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NewEraYanks2527
12-07-05, 11:05 AM
With the contracts being handed out this offseason, if Damon gets anything less than 4 years @ 45 million it would be considered a "Bargin."

If Furcal is getting 3 years @ 39.5 million what do you think Boras is whispering in every GM's ear in Dallas about Damon.
He can whisper all he wants, not many teams are interested and the Yankees have yet to bite. It doesn't seem like it really matters what other teams are getting, and Furcal is getting 4 years at 40 isnt he?

nyyanksfan20
12-07-05, 11:06 AM
four years is at least one year too many, imho.

I agree 3 is my limit with a team/incentive option for a 4th year.

NewEraYanks2527
12-07-05, 11:07 AM
I agree 3 is my limit with a team/incentive option for a 4th year. Yup I am in that boat.

ojo
12-07-05, 11:08 AM
He can whisper all he wants, not many teams are interested and the Yankees have yet to bite. It doesn't seem like it really matters what other teams are getting, and Furcal is getting 4 years at 40 isnt he?

furcal is better than damon now, and furcal in 4 years will be 40 times better than damon.

ShaneTravis
12-07-05, 11:10 AM
He can whisper all he wants, not many teams are interested and the Yankees have yet to bite. It doesn't seem like it really matters what other teams are getting, and Furcal is getting 4 years at 40 isnt he?

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5137104
"The Dodgers' signing of free-agent shortstop Rafael Furcal to a three-year contract worth nearly $39 million is a franchise-altering move, improving not only the team's offense, defense and team speed, but also its sagging image."

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/174989
"Shortstop Rafael Furcal and the Dodgers have reportedly agreed to a $39.5 million, three-year contract. The 27-year-old switch-hitter has spent his six-year major-league career with the Braves. He batted .284 last season with 12 homers, 58 RBI, 100 runs and 46 steals in 56 attempts."

noneckwilliams
12-07-05, 11:13 AM
Give me a break with all that BS, I heard Heyman on the radio begging the Yankees to go after Damon, now he seems to be doing it in print.


Heyman was on WEEI saying the Yankees CF situation is "dire" and they "have to" go after Damon.

The RS have already offered 4 years. If the Yankees land Damon it will be for a 5 year deal.

ppa79
12-07-05, 11:14 AM
The RS have already offered 4 years..

:cheer: :cheer: :clapping: :clapping:

NewEraYanks2527
12-07-05, 11:16 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5137104
"The Dodgers' signing of free-agent shortstop Rafael Furcal to a three-year contract worth nearly $39 million is a franchise-altering move, improving not only the team's offense, defense and team speed, but also its sagging image."

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/174989
"Shortstop Rafael Furcal and the Dodgers have reportedly agreed to a $39.5 million, three-year contract. The 27-year-old switch-hitter has spent his six-year major-league career with the Braves. He batted .284 last season with 12 homers, 58 RBI, 100 runs and 46 steals in 56 attempts."
Thanks, I was uncertain if it was 3 or 4 and I had to go take care of something in the kitchen and I couldnt look. I wasn't doubting you I was just asking.

ShaneTravis
12-07-05, 11:19 AM
furcal is better than damon now, and furcal in 4 years will be 40 times better than damon.

I would much rather have Furcal than Damon. But, who is better, who deserves what...does not seem to be a uniform thinking among GM's.

Every year there is at least one contract that makes you absolutely scratch your head and sets the market for the rest of the free agent class.

Daren D.,Kevin Brown,Manny,JD Drew,ARod,Bobby Higginson,Troy Percival and on and on....

No one has made an offer to Damon yet. Earlier in the year I said watch for a team to come completely out of the blue (Detroit) and sign the guy for 50 million.
Not to say he is worth it or there are better players out there worth more...I just will not bet against Boras.

ICEBERG18
12-07-05, 11:20 AM
Heyman was on WEEI saying the Yankees CF situation is "dire" and they "have to" go after Damon.

The RS have already offered 4 years. If the Yankees land Damon it will be for a 5 year deal.


"The Yankees are desperate." "The Yankees are in dire need of Damon." "The Yankees have to get Damon." "The Yankees have to spend money on Damon."

That's a synopsis of Heyman's comments regarding Damon the last few days....


It seems to me that Heyman is the one "desperate" and in a "dire" need of Damon.

ShaneTravis
12-07-05, 11:21 AM
Thanks, I was uncertain if it was 3 or 4 and I had to go take care of something in the kitchen and I couldnt look. I wasn't doubting you I was just asking.

All good--I was estimating also--that's why I had to check. lol

costanza35
12-07-05, 11:23 AM
if the yanks were to sign Damon to a 5 year deal, then it is likely that come the last few years of that contract, he will be a very similar player to what Bernie is right now- Lack of defensive range, bum arm, and a declining bat.

ShaneTravis
12-07-05, 11:25 AM
"The Yankees are desperate." "The Yankees are in dire need of Damon." "The Yankees have to get Damon." "The Yankees have to spend money on Damon."

It seems to me that Heymen is the one "desperate" and in a "dire" need of Damon.

Yeah. Puzzling why Jon is harping and harping on Damon. No one in the NY media (except Lupica) has written such a love letter regarding Damon. Curious what is his change of heart.
He was on the Yanks hot stove report last week and said he didn't think Yanks would bite. Now today he wrote an advertisemnt for J.D.
Maybe Boras sent a case of Scotch his way. ;)

ojo
12-07-05, 11:25 AM
if the yanks were to sign Damon to a 5 year deal, then it is likely that come the last few years of that contract, he will be a very similar player to what Bernie is right now- Lack of defensive range, bum arm, and a declining bat.

damon already possesses the worst outfield arm in MLB. i don't want this guy in NY.

nyctalopia
12-07-05, 11:28 AM
offering a 4th year would just be paying for an upgrade for the next 2 years. i also agree with the posters who suggest that he will take over sheffield's DH role or RF slot when Sheff leaves next year. his ops will not be falling that far in the next 4 years even if his defense does.

noneckwilliams
12-07-05, 11:37 AM
if the yanks were to sign Damon to a 5 year deal, then it is likely that come the last few years of that contract, he will be a very similar player to what Bernie is right now- Lack of defensive range, bum arm, and a declining bat.

Old habits die hard and it's just extremely hard for me to believe that George will be able to resist the temptation of signing Damon. A guy like Damon is usually catnip to GS. They'd be stealing him from a rival, he can "handle NYC", he's "performed on the biggest stage", he's "champion" etc etc etc.

