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Yanks Lifer
12-19-05, 10:48 AM
I don't know... I think Boras is sly and slippery enough to make the Red Sox give him a fifth year. I certainly don't think the Yankees will fall for it. They will offer Damon 4 years / 44-46 million (maybe not all guaranteed). But truly, I think the Yankees have their eyes on Hunter or Jones, both of which are free agents after the upcoming season.... (I think they are).

Jones is signed through 2007 and I believe the Twins have an option on Hunter after 2006.

effdamets
12-19-05, 10:49 AM
I disagree. It seems fairly clear that Damon's two suitors are the Sox and Yanks so he is still in the driver's seat. If say the Sox go out tomorrow and deal for Jeremy Reed for CF having internally resigned themselves to the fact that Damon will not be back, that leaves the Yanks. Then IMO, the Yanks are in the driver's seat. I think it's in Damon's best interest to get the best deal he can from the Sox or Yanks ASAP.
I thought the Dodgers were looking for a CF'er also, no? So he would have that option too....

Yanks Lifer
12-19-05, 10:51 AM
I thought the Dodgers were looking for a CF'er also, no? So he would have that option too....

I thought I read that the Dodgers are out and will sign Lofton for CF.

effdamets
12-19-05, 10:54 AM
I thought I read that the Dodgers are out and will sign Lofton for CF.
Could be... Then if that is the case, Damon will be sort of 'stuck', like you say. Very good point....

You know, it would be lovely to see Boras' strategy backfire in his face, just once....

Yanks Lifer
12-19-05, 10:57 AM
Could be... Then if that is the case, Damon will be sort of 'stuck', like you say. Very good point....

You know, it would be lovely to see Boras' strategy backfire in his face, just once....

Isn't that kind of what happened to Millwood a few years ago resulting in him accepting arb and getting a one year deal?

Also, look where Bengie Molina is now. I don't know if he had any solid offers he turned down, but the teams I can think of in need of a catcher (Mets, Angels, Astros, Orioles) have filled there need. So what's left for Bengie to do?

Snatch Catch
12-19-05, 11:01 AM
Could be... Then if that is the case, Damon will be sort of 'stuck', like you say. Very good point....

You know, it would be lovely to see Boras' strategy backfire in his face, just once....


Not likely. This is the guy that got Varitek 4/40 last year with no real market.

effdamets
12-19-05, 11:04 AM
Isn't that kind of what happened to Millwood a few years ago resulting in him accepting arb and getting a one year deal?

Also, look where Bengie Molina is now. I don't know if he had any solid offers he turned down, but the teams I can think of in need of a catcher (Mets, Angels, Astros, Orioles) have filled there need. So what's left for Bengie to do?
Well, sometimes you can't blame a guy for going out there to see what he is worth. But, that comes with consequences. Molina for instance, if he started to publicly complain, then I'd tear him a new one, but, if he realizes that the path he chose had a severe downside, then I'm OK with it....

Boras does this all the time with his marquee guys. And just once, I'd love to see a guy like Damon, be forced into a contract. Something like 3/25, because of his greediness... (or because the market finally corrects itself)

DJ27
12-19-05, 11:17 AM
I disagree. It seems fairly clear that Damon's two suitors are the Sox and Yanks so he is still in the driver's seat. If say the Sox go out tomorrow and deal for Jeremy Reed for CF having internally resigned themselves to the fact that Damon will not be back, that leaves the Yanks. Then IMO, the Yanks are in the driver's seat. I think it's in Damon's best interest to get the best deal he can from the Sox or Yanks ASAP.

So, it will be Damon or Reed in CF for NY. What is better.... Damon/Pavano or Reed? Looking at it like this, I would take Damon and a 4 year deal.

Kulish29
12-19-05, 11:23 AM
So, it will be Damon or Reed in CF for NY. What is better.... Damon/Pavano or Reed? Looking at it like this, I would take Damon and a 4 year deal.

I dont really think you can narrow it down to those two. There is still a lot of time left here and we havent seen the NT's yet.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say they Yankees make a trade with the Rangers for Wilkerson or Matthews Jr. Leaning a little more towards Matthews Jr. because they'd probably want to keep Wilkerson.

DJ27
12-19-05, 11:25 AM
I dont really think you can narrow it down to those two. There is still a lot of time left here and we havent seen the NT's yet.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say they Yankees make a trade with the Rangers for Wilkerson or Matthews Jr.

Maybe send them Pavano and Proctor for both (throw in Melky if need be)!! Let Sheff DH and Giambi play 1B moving Phillips to Tino's role and Crosby to the bench as our 4th OF. Works for me!

jonnyc39
12-19-05, 11:32 AM
Not likely. This is the guy that got Varitek 4/40 last year with no real market.
Boras' real magic last year was getting Ordonez 5/75. Unreal.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-19-05, 11:34 AM
I don't know... I think Boras is sly and slippery enough to make the Red Sox give him a fifth year. I certainly don't think the Yankees will fall for it. They will offer Damon 4 years / 44-46 million (maybe not all guaranteed). But truly, I think the Yankees have their eyes on Hunter or Jones, both of which are free agents after the upcoming season.... (I think they are).

There were trade rumors of Hunter during the postseason because he sold his house, and the Twins probably can't afford to resign him next year

ComeBackShane47
12-19-05, 11:36 AM
Boras' real magic last year was getting Ordonez 5/75. Unreal.

Especially considering that his only other offers were incentive laden one year deals pretty much

noneckwilliams
12-19-05, 11:51 AM
I don't know... I think Boras is sly and slippery enough to make the Red Sox give him a fifth year. ).

I doubt it. I'm a little surprised they even offered 4. The Sox might move north on the $$$ but they won't saddle themslelves with a 5 year deal.

First one to 5 years gets Damon. How can George resist...

Spiker101
12-19-05, 12:46 PM
Jones is signed through 2007 and I believe the Twins have an option on Hunter after 2006.

That's right, and I'd bet a lot of money the Braves will be looking to extend Andruw sometime this season. Unless by some miracle the Twins stay in the pennant race, they'll shop Torii at mid-season. Unfortunately, I don't think the Yanks have enough to get him, and in any case, Hunter won't be a bit less expensive that Damon. The Yanks are to put it bluntly in a box vis a vis the centerfield. Hate to open old wounds, but the Beltran decision was some decision.

Yankees1962
12-19-05, 12:48 PM
That's right, and I'd bet a lot of money the Braves will be looking to extend Andruw sometime this season. Unless by some miracle the Twins stay in the pennant race, they'll shop Torii at mid-season. Unfortunately, I don't think the Yanks have enough to get him, and in any case, Hunter won't be a bit less expensive that Damon. The Yanks are to put it bluntly in a box vis a vis the centerfield. Hate to open old wounds, but the Beltran decision was some decision.
It was still the right decision based on the amount of money Beltran signed for.

Spiker101
12-19-05, 12:49 PM
You know, it would be lovely to see Boras' strategy backfire in his face, just once....

Go ahead, start holding your breath.:)

effdamets
12-19-05, 12:50 PM
It was still the right decision based on the amount of money Beltran signed for.
I have to agree here. Carlos, although a nice player, is NOT worth the 15mil he signed for.

Yankees1962
12-19-05, 12:51 PM
Go ahead, start holding your breath.:)
It already backfired with Millwood about 2-3 years ago.

effdamets
12-19-05, 12:51 PM
Go ahead, start holding your breath.:)
Well, I'm not.... But you must admit, it would be fun to see....??? Don't you think?

Spiker101
12-19-05, 01:03 PM
Well, I'm not.... But you must admit, it would be fun to see....??? Don't you think?

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see it, too. But it's not going to happen, with Damon, with Boston and the Yanks desperately needing a centerfielder.

YankeeFan1
12-19-05, 01:06 PM
At this point, the Yankees just need to hope that Melky can depend as a dependable centerfielder by 2007. I just don't see that there is any other reasonable way to solve the centerfield problem.

Tifoso
12-19-05, 01:07 PM
At this point, the Yankees just need to hope that Melky can depend as a dependable centerfielder by 2007. I just don't see that there is any other reasonable way to solve the centerfield problem.

It depends

Spiker101
12-19-05, 01:16 PM
I have to agree here. Carlos, although a nice player, is NOT worth the 15mil he signed for.

There are cogent arguments to be made on both sides of the debate. And they've been made, ad nauseam, probably. Still, I wonder. Do you ever wonder how the Yanks would have fared in '05 if they'd had Beltran all season? Would he have been worth just one more victory, which would have given the Yanks home field against the Angels? Or even maybe five wins that would have put them past the White Sox, and allowed Torre to set up his rotation. And would home field have been enough to overcome the Angels? And if they had gotten past the Angels, how far could they have gone? Would they have won the World Series? And how much is a World Series win worth? Is it worth the $3 million-$4 million Beltran is being paid beyond his actual value as a player? Ohmmmmm. Ohmmmmm. Excuse me now. I have to go burn some incense.:):)

mvavra1
12-19-05, 02:08 PM
Especially considering that his only other offers were incentive laden one year deals pretty much

It just goes to show you there are a lot of really dumb and desperate teams that will do anything to make a splash in the FA market when they really don't need to. Detroit did that just to show people they were willing to spend money, and now look at that contract, who would want it. My only hope is that George doesn't get desperate to show that he's still willing to spend money and go out and overpay for Damon.

stephsamps
12-19-05, 02:46 PM
It already backfired with Millwood about 2-3 years ago.

And one can argue it backfired with AROD and Pudge. He certainly gets his clients the payday, but at what cost. AROD did not want to be in Texas and I certainly can't believe that Pudge or Mags wanted Detroit. I really wish there were more players that would stand up to him and say, I really want to play/stay here (like Bernie has done). He really is such a drain on this sport.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-19-05, 02:52 PM
And one can argue it backfired with AROD and Pudge. He certainly gets his clients the payday, but at what cost. AROD did not want to be in Texas and I certainly can't believe that Pudge or Mags wanted Detroit. I really wish there were more players that would stand up to him and say, I really want to play/stay here (like Bernie has done). He really is such a drain on this sport.

Stand up to him? They aren't 7 years old, they make their own decisions. The players have the final decision on where they want to play, Boras doesn't tell them where to play. What he does (very well) is getting teams interested and make them overpay....

prcyankee
12-19-05, 02:54 PM
As I said over in the Reed thread, I think now that the Red Sox are talking to Seattle about a Clement for Reed swap it may be an indication that they think there chance of retaining Damon is dwindling.
Trading Reed is a mistake which means it will likely happen.
:-whistle-:-whistle-

Zimmers' Helmet
12-19-05, 03:21 PM
There are cogent arguments to be made on both sides of the debate. And they've been made, ad nauseam, probably. Still, I wonder. Do you ever wonder how the Yanks would have fared in '05 if they'd had Beltran all season? Would he have been worth just one more victory, which would have given the Yanks home field against the Angels? Or even maybe five wins that would have put them past the White Sox, and allowed Torre to set up his rotation. And would home field have been enough to overcome the Angels? And if they had gotten past the Angels, how far could they have gone? Would they have won the World Series? And how much is a World Series win worth? Is it worth the $3 million-$4 million Beltran is being paid beyond his actual value as a player? Ohmmmmm. Ohmmmmm. Excuse me now. I have to go burn some incense.:):)

Although Beltran had a poor season by his standards in 2005, the Yankees failure to sign him is a mistake which will continue to haunt this team for quite a while.

Definately a better investment than Randy Johnson.

Wang's Groundballs
12-19-05, 03:34 PM
And one can argue it backfired with AROD and Pudge. He certainly gets his clients the payday, but at what cost. AROD did not want to be in Texas and I certainly can't believe that Pudge or Mags wanted Detroit. I really wish there were more players that would stand up to him and say, I really want to play/stay here (like Bernie has done). He really is such a drain on this sport.

You don't think A-Rod or Pudge could have done that? They wanted the money. Plain and simple. If they didn't I doubt they would have Scott Boras as their agent.

