LEADOFF HITTER!

Yikes, i didn't catch that. Most people don't seem to realize we have the best leadoff hitter in baseball.

nahzo
12-11-05, 04:40 PM
So now because Pavano sat out half the season with shoulder issues(not saying the situation isn't sketchy), he is going to do it for the rest of his deal?

Wright is just not very good outside of Leo Mazzone's teachings. Besides being a pitcher that is liable to post an ERA of or just under 5.00, he has NO luck at all.

Both suck, comparably to one another. Pavano sucks more because he'll cost more money over more years. It would be better off for the team if the one that costs the most vanished.

How on earth can you use "luck" as a means of measuring a player? You can't, because luck is blind.

JeffWeaverFan
12-11-05, 04:42 PM
So now because Pavano sat out half the season with shoulder issues(not saying the situation isn't sketchy), he is going to do it for the rest of his deal?

Wright is just not very good outside of Leo Mazzone's teachings. Besides being a pitcher that is liable to post an ERA of or just under 5.00, he has NO luck at all.
Pavano has had an 8 year career. He has twice pitched over 200 innings and has had numerous injuries during the course of his career. I'm saying that he won't sit out with a sore shoulder for the rest of his deal, just that we shouldn't expect him to give us 200 innings more than once in his next 3 seasons. The fact that shoulder soreness made him sit out a half a season speaks volumes about his ability to stay on the field IMO.

Secondly, Pavano isn't a good pitcher. He is a league average pitcher who has had literally one good season in his career. In that season he was pitching in an extreme pitcher's park, in the NL, and was extremely lucky. For the Yankees, you should expect him to have an ERA around 4.50.

Wright isn't any good either. But, we're only stuck with him for one last season.

Lastly, Pavano has more value than Wright and thus can get us more in return.

edit: Just look at BJG's post about Pavano's injury history. That's why I want to get rid of the pitcher that we are stuck with for 3 more seasons.

montrealer
12-11-05, 06:54 PM
Based on one injury plagued year?

One year?Check his stats with the Expos.The guy stunk.One good season has made him a millionaire.life is funny that way.

BillBuckner
12-11-05, 08:13 PM
One year?Check his stats with the Expos.The guy stunk.One good season has made him a millionaire.life is funny that way.
Yeah you're right, I never realized his other injury problems. I still think he has a lot to offer this team though.

Fabien Brandy
12-11-05, 08:14 PM
Matt Morris is signing with SF for 3 years, $27million. As others noted, the tighter and more expensive the market gets the less money the Yankees will have to kick in if/when they deal Pavano.

I'd do Pavano for Jeremy Reed and Julio Mateo right now.

BJG
12-11-05, 08:18 PM
I'd do Pavano for Jeremy Reed and Julio Mateo right now.

As would I. I think the Soriano talk is kind of pie in the sky, and I like Mateo more than Putz.

Yankeeah
12-11-05, 08:30 PM
Once Westbrook signs with someone besides the Mariners, then hopefully the Mariners will pursue Pavano more.

Fabien Brandy
12-11-05, 08:31 PM
Once Westbrook signs with someone besides the Mariners, then hopefully the Mariners will pursue Pavano more.
They'll still have Millwood as an option.

Yankeeah
12-11-05, 08:51 PM
They'll still have Millwood as an option.

Yikes, thats what I meant, Millwood not Westbrook.

Matsui55
12-11-05, 08:52 PM
Reed leading off instead of Jeter is ludicrous. JUST BECAUSE A PLAYER IS FAST DOESN'T MAKE HIM A LEADOFF HITTER!

What you are missing is what Jeter did in the late 90's- Jeter was the best #2 hitter in the game. Not only did he produce some great stats for a 2 hitter, but he was (and still is) one of the best at taking the pitch the other way to RF, so that a runner on 1B can get to 3B, or score from 2B.

Right now, the Yanks are shuffling a bunch of guys who are misfits for the 2 hole in the slot. If the Yanks could get a legit leadoff guy (NOTE: I am NOT saying that Reed is the right guy, though he might be later with his K/walk ratio), Jeter in the 2 hole should lead to increased production from the middle of the lineup, as we would have a more complete player in the 2 hole to set up Giambi, ARod and Matsui.

Because there would be fewer unproductive AB's at the top of the order (e.g., less base to base offense), it may even extend the benefits down to Posada (6th slot) and the bottom of the order.

Fabien Brandy
12-11-05, 08:57 PM
Right now, the Yanks are shuffling a bunch of guys who are misfits for the 2 hole in the slot. If the Yanks could get a legit leadoff guy
I think the Yankees should look for either a legit leadoff hitter or a legit 2 hole guy, as Jeter is an asset in either spot. The scoring difference between lineups with Jeter batting 1st or 2nd with an equal hitter in the other spot is not worth the vast amounts of cyberspace the debate has spawed.

YankeePride1967
12-11-05, 08:58 PM
What you are missing is what Jeter did in the late 90's- Jeter was the best #2 hitter in the game. Not only did he produce some great stats for a 2 hitter, but he was (and still is) one of the best at taking the pitch the other way to RF, so that a runner on 1B can get to 3B, or score from 2B.

Right now, the Yanks are shuffling a bunch of guys who are misfits for the 2 hole in the slot. If the Yanks could get a legit leadoff guy (NOTE: I am NOT saying that Reed is the right guy, though he might be later with his K/walk ratio), Jeter in the 2 hole should lead to increased production from the middle of the lineup, as we would have a more complete player in the 2 hole to set up Giambi, ARod and Matsui.

Because there would be fewer unproductive AB's at the top of the order (e.g., less base to base offense), it may even extend the benefits down to Posada (6th slot) and the bottom of the order.

Then we need to find someone who is a better leadoff hitter (i.e. high OBP) than Jeter. Having a guy at the top of the lineup like Reed with a low OBP where the leadoff position only happens once in a game, contradicts winning strategy. Why would your worst hitter get more ABs than the top 8?

PoughVirginiaYankee
12-11-05, 09:02 PM
This is somewhat tangental, but ESPN is reporting that Matt Morris has signed with the Giants, deciding against Texas, the Dodgers, and Seattle. Yes, it's a stretch, but just pointing out, that if Seattle is intent on adding SP, and the Yanks want to move Pavano there, things just got a little more desparate for the Mariners.

Matsui55
12-11-05, 09:41 PM
Then we need to find someone who is a better leadoff hitter (i.e. high OBP) than Jeter. Having a guy at the top of the lineup like Reed with a low OBP where the leadoff position only happens once in a game, contradicts winning strategy. Why would your worst hitter get more ABs than the top 8?

Reading is clearly a lost art- go read-read the second paragraph of my post before jumping in.

StatenIslandYankee
12-11-05, 09:56 PM
GOD, I hope this trade is real.

YankeePride1967
12-11-05, 10:02 PM
Reading is clearly a lost art- go read-read the second paragraph of my post before jumping in.

Reading clearly is, re-read the rest of my post. My point was to go just by speed is not reason to bat anyone (i.e. any player) one without a high OBP.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 10:13 PM
Pavano is going to net us our centerfielder and I love it.

NelsonMuntz
12-11-05, 10:14 PM
GOD, I hope this trade is real.
What trade?

StatenIslandYankee
12-11-05, 10:15 PM
What trade?
Pavano for Reed and Putz

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 10:23 PM
Pavano for Reed and Putz

that would be fricking ace, who is reporting that?

NelsonMuntz
12-11-05, 10:38 PM
Pavano for Reed and Putz
I don't think that trade was ever proposed:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?p=2946430#post2946430

Yankeeah
12-11-05, 10:38 PM
that would be fricking ace, who is reporting that?

No one, it's mostly speculation that has morphed into this. Both the Yankees and the Mariners have denied that talks went on between the two teams about Pavano. Not to say this couldn't happen, you never know.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 10:43 PM
No one, it's mostly speculation that has morphed into this. Both the Yankees and the Mariners have denied that talks went on between the two teams about Pavano. Not to say this couldn't happen, you never know.

Damn, got my hopes up but it would make sence if the Mariners really like Pavano(I dont see why they would but some teams are stupid)

Jersey Yankee
12-11-05, 10:54 PM
Please, name me the black holes besides Crosby?
If by "black hole", you'd meant either weak spots or things which need improvement:

Catcher
Mid relievers
Infield utility guy
Outfield utility guy

JeffWeaverFan
12-11-05, 11:02 PM
What you are missing is what Jeter did in the late 90's- Jeter was the best #2 hitter in the game. Not only did he produce some great stats for a 2 hitter, but he was (and still is) one of the best at taking the pitch the other way to RF, so that a runner on 1B can get to 3B, or score from 2B.

Right now, the Yanks are shuffling a bunch of guys who are misfits for the 2 hole in the slot. If the Yanks could get a legit leadoff guy (NOTE: I am NOT saying that Reed is the right guy, though he might be later with his K/walk ratio), Jeter in the 2 hole should lead to increased production from the middle of the lineup, as we would have a more complete player in the 2 hole to set up Giambi, ARod and Matsui.