Damon is the ultimate test as to whether GS has truly handed over the keys to Cashman because I really believe Cash is not interested.

ShaneTravis
12-07-05, 11:38 AM
Rotoworld.com

Johnny Damon - OF - Red Sox


Boston Globe's Gordon Edes reports, that Scott Boras is describing the talks between Johnny Damon and the Red Sox as "good".
Edes believes that "good" means that they are closing in on a deal. Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald reports one team went to five years and 70 million for Damon(Detriot maybe?). Finally Newsday this morning has an article with many quotes from Damon sounding like he is, not only be open to playing for the Yankees, but would look forward to it. Damon said he expects resolution in 10-14 days.

nyctalopia
12-07-05, 11:38 AM
Old habits die hard and it's just extremely hard for me to believe that George will be able to resist the temptation of signing Damon. A guy like Damon is usually catnip to GS. They'd be stealing him from a rival, he can "handle NYC", he's "performed on the biggest stage", he's "champion" etc etc etc.

Damon is the ultimate test as to whether GS has truly handed over the keys to Cashman because I really believe Cash is not interested.
Not interested IF it will cost 4/40 with a 5th year option. I bet if the price were 3/30 with a 4th year option Cashman would be all over it, and I wouldn't blame him.

Yankees1962
12-07-05, 11:46 AM
Old habits die hard and it's just extremely hard for me to believe that George will be able to resist the temptation of signing Damon. A guy like Damon is usually catnip to GS. They'd be stealing him from a rival, he can "handle NYC", he's "performed on the biggest stage", he's "champion" etc etc etc.

Damon is the ultimate test as to whether GS has truly handed over the keys to Cashman because I really believe Cash is not interested.
We'll know for sure in a matter of time. If Cashman gets his way then in the long run the Yankees will be better off.

23and2
12-07-05, 11:52 AM
As long as Boston pays more than they're comfortable with to retain Damon, that's good enough for me.

panicfan
12-07-05, 11:57 AM
I agree 100%

There are far worse moves that we could make then signing Damon for 3 or even 4 years. The guy is a very good leadoff hitter who fouls off pitches almost at will. He also covers a lot of ground in CF. Yes, his arm is weak, but I think that Johnny's range makes up for his noodle arm. Let's not forget that Damon can also hit for power, particularly with the short porch in RF.

If you slot him in front of Jeter, A-Rod, Matsui, Sheff, Giambi, etc., our lineup is all the more potent. Or, you bat him somewhere down in the order, adding speed and some pop to the lower portion of the order.

As with Pedro last year, Damon costs us $$, nothing else. I would hate to part with Wang or Cano or any of our other good prospects for a decent CF when we have a very capable player available for $$ only.

Damon is not my first choice, but it wouldn't bother me if we went after him.

wileedog
12-07-05, 11:59 AM
Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald reports one team went to five years and 70 million for Damon(Detriot maybe?). .

:scared:

This is like playing free agent Russian roulette.

23and2
12-07-05, 12:00 PM
If money is limited, I'd still rather go with Bubba and work on the pen.

Yankee Bulldawg
12-07-05, 12:08 PM
it had to be Detroit since it was rumored they were also interested in Damon

destro
12-07-05, 12:09 PM
i am starting to warm up to the idea of damon in center

PerfectCone
12-07-05, 12:18 PM
Check out this article from John Heyman...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/baseball/marlins/ny-sphey074542791dec07,0,5129171.column?coll=sfla-sports-marlins

Hmm...

makes you think, maybe Cash is simply lying in the weeds so that Boston does not see what is coming?

ShaneTravis
12-07-05, 12:29 PM
:scared:

This is like playing free agent Russian roulette.

If some team wants to pay 70 million for Damon...good luck with that.

That would be good thing for the Redsox, better for the Yanks and best for Boras.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-07-05, 12:43 PM
"The Yankees are desperate." "The Yankees are in dire need of Damon." "The Yankees have to get Damon." "The Yankees have to spend money on Damon."

That's a synopsis of Heyman's comments regarding Damon the last few days....


It seems to me that Heyman is the one "desperate" and in a "dire" need of Damon.

John Heyman is a complete and utter idiot.

23and2
12-07-05, 12:47 PM
I seriously doubt a team has offered $70M/5 years to Damon. Who are they bidding against? Boston's best offer was rumored to be about 3-4 years, $28M - $40M tops. Even if another team was seriously involved, they wouldn't make such a ridiculous offer at this point. It's either a blatant lie, misprepresentation or misunderstanding.....

whalers
12-07-05, 12:49 PM
Check out this article from John Heyman...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/baseball/marlins/ny-sphey074542791dec07,0,5129171.column?coll=sfla-sports-marlins

Hmm...

makes you think, maybe Cash is simply lying in the weeds so that Boston does not see what is coming?


I really hope the Yankees dont go any higher than 4 years. I could tolerate that anything more is stupid. Another thing I wouldnt like about Damon would be the Merry Go Round on the base paths would continue for apposing teams.

ICEBERG18
12-07-05, 12:51 PM
Check out this article from John Heyman...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/baseball/marlins/ny-sphey074542791dec07,0,5129171.column?coll=sfla-sports-marlins

Hmm...

makes you think, maybe Cash is simply lying in the weeds so that Boston does not see what is coming?

Or, Heyman wants Damon on the Yankees badly.

cupcollector99
12-07-05, 12:51 PM
I think he is just trying to drive up his price.

I was thinking the same thing.

It seems like there hasn't been a big FA signing recently where someone didn't add a "Yankees involved" rumor somewhere just to get more cash.

PerfectCone
12-07-05, 12:53 PM
True.

Remember, though, Damon still has the wheels to make up for his horrible arm so that would definitely be an upgrade over Bernie. Throw in the fact that he has been the best leadoff guy in MLB for the past three seasons and signing him just sounds better by the minute.

Wang's Groundballs
12-07-05, 12:58 PM
True.

Remember, though, Damon still has the wheels to make up for his horrible arm so that would definitely be an upgrade over Bernie. Throw in the fact that he has been the best leadoff guy in MLB for the past three seasons and signing him just sounds better by the minute.

Damon is now a below average CF, both with his arm and range. A retarded 3-legged puppy would get to more balls than Bernie, that doesn't mean we should sign one.

Derek Jeter is a much better leadoff hitter than Damon could ever hope of being.

PerfectCone
12-07-05, 01:04 PM
Is there an icon of rolling eyes, that's what I want to do everytime I read a post from you.

ppa79
12-07-05, 01:06 PM
A retarded 3-legged puppy would get to more balls than Bernie, that doesn't mean we should sign one.