JeffWeaverFan
12-19-05, 03:40 PM
Don't you guys remember this old thing? :P



http://www.mlb4u.com/top50.html

:o
6 years? This guy is a joke.

JeffWeaverFan
12-19-05, 03:49 PM
I really hope that 5/53 deal is not true... Signing Damon to 4 years, let alone 5, would make me sick.

YankeeFan1
12-19-05, 04:09 PM
What worries me is that the media makes the Yankees sound serious about Damon. I thought they were just in it to drive up the price for the Red Sox. They better not be offering Damon a 5 year contract.

flymick24
12-19-05, 04:13 PM
What worries me is that the media makes the Yankees sound serious about Damon. I thought they were just in it to drive up the price for the Red Sox. They better not be offering Damon a 5 year contract.

as cashman would say, the yankees are "engaging everyone in the FA market"... and that means damon too.

if nothing is available via trade and the sox end up passing on damon, expect to see him in the bronx :barf:

38Special
12-19-05, 04:23 PM
What worries me is that the media makes the Yankees sound serious about Damon. I thought they were just in it to drive up the price for the Red Sox. They better not be offering Damon a 5 year contract.
I havent seen anything really serious about Damon besides hilarious rumors from UNNAMED SOURCES

AMYanks
12-19-05, 04:41 PM
Cashman would smack the holy bejesus out of Steinbrenner before he allows him to give Damon 5 years.

YankeePride1967
12-19-05, 04:45 PM
Cashman would smack the holy bejesus out of Steinbrenner before he allows him to give Damon 5 years.

If the announcement in the coming days is "Yanks sign Damon for 5/55" I will be convinced Brian Cashman isn't as in charge as we thought.

JfromJersey
12-19-05, 04:48 PM
Cashman would smack the holy bejesus out of Steinbrenner before he allows him to give Damon 5 years.

I'm trying to picture in my mind Cashman smacking the holy bejesus out of Steinbrenner.

ComeBackShane47
12-19-05, 04:49 PM
Although Beltran had a poor season by his standards in 2005, the Yankees failure to sign him is a mistake which will continue to haunt this team for quite a while.

Definately a better investment than Randy Johnson.


You are correct in every way, except that it wasnt Johnson or Beltran it was Beltran or Pavano and Wright, how on earth they chose Pavano and Wright over Beltran blows me away, I mean the stupidity of the front office is outstanding, if they sign Damon for 5 years it only shows that no matter how much money you have you can't buy brains.

38Special
12-19-05, 05:00 PM
Because Beltran wasnt worth the price tag and we needed pitching. I dont see whats so confusing about it. Pavano and Wright were some of the best options on the market.

ComeBackShane47
12-19-05, 05:11 PM
Because Beltran wasnt worth the price tag and we needed pitching. I dont see whats so confusing about it. Pavano and Wright were some of the best options on the market.

Just becuse something is better than the other optiosn, does not make it a good fit. Quite simply, I dont think there is anyone here that wouldn't trade Pavano and Wright for Beltran, yet when the Yanks had the option last season to do exactly that deal they passed.

Anyone with an understanding of baseball, certianlly less than the understanding required ot be a GM, could have told you that both Wright and Pavano would not fair well and were way over paid, yet the Yankees decided that they were more valuable than Beltran and are paying for it now, and will pay for it when they have to give big money or big prospects for a CF this year. Bringing this back to Damon, the only way to tear him away from the Sox is to offer him more years or more money, now if you take the money the Yanks would pay him, add Pavano's $40 million and Wrights $15, you are getting close to what Beltran would have signed for last year.

Can't dwell on the past, must look toward the future, and never make a mistake like that again.

JeffWeaverFan
12-19-05, 05:20 PM
Because Beltran wasnt worth the price tag and we needed pitching. I dont see whats so confusing about it. Pavano and Wright were some of the best options on the market.
Defense and pitching go hand in hand. Without defense, the pitching will suffer greatly.

Pavano was one of the best options, but Wright surely was not.

38Special
12-19-05, 06:05 PM
Defense and pitching go hand in hand. Without defense, the pitching will suffer greatly.

Pavano was one of the best options, but Wright surely was not.
Wright had a injury history, but thats all he had going against him. His numbers were equal to Clement's with a great K-Rate and ERA, and did not wear down at the end of the season like Clement.

Once again, we cannot have our hand be forced because other teams want to overspend. Giving Beltran 18 a year for SEVEN YEARS would be an epic mistake. I blame Cashman for not getting a better centerfielder than Bernie prior to 05, but not getting Beltran is more than understandable.


Just becuse something is better than the other optiosn, does not make it a good fit. Quite simply, I dont think there is anyone here that wouldn't trade Pavano and Wright for Beltran, yet when the Yanks had the option last season to do exactly that deal they passed.
I wouldnt trade them for him. Thats two starting pitchers, albeit with bad seasons for ONE center fielder who also had a ................ty year too.



add Pavano's $40 million and Wrights $15, you are getting close to what Beltran would have signed for last year.
.

Yeah you're off by about 60 million but thats okay.


Let's say we give Beltran all of that money instead of signing those two starting pitchers. Our rotation to start 05 would have been

RJ
Brown
Mussina
.....

Chacon wasnt available then, and perhaps Wang could have started the year, but as the 4th best guy on the staff? Then who? Tanyon Sturtze?

Yanks Lifer
12-19-05, 08:49 PM
Damon or no Damon, if anyone is registered on the NYYNews forums, please go over to the Damon and Crisp threads and tell them THE YANKS ARE NOT GETTING GRADY SIZEMORE!!!!! Not for Pavano, Wang or whoever! The Indians aren't run by Johnny Dumbasaboxorocks! :giveup:

noneckwilliams
12-19-05, 09:38 PM
If the announcement in the coming days is "Yanks sign Damon for 5/55" I will be convinced Brian Cashman isn't as in charge as we thought.


Cashman would smack the holy bejesus out of Steinbrenner before he allows him to give Damon 5 years.

It's still George's team. Cash will not make the call on this one. I think what bothers Cash is when people like Levine or Emslie or Connors are allowed to make personnel decisions thru Steinbrenner. It's like in Boston - what pisses Theo off is Lucchino mucking around on the personnel side - but if John Henry decides he either wants or doesn't want to make a particular move, then Theo has to abide.

In a case like this (Damon) it will come down to what George wants and Cash can't complain because it's George's team. I'm hoping it turns out differently, but using the past as a guide there is little to suggest that GS will be able to resist signing Damon.

ComeBackShane47
12-19-05, 09:54 PM
Wright had a injury history, but thats all he had going against him. His numbers were equal to Clement's with a great K-Rate and ERA, and did not wear down at the end of the season like Clement.

Once again, we cannot have our hand be forced because other teams want to overspend. Giving Beltran 18 a year for SEVEN YEARS would be an epic mistake. I blame Cashman for not getting a better centerfielder than Bernie prior to 05, but not getting Beltran is more than understandable.


I wouldnt trade them for him. Thats two starting pitchers, albeit with bad seasons for ONE center fielder who also had a ................ty year too.



Yeah you're off by about 60 million but thats okay.


Let's say we give Beltran all of that money instead of signing those two starting pitchers. Our rotation to start 05 would have been

RJ
Brown
Mussina
.....

Chacon wasnt available then, and perhaps Wang could have started the year, but as the 4th best guy on the staff? Then who? Tanyon Sturtze?


What I dont get is how you can justify spending over $60 million for two guys who combined last year ptiched 160 innings, allowed 96 earned runs, and went 9-11. Lots of good stuff to look forward to. Had the Yankees had two leage average pitchers, they would have won the east by a few games instead of by default, and thats not taking into account they would have had a much better center fielder. The truth is Pavano, and I like the guy, is only as good as the defense behind him, and his low stirke out ratio and his high flyball ratio, dont translate well into the AL. Wright whose two good years bookened 6 terrible ones, also was a terrible bet to repeat his performance. This is not stuff of geniouses. Sure the Yanks would need to find two more ptichers to fill out last years rotation, but lets remember that they hardly contributed as is, and what they did was miserable Certainly there were better options than Pavano and Wright, and certainly the money spent would have been better spent on a centerfielder who would man the position for years to come.

Also, assuming the yankees signed Beltran, they would have drafted Craig Hansen instead of CJ Henry, which would only help the bullpen in the immediate future. Its a trickle down effect by not signing Beltran that put this franchise back a few years.

Lastly, when you told me i was off by 60 million, i was counting the 50 million it would cost to sign damon, so its pretty much a wash, and if you ask me Pavano and Wright for Beltran would be an amazing move, one the Mets or any team would never in a million years make...except the Yankees. What Cashman and the Yanks need to learn from this mistake and not miss the boat on players.

ieddyi
12-19-05, 10:08 PM
What I dont get is how you can justify spending over $60 million for two guys who combined last year ptiched 160 innings, allowed 96 earned runs, and went 9-11. Lots of good stuff to look forward to. Had the Yankees had two leage average pitchers, they would have won the east by a few games instead of by default, and thats not taking into account they would have had a much better center fielder. The truth is Pavano, and I like the guy, is only as good as the defense behind him, and his low stirke out ratio and his high flyball ratio, dont translate well into the AL. Wright whose two good years bookened 6 terrible ones, also was a terrible bet to repeat his performance. This is not stuff of geniouses. Sure the Yanks would need to find two more ptichers to fill out last years rotation, but lets remember that they hardly contributed as is, and what they did was miserable Certainly there were better options than Pavano and Wright, and certainly the money spent would have been better spent on a centerfielder who would man the position for years to come.

Also, assuming the yankees signed Beltran, they would have drafted Craig Hansen instead of CJ Henry, which would only help the bullpen in the immediate future. Its a trickle down effect by not signing Beltran that put this franchise back a few years.

Lastly, when you told me i was off by 60 million, i was counting the 50 million it would cost to sign damon, so its pretty much a wash, and if you ask me Pavano and Wright for Beltran would be an amazing move, one the Mets or any team would never in a million years make...except the Yankees. What Cashman and the Yanks need to learn from this mistake and not miss the boat on players.


Pleeeeeease stop the insanity.

As you stated yourself, if it hadn't been Pavano and Wright, it would have been Clement and another mediocre pitcher

Beltran sucked last year and is extremely overpaid. For whatever the reason it was a great move to pass on him. 6 year contracts?/ How many of those have paid off??

We passed on hansen because we got Cox form Texas who many scouts say could have a brighter future ans wasn't a Boras client

We should ahve had an alternative in CF, true, but spending that amount of cash over that number of years for a player of Beltrans caliber is insanity.
When will the Beltran groupies ever stop??

RhodeyYankee2638
12-19-05, 10:13 PM
6 years? This guy is a joke.

He had BJ Ryan going for 4/20. He was a tad bit off

NelsonMuntz
12-19-05, 10:23 PM
When will the Beltran groupies ever stop??
When we have a real centerfielder.

Yankees1962
12-19-05, 10:29 PM
It's still George's team. Cash will not make the call on this one. I think what bothers Cash is when people like Levine or Emslie or Connors are allowed to make personnel decisions thru Steinbrenner. It's like in Boston - what pisses Theo off is Lucchino mucking around on the personnel side - but if John Henry decides he either wants or doesn't want to make a particular move, then Theo has to abide.

In a case like this (Damon) it will come down to what George wants and Cash can't complain because it's George's team. I'm hoping it turns out differently, but using the past as a guide there is little to suggest that GS will be able to resist signing Damon.
If the Yankees do resist and don't sign him then what do you think?

ryanthe13th
12-19-05, 10:32 PM
Is it really outlandish to assume that Cashman is interested in Damon?

ComeBackShane47
12-19-05, 10:49 PM
When we have a real centerfielder.

exactly

Spiker101
12-20-05, 12:48 AM
[QUOTE=ieddyi]

6 year contracts?/ How many of those have paid off??