Because there would be fewer unproductive AB's at the top of the order (e.g., less base to base offense), it may even extend the benefits down to Posada (6th slot) and the bottom of the order.
Yes, in '99 and '00 he wasn't just the best #2 hitter in the game, he was one of the best hitters in the game. He isn't as good of a hitter as he was then. He would be a great #2 hitter because of those skills, but he is also a great leadoff hitter. Also, the thing that he did a lot as a 2 hitter is bunt the man over in the first innings of games when the leadoff hitter got on. I hated that and is a reason why he shouldn't hit 2nd.

Personally, I think the best lineup has great hitters at the top. A-Rod is a great #2 hitter. Giambi would be a great #2 hitter.

Yeah, less base to base offense helps, but what helps the most is getting on base instead of making outs. And that is why it is so great to have Jeter and his .400 OBP leading off the game.

wang+cano=future
12-11-05, 11:02 PM
How about maybe Seattle including one of their catcher prospects (Clement or Rivera) in the deal? Or instead of Putz...

Yankeeah
12-11-05, 11:23 PM
Damn, got my hopes up but it would make sence if the Mariners really like Pavano(I dont see why they would but some teams are stupid)

Thats the problem. It makes sense, so everyone assumed that its being discussed, which it might be, but has never been said.

NelsonMuntz
12-11-05, 11:25 PM
Damn, got my hopes up but it would make sence if the Mariners really like Pavano(I dont see why they would but some teams are stupid)
He did pitch one of his best games against them last year.

JapanJobbers
12-11-05, 11:45 PM
How about maybe Seattle including one of their catcher prospects (Clement or Rivera) in the deal? Or instead of Putz...

If you're asking for Clement, why not ask for Felix as well..

JapanJobbers
12-11-05, 11:46 PM
Pavano for Reed and Putz

I don't know if it was ever offered, but I read it might have been if Seattle traded for Pierre. They tried for him, but it didn't go anywhere so I would expect the Reed deal is dead. Seattle has no other CFer to take over there.

Kulish29
12-12-05, 12:20 AM
I don't know if it was ever offered, but I read it might have been if Seattle traded for Pierre. They tried for him, but it didn't go anywhere so I would expect the Reed deal is dead. Seattle has no other CFer to take over there.

Ichiro could easily slide over.

JapanJobbers
12-12-05, 12:37 AM
Ichiro could easily slide over.

I doubt the M's would do that. It probably has the same chance as Jeter moving to CF.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 12:45 AM
I doubt the M's would do that. It probably has the same chance as Jeter moving to CF.

Considering Ichiro has played there, it's not even comparable to Jeter moving to center.

If Seattle wants Pavano enough they would move Reed.

JapanJobbers
12-12-05, 12:54 AM
Considering Ichiro has played there, it's not even comparable to Jeter moving to center.

If Seattle wants Pavano enough they would move Reed.

When has Ichiro played CF? If the M's wanted him there, it would have been after Cameron left.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 12:57 AM
When has Ichiro played CF? If the M's wanted him there, it would have been after Cameron left.

He played 3 games there in 2002, while Cameron was there.

JapanJobbers
12-12-05, 01:10 AM
He played 3 games there in 2002, while Cameron was there.

He probably could play there, but it's believed that he doesn't want to and the M's have no intention of asking him. Especially after his comments about last season, I don't think the M's would even bring up the subject.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 01:12 AM
He probably could play there, but it's believed that he doesn't want to and the M's have no intention of asking him. Especially after his comments about last season, I don't think the M's would even bring up the subject.

I didn't say he would move, I just said he has played there and it's not nearly comparable to the Jeter move.

JapanJobbers
12-12-05, 01:16 AM
I didn't say he would move, I just said he has played there and it's not nearly comparable to the Jeter move.

I compared it to Jeter cause neither team would actually ask them to move, even if it might be for the best.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 01:25 AM
I compared it to Jeter cause neither team would actually ask them to move, even if it might be for the best.

I don't see why the Mariners wouldn't ask, they have in the past, and i see no reason why they shouldn't in the future.

JapanJobbers
12-12-05, 01:31 AM
I don't see why the Mariners wouldn't ask, they have in the past, and i see no reason why they shouldn't in the future.

I'm not sure if they asked him before. I've read that he has said no, but I've also read that he said they never ask him. They consider him the best defensive RFer in MLB, so they often use that as an excuse. I would have moved him to CF after Cameron left. Before Reed was traded, I'm sure that we would see lots of news of the M's asking Ichiro to play CF. I don't think they would trade Reed and then ask him.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 01:35 AM
I'm not sure if they asked him before. I've read that he has said no, but I've also read that he said they never ask him. They consider him the best defensive RFer in MLB, so they often use that as an excuse. I would have moved him to CF after Cameron left. Before Reed was traded, I'm sure that we would see lots of news of the M's asking Ichiro to play CF. I don't think they would trade Reed and then ask him.

They have asked him to play there before, because he has. I don't see why they wouldn't do it on a permenent basis, assuming they needed a CFer.

JapanJobbers
12-12-05, 01:44 AM
They have asked him to play there before, because he has. I don't see why they wouldn't do it on a permenent basis, assuming they needed a CFer.

There's a difference asking him to fill in for Mike Cameron for a game or less. He wants to be a RFer and not a CFer. I don't know why. They didn't ask him when they put Winn in CF, so I don't see them ever asking him.

Huktonfonix
12-12-05, 02:44 AM
Wasn't Ichiro a centerfielder in Japan?

JapanJobbers
12-12-05, 02:54 AM
Wasn't Ichiro a centerfielder in Japan?

He was definitely a RFer for the majority of his time there. I'm not positive on his first few years though.

NYDCYankee
12-12-05, 03:13 AM
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/251667_mari12.html


YANKS COOL ON REED: Speculation on trades between the Mariners and Yankees has often started with the premise that New York would insist on Jeremy Reed's inclusion in any proposal for right-hander Carl Pavano.

Now, that assumption seems outdated. One Yankees source said Sunday that they would not view Reed as a significant upgrade over Bubba Crosby.

Instead, the source said, Seattle would need to make bullpen components -- such as Julio Mateo, J.J. Putz, Rafael Soriano or some combination thereof -- a significant part of any deal for Pavano. New York also likes left fielder/designated hitter Raul Ibanez, but the Mariners would be reluctant to move him.

Looks like we have cooled on Reed, though this may be a part of Cash's strategy to get more out of Seattle. BTW Reed is a significant upgrade over Bubba.

NYDCYankee
12-12-05, 03:18 AM
I will say though since it appears that Seattle has lost out on Morris (who isn't that good anyway) maybe this could force Seattle in to kicking in an extra player.

dabomb2045
12-12-05, 03:23 AM
Pavano for Reed and Putz


that would be an absolute steal for us....I cant imagine Seattle is dumb enough to do it

JapanJobbers
12-12-05, 04:33 AM
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/251667_mari12.html



Looks like we have cooled on Reed, though this may be a part of Cash's strategy to get more out of Seattle. BTW Reed is a significant upgrade over Bubba.

I would hope it's a strategy otherwise I would think he's gone insane.

Davios
12-12-05, 07:26 AM
So we're high on Ibaņez but think Reed is comprable to Bubba Crosby????? If that's seriously the case I thought way too highly of Cash.

Yanks Lifer
12-12-05, 08:48 AM
I would hope it's a strategy otherwise I would think he's gone insane.

IMHO, it is a strategy move by Cashman. I think he'd love to have Reed, but won't say so. Perhaps his thinking is that by getting Soriano or Mateo rather than Putz this would complete the bullpen (possibly also sign Dotel to incentive deal) along with CF. Money saved on a FA reliever can then be used towards another SP, maybe one in his early 40s from Texas ... just for example. ;)

With Matt Morris now off the market that's also one less FA SP for Seattle to pursue, and with the money being thrown at the free agent pitchers this off season 3 years of Pavano at $5 - $7 million per may look very appealing to them.

Having said the above, I'm not sure how Ibanez plays into this. Maybe the Yanks really don't see Andy Phillips as a backup and view Ibanez as playing 1B or RF when Sheff or Giambi DH.

MTYankee23
12-12-05, 09:01 AM
I would love to see us land Ibanez. If the M's are stupid enough to want Pavano in the first place, too bad we can't convince them to send us Ibanez, Reed, and a reliever.

DJ27
12-12-05, 10:29 AM
I would love to see us land Ibanez. If the M's are stupid enough to want Pavano in the first place, too bad we can't convince them to send us Ibanez, Reed, and a reliever.

All part of the master plan!! ;) ;)

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 10:29 AM
I would love to see us land Ibanez. If the M's are stupid enough to want Pavano in the first place, too bad we can't convince them to send us Ibanez, Reed, and a reliever.

No way they send us all three. Getting Reed and a reliver is a steal, let alone Ibanez.

MTYankee23
12-12-05, 10:31 AM
No way they send us all three. Getting Reed and a reliver is a steal, let alone Ibanez.

I definitely agree with this. If we could get Ibanez and a reliever for Pavano, and Michaels for Sturtze and someone other than Henn, I'd be pretty psyched as well. Especially if they sign Dotel.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 10:34 AM
I definitely agree with this. If we could get Ibanez and a reliever for Pavano, and Michaels for Sturtze and someone other than Henn, I'd be pretty psyched as well. Especially if they sign Dotel.

