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ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 07:20 PM
I don't understand why you want to deny the obvious, when Randy Johnson himself would tell you he let down the team.
He finished fourth in the league in HRs allowed with 32, compared to the 18 he gave up the previous year.
His K/9 went from 10.62 in '04 to 8.42 last year. His OPS-against soared from .555 to .697. Whew.
RJ was a slightly above average starter last year, and you don't pay $16 million for a slightly above hurler.

Johnson would tell you he let the team down in Game 3 and would be correct. During the regular season he had his trials and tribulations, but he was a big part of why we won the AL East. You're not acknowleding any of the contributions Johnson made to this team, instead you're just bashing him because he didn't post a 2.50 and he didn't K 300 batters.
Johnson was not as bad as you're making him out to be in 2005. Why don't you take these shots at Mussina?

ojo
12-12-05, 07:53 PM
I don't understand why you want to deny the obvious, when Randy Johnson himself would tell you he let down the team.
He finished fourth in the league in HRs allowed with 32, compared to the 18 he gave up the previous year.
His K/9 went from 10.62 in '04 to 8.42 last year. His OPS-against soared from .555 to .697. Whew.
RJ was a slightly above average starter last year, and you don't pay $16 million for a slightly above hurler.

randy was about the 10th or so best starter in MLB last year. that's far, far above average.

Spiker101
12-12-05, 08:03 PM
randy was about the 10th or so best starter in MLB last year. that's far, far above average.

Someone's slipped you a bad piece of information. There were 41 starters in MLB with better ERAs than RJ's. There were 17 starters in the AL with lower ERAs. And of all these superior pitchers only Roger Clemens made more money. I don't understand this need to defend RJ when he will tell you himself he had a horrible year.

ojo
12-12-05, 08:14 PM
Someone's slipped you a bad piece of information. There were 41 starters in MLB with better ERAs than RJ's. There were 17 starters in the AL with lower ERAs. And of all these superior pitchers only Roger Clemens made more money. I don't understand this need to defend RJ when he will tell you himself he had a horrible year.

take a minimum cut off of 200 IP, you know, a season-long starter.

only santana, pedro, carpenter, clemens, pettitte, willis, zambrano, peavy, smoltz, oswalt and buehrle had better seasons. maybe colon. but he struck out much fewer per 9 than the unit did.

goin for 27
12-12-05, 09:14 PM
take a minimum cut off of 200 IP, you know, a season-long starter.

only santana, pedro, carpenter, clemens, pettitte, willis, zambrano, peavy, smoltz, oswalt and buehrle had better seasons. maybe colon. but he struck out much fewer per 9 than the unit did.

Forget the K/9, it is one stat. It is all about preventing runs.

Look at ERA+, it is park adjusted, etc. Best overall stat. The players below were better than RJ in both straight ERA, and ERA+ for 2005

Gustave Chacin was better than RJ, so was Josh Towers. How about Jose Contreras? Imagine that. Brett Myers? Yep, better year. Jeff Suppan, Brandon Webb, even Tom Glavine. (nasty second half did it) Joe Blanton, Kenny Rogers, etc.

Randy had a very solid year. However, MANY were better, and his year certainly was not RJ'esque to say the least.

wileedog
12-12-05, 09:35 PM
Not denying that at all. Johnson didn't pitch well in Game 3 at all, but Game 3 could've been won without him doing well if he had a some backing behind him.

But his original comment was not that Randy was soley responsible for the loss.

He said Randy sh*t the bed in the most important start he made for us - indeed, many would argue that the trade was made in the first place with the post-season in mind. And he flubbed it, whatever the rest of the team did.

wileedog
12-12-05, 09:37 PM
We don't pay Matsui and A-Rod their salaries to bat .200 and .195 with 1 RBI and 1 HR between them etheir. Anyone else you want to start a witch hunt on besides Johnson?

We didn't decide to completely and totally ignore the CF position for at least one or possibly two seasons or trade away our only viable catching prospect even as Jorge careens into the end of his career for Matsui or A-Rod.

They aren't relevant to this discussion.

wileedog
12-12-05, 09:40 PM
So Beltran would have won us the division? He would have made all the pitching woes go away too and the fact that we had just about every starter go down with an injury would have been avoided and the one guy that led the team in wins, K's, and ERA could have been replaced with Carlos Beltran's production? No. It doesn't work that way, put Beltran in center last year and with all the injuries to the pitching staff the Yankees probably do not make the playoffs. With Beltran in center and no Randy Johnson you would probably be complaining that the Yankees have no ace and no consistant starter to anchor the staff and thus that is why they missed the playoffs. I'm sorrt the love affair with Beltran is old and I would rather have Randy Johnson on this team. Just think without the Unit last year the Yankees would be in such dire need for ANOTHER starter they might have dones something really irrational before the trade deadline. But hey we would still have an overrated overpaid Beltran in CF....HOORAY!

And we would have a CFer this year. INstead of an aging starter who may or may not come anywhere near his career performance in the coming two years and a AAA player in CF.

GimeMoMuny
12-12-05, 09:42 PM
Just think without the Unit last year the Yankees would be in such dire need for ANOTHER starter they might have dones something really irrational before the trade deadline. But hey we would still have an overrated overpaid Beltran in CF....HOORAY!The Marlins wanted to deal Burnett for Vazquez. Randy Johnson would also be a free agent right about... now.

wileedog
12-12-05, 09:43 PM
The Marlins wanted to deal Burnett for Vazquez. Randy Johnson would also be a free agent right about... now.

Ouch.

Kulish29
12-12-05, 11:06 PM
The book on him is that he doesn't get the best jumps or take the best routes to the ball and doesn't have the speed to overcome either problem. If you basing you contention that he's the best CFer in the game on some defensive metric, you have to argue with someone else. I don't buy defensive stats for reasons that would take all night to explain.

So basically, you want to argue against facts. Ok.

Good luck with anybody taking you seriously. Defensive stats or any stats for that matter basically prove points. You cant really argue with them.

NewEraYanks2527
12-12-05, 11:33 PM
And we would have a CFer this year. INstead of an aging starter who may or may not come anywhere near his career performance in the coming two years and a AAA player in CF.
So by your logic it would have been better to have missed the postseason last year and still be missing big pieces of the rotation for this year in order to have a CFer this year. Yea that works for me.


The Marlins wanted to deal Burnett for Vazquez. Randy Johnson would also be a free agent right about... now.
And you would want AJ Burnett instead of Vazquez. Wow if that isn't a case of being caught between a rock and a hard place I dont know what is and also I really do not see any hard evidence supporting that could have happened, it was just a rumor at the time. If you can however prove to me that deal was on the table and all it took was Cahsman saying "Yea sure" then I will not regard it as any more than a rumor of last years offseason.

wileedog
12-13-05, 01:35 AM
So basically, you want to argue against facts. Ok.

Good luck with anybody taking you seriously. Defensive stats or any stats for that matter basically prove points. You cant really argue with them.
Defensive stats are catching smoke. DOn't even pretend they are in the same ballpark as hitting stats.

wileedog
12-13-05, 01:36 AM
So by your logic it would have been better to have missed the postseason last year and still be missing big pieces of the rotation for this year in order to have a CFer this year. Yea that works for me.
Making the postseason by the skin of our teeth and losing in the first round accomplished what exactly?

ICEBERG18
12-13-05, 02:21 AM
As for Johnny Damon, the Yankees continue to like the 32-year-old leadoff hitter/center fielder, but only if agent Scott Boras comes off his demand for a seven-year contract. The Yankees wouldn't be averse to a four-year deal worth between $11 million and $12 million a year.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58605.htm

I Love Wang
12-13-05, 02:24 AM
Making the postseason by the skin of our teeth and losing in the first round accomplished what exactly?

Personally, I like making the postseason. But then again, I'm a baseball fan.

StatenIslandYankee
12-13-05, 04:00 AM
As for Johnny Damon, the Yankees continue to like the 32-year-old leadoff hitter/center fielder, but only if agent Scott Boras comes off his demand for a seven-year contract. The Yankees wouldn't be averse to a four-year deal worth between $11 million and $12 million a year.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58605.htm
Do not go over 4 years!

JeffWeaverFan
12-13-05, 04:10 AM
As for Johnny Damon, the Yankees continue to like the 32-year-old leadoff hitter/center fielder, but only if agent Scott Boras comes off his demand for a seven-year contract. The Yankees wouldn't be averse to a four-year deal worth between $11 million and $12 million a year.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58605.htm
I wouldn't give him more than 2 years... The last 2 seasons of that 4 year deal will be a disaster.

nahzo
12-13-05, 04:12 AM
So by your logic it would have been better to have missed the postseason last year and still be missing big pieces of the rotation for this year in order to have a CFer this year. Yea that works for me.

How would we be missing pieces of the rotation? In the RJ trade we gave up two pitchers and got one in return.

StatenIslandYankee
12-13-05, 04:13 AM
I wouldn't give him more than 2 years... The last 2 seasons of that 4 year deal will be a disaster.
Not if he DH's.

Yankees1962
12-13-05, 04:58 AM
Not if he DH's.
The Yankees already have enough players that might be DHing in 2008/2009 like Giambi and Matsui.

Spiker101
12-13-05, 06:45 AM
So basically, you want to argue against facts. Ok.

Good luck with anybody taking you seriously. Defensive stats or any stats for that matter basically prove points. You cant really argue with them.

Not even the people who invented defensive metrics take them too seriously. That's why they're always regiggling them. A consensus of scouts remains the best, though still flawed, way to judge defense. That's the so-called book, and the book on Reed is as previously stated. That doesn't mean he can't learn to get better jumps or take better routes but it does mean that at the moment Reed is not all that much of a defensive upgrade over Crosby. And getting only slightly better defense at the cost of a starting pitcher on a team with a lot of injury questions in the rotation doesn't seem a wise move -- unless of course you intend to pick up either Millwood or Washburn, which I wouldn't oppose.

NYDCYankee
12-13-05, 07:02 AM
The Yankees already have enough players that might be DHing in 2008/2009 like Giambi and Matsui.

Is Giambi's contract up then? Matsui will be a better outfielder longer than Damon will.

Spiker101
12-13-05, 07:06 AM
take a minimum cut off of 200 IP, you know, a season-long starter.

only santana, pedro, carpenter, clemens, pettitte, willis, zambrano, peavy, smoltz, oswalt and buehrle had better seasons. maybe colon. but he struck out much fewer per 9 than the unit did.

Are saying you'd have rather had a pitcher who threw 225 innings with a 3.79 ERA than a pitcher who turned in a 2.86 over 192 innings? There are horses for courses, they say, but for me I prefer quality over quantity.

Yankees1962
12-13-05, 07:15 AM
Is Giambi's contract up then? Matsui will be a better outfielder longer than Damon will.
The Yankees have a buyout for Giambi's contract after the 2008 season and 2009 is the last season on Matsui's contract. Some will dispute your claims about Matsui being a better outfielder longer than Damon. Anyway, I don't want Damon, no matter if the contract is seven or four years.

noneckwilliams
12-13-05, 07:17 AM
I wouldn't give him more than 2 years... The last 2 seasons of that 4 year deal will be a disaster.

I recently read that Theo Epstein is firmly against "overpaying" for Damon. With Theo back in ascension at Yawkey Way I doubt the RS will go any farther on their current offer to Damon (believed to be 4/$40). The Globe also reports that the RS are exploring a Clement for Jeremy Reed type deal.

I'm getting a bad feeling that the Yankees will make a 5 year offer for Damon.

BeantownYankee
12-13-05, 08:00 AM
I recently read that Theo Epstein is firmly against "overpaying" for Damon. With Theo back in ascension at Yawkey Way I doubt the RS will go any farther on their current offer to Damon (believed to be 4/$40). The Globe also reports that the RS are exploring a Clement for Jeremy Reed type deal.

I'm getting a bad feeling that the Yankees will make a 5 year offer for Damon.
But what do the other two Sox GM's think?
:roflmao:

goin for 27
12-13-05, 08:09 AM
I wouldn't give him more than 2 years... The last 2 seasons of that 4 year deal will be a disaster.

3 years is fine. He may decline in year 3, but not that precipitously. He would still be a decent player. I don't like a 4th year, but 3 is more than fine.

Fabien Brandy
12-13-05, 10:45 AM
Reed coming into 2005 was viewed as being stretched defensively in CF and I think Safeco's large dimensions are skewing his range numbers in his favor so that he's viewed as elite defensively based solely on those stats. (Randy Winn and prior to that Mike Cameron also had excellent defensive stats playing CF in Safeco.)

I'd sign Damon for 4 years.

Spiker101
12-13-05, 01:41 PM
Reed coming into 2005 was viewed as being stretched defensively in CF and I think Safeco's large dimensions are skewing his range numbers in his favor so that he's viewed as elite defensively based solely on those stats. (Randy Winn and prior to that Mike Cameron also had excellent defensive stats playing CF in Safeco.)