QUOTE]

Chipper Jones will be in the final year of his six-year deal. How's that one working out?
Andruw Jones will be in the fifth year of his six-year deal. You hear any complaints about that one--other than from Yankees fans who wish he played for us.
Jim Edmonds will wrapping up his six-year deal in '06. Somehow he's still hanging on.
Even Piazza, who had a seven-year deal, faded badly in last year, but all things considered it turned out to be a good investment overall.
What are the odds that the Cards are going to live to regreat Pujols' contract. The Yanks' Jeter's or ARod's. The Tejada deal? Even Manny's contract cumbersome as it is and as looney as he is, has worked just fine so far.

It's a myth that these deals never work out.

Kulish29
12-20-05, 12:55 AM
6 years? This guy is a joke.

The best thing was he had the Yankees desperatley wanting to sign Jamie Moyer and would sign him for 9 mil.

Yankeeah
12-20-05, 01:58 AM
Chipper Jones will be in the final year of his six-year deal. How's that one working out?

Chipper Jones was 27 when he signed that contract, Damon would be 32 at the begining of his deal.



Andruw Jones will be in the fifth year of his six-year deal. You hear any complaints about that one--other than from Yankees fans who wish he played for us

Andruw signed that contract when he was 22, Damon would be 32 at the begining of his deal.


Jim Edmonds will wrapping up his six-year deal in '06. Somehow he's still hanging on

Jim was 31 when he signed that contract, and was better then, than Damon is now.


Even Piazza, who had a seven-year deal, faded badly in last year, but all things considered it turned out to be a good investment overall

Steve Phillips gave him that deal. Nothing else needs to be said.


What are the odds that the Cards are going to live to regreat Pujols' contract. The Yanks' Jeter's or ARod's. The Tejada deal? Even Manny's contract cumbersome as it is and as looney as he is, has worked just fine so far.

Pujols is a much better player than Damon, not even close. Pujols is young and may not have even peaked yet. Damon, almost certaintly has peaked. The Yankees didn't sign A-Rod to that contract, Texas did, and will be paying for it for many years to come. Considering Tejadas skill and the current market, he has a pretty good contract. Manny's deal has not worked out fine, how many times has Boston tried to get rid of it?

There is a chance that Damon could still be good in 6 years, but judging by his steep decline in defense since being introduced to Damien Jacksons forhead, not to mention his arm strength, or lack thereof, he will not be that good anymore. 6 years is a huge risk, one that I would be deeply dissapointed if this organization made. I would seriously question the people in charge if such a deal was made.

Spiker101
12-20-05, 02:20 AM
There is a chance that Damon could still be good in 6 years, but judging by his steep decline in defense since being introduced to Damien Jacksons forhead, not to mention his arm strength, or lack thereof, he will not be that good anymore. 6 years is a huge risk, one that I would be deeply dissapointed if this organization made. I would seriously question the people in charge if such a deal was made.

Nobody in their right mind is going to give Damon six years. The only way you'd give him five years is if you're very, very desperate and without realistic hope of acquiring a decent centerfielder through '07. (Sound familiar?)
My post was addressing the specific contention that few six-year deals work out. Some don't, some do. The key seems to be age, as I think you agree.

NYDCYankee
12-20-05, 02:22 AM
Looks like Reed will go to the loser (winner?) of the Damon sweepstakes.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2002693075_marinotes20.html


Even with Jarrod Washburn in the rotation, the Mariners are still in the trade market for another starting pitcher.

And while outfielder Jeremy Reed may be the leading candidate to go in any deal, the Boston Red Sox aren't the only possible destination.

An industry source maintains that the New York Yankees are another possible trading partner.

"Watch the situation with Johnny Damon," the source said. "Seattle could wind up trading Reed to the club that doesn't get Damon to play center."

Damon, represented by agent Scott Boras, is known to have been offered $40 million over four years to return to Boston, far short of the $66 million over seven years he is said to have expected. But New York, seemingly in need of an upgrade over Bubba Crosby in center, has not been involved in talks yet of any significance.

Weeks ago, the Yankees reportedly claimed they rated Crosby no worse than on a par with Reed, so trade talks were downplayed.

However, there is some viability to a Mariners-Yankees swap, although Seattle's need for rotation help would not seem a fit with New York.

Yet a second source said that Seattle, even with Washburn getting $37.5 million over four years, might be willing to take on a pitcher with a sizeable salary.

That could be the Red Sox's Matt Clement or the Yankees' Carl Pavano. But more to the Mariners' liking and payroll situation would be the Red Sox's Bronson Arroyo, who made $1.85 million in 2005 and is not eligible for free agency for three more seasons, or the Yankees' Chien-Ming Wang, who was a rookie in 2005.

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 02:51 AM
Wright had a injury history, but thats all he had going against him. His numbers were equal to Clement's with a great K-Rate and ERA, and did not wear down at the end of the season like Clement.

Once again, we cannot have our hand be forced because other teams want to overspend. Giving Beltran 18 a year for SEVEN YEARS would be an epic mistake. I blame Cashman for not getting a better centerfielder than Bernie prior to 05, but not getting Beltran is more than understandable.

His K rate was worse than Clements and the fact that he had one good season under Leo Mazzone also should have worked against him. Pretty much, I was shocked that he got that kind of deal.

Beltran was offered to us for a 6/$100 million before he signed with the Mets. At 28 years old, I don't think that's too bad of a deal in terms of the years. Obviously, his 2005 season does not help my argument but I'd be shocked if he didn't drastically improve next season - plus he would have helped being in the Yankee lineup and in Yankee Stadium.

Yankees1962
12-20-05, 02:58 AM
His K rate was worse than Clements and the fact that he had one good season under Leo Mazzone also should have worked against him. Pretty much, I was shocked that he got that kind of deal.

Beltran was offered to us for a 6/$100 million before he signed with the Mets. At 28 years old, I don't think that's too bad of a deal in terms of the years. Obviously, his 2005 season does not help my argument but I'd be shocked if he didn't drastically improve next season - plus he would have helped being in the Yankee lineup and in Yankee Stadium.
I don't care if we shove "old man river" out to play CF, there is no way in today's economics that I would pay Beltran 16.7M per season.

noneckwilliams
12-20-05, 04:55 AM
If the Yankees do resist and don't sign him then what do you think?

That would be a great Christmas present. The restraint and resolve that Cash has shown since the beginning of last season has been a little frustrating (for some) but will pay dividends in the long run. In time the "blacklist" I believe the Yankees are on in terms of trading partners will thaw and they will be able to get equal value from their trades.

There's a time to give out 5 year contracts (I would have overpaid for Beltran last winter because of the timing and the realization that filling CF would be an ongoing problem) - but this isn't one of them.

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 06:57 AM
Is it really outlandish to assume that Cashman is interested in Damon?

at 3-4 years, no. at 5-6 years, yes.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 07:06 AM
That would be a great Christmas present. The restraint and resolve that Cash has shown since the beginning of last season has been a little frustrating (for some) but will pay dividends in the long run. In time the "blacklist" I believe the Yankees are on in terms of trading partners will thaw and they will be able to get equal value from their trades.

There's a time to give out 5 year contracts (I would have overpaid for Beltran last winter because of the timing and the realization that filling CF would be an ongoing problem) - but this isn't one of them.


Agree 100% here.

aeromac76
12-20-05, 07:14 AM
Looks like Reed will go to the loser (winner?) of the Damon sweepstakes.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2002693075_marinotes20.html

I am just not high on Reed. I think he is decent, but if you ask me, Bubba playing most days and Bernie spelling him occasionally will likely give us close to the offense and with Bubba, close to the defense, Reed can provide. I do think Reed is an upgrade, but not a big one, and thus I would not deal Pavano for him.
And if the Yankees even think about dealing Wang for him I'll find some sand and put my head in it for a few years..

NelsonMuntz
12-20-05, 08:51 AM
His K rate was worse than Clements and the fact that he had one good season under Leo Mazzone also should have worked against him. Pretty much, I was shocked that he got that kind of deal.

Beltran was offered to us for a 6/$100 million before he signed with the Mets. At 28 years old, I don't think that's too bad of a deal in terms of the years. Obviously, his 2005 season does not help my argument but I'd be shocked if he didn't drastically improve next season - plus he would have helped being in the Yankee lineup and in Yankee Stadium.
I agree completely.

flymick24
12-20-05, 09:05 AM
I am just not high on Reed. I think he is decent, but if you ask me, Bubba playing most days and Bernie spelling him occasionally will likely give us close to the offense and with Bubba, close to the defense, Reed can provide. I do think Reed is an upgrade, but not a big one, and thus I would not deal Pavano for him.
And if the Yankees even think about dealing Wang for him I'll find some sand and put my head in it for a few years..

reed's minor league stats are light years better than bubba's. while both don't hit for much power, reed's numbers translate to him at least being able to hit for average on the major league level, which i suspect he'll be doing on a consistent basis come next year. he is a better player than bubba by a lot.

and bernie ideally shouldn't be getting more than 100 AB's. he can barely hit his weight.

BronxByTheBay
12-20-05, 09:12 AM
We should ahve had an alternative in CF, true, but spending that amount of cash over that number of years for a player of Beltrans caliber is insanity.
When will the Beltran groupies ever stop??

Give it another mediocre-to-okay season. The diehards will insist he would have performed differently for the Yankees via magic, but at least the chatter will cease for the most part.

rajah
12-20-05, 09:14 AM
reed's minor league stats are light years better than bubba's. while both don't hit for much power, reed's numbers translate to him at least being able to hit for average on the major league level, which i suspect he'll be doing on a consistent basis come next year. he is a better player than bubba by a lot.

and bernie ideally shouldn't be getting more than 100 AB's. he can barely hit his weight.

Bernie is still a much better hitter than Bubba is or ever will be. Check the OPS from last year. Bernie's defense is a negative, of course, and his offense does not warrant signing him as an every day DH, but let's not exaggerate. And there is reason to hope that Bernie can produce better in a limited role. It may be only a hope, but so is the suggestion that Crosby can blossom as a hitter at his age.

BronxByTheBay
12-20-05, 09:14 AM
Because Beltran wasnt worth the price tag and we needed pitching. I dont see whats so confusing about it. Pavano and Wright were some of the best options on the market.

Thank you. When assessing last off-season, people tend to forget that it's not like our choices for pitching were between Johan Santana and Carl Pavano or Ben Sheets and Jaret Wright. I think considering the market, we did the best we could have under the circumstances. The SP market has been terrible and only got worse this off-season. If Pavano bounces back, we're all going to be bowing and scraping before that signing.

MisterNovember
12-20-05, 09:24 AM
Thank you. When assessing last off-season, people tend to forget that it's not like our choices for pitching were between Johan Santana and Carl Pavano or Ben Sheets and Jaret Wright. I think considering the market, we did the best we could have under the circumstances. The SP market has been terrible and only got worse this off-season. If Pavano bounces back, we're all going to be bowing and scraping before that signing.

I agree. However, the case could be made that if the Yanks don't sign Womack or Wright (instead starting the season w/ Cano and Wang), and don't trade Vazquez for RJ, we would have had enough money to make a run at Beltran. HOWEVER, last offseason I wanted no part of Beltran at that price, and after seeing his pathetic 2005 season, I want him even less. As much as people on this board bitched about it, trading for RJ was the smarter move.

BronxByTheBay
12-20-05, 09:26 AM
I agree. However, the case could be made that if the Yanks don't sign Womack or Wright (instead starting the season w/ Cano and Wang), and don't trade Vazquez for RJ, we would have had enough money to make a run at Beltran. HOWEVER, last offseason I wanted no part of Beltran at that price, and after seeing his pathetic 2005 season, I want him even less. As much as people on this board bitched about it, trading for RJ was the smarter move.

Yes, that case could have been made. And as you went on to explain it, it would have still been a bad case. :D

MisterNovember
12-20-05, 09:33 AM
Yes, that case could have been made. And as you went on to explain it, it would have still been a bad case. :D

Ya know, BBTB, I think you me and Dools were the only people on this board who wanted to trade Vazquez. Are there any GM openings available? Maybe we should look into it. :)

ANYWAY, getting back to Damon, I would much prefer to see the Yanks make a move like the rumored Sturtze/Henn for Michaels trade than throw a lot of money at Damon. HOWEVER, if the Sox trade Clement for Reed (who I think is overrated) and Damon could be had cheaper, I wouldn't be upset at signing him to a 4-5 year deal.