I'm not to high on Ibanez, I'd rather see if we can get Reed. He played GG calibur defense last year.

MTYankee23
12-12-05, 10:50 AM
I'm not to high on Ibanez, I'd rather see if we can get Reed. He played GG calibur defense last year.

I'm high on both, Michaels too. And a reliever is gravy. Ibanez would be a good fit in YS.

Yankees1962
12-12-05, 10:54 AM
I'm high on both, Michaels too. And a reliever is gravy. Ibanez would be a good fit in YS.
I thought Ibanez wasn't considered a good fielder?

jcan411
12-12-05, 11:00 AM
I'm not to high on Ibanez, I'd rather see if we can get Reed. He played GG calibur defense last year.

Reed is about as worthless an offensive player as you can find. He would be a frustrating black hole in our line-up

MTYankee23
12-12-05, 11:03 AM
I thought Ibanez wasn't considered a good fielder?

Average, and he wouldn't be playing CF anyhow. LF, RF, 1B, DH.

Wang's Groundballs
12-12-05, 11:07 AM
Reed is about as worthless an offensive player as you can find. He would be a frustrating black hole in our line-up

You do realize he's had a total of 1 full season in the bigs, right? He's never going to be a great hitter, but considering what he did in the minors he should become an above average hitter for CF.

Wang's Groundballs
12-12-05, 11:08 AM
Is Ibanez rumored to be included or is it just someone some of you guys want?

ICEBERG18
12-12-05, 11:10 AM
Is Ibanez rumored to be included or is it just someone some of you guys want?


YANKS COOL ON REED: Speculation on trades between the Mariners and Yankees has often started with the premise that New York would insist on Jeremy Reed's inclusion in any proposal for right-hander Carl Pavano.

Now, that assumption seems outdated. One Yankees source said Sunday that they would not view Reed as a significant upgrade over Bubba Crosby.

Instead, the source said, Seattle would need to make bullpen components -- such as Julio Mateo, J.J. Putz, Rafael Soriano or some combination thereof -- a significant part of any deal for Pavano. New York also likes left fielder/designated hitter Raul Ibanez, but the Mariners would be reluctant to move him.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/251667_mari12.html

That's where it came from......

Wang's Groundballs
12-12-05, 11:13 AM
Thanks ice.

If we get Michaels for CF I'd love to have Ibanez as our RF. I think the Yankees are stupid if they don't see Reed as much of an upgrade over Crosby, though.

jcan411
12-12-05, 11:18 AM
You do realize he's had a total of 1 full season in the bigs, right? He's never going to be a great hitter, but considering what he did in the minors he should become an above average hitter for CF.

there's a difference between rookie slumping and being just plain lost. he did not excel in one sigle offensive area....

jcan411
12-12-05, 11:24 AM
let's see what people think

Player A .254/.322/.352
Player B .316/.366/.439
Player C .276/.326/.354
Player D .248/.351/.405

These are four CF we have at least been looking at (along with others not included). these are full seasons. Who is what (without looking up)

jcan411
12-12-05, 11:24 AM
Thanks ice.

If we get Michaels for CF I'd love to have Ibanez as our RF. I think the Yankees are stupid if they don't see Reed as much of an upgrade over Crosby, though.

Reed is better defensively, but are you honestly saying he is close offensively

Wang's Groundballs
12-12-05, 11:26 AM
Reed is better defensively, but are you honestly saying he is close offensively

No, he's not close offensively. He's lightyears ahead of Crosby -- which isn't saying much about Reed just how awful Crosby is -- and has much more potential.

gdn
12-12-05, 11:27 AM
let's see what people think

Player A .254/.322/.352
Player B .316/.366/.439
Player C .276/.326/.354
Player D .248/.351/.405

These are four CF we have at least been looking at (along with others not included). these are full seasons. Who is what (without looking up)

I'm gonna have to say:
A: Reed
B: Damon
C: Wilkerson
D: Bubba

Wang's Groundballs
12-12-05, 11:27 AM
let's see what people think

Player A .254/.322/.352
Player B .316/.366/.439
Player C .276/.326/.354
Player D .248/.351/.405

These are four CF we have at least been looking at (along with others not included). these are full seasons. Who is what (without looking up)

Reed
Damon
?
?

Where's Michaels? He should be on the list.

Wang's Groundballs
12-12-05, 11:29 AM
there's a difference between rookie slumping and being just plain lost. he did not excel in one sigle offensive area....

He didn't strike out too often, walked at a decent rate, and had a good amount of doubles. He may not have excelled, but there's no reason to think that he won't get significantly better.

gdn
12-12-05, 11:29 AM
Well, I was wrong on two counts. I have no idea who C is.

MTYankee23
12-12-05, 11:30 AM
I remember that D is Wilkerson from the dozens of I hate Pierre threads I started.

Wang's Groundballs
12-12-05, 11:31 AM
I remember that D is Wilkerson from the dozens of I hate Pierre threads I started.

Heh, and C is Pierre.

gdn
12-12-05, 11:32 AM
:barf:

Gimme D any day over the others.

JeffWeaverFan
12-12-05, 11:50 AM
let's see what people think

Player A .254/.322/.352
Player B .316/.366/.439
Player C .276/.326/.354
Player D .248/.351/.405

These are four CF we have at least been looking at (along with others not included). these are full seasons. Who is what (without looking up)
Reed
Damon
Pierre
Wilkerson

DiMaggio5CF
12-12-05, 12:34 PM
:barf:

Gimme D any day over the others.

You'd really want the player who's worse in batting average, OBP, and slugging percentage when compared to B?

Okay . . . you can have him.

gdn
12-12-05, 12:36 PM
You'd really want the player who's worse in batting average, OBP, and slugging percentage when compared to B?

Okay . . . you can have him.Taking into account price and age? Yes.

Wang's Groundballs
12-12-05, 12:39 PM
You'd really want the player who's worse in batting average, OBP, and slugging percentage when compared to B?

Okay . . . you can have him.

Considering that he'll be about 1/3 of the cost, is coming from an extreme pitchers' park instead of a good hitters' park, and is a better defender, then yeah, I would.

jcan411
12-12-05, 01:03 PM
All told B is the best by far. D is the only one close to the same level. My porblem is that B's numbers are the only ones that would be acceptable, and due to age (although he's not 36 or something), he will be too expensive....

jcan411
12-12-05, 01:04 PM
A 350 Slugging percentage is just plain awful

mbn007
12-12-05, 01:20 PM
Reed
Damon
Pierre
Wilkerson

Don't look now, but if Bubba takes some of what Mattingly has nbeen working on with him, I think he can put up numbers close to C and D.

And everyone wanted one of those 2, self included, as I wanted Wilkerson.

jcan411
12-12-05, 01:23 PM
Crosby, in only 74 games

.276/.304/.327

Thats worse than all of them. I don't see how you get this better. Those numbers are awful. A .631 OPS is pure evil

mbn007
12-12-05, 01:27 PM
Crosby, in only 74 games

.276/.304/.327

Thats worse than all of them. I don't see how you get this better. Those numbers are awful. A .631 OPS is pure evil

True.

But he started playing regularly only in September, and that was after Mattingly worked all season with him. And he did very well in September. Good enough to start a couple of playoff games ahead of Bernie, who I thought Torre would never sit in a post-season game.

SO the potential is there.

hlrjr
12-12-05, 01:33 PM
"One Yankees source said Sunday that they would not view Reed as a significant upgrade over Bubba Crosby."

WTF are they thinking? This has to be posturing. No way Cashman believes that.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
12-12-05, 01:34 PM
Its not potential. His september numbers raised his overall numbers because he was being pitched to as if he were a pitcher, which he basically was compaired to the rest of the lineup. Any expert will tell you not to pay attention to spring training or september numbers. To describe Bubba as a major leaguer, terrible is not an exaggeration. If Mattingly could get .255/.330/.400 out of him for a full year it would make him the best hitting coach in baseball.

gurgie
12-12-05, 01:36 PM
Reed is the best defender of the lot and likey to improve his hitting he is also only 24. him plus a BP arm for pavano would make me happy right now. that said as more pitchers get signed or traded Pavano's trade value will only rise. so as much as it pains me in this most boring of base ball months to have to go weeks with out new news. I think that waiting may be the best course of action.

NelsonMuntz
12-12-05, 01:56 PM
"One Yankees source said Sunday that they would not view Reed as a significant upgrade over Bubba Crosby."

WTF are they thinking? This has to be posturing. No way Cashman believes that.
Definitely sounds like posturing to get the Mariners to throw in a reliever or Ibanez.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-12-05, 01:59 PM
Definitely sounds like posturing to get the Mariners to throw in a reliever or Ibanez.

Either that or the Yankees are going to hold out to see if Ichiro does indeed become available at some point and Pavano would be one of the big pieces heading back to Seattle.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 02:21 PM
You'd really want the player who's worse in batting average, OBP, and slugging percentage when compared to B?

Okay . . . you can have him.

you have to factor age, price, years and decline into the equation

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-12-05, 02:22 PM
Considering Reed hasn't shown any type of translation of his minor league numbers to MLB, I would say the Yankees are right in wanting more for Pavano...