I'd sign Damon for 4 years.

Yep but good luck trying to get the message across that defensive statistics should never the basis for making an important decision on a trade or free-agent signing. Damon has been relatively injury free throughout his career and can fill the leadoff spot, freeing Jeter to hit second and solve a lineup problem Torre has wrestled with for a couple of years now. Let's not forget the Yanks gain would be Boston's loss. If the Red Sox have to go to war with a lineup of Lorretta, Cora, Lowell, a declining Nixon and without Damon, you can pencil in the Jays as New York's chief competitor.
Reed on the other hand is a virtually unknown quantity whose acquisition will require the Yanks to put up a lot of cash and give up one of its starters. It's like everyone has forgotten that the Yanks have a 42-year-old pitcher, another pitcher whose body has the attibutes of a 62-year-old, and three other starters who all spent time on the DL last year.

NYDCYankee
12-14-05, 02:34 AM
Torre called Damon yesterday

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1214,0,4579772.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines


Before departing for Italy yesterday, Joe Torre made one more recruiting call on behalf of the Yankees.

According to multiple officials familiar with the situation, the Yankees' manager reached out to free-agent centerfielder Johnny Damon.

The Yankees have significant competition for Damon, though, besides his own Boston Red Sox.

According to multiple officials, Damon will travel to Los Angeles this weekend to meet with the Dodgers.

NYDCYankee
12-14-05, 03:09 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58742.htm

StatenIslandYankee
12-14-05, 04:16 AM
Looks like the Yankees are going after Damon hard.

NYDCYankee
12-14-05, 04:31 AM
Looks like the Yankees are going after Damon hard.


As I said over in the Reed thread, I think now that the Red Sox are talking to Seattle about a Clement for Reed swap it may be an indication that they think there chance of retaining Damon is dwindling.

Fabien Brandy
12-14-05, 04:37 AM
Based on the Milton Bradley trade, it seems like LA doesn't currently know what they're doing and could make Damon a silly offer as they did with Furcal. Maybe they'll think that Furcal is a leadoff man and offer less for Damon but I wouldn't be shocked if Damon goes to LA, which may work out best for the Yankees on two fronts (not in NY, not in Boston).

noneckwilliams
12-14-05, 06:59 AM
Looks like the Yankees are going after Damon hard.

I've been saying for 10 days that it's gonna take a 5 year offer to land Damon - and it appears the Yankees are dumb enuf to offer it. 5 years $60 million will be the deal.

The RS will NOT go beyond 4 years. The only hope of keeping Damon out of NY is that the Dodgers make a crazy offer.

Scott Boras should give John Heyman a nice Christmas gift for re-printing all the little spin points that he gave him.

Make the Pavano for Reed deal now.

NYDCYankee
12-14-05, 07:06 AM
I've been saying for 10 days that it's gonna take a 5 year offer to land Damon - and it appears the Yankees are dumb enuf to offer it. 5 years $60 million will be the deal.

The RS will NOT go beyond 4 years. The only hope of keeping Damon out of NY is that the Dodgers make a crazy offer.

I agree, watch it happen. The morning guys on WEEI are freaking out right now about the prospect of Damon and Nomar in the Yankee lineup.

noneckwilliams
12-14-05, 07:10 AM
I agree, watch it happen. The morning guys on WEEI are freaking out right now about the prospect of Damon and Nomar in the Yankee lineup.

They seem much more upset at the prospect of Nomar in NY than losing Damon. Giving Damon a 5 year contract is insane. Not signing Beltran is the gift that keeps giving.

Yankees13
12-14-05, 07:11 AM
I agree, watch it happen. The morning guys on WEEI are freaking out right now about the prospect of Damon and Nomar in the Yankee lineup.
But they'll be gleeful when Ortiz goes from first to home on Damon's arm on a gapper.

NYDCYankee
12-14-05, 07:13 AM
They seem much more upset at the prospect of Nomar in NY than losing Damon. Giving Damon a 5 year contract is insane. Not signing Beltran is the gift that keeps giving.

I think they are upset about the state of the FO and the obvious holes at CF, 1B and SS (if they don't resign Damon). Which I think are legitimate concerns.

Yankees13
12-14-05, 07:14 AM
They seem much more upset at the prospect of Nomar in NY than losing Damon. Giving Damon a 5 year contract is insane. Not signing Beltran is the gift that keeps giving.
17 million for a guy who would have been the 7th or 8th best hitter in the Yankee lineup last year? The idea isn't to sign such a bad contract that the issue is addressed by having no other choice or flexibility.

Yankeeah
12-14-05, 07:48 AM
They seem much more upset at the prospect of Nomar in NY than losing Damon. Giving Damon a 5 year contract is insane. Not signing Beltran is the gift that keeps giving.

Is Beltran a good player? Yes
Is he worth 17 million a year? God no

As much as I wanted Beltran, 17 is way too much for someone who has as .282 career average. People get fooled by Beltran's postseason. People don't realize that he hit .258 with the Astros last year.

NDBoston
12-14-05, 07:48 AM
I think they are upset about the state of the FO and the obvious holes at CF, 1B and SS (if they don't resign Damon). Which I think are legitimate concerns.

Dennis and Callahan are now baseball experts? They're trying to get ratings and making those comments makes the morons call. I can't wait for the day when WEEI goes away.

Luckily, baseball season doesn't start Jan 1st.

I'm prepared for Damon leaving too. I rarely agree with No Neck but I think he's got the scenario dead on. Damon's going to the Yankees IMO.

Mark19
12-14-05, 08:00 AM
I'm prepared for Damon leaving too. I rarely agree with No Neck but I think he's got the scenario dead on. Damon's going to the Yankees IMO.


I really don't think the Yankees want to drag around Damon's corpse when he is 36. I would be astonished if they went above 3/33 for him.

rightfielder21
12-14-05, 08:02 AM
Signing Damon would be a bad move, and would go against everything Cashman has spoke of ever since he took control....

YankeeFan1
12-14-05, 08:05 AM
Ugh. I can't believe the Yankees are serious about Damon. I can only hope that the Red Sox step up to the plate and give Damon a top deal. Let the Red Sox keep shaggy Damon.

ieddyi
12-14-05, 08:06 AM
Is Beltran a good player? Yes
Is he worth 17 million a year? God no

As much as I wanted Beltran, 17 is way too much for someone who has as .282 career average. People get fooled by Beltran's postseason. People don't realize that he hit .258 with the Astros last year.

Don't forget that he's an average CF also

NDBoston
12-14-05, 08:07 AM
I really don't think the Yankees want to drag around Damon's corpse when he is 36. I would be astonished if they went above 3/33 for him.

Why would the Yankees bother even offering that when a 4 year/40 million dollar offer is on the table from the Red Sox?

goin for 27
12-14-05, 08:29 AM
As I said over in the Reed thread, I think now that the Red Sox are talking to Seattle about a Clement for Reed swap it may be an indication that they think there chance of retaining Damon is dwindling.

Agreed. They leak that to drive down Damon's price to something that is acceptable. If they can't, then they pull the trigger on Reed.

noneckwilliams
12-14-05, 08:52 AM
I really don't think the Yankees want to drag around Damon's corpse when he is 36. I would be astonished if they went above 3/33 for him.


The Yankees will have to top Boston's offer to get Damon. The RS have offered 4 years. 5 years is what it will take if the Yankees really want this clown.

YankeeStripes
12-14-05, 08:55 AM
at this point, with all the nomar talk, i totally forgot about Damon.

wileedog
12-14-05, 09:34 AM
Is Beltran a good player? Yes
Is he worth 17 million a year? God no

As much as I wanted Beltran, 17 is way too much for someone who has as .282 career average. People get fooled by Beltran's postseason. People don't realize that he hit .258 with the Astros last year.

Damon for 5 years is a worse deal any way you slice it.

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 10:03 AM
at this point, with all the nomar talk, i totally forgot about Damon. That is probably because there is not as big of a market for Damon as Boras and Johnny would like to think ;)

Tifoso
12-14-05, 11:25 AM
Interesting news re: Damon and Nomar

http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks144551197dec14,0,6219155.story?coll=hc-headlines-sports




According to multiple officials familiar with the situation, the Yankees' manager reached out to free-agent centerfielder Johnny Damon.


Torre also revealed yesterday, at a Manhattan luncheon, that he has conversed with free agent Nomar Garciaparra, whom the Yankees would like to employ as a "super utility" player of sorts, making starts primarily at first base and designated hitter and occasionally everywhere else around the infield.

Now that would be one helluva line-up :eek: :D

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 11:33 AM
Interesting news re: Damon and Nomar

http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks144551197dec14,0,6219155.story?coll=hc-headlines-sports



Now that would be one helluva line-up :eek: :D Allright lets take a look see.

DISCLAIMER: Since Torre would probably bat Damon leadoff I will put him in that spot but I do acknowledge Jeter is the BETTER leadoff hitter.

L Damon CF
R Jeter SS
L Giambi 1B
R A-Rod 3B
R Sheff RF
L Matsui LF
R Nomar DH
S Posada C
L Cano 2B

I like how the lineup is almost lefty righty the whole way through. Of course this lineup could be this

with Jeter leading off

R Jeter
L Cano
R A-Rod
L Giambi
R Sheff
L Matsui
R Nomar
S Posada
L Damon

Of course Damon and Cano can be interchangeable but thats a straight up lefty/righty batting order, this seems like it could realy be a viscious lineup.

stephsamps
12-14-05, 11:40 AM
I would bat Damon 9th (even though I don't want him here) for that whole circular lineup thing, and have Nomar 2nd. Either way, killer lineup.

Jeter
Nomar
Giambi
Arod
Matsui
Sheff (again sorry Sheff)
Cano
Po
Damon

nyctalopia
12-14-05, 11:48 AM
I would bat Damon 9th (even though I don't want him here) for that whole circular lineup thing, and have Nomar 2nd. Either way, killer lineup.

Jeter
Nomar
Giambi
Arod
Matsui
Sheff (again sorry Sheff)
Cano
Po
Damon
I understand that Jeter is a better lead-off hitter than Damon, but NO ONE is a better 2nd hitter than Jeter. Damon is completely adequate in lead-off as he has proven. So, even with Nomar, Damon should lead off with Jeter in the 2nd spot. It would be stupid to give Cano and Posada more at-bats than Damon over the course of the year.

Damon
Jeter
Giambi
ARod
Sheffield
Matsui
Nomar
Cano
Posada (Cano and Posada are interchangeable)

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 12:01 PM
The thought of giving Damon a 4 year deal, much less a 5 year deal makes me sick. Did we really not learn our lessons from Bernie?

NYYWilliams51
12-14-05, 12:06 PM
The thought of giving Damon a 4 year deal, much less a 5 year deal makes me sick. Did we really not learn our lessons from Bernie?

What lesson? Would it have been better to not overpay for Bernie, let him go to Boston, and probably not win the World Series in 1999 and 2000? I know Bernie went into deep decline at the end of his deal, but that was the price to pay. The Yankees came out with a pair of championships so I'd say that contract worked out in the end.

Tifoso
12-14-05, 12:09 PM
What lesson? Would it have been better to not overpay for Bernie, let him go to Boston, and probably not win the World Series in 1999 and 2000? I know Bernie went into deep decline at the end of his deal, but that was the price to pay. The Yankees came out with a pair of championships so I'd say that contract worked out in the end.


Word.

I take an old Damon in 2011, for a WS in 2006 (and maybe 1 or 2 others)

whalers
12-14-05, 12:11 PM
What lesson? Would it have been better to not overpay for Bernie, let him go to Boston, and probably not win the World Series in 1999 and 2000? I know Bernie went into deep decline at the end of his deal, but that was the price to pay. The Yankees came out with a pair of championships so I'd say that contract worked out in the end.

When Bernie signed baseball was very different. Bloated contracts were the norm. Since then the Yankees I think have learned their lesson and wont be signing Damon long term like they did with Bernie. Also a 2006 Yankees squad w/o damon has a good chance of winning while it could be argued that the 99 and 2000 Yankees proabaly would not have won w/o Bernie.

MiamiKat
12-14-05, 12:12 PM
Word.

I take an old Damon in 2011, for a WS in 2006 (and maybe 1 or 2 others)
The problem is Damon will likely play like an old guy long before 2011.