38Special
12-20-05, 09:37 AM
Ya know, BBTB, I think you me and Dools were the only people on this board who wanted to trade Vazquez. Are there any GM openings available? Maybe we should look into it. :)

ANYWAY, getting back to Damon, I would much prefer to see the Yanks make a move like the rumored Sturtze/Henn for Michaels trade than throw a lot of money at Damon. HOWEVER, if the Sox trade Clement for Reed (who I think is overrated) and Damon could be had cheaper, I wouldn't be upset at signing him to a 4-5 year deal.
I was in favor of the RJ/Vazquez trade as well.

MisterNovember
12-20-05, 09:38 AM
I was in favor of the RJ/Vazquez trade as well.

OK, you're allowed in the club. :)

effdamets
12-20-05, 09:41 AM
Ya know, BBTB, I think you me and Dools were the only people on this board who wanted to trade Vazquez. Are there any GM openings available? Maybe we should look into it. :)



I didn't think there was a human being onthe planet that didn't want to do that deal....

38Special
12-20-05, 09:42 AM
I didn't think there was a human being onthe planet that didn't want to do that deal....
I guess we have alot of aliens on this board. I always thought JavyVazquezIsSick was a little awkward looking.

yanksphan
12-20-05, 09:43 AM
Ya know, BBTB, I think you me and Dools were the only people on this board who wanted to trade Vazquez. Are there any GM openings available? Maybe we should look into it. :)


GROSS understatement! Many of us were calling for his head before the 2004 season trading deadline.

effdamets
12-20-05, 09:43 AM
I guess we have alot of aliens on this board
We must.. Because I thought that trade was a no brainer.

ieddyi
12-20-05, 10:06 AM
Ya know, BBTB, I think you me and Dools were the only people on this board who wanted to trade Vazquez. Are there any GM openings available? Maybe we should look into it. :)

ANYWAY, getting back to Damon, I would much prefer to see the Yanks make a move like the rumored Sturtze/Henn for Michaels trade than throw a lot of money at Damon. HOWEVER, if the Sox trade Clement for Reed (who I think is overrated) and Damon could be had cheaper, I wouldn't be upset at signing him to a 4-5 year deal.


I think the sawx almost have to sign Damon. They have lowered their payroll a bunch this year already. IF they lower it further by passing on Damon and signing a cheaper alternative, they take the risk of alienating fans if the "new" team doesn't perform.
Fans would be upset about a team w/ their resources cutting payroll. You can sabre justify Reed over Damon, but if the team doesn't win, the fans will be up in arms. Especially if they let Manny go also

MisterNovember
12-20-05, 10:07 AM
GROSS understatement! Many of us were calling for his head before the 2004 season trading deadline.

Guys, i was just kidding....

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 10:18 AM
Ya know, BBTB, I think you me and Dools were the only people on this board who wanted to trade Vazquez. Are there any GM openings available? Maybe we should look into it. :)

ANYWAY, getting back to Damon, I would much prefer to see the Yanks make a move like the rumored Sturtze/Henn for Michaels trade than throw a lot of money at Damon. HOWEVER, if the Sox trade Clement for Reed (who I think is overrated) and Damon could be had cheaper, I wouldn't be upset at signing him to a 4-5 year deal.

I think that is a stretch. I was also in favor of the trade but where I was wrong was thinking we gave up anything of value in Vazquez. At the time it was made my opinion was that it was a trade we needed to do, but I hated to give up Javy. Now it's just a good trade.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 10:19 AM
Give it another mediocre-to-okay season. The diehards will insist he would have performed differently for the Yankees via magic, but at least the chatter will cease for the most part.


Are you so sure? Beltran is a rare commodity as we are finding out. Is he worth the price tag? No. But I would say most contracts for star players are inflated.

I was for the Beltran signing last season and after a subpar year, having had a leg injury mind you, I would still support his signing.

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 10:20 AM
As for Beltran, I was on the side of we have to sign him. I was wrong, he is not even close to a $16 million a year player (he would have signed here for 6/100).

BronxByTheBay
12-20-05, 10:27 AM
Are you so sure? Beltran is a rare commodity as we are finding out. Is he worth the price tag? No. But I would say most contracts for star players are inflated.

I was for the Beltran signing last season and after a subpar year, having had a leg injury mind you, I would still support his signing.

Yes, because what we need is yet another awful contract that can't be moved. No thanks.

BronxByTheBay
12-20-05, 10:29 AM
I think the sawx almost have to sign Damon. They have lowered their payroll a bunch this year already. IF they lower it further by passing on Damon and signing a cheaper alternative, they take the risk of alienating fans if the "new" team doesn't perform.
Fans would be upset about a team w/ their resources cutting payroll. You can sabre justify Reed over Damon, but if the team doesn't win, the fans will be up in arms. Especially if they let Manny go also

If they can 86 Epstien, I don't think pleasing the fans is high on Lucchino's priority list.

RobbiMan
12-20-05, 10:31 AM
I think the sawx almost have to sign Damon. They have lowered their payroll a bunch this year already. IF they lower it further by passing on Damon and signing a cheaper alternative, they take the risk of alienating fans if the "new" team doesn't perform.
Fans would be upset about a team w/ their resources cutting payroll. You can sabre justify Reed over Damon, but if the team doesn't win, the fans will be up in arms. Especially if they let Manny go also

It's possible they may alienate 2004 "Fever Pitch" Bandwagon fans, but the old, established, New England base isn't going anywhere. Those fans are supportive of a well run team that may have go through a one year dip in order to achieve long-term success and financial flexibility sometime. Real Red Sox fans take the long view and recognize that the "Win Today" method isn't conducive to a stable franchise.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 10:32 AM
Yes, because what we need is yet another awful contract that can't be moved. No thanks.


Is it a build-in thought now that everytime we sign a player to a deal we need the ability to move him if that player doesn't succed?

ieddyi
12-20-05, 10:36 AM
Are you so sure? Beltran is a rare commodity as we are finding out. Is he worth the price tag? No. But I would say most contracts for star players are inflated.

I was for the Beltran signing last season and after a subpar year, having had a leg injury mind you, I would still support his signing.


Beltran is a rare commodity as we are finding out.

He is ,by ALL defensive metrics, an average defensive player. His offense is good- not stellar.

HIs only rarity is that he parlayed a good postseason into a ridiculous contract. Is it your contention that in the next 6 years, there won't be another CF better than Beltran available?

Leg injuries don't bother Beltran fans--ufb- he just has to show up to be worth 17M/year.

Maybe if he spontaneously combusts , a few of his fans will jump off the bus

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 10:40 AM
[b]Is it your contention that in the next 6 years, there won't be another CF better than Beltran available?

Yes, it is my contention that unless Grady Sizemore becomes a FA, we will not see a CF of Beltrans ability come on the FA market for the next 6 years.

ieddyi
12-20-05, 10:44 AM
It's possible they may alienate 2004 "Fever Pitch" Bandwagon fans, but the old, established, New England base isn't going anywhere. Those fans are supportive of a well run team that may have go through a one year dip in order to achieve long-term success and financial flexibility sometime. Real Red Sox fans take the long view and recognize that the "Win Today" method isn't conducive to a stable franchise.


Those bandwagon fans are the biggest factor in Henry's bottom line. W/o them they wouldn't be raising the ticket prices to the stratosphere. At those prices, they depend on corporate beer guzzlers just as much as hardcore fans. REal red sawx fans aren't enough of a demographic to service their debt and turn the profit Henry is looking for.
Was it the real red sawx fans who were so patient w/ edgar last year? I'm sure the press will just take the long view and give them a pass for a 2-3 year rebuilding period- right?????
IN this case the money is there- they are raising ticket prices again this year. They will lose a lot of the bandwagon fans if the performance drops while they raise rates and lower payroll

Jace
12-20-05, 10:48 AM
Yes, it is my contention that unless Grady Sizemore becomes a FA, we will not see a CF of Beltrans ability come on the FA market for the next 6 years.

What if Andruw Jones hits the market?

ieddyi
12-20-05, 10:48 AM
Yes, it is my contention that unless Grady Sizemore becomes a FA, we will not see a CF of Beltrans ability come on the FA market for the next 6 years.

So, according to you Andrew Jones ( FA next year ) is an inferior CF to Beltran??

NOt to mention unknown CF's who will have breakout years and then become FA's that no one could possibly know now.

The Beltran fixation is almost pathological in it's persistence and complete lack of any factual (statistical ) support

BronxByTheBay
12-20-05, 10:49 AM
Is it a build-in thought now that everytime we sign a player to a deal we need the ability to move him if that player doesn't succed?

No, but it should be a built-in thought by now that long-term contracts to average players only hinder the club.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 10:50 AM
What if Andruw Jones hits the market?

I'd much prefer Beltran to Jones if I had the choice to make.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 10:52 AM
No, but it should be a built-in thought by now that long-term contracts to average players only hinder the club.


Beltran isn't average. If you think so...oh well.

38Special
12-20-05, 10:56 AM
Yes, it is my contention that unless Grady Sizemore becomes a FA, we will not see a CF of Beltrans ability come on the FA market for the next 6 years.

An Average-to-Good defensive center fielder with a career .350 OBP is a rare commodity? The same guy who's hit .265 over the last 2 years? We better trade the house for Jason Michaels then.

HES GOT 5 TOOLS



TOOLS

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 10:57 AM
An Average-to-Good defensive center fielder with a career .350 OBP is a rare commodity? The same guy who's hit .265 over the last 2 years? We better trade the house for Jason Michaels then.

HES GOT 5 TOOLS



TOOLS


Are those the stats you are using today, 38?

I am sure Beltran had a lot of opporunity to draw walks on KC.

Cmon, you know stats go deeper than that. Beltran has ability to draw walks very well.

38Special
12-20-05, 11:02 AM
I posted his career OBP. The fact is that he's sacrificed his batting average for the home runs the past 2 years.

NDBoston
12-20-05, 11:03 AM
Those bandwagon fans are the biggest factor in Henry's bottom line. W/o them they wouldn't be raising the ticket prices to the stratosphere. At those prices, they depend on corporate beer guzzlers just as much as hardcore fans. REal red sawx fans aren't enough of a demographic to service their debt and turn the profit Henry is looking for.
Was it the real red sawx fans who were so patient w/ edgar last year? I'm sure the press will just take the long view and give them a pass for a 2-3 year rebuilding period- right?????
IN this case the money is there- they are raising ticket prices again this year. They will lose a lot of the bandwagon fans if the performance drops while they raise rates and lower payroll

Who said anything about rebuilding? Many Red Sox fans think signing Damon to a 4 year deal is a bad move over trading for Reed or Crisp. John Henry has been very clear on this. He's not going to lower payroll. Signing a player just to keep payroll up is ridiculous.

The Red Sox will sell every ticket for Fenway Park for the foreseeable future with a payroll of 120 to 130 million. That will put the team in contention every year for a playoff spot. It's a baseball town and always has been. Not to mention the fact that Fenway is a tourist atttraction.

When it comes to patience, Red Sox fans are no different than Yankee fans or anyone else when it comes to onfield performance. I'm not sure why that's relevant to the discussion.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 11:05 AM
I posted his career OBP. The fact is that he's sacrificed his batting average for the home runs the past 2 years.


38, I agree 100%. Beltran was going for the home runs in 04. He did post a .389 obp the previous year.

Jace
12-20-05, 11:08 AM
I'd much prefer Beltran to Jones if I had the choice to make.

Andruw Jones's career OPS+ is 116. Beltran's is 109. They are the same age. They are comparable defensively. I have no idea what you are basing this preference of Beltran on.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 11:10 AM
Andruw Jones's career OPS+ is 116. Beltran's is 109. They are the same age. They are comparable defensively. I have no idea what you are basing this preference of Beltran on.


His instincts and his speed.

Jace
12-20-05, 11:13 AM
His instincts and his speed.