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 02:23 PM
Either that or the Yankees are going to hold out to see if Ichiro does indeed become available at some point and Pavano would be one of the big pieces heading back to Seattle.

I dont want Ichiro. Id rather have reed and bullpen pieces

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 02:25 PM
Considering Reed hasn't shown any type of translation of his minor league numbers to MLB, I would say the Yankees are right in wanting more for Pavano...

Sheffs first season: .247/.303/.337

Im not sayinf Reed will be Sheff but that there is a good chance that Reed will put up whatever numbers he did in AAA. At worst he would be one of the best defenders in the game.

jcan411
12-12-05, 02:26 PM
Reed is the best defender of the lot and likey to improve his hitting he is also only 24. him plus a BP arm for pavano would make me happy right now. that said as more pitchers get signed or traded Pavano's trade value will only rise. so as much as it pains me in this most boring of base ball months to have to go weeks with out new news. I think that waiting may be the best course of action.

I love how everyone on this board practically automatically thinks that younger players will always hit better. Whether its cano learning more patience, or wang striking more out, or Reed (only if we were to get him mind you), hitting better because he is "young" at 24. Ty wigginton, Carlos Pena, Eric Hintski, angel Berroa, and about 80% of other rookies say HI.

His numbers are just bad, and I don't know why anyone will think they are going to get better. The same with Crosby. Do players progress, Yes. Do a lot of them progress, yes. Do most of them progress, no.

If all or even most progressed you would have offenses with the lowest ops being 800. Reed is not good offensively and neither is crosby and neither will be much better next year....

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 02:28 PM
I love how everyone on this board practically automatically thinks that younger players will always hit better. Whether its cano learning more patience, or wang striking more out, or Reed (only if we were to get him mind you), hitting better because he is "young" at 24. Ty wigginton, Carlos Pena, Eric Hintski, angel Berroa, and about 80% of other rookies say HI.

His numbers are just bad, and I don't know why anyone will think they are going to get better. The same with Crosby. Do players progress, Yes. Do a lot of them progress, yes. Do most of them progress, no.

If all or even most progressed you would have offenses with the lowest ops being 800. Reed is not good offensively and neither is crosby and neither will be much better next year....

The difference is when a player is young and puts up good numbers in the minors you give him another chance after one bad year. He might not get better hell he might even regress you dont know that though, he also might get better. Bubba Crosby is 30 he will only get worst from here on out. Reed is a better defender.

jcan411
12-12-05, 02:30 PM
Sheffs first season: .247/.303/.337

Im not sayinf Reed will be Sheff but that there is a good chance that Reed will put up whatever numbers he did in AAA. At worst he would be one of the best defenders in the game.

Erick Hinske first season 279/365/481
Way under last year

Theres about a hundred other like this. Players are players and their numbers can fluctuate, but he could also get worse. there is little to no guarentee he will get any better

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 02:30 PM
BTW does anybody have Reeds minor league numbers? He will most likely never hit for power but if he can get on base with his defense im good.

jcan411
12-12-05, 02:31 PM
The difference is when a player is young and puts up good numbers in the minors you give him another chance after one bad year. He might not get better hell he might even regress you dont know that though, he also might get better. Bubba Crosby is 30 he will only get worst from here on out. Reed is a better defender.

I'm not saying kick him out of the league, buddy. I'm just saying why would we want him. Do we really want a horrible offensive player that might turn things around if lucky? thats not how you build a championship team...

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 02:32 PM
Erick Hinske first season 279/365/481
Way under last year

Theres about a hundred other like this. Players are players and their numbers can fluctuate, but he could also get worse. there is little to no guarentee he will get any better

Agreed but you dont know he will get worse either. Its a crap shoot that is worth imo taking a chance on because at very worse he is one of the best defensive centerfielders in the league.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 02:34 PM
I'm not saying kick him out of the league, buddy. I'm just saying why would we want him. Do we really want a horrible offensive player that might turn things around if lucky? thats not how you build a championship team...

so we should have traded Bernie right? Some things are just worth taking a chance on especially whe you consider Pavano sucks we wouldnt really be giving anything up anyway. Its worth the risk that at very worse we get a great defensive CF who cant hit. At best we get a centerfielder who is great defensively and can get on base. Either way we are trading a crappy pitcher.

Dr. Gonzo
12-12-05, 02:50 PM
so we should have traded Bernie right? Some things are just worth taking a chance on especially whe you consider Pavano sucks we wouldnt really be giving anything up anyway. Its worth the risk that at very worse we get a great defensive CF who cant hit. At best we get a centerfielder who is great defensively and can get on base. Either way we are trading a crappy pitcher.
why is pavano a crappy pitcher? Because he was injured one year? He can be a solid 2-3, and I expect him to do so.

but regardless..

so you state that he is a crappy pitcher, and I must assume you base this on last season. So wouldn't many others think he is crappy, thus meaning that he won't get anything worthwhile for someone who a season ago was the most coveted pitcher out there.

You want to trade him when his value is the lowest, and that is very shortshighted, impulsive and stupid. He has more value going out there and being in the rotation then he would trading for a part time player like michaels.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 02:53 PM
why is pavano a crappy pitcher? Because he was injured one year? He can be a solid 2-3, and I expect him to do so.

but regardless..

so you state that he is a crappy pitcher, and I must assume you base this on last season. So wouldn't many others think he is crappy, thus meaning that he won't get anything worthwhile for someone who a season ago was the most coveted pitcher out there.

You want to trade him when his value is the lowest, and that is very shortshighted, impulsive and stupid. He has more value going out there and being in the rotation then he would trading for a part time player like michaels.

Nah I was was talking about his crappy career(save one good fluke season). Teams still have interest in him because 2004 was only one year ago but after he goes back to his career norm for a second year in a row and eventually third and fourth teams will lose interest in him.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-12-05, 03:03 PM
Sheffs first season: .247/.303/.337

Im not sayinf Reed will be Sheff but that there is a good chance that Reed will put up whatever numbers he did in AAA. At worst he would be one of the best defenders in the game.

So? Sheffield slugged like .550 in the minors his first few years, and was brought up way too early (19). Its a very bad comparison. You don't trade one of your best chips for something that has not only been unproven but has completely failed in his first season. It would be a large gamble, I'd rather have Granderson...

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 03:07 PM
So? Sheffield slugged like .550 in the minors his first few years, and was brought up way too early (19). Its a very bad comparison. You don't trade one of your best chips for something that has not only been unproven but has completely failed in his first season. It would be a large gamble, I'd rather have Granderson...

what did reed in the minors?

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-12-05, 03:15 PM
what did reed in the minors?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/jeremy-reed.shtml

ICEBERG18
12-12-05, 03:21 PM
what did reed in the minors?

Reed's minor league career totals:.327/.401/.478

jcan411
12-12-05, 03:40 PM
so we should have traded Bernie right? Some things are just worth taking a chance on especially whe you consider Pavano sucks we wouldnt really be giving anything up anyway. Its worth the risk that at very worse we get a great defensive CF who cant hit. At best we get a centerfielder who is great defensively and can get on base. Either way we are trading a crappy pitcher.

there are tons of crappy hitters that can field CF well. Plus, he can't get on base. We need to pass on this guy, he will make us all iserable whne he comes to bat and kills all of our rallies next year....

Mattpat11
12-12-05, 04:19 PM
why is pavano a crappy pitcher? Because he was injured one year? He can be a solid 2-3, and I expect him to do so.
He's not crappy as much as he's mediocre

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 04:20 PM
He's not crappy as much as he's mediocre

he would be mediocre if he could stay healthy, but as his career shows that isnt very likely to happen.

DJ27
12-12-05, 04:21 PM
He's not crappy as much as he's mediocre

Remember that mediocre is crappy when wearing the pinstripes! Expectations are very different wearing the Yankee uniform.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 04:24 PM
there are tons of crappy hitters that can field CF well. Plus, he can't get on base. We need to pass on this guy, he will make us all miserable when he comes to bat and kills all of our rallies next year....

How do you know for sure he wont reach his potetional? Either way he wont be worse than Crosby(which isnt saying a lot but other than Michaels who Phillie is asking a lot for, Damon who will be Bernie in a few years, Bernie who is Bernie and Crosby who sucks we dont have a lot of options) I would have loved Wilkerson or Bradley or even Giles but neither of those 3 are options at this point. Considering the choices I wouldnt mind taking a risk on a younf centerfielder with amazing defense who put up good numbers in the minors even if he had a bad rookie year.

Yanks Lifer
12-12-05, 04:32 PM
Reed's minor league career totals:.327/.401/.478

Thanks for the info Iceberg. Those numbers were posted over the course of 1,200 ABs which is a pretty good sample size. Granted they were better at lower levels in the minors, but his AAA numbers were .289/.362/.436 in 509 ABs.

Dynasties R Forever
12-12-05, 05:07 PM
Its not potential. His september numbers raised his overall numbers because he was being pitched to as if he were a pitcher, which he basically was compaired to the rest of the lineup. Any expert will tell you not to pay attention to spring training or september numbers. To describe Bubba as a major leaguer, terrible is not an exaggeration. If Mattingly could get .255/.330/.400 out of him for a full year it would make him the best hitting coach in baseball.