StatenIslandYankee
12-14-05, 12:14 PM
A lineup with Jeter, Damon, Arod, Sheffield, Matsui, Cano, Nomar, Giambi, and Posada is something to drool over.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 12:15 PM
What lesson? Would it have been better to not overpay for Bernie, let him go to Boston, and probably not win the World Series in 1999 and 2000? I know Bernie went into deep decline at the end of his deal, but that was the price to pay. The Yankees came out with a pair of championships so I'd say that contract worked out in the end.
Your missing my point. It's not that I wouldn't make the deal over again - I would. We got 4 tremendous years out of Bernie and two allright ones (although bad defensive) in that deal. He started to decline at the age of 34 though. Damon will be 32 next season and there are better (defensively), cheaper, and most importantly younger options to Johnny Damon, who has ALREADY declined from 2004 to 2005 - when he fell apart at the end of the season. Pretty much, we signed Bernie when he was still in his prime and we'll be signing Damon during his decline years.

There is no sentimental value to Damon like there was for Bernie, either. We saw what happened with Bernie in his mid-30's as a CFer, so lets learn from that and not give Damon a 5 year deal. One last point, Damon in his best seasons (which are behind him) couldn't shine Bernie's shoes during his best (which he had many more of).

whalers
12-14-05, 12:16 PM
The problem is Damon will likely play like an old guy long before 2011.

Exactly. The thing about the Bernie contract was that Bernie had more good years in him at the time of the signing than Damon has if he were signed today.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 12:18 PM
Word.

I take an old Damon in 2011, for a WS in 2006 (and maybe 1 or 2 others)
An old Damon in 2011? Try an old Damon in 2008, 2009, and 2010. He has 2 more years left where he'll be an above average player that plays bad defense. (And that, by the way, does not guarentee any championships - let alone 3).

NYYWilliams51
12-14-05, 12:18 PM
Your missing my point. It's not that I wouldn't make the deal over again - I would. We got 4 tremendous years out of Bernie and two allright ones (although bad defensive) in that deal. He started to decline at the age of 34 though. Damon will be 32 next season and there are better (defensively), cheaper, and most importantly younger options to Johnny Damon, who has ALREADY declined from 2004 to 2005 - when he fell apart at the end of the season. Pretty much, we signed Bernie when he was still in his prime and we'll be signing Damon during his decline years.

There is no sentimental value to Damon like there was for Bernie, either. We saw what happened with Bernie in his mid-30's as a CFer, so lets learn from that and not give Damon a 5 year deal. One last point, Damon in his best seasons (which are behind him) couldn't shine Bernie's shoes during his best (which he had many more of).

Ah ok. I thought you were talking about a different lesson that could be learned. I am in agreement with you in that the kind of committment Damon would require is too much.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 12:19 PM
Exactly. The thing about the Bernie contract was that Bernie had more good years in him at the time of the signing than Damon has if he were signed today.
Bingo. That and the fact that Bernie was twice the player Damon is...

StatenIslandYankee
12-14-05, 12:21 PM
Think about it this way, if we can get Damon for a 4 year deal. Even if he declines on defense after say year 1 (2006), it's not like we can't use him for 3 years as a DH/corner OF and go after say Jones/Cameron/Hunter in 07

YankeeFan1
12-14-05, 12:23 PM
Cash: Just say, "no" to Johnny Damon.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 12:24 PM
Think about it this way, if we can get Damon for a 4 year deal. Even if he declines on defense after say year 1 (2006), it's not like we can't use him for 3 years as a DH/corner OF and go after say Jones/Cameron/Hunter in 07
Spending $12 million a year on a DH that will have an OPS+ of a little over 100 is a horrible business decision. Matsui is already going to play LF which leaves Damon to play RF. He doesn't have the arm for that. Lastly, the FO is not going to look like idiots after signing Damon to a 4 year deal by switching him to a corner outfield position or DH (which will be Giambi's spot anyways) after one season. Instead, we will live with his subpar defense and his average bat for the remainder of the contract.

edit: Also, if we are locked into Damon for $12 million per, there is not a chance in hell that we spend another $12 million for another CFer.

StatenIslandYankee
12-14-05, 12:25 PM
Not having an everyday DH like Ortiz gives you flexability for the DH role. Perhaps Posada takes over 1B after this year (if he declines), could slide Damon there (if he declines), Giambi can still manage 1B, perhaps Nomar reignites his career (and if we give him the option in 07, he's great tradebait). I just think this move is better than people think.

Jace
12-14-05, 12:27 PM
Think about it this way, if we can get Damon for a 4 year deal. Even if he declines on defense after say year 1 (2006), it's not like we can't use him for 3 years as a DH/corner OF and go after say Jones/Cameron/Hunter in 07

Ewwww.... Damon's declining bat in a corner spot? I really doubt he is going to duplicate 2004 as he gets older, and even last year's offense is below average for a corner outfielder.

It would probably be our only choice (even though it sucks) when Damon's legs fall off, and yet Torre would leave him in center because he won a championship and he's a natural center fielder and he has a belly full of guts and a beard full of jesus and such.

joshuaeagan
12-14-05, 12:34 PM
A lineup with Jeter, Damon, Arod, Sheffield, Matsui, Cano, Nomar, Giambi, and Posada is something to drool over.

Amagine the possibilities and production!!!!

Realistic Projections
Damon - .300 15 75
Jeter - .320 20 80
AROD - .320 40 120
Sheff - .300 30 110
Giambi - .280 30 110
Cano - .280 15 75
Nomar - .300 20 90
Posada - .270 25 85

:jaw-drop: :clapping: :D

StatenIslandYankee
12-14-05, 12:36 PM
Ewwww.... Damon's declining bat in a corner spot? I really doubt he is going to duplicate 2004 as he gets older, and even last year's offense is below average for a corner outfielder.

It would probably be our only choice (even though it sucks) when Damon's legs fall off, and yet Torre would leave him in center because he won a championship and he's a natural center fielder and he has a belly full of guts and a beard full of jesus and such.
I just like the idea of his bat in the lineup.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-14-05, 12:40 PM
I like Damon, I really do, but I would be afraid to give him more than a 3 year deal. In the field, he reminds me of Bernie Williams defensively, and I would hate to see $12 mil worth of player having trouble shagging routine flies in 4 years

goin for 27
12-14-05, 12:44 PM
An old Damon in 2011? Try an old Damon in 2008, 2009, and 2010. He has 2 more years left where he'll be an above average player that plays bad defense. (And that, by the way, does not guarentee any championships - let alone 3).

He does not play "bad" defense. His arm is poor. He has speed, reads the ball well, goes back on balls well, and catches everything he gets to. He has very positive UZR. Fenway has a difficult CF, and he plays it well. He will decline for sure, but it is just wrong to say that he plays bad defense now.

StatenIslandYankee
12-14-05, 12:50 PM
Our team would be a powerhouse of OBP

Damon .366
Jeter .389
Arod .421
Nomar .367
Giambi .440
Sheffield .379
Matsui .367
Posada .320
Cano .320

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 12:53 PM
Our team would be a powerhouse of OBP

Damon .366
Jeter .389
Arod .421
Nomar .367
Giambi .440
Sheffield .379
Matsui .367
Posada .320
Cano .320

Nomar, cleaning up?

Jace
12-14-05, 01:01 PM
Our team would be a powerhouse of OBP

Damon .366
Jeter .389
Arod .421
Nomar .367
Giambi .440
Sheffield .379
Matsui .367
Posada .320
Cano .320

Posada, .320 OBP?
I doubt Damon has a .366 OBP again. If he hits without power again but with a lower average its gonna be like .340

StatenIslandYankee
12-14-05, 01:02 PM
Nomar, cleaning up?
NO NO NO, that's not a batting order, I was just posting the players as they came across my mind.

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 01:03 PM
NO NO NO, that's not a batting order, I was just posting the players as they came across my mind.

Ohhhh. Well if you just move Nomar outta cleanup, it would probably work.

gold23
12-14-05, 01:07 PM
Any thought ever to giving Damon that 4-year deal, but heavily front-loading it? With Bernie and Brown coming off the books at their ridiculous numbers, an extra few million in the early years for Damon is not ludicrous.

Plus, you'd be paying more for better production. If the final year was at a $5 million figure, it becomes a lot more workable. You could part-time him, or make it much easier to cut the cord if he isn't producing.

I understand the total $ are the total $, but this approach would add flexibility to the back end when you would need it.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 01:20 PM
He does not play "bad" defense. His arm is poor. He has speed, reads the ball well, goes back on balls well, and catches everything he gets to. He has very positive UZR. Fenway has a difficult CF, and he plays it well. He will decline for sure, but it is just wrong to say that he plays bad defense now.
His zone rating has declined in each of the last 5 seasons and will continue to decline. With his horrible arm, I would consider him below average.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 01:21 PM
Any thought ever to giving Damon that 4-year deal, but heavily front-loading it? With Bernie and Brown coming off the books at their ridiculous numbers, an extra few million in the early years for Damon is not ludicrous.

Plus, you'd be paying more for better production. If the final year was at a $5 million figure, it becomes a lot more workable. You could part-time him, or make it much easier to cut the cord if he isn't producing.

I understand the total $ are the total $, but this approach would add flexibility to the back end when you would need it.
That would mean that this year we would have to pay something like $17 million and that doesn't work either.

gold23
12-14-05, 01:54 PM
That would mean that this year we would have to pay something like $17 million and that doesn't work either.

I could actually be more like $13 million. Essentially, bump each year a few million and pull it out of the last one.

Of course I'd prefer a three year deal if he signed, but if they front loaded the contract I could live with a 4. Reason being that even though he'd be overpaid in the first year or two, at least Yanks could reasonably expect solid performance.

goin for 27
12-14-05, 02:00 PM
I would bat Damon 9th (even though I don't want him him here)

I think the fact that you don't want him here is why you have him 9th. He finished 4th in the batting title race last year, and was .366 and .380 in OBP the last two years.

He is not a 9 hitter.

the_coach
12-14-05, 02:10 PM
I would rather go with Crosby, if our only other option is Damon at 4 X 12M (or whatever).

Tifoso
12-14-05, 03:54 PM
Bingo. That and the fact that Bernie was twice the player Damon is...


Absolutely. Only guys ahead of Bernie at that position are named DiMaggio and Mantle (and them being ahead is certainly arguable)


If Damon wins us a ring (or two) in the next two years, he can be a light hitting version of Bubba after that, as far as I am concerned. Look, the Yanks win a WS about every 4 years. If Damon nets us 1 in a 5 yr contract, then he's done his (Yankees) job.

gold23
12-14-05, 04:00 PM
Absolutely. Only guys ahead of Bernie at that position are named DiMaggio and Mantle (and them being ahead is certainly arguable)


If Damon wins us a ring (or two) in the next two years, he can be a light hitting version of Bubba after that, as far as I am concerned. Look, the Yanks win a WS about every 4 years. If Damon nets us 1 in a 5 yr contract, then he's done his (Yankees) job.

Wait a second.....Are you saying it is possible to make a case that Bernie was as good as Dimaggio or Mantle? Not a chance. Wasn't even close. Bernie was a very good- never great- all around player. Mantle and Dimaggio were always amongst the top 2 or 3 players in the sport.

noneckwilliams
12-14-05, 04:05 PM
The thought of giving Damon a 4 year deal, much less a 5 year deal makes me sick. Did we really not learn our lessons from Bernie?

It sickens me as well.

I expect you'll start hearing Randy Levine's name surfacing in regards to contract negotiations with Boras. That's when you'll know it's locked in stone - Damon will be a Yankee at some ridiculous price that will tie our hands down the line.

Giving Matsui 4 years was one thing - but giving Damon 5? They will be making a huge mistake.

Tifoso
12-14-05, 04:05 PM
Wait a second.....Are you saying it is possible to make a case that Bernie was as good as Dimaggio or Mantle? Not a chance. Wasn't even close. Bernie was a very good- never great- all around player. Mantle and Dimaggio were always amongst the top 2 or 3 players in the sport.
Without question. Bernie holds or is close to holding a lot of records, though (HR in PS, etc).

He is playing in a pitching diluted league, though. But so is every other modern player---and they're (for the most part) not posting his numbers.

Still say it goes 1.Joe 2.Mick 3.Bern :)

gold23
12-14-05, 04:16 PM
Without question. Bernie holds or is close to holding a lot of records, though (HR in PS, etc).

He is playing in a pitching diluted league, though. But so is every other modern player---and they're (for the most part) not posting his numbers.

Still say it goes 1.Joe 2.Mick 3.Bern :)


Bernie is close to holding a lot of records due to his longevity and the general time period he played in. Compare all three of the players to their peers (the only way to evaluate the quality of a player- Babe Ruth's 60 hr in '27 is a significantly more amazing accomplishment than Maris, McGwire, Bonds, etc.).

Bernie has never been the best player in the game- in fact, he's never been that close. He's always been All-Star caliber, but never ascended to the stage above that. Mantle and Dimaggio were the best players, or in the top several, in the game for almost all of their careers.