Poor Bernie. :(

StatenIslandYankee
12-07-05, 01:06 PM
Damon might not have an arm, but he can still catch the ball because of his speed.

Wang's Groundballs
12-07-05, 01:08 PM
Is there an icon of rolling eyes, that's what I want to do everytime I read a post from you.

Thank you. Seriously.

wileedog
12-07-05, 01:12 PM
i am starting to warm up to the idea of damon in center

Every time he or Boras opens their mouth, I get even less enamored with the idea.

And if the rumor that Boston offered 4/40 already is true, then I personally consider the case closed. I don't want to even match that, much less beat it.

Wang's Groundballs
12-07-05, 01:19 PM
Damon in April 2005:

"There's no way I can go play for the Yankees, but I know they are going to come after me hard. It's definitely not the most important thing to go out there for the top dollar, which the Yankees are going to offer me. It's not what I need."
--Damon

You got to love a player like Damon. It would be so great to have an intelligent and honest individual manning CF next year...

Yankeeah
12-07-05, 01:20 PM
True.

Remember, though, Damon still has the wheels to make up for his horrible arm so that would definitely be an upgrade over Bernie. Throw in the fact that he has been the best leadoff guy in MLB for the past three seasons and signing him just sounds better by the minute.

Damons wheels will be like Bernies wheels have been the past two season. And he is not the best leadoff hitter in baseball, that guy is our SS.

nyctalopia
12-07-05, 01:28 PM
Damons wheels will be like Bernies wheels have been the past two season. And he is not the best leadoff hitter in baseball, that guy is our SS.
.... who may also be our futual center-fielder ... okok, jk. :D

WebsterMulligan
12-07-05, 01:59 PM
I could care less about the Money. if they can get him for only 3 years, give him 20 million a year

Works for me.

How about 2 years, for 60 million?

noneckwilliams
12-07-05, 04:35 PM
Every time he or Boras opens their mouth, I get even less enamored with the idea.

And if the rumor that Boston offered 4/40 already is true, then I personally consider the case closed. I don't want to even match that, much less beat it.

You'd have to assume the NYY would have to beat the RS offer for Damon to leave the situation he's in and since years seem to be the real important thing here - we're talking about 5 years.

AMYanks
12-07-05, 04:39 PM
Damon is now a below average CF, both with his arm and range. A retarded 3-legged puppy would get to more balls than Bernie, that doesn't mean we should sign one.

Derek Jeter is a much better leadoff hitter than Damon could ever hope of being.

While this is all true, some refuse to accept the fact.

Yankees1962
12-07-05, 04:43 PM
Today, I'd heard too many so-called baseball experts state that Damon is the best leadoff hitter in baseball the last two years. I've also heard them say that Pierre is a good fielding CF. It's all about name recognition with too many of these media types.

BroadwayBomber55
12-07-05, 04:43 PM
Johnny Damon as a NY Yankee? Hmmm.

So, this is how the Yankees REALLY goin' to improve defensively, eh? Hideki Matsui in LF, Damon in CF, Bubba Crosby in RF, Sheff as DH, Tony Womack and Kevin Thompson as backup OFs?

Sure, Damon can get on base as a leadoff guy and has the speed to run and cover ground, but doesn't have a strong arm. Don't tell me Joe Torre will tell Godzilla to cut Damon's throws off.

Still, if the Yankees do sign Damon, you'll still get offense from the top of the lineup so that Derek Jeter can move back in to the 2 hole and eliminate Matsui and A-Rod from hitting in that spot for good, but the OF defense is still weak. The only strong arm from the mobile OF is Bubba Crosby (if he starts everyday). The IF defense still has Jason Giambi only scooping throws and doesn't have a strong arm at 1B. And Jorge Posada doesn't get down dirty enough to block balls in front of him, even though he improved on throwing baserunners out.

destro
12-07-05, 04:49 PM
i say give damon 3 years 48 million with a 4th year option at 13 with a 1 mil buyout

i think he'd take it

yankswn23
12-07-05, 04:50 PM
I think it would be damon in left and matsui in CF

ojo
12-07-05, 05:00 PM
I think it would be damon in left and matsui in CF

why would you do that?

diehardyankeefan
12-07-05, 05:03 PM
I think it would be damon in left and matsui in CF
I wouldn't agree with that. Matsui has played LF for almost every game in his whole major league career, and Damon just plays CF.

Yankee Bulldawg
12-07-05, 05:33 PM
there is a fat chance that Boras wont get anywhere near the deal for Damon so he's gonna have to take what he can get

StatenIslandYankee
12-08-05, 12:31 AM
As the days go by, Damon becomes more and more attractive of an option.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-08-05, 12:32 AM
Kornheiser says that Matsui better learn how to run his little butt off and become a top notch cutoff man

knickfan23
12-08-05, 12:55 AM
there is a fat chance that Boras wont get anywhere near the deal for Damon so he's gonna have to take what he can get


He already knows what he wants. Considering Boras' success rate, I'd be willing to bet it will all work out for him. Whatever he says in public is not to be taken seriously.

Boras "says" he wants 7 years, which is code for saying 5 years. He "says" he wants 84 million, but knows the most he'll get is between 55 and 60.

In the end, it will come to whether the Red Sox keep him because they dont want to have both Manny and Damon gone. Or it will come down to the Yankees concluding that they really cant have Crosby in CF for the whole season and that they would taking a risk hoping that (fill in player here) will pop up in July.

buntsalot2
12-08-05, 02:59 AM
here's the latest out of Boston...

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/index.bg?mode=viewid&post_id=139

5 yr. 50 mill from an "unknown bidder"

NYDCYankee
12-08-05, 03:04 AM
here's the latest out of Boston...

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/index.bg?mode=viewid&post_id=139

5 yr. 50 mill from an "unknown bidder"

Wow. Could be a lie though. If it has happened I guess it isn't the Red Sox.

buntsalot2
12-08-05, 03:07 AM
sorry... typo...

5yr 70 mill :mad:

that's a tad much for what a 35 year old. i was thinking 5/50 would be more reasonable, so should break later in the day either way with the Yanks, if that is their bid.

buntsalot2
12-08-05, 03:08 AM
Wow. Could be a lie though. If it has happened I guess it isn't the Red Sox.

maybe it's those JailBirds from TO! Jays are goin bananas with cable tv money from Rogers.

Yankees13
12-08-05, 03:14 AM
here's the latest out of Boston...