Yeahhhhh, that's the ticket. They thought he was like a pitcher, yeahhhh, that's it. Experts, yeah, the experts'll tell ya. September isn't a part of the regular season. All the experts know that. Crunch time production in the heat of a pennant race with possibly your future as a major league player at stake? I'm sure you'll say the experts should dismiss that out of hand as well. Well, of course we all know you won't be identifying any "experts" who say not to pay attention to any September numbers, particularly those in a pennant race, because you got nothing.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-12-05, 05:14 PM
Thanks for the info Iceberg. Those numbers were posted over the course of 1,200 ABs which is a pretty good sample size. Granted they were better at lower levels in the minors, but his AAA numbers were .289/.362/.436 in 509 ABs.


Man would I love to have him

Fabien Brandy
12-12-05, 05:14 PM
Well, of course we all know you won't be identifying any "experts" who say not to pay attention to any September numbers, particularly those in a pennant race, because you got nothing. "The wise old baseball sages long have warned us about the perils of making snap judgments on rookies in spring training or September."

- Bill Madden (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/173948p-151568c.html )

Fabien Brandy
12-12-05, 05:18 PM
Well, of course we all know you won't be identifying any "experts" who say not to pay attention to any September numbers, particularly those in a pennant race, because you got nothing."September is not to be trusted. It is the most meaningful month of the baseball season, and also the most misleading.

This is the time when pennant races are resolved and prospects are misjudged. It happens every autumn. The rosters are expanded, and the results can be deceiving. Seasoned observers can be blinded by beginner's luck, or soured by a false first step.

It is a dangerous time to be making decisions about a ballplayer's future.

''I think September can be very misleading,'' Reds manager Jack McKeon said Friday. ''You get a lot of young guys coming in here, and they've got tremendous enthusiasm. They either do well, and you get excited about them, or they do poorly and you cross them off the board. Which is unfair.'"

- Tim Sullivan, Cincinnati Enquirer, 1997 (http://www.enquirer.com/columns/sullivan/1997/09/090697_ts.html)

Kulish29
12-12-05, 05:23 PM
Man would I love to have him

As would I. He'd be a perfect fit for the Yankees CF hole.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 05:25 PM
Yeahhhhh, that's the ticket. They thought he was like a pitcher, yeahhhh, that's it. Experts, yeah, the experts'll tell ya. September isn't a part of the regular season. All the experts know that. Crunch time production in the heat of a pennant race with possibly your future as a major league player at stake? I'm sure you'll say the experts should dismiss that out of hand as well. Well, of course we all know you won't be identifying any "experts" who say not to pay attention to any September numbers, particularly those in a pennant race, because you got nothing.

Its not like Crosbys numbers were that great. He had crap OBP and crap Slugging 2 stats way better than batting average. He will NEVER be a good hitter

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 05:32 PM
As would I. He'd be a perfect fit for the Yankees CF hole.

He's my number one pick now, if we could get him and a BP arm for Pavano it would be a successful offseason

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 05:33 PM
He's my number one pick now, if we could get him and a BP arm for Pavano it would be a successful offseason

Agreed, great defense while being a good 9 hole hitter.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 05:34 PM
Agreed, great defense while being a good 9 hole hitter.

Hopefully Cash is trying to knock his price down a little bit by sayign hes not interested.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 05:37 PM
Hopefully Cash is trying to knock his price down a little bit by sayign hes not interested.

Well I sort of want Pavano to be the guy traded, but if Cash can get more for him than i am all for it.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 05:39 PM
Well I sort of want Pavano to be the guy traded, but if Cash can get more for him than i am all for it.

Yeah, maybe it's going to be Pavano, but he wants a better arm in return that hes trying to get.

The Dynasty
12-12-05, 05:39 PM
Question: Is this an unrealistic trade?

Mariners get Pavano and Cash.
Yankees get Soriano and Putz.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 05:42 PM
Question: Is this an unrealistic trade?

Mariners get Pavano and Cash.
Yankees get Soriano and Putz.

Well right now there is speculation about Pavano for Reed and a bullpen arm

If Cash plays this right and gets Reed and Soriano for Pavano that would be great.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 05:44 PM
Question: Is this an unrealistic trade?

Mariners get Pavano and Cash.
Yankees get Soriano and Putz.

If were trading with Seattle we better be getting Reed in return.

The Dynasty
12-12-05, 05:46 PM
Well right now there is speculation about Pavano for Reed and a bullpen arm

If Cash plays this right and gets Reed and Soriano for Pavano that would be great.

:drool:

Please let it be Soriano.

Wright/Small
Myers
Sturtze
Soriano
Farnsworth
Rivera

:drool:

The Dynasty
12-12-05, 05:48 PM
If were trading with Seattle we better be getting Reed in return.

I'd love to do something like this.

Mariners get: Pavano + Cabrera
Yankees get: Reed + Soriano+ Putz/Mateo

indianyanksfan
12-12-05, 05:51 PM
where does it say that we're trading with seattle? they didnt even discuss a trade during the winter meetings.

10 min away from here and you sure miss a lot...:lol:

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 05:51 PM
Pavano is staying in New York, I hate to break it to you guys.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 05:53 PM
where does it say that we're trading with seattle? they didnt even discuss a trade during the winter meetings.

10 min away from here and you sure miss a lot...:lol:

Its speculation and Seattle offered reed for Pavano a few weeks ago. Starting Pitching options are getting thin and Seattle likes Pavano for some reason. Purely speculation but it isnt that farfetched.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 05:54 PM
where does it say that we're trading with seattle? they didnt even discuss a trade during the winter meetings.

10 min away from here and you sure miss a lot...:lol:

The same newspaper that reported they didn't talk atthe winter meetings reported that the Yanks aren't too sure about Reed, but are interested in Mateo, Putz and Soriano.

The Dynasty
12-12-05, 05:55 PM
Pavano is staying in New York, I hate to break it to you guys.

Not that I have anything concrete to base it on, but it isn't farfetched to assume that he'll be on his way out.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 05:56 PM
Pavano is staying in New York, I hate to break it to you guys.

If he does I will be severely dissapointed. Several teams have expressed interest in him and imo he is very overrated do to one fluke year.

The Dynasty
12-12-05, 05:57 PM
If he does I will be severely dissapointed. Several teams have expressed interest in him and imo he is very overrated do to one fluke year.

Exactly, I wouldn't give him away for noting, and with these rumors I doubt that we will. Pavano when healthy is a solid arm (a number 3-type). He should get us some help on this team.

sugmasterflex
12-12-05, 06:01 PM
While I love Rafael Soriano's talent, he has been injured for the past couple of years.

Kulish29
12-12-05, 06:03 PM
Pavano is staying in New York, I hate to break it to you guys.

You know this as fact?

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:08 PM
You know this as fact?

The signs are all there. He's been making a few media appearances lately talking about the upcoming season and he had a meeting with Cashman in which he told him that he was comfortable playing in NY. Why is Cashman going to trade him? It's also reported that Cashman had a chance to trade Pavano for Reed straight up and turned it down, even though the Yankees could fill Pavano leaving with Wright being the #5 starter. If he gets traded, I'd be suprised.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 06:09 PM
Exactly, I wouldn't give him away for noting, and with these rumors I doubt that we will. Pavano when healthy is a solid arm (a number 3-type). He should get us some help on this team.

I disagree I think when healthy(which if you look at his career is rare) he is a number 5 in the AL. That being said he has higher perceived value for whatever reason and we should do our best to get a lot for him.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 06:11 PM
The signs are all there. He's been making a few media appearances lately talking about the upcoming season and he had a meeting with Cashman in which he told him that he was comfortable playing in NY. Why is Cashman going to trade him? It's also reported that Cashman had a chance to trade Pavano for Reed straight up and turned it down, even though the Yankees could fill Pavano leaving with Wright being the #5 starter. If he gets traded, I'd be suprised.

The main reason they would trade him is because they need a CFer, and there are a few teams that want him, that have a CFer to spare, most notably Seattle and Philadelphia

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:15 PM
The main reason they would trade him is because they need a CFer, and there are a few teams that want him, that have a CFer to spare, most notably Seattle and Philadelphia


It's also reported that Cashman had a chance to trade Pavano for Reed straight up and turned it down, even though the Yankees could fill Pavano leaving with Wright being the #5 starter.

Cashman has his hearts on etheir Damon or Crosby in CF. I wish they would just sign Damon already and get the backlash over.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 06:16 PM
Cashman has his hearts on etheir Damon or Crosby in CF. I wish they would just sign Damon already and get the backlash over.

If Cashman wanted Damon he would've been a Yankee already. Cash is just driving up the price for the BoSox.

You want the Yankees to sign Damon? :uhh: :uhh:

JeffWeaverFan
12-12-05, 06:19 PM
why is pavano a crappy pitcher? Because he was injured one year? He can be a solid 2-3, and I expect him to do so.
He's a league average pitcher with league average K/9 and a league average G/F ratio. He's a solid 4 starter.

but regardless..


so you state that he is a crappy pitcher, and I must assume you base this on last season. So wouldn't many others think he is crappy, thus meaning that he won't get anything worthwhile for someone who a season ago was the most coveted pitcher out there.