There's not one important thing that Bernie did as well as those two- he is a worse fielder, worse baserunner, and worse hitter than each of them. He holds or is close to holding a bunch of postseason records, but that is ALL on the fact the Yanks have been there for the past decade. His amount of games trumps just about everyone except for Jeter and a few Braves....

I love Bernie- but he couldn't hold Joe D's or Mantle's jock. Has nothing to do with assigning greatness to historical players- I think someone like A-rod is going to go down as one of the top players in history. But Bernie isn't that league.

Is Bernie the 3rd best CF in Yankee modern history? Probably, without looking. But he's a distant 3rd.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 04:21 PM
If Damon wins us a ring (or two) in the next two years, he can be a light hitting version of Bubba after that, as far as I am concerned. Look, the Yanks win a WS about every 4 years. If Damon nets us 1 in a 5 yr contract, then he's done his (Yankees) job.
The thing is this: Does Damon "win" us a WS? You see, I don't think he does. (edit: and by don't think he does, I don't mean we wouldn't win a WS with him on the team. I mean we would win one anyways going in a different - I.E. cheaper and younger - direction). I think spending $12 million for the next 4 (or 5) seasons on a declining player does not help us win a WS at all. I think that getting a cheaper player through a trade (Jeremy Reed, Jason Michaels) would help the team because not only do we not have to worry about their decline in a big contract, but we can also use that money in other places.

I'll put it this way. I think we improve our chances of winning WS's within the next 5 years is better if we do not sign Damon to a 5 year deal rather than if we do.

whalers
12-14-05, 04:22 PM
I love Bernie- but he couldn't hold Joe D's or Mantle's jock. Has nothing to do with assigning greatness to historical players- I think someone like A-rod is going to go down as one of the top players in history. But Bernie isn't that league.

Is Bernie the 3rd best CF in Yankee modern history? Probably, without looking. But he's a distant 3rd.

Harsh but true.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 04:25 PM
It sickens me as well.

I expect you'll start hearing Randy Levine's name surfacing in regards to contract negotiations with Boras. That's when you'll know it's locked in stone - Damon will be a Yankee at some ridiculous price that will tie our hands down the line.

Giving Matsui 4 years was one thing - but giving Damon 5? They will be making a huge mistake.
You just reminded me we gave Matsui 4 years... We better not trade our prospects because this is going to be one really old team in 4 years. Lets say we sign Damon.

A-Rod at about 34. Jeter at 35. Matsui at 36. Damon at 36. Giambi will have just finished up but in the previous year he'll have been 37 (with the other guys obviously being a year younger).

I sincerely fear for this team in a few years. That is why getting a youngster like Reed should be the priority. That's also why holding onto our prospects should also be the priority. I want this team to have continued success, and if we continue to sign 30+ year olds to long term contracts and trade away the youngsters for 30+ (or 40+) year olds, this team is going to be a disaster in a few seasons.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 04:26 PM
Harsh but true.
It's not really harsh when you consider we are talking about 2 of the top 15 ballplayers of all time. Bernie was a great player, but he's no top 15!

RhodeyYankee2638
12-14-05, 04:26 PM
We better not trade our prospects because this is going to be one really old team in 4 years.

Yeah we got some real goodies coming up through the ranks

Tifoso
12-14-05, 04:26 PM
Bernie is close to holding a lot of records due to his longevity and the general time period he played in. Compare all three of the players to their peers (the only way to evaluate the quality of a player- Babe Ruth's 60 hr in '27 is a significantly more amazing accomplishment than Maris, McGwire, Bonds, etc.).

Bernie has never been the best player in the game- in fact, he's never been that close. He's always been All-Star caliber, but never ascended to the stage above that. Mantle and Dimaggio were the best players, or in the top several, in the game for almost all of their careers.

There's not one important thing that Bernie did as well as those two- he is a worse fielder, worse baserunner, and worse hitter than each of them. He holds or is close to holding a bunch of postseason records, but that is ALL on the fact the Yanks have been there for the past decade. His amount of games trumps just about everyone except for Jeter and a few Braves....

I love Bernie- but he couldn't hold Joe D's or Mantle's jock. Has nothing to do with assigning greatness to historical players- I think someone like A-rod is going to go down as one of the top players in history. But Bernie isn't that league.

Is Bernie the 3rd best CF in Yankee modern history? Probably, without looking. But he's a distant 3rd.


Can not disagree with any of that :)

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 04:29 PM
Yeah we got some real goodies coming up through the ranks
In the lower levels we certainly do. And if we don't trade them as they get older, a couple of them will be ready just when we really need them.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-14-05, 04:31 PM
In the lower levels we certainly do. And if we don't trade them as they get older, a couple of them will be ready just when we really need them.

We have a few good pitchers, and I'm glad we are going that route. I'm not too thrilled about our batch of outfielders though

Tifoso
12-14-05, 04:32 PM
The thing is this: Does Damon "win" us a WS? You see, I don't think he does. I think spending $12 million for the next 4 (or 5) seasons on a declining player does not help us win a WS at all. I think that getting a cheaper player through a trade (Jeremy Reed, Jason Michaels) would help the team because not only do we not have to worry about their decline in a big contract, but we can also use that money in other places.

I'll put it this way. I think we improve our chances of winning WS's within the next 5 years is better if we do not sign Damon to a 5 year deal rather than if we do.

I see your point. If I was GM, I'd be out after another stud starter--not that there are any readily avaliable.

We will have to agree to disagree.

The Damon/Nomar "signings" would explain the Yanks quietness, thusfar.

Then we can trade one of the billion starting pitchers for 1-2 more stud relievers.

And then we're set...at least for this season.

ReggieBar
12-14-05, 04:34 PM
We have a few good pitchers, and I'm glad we are going that route. I'm not too thrilled about our batch of outfielders though


We have some very young, talented OFers. Timmy Battle (despite the 195 K's), Austin Jackson, Jose Tabata and I feel that C J Henry will become an OFer before too long.

All way off, but there is talent there.

Tifoso
12-14-05, 04:35 PM
Not to mention, that with Nomar, the utility guy would be an OF utility guy.

Bubba, call the office. :)

RhodeyYankee2638
12-14-05, 04:36 PM
We have some very young, talented OFers. Timmy Battle (despite the 195 K's), Austin Jackson, Jose Tabata and I feel that C J Henry will become an OFer before too long.

All way off, but there is talent there.

Thats the thing, they are 2-3 years off. If you frontload a contract to J.D., there is a possibility we can dump him in 2-3 years if we have a great prospect coming up through the ranks

Maynerd
12-14-05, 04:36 PM
Ever wonder what Mickey's and Joe's stats would look like if there were three rounds of playoffs back then? I love Bernie, but his numbers wouldn't even be close.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 04:36 PM
We have a few good pitchers, and I'm glad we are going that route. I'm not too thrilled about our batch of outfielders though
I like Austin Jackson, Tim Battle, and Jose Tabata a lot. If one pans out, there we go for CF. Plus, CJ Henry might make the switch to CF, but if not, I like him as an overall prospect. (One guy that got away that I wish we could have signed was our 49th overall pick Diallo Fon). Either way, I think we are in good shape there. Plus, I'm a fan of Brett Gardner and hopefully he's closer than the other guys. This next year will be huge for all of these guys.

WebsterMulligan
12-14-05, 04:39 PM
I

Then we can trade one of the billion starting pitchers for 1-2 more stud relievers.


The last time I counted, the Yankee's have only seven starters, many of which are questionable and prone to injuries. The Yankees need to be deep in this area, IMO.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 04:40 PM
I see your point. If I was GM, I'd be out after another stud starter--not that there are any readily avaliable.

We will have to agree to disagree.

The Damon/Nomar "signings" would explain the Yanks quietness, thusfar.

Then we can trade one of the billion starting pitchers for 1-2 more stud relievers.

And then we're set...at least for this season.
I'm all for the Nomar signing because it is a 1 year deal. But if we are going to trade a starting pitcher, I'd rather get 1 bullpen arm and a CFer.

If we could sign Damon to a 3 year deal, I'd go for that, but I have serious issues about going more than that. I didn't want to do it with Matsui but I guess we needed to to get the deal done. One player going that extra year is enough. Another one with a huge salary could be disastrous.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 04:42 PM
The last time I counted, the Yankee's have only seven starters, many of which are questionable and prone to injuries. The Yankees need to be deep in this area, IMO.
I completely agree with you there, but I'd still take the risk to improve the CF situation. We'd still have Small and Henn as backups.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 04:43 PM
Without question. Bernie holds or is close to holding a lot of records, though (HR in PS, etc).

He is playing in a pitching diluted league, though. But so is every other modern player---and they're (for the most part) not posting his numbers.

Still say it goes 1.Joe 2.Mick 3.Bern :)

I think you've got to swap 1 and 2. DiMaggio was great, but Mantle is easily the greatest CF we've ever had, and maybe the greatest ever (Mays is the only one who has a legit argument otherwise).

I'm hoping that Bernie can still hit a bit as a PH and occasional DH. I don't know if he truly belongs in the HOF, but I know he deserves it a lot more than some of the guys that are in there (not that that means he deserves to get in necessarily).

Earle Combs was another great one. Although I'd put Bernie above him.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 04:44 PM
I completely agree with you there, but I'd still take the risk to improve the CF situation. We'd still have Small and Henn as backups.

Don't forget DeSalvo either.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 04:46 PM
Thats the thing, they are 2-3 years off. If you frontload a contract to J.D., there is a possibility we can dump him in 2-3 years if we have a great prospect coming up through the ranks

That's the only way this could make any sense from a baseball or business standpoint. Personally, unless Damon regains his former range, I don't think he'll be worth it for even one season.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 04:46 PM
I think you've got to swap 1 and 2. DiMaggio was great, but Mantle is easily the greatest CF we've ever had, and maybe the greatest ever (Mays is the only one who has a legit argument otherwise).

I'm hoping that Bernie can still hit a bit as a PH and occasional DH. I don't know if he truly belongs in the HOF, but I know he deserves it a lot more than some of the guys that are in there (not that that means he deserves to get in necessarily).

Earle Combs was another great one. Although I'd put Bernie above him.
Completely agree. I rate Mickey as the #3 best player of all time after Babe and Wagner. (And he is arguably behind Oscar Charleston). DiMaggio is at the end of my top 15.

I also place Bernie above Combs. I think Bernie is, without a doubt, the third best CFer in the history of the Yankees.

WebsterMulligan
12-14-05, 04:47 PM
I completely agree with you there, but I'd still take the risk to improve the CF situation. We'd still have Small and Henn as backups.

No argument regarding the CF situation, but Small will likely turn back into a pumpkin at any time and Henn has not yet proved he can make the transition from AAA to the majors.

Tifoso
12-14-05, 04:47 PM
The last time I counted, the Yankee's have only seven starters, many of which are questionable and prone to injuries. The Yankees need to be deep in this area, IMO.

Hyperbole ;)

You're right, obviously. We need 6 guys, to be safe. We can trade away one of 'em (Small, Chacon, Pavano ( :( ) ?), if it means getting a relief guy and an inning eater (ie 5th starter)

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 04:48 PM
No argument regarding the CF situation, but Small will likely turn back into a pumpkin at any time and Henn has not yet proved he can make the transition from AAA to the majors.
Yeah, it's a risk. I originally wanted to trade Pavano for a CFer and then sign someone to replace him. But, the pitching market is so ridiculous now I don't know if that is a possibility.

WebsterMulligan
12-14-05, 04:49 PM
Yeah, it's a risk. I originally wanted to trade Pavano for a CFer and then sign someone to replace him. But, the pitching market is so ridiculous now I don't know if that is a possibility.

Agreed. We could re-sign Jeff Weaver. ;)

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 04:51 PM
Completely agree. I rate Mickey as the #3 best player of all time after Babe and Wagner. (And he is arguably behind Oscar Charleston). DiMaggio is at the end of my top 15.

I also place Bernie above Combs. I think Bernie is, without a doubt, the third best CFer in the history of the Yankees.

Hmmm, I had never even heard of Oscar Charleston. Do you ever go to BTF? They have some cool discussions there called Hall of Merit I think and they actually have guys who will put together major league equivalents for Negro League stats and guys who missed time due to the war.

Tifoso
12-14-05, 04:52 PM
Yeah, it's a risk. I originally wanted to trade Pavano for a CFer and then sign someone to replace him. But, the pitching market is so ridiculous now I don't know if that is a possibility.

But it would be ridiculous in our favor. :D

If we traded Small (most likely I'd say--Moose and RJ are locks, Carl too much of a question mark for another team (hopefully), ditto Wright--- and Chacon, Wang have earned the right to stay), we could conceivably get a couple of good pen arms and a long guy, maybe.

RJ
Moose
Pavano
Wang
Chacon
Wright (6th guy/LR)

Doesn't look half bad, actually.