So SB and going from 1st to 3rd and such? Andruw Jones seems to have good defensive instincts. I think Beltran will rebound from last year, but I don't think he is more valuable offensively than Jones.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 11:17 AM
So SB and going from 1st to 3rd and such? Andruw Jones seems to have good defensive instincts. I think Beltran will rebound from last year, but I don't think he is more valuable offensively than Jones.


Offensively they are different players. I prefer Beltran because he is a switch hitter can hit for a better average.

Also he would be a much better fit offensively on the Yankees. Much more ideal to bat second. We have enough RH power.

Jace
12-20-05, 11:20 AM
Offensively they are different players. I prefer Beltran because he is a switch hitter can hit for a better average.

Also he would be a much better fit offensively on the Yankees. Much more ideal to bat second. We have enough RH power.

I don't know how average fits into it, but true, Beltran probably would benefit more from Yankee Stadium than Jones. Jones is not really a "worse" option, though, and we'll see what happens next offseason. Say Jones gets signed by us for 5/70 or something.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 11:24 AM
I don't know how average fits into it, but true, Beltran probably would benefit more from Yankee Stadium than Jones. Jones is not really a "worse" option, though, and we'll see what happens next offseason. Say Jones gets signed by us for 5/70 or something.


Agree, not worse as players side to side. I hope we avoid Jones next year, personally.

DJ27
12-20-05, 11:27 AM
What if Andruw Jones hits the market?

Too bad that Kevin Brown for Andruw Jones rumor from last year didn't come true!

BronxByTheBay
12-20-05, 11:29 AM
Beltran isn't average. If you think so...oh well.

He ain't 6/7 years, 100 million-plus good either.

Jace
12-20-05, 11:35 AM
Jones is actually signed through 2007.

38Special
12-20-05, 12:06 PM
Instincts and Speed is the new "Belly full of guts"

Yanks Lifer
12-20-05, 12:08 PM
Too bad that Kevin Brown for Andruw Jones rumor from last year didn't come true!

Can you imagine if it did! That would have made the Roberto Kelly for Paul O'Neill deal look like the Yanks got hosed.

Spiker101
12-20-05, 12:09 PM
Thanks, Jace, I can't understand why some people around here can't wrap their minds around the fact that Andruw is signed through '07 and will, with almost metaphysical certainty, be extended by the Braves. The Braves had two foundation stones, Chipper and Andruw. They're keeping both.

The bashing of Beltran is simply misrepresenting the facts. I can only guess it's because people have a natural reluctance to admit they were wrong. If there are defensive metrics that say Carlos is an average defender, the metrics, as they often are, are simply wrong. Beltran is an elite defensive centerfielder. That is the universial opinion of MLB scouts, who are in aggregate the best judges of defense.
Carlos is not a good baserunner but a great baserunner.
And when considering offense at a defensive position, such as SS, 2b or CF, it is proper to compare a player with other players at the same position. At the age of 24, Beltran had the third best OPS among MLB CFers, at the age of 25, his OPS was sixth best, at the age of 26, it was second best, at the age of 27, it was second best. And he was putting up these numbers while surrounded by some of the worst hitting teams in the game.
Yes, Beltran had an off-year. Really difficult to understand why, isn't it? New team, new league, new contract. But almost every player, including the greats, has at least one off year.
Beltran is an elite CFer and not signing him when the opportunity presented itself is a mistake the Yanks will pay for, one way or another, for years to come.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 12:10 PM
Instincts and Speed is the new "Belly full of guts"


See Derek Jeter.

gdn
12-20-05, 12:11 PM
Is Juan Pierre still available? Speed wins championships.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 12:13 PM
Thanks, Jace, I can't understand why some people around here can't wrap their minds around the fact that Andruw is signed through '07 and will with almost metaphysical certainty be extended by the Braves. The Braves had two foundation stones, Chipper and Andruw. They're keeping both.

The bashing of Beltran is simply misrepresenting the facts. I can only guess it's because people have a natural reluctance to admit they were wrong. If there are defensive metrics that say Carlos is an average defender, the metrics, as they often are, are simply wrong. Beltran is an elite defensive centerfielder. That is the universial opinion of MLB scouts, who are in aggregate the best judges of defense.
Carlos is not a good baserunner but a great baserunner.
And when considering offense at a defensive position, such as SS, 2b or CF, it is proper to compare a player with other players at the same position. At the age of 24, Beltran had the third best OPS among MLB CFers, at the age of 25, his OPS was sixth best, at the age of 26, it was second best, at the age of 27, it was second best. And he was putting up these numbers while surrounded by some of the worst hitting teams in the game.
Yes, Beltran had an off-year. Really difficult to understand why, isn't it? New team, new league, new contract. But almost every player, including the greats, have at least one off year.
Beltran is an elite CFer and not signing him when the opportunity presented itself is a mistake the Yanks will pay for, one way or another, for years to come.


Thanks for the post. I was getting lonely.

Jaeho
12-20-05, 12:17 PM
Beltran is an elite CFer and not signing him when the opportunity presented itself is a mistake the Yanks will pay for, one way or another, for years to come.

:lol:

Keep dreaming.

ieddyi
12-20-05, 12:22 PM
Who said anything about rebuilding? Many Red Sox fans think signing Damon to a 4 year deal is a bad move over trading for Reed or Crisp. John Henry has been very clear on this. He's not going to lower payroll. Signing a player just to keep payroll up is ridiculous.

The Red Sox will sell every ticket for Fenway Park for the foreseeable future with a payroll of 120 to 130 million. That will put the team in contention every year for a playoff spot. It's a baseball town and always has been. Not to mention the fact that Fenway is a tourist atttraction.

When it comes to patience, Red Sox fans are no different than Yankee fans or anyone else when it comes to onfield performance. I'm not sure why that's relevant to the discussion.

You're again missing the point w/ reflexive sawx defense when no offense need be taken. I was talking in hypotheticals IF's/ THEN's

The Red Sox will sell every ticket for Fenway Park for the foreseeable future with a payroll of 120 to 130 million.

My post noted that with the prices going to the stratosphere, the fan base has changed. You're getting more corporate types on expense accounts, etc. I've seen several fans note this- do you dispute that?
IF there is a drought and consistent less than excellent play, you probaly see a drop off in interest in the newer/ less commited fans. Will Mr. red faced corporate beer swilling "fan" be just as willing to spend $100/ticket if the team isn't winning?

I never said that the Yankee fans were different or better- you filled that in yourself. The Yankees drew more last year than they did in the late 90's when they were winning series. IF they had been not winning and had reduced payroll and let popular players go, I think their attendance would have suffered

Spiker101
12-20-05, 12:26 PM
:lol:

Keep dreaming.

And you keep denying the obvious.:D

ieddyi
12-20-05, 12:27 PM
T
The bashing of Beltran is simply misrepresenting the facts. I can only guess it's because people have a natural reluctance to admit they were wrong. If there are defensive metrics that say Carlos is an average defender, the metrics, as they often are, are simply wrong. Beltran is an elite defensive centerfielder. That is the universial opinion of MLB scouts, who are in aggregate the best judges of defense.
.

The bashing occurs ONLY when the Beltran lovers make outrageous statements like he will be the only FA worth having in the next 6 years- a collosally arrogant and baseless statement

EVERY defensive metric has him as an average defensive player. Every Mets fan I know- who watched every game last year say that they were very dissapointed in his defense.
Show me scouting reports of scouts who said that he performed as an elite CF last year.

Factor in the money , and passing on him was a no brainer

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 12:35 PM
The bashing occurs ONLY when the Beltran lovers make outrageous statements like he will be the only FA worth having in the next 6 years- a collosally arrogant and baseless statement

Not the only FA worth signing. Just stick to the statements and it will all be ok.

The only arrogance is your own as my post is my opinion.

Spiker01 posted some facts as to Beltrans comparision to others at his position.

Spiker101
12-20-05, 12:41 PM
I think the sawx almost have to sign Damon. They have lowered their payroll a bunch this year already.

I don't see where they've lowered their payroll a bunch.
they've add Lowell at $9 million.
traded Renteria and his $8 million but will be picking up $3 million of that, and then added another $3 million for Loretta and possibly will be picking up another SS at an unknown cost.
They do save $3.5 million letting Millar ascend to idiots heaven. But they are reportedly in the market for a hitter, not wishing to rely on Youkilis.
And how much are they going to have to pay Beckett in arbitration, in this market? Or, if they're smart, how much will they have to pay to sign him long-term. And Mota got $2.5 million last year, he's looking at an arbitration raise, I think.
Looks to me like they've added some payroll, not a dramatic amount, but if they have to fork over $12 million for Damon and are unable to trade Manny and realize some savings that way, the payroll will be rising substantially.

Jace
12-20-05, 12:41 PM
Thanks, Jace, I can't understand why some people around here can't wrap their minds around the fact that Andruw is signed through '07 and will, with almost metaphysical certainty, be extended by the Braves. The Braves had two foundation stones, Chipper and Andruw. They're keeping both.


I was actually the one talking about Jones, I forgot that he has 2 years left. In any case I'm not so sure about the "metaphysical certainty" that he resigns with Atlanta. I think he will, but with like 60% certainty.

Many players want to test the free agent market. Tons of ego guys like Andruw Jones want to test their skills against the great measuring stick of New York City. And we can pay more than Atlanta. We'll revisit this in 2 years.

NDBoston
12-20-05, 12:46 PM
You're again missing the point w/ reflexive sawx defense when no offense need be taken. I was talking in hypotheticals IF's/ THEN's

The Red Sox will sell every ticket for Fenway Park for the foreseeable future with a payroll of 120 to 130 million.

My post noted that with the prices going to the stratosphere, the fan base has changed. You're getting more corporate types on expense accounts, etc. I've seen several fans note this- do you dispute that?
IF there is a drought and consistent less than excellent play, you probaly see a drop off in interest in the newer/ less commited fans. Will Mr. red faced corporate beer swilling "fan" be just as willing to spend $100/ticket if the team isn't winning?



I agree the fan has changed in many parks including Fenway.

Most times Mr Corporate beer "fan" isn't even paying for his ticket if he's in the $100 seats. He's there to entertain his customer and rarely cares who wins or loses.

The bleachers and grandstand tickets would be the first to take a hit but attendance has been very good in Boston for many years.

If a company or people don't want the tickets, then there's a long list of people who do. I disagree that there will be a dramatic dropoff on ticket sales just because Fenway is becoming a "fashionable" place to be not unlike Wrigley Field. I don't like it either.

noneckwilliams
12-20-05, 12:51 PM
The bashing occurs ONLY when the Beltran lovers make outrageous statements like he will be the only FA worth having in the next 6 years- a collosally arrogant and baseless statement



I read so many posts last winter about how many other options there were (besides Beltran) yet a year later we are still without a long term (or short term for that matter) solution for CF. The Yankees have been exploring the acquisition of a CFer since last May and have come up empty.

Now here we are (pretty much where I thought we'd be after passing on CB) staring down the barrell of a 5 year offer for Damon.

Spiker101
12-20-05, 01:05 PM
The bashing occurs ONLY when the Beltran lovers make outrageous statements like he will be the only FA worth having in the next 6 years- a collosally arrogant and baseless statement

EVERY defensive metric has him as an average defensive player. Every Mets fan I know- who watched every game last year say that they were very dissapointed in his defense.
Show me scouting reports of scouts who said that he performed as an elite CF last year.

Factor in the money , and passing on him was a no brainer

Then every defensive metric on him is wrong, as they all are when assessing CFers who happen to play at Safeco, for example. As for the disappointment of Mets fans ... well, lets just say I don't hold the opinion of the run-of-the Mets fan in very high esteem.

This from Carlos' ESPN's profile, and where do you think these come from if not scouts/sources.

Baserunning & Defense

Beltran's highlight film could be an instructional video on what a five-tool player is. He runs like a gazelle and easily can turn what appears to be a double into a standup triple. The National League still hasn't caught him stealing in 34 tries (including playoffs). He studies pitchers well and has such explosion when he runs that catchers rarely have a chance. Though Beltran often plays somewhat shallow, no one can hit balls over his head. He covers a huge amount of ground and makes the acrobatic catch. He also has a plus arm.