No, not one season. He's been an average pitcher for his entire career except for one season. That is, when he can stay healthy, which is a rarity. Since he's still just a year removed from that good season, and last year wasn't good because of this shoulder soreness, and given the fact that pitching is quite expensive in FA this year, teams would definitely be willing to take a chance on him and a few teams would think that a change is for the better.



You want to trade him when his value is the lowest, and that is very shortshighted, impulsive and stupid. He has more value going out there and being in the rotation then he would trading for a part time player like michaels.
His value isn't all that low right now given the pitchers market and we need a CFer badly. You are also forgetting that his value could and would decrease if he continues to pitch like he did last season and for his entire career except for one season.

spiritof27
12-12-05, 06:21 PM
From ESPN Insider


The Yankees have cooled on center fielder Jeremy Reed in a potential Carl Pavano trade, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer reports. Speculation on trades between the Mariners and Yanks had suggested New York would insist on Jeremy Reed's inclusion in any proposal for Pavano.

But the pinstripes do not view Reed as a significant upgrade over Bubba Crosby, and Seattle would need to make bullpen components -- such as Julio Mateo, J.J. Putz, Rafael Soriano or some combination thereof -- a significant part of any deal for the right-handed starter.

Cash is kidding, right? Jeremy Reed isn't an upgrade? ... right??

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 06:22 PM
From ESPN Insider



Cash is kidding, right? Jeremy Reed isn't an upgrade? ... right??

It, at least I think, is a way to get more leverage in the deal.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:28 PM
If Cashman wanted Damon he would've been a Yankee already. Cash is just driving up the price for the BoSox.

You want the Yankees to sign Damon? :uhh: :uhh:

No, I don't. I just have a pretty gut feeling that Damon is going to be wearing a Yankee uniform next year. The only names we've been hearing about the Yankees CFer are Damon, Crosby, Williams, Michaels, and Reed. It seems that Cashman doesn't think Reed is a upgrade over Crosby(:dunno:) and wants Soriano, Mateo, and Putz with him. Not even Seattle is that stupid.

Yankeeah
12-12-05, 06:30 PM
No, I don't. I just have a pretty gut feeling that Damon is going to be wearing a Yankee uniform next year. The only names we've been hearing about the Yankees CFer are Damon, Crosby, Williams, Michaels, and Reed. It seems that Cashman doesn't think Reed is a upgrade over Crosby(:dunno:) and wants Soriano, Mateo, and Putz with him. Not even Seattle is that stupid.

It didn't say Soriano Mateo and Putz with him, it said one of them, or more. I think Cashman is aware of Reeds glove, and I believe, and hope, he is just trying to pretend he is interested to get more for him in the future.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:51 PM
It didn't say Soriano Mateo and Putz with him, it said one of them, or more. I think Cashman is aware of Reeds glove, and I believe, and hope, he is just trying to pretend he is interested to get more for him in the future.

Cashman sure does like to pretend a lot. So far, he is pretending he is confident with Crosby, pretending he doesn't want Reed, pretending he wants Pavano to be the #3 or 4 starter next year, and pretending that Joe Torre isn't going to play Bernie Williams consistantly.

Snatch Catch
12-12-05, 06:57 PM
Cashman sure does like to pretend a lot. So far, he is pretending he is confident with Crosby, pretending he doesn't want Reed, pretending he wants Pavano to be the #3 or 4 starter next year, and pretending that Joe Torre isn't going to play Bernie Williams consistantly.

All of which are acts that could serve to bear very sweet fruit.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 07:01 PM
All of which are acts that could serve to bear very sweet fruit.

Yeah, it's just too bad that he isn't pretending.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 07:03 PM
Cashman sure does like to pretend a lot. So far, he is pretending he is confident with Crosby, pretending he doesn't want Reed, pretending he wants Pavano to be the #3 or 4 starter next year, and pretending that Joe Torre isn't going to play Bernie Williams consistantly.

Not wanting Reed and wanting Crosby is basically the same thing. Lets be honest here Cashman is a smart man, he wont have Crosby as the starting CF

The Pavano thing seems realistic because a lot of teams want SP. If Cash gets a good offer for Pavano he wont turn it down.

The Bernie Williams thing I am worried about but the deal isnt done yet.

I think some people are used to making big moves so fast they arent used to Cash doing the smarter thing. Which is to wait for other teams options to dry and as the other teams options diminish Cash has way more leverage. I think after the next big name SP sign Cash will make a deal.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-12-05, 07:04 PM
Yeah, it's just too bad that he isn't pretending.

I never knew you could read minds. Actually bluffing like Cashman is doing is a very common practiced technique GMs use. Most of the time its not effective though. Lets wait and see what happens before panicking.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 07:13 PM
I never knew you could read minds. Actually bluffing like Cashman is doing is a very common practiced technique GMs use. Most of the time its not effective though. Lets wait and see what happens before panicking.

It obviously isn't very effective. All I am saying is that people are acting like Cashman can do no wrong. Not everything Cashman does is gold. I respect and like Cashman a lot, but I don't agree with him sitting back and pretty much doing nothing. What's our bullpen situation like?

Rivera, Farnsworth, Sturtze, Proctor, Myers, Small, Wright

I am not very comfortable with that at all. Before someone quotes me and says I forgot about J. Brent Cox, I didn't. Cox is a question mark and I'm not sold that he's ML ready.

CF is becoming a bigger issue day by day, it's time to quit bluffing and do some business.

Fabien Brandy
12-12-05, 07:53 PM
I respect and like Cashman a lot, but I don't agree with him sitting back and pretty much doing nothing. What's our bullpen situation like?
I think that Cashman probably noticed that as guys like Matt Morris, Esteban Loaiza and Kenny Rogers get multi-year deals in the range of what Pavano is owed, trading Pavano has gone from an expensive salary dump to divestiture of an asset with value, with which he might be able to fill two holes (CF, bullpen). And you could easily interpret Pavano's appearances as the outcome of Cashman telling him that he'll look into trading him but that if Pavano openly whines then his value declines and the team won't find a deal it'll take. Who knows.

While I think Cashman is 'bluffing' about the Yankee comfort level with Crosby in CF, I think he is being truthful as to his unwillingness to make a deal he doesn't like just to fill that hole.

As to Damon, I think everyone including Cashman knows that Boston is his first choice and that any Yankee offer will first go to the Red Sox to match. By 'pretty much doing nothing' he can wait as to whether Boston (who have a hole in CF) or Damon (who needs some team to sign with) blink first.
If Boston gets tired of negotiating and signs another CFer, Damon's leverage goes down the toilet and the Yanks might get him at closer to their price.

Either way, he's seen Pavano's trade value increase and avoided getting used as leverage by Damon.

YankeePride1967
12-12-05, 08:04 PM
I think that Cashman probably noticed that as guys like Matt Morris, Esteban Loaiza and Kenny Rogers get multi-year deals in the range of what Pavano is owed, trading Pavano has gone from an expensive salary dump to divestiture of an asset with value, with which he might be able to fill two holes (CF, bullpen). And you could easily interpret Pavano's appearances as the outcome of Cashman telling him that he'll look into trading him but that if Pavano openly whines then his value declines and the team won't find a deal it'll take. Who knows.

While I think Cashman is 'bluffing' about the Yankee comfort level with Crosby in CF, I think he is being truthful as to his unwillingness to make a deal he doesn't like just to fill that hole.

As to Damon, I think everyone including Cashman knows that Boston is his first choice and that any Yankee offer will first go to the Red Sox to match. By 'pretty much doing nothing' he can wait as to whether Boston (who have a hole in CF) or Damon (who needs some team to sign with) blink first.
If Boston gets tired of negotiating and signs another CFer, Damon's leverage goes down the toilet and the Yanks might get him at closer to their price.

Either way, he's seen Pavano's trade value increase and avoided getting used as leverage by Damon.

I think fans in general want instant gratification. Get the player we need and get him here yesterday. GMs cannot afford to operate like a fan thinks. And for the reasons you listed above is another reason. As other FA pitchers sign, Pavano's worth increases.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
12-12-05, 10:39 PM
Yeahhhhh, that's the ticket. They thought he was like a pitcher, yeahhhh, that's it. Experts, yeah, the experts'll tell ya. September isn't a part of the regular season. All the experts know that. Crunch time production in the heat of a pennant race with possibly your future as a major league player at stake? I'm sure you'll say the experts should dismiss that out of hand as well. Well, of course we all know you won't be identifying any "experts" who say not to pay attention to any September numbers, particularly those in a pennant race, because you got nothing.Thanks to the people who quoted several experts confirming what I said. As for the rest of this post: If you are an apposing pitcher and Bubba Crosby is up, lets say the count is 2-1 or 3-2, with Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez coming up. Is there any possible way you throw BUBBA CROSBY anything other than a fastball with no chance of missing the strike zone? No, likely not. This is what I meant by the pitcher annalogy.