ReggieBar
12-14-05, 04:53 PM
Hmmm, I had never even heard of Oscar Charleston. Do you ever go to BTF? They have some cool discussions there called Hall of Merit I think and they actually have guys who will put together major league equivalents for Negro League stats and guys who missed time due to the war.


What is BTF?

ReggieBar
12-14-05, 04:55 PM
Completely agree. I rate Mickey as the #3 best player of all time after Babe and Wagner. (And he is arguably behind Oscar Charleston). DiMaggio is at the end of my top 15.

I also place Bernie above Combs. I think Bernie is, without a doubt, the third best CFer in the history of the Yankees.


How can Joe D be at the end of your 15? he was the perfect ballplayer.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 04:55 PM
What is BTF?

Sorry, http://baseballthinkfactory.org

I found this quote about Charleston which I found pretty cool.

"Some people asked me, 'Why are you playing so close to the right field foul line?' What they didn't know was that Charleston covered all three fields and my responsibility was to make sure of balls down the line and those in foul territory."
Dave Malarcher

ReggieBar
12-14-05, 04:56 PM
Sorry, http://baseballthinkfactory.org

I found this quote about Charleston which I found pretty cool.

"Some people asked me, 'Why are you playing so close to the right field foul line?' What they didn't know was that Charleston covered all three fields and my responsibility was to make sure of balls down the line and those in foul territory."
Dave Malarcher

Thanks WG. I will have a look.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 04:58 PM
How can Joe D be at the end of your 15? he was the perfect ballplayer.

I'd have to say that that seems pretty accurate to me. DiMaggio is an all-time great but I can think of at least 5 CFers I'd have to take over him.

Tifoso
12-14-05, 04:58 PM
How can Joe D be at the end of your 15? he was the perfect ballplayer.


Agreed.

He gets overlooked for his D, because he made it look so effortless.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 04:59 PM
Thanks WG. I will have a look.

Here's the direct link to the part I was talking about.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/

23and2
12-14-05, 05:00 PM
If the rumors are true, and NY is going to be aggressive for Damon with an offer for 4 years, then would you say it's going to take 5 years from the Red Sox to keep him? Given that Damon is already annoyed with the Red Sox for not getting his deal done Varitek style, I wonder if the money were equal if he'd stay with the Red Sox.

stephsamps
12-14-05, 05:01 PM
I think the fact that you don't want him here is why you have him 9th. He finished 4th in the batting title race last year, and was .366 and .380 in OBP the last two years.

He is not a 9 hitter.

No... the reason I put him 9th is because Jeter is a better lead off hitter. I like Nomar in the 2 spot and the rest of the guys flow. I mean, I have Shef SIXTH in the line up. By Damon batting 9th you have a circular line up with Damon able to get on base for Jeter. Also speed at the top and bottom.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 05:01 PM
Hmmm, I had never even heard of Oscar Charleston. Do you ever go to BTF? They have some cool discussions there called Hall of Merit I think and they actually have guys who will put together major league equivalents for Negro League stats and guys who missed time due to the war.
I've gone to BTF here and there, but not much. I'll check it out more.

I don't know much about Charleston, but I've looked at some of his numbers and read quotes about him and he seems to be pretty amazing. Plus, I think it is pretty obvious that there were Negro League players that were just as good, and probably even better than guys that were in the majors.

And I quote:
"It's not like one person saw Oscar Charleston play and said that he was the gretest player ever. Lots of people said he was the greatest player they ever saw. John McGraw, who knew something about baseball, reportedly said that."

"Regarded by many knowledgeable people as the greatest baesball player who ever lived. Buck O'Neil said that Willie Mays was the greatest major league player he ever saw, but Charleston was better. According to O'Neil, 'Charlie was a tremendous left-handed hitter who could also bunt, steal a hundred basses a year and cover centerfield as well as anyone ever before him or since... he was like Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth and Tris Speaker rolled into one.' (emphasis in bold mine)...
Paige said 'He used to play right in back of second base. He would outrun the ball. You had to see him to believe him.'
Hollis Thurston barnstormed against him, said that he hit a homerun every night."
(All from the Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract).

noneckwilliams
12-14-05, 05:03 PM
If the rumors are true, and NY is going to be aggressive for Damon with an offer for 4 years, then would you say it's going to take 5 years from the Red Sox to keep him? Given that Damon is already annoyed with the Red Sox for not getting his deal done Varitek style, I wonder if the money were equal if he'd stay with the Red Sox.

IMO in his heart he prefers to stay with the RS. All things being equal he'd stay. But if the Yankees get involved all things won't be equal. 5 years $60 mil is my guess.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 05:04 PM
I've gone to BTF here and there, but not much. I'll check it out more.

I don't know much about Charleston, but I've looked at some of his numbers and read quotes about him and he seems to be pretty amazing. Plus, I think it is pretty obvious that there were Negro League players that were just as good, and probably even better than guys that were in the majors.

And I quote:
"It's not like one person saw Oscar Charleston play and said that he was the gretest player ever. Lots of people said he was the greatest player they ever saw. John McGraw, who knew something about baseball, reportedly said that."

"Regarded by many knowledgeable people as the greatest baesball player who ever lived. Buck O'Neil said that Willie Mays was the greatest major league player he ever saw, but Charleston was better. According to O'Neil, 'Charlie was a tremendous left-handed hitter who could also bunt, steal a hundred basses a year and cover centerfield as well as anyone ever before him or since... he was like Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth and Tris Speaker rolled into one.' (emphasis in bold mine)...
Paige said 'He used to play right in back of second base. He would outrun the ball. You had to see him to believe him.'
Hollis Thurston barnstormed against him, said that he hit a homerun every night."
(All from the Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract).

Thanks, JWF. When I go home for Christmas I'll have to check him out in my BJ Historical Abstract.

NDBoston
12-14-05, 05:05 PM
IMO in his heart he prefers to stay with the RS. All things being equal he'd stay. But if the Yankees get involved all things won't be equal. 5 years $60 mil is my guess.

I think that's exactly what would happen. I don't see the Red Sox going higher than 4 years 44-48 million range. Yankees go 5 and he picks them.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 05:06 PM
How can Joe D be at the end of your 15? he was the perfect ballplayer.
Well, if someone was at the end of the best 15 players of all time, I think that's pretty damn good.

Ahead of him I've got: Ruth, Wagner, Mantle, Charleston, Ted Williams, Mays, Cobb, Gibson, Speaker, Gehrig, Musial, Aaron, Foxx, and Pops Lloyd. Although that was my list 3 months ago and is subject to change - and it will.

I started a thread on this a while ago if you care to name your top 15. http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=86656&page=1&pp=20

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 05:07 PM
I think that's exactly what would happen. I don't see the Red Sox going higher than 4 years 44-48 million range. Yankees go 5 and he picks them.

And I end up in the hospital for punching multiple walls. I'm going to be sick if we sign Damon...unless it's for 1 year, $5 million.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 05:09 PM
Don't forget DeSalvo either.
Yeah, you're right. And, maybe DePaula could give us innings if we really needed? He should be fully recovered from TJ surgery by then...

Tifoso
12-14-05, 05:09 PM
And I end up in the hospital for punching multiple walls. I'm going to be sick if we sign Damon...unless it's for 1 year, $5 million.


Give me your address. I'll send you a barf bag and a boxing glove. :)

WebsterMulligan
12-14-05, 05:09 PM
IMO in his heart he prefers to stay with the RS. All things being equal he'd stay. But if the Yankees get involved all things won't be equal. 5 years $60 mil is my guess.

I don't believe that the Yanks will go that high to obtain Damon.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 05:10 PM
Give me your address. I'll send you a barf bag and a boxing glove. :)

That's not a good idea. I'd probably go crazy and try to attack Jesus with them. And I don't want to spend anytime in jail. ;)

Tifoso
12-14-05, 05:11 PM
I don't believe that the Yanks will go that high to obtain Damon.

5/50 or 4/48??

WebsterMulligan
12-14-05, 05:12 PM
Well, if someone was at the end of the best 15 players of all time, I think that's pretty damn good.

Ahead of him I've got: Ruth, Wagner, Mantle, Charleston, Ted Williams, Mays, Cobb, Gibson, Speaker, Gehrig, Musial, Aaron, Foxx, and Pops Lloyd. Although that was my list 3 months ago and is subject to change - and it will.

I started a thread on this a while ago if you care to name your top 15. http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=86656&page=1&pp=20

Did Charleston play in the Negro Leagues? In what era did he play?

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 05:12 PM
Agreed. We could re-sign Jeff Weaver. ;)
I think I'd be the only Yankee fan that would like that. God this username was a bad choice... When I made it I had some sort of theory that he would be great for us in 2004 and my username would look ingenious. Then he was traded.

WebsterMulligan
12-14-05, 05:13 PM
5/50 or 4/48??

5/60 as suggested by noneck.

Mark19
12-14-05, 05:13 PM
Ugh, I can't stomach the idea of watching Damon patrol CF into his mid-30s. The last time baserunners were scared to run on a Yankee CF's arm, the first Gulf war had just finished.
I don't want to picture the forced excitement from Yankee fans when he arrives at the stadium with a buzz cut and no beard. He stutters through a paragraph of prepared remarks about how great the Yankees are and how it was always his dream to play for them.
His first year he might be able to give us .305-10-70 with a dozen stolen bases but his defense will slowly deteriorate. By the end of the 4 year deal we were suckered into, we will wonder how we could have passed on waiting for guys like Rowand, Wells and Hunter just because we needed to make a splash in 05.
Jeter, Matsui, Posada and Giambi will all be in their mid to late 30s by the times their contracts expire. The last thing we need is another 36 year old carcass getting paid $12 million in 2010.

Signing Johnny Damon is the antithesis of everything Cashman claims to be doing for this ballclub. I hope Christmas comes early and he gets locked up by Boston or LA. The sooner Damon is off the market, the sooner the Yanks can realize that it isn't a Bubba or Damon scenario. Come January they will be forced to get more creative and reel in a CF who won't handicapp our chances of getting a long-term solution in a year or two.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 05:14 PM
Well, if someone was at the end of the best 15 players of all time, I think that's pretty damn good.

Ahead of him I've got: Ruth, Wagner, Mantle, Charleston, Ted Williams, Mays, Cobb, Gibson, Speaker, Gehrig, Musial, Aaron, Foxx, and Pops Lloyd. Although that was my list 3 months ago and is subject to change - and it will.

I started a thread on this a while ago if you care to name your top 15. http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=86656&page=1&pp=20

I'll have to weigh in on there. I don't want to clog up this thread too much, but I think I'd put Williams 2nd. Using BP's all time EqR he created about 100 more than Mantle and Wagner. And just imagine if he hadn't missed all that time during his prime due to war! Of course the fact that he was a corner OF, and not a good one at that, instead of a 2B or CF takes away quite a bit of his advantage.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 05:15 PM
Did Charleston play in the Negro Leagues? In what era did he play?

Here's one page I've found on him so far that has decent info.

http://www.negroleaguebaseball.com/players/Charleston.html

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 05:16 PM
Did Charleston play in the Negro Leagues? In what era did he play?
Yes, he did. He played mostly in the 20's.

WebsterMulligan
12-14-05, 05:16 PM
I'll have to weigh in on there. I don't want to clog up this thread too much, but I think I'd put Williams 2nd. Using BP's all time EqR he created about 100 more than Mantle and Wagner. And just imagine if he hadn't missed all that time during his prime due to war! Of course the fact that he was a corner OF, and not a good one at that, instead of a 2B or CF takes away quite a bit of his advantage.

One can only imagine what Ted William's numbers might have been, had he not missed nearly five years in his prime, due to military service. :eek:

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 05:21 PM
I'll have to weigh in on there. I don't want to clog up this thread too much, but I think I'd put Williams 2nd. Using BP's all time EqR he created about 100 more than Mantle and Wagner. And just imagine if he hadn't missed all that time during his prime due to war! Of course the fact that he was a corner OF, and not a good one at that, instead of a 2B or CF takes away quite a bit of his advantage.
I figured that Mickey's defense outweighed Williams' better OBP. Williams was a horrendous defensive outfielder.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 05:28 PM
I figured that Mickey's defense outweighed Williams' better OBP. Williams was a horrendous defensive outfielder.

I don't trust BP's fielding metrics really, but they do have Williams as right around average in LF. For old time players I'll trust scouting reports more though, and they weren't exactly kind to him, were they?

I think if you look at just their raw numbers that Mantle might be ahead of Williams due to position and defense, but I think when you consider that Williams never got to play his age 24-26 seasons because he was in the war. Add in that the year before he went into the service he put up a .356/.499/.648 line and the year he returned he put up a .342/.497/.667 line. Over those 3 years he would have created at least 475 more runs than he did, pushing his advantage over Mantle on offense to about 600 runs. I've still got to go with Williams here.

gold23
12-14-05, 05:29 PM
Damon is a pretty good ballplayer. His defense has suffered, but he's acceptable out there for the most part. Offensively, he's very gifted. I think he hits for more power in YS than he did in Boston, based on his swing and field configurations.