And by the way, while his '05 season was bad, it wasn't THAT bad. Ten of his 16 homers either tied the game or gave the Mets a lead. His batting averages with runners on base (.290 in 238 at-bats), runners in scoring position (.298 in 151 at-bats) and with a man on third and less than two out (.452 in 42 at-bats) could be seen by even the skeptical as decent numbers.

I can't speak for others, but I didn't suggest that Beltran and Damon are the only free agent CFers worth signing over the next 5-6 years. They are, however, the only ones that will hit the free-agent market in the foreseeable future. Unless you think A) it'd be a good idea to sign Edmonds at age 36, B) that the Braves are going to let Jones go elsewhere and C) that the Twins won't shop Torii Hunter.

Yes, the decision not to sign CB was indeed a no-brainer, in the sense that whoever made it had no brain.

TommyK8
12-20-05, 01:08 PM
I don't see where they've lowered their payroll a bunch.
they've add Lowell at $9 million.
traded Renteria and his $8 million but will be picking up $3 million of that, and then added another $3 million for Loretta and possibly will be picking up another SS at an unknown cost.
They do save $3.5 million letting Millar ascend to idiots heaven. But they are reportedly in the market for a hitter, not wishing to rely on Youkilis.
And how much are they going to have to pay Beckett in arbitration, in this market? Or, if they're smart, how much will they have to pay to sign him long-term. And Mota got $2.5 million last year, he's looking at an arbitration raise, I think.
Looks to me like they've added some payroll, not a dramatic amount, but if they have to fork over $12 million for Damon and are unable to trade Manny and realize some savings that way, the payroll will be rising substantially.

Here are some of the savings from last year's salary cap: Bellhorn $2.12 million; Embree $3 million; Halama $1 million; Millar $3 million; BK Kim $5 million; Miller $2.4 million; Remlinger $1 million; Renteria $7 million; Mirabelli $1.5 million; Mueller $2.1 million; and if Wells gets traded-$9 million.

As you can see, even with the addition of Lowell at $9 million, whatever Beckett commands in arbitration, Mota, Loretta, Graffanino and Arroyo in arbitration, and a few other pieces to the puzzle, the Red Sox have a lot of room to work with before even approaching the total payroll they were at last year. They have plenty of space to give Damon a raise, but the question is not yearly salary but how many years they are willing to guarantee. This is why the Red Sox have contacted Clemens' agents, as they have room in the budget over last year.

Spiker101
12-20-05, 01:10 PM
In any case I'm not so sure about the "metaphysical certainty" that he resigns with Atlanta. I think he will, but with like 60% certainty.

Many players want to test the free agent market. Tons of ego guys like Andruw Jones want to test their skills against the great measuring stick of New York City. And we can pay more than Atlanta. We'll revisit this in 2 years.

Sure there are ego guys who want to test the free agent market, it's just that Andruw isn't one of them. He's been in the game since '96 and could have gone the free agency route. Instead, he re-upped at mid-season 2000, at something of a home-team discount to boot. The reports about him are that he has a touch of Manny in him and needs to be coddled/fathered, a role Bobby Cox plays. So long as Cox is there, so will Andruw, I'm afraid.

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 01:16 PM
I don't care if we shove "old man river" out to play CF, there is no way in today's economics that I would pay Beltran 16.7M per season.
If my option is Beltran at 16.7 million per season for 6 or Damon at 11 million per season for 5, I would have to take the former.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 01:16 PM
Let me explain my opinon a little better.

I was in favor of, yes, "overpaying" Beltran last off season in favor of aquiring Randy Johnson (it seems very clear that the Yankees could only do one or the other.)

My basis was that a) I was/am a fan of Beltran as a player. I would equate him to our very own Derek Jeter. They both play important defensive positions well (some say only avg, others say above, some even say GG in the case of Jeter.) They both do a bit of everything. Jeter hits for a higher avg, Beltran has more pop. Both run very well and have great baseball instincts. Neither is considered and elite offensive player.

b) I was last off season, as I am now, interested in a long term plan to improve the Yankees. And I am happy Cash has taken the stance that he has. So with this in mind, I prefered Beltran to R-Jo because Beltran fills a void that, as noneck posted, is becoming a deeper void.

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 01:20 PM
Ya know, BBTB, I think you me and Dools were the only people on this board who wanted to trade Vazquez. Are there any GM openings available? Maybe we should look into it. :)

It wasn't the Javy for RJ part that people didn't like. It was Navarro being involved and that we signed him to a 2 year extension, instead of a 1 year extension.

edit: It was also that when it came out we could either trade for RJ or sign Beltran, some of us would have rather signed Beltran.

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 01:23 PM
So SB and going from 1st to 3rd and such? Andruw Jones seems to have good defensive instincts. I think Beltran will rebound from last year, but I don't think he is more valuable offensively than Jones.
Jones' defense has declined greatly since he was a youngster.

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 01:28 PM
Let me explain my opinon a little better.

I was in favor of, yes, "overpaying" Beltran last off season in favor of aquiring Randy Johnson (it seems very clear that the Yankees could only do one or the other.)

My basis was that a) I was/am a fan of Beltran as a player. I would equate him to our very own Derek Jeter. They both play important defensive positions well (some say only avg, others say above, some even say GG in the case of Jeter.) They both do a bit of everything. Jeter hits for a higher avg, Beltran has more pop. Both run very well and have great baseball instincts. Neither is considered and elite offensive player.

b) I was last off season, as I am now, interested in a long term plan to improve the Yankees. And I am happy Cash has taken the stance that he has. So with this in mind, I prefered Beltran to R-Jo because Beltran fills a void that, as noneck posted, is becoming a deeper void.
Yep, I agree.

My basis was that the Yankees greatest need that needed to be filled was CF. More so than starting pitching because an average defensive CFer saves a ton of runs compared to Bernie. So, because I felt CF was such a huge need, I was in favor of overspending for Beltran.

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 01:42 PM
XM's Home Plate just reported the Yanks have offered Damon a 5 year contract.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 01:46 PM
XM's Home Plate just reported the Yanks have offered Damon a 5 year contract.


Say it isn't so, Go.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 01:47 PM
XM's Home Plate just reported the Yanks have offered Damon a 5 year contract.

Is this gonna get dumped on Steinbrenner?

nnysiny
12-20-05, 01:47 PM
What>!>!>!>!>!?!?!?!?!

DJ27
12-20-05, 01:47 PM
XM's Home Plate just reported the Yanks have offered Damon a 5 year contract.

Hopefully it is to DH, not play CF!

NDBoston
12-20-05, 01:48 PM
Good luck Johnny. Thanks for 2004.

Kulish29
12-20-05, 01:48 PM
XM's Home Plate just reported the Yanks have offered Damon a 5 year contract.

Quick, somebody get me a baby bird. Because I just threw up in my mouth.

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 01:48 PM
Say it isn't so, Go.

I wish I were.

Dr. Gonzo
12-20-05, 01:51 PM
if they give him five years, it would seem to me that george may have gotten involved. I doubt cashman wants this.

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 01:52 PM
XM's Home Plate just reported the Yanks have offered Damon a 5 year contract.
OK Red Sox. Now it's time to pony up and offer Damon a 5 year deal so he doesn't go to the hated Yankees. Please, please, please match our offer.

The thought of Damon on this team for 5 years makes me sick...

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 01:53 PM
OK Red Sox. Now it's time to pony up and offer Damon a 5 year deal so he doesn't go to the hated Yankees. Please, please, please match our offer.

The thought of Damon on this team for 5 years makes me sick...

I am in shock. I guess George really is in charge.

DJ27
12-20-05, 01:53 PM
Well.... at least it's not 7? :dunno: :dunno: :uhh: :uhh:

Spiker101
12-20-05, 01:54 PM
[QUOTE=TommyK8]Here are some of the savings from last year's salary cap: Bellhorn $2.12 million; Embree $3 million; Halama $1 million; Millar $3 million; BK Kim $5 million; Miller $2.4 million; Remlinger $1 million; Renteria $7 million; Mirabelli $1.5 million; Mueller $2.1 million; and if Wells gets traded-$9 million.

As you can see ...
QUOTE]
First off, I grant you that the Kim situation is complicated but there is no $5 million savings. They'll save roughly $500,000. The Sox owed Kim $5 million in both '05 and '06 but they traded him in a swap of bad contracts for Charles Johnson. The Sox then turned around and released Johnson, but they're still on the books for $4.5 million in '06
.
Elsewhere, Clement gets a $3 million raise. Ortiz $1.25, $1 million for Timlin, Schilling/Foulke a little under $1 million combined in raises. They are close to wrapping up deal for Saenz, no word on how much they're going to pay him, but I'd guess $2 million-$3 million (Villone money, in other words.)

I don't know where you get the $9 million for Wells (his base was $2.5 and I can't imagine he maxed out his incentives), in any case, good luck to the Sox trying to trade that contract witthout eating a lot of money.

You assume Miller will be non-tendered. That's probably a good assumption but it's not certain. Arroyo, Bradford and Graffaino are headed to arb, and figure to get substantial raises, especially Arroyo. They still need a backup catcher, want a right-handed platoon mate for Nixon, maybe a platoon mate for Youkilis at first. And right now they have either Cora or Lorretta playing short. As we say here in Texas, that dog won't hunt.

The Sox will not be cutting payroll in '06, unless they make a flurry of trades that would weaken the team.

NDBoston
12-20-05, 01:55 PM
I am in shock. I guess George really is in charge.

Was it Steiner who said it? What did he say exactly?

Dr. Gonzo
12-20-05, 01:55 PM
Yep, I agree.

My basis was that the Yankees greatest need that needed to be filled was CF. More so than starting pitching because an average defensive CFer saves a ton of runs compared to Bernie. So, because I felt CF was such a huge need, I was in favor of overspending for Beltran.
but we didn't have to overspend for him in that market.

cupcollector99
12-20-05, 01:56 PM
Oh jeez..
I imagine the deal will have some sort of no trade clause and a guarantee for five years with no option for NY.

He will have to get his hair cut.

27IsNext
12-20-05, 01:56 PM
Yuck. :(

George is messin' up again. Why can't he just sit back and let Brian run the show?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 01:56 PM
I am in shock. I guess George really is in charge.

If George was in charge, we would've traded Cano, Wang and Duncan for Griffey

dabomb2045
12-20-05, 01:56 PM
So much for Cashman having full autonomy....George has decided to stick his nose in again.

5 years for Damon?? Oy vey. :eek:

DJ27
12-20-05, 01:56 PM
Oh jeez..
I imagine the deal will have some sort of no trade clause and a guarantee for five years with no option for NY.

He will have to get his hair cut.

Maybe the 5th year is a team option??

27IsNext
12-20-05, 01:58 PM
If George was in charge, we would've traded Cano, Wang and Duncan for Griffey

What this proves to me is, while Cashman has full autonomy, George will occasionally butt in and demand we sign X player. UGH!

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 01:59 PM
Was it Steiner who said it? What did he say exactly?

It was during one of the updates at 2:20.

Kulish29
12-20-05, 01:59 PM
I think we are jumping to conclusions way too fast here. Nobody said he has signed, they just said the Yankees offered him a contract, and we dont even know if that is true.

So, until we hear something official, we should take that chill pill and relax. :)

DJ27
12-20-05, 01:59 PM
What this proves to me is, while Cashman has full autonomy, George will occasionally butt in and demand we sign X player. UGH!

Hate to say it... but it is his right to do so.

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 01:59 PM
If George was in charge, we would've traded Cano, Wang and Duncan for Griffey

Maybe I'm giving Cash too much credit, but I don't think he'd offer 5 years.

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 02:01 PM
I think we are jumping to conclusions way too fast here. Nobody said he has signed, they just said the Yankees offered him a contract, and we dont even know if that is true.

So, until we hear something official, we should take that chill pill and relax. :)

Well IF we did, I think we will get him, unless he's willing to take less to go back to Boston. Boston will unlikely go five and how many times does a Boras client take less?

cupcollector99
12-20-05, 02:02 PM
Maybe the 5th year is a team option??