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/index.bg?mode=viewid&post_id=139

5 yr. 50 mill from an "unknown bidder"
As long as it's not us, good, if it's Boston, have fun with that contact, if it's not Boston, no more worrying about that pest at the top of the order.

Pinstripe Lore
12-08-05, 03:22 AM
The Orioles have a lousy offensive outfield, it wouldn't shock me at all to see them offer Damon a five year contract.

ring403
12-08-05, 08:13 AM
"The Yankees are desperate." "The Yankees are in dire need of Damon." "The Yankees have to get Damon." "The Yankees have to spend money on Damon."

That's a synopsis of Heyman's comments regarding Damon the last few days....


It seems to me that Heyman is the one "desperate" and in a "dire" need of Damon.
http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20051208_08winter1.17df0f8a.html
Boras is attempting to heighten the Yankees' interest in his client -- a New York columnist with close ties to Boras was given access to Damon for a column yesterday.
Mr. Heyman has a rooting interest in Boras clients.

WebsterMulligan
12-08-05, 08:56 AM
here's the latest out of Boston...

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/index.bg?mode=viewid&post_id=139

5 yr. 50 mill from an "unknown bidder"

Right on cue. The bid from the mystery team has been announced.

Completely predictable, when Boras is involved.

NewEraYanks2527
12-08-05, 09:31 AM
here's the latest out of Boston...

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/index.bg?mode=viewid&post_id=139

5 yr. 50 mill from an "unknown bidder"
Wow that is crazy. I just hope it is not the Yankees and I bet it isn't the Yankees.

ComeBackShane47
12-08-05, 10:01 AM
Boras did the same thing with Arod, no one will be that stupid again. If Damon really did get a 5 year offer, he better take it, because neither the Yanks, nor the Sox will go that far.

goin for 27
12-08-05, 10:03 AM
here's the latest out of Boston...

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/index.bg?mode=viewid&post_id=139

5 yr. 50 mill from an "unknown bidder"

I would LOVE Damon in Pinstripes for 3 years. If this is the Yanks, it is suicide. (gotta believe if even true, it is another team)

RobRiv
12-08-05, 10:08 AM
The amazing thing about Boras and his Jedi mindtricks is that every time I read one of his quotes about Damon, I laugh to myself about his spin and his ridiculous demands, but at the same time, I catch myself reaching for my checkbook.

Me, to Boras: "I really really don't want Johnny Damon, but how much can I give you for him right now?"

Boras is crazy, but he's that good.

Yankee Bulldawg
12-08-05, 10:17 AM
wow, they were speculating on the baseball tonight special if that mystery team was the Yankees

Captain Yankee
12-08-05, 10:40 AM
Damon is now a below average CF, both with his arm and range. A retarded 3-legged puppy would get to more balls than Bernie, that doesn't mean we should sign one.

Derek Jeter is a much better leadoff hitter than Damon could ever hope of being.
Jeter IS NOT a better leadoff hitter than Damon. Jeter is much more suited to the #2 spot than he is a leadoff hitter. Damon is the prototypical leadoff hitter. He gets on base a lot. He sees a lot of pitches per appearance, He has some speed. He can hit for power. Rarely strikes out. I mean we all love Derek Jeter (and he is among the best leadoff hitters in the game) but he isn't better than Damon as a leadoff hitter. In fact, there have been several times Jeter has said that he has had to change his hitting style to adapt to the leadoff role. Now, I'm not saying we need a leadoff hitter, but if Damon comes at a reasonable price (3 or 4 year deal) than we would have to look at it. By the way, Bernie's weak arm never cost us any championships in his prime. Once Bernie didn't have the same range he had in his prime, his arm was exploited.

wileedog
12-08-05, 10:42 AM
Jeter IS NOT a better leadoff hitter than Damon. Jeter is much more suited to the #2 spot than he is a leadoff hitter. Damon is the prototypical leadoff hitter. He gets on base a lot. He sees a lot of pitches per appearance, He has some speed. He can hit for power. Rarely strikes out.

This has been disproved ad nauseum.

Jeter saw more pitches per plate appearance last year than Damon. He got on base more. He is one of the best natural baserunners in the game. He has more power.

We have one of the best lead-off hitters if not THE best in the game and everyone keeps falling all over themselves every off-season to replace him.

wang+cano=future
12-08-05, 10:43 AM
The mystery team is the Tigers, not the Yankees

whalers
12-08-05, 10:44 AM
Jeter IS NOT a better leadoff hitter than Damon. Jeter is much more suited to the #2 spot than he is a leadoff hitter. Damon is the prototypical leadoff hitter. He gets on base a lot. He sees a lot of pitches per appearance, He has some speed. He can hit for power. Rarely strikes out. I mean we all love Derek Jeter (and he is among the best leadoff hitters in the game) but he isn't better than Damon as a leadoff hitter. In fact, there have been several times Jeter has said that he has had to change his hitting style to adapt to the leadoff role. Now, I'm not saying we need a leadoff hitter, but if Damon comes at a reasonable price (3 or 4 year deal) than we would have to look at it. By the way, Bernie's weak arm never cost us any championships in his prime. Once Bernie didn't have the same range he had in his prime, his arm was exploited.

The stats have been posted here numerous times. Last year Jeter was a better leadoff hitter than Damon.

Kulish29
12-08-05, 11:02 AM
The mystery team is the Tigers, not the Yankees

If that's true, I wonder if the Tigers would be willing to give up Granderson?

StatenIslandYankee
12-08-05, 11:03 AM
The mystery team is the Tigers, not the Yankees
Or, there is no mystery team.

effdamets
12-08-05, 11:12 AM
If that's true, I wonder if the Tigers would be willing to give up Granderson?
Or Nook Logan....

trapper700
12-08-05, 11:19 AM
The stats have been posted here numerous times. Last year Jeter was a better leadoff hitter than Damon.

Plus the fact that if Damon became a Yankee, he'd have to cut his hair and lose all of his powers...

aeromac76
12-08-05, 11:23 AM
This has been disproved ad nauseum.

Jeter saw more pitches per plate appearance last year than Damon. He got on base more. He is one of the best natural baserunners in the game. He has more power.

We have one of the best lead-off hitters if not THE best in the game and everyone keeps falling all over themselves every off-season to replace him.

I think what the need really is is a bgetter tablesetting for the batting order. Jeter may be a better leadoof hitter than Damon, he may not be, but I know a lineup where both Jeter and Damon bat before the thunder is better than one where just Jeter does or Jeter and some other hitter not as good as Damon.
You can argue Jeter is the best leadoff hitter in baseball, you can argue he is the best 2 hitter in baseball.
Fact is, he cannot be both! So why not get ourselves someone where we can argue we do have both!