I do agree he'd be a shell of his current self in four years- I would certainly never go to 5. But as I mentioned earlier, I think you get a very good player for at least two years, and probably at least an acceptable player in year 3. If he ends up as a DH at some point, or more likely a corner OF like he has played in the past, he would be fine.

gold23
12-14-05, 05:30 PM
One can only imagine what Ted William's numbers might have been, had he not missed nearly five years in his prime, due to military service. :eek:

Or if the Yanks and Sox made the Williams/Dimaggio deal? Yankee Stadium in those years was absolute death to righthanded hitters. Just impossible. And Williams was always a dead pull hitter, where the monster never helped him and their large RF expanse hurt.

Talk about two players perfectly tailored to the opposition's ballpark.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 05:37 PM
I don't trust BP's fielding metrics really, but they do have Williams as right around average in LF. For old time players I'll trust scouting reports more though, and they weren't exactly kind to him, were they?

I think if you look at just their raw numbers that Mantle might be ahead of Williams due to position and defense, but I think when you consider that Williams never got to play his age 24-26 seasons because he was in the war. Add in that the year before he went into the service he put up a .356/.499/.648 line and the year he returned he put up a .342/.497/.667 line. Over those 3 years he would have created at least 475 more runs than he did, pushing his advantage over Mantle on offense to about 600 runs. I've still got to go with Williams here.
We'll have to continue this elsewhere, but let me a CFer putting up Mickey's numbers is more valuable than a LFer (with subpar defense - and the scouting reports were not kind to him I believe) putting up Williams' numbers.

goin for 27
12-14-05, 05:38 PM
His zone rating has declined in each of the last 5 seasons and will continue to decline. With his horrible arm, I would consider him below average.

Even if his zone ratings are above average?

This is very flawed logic, it is akin to saying at the start of 2005 that ARod's OPS has declined for 5 straight years, so he is a below average hitter.

Damon has a weak arm, but is definitely not a weak defender overall.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 05:39 PM
Or if the Yanks and Sox made the Williams/Dimaggio deal? Yankee Stadium in those years was absolute death to righthanded hitters. Just impossible. And Williams was always a dead pull hitter, where the monster never helped him and their large RF expanse hurt.

Talk about two players perfectly tailored to the opposition's ballpark.
I'm pretty sure that Williams used the Green Monster to perfection.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 05:40 PM
Even if his zone ratings are above average?

This is very flawed logic, it is akin to saying at the start of 2005 that ARod's OPS has declined for 5 straight years, so he is a below average hitter.

Damon has a weak arm, but is definitely not a weak defender overall.
What is an average zone rating for a CFer? I don't think his zone rating is above average.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 05:41 PM
Even if his zone ratings are above average?

This is very flawed logic, it is akin to saying at the start of 2005 that ARod's OPS has declined for 5 straight years, so he is a below average hitter.

Damon has a weak arm, but is definitely not a weak defender overall.

Damon was 9 runs below average using ZR for 2005.

Yankee Steve
12-14-05, 05:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that Williams used the Green Monster to perfection.
Nope... As the previous poster said, Williams was strictly a pull hitter. Didn't you ever see pictures of the William's shift that Bobby Doerr, the player-manager of the Cleveland Indians used on him? Never hit the ball the other way.

mrbawm
12-14-05, 06:12 PM
If these rumors are true this front office is pathetic, no two ways about it. Pathetic.

goin for 27
12-14-05, 06:12 PM
Damon was 9 runs below average using ZR for 2005.

First of all, you are describing UZR, or Ultimate Zone Rating, not basic ZR which is measured in a percentage, not runs.

As for UZR, can you provide a link for 2005? My understanding was that 2005 UZR's were not out yet, I have looked, but cannot find.

The last published were 2000-2003, where Damon was +19 for the period. I certainly do not think that Damon had that precipitous of a decline from then to last year. However, if you can post the link, I would be more than interested to take a look.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-14-05, 06:19 PM
Has there been an offer, I tried looking through the thread, why is everyone upset?

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 06:21 PM
If these rumors are true this front office is pathetic, no two ways about it. Pathetic. Which rumors, the four years? Is that what has you fired up? I'm not knocking you I just can't figure out what the hell is pathetic by browsing through the posts.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-14-05, 06:24 PM
Which rumors, the four years? Is that what has you fired up? I'm not knocking you I just can't figure out what the hell is pathetic by browsing through the posts.

Thats what I was trying to figure out my damn self...

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 06:26 PM
Thats what I was trying to figure out my damn self...
I know! Javy and I are in the dark over here, someone enlighten us on what is so pathetic. I see debate about Ted Williams and Mantle, some refrences to the Negro League but nothing that is really "pathetic".

goin for 27
12-14-05, 06:30 PM
What is an average zone rating for a CFer? I don't think his zone rating is above average.

Wait, didn't you just post that Damon has had a declining ZR, so coupled with a weak arm he is a BELOW average defender? Now you are asking what IS average? ;)

I don't know what the mean number would be. I do know that Damon's ZR was higher than Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay, 2 names bandied about here.

Jeremy Reed was tops, and yes, I certainly believe that there are other CF'er that are better defensively than Damon. Aaron Rowand, Grady Sizemore, etc. However, again, Damon is not BELOW average defensively, by any stretch. If Bernie could track down the balls that Damon can, you could live with the weak arm. Bernie was tough because first he could run nothing down, AND he then could not get the ball back in.

By the way, Zone Rating is pretty basic, if you really wish to use only one defensive metric, UZR is certainly better.

mrbawm
12-14-05, 06:39 PM
Which rumors, the four years? Is that what has you fired up? I'm not knocking you I just can't figure out what the hell is pathetic by browsing through the posts.

The 4 year rumors with the speculation that the Yankees would be desperate enough to go 5.

I apologize, I didn't realize I was so vague and not making much sense at all in the context of the thread.

I Love Wang
12-14-05, 07:00 PM
Wait, didn't you just post that Damon has had a declining ZR, so coupled with a weak arm he is a BELOW average defender? Now you are asking what IS average? ;)

I don't know what the mean number would be. I do know that Damon's ZR was higher than Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay, 2 names bandied about here.

Jeremy Reed was tops, and yes, I certainly believe that there are other CF'er that are better defensively than Damon. Aaron Rowand, Grady Sizemore, etc. However, again, Damon is not BELOW average defensively, by any stretch. If Bernie could track down the balls that Damon can, you could live with the weak arm. Bernie was tough because first he could run nothing down, AND he then could not get the ball back in.

By the way, Zone Rating is pretty basic, if you really wish to use only one defensive metric, UZR is certainly better.

Damon ranks below average by ZR, UZR, and FRAA.

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 07:02 PM
The 4 year rumors with the speculation that the Yankees would be desperate enough to go 5.

I apologize, I didn't realize I was so vague and not making much sense at all in the context of the thread.
It's cool and I agree with you that the possibilty of a 5th year is pathetic, I also don't like 4 years but 5 is really pathetic.

goin for 27
12-14-05, 07:09 PM
Damon ranks below average by ZR, UZR, and FRAA.

:link:

Very interested in the UZR. Especially 2005 UZR. Can you pleasepost the link to these stats? I just don't think that he is. He certainly would not even deserve 3/30 if he is this weak defensively.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 07:17 PM
god, i hope they don't sign him

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-14-05, 07:32 PM
:link:

Very interested in the UZR. Especially 2005 UZR. Can you pleasepost the link to these stats? I just don't think that he is. He certainly would not even deserve 3/30 if he is this weak defensively.


This is the only 2005 UZR available, I don't think Damon's has been done...

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/major_league_baseball_first_timers_highlight_al_gold_gloves/

Scroll down to post 39

goin for 27
12-14-05, 07:41 PM
This is the only 2005 UZR available, I don't think Damon's has been done...

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/major_league_baseball_first_timers_highlight_al_gold_gloves/

Scroll down to post 39

You are exactly correct, which is why I was asking for the link.

Espinosa's Glasses
12-14-05, 07:43 PM
I would comment on the UZR but the ZOOMA is lower than the IMPR

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 07:48 PM
Nope... As the previous poster said, Williams was strictly a pull hitter. Didn't you ever see pictures of the William's shift that Bobby Doerr, the player-manager of the Cleveland Indians used on him? Never hit the ball the other way.
I thought that that shift was first used by the Cardinals in the 1946 WS. I also thought that he still took the ball the other way when he hit it on the fly. I could be completely wrong about the latter, but I'm pretty sure that the former is correct.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 07:51 PM
First of all, you are describing UZR, or Ultimate Zone Rating, not basic ZR which is measured in a percentage, not runs.

As for UZR, can you provide a link for 2005? My understanding was that 2005 UZR's were not out yet, I have looked, but cannot find.

The last published were 2000-2003, where Damon was +19 for the period. I certainly do not think that Damon had that precipitous of a decline from then to last year. However, if you can post the link, I would be more than interested to take a look.

Nope, I'm not. You can figure out how many runs a player was above or below average using ZR as well.

Wang's Groundballs
12-14-05, 07:55 PM
NAME TEAM(S) G O (+/-) RUNS RANGE+
Reed, Jeremy SEA 127.9 18 15 144
Rowand, Aaron CWS 152.1 17 14 140
DeJesus, David KC 111.7 8 7 124
Patterson, C. CHC 109.7 7 6 124
Clark, Brady MIL 141.7 7 6 116
Ellison, Jason SF 65.9 3 3 114
Wells, Vernon TOR 150.9 5 4 112
Edmonds, Jim STL 128.1 4 4 112
Beltran, Carlos NYM 143.3 5 4 111
Matos, Luis BAL 110.0 3 3 110
Wilkerson, Brad WAS 84.4 3 2 110
Sizemore, Grady CLE 152.2 4 3 109
Matthews, Gary TEX 94.0 2 2 108
Pierre, Juan FLO 153.7 2 2 106
Michaels, Jason PHI 59.6 1 1 106
Logan, Nook DET 97.1 2 1 105
Bradley, Milton LAD 69.8 1 1 105
Wilson, Preston COL/WAS 118.9 1 1 102
Lofton, Kenny PHI 82.3 0 0 100
Roberts, Dave SD 100.2 0 0 99
Jones, Andruw ATL 151.8 -1 -1 97
Hunter, Torii MIN 90.4 -2 -2 92
Sullivan, Cory COL 68.7 -2 -2 90
Tavarez, Wily HOU 139.3 -5 -4 88
Damon, Johnny BOS 136.1 -11 -9 75
Hollins, Damon TB 68.8 -7 -6 68
Williams, B. NYY 96.0 -10 -8 63
Finley, Steve LAA 99.6 -12 -10 62
Kotsay, Mark OAK 131.6 -17 -15 51
Griffey, Ken CIN 118.5 -26 -22 29

This is 2005 only.

JeffWeaverFan
12-14-05, 07:56 PM
Wait, didn't you just post that Damon has had a declining ZR, so coupled with a weak arm he is a BELOW average defender? Now you are asking what IS average? ;)

I don't know what the mean number would be. I do know that Damon's ZR was higher than Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay, 2 names bandied about here.

Jeremy Reed was tops, and yes, I certainly believe that there are other CF'er that are better defensively than Damon. Aaron Rowand, Grady Sizemore, etc. However, again, Damon is not BELOW average defensively, by any stretch. If Bernie could track down the balls that Damon can, you could live with the weak arm. Bernie was tough because first he could run nothing down, AND he then could not get the ball back in.

By the way, Zone Rating is pretty basic, if you really wish to use only one defensive metric, UZR is certainly better.

I don't use ZR but I looked through some other players and Damon's looked below average.

I know Kotsay had a bad defensive year.

In the Red Sox games I watched last year Damon just didn't look all that good defensively. His ZR declining by as much as it did showed that what I was seeing wasn't just my imagination. The fact that his arm his horrible, and he is already on the decline defensively tells me that we should stay far away from him.

I know that UZR is much better, but we can't get those numbers anymore.

Last year, his FRAA (his Fielding Rate above average) was 97 while the average was 102. So, he was -5 below average. This is all according to Baseball Prospectus by the way.

Jersey Yankee
12-14-05, 08:05 PM
IMO in his heart he prefers to stay with the RS. All things being equal he'd stay. But if the Yankees get involved all things won't be equal. 5 years $60 mil is my guess.
I'm hoping 4 yrs with the 5th being an option year.

Ideally, 3 years, but with Bora$, that's never remotely close. If someone gave him $84m/7 yrs, he'd try for $104m/8 yrs.