I hope so. I'm tired of the Yanks getting these one sided, "heavy" contracts (like Posada, Giambi and Mussina) that make it almost impossible to make moves in June and July.

Now if I'm a player, I'm loving the guaranteed money especially if my skills are on the downslide, like Damon.

27IsNext
12-20-05, 02:02 PM
Maybe I'm giving Cash too much credit, but I don't think he'd offer 5 years.

No way he would. This has George written all over it.

That being said, I wouldn't worry too much about Cashman's power/a revival of Tampa. I think this is an example of a rare case (but totally expected given George's personality) where George will demand we sign one particular player.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 02:03 PM
Maybe I'm giving Cash too much credit, but I don't think he'd offer 5 years.

I think he realizes that this offseason has been dead for the Yankees, and that this team needs a centerfielder. Hopefully its frontloaded, maybe he can do that for the Yankees

27IsNext
12-20-05, 02:04 PM
I think we need to wait until someone other than some XM program reports this.

ieddyi
12-20-05, 02:06 PM
[QUOTE=TommyK8]
I don't know where you get the $9 million for Wells (his base was $2.5 and I can't imagine he maxed out his incentives), in any case, good luck to the Sox trying to trade that contract witthout eating a lot of money.

.

His base was low (2.5M), but he got a signing bonus also- it was 3M divided over the 2 seasons- making his base 4M. His incentives were based solely on starts and he made all of those incentives- so he got 9M last year. The incentive total is 5M/ year so he can make the 9M again next year

San Diego got similar production for 6M the previous year, so while he was a good pitcher for them, it really didn't fit the low risk profile that many touted his signing with

Espinosa's Glasses
12-20-05, 02:10 PM
I'm about to go listen to my XM soon I'll give reports

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 02:12 PM
I think we need to wait until someone other than some XM program reports this.

I agree it's not a done deal, but Xm has been dependable for info.

DJ27
12-20-05, 02:13 PM
I agree it's not a done deal, but Xm has been dependable for info.

So, if it is true, what are the odds of Damon signing this week?

Espinosa's Glasses
12-20-05, 02:13 PM
XM is really reliable...

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 02:15 PM
but we didn't have to overspend for him in that market.
That's where I disagree. Because, IMO, it was such an enormous need, we did have to overspend for him. We also had to overspend for him because the CF market was going to be so horrible after this season.

Spiker101
12-20-05, 02:16 PM
His base was low (2.5M), but he got a signing bonus also- it was 3M divided over the 2 seasons- making his base 4M. His incentives were based solely on starts and he made all of those incentives- so he got 9M last year. The incentive total is 5M/ year so he can make the 9M again next year



My bad, I forgot about the bonus. I still think the Sox are going to have a hard time getting rid of him. But on the positive side, knowing Wells' reputation, he's just liable to up and quit, which would save them the money anyway.

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 02:17 PM
We also give up our 1st rounder to the Red Sox if we sign Damon... (Does that mean the 1st rounder we got for Flash from Philly goes to the Sox?)

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 02:18 PM
We also give up our 1st rounder to the Red Sox if we sign Damon... (Does that mean the 1st rounder we got for Flash from Philly goes to the Sox?)


I think its a supplemental pick

destro
12-20-05, 02:22 PM
xm's update mentioned nothing

ICEBERG18
12-20-05, 02:29 PM
XM's Home Plate just reported the Yanks have offered Damon a 5 year contract.
I don't believe it.

NelsonMuntz
12-20-05, 02:31 PM
I don't believe it.
I don't either. Mostly because I don't want to.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 02:32 PM
Maybe Torre will call up Johnny, and he will change his mind and go to the Sox

Buzah!
12-20-05, 02:33 PM
I don't believe the Yanks have any 5 year deal, or any deal with Damon.

ICEBERG18
12-20-05, 02:34 PM
We also give up our 1st rounder to the Red Sox if we sign Damon... (Does that mean the 1st rounder we got for Flash from Philly goes to the Sox?)

The Braves already have our 1st-RD pick. If we were to sign Damon the Redsox would get it, and the Braves would get our 2nd-RD pick. The pick we got from the Phillies for Gordon along with the supplemental pick can't be touched, it's already locked in as ours.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 02:36 PM
The Braves already have our 1st-RD pick. If we were to sign Damon the Redsox would get it, and the Braves would get our 2nd-RD pick. The pick we got from the Phillies for Gordon along with the supplemental pick can't be touched, it's already locked in as ours.

Good thats the one that matters the most. Its 16th overall correct?

ieddyi
12-20-05, 02:36 PM
Hopefully a ploy to get the sawx to up the ante.

Probably leaked/made up by Boras

Kulish29
12-20-05, 02:37 PM
Well IF we did, I think we will get him, unless he's willing to take less to go back to Boston. Boston will unlikely go five and how many times does a Boras client take less?

I agree, if that's what was offered, he'd probably take it.

Kulish29
12-20-05, 02:37 PM
Good thats the one that matters the most. Its 16th overall correct?

22nd.

DJ27
12-20-05, 02:38 PM
Hopefully a ploy to get the sawx to up the ante.

Probably leaked/made up by Boras

Could be right.

ieddyi
12-20-05, 02:39 PM
Lofton, Dodgers Agree to One-Year Deal

By KEN PETERS, AP Sports Writer 14 minutes ago

LOS ANGELES - Six-time All-Star Kenny Lofton agreed Tuesday to a one-year contract with the Dodgers, filling a need in the Los Angeles outfield.
ADVERTISEMENT
[0]


Ned Colletti, who became the Dodgers' general manager on Nov. 15, added another veteran free agent to the club after reaching agreements with shortstop Rafael Furcal, third baseman Bill Mueller and Nomar Garciaparra, who will play first base.

"I know they're looking to win, and that's what I'm all about," Lofton said. "At this point, I see that the Dodgers are making their move forward, putting guys on the field who have been there, done that, know how to win."

Well,we can cross the Dodgers off the list- they were never serious contenders

Tifoso
12-20-05, 02:41 PM
Lofton, Dodgers Agree to One-Year Deal

By KEN PETERS, AP Sports Writer 14 minutes ago

LOS ANGELES - Six-time All-Star Kenny Lofton agreed Tuesday to a one-year contract with the Dodgers, filling a need in the Los Angeles outfield.
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Ned Colletti, who became the Dodgers' general manager on Nov. 15, added another veteran free agent to the club after reaching agreements with shortstop Rafael Furcal, third baseman Bill Mueller and Nomar Garciaparra, who will play first base.

"I know they're looking to win, and that's what I'm all about," Lofton said. "At this point, I see that the Dodgers are making their move forward, putting guys on the field who have been there, done that, know how to win."

Well,we can cross the Dodgers off the list- they were never serious contenders

I thought they were in the top 4: Yanks, Sox, LA, and the O's :dunno:

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-20-05, 02:41 PM
Lofton, Dodgers Agree to One-Year Deal

they're looking to win, and that's what I'm all about," Lofton said. "At this point, I see that the Dodgers are making their move forward, putting guys on the field who have been there, done that, know how to win."


But will he park cars, that's the real question.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 02:42 PM
22nd.

whoops we both wrong, it says 21st on Baseball America

DJ27
12-20-05, 02:42 PM
But will he park cars, that's the real question.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 02:42 PM
well one of the people that told me (I would not take this word with 100% credibility) the Yanks have a 5 PM press conference. (Keep in mind it could be to introduce Villone and/or Myers).

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 02:42 PM
But will he park cars, that's the real question.

he wouldn't be able to even be a bench player, the LA fans come late and leavee early

spiritof27
12-20-05, 02:46 PM
The Braves already have our 1st-RD pick. If we were to sign Damon the Redsox would get it, and the Braves would get our 2nd-RD pick. The pick we got from the Phillies for Gordon along with the supplemental pick can't be touched, it's already locked in as ours.

I believe Damon declined arbitration, though, didn't he? Thought I read that on ESPN. If so, we wouldn't lose any pick to the Sox.

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 02:47 PM
I believe Damon declined arbitration, though, didn't he? Thought I read that on ESPN. If so, we wouldn't lose any pick to the Sox.

I BELIEVE that if we waited until after Jan. 8 that would be the case.

Tifoso
12-20-05, 02:48 PM
okay, anyone with XM, please start listening, it said the press conference would be to announce the signing of Damon.

Holy cow!

OK, let's assume it's done. Position players set. MR looks pretty set.

What do we do about:

1. the extra SP?
2. the bench?

EDIT: you do mean by the Yanks, right?

nyyanksfan20
12-20-05, 02:48 PM
I believe Damon declined arbitration, though, didn't he? Thought I read that on ESPN. If so, we wouldn't lose any pick to the Sox.


I don't think it matters that he declined it, just that the Sox offered it.

noneckwilliams
12-20-05, 02:48 PM
I don't believe it.


I don't either. Mostly because I don't want to.


Why? It's the most predictable thing in the world. There is no way GS will pass on Damon. He'd give him 6 years if he had to.

Cash doesn't get to make the call on this one - it's all George.

Jasbro
12-20-05, 02:49 PM
On other fronts, the Yankees killed a Boston rumor that had them offering Johnny Damon a five-year, $53 million deal.

[George King]

http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/59937.htm

23and2
12-20-05, 02:49 PM
At first blush, the Lofton to LA signing may not seem significant - but now that LA is certainly out of the CF market, Damon and Boras are probably looking to get something done ASAP. No more talking about another team's 5-6 year offer - we aren't buying that bluff anymore.

DJ27
12-20-05, 02:49 PM
Holy cow!

OK, let's assume it's done. Position players set. MR looks pretty set.

What do we do about:

1. the extra SP?
2. the bench?

Deal our extra pitching for a RF and let Sheff DH.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 02:49 PM
Holy cow!

OK, let's assume it's done. Position players set. MR looks pretty set.

What do we do about:

1. the extra SP?
2. the bench?

Our bench is awful. We have no pinch hitter types

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 02:50 PM
The Braves already have our 1st-RD pick. If we were to sign Damon the Redsox would get it, and the Braves would get our 2nd-RD pick. The pick we got from the Phillies for Gordon along with the supplemental pick can't be touched, it's already locked in as ours.
Thanks. That makes it a little better then.

Kulish29
12-20-05, 02:50 PM
whoops we both wrong, it says 21st on Baseball America

Sweet, glad to be wrong there. :)

Tifoso
12-20-05, 02:50 PM
Anybody got a link to an internet radio station that might be carrying the announcement?

Kulish29
12-20-05, 02:51 PM
Why? It's the most predictable thing in the world. There is no way GS will pass on Damon. He'd give him 6 years if he had to.

Cash doesn't get to make the call on this one - it's all George.

What about this offseason has shown you the Yankees would offer a large contract to a FA?

Tifoso
12-20-05, 02:51 PM
Deal our extra pitching for a RF and let Sheff DH.

I like it.

Who? :D

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 02:51 PM
Anybody got a link to an internet radio station that might be carrying the announcement?

Lou calm yourself, there has been no deal finalized. Its XM radio that said we OFFERED a contract,

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 02:51 PM
I don't think it matters that he declined it, just that the Sox offered it.
Yes, you are correct. Had Damon accepted it, he would be getting a 1 year deal from the Red Sox.

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 02:52 PM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/59937.htm
If it wasn't George King, I would feel much better about that.

DJ27
12-20-05, 02:52 PM
I like it.

Who? :D

No idea... maybe will be a new thread if this Damon thing goes down!

JeffWeaverFan
12-20-05, 02:54 PM
well one of the people that told me (I would not take this word with 100% credibility) the Yanks have a 5 PM press conference. (Keep in mind it could be to introduce Villone and/or Myers).
Yeah. There's no way that it would be to announce the Damon signing. If we sign Damon and there's a press conference, we will have known long before that we signed him. Then there would be a couple more days and Damon would come to YS along with a ton of press to be there for the press conference. It wouldn't just come out as a surprise.

YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 02:55 PM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/59937.htm

Why did it have to come from George King? But I'm guessing if this is true the basis of the report on XM.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-20-05, 02:56 PM
Why did it have to come from George King?

That was from last night fyi

ICEBERG18
12-20-05, 02:56 PM
I believe Damon declined arbitration, though, didn't he? Thought I read that on ESPN. If so, we wouldn't lose any pick to the Sox.

The Redsox offered him arbitration. So, the Redsox would definitely be getting a compensation pick. It doesn't matter that Damon declined arbitration.

Tifoso
12-20-05, 02:58 PM
Lou calm yourself, there has been no deal finalized. Its XM radio that said we OFFERED a contract,

I'm excited :D

This gets done, the rest is just tinkering.

OK, he swings a great stick, but has a spaghetti arm, Lou

See Yankees, CF, teams, 1996-2005

noneckwilliams
12-20-05, 02:59 PM
What about this offseason has shown you the Yankees would offer a large contract to a FA?


What about George Steinbrenner's history would show you that he could resist signing Damon?

Things have changed in the Yankee organization for sure - but what George wants George gets. Emslie and Connors and Levine may have had their wings clipped but George will always be the final authority.

I Love Wang
12-20-05, 03:01 PM
The Redsox offered him arbitration. So, the Redsox would definitely be getting a compensation pick. It doesn't matter that Damon declined arbitration.

Prepare to read 30 more posts with the same wrong assumption. People just make up their own baseball rules. Nobody does any research.

Buzah!
12-20-05, 03:03 PM
Prepare to read 30 more posts with the same wrong assumption. People just make up their own baseball rules. Nobody does any research.
baseball is magic and stats don't mean a thing!

Tifoso
12-20-05, 03:03 PM
Prepare to read 30 more posts with the same wrong assumption. People just make up their own baseball rules. Nobody does any research.


Memo to ILW:

Be nice. At least occasionally. ;)

gdn
12-20-05, 03:04 PM
Just say NO TO DAMON!!!

Mr. Damon... NO!

Dr. Gonzo
12-20-05, 03:16 PM
It seems like this is a Boras scheme to get boston to ante up. he lost LA and he needs to put pressure on Boston.

I hope it works and boston has to severely over pay to get him.

DJ27
12-20-05, 03:16 PM
It seems like this is a Boras scheme to get boston to ante up. he lost LA and he needs to put pressure on Boston.

I hope it works and boston has to severely over pay to get him.

Like accept that original 7 year deal Boras wanted!! :D

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-20-05, 03:21 PM
It seems like this is a Boras scheme to get boston to ante up. he lost LA and he needs to put pressure on Boston.

I hope it works and boston has to severely over pay to get him.

I don't think it will work for him if he tries that. Lucchino if nothing else could care less about players and what they mean to the fabric of a clubhouse. He cares about making money and putting a competitive team on the field. He's got a slot set for Damon and he won't go above it and will move on. They did it with A-Rod when they had the chance. They did it with Pedro and Lowe last year. They want to get rid of Manny because they hate the money left to him and they inherited that deal from the old Duquette regieme. I think Boras is in for a surprise because the Yankees are now an unwilling foil to throw money at free agents and Boston is also drawing the line with players and breaking up the team (in many ways). The only wild card in all this is George.

Kulish29
12-20-05, 03:24 PM
What about George Steinbrenner's history would show you that he could resist signing Damon?

Things have changed in the Yankee organization for sure - but what George wants George gets. Emslie and Connors and Levine may have had their wings clipped but George will always be the final authority.

If George were in charge and being the 'Old George', Cano, Wang and most of the Yankees blue chip prospects would be gone by now.

Things are different now. This offseason has shown us that.

27IsNext
12-20-05, 04:22 PM
My guess is XM was reporting the rumor that what's-his-face mentioned yesterday. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Stryder2929
12-20-05, 04:38 PM
my friend that goes to BU said that he heard a 5 year offer was made by the yankees on WEEI as well.

yankeesrule2000
12-20-05, 04:38 PM
If it was made, im sure it would of been accepted by now..

I Love Wang
12-20-05, 04:42 PM
The Yankees said they didn't offer anything to Damon, and have repeatedly stated they won't go above 4 years.

38Special
12-20-05, 05:01 PM
OH MAN DID I MISS THE PRESS CONFERENCE?

DID HE SHAVE THE BEARDurrr

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

38Special
12-20-05, 05:08 PM
Hypothetically...

If we could get Damon for 4 years at 13 mil a year (overpaying on the cash end but keeping the years down), and trade some of our stray pitching for a Wilkerson/Michaels type to push Sheffield to DH, would that not be a good scenario?

I definitely agree about most of the arguments regarding Damon, and he'll never touch Bernie in his prime, but he's still a very good hitter and has shown no signs of declining thus far. In addition, 13 or 14 mil a year for 4 years does not handicap us much with the young talent coming along with the big contracts coming off the payroll in the coming 3 years.

goin for 27
12-20-05, 05:13 PM
Damon has definitely started to decline, though still a very good player. I would love him for 3 years. Anything more is just too much.

goin for 27
12-20-05, 05:14 PM
It seems like this is a Boras scheme to get boston to ante up. he lost LA and he needs to put pressure on Boston.

I hope it works and boston has to severely over pay to get him.

Agreed, but I don't think that they will severely overpay. If they would, he would be inked. I hope that they get him, because I think that Reed is the other option, and I want him far from Boston.

27IsNext
12-20-05, 05:15 PM
Personally, with a Damon-esque player like Brett Gardner down in the minors, I wouldn't go above two years.

AMYanks
12-20-05, 05:27 PM
I don't believe it. If it is true, though, I feel bad for Cashman. You know this is all George/Tampa idiots.

38Special
12-20-05, 05:28 PM
I don't believe it. If it is true, though, I feel bad for Cashman. You know this is all George/Tampa idiots.
Believe what?

dabomb2045
12-20-05, 05:30 PM
Hypothetically...

If we could get Damon for 4 years at 13 mil a year (overpaying on the cash end but keeping the years down), and trade some of our stray pitching for a Wilkerson/Michaels type to push Sheffield to DH, would that not be a good scenario?

I definitely agree about most of the arguments regarding Damon, and he'll never touch Bernie in his prime, but he's still a very good hitter and has shown no signs of declining thus far. In addition, 13 or 14 mil a year for 4 years does not handicap us much with the young talent coming along with the big contracts coming off the payroll in the coming 3 years.


I would offer him 3 years guaranteed...with a team option for a 4th. Nothing more then that.

TheTinoMobile
12-20-05, 05:46 PM
I would rather give him 3 years at 14.5 than give him an option for a 4th.

Dr. Gonzo
12-20-05, 05:47 PM
Personally, with a Damon-esque player like Brett Gardner down in the minors, I wouldn't go above two years.
that is my biggest concern, that he blocks the plethora of OF's we have and we end by trading them all just because we have damon being paid alot of money.

He will stink in a couple of years, I loathe the idea of him being a yankee.

Dr. Gonzo
12-20-05, 05:49 PM
I don't think it will work for him if he tries that. Lucchino if nothing else could care less about players and what they mean to the fabric of a clubhouse. He cares about making money and putting a competitive team on the field. He's got a slot set for Damon and he won't go above it and will move on. They did it with A-Rod when they had the chance. They did it with Pedro and Lowe last year. They want to get rid of Manny because they hate the money left to him and they inherited that deal from the old Duquette regieme. I think Boras is in for a surprise because the Yankees are now an unwilling foil to throw money at free agents and Boston is also drawing the line with players and breaking up the team (in many ways). The only wild card in all this is George.

I don't think boston is that dumb either.

I think that boston might be trying to run up the price on us as welll, so we get saddled with his contract and then decline. Then they can say they trade but the yanks big money greddily won again. Maybe they will continue to make people think they are a small market team, who must combat the big bad yankees.

38Special
12-20-05, 05:54 PM
that is my biggest concern, that he blocks the plethora of OF's we have and we end by trading them all just because we have damon being paid alot of money.

He will stink in a couple of years, I loathe the idea of him being a yankee.

As long as Damon doesnt become a corpse, if one of our CF prospects turns into a big-time blue-chippers, Damon can be traded.

Tifoso
12-20-05, 05:56 PM
As long as Damon doesnt become a corpse, if one of our CF prospects turns into a big-time blue-chippers, Damon can be traded.


Thank you. Exactly. :clap:

I wonder if there would be this much hesitation, if he were wearing anything but a Sox uni?

NelsonMuntz
12-20-05, 05:57 PM
The Yankees said they didn't offer anything to Damon, and have repeatedly stated they won't go above 4 years.
Excellent.

AMYanks
12-20-05, 05:58 PM
Believe what?

Uhh... that the Yankees offered 5 years for Damon? That's what has been discussed in this thread for the past few hours. ;)

AMYanks
12-20-05, 05:59 PM
Thank you. Exactly. :clap:

I wonder if there would be this much hesitation, if he were wearing anything but a Sox uni?

It has nothing to do with the uniform. Cashman is smart, and knows that Damon isn't that great, especially at his age, with the contract he wants. And, how he is average at best defensively, and has a Bernie arm. The majority of his contract will be a huge disappointment.

noneckwilliams
12-20-05, 06:05 PM
If George were in charge and being the 'Old George', Cano, Wang and most of the Yankees blue chip prospects would be gone by now.

Things are different now. This offseason has shown us that.

I mostly agree with you but your idea that GS (or any owner) has divorced himself from the player personnel decisions is not realistic. If he wants Damon he will have him, it's that simple.

Jasbro
12-20-05, 06:05 PM
I wonder if there would be this much hesitation, if he were wearing anything but a Sox uni?

Given what he apparently wears when NOT in a Sox uni....

Hopefully, this is the closest we come to seeing Damon in anything resembling pinstripes.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/photo?photoId=965314&team=bos

Tifoso
12-20-05, 06:06 PM
It has nothing to do with the uniform. Cashman is smart, and knows that Damon isn't that great, especially at his age, with the contract he wants. And, how he is average at best defensively, and has a Bernie arm. The majority of his contract will be a huge disappointment.


You may be right, of course, amico mio. And we did just fine with a CFer with a Bernie arm. Bernie. ;)

Jasbro
12-20-05, 06:11 PM
You may be right, of course, amico mio. And we did just fine with a CFer with a Bernie arm. Bernie. ;)

Except that up until last year, Bernie has been a better hitter than Damon ever will be -- and will likely end up with much better career numbers than Damon will.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 06:26 PM
Given what he apparently wears when NOT in a Sox uni....

Hopefully, this is the closest we come to seeing Damon in anything resembling pinstripes.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/photo?photoId=965314&team=bos


I'll never believe Damon wants to be a Yank just because why would he want to change his look?

goin for 27
12-20-05, 06:40 PM
I'll never believe Damon wants to be a Yank just because why would he want to change his look?

Money?

StatenIslandYankee
12-20-05, 06:51 PM
wow 5yrs to Damon

AMYanks
12-20-05, 06:59 PM
You may be right, of course, amico mio. And we did just fine with a CFer with a Bernie arm. Bernie. ;)

Bernie was a great offensive player, good enough to make up for his average defense and weak arm. Starting in 2003, he declined at the plate, producing less runs offensively. Thus, it made his defense and throwing arm far less tolerable. Damon at his best is no where near as good as Bernie was offensively. And, as we know, Damon's best years are behind him. Damon would be better than Bernie for this year, likely the next two years. But not only is that not saying much, we also would have three more years to go, likely at around $12M+ per year. Plus, Bernie didn't have to cover as much ground for O'Neill as Damon would for Sheffield.

ReggieBar
12-20-05, 07:33 PM
Money?


Yeah, he gets bad for his look (DHL, other BS.) And it isn't like he wouldn't be making any money with Boston.

goin for 27
12-20-05, 09:28 PM
Yeah, he gets bad for his look (DHL, other BS.) And it isn't like he wouldn't be making any money with Boston.

Okay, then more money.

(hope it does not happen unless 3 years, which I know won't happen)