The only reason logic is ignored with this guy is he "tries hard" and "hustles" and plays with "heart". This is why he was able to stay in the Major leagues even though he isn't deserving. His little Rudy routine kept him around long enough to go on one hot streak and now the world is convinced that the little engine that could is capable of starting in the major leagues. Bubba Crosby is 30. His "future in the major leagues" has been in jepordy several times and he hasn't even had a good Minor League season as a Yankee. As long as he keeps crashing into walls and looking all innocent and goofy he'll keep getting shots, I just wish I didn't have to think about him starting. I'd like him as a player if he was a pinch runner/reserve outfielder who occasionally got a chance to start and do something exciting, but anything more will just bother me.

guidry36
12-12-05, 11:16 PM
Crosby, as the worst case scenario, would be OK. I don't think he will be our opening day CF, but, if he is..... he would be OK as a #9 hitter. The biggest part of the panic for a CF is tradition.....from Bernie to Rivers to ......the Yankees have a long line of great CF. It is very likely that Crosby will be part of a platoon.....or will be the 4th OF. Crosby would make a very good 4th OF.....though Kevin Thompson has more speed and upside. Crosby, should he start, will only be a 1 year option, at most. Melky Cabrera should be given a year to develop before a big-ticket CF is added. Pavano is a better option than any FA starter. Should he be traded, at least it would force Wright to try to actually earn his $$. If Pavano is traded, it CAN be done without throwing in any $$. Reed and a reliever for Pavano is tempting..... Wright would be a question mark, to say the least, as a 5th starter, but would he have any kind of role in the bullpen?? Wright should never have been signed.....but since he was signed....and has zero trade value.............

BennyTheJetRodriguez
12-12-05, 11:31 PM
Crosby, as the worst case scenario, would be OK. I don't think he will be our opening day CF, but, if he is..... he would be OK as a #9 hitter. The biggest part of the panic for a CF is tradition.....from Bernie to Rivers to ......the Yankees have a long line of great CF. It is very likely that Crosby will be part of a platoon.....or will be the 4th OF. Crosby would make a very good 4th OF.....though Kevin Thompson has more speed and upside. Crosby, should he start, will only be a 1 year option, at most. Melky Cabrera should be given a year to develop before a big-ticket CF is added. Pavano is a better option than any FA starter. Should he be traded, at least it would force Wright to try to actually earn his $$. If Pavano is traded, it CAN be done without throwing in any $$. Reed and a reliever for Pavano is tempting..... Wright would be a question mark, to say the least, as a 5th starter, but would he have any kind of role in the bullpen?? Wright should never have been signed.....but since he was signed....and has zero trade value.............
I agree with you about Thompson. If the starting CF has to be a scrub, I want Thompson to get the job over Bubba. What I do dissagree with is that Bubba would be ok. I think he'd be ok deffensively, but hit about .240 with a below .300 on base pct. Hitting ninth makes it ok to be a "not so good" hitter, but not a terrible one. A guy like Reed has been an awful hitter, but atleast has upside and a good track record at other levels. If Pavano could get us him and Soriano I jump all over it. If he could get us Reed and say Putz I probably still do it. I don't think Wright would last very long in the pen.

guidry36
12-12-05, 11:46 PM
Agreed. I think Crosby could hit .260 or so.....but that is pure speculation.....Reed is certainly an upgrade. His 33 doubles and minor league hitting reveal an upside. I think Wright would be buried in the pen....bad idea for $7 mil. a year. If he had another bad year as a starter.....pay the $4 mil. to buy out the last year of his deal and move on. I hope to see Melky Cabrera in CF in 2007.....Thompson for 4th OF.... Crosby for 5th OF. Thompson has blazing speed.....has some power as well. Cabrera has a lot of upside.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
12-12-05, 11:48 PM
In Thompson's first full year I think I remember hearing that he had a cannon too. Was that him or am I mistaken?

guidry36
12-12-05, 11:51 PM
I believe his arm is pretty good......he can play all 3 OF positions. 14 HR 43 steals 45 doubles last year.............

longtimeyankeefan
12-12-05, 11:53 PM
The biggest part of the panic for a CF is tradition.....from Bernie to Rivers to ......the Yankees have a long line of great CF.

Something I do not understand.

Yes, the Yankees have had a long history of great centerfielders - Dimaggio & Mantle being the two most prominent.

However, these two are also the only time that a great Yankee CFer was followed by another.

Mantle was followed as the CFer by that great head of hair - Joe Pepitone
Pepitone was followed by Bobby Murcer - a good Yankee, but not a great
Murcer was followed by Elliott Maddox - a good CFer, but great Yankee CFer?
Maddox was followed by Mickey Rivers - a great CFer, but was he a Yankee great (appearances at OTD, notwithstanding)

My point - why are we worried about getting "the next great Yankee CFer"? We need to concern ourselves with having a viable option in CF for the 2006 season - not the next 12 years.

guidry36
12-13-05, 12:09 AM
Point taken. I don't see Crosby starting in 2006. Cashman has been patient.....but likely will pull the trigger on a deal at some point. Reed and a reliever for Pavano makes sense. Back to Crosby.....I don't view him as a liability....offensively or defensively.....yet understand the posts of those who do. Crosby has no track record...and if the first 7 spots in the lineup weren't so strong, I wouldn't be backing Crosby. With no track record....I can't argue by using statistics....yet it says something that Crosby started games in the playoffs. Don't take this post as a sign I am against an upgrade in CF.....but, if no trade is made.....I think Crosby will have a decent year offensively....and a solid year defensively. If that is the case, judge him after 200 or 300 at bats.

NYDCYankee
12-13-05, 04:21 AM
Yanks plan to keep
Carl - for now

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/374339p-318157c.html


Hurlers like Wang or Shawn Chacon are, obviously, more attractive because they're young and cheap - which is why the Yankees want to hold onto them. Pavano was pursued by a number of teams a year ago before signing with the Yanks, and then suffered through a difficult season in which he made only 17 starts because of a lingering shoulder injury.

The Mariners (and to a lesser extent, the Tigers) are believed to have interest in Pavano, who signed a four-year deal for just under $40 million last winter. Since the Yanks are still waiting to see if Johnny Damon drops his contract demands from seven years to a more reasonable three or four, they could use Pavano as a chip to upgrade their bullpen - they have discussed righty Julio Mateo - instead of asking for Seattle center fielder Jeremy Reed. That has been the much-speculated deal (the Yanks are also looking at free agent relievers, including Julian Tavarez and Rick White).

Now this I don't like. Why is it an either/or for Carl. I would think we could get both for him.

kan_t
12-13-05, 04:58 AM
I don't like this.


As a possible contingency plan if they lose Johnny Damon, the Red Sox have discussed a deal with the Mariners that would involve Matt Clement going to Seattle and center fielder Jeremy Reed coming to Boston, according to a source with direct knowledge of the discussions.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/13/deal_with_mariners_discussed/

I hope Cashman read it and reconsider his interest of Reed. Reed is a good fit for us. Great defence and a high offence upside.

NYDCYankee
12-13-05, 05:06 AM
I don't like this.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/13/deal_with_mariners_discussed/

I hope Cashman read it and reconsider his interest of Reed. Reed is a good fit for us. Great defence and a high offence upside.

So that means Boston would get Reed, Marte and Beckett in one offseason while bringing along Papelbon, Lester and Hansen. That is a pretty dang good young core.

Yankees1962
12-13-05, 05:28 AM
I don't like this.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/13/deal_with_mariners_discussed/

I hope Cashman read it and reconsider his interest of Reed. Reed is a good fit for us. Great defence and a high offence upside.
I don't know what we are reading in newspaper articles is true or not, but if it is then for some reason the Yankees scouts do not think much of Reed. If so then why? Let's discuss his numbers in more depth to understand why would the Yankee scouts not like him as the starting Yankee CF.

NYDCYankee
12-13-05, 05:33 AM
I don't know what we are reading in newspaper articles is true or not, but if it is then for some reason the Yankees scouts do not think much of Reed. If so then why? Let's discuss his numbers in more depth to understand why would the Yankee scouts not like him as the starting Yankee CF.


We have. It is just in several different threads. What it breaks down to is him having outstanding numbers in the minors and a weak rookie season where he hit .254 with 3 hrs but played Gold Glove caliber defense.

Yankees1962
12-13-05, 05:44 AM
We have. It is just in several different threads. What it breaks down to is him having outstanding numbers in the minors and a weak rookie season where he hit .254 with 3 hrs but played Gold Glove caliber defense.
I view defensive stats as questionable in some regards, but do we have anything besides opinion to back up the statement about GG caliber defense?

NYDCYankee
12-13-05, 05:54 AM
I view defensive stats as questionable in some regards, but do we have anything besides opinion to back up the statement about GG caliber defense?

Go to Reed's profile page at Mariners.com they have a bunch of highlights of what he can do in the field. It convinced me.

Yankees1962
12-13-05, 06:05 AM
Go to Reed's profile page at Mariners.com they have a bunch of highlights of what he can do in the field. It convinced me.
I'm not committed to Reed either way, but if he's so good and these newspaper reports are true then why are the Mariners so willing to trade him for Pavano? He's young and inexpensive to their payroll.

mbn007
12-13-05, 07:04 AM
Yeah, it's just too bad that he isn't pretending.
And I am glad about this. Enough with the signings of guys who are past their best years. Enough with high priced gambles. Enough with paying the"Yankee Premium"..Let's change the market. Wait it out. It will bear sweet fruit.

mbn007
12-13-05, 07:12 AM
I'm not committed to Reed either way, but if he's so good and these newspaper reports are true then why are the Mariners so willing to trade him for Pavano? He's young and inexpensive to their payroll.
The obvious question. If this was Chicago, the White Sox have some kids in the upper minors ready to step in, but Reed just stepped in last season??

noneckwilliams
12-13-05, 07:19 AM
I'm not committed to Reed either way, but if he's so good and these newspaper reports are true then why are the Mariners so willing to trade him for Pavano? He's young and inexpensive to their payroll.