Jersey Yankee
12-14-05, 08:07 PM
NAME TEAM(S) G O (+/-) RUNS RANGE+
Reed, Jeremy SEA 127.9 18 15 144
Rowand, Aaron CWS 152.1 17 14 140
DeJesus, David KC 111.7 8 7 124
Patterson, C. CHC 109.7 7 6 124
Clark, Brady MIL 141.7 7 6 116
Ellison, Jason SF 65.9 3 3 114
Wells, Vernon TOR 150.9 5 4 112
Edmonds, Jim STL 128.1 4 4 112
Beltran, Carlos NYM 143.3 5 4 111
Matos, Luis BAL 110.0 3 3 110
Wilkerson, Brad WAS 84.4 3 2 110
Sizemore, Grady CLE 152.2 4 3 109
Matthews, Gary TEX 94.0 2 2 108
Pierre, Juan FLO 153.7 2 2 106
Michaels, Jason PHI 59.6 1 1 106
Logan, Nook DET 97.1 2 1 105
Bradley, Milton LAD 69.8 1 1 105
Wilson, Preston COL/WAS 118.9 1 1 102
Lofton, Kenny PHI 82.3 0 0 100
Roberts, Dave SD 100.2 0 0 99
Jones, Andruw ATL 151.8 -1 -1 97
Hunter, Torii MIN 90.4 -2 -2 92
Sullivan, Cory COL 68.7 -2 -2 90
Tavarez, Wily HOU 139.3 -5 -4 88
Damon, Johnny BOS 136.1 -11 -9 75
Hollins, Damon TB 68.8 -7 -6 68
Williams, B. NYY 96.0 -10 -8 63
Finley, Steve LAA 99.6 -12 -10 62
Kotsay, Mark OAK 131.6 -17 -15 51
Griffey, Ken CIN 118.5 -26 -22 29

This is 2005 only.
How in the world could Andruw Jones be 21st, behind Juan Pierre, Kenny Lofton and a host of others who don't have his sterling defensive reputation?

flymick24
12-14-05, 08:10 PM
How in the world could Andruw Jones be 21st, behind Juan Pierre, Kenny Lofton and a host of others who don't have his sterling defensive reputation?

jones has lost a step the past few years

laststop3641
12-14-05, 08:35 PM
I'm hoping 4 yrs with the 5th being an option year.
let's all pray this does NOT happen

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 08:42 PM
let's all pray this does NOT happen
I'm with you on that one. I dont want to see a contract for anymore than 3 years let alone 4 and an option for 5. But I guess if 4 gets him here maybe its not such a bad idea but really I'd rather have someone else instead of 4 years of Damon.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 08:44 PM
I'm with you on that one. I dont want to see a contract for anymore than 3 years let alone 4 and an option for 5. But I guess if 4 gets him here maybe its not such a bad idea but really I'd rather have someone else instead of 4 years of Damon.
i would rather have bubba than damon.

Snatch Catch
12-14-05, 08:51 PM
I don't want any part of Damon on the Yanks.

I would be seriously upset if he was in the NY lineup next year.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 08:52 PM
I don't want any part of Damon on the Yanks.

I would be seriously upset if he was in the NY lineup next year.
yes, me too.

Jersey Yankee
12-14-05, 08:54 PM
let's all pray this does NOT happen
I'm actually hoping for 3 years, so let me clarify this, but when I've heard Damon (or Bora$) saying he wouldn't sign for less than 5 years, I'd prefer that the 5th year only be as a team option.

If 3 years, then the 4th would be a team option year, and hopefully, no "triggers" based upon ABs, games played, etc.

Jersey Yankee
12-14-05, 08:54 PM
I don't want any part of Damon on the Yanks.

I would be seriously upset if he was in the NY lineup next year.
So who'd you want in CF in 2006?

Playing Devil's Advocate, if Schuerholz calls Cash and says, "Andruw for Cano, Wang and Bubba", would you do it if you were Brian Cashman?

laststop3641
12-14-05, 08:55 PM
I'm actually hoping for 3 years, so let me clarify this, but when I've heard Damon (or Bora$) saying he wouldn't sign for less than 5 years, I'd prefer that the 5th year only be as a team option.

If 3 years, then the 4th would be a team option year, and hopefully, no "triggers" based upon ABs, games played, etc.
okay, but the real question is why you want damon in pinstripes at all.

goin for 27
12-14-05, 08:55 PM
i would rather have bubba than damon.

I hope you are not speaking about Bubba Crosby. If so, please illuminate.

(Please just don't tell me that he just needs a chance to play everyday to show what he can do)

laststop3641
12-14-05, 08:56 PM
So who'd you want in CF in 2006?
not hollywood damon.

Jersey Yankee
12-14-05, 08:56 PM
okay, but the real question is why you want damon in pinstripes at all.
I don't. I'm just hoping that he's not signed to 5 years. I'm still iffy on Bubba also, as in can he play full-time.

noneckwilliams
12-14-05, 08:58 PM
let's all pray this does NOT happen


i would rather have bubba than damon.


I don't want any part of Damon on the Yanks.

I would be seriously upset if he was in the NY lineup next year.


yes, me too.

The pursuit of Damon is most likely being dictated directly from GS. I just don't see Cashman as being in favor of making what may have to be a 5 year committment to Damon. George may have run out of patience on the CFer thing and this may be out of Cash's control. I'm dreading reading some article that has Boras meeting directly with Levine or George.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 08:59 PM
I hope you are not speaking about Bubba Crosby. If so, please illuminate.

(Please just don't tell me that he just needs a chance to play everyday to show what he can do)
because damon is not worth it... why just get anyone, why settle on
mediocrity? its stupid. wait until the cf market gets better, either near the trade deadline or wait another year.

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 09:01 PM
i would rather have bubba than damon.
Well that might be a bit of a stretch for me. I would like to see Bubba given a chance but at the same time I really do not think he can produce even adequate offense and there is no reason to have black holes in the offense, I could live with Bubba if I knew he was at least going to hit 250 but it could be much worse than that.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:02 PM
Well that might be a bit of a stretch for me. I would like to see Bubba given a chance but at the same time I really do not think he can produce even adequate offense and there is no reason to have black holes in the offense, I could live with Bubba if I knew he was at least going to hit 250 but it could be much worse than that.
it is for me too... but honestly, that is how bad i do not want damon in a yankee uniform next year.

goin for 27
12-14-05, 09:15 PM
because damon is not worth it... why just get anyone, why settle on
mediocrity? its stupid. wait until the cf market gets better, either near the trade deadline or wait another year.

Okay....

So go with Bubba? Come on. Damon is mediocre even though he finished 4th in the batting race and was an All-Star this year, so go with Bubba?

Bubba would be so exposed playing every day, you will be begging for the trade deadline. Where the Yanks would get fleeced.

Anyhow, I don't want Damon for over 3 years, but to advocate Bubba Crosby to be a regular player on the 2006 Yankees is just beyond ridiculous.

Jace
12-14-05, 09:16 PM
Beardo: DON STOP YOU WOCKIN

wileedog
12-14-05, 09:23 PM
So go with Bubba? Come on. Damon is mediocre even though he finished 4th in the batting race and was an All-Star this year, so go with Bubba?

Lets not forget Damon's numbers are significantly higher in Fenway.

We don't play 81 games in Fenway.

.298/.342/.438 are decent numbers for a CFer, but not overwhelming. Those are his Away stats last year. They are also very consistent with his 3 year Away numbers and his 3 year numbers in Yankee Stadium over 250 or so ABs, so anyone seeing a significant power surge in YS are probably wishful thinking.

And those numbers in all probability represent his peak for the life of this contract.

Not remotely arguing he's not better than Bubba, just pointing out that when looking at his recent numbers the Fenway effect must be kept in mind.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:24 PM
Okay....

So go with Bubba? Come on. Damon is mediocre even though he finished 4th in the batting race and was an All-Star this year, so go with Bubba?

Bubba would be so exposed playing every day, you will be begging for the trade deadline. Where the Yanks would get fleeced.

Anyhow, I don't want Damon for over 3 years, but to advocate Bubba Crosby to be a regular player on the 2006 Yankees is just beyond ridiculous.
i don't care what he does at the plate... the yankees have plenty of big bats. all they need is a guy who can play cf well. if bubba does anything over that, then great, but they won't need it.

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 09:26 PM
NAME TEAM(S) G O (+/-) RUNS RANGE+
Reed, Jeremy SEA 127.9 18 15 144
Rowand, Aaron CWS 152.1 17 14 140
DeJesus, David KC 111.7 8 7 124
Patterson, C. CHC 109.7 7 6 124
Clark, Brady MIL 141.7 7 6 116
Ellison, Jason SF 65.9 3 3 114
Wells, Vernon TOR 150.9 5 4 112
Edmonds, Jim STL 128.1 4 4 112
Beltran, Carlos NYM 143.3 5 4 111
Matos, Luis BAL 110.0 3 3 110
Wilkerson, Brad WAS 84.4 3 2 110
Sizemore, Grady CLE 152.2 4 3 109
Matthews, Gary TEX 94.0 2 2 108
Pierre, Juan FLO 153.7 2 2 106
Michaels, Jason PHI 59.6 1 1 106
Logan, Nook DET 97.1 2 1 105
Bradley, Milton LAD 69.8 1 1 105
Wilson, Preston COL/WAS 118.9 1 1 102
Lofton, Kenny PHI 82.3 0 0 100
Roberts, Dave SD 100.2 0 0 99
Jones, Andruw ATL 151.8 -1 -1 97
Hunter, Torii MIN 90.4 -2 -2 92
Sullivan, Cory COL 68.7 -2 -2 90
Tavarez, Wily HOU 139.3 -5 -4 88
Damon, Johnny BOS 136.1 -11 -9 75
Hollins, Damon TB 68.8 -7 -6 68
Williams, B. NYY 96.0 -10 -8 63
Finley, Steve LAA 99.6 -12 -10 62
Kotsay, Mark OAK 131.6 -17 -15 51
Griffey, Ken CIN 118.5 -26 -22 29

This is 2005 only.

Is this saying that Kotsay was worse than Bernie?

surge511
12-14-05, 09:36 PM
I'll take Damon for 3 or 4 years. His defense is poor, but he would be great for the offense. He would definitely help the team.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:40 PM
I'll take Damon for 3 or 4 years. His defense is poor, but he would be great for the offense. He would definitely help the team.
that's exactly what the yankees don't need more of!! what they need is a guy who can play CF, well, defensively. nothing else.

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 09:41 PM
that's exactly what the yankees don't need more of!! what they need is a guy who can play CF, well, defensively. nothing else.

So then Bubba is the answer.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:43 PM
So then Bubba is the answer.
i don't see why not. there is no reason to pull the trigger on someone like damon when they are just settling. no reason at all. his offensive numbers aren't even that great and his defense, in my opinion, is not that great. this is exactly what the yankees do not need... all they need is a defensive CF.

ryanthe13th
12-14-05, 09:44 PM
So then Bubba is the answer.

Jeremy Reed is the answer, and hopefully Cashman and Co. will realize this by pulling the trigger on a trade to Seattle.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:46 PM
Jeremy Reed is the answer, and hopefully Cashman and Co. will realize this by pulling the trigger on a trade to Seattle.
also correct.

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 09:48 PM
Jeremy Reed is the answer, and hopefully Cashman and Co. will realize this by pulling the trigger on a trade to Seattle.

But if all we're looking for is a defensive CF, then Bubba is all we need. Why waste a trading chip in Pavano or whoever on someone who can't hit more and isn't that much better than what we have?

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:49 PM
But if all we're looking for is a defensive CF, then Bubba is all we need. Why waste a trading chip in Pavano or whoever on someone who can't hit more and isn't that much better than what we have?
reed >>>>>>>> damon.

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 09:50 PM
reed >>>>>>>> damon.

I don't want Damon. I'm talking about Reed in Comparison to Bubba. Is there a big difference?

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:51 PM
I don't want Damon. I'm talking about Reed in Comparison to Bubba. Is there a big difference?
if the yankees can get rid of pavano and get a guy like reed in exchange, then i would do it.

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 09:52 PM
if the yankees can get rid of pavano and get a guy like reed in exchange, then i would do it.

So who replaces Pavano? Small? Leiter? Clemens?