AMYanks
12-08-05, 11:24 AM
Jeter IS NOT a better leadoff hitter than Damon. Jeter is much more suited to the #2 spot than he is a leadoff hitter. Damon is the prototypical leadoff hitter. He gets on base a lot. He sees a lot of pitches per appearance, He has some speed. He can hit for power. Rarely strikes out. I mean we all love Derek Jeter (and he is among the best leadoff hitters in the game) but he isn't better than Damon as a leadoff hitter. In fact, there have been several times Jeter has said that he has had to change his hitting style to adapt to the leadoff role. Now, I'm not saying we need a leadoff hitter, but if Damon comes at a reasonable price (3 or 4 year deal) than we would have to look at it. By the way, Bernie's weak arm never cost us any championships in his prime. Once Bernie didn't have the same range he had in his prime, his arm was exploited.

That's nice.

Jeter is the better leadoff hitter.

StatenIslandYankee
12-08-05, 11:26 AM
Jeter IS NOT a better leadoff hitter than Damon. Jeter is much more suited to the #2 spot than he is a leadoff hitter. Damon is the prototypical leadoff hitter. He gets on base a lot. He sees a lot of pitches per appearance, He has some speed. He can hit for power. Rarely strikes out. I mean we all love Derek Jeter (and he is among the best leadoff hitters in the game) but he isn't better than Damon as a leadoff hitter. In fact, there have been several times Jeter has said that he has had to change his hitting style to adapt to the leadoff role. Now, I'm not saying we need a leadoff hitter, but if Damon comes at a reasonable price (3 or 4 year deal) than we would have to look at it. By the way, Bernie's weak arm never cost us any championships in his prime. Once Bernie didn't have the same range he had in his prime, his arm was exploited.
Look at the numbers, Jeter is a better leadoff hitter.

WebsterMulligan
12-08-05, 11:35 AM
Jeter IS NOT a better leadoff hitter than Damon. Jeter is much more suited to the #2 spot than he is a leadoff hitter. Damon is the prototypical leadoff hitter. He gets on base a lot. He sees a lot of pitches per appearance, He has some speed. He can hit for power. Rarely strikes out. I mean we all love Derek Jeter (and he is among the best leadoff hitters in the game) but he isn't better than Damon as a leadoff hitter. In fact, there have been several times Jeter has said that he has had to change his hitting style to adapt to the leadoff role. Now, I'm not saying we need a leadoff hitter, but if Damon comes at a reasonable price (3 or 4 year deal) than we would have to look at it. By the way, Bernie's weak arm never cost us any championships in his prime. Once Bernie didn't have the same range he had in his prime, his arm was exploited.

You need to stick to the ND hater's thread. :)

Check the stats.

YankeePride1967
12-08-05, 02:30 PM
Jeter IS NOT a better leadoff hitter than Damon. Jeter is much more suited to the #2 spot than he is a leadoff hitter. Damon is the prototypical leadoff hitter. He gets on base a lot. He sees a lot of pitches per appearance, He has some speed. He can hit for power. Rarely strikes out. I mean we all love Derek Jeter (and he is among the best leadoff hitters in the game) but he isn't better than Damon as a leadoff hitter. In fact, there have been several times Jeter has said that he has had to change his hitting style to adapt to the leadoff role. Now, I'm not saying we need a leadoff hitter, but if Damon comes at a reasonable price (3 or 4 year deal) than we would have to look at it. By the way, Bernie's weak arm never cost us any championships in his prime. Once Bernie didn't have the same range he had in his prime, his arm was exploited.

The facts state otherwise.

Jace
12-08-05, 02:43 PM
Jeter IS NOT a better leadoff hitter than Damon. Jeter is much more suited to the #2 spot than he is a leadoff hitter. Damon is the prototypical leadoff hitter. He gets on base a lot. He sees a lot of pitches per appearance, He has some speed. He can hit for power. Rarely strikes out. I mean we all love Derek Jeter (and he is among the best leadoff hitters in the game) but he isn't better than Damon as a leadoff hitter. In fact, there have been several times Jeter has said that he has had to change his hitting style to adapt to the leadoff role.

Almost everything you said here is wrong.

Jeter gets on base more.

Jeter saw MORE pitches per plate appearance than Damon last year, and even if he didn't, by getting on base more he causes more pitches to be thrown anyway because by getting out less the pitcher has to pitch to more batters.

Derek Jeter has speed. He stole 4 less bases than Johnny Damon last year. They are very comparable speed wise and Jeter is a great baserunner, so he gets the most out of his speed.

Why do strikeouts matter for a leadoff hitter? Theoretically they shouldn't matter at all, because starting off a game there is NO ONE on base to move over with a groundout or a flyout.

Derek Jeter has more power than Damon.

Jeter's career stats in the 1 spot are slightly better than his career stats in the 2 spot (although they are basically the same).

JeffWeaverFan
12-08-05, 02:45 PM
The stats have been posted here numerous times. Last year Jeter was a better leadoff hitter than Damon.
Not just last year, most every year. For the life of me, I will never understand why people think that Jeter should be the #2 hitter.

Sam18
12-08-05, 03:02 PM
Not just last year, most every year. For the life of me, I will never understand why people think that Jeter should be the #2 hitter.

Cuz he wears #2 and it would be COOL!

bostonyankeefan
12-08-05, 03:04 PM
Not just last year, most every year. For the life of me, I will never understand why people think that Jeter should be the #2 hitter.

I am happy with Jeter leading off or batting in the 2 hole. People like Jeter as a #2 hitter because he goes to right field so well.

NewEraYanks2527
12-08-05, 03:17 PM
The mystery team is the Tigers, not the Yankees
You think so?

effdamets
12-08-05, 03:28 PM
Not just last year, most every year. For the life of me, I will never understand why people think that Jeter should be the #2 hitter.
Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Damon...

Except, that Jeter is an unbelievably better number two hitter than Damon (I see a trend leading to Jeter being a better hitter than Damon). Therefore, if by some stretch of the imagination, Damon signs with the Yankees, Damon will bat lead off and Jeter 2nd, simply because Damon is a far inferior number 2 hitter and I very highly doubt, Damon is going to hit 9th.

Jace
12-08-05, 04:01 PM
Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Damon...