The Globe reports today that the RS are exploring a Clement for Reed deal.

flymick24
12-13-05, 07:22 AM
I'm not committed to Reed either way, but if he's so good and these newspaper reports are true then why are the Mariners so willing to trade him for Pavano? He's young and inexpensive to their payroll.

because they're desperate for starting pitching

Yankees1962
12-13-05, 07:28 AM
because they're desperate for starting pitching
I look at their starting staff and I don't understand that type of desperation when they can sign Millwood without giving up a CF that some of you think is so great.

BeantownYankee
12-13-05, 07:55 AM
The Globe reports today that the RS are exploring a Clement for Reed deal.

And most of the discussion on the radio up here in Boston is that the radio guys & fans feel that Clement is worth more than just Reed, so why are we so quick to do a Pavano for Reed swap?

NYDCYankee
12-13-05, 08:14 AM
And most of the discussion on the radio up here in Boston is that the radio guys & fans feel that Clement is worth more than just Reed, so why are we so quick to do a Pavano for Reed swap?


I think Cashman would want more as well.

NewEraYanks2527
12-13-05, 10:18 AM
And most of the discussion on the radio up here in Boston is that the radio guys & fans feel that Clement is worth more than just Reed, so why are we so quick to do a Pavano for Reed swap? I for one would love to have Reed but as I have stated before I would not do Pavano for Reed straight up. The pipe dream would be to get Reed and Rafael Soriano for Pavano and please if you would like I can make you some wacky kool-aid too and send it to Seattle to get this deal done. However I think the Yankees should at least get something pitching wise back, maybe Putz or Mateo but at least one reliever and Reed considering Seattle wanted Pavano and the FA market for SP is thin and expensive. His 3/30 left is probably a bargain considering how much Millwood and Washburn will command.

jcan411
12-13-05, 10:32 AM
And most of the discussion on the radio up here in Boston is that the radio guys & fans feel that Clement is worth more than just Reed, so why are we so quick to do a Pavano for Reed swap?

Both are mistake erasers. Clment was a mistake and would save the sox money. Pavano was a mistake and trading him would save money. Reed is not that good, and I wouold puke in my mouth to have him ou there in center. But, if the money can be spent elsewhere......... Its seems like now it is a race to see what crappy overpriced pitcher the mariners want.

Let's not forget Reed had a wrist injury all of last year that he played with and had surgery on. Wrist injuries are very tricky and can massively change the corse of a hitters career. I think we should pass and let the sox get him....

MTYankee23
12-13-05, 10:37 AM
Addition by Subtraction with a Reed + RP for Pavano trade. Also by adding solid bullpen guys and a cheap young CF, you open the door for more trades down the line. All for the low low price of a grossly overpaid, oft injured 4/5 starter.

Fabien Brandy
12-13-05, 10:47 AM
Addition by Subtraction with a Reed + RP for Pavano trade. Also by adding solid bullpen guys and a cheap young CF, you open the door for more trades down the line. All for the low low price of a grossly overpaid, oft injured 4/5 starter.
I agree with the concept but it appears that Pavano's trade value has gone up in the past couple weeks. Let's see how Cashman handles this.

Yankeeah
12-13-05, 10:52 AM
Reed is not that good, and I wouold puke in my mouth to have him ou there in center.

What are you basing this on, and who would you rather have

jcan411
12-13-05, 11:02 AM
What are you basing this on, and who would you rather have
\
Just about anyone. Reed had a somewhat serious wrist injury, and those are very hard to come back from. why else would they be willing to trade him if hes going to be so good, is paid so little, and is so young??? It makes no sense. I would rather have Crosby, pierre, damon, wilkerson, wilson, etc...

NewEraYanks2527
12-13-05, 12:25 PM
\
Just about anyone. Reed had a somewhat serious wrist injury, and those are very hard to come back from. why else would they be willing to trade him if hes going to be so good, is paid so little, and is so young??? It makes no sense. I would rather have Crosby, pierre, damon, wilkerson, wilson, etc...

Here is some old news on the injury from http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/393619

"Rookie CF Jeremy Reed has a partially torn ligament in his left wrist and will not play the rest of the season. He will have the wrist examined Thursday by a specialist to determine whether he needs surgery. "My gut feeling is I won't have surgery, that it will be a rest thing," said Reed"

It goes on to say under Injury Status "Wrist - Expected to be ready for spring"

Take it for what it's worth.

Clemens831
12-13-05, 12:29 PM
\
Just about anyone. Reed had a somewhat serious wrist injury, and those are very hard to come back from. why else would they be willing to trade him if hes going to be so good, is paid so little, and is so young??? It makes no sense. I would rather have Crosby, pierre, damon, wilkerson, wilson, etc...

It makes plenty of sense when your rotation essentially consists of Jamie Moyer...and several injury prone starters after him. Clearly SP is one of their weaknesses, and their outfield situation is likely a bit less drastic. I'd take Reed off their hands for Pavano in a heartbeat. Thing is, people are completely OVER-VALUING Pavano. He's really not that good - and if we can get a quality, cheap young outfielder, I say go for it.

wileedog
12-13-05, 01:18 PM
It makes plenty of sense when your rotation essentially consists of Jamie Moyer...and several injury prone starters after him.

I guess what I'm having trouble with how adding yet another injury prone starter helps them out in this regard.

ieddyi
12-13-05, 01:48 PM
Here is some old news on the injury from http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/393619

"Rookie CF Jeremy Reed has a partially torn ligament in his left wrist and will not play the rest of the season. He will have the wrist examined Thursday by a specialist to determine whether he needs surgery. "My gut feeling is I won't have surgery, that it will be a rest thing," said Reed"

It goes on to say under Injury Status "Wrist - Expected to be ready for spring"

Take it for what it's worth.

Ooops.

It was a wrist injury that essentially started Nomars career on the downslide. IT killed Loretta last year also

NewEraYanks2527
12-13-05, 02:18 PM
Ooops.

It was a wrist injury that essentially started Nomars career on the downslide. IT killed Loretta last year also
Could be. Of course Nomar also had an achilles injury and that is probably unrelated to the wrist injuryt and achilles is one of the worst injuries to have. I'm just providing the information, I'm not a doctor so I don't know how big a deal this wrist injury could be.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-13-05, 02:39 PM
So that means Boston would get Reed, Marte and Beckett in one offseason while bringing along Papelbon, Lester and Hansen. That is a pretty dang good young core.

The chances of all of them panning out is slim.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-13-05, 02:47 PM
I guess what I'm having trouble with how adding yet another injury prone starter helps them out in this regard.

Pavano's perceived value imo is considerably higher than his actual value.

If the Red Sox get Reed they made their organization a lot better this offseason

Minus:
Renteria
Mueller
Millar
Hanley
Sanchez
MIrabelli
lowlevel prospect
Clement

Add:
Beckett
Loretta
Lowell
Marte
Reed

If Reed goes our only 3 options left are Bernie, Crosby and Damon

Damon will get at least a 4 year deal and will be Bernie Williams of today in his third year at latest. Bernie is horrible in every aspect of the game. Crosby is average on defense but a MAJOR black hole hitting wise. Reed is a gold glove defender who is young and has hella more upside than Crosby.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-13-05, 02:50 PM
If Reed goes our only 3 options left are Bernie, Crosby and Damon


Yes, because they are the only 3 CFers left in the world, after Reed goes...

goin for 27
12-13-05, 03:47 PM
Ooops.

It was a wrist injury that essentially started Nomars career on the downslide. IT killed Loretta last year also


Loretta was indeed injured, but he did put up a .365 OBP last year. If he is healthy, he will be extremely dangerous.

Also, Garciaparra is 100% recovered from the wrist. It is the Achilles that I would be worried about. Likely fine, but I gotta think that his mobility is permanently diminished at least a little. Love him at 1B though, he would be great. Great subbing elsewhere as well.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-13-05, 03:52 PM
Yes, because they are the only 3 CFers left in the world, after Reed goes...

Besides the 3 I listed and Reed how many realistically available cfs(by that I mean somebody who we have enough to trade for and are decent MLB players) are there?

ieddyi
12-13-05, 04:45 PM
Loretta was indeed injured, but he did put up a .365 OBP last year. If he is healthy, he will be extremely dangerous.

Also, Garciaparra is 100% recovered from the wrist. It is the Achilles that I would be worried about. Likely fine, but I gotta think that his mobility is permanently diminished at least a little. Love him at 1B though, he would be great. Great subbing elsewhere as well.

Nomar's wrist may be as good as it's gonna get, but I remember reading a breakdown that showed that his power was reduced greatly after the wrist injury and before he injured his groin. Once he came back last year, he actually didn't hit too badly. I think he would be a great pick up