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 09:53 PM
But if all we're looking for is a defensive CF, then Bubba is all we need. Why waste a trading chip in Pavano or whoever on someone who can't hit more and isn't that much better than what we have? Reed will hit more than Bubba, Reed was a rookie last year, his stats are all over the forum for his minor league career, he hit over .250 in his rookie season which isn't ROY material but it's not bad for a rookie eithe. His bat will come along and his fielding is already there, he's young and makes next to nothing in the Yankee Universe. Reed is the answer for CF. He is that top tier defensive CFer we have been missing, he has the potential to hit for average. Reed is the answer.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:54 PM
So who replaces Pavano? Small? Leiter? Clemens?
rj
mussina
wang
chacon
small/free agent

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 09:55 PM
So who replaces Pavano? Small? Leiter? Clemens?
Unfortunatley we already have Wright to replace Pavano in the rotation. But if that doesn't suit you I think the Yankees may pursue Washburn (left handed not a bad 5th starter) or perhaps a one year deal with Clemens. Not that I want Clemens.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:55 PM
Reed will hit more than Bubba, Reed was a rookie last year, his stats are all over the forum for his minor league career, he hit over .250 in his rookie season which isn't ROY material but it's not bad for a rookie eithe. His bat will come along and his fielding is already there, he's young and makes next to nothing in the Yankee Universe. Reed is the answer for CF. He is that top tier defensive CFer we have been missing, he has the potential to hit for average. Reed is the answer.
i completely agree... however, i am not surprised cashman didn't already do this.

goin for 27
12-14-05, 09:57 PM
Jeremy Reed is the answer, and hopefully Cashman and Co. will realize this by pulling the trigger on a trade to Seattle.

Agreed.

However, if they cannot pull it off, then sign Damon. NO WAY should Bubba play every day. (or any day)

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 09:57 PM
Unfortunatley we already have Wright to replace Pavano in the rotation. But if that doesn't suit you I think the Yankees may pursue Washburn (left handed not a bad 5th starter) or perhaps a one year deal with Clemens. Not that I want Clemens.

Oh I forgot about Wright. Alright, I kinda understand this facsination with Reed now. Thanks to all of you. :)

Never liked Washburn. I'd rather sign Clemens and leave Wright in the pen, no matter how much he makes.

wileedog
12-14-05, 09:58 PM
Agreed.

However, if they cannot pull it off, then sign Damon. NO WAY should Bubba play every day. (or any day)

I seriously would do Bubba for 1 over Damon for 5.

If nothing else something might shake free by the trade deadline with Bubba.

Sam18
12-14-05, 09:59 PM
I don't want Damon. I'm talking about Reed in Comparison to Bubba. Is there a big difference?

Yes, Reed is way, way better than Bubba.

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 09:59 PM
Agreed.

However, if they cannot pull it off, then sign Damon. NO WAY should Bubba play every day. (or any day) I see Damon as a last resort. Right now I think the Yankees are keeping the negotiations warm so he doesnt just resign with Boston, now that LA is in the mix it is even better. I think the Torre phonecall was just a "make sure this gets in the paper" kind of thing. I'm sure there is some interest there but probably a lot of interest in driving the price up.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 09:59 PM
Agreed.

However, if they cannot pull it off, then sign Damon. NO WAY should Bubba play every day. (or any day)
yes, let's settle on damon, have him here for 4 years, have average offenseive numbers, and play crap defense all because we aren't patient enough. you know, i thought you guys would have learned after what happened last year. guess not.

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 09:59 PM
I seriously would do Bubba for 1 over Damon for 5.

If nothing else something might shake free by the trade deadline with Bubba.

I read somewhere that the Mets want to trade Beltran and two other dudes for Manny. Maybe we could send em Sheff and do it straight up. :dunno:

Though I don't like the idea of trading Sheff. Especially to the Mets.

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 10:02 PM
Oh I forgot about Wright. Alright, I kinda understand this facsination with Reed now. Thanks to all of you. :)
.
I've been fascinated with Reed for a long time, I traded for him in MVP 2005 when it first came out. I forgot what I gave up for him but I know it wasn't much. Of course I also got Rich Harden for Wright and a prospect (and yes I had fair trades on).

goin for 27
12-14-05, 10:05 PM
yes, let's settle on damon, have him here for 4 years, have average offenseive numbers, and play crap defense all because we aren't patient enough. you know, i thought you guys would have learned after what happened last year. guess not.

Read my posts, I said I wanted him for 3 years. Also, no need to be condescending. You are advocating Bubba Crosby, I say he whould be a last resort. VERY last resort.

Further, I would pull the Pavano for Reed trigger in a second.

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 10:05 PM
I read somewhere that the Mets want to trade Beltran and two other dudes for Manny. Maybe we could send em Sheff and do it straight up. :dunno:

Though I don't like the idea of trading Sheff. Especially to the Mets.
Never happen.
Check out this article http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=klapisch_bob&id=2258671

The quote about "Why should we put the Yankees over the top?" I think that kind of sums up any notion of trading with the Mets.

laststop3641
12-14-05, 10:06 PM
Further, I would pull the Pavano for Reed trigger in a second.
that's what i said, but cashman is an idiot.

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 10:07 PM
I've been fascinated with Reed for a long time, I traded for him in MVP 2005 when it first came out. I forgot what I gave up for him but I know it wasn't much. Of course I also got Rich Harden for Wright and a prospect (and yes I had fair trades on).
:lol: That's why MVP is awesome.

Never happen.
Check out this article http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=klapisch_bob&id=2258671

The quote about "Why should we put the Yankees over the top?" I think that kind of sums up any notion of trading with the Mets.

Yeah I saw that before. Kinda rude, but whatever.

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 10:07 PM
that's what i said, but cashman is an idiot.
Well now we don't know that. It could have been Pavano and cash for Reed. It could have been Pavano and a prospect for Reed. There is alot of mystery surrounding that supposed deal. That deal is still technically just a rumor.

NewEraYanks2527
12-14-05, 10:10 PM
:lol: That's why MVP is awesome.


Yeah I saw that before. Kinda rude, but whatever.
Yea MVP is awesome, too bad there won't be any more with the big league guys maybe it will be like the old days of R.B.I. Baseball with players like "Donningly" but as far as the Mets go, screw them, I have a feeling they are building the most expensive, talented team ever to miss the playoffs.

wang+cano=future
12-14-05, 10:28 PM
The deal is a rumor, and part of the rumor I heard was that Cashman wants Rene Rivera w/ Reed and bullpen arm (Putz?), which I think is too much for the M's to give up, and that may be why the deal stalled. Or maybe there was no Putz included and Rivera is the point that broke the deal.....Who knows no one confirms anything so its just a rumor.

Darth_Takeo
12-14-05, 10:30 PM
Yea MVP is awesome, too bad there won't be any more with the big league guys maybe it will be like the old days of R.B.I. Baseball with players like "Donningly" but as far as the Mets go, screw them, I have a feeling they are building the most expensive, talented team ever to miss the playoffs.
EA Sports will have a college baseball game now instead of the MLB version. Sad since their engine is the best out there, IMO...

I hope Take Two revamps its baseball engine to coincide with the next-gen consoles...

Evil Empire
12-14-05, 10:33 PM
EA Sports will have a college baseball game now instead of the MLB version. Sad since their engine is the best out there, IMO...

I hope Take Two revamps its baseball engine to coincide with the next-gen consoles...

Yeah, I'm pissed about that.

Darth_Takeo
12-14-05, 10:38 PM
Yeah, I'm pissed about that.
Likewise.

Exclusivity with NFL and EA set this in motion.

1st party developers (all 989 for Playstation) can still release MLB licensed games for their consoles but 3rd party rights belong to Take Two. Less competition equals less quality games, which is why Madden this year was not half the leap ahead as it was in years past releases.

Espinosa's Glasses
12-14-05, 11:52 PM
Does anyone have ESPN insider?

It discusses the Dodgers and Yankees wanting Damon...
However, I want to know the Red Sox position on signing him..

RhodeyYankee2638
12-14-05, 11:54 PM
Does anyone have ESPN insider?

It discusses the Dodgers and Yankees wanting Damon...
However, I want to know the Red Sox position on signing him..

Maybe no one will sign him, and Boras will step in front of a bus

Espinosa's Glasses
12-14-05, 11:55 PM
Maybe no one will sign him, and Boras will step in front of a bus

A short one?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-14-05, 11:57 PM
A short one?

Anyone will get the job done

WebsterMulligan
12-14-05, 11:59 PM
Maybe no one will sign him, and Boras will step in front of a bus

There's always the Tigers, as a last resort.

NYDCYankee
12-15-05, 12:02 AM
Does anyone have ESPN insider?

It discusses the Dodgers and Yankees wanting Damon...
However, I want to know the Red Sox position on signing him..

Here is what it says, nothing new:

Torre reaches out to Damon
Dec 14 - Before departing for Italy on Tuesday, Yankees manager Joe Torre made a recruiting call to Johnny Damon, Newsday reports. Damon, the newspaper says, will travel to Los Angeles this weekend to meet with the Dodgers.
Red Sox co-GM Jed Hoyer and president/CEO Larry Lucchino remain in contact with agent Scott Boras about re-signing Damon, the Boston Herald reports. The Sox are believed to have discussed three- and four-year proposals with Boras.

Boras has been telling teams that there is a mystery team willing to go beyond four years.

In addition, sources have told ESPN.com's Jayson Stark that the Angels may be interested in Damon.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 12:04 AM
I think the hugest big problem for Damon is he would have to cut his hair and shave his beard. That could be the breaker. He may want a NTC (no trim clause)

Espinosa's Glasses
12-15-05, 12:05 AM
Well... regardless of the arguments amongst the people... about how bad that he is going to be in four years...

I would love to see him off of the Red Sox
I would also love to see them give up Manny for Beltran...

But. Im not going to get into that

Espinosa's Glasses
12-15-05, 12:07 AM
I think the hugest big problem for Damon is he would have to cut his hair and shave his beard. That could be the breaker. He may want a NTC (no trim clause)

They should give his wife an NTC too... nice ....... clause...
Sorry I couldn't hold that in

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 12:07 AM
Boras has been telling teams that there is a mystery team willing to go beyond four years.
Let this be true and let this team not be the Yankees. Please no Damon in pinstripes, please pull the trigger on someone younger, Reed, Michaels, someone just say NO do Damon.

BroadwayBomber55
12-15-05, 12:09 AM
Johnny Damon, Roger Clemens, Nomar Garciaparra all signing with the Yankees? Nope, ain't goin' to happen.

shotgun_sam
12-15-05, 12:12 AM
Johnny Damon, Roger Clemens, Nomar Garciaparra all signing with the Yankees? Nope, ain't goin' to happen.




Don't place TOO large a bet on that.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
12-15-05, 12:14 AM
Johnny Damon, Roger Clemens, Nomar Garciaparra all signing with the Yankees? Nope, ain't goin' to happen.

2 out of 3 would not shock me. I don't think Damon will come here, personally. I think when it's all said and done, the Yankees will not go past 4 years, Boston will match the 4 years and Damon will stay with the Red Sox. I have a feeling that Clemens will be a Yankee though sometime near the onset of Spring Training.

NYDCYankee
12-15-05, 12:15 AM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1215,0,4645309.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines


The Yankees, meanwhile, remained in a standstill in their negotiations with free-agent centerfielder Johnny Damon. While the Yankees have sent word they are prepared to offer four years, agent Scott Boras won't talk unless they offer five years.

Many team officials believe chasing Damon is the best option in a market lacking any other front-line centerfielders. The Yankees have interest in Philadelphia's Jason Michaels and Texas' Gary Matthews Jr., among others, but the price tags have been high.

Preston Wilson is someone who has always generated buzz among the Yankees' decision-makers, and he is a free agent, but his agent, Bob Bry, said Cashman told him during the winter meetings last week that Wilson "isn't on our radar at this moment."

Mark19
12-15-05, 12:29 AM
I'm starting to think that Preston Wilson might not be a terrible option for a season or two. His defense in 2005 was quite impressive considering how much territory he had to cover in Coors and RFK. He isn't great offensively but he can give us Posada-like numbers albeit with more Ks and a handful of steals.

BroadwayBomber55
12-15-05, 02:17 AM
2 out of 3 would not shock me. I don't think Damon will come here, personally. I think when it's all said and done, the Yankees will not go past 4 years, Boston will match the 4 years and Damon will stay with the Red Sox. I have a feeling that Clemens will be a Yankee though sometime near the onset of Spring Training.

Johnny Damon ain't goin' to the Yankees. Even if Roger Clemens returns as a Yankee, will a second stint be as good as the first stint? We all don't know that.

So if the Yankees do get Roger Clemens, this will be the rotation?

1. Randy Johnson
2. Roger Clemens
3. Mike Mussina
4. Shawn Chacon
5. Chien-Ming Wang

NYDCYankee
12-15-05, 02:25 AM
Johnny Damon ain't goin' to the Yankees. Even if Roger Clemens returns as a Yankee, will a second stint be as good as the first stint? We all don't know that.

So if the Yankees do get Roger Clemens, this will be the rotation?

1. Randy Johnson
2. Roger Clemens
3. Mike Mussina
4. Aaron Small
5. Chien-Ming Wang

What? Small instead of Chacon, Sierra Mist have you hijacked BB55's name?