Except, that Jeter is an unbelievably better number two hitter than Damon (I see a trend leading to Jeter being a better hitter than Damon). Therefore, if by some stretch of the imagination, Damon signs with the Yankees, Damon will bat lead off and Jeter 2nd, simply because Damon is a far inferior number 2 hitter and I very highly doubt, Damon is going to hit 9th.

Torre would bat him 1st because Torre believes in reputations over stats. But I think he would bat him 9th before he would bat him 2nd.

effdamets
12-08-05, 04:25 PM
Torre would bat him 1st because Torre believes in reputations over stats. But I think he would bat him 9th before he would bat him 2nd.
I don't think you can bat Damon 9th.... He's not that bad....

jbauer2485
12-08-05, 04:41 PM
http://www.nomaas.org/images/damontwoface.jpg

yankeebot
12-08-05, 04:44 PM
http://www.nomaas.org/images/damontwoface.jpg:lol: :lol: :lol: I never knew Damon suffered from multiple personality disorder.

Mea culpa. I apologize for laughing. Mental illness is not funny. Mental illness is not funny. Mental illness is not funny.

Jace
12-08-05, 04:44 PM
I don't think you can bat Damon 9th.... He's not that bad....

9th doesn't necessarily mean bad hitter. 9th could mean a contact hitter with speed, so that power is not wasted when the bases are empty after the 7th and 8th guys come up, and then he is on base to steal so Derek can single and knock him in. Often, the 8th hitter on a team is worse than the 9th.

BillBuckner
12-08-05, 09:59 PM
Get a haircut, and get a real job...

AMYanks
12-08-05, 10:05 PM
I'd give Damon 3 years, if his wife comes to all the games.

http://survivinggrady.com/damon4.jpg

Yukon Cornelius
12-08-05, 10:13 PM
I'd give Damon 3 years, if his wife comes to all the games.

http://survivinggrady.com/damon4.jpg

Forget Johnny......sign her immediately!!!!!!! :ga-ga:

BillBuckner
12-08-05, 11:16 PM
I'd give Damon 3 years, if his wife comes to all the games.

http://survivinggrady.com/damon4.jpg
Holy Crap.

JeffWeaverFan
12-08-05, 11:23 PM
I am happy with Jeter leading off or batting in the 2 hole. People like Jeter as a #2 hitter because he goes to right field so well.
Jeter's a very good #2 hitter. He's a great hitter, period. Which is why it is fantastic that he leads off, and therefor gets the most AB's. The best lineup has the best hitters to start off games and that's what we did last year and that's what we will continue to do. Damon leading off and Jeter batting 2nd is still a very good start to a lineup, but I hear a lot of people say things that "it is great because now we can move Jeter back to where he belongs in the 2 spot." The fact is, Jeter doesn't belong in the 2 spot unless there is a better hitter in front of him in the leadoff spot which would be tough to do as Jeter is one of, if not the, best leadoff hitters in the game.

NewEraYanks2527
12-08-05, 11:27 PM
http://www.nomaas.org/images/damontwoface.jpg
:roflmao:
So where did the picture of clean shaven Damon come from, or is that just photoshop. He looks like such a little kid all cleaned up.

StatenIslandYankee
12-08-05, 11:32 PM
I'd give Damon 3 years, if his wife comes to all the games.

http://survivinggrady.com/damon4.jpg
She should get a 7YR deal :D

CelerinoSanchez
12-08-05, 11:37 PM
:roflmao:
So where did the picture of clean shaven Damon come from, or is that just photoshop. He looks like such a little kid all cleaned up.


You do know that Damon played for the Royals and was clean-shaven with short hair for several years, right?

MooseCaLLinTheBronx
12-08-05, 11:51 PM
A's. He was cleanshaven as well.

AMYanks
12-08-05, 11:52 PM
And he was clean shaven his first few years in Boston. Only recently has he become a caveman.

NewEraYanks2527
12-09-05, 12:00 AM
You do know that Damon played for the Royals and was clean-shaven with short hair for several years, right? I knew he played for the Royals, I just didn't realized he had been clean shaven while there, I couldn't recall what he looked like when he played for the A's and Royals.

BillBuckner
12-09-05, 12:25 AM
And he was clean shaven his first few years in Boston. Only recently has he become a caveman.
That was probably the pic of when he signed with Boston.

Irabu's Son
12-09-05, 07:43 AM
I'd give Damon 3 years, if his wife comes to all the games.

http://survivinggrady.com/damon4.jpg

That is one tiny Coke can.

Irabu's Son
12-09-05, 07:44 AM
Oh and about Damon... I'd hit Jeter leadoff and Damon second because I'm the old-school guy who likes lefties hitting second because it increases the stolen base threat of the leadoff hitter because it blocks the catcher.

Or I'd bat Jeter leadoff cause he's better. Either way.

StatenIslandYankee
12-09-05, 07:55 AM
http://www.nomaas.org/images/damontwoface.jpg

Martini6196
12-09-05, 08:33 AM
Interesting stats from a Gammons article........Even Gammons says Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Jeter:

Runs Walks OBP SLG OPS
Jeter 119 71 .391 .445 .846
Damon 115 52 .367 .441 .805


Gammons was saying the reason Arod came out and said that Damon was the best leadoff hitter in the game was not to knock Jeter but to lobby to get Damon........I don't know......Just thought I'd post this.

CelerinoSanchez
12-09-05, 08:52 AM
Interesting stats from a Gammons article........Even Gammons says Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Jeter:

Runs Walks OBP SLG OPS
Jeter 119 71 .391 .445 .846
Damon 115 52 .367 .441 .805


Gammons was saying the reason Arod came out and said that Damon was the best leadoff hitter in the game was not to knock Jeter but to lobby to get Damon........I don't know......Just thought I'd post this.

Jeter's better than himself? Now I love Jetes, but I thought there was only one of him.

effdamets
12-09-05, 08:56 AM
I'd give Damon 3 years, if his wife comes to all the games.

http://survivinggrady.com/damon4.jpg
Life is stupid... I kinda know the answer to this, but, how does ugly-a$$ Johnny Damon land a specimen like this? Oh, and if she comes to all the games, I'll fix her a seat.... [/evil grin]

destro
12-09-05, 09:10 AM
Life is stupid... I kinda know the answer to this, but, how does ugly-a$$ Johnny Damon land a specimen like this? Oh, and if she comes to all the games, I'll fix her a seat.... [/evil grin]

how did kris benson get anna?

we'll never no till we can strike out a major leaguer or hit a playoffs grand slam now will we?

Irabu's Son
12-09-05, 10:03 AM
how did kris benson get anna?

we'll never no till we can strike out a major leaguer or hit a playoffs grand slam now will we?

or sign a multi-million dollar contract.

Martini6196
12-09-05, 11:07 AM
Jeter's better than himself? Now I love Jetes, but I thought there was only one of him.

Whoops Jeter's better than Damon. Do you think we can talk Cashman into cloning Jeter?

dabomb2045
12-09-05, 11:10 AM
keep Damon away especially at his pricetag. I find it hilarious how people say the Yanks lack a prototypical leadoff hitter and Damon would give us that.

If you look at the stats, Jeter's OBP was 25 points higher.

whalers
12-09-05, 11:15 AM
keep Damon away especially at his pricetag. I find it hilarious how people say the Yanks lack a prototypical leadoff hitter and Damon would give us that.

If you look at the stats, Jeter's OBP was 25 points higher.

Its not just OBP. He had more hits more runs more pitches per AB. The Yankees have the best leadoff hitter in the league but not one person in the media cares to look at the stats.

Dooley Womack
12-09-05, 12:11 PM
Jeter is the better leadoff hitter. But if we get Damon for 4 years, does it matter who's better? Both know how to get on base and Damon is a bit better at putting the ball in play than Jeter, who strikes out more.

It would be a nice 1-2 no matter who is batting first or second. The more I think about it, the more I like it, even if Damon's arm is a noodle. He brings a lot to the game and I love his scrappiness and blue collar attitude out there.

DJ27
12-09-05, 12:17 PM
Jeter is the better leadoff hitter. But if we get Damon for 4 years, does it matter who's better? Both know how to get on base and Damon is a bit better at putting the ball in play than Jeter, who strikes out more.

It would be a nice 1-2 no matter who is batting first or second. The more I think about it, the more I like it, even if Damon's arm is a noodle. He brings a lot to the game and I love his scrappiness and blue collar attitude out there.

I think 4 years is even too long. Offer 2-3 years/$12-13 per year and move on.

Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 12:26 PM
year P/pa Gb% Fb% Ld% Avg Obp Slg Babip Bb% Iso
2002 3.88 0.431 0.333 0.235 0.286 0.355 0.443 0.292 0.093 0.157
2003 4.13 0.462 0.324 0.214 0.273 0.342 0.405 0.282 0.099 0.132
2004 4.12 0.485 0.329 0.186 0.304 0.380 0.477 0.306 0.108 0.172
2005 3.72 0.438 0.340 0.222 0.316 0.366 0.439 0.332 0.077 0.123

I don't want Damon at all. I don't see any reason to think that Damon can sustain a .332 BABIP, and as you can see from his declined BB% and ISO, basically his own asset as a hitter is his AVG. He's no longer even an average fielder with his arm or range. Why on earth would we want him on our team?

23and2
12-09-05, 12:31 PM
How about the Yanks offer 4 years/$48M max. It's better than the reported 4 years/$40M offered by the Sox. If he wants to give the Sox an $8M hometown discount, then you just tip your hat... And, if the $48M doesn't get it done, at least you force the Sox to pay more for Damon or offer the 5th year. Either way I'd be happy.

Quangormo
12-09-05, 01:39 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.asp?sport=MLB


Sources told the Boston Herald that the Red Sox might not be prepared to move much from the four-year, $40 million offer currently being offered to Johnny Damon.

Agent Scott Boras wants more. "I think youíre going to be surprised (where Damon ends up)," Boras said yesterday. "The winter meetings always have a surprise, and in Johnny Damonís case, youíre going to be surprised. I think Johnny Damonís case is very much up in the air."

For their part, the Red Sox are talking to Juan Encarnacion, who could be an option in center if Damon leaves.

George Steinbrenner
12-10-05, 12:42 AM
im sort of begining to want Damon. I shouldnt be admitting it, but its true. For a 3 year deal, I would overpay a little. I mean, its probably kind of sick, but I really want to see him cut his hair and shave, and smile at the press conference as a sellout corporate Yankee and rip the collectives heart out of Red Sox Nation. He is a worshipped celebrity in Boston. He delivered the decisive blow in Game 7 (ugh I remember the sickening noise when his homer hit the foul pole :mad: ) Imagine all those Red Sox fans seeing him put on the pinstripes :D

nyyanksfan20
12-10-05, 12:45 AM
I think most of us would take Damon for 3 years, but it doesn't look like hes going to get 3 at least 4 years maybe 5.

Espinosa's Glasses
12-10-05, 12:58 AM
I guarentee that he will at least get 5 year guarenteed... because there is always going to be a team out there dumb enough to give it to him to boost ticket sales... and its not going to be the Yankees...


See: Detroit Tiger's Kenny Rogers Deal
It is going to be them... even though I wish it was us in a four year deal

JeffWeaverFan
12-10-05, 01:05 AM
The Yankees should look hard at Juan Encarnacion.

jbauer2485
12-10-05, 01:06 AM
I guarentee that he will at least get 5 year guarenteed... because there is always going to be a team out there dumb enough to give it to him to boost ticket sales... and its not going to be the Yankees...


See: Detroit Tiger's Kenny Rogers Deal
It is going to be them... even though I wish it was us in a four year deal


Do you think Damon would take 1 more year and a little more money to play for mediocrity?

I'm not a baseball player already worth millions, but if I were, I wouldn't see any difference between a 40 mil deal and a 50 mil deal. I'd try to play for a winner.

It's either going to be the Red Sox or Yankees.

JeffWeaverFan
12-10-05, 01:12 AM
Do you think Damon would take 1 more year and a little more money to play for mediocrity?
With Boras as his agent, yes.

Espinosa's Glasses
12-10-05, 01:16 AM
Yes... Do you see all those documents he's preparing... thats just like saying... Give me 3 years and then I'll be on decline in every aspect of my game... He wants long term... that 5th or 6th year gettting paid 10 million mieans alot... because in 5 or 6 years Damon won't probably be worht half of that... He wants the guaranteed money... They all want the guaranteed money...

nyyanksfan20
12-10-05, 01:38 AM
The Yankees should look hard at Juan Encarnacion.

I prefer Jacque Jones, Juan would be good too I guess. Also who knows maybe Preston Wilson could come cheap. Then there is DaVanon and guys like Long and Hollandsworth, but they shouldn't be starting. Last there is Kenny Lofton who I just don't seeing anyway he is brought back.

AMYanks
12-10-05, 01:40 AM
The Yankees should look hard at Juan Encarnacion.

I like Encarnacion as a fourth OFer, or if we are willing to make Sheffield the DH for the majority of the season (which would be the right decision.)

Dooley Womack
12-10-05, 02:22 AM
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.asp?sport=MLB

Johnny Damon>Juan Encarnacion

nahzo
12-10-05, 02:59 AM
Johnny Damon will also cost a downright silly amount of money. I'd live with an Encarnacion type.

noneckwilliams
12-10-05, 07:30 AM
I guarentee that he will at least get 5 year guarenteed... because there is always going to be a team out there dumb enough to give it to him to boost ticket sales... and its not going to be the Yankees...

year deal

Damon will get 5 years from someone - maybe even the Yankees.

longtimeyankeefan
12-10-05, 08:32 AM
Damon will get 5 years from someone - maybe even the Yankees.

I really don't think the Yankees will give Damon five years guaranteed - four years with a team option, maybe, but I think they will have to swallow hard before giving a fifth guaranteed season to an outfielder who would be 37 and, in all likelihood, trending down big time, in the last season of the contract.

They have learned their lesson with the Bernie Williams contract.

WebsterMulligan
12-10-05, 10:27 AM
Life is stupid... I kinda know the answer to this, but, how does ugly-a$$ Johnny Damon land a specimen like this?

It'$ really quite $imple. You ju$t an$wered your own que$tion.

dabomb2045
12-10-05, 10:30 AM
is Encarnacion capable of playing CF well?? if so, I'd go after him

jbauer2485
12-10-05, 12:39 PM
Yes... Do you see all those documents he's preparing... thats just like saying... Give me 3 years and then I'll be on decline in every aspect of my game... He wants long term... that 5th or 6th year gettting paid 10 million mieans alot... because in 5 or 6 years Damon won't probably be worht half of that... He wants the guaranteed money... They all want the guaranteed money...

I understand that he will be on the decline in a few years. How much is he worth right now, and how much will he be worth after the 4 year deal he will get? He's already set for life, I really doubt he cares about a few more millions and his focus will be on a good ballclub. None of us know what Damon is thinking though, so whatever.

WebsterMulligan
12-10-05, 01:15 PM
I understand that he will be on the decline in a few years. How much is he worth right now, and how much will he be worth after the 4 year deal he will get? He's already set for life, I really doubt he cares about a few more millions and his focus will be on a good ballclub. None of us know what Damon is thinking though, so whatever.

I'll bet he's thinking:

Show. Me. The. Money.

Obscenity
12-10-05, 01:15 PM
It'$ really quite $imple. You ju$t an$wered your own que$tion.

I actually know some girls who dig his caveman look. Whether they still would if he was dirt poor is up to debate, though.

jbauer2485
12-10-05, 03:01 PM
I'll bet he's thinking:

Show. Me. The. Money.


OK, If he cares that much about money even though he has millions already, I don't want him on our team.

BJG
12-10-05, 03:06 PM
OK, If he cares that much about money even though he has millions already, I don't want him on our team.

Then you might as well dump every player on the team. The problem is, you couldn't find anyone to replace them.

jbauer2485
12-10-05, 03:13 PM
Then you might as well dump every player on the team. The problem is, you couldn't find anyone to replace them.


No, not everyone is already worth the amount of money Damon is worth, and not everyone accepts a deal solely because of the money.

Because of the vast amount of wealth he has, he shouldn't care about money as much as a low-key player. I can understand a low-salary player going to a team that pays the most, but not someone like Damon.

MassNYYfan
12-10-05, 08:06 PM
4 years, $40m. 5th year club option or $4m buyout. Option becomes player option with X number of games played over the 4 years.

If Boras is so confident in Damon's durability, that shouldn't be a problem. ;)

Any more than that and they can take a flying [censored].

terminator
12-10-05, 08:10 PM
With Boras as his agent, yes.

In the end however it's up to Damon - not Boras. So if Damon ends up signing a long-term deal with, say Detroit - the person who should be ridiculed is Damon, not his agent.

Tek had Boras as his agent - and yet he made it clear that Boston was the team he wanted to sign with, and came down from his initial demands.

A-Rod, with Boras as his agent, was willing to give up a fair amount of money to be traded to a contender.

In the end, it's up to Damon to decide what's best for him.

yankeesrule2000
12-10-05, 08:48 PM
I am also starting to come around to the idea of Damon playing in CenterField for the yankees. 4 years at most.

jimmykey2
12-10-05, 08:54 PM
I am also starting to come around to the idea of Damon playing in CenterField for the yankees. 4 years at most.


Not me.

I have the scary feeling that this guy won't hit as well on any other team at this point in his career, regardless of the ballpark. I also think his defense (forget his arm) will suffer in a different ballpark. Damon showed severe signs of falling apart last season so I would cringe at the idea of an expensive multi-year deal. I also can't understand why after the last few seasons with Bernie, a Yankee fan would want a guy who let someone score from 2nd on a sac fly? Okay, it was Carl Crawford, but damn!

I don't want Damon anywhere near the Yankees.

yankeesrule2000
12-10-05, 08:57 PM
Not me.

I have the scary feeling that this guy won't hit as well on any other team at this point in his career, regardless of the ballpark. I also think his defense (forget his arm) will suffer in a different ballpark. Damon showed severe signs of falling apart last season so I would cringe at the idea of an expensive multi-year deal. I also can't understand why after the last few seasons with Bernie, a Yankee fan would want a guy who let someone score from 2nd on a sac fly? Okay, it was Carl Crawford, but damn!

I don't want Damon anywhere near the Yankees.

I do not like the guy to be honest for obvious reasons, but for some reason i'm starting to think about it more. I think im just guarding myself from when they do sign him.

23and2
12-10-05, 09:36 PM
I do not like the guy to be honest for obvious reasons, but for some reason i'm starting to think about it more. I think im just guarding myself from when they do sign him.

The power of Boras compels you... The power of Boras compels you...

yankeesrule2000
12-10-05, 10:22 PM
The power of Boras compels you... The power of Boras compels you...

:lol:

Don Mack
12-10-05, 10:47 PM
I'm not crazy about the idea of Johnny Damon playing for the Yankees but when I think about it, it could mean we'd certainly be among the favorites to win the World Series perhaps for the next two years. It would make us pretty decent defensively but it would really make us dangerous on offense. Think of a lineup with 1. Damon 2. Jeter 3. Arod 4. Giambi 5. Sheffield 6. Matsui 7. DH (Maybe Nomar?) 8. Posada 9. Cano.

That would be any pitcher's nightmare. Even Posada poses a problem because he does get on base and hits home runs and is a switch-hitter. So, I wouldn't mind seeing him get $48 million for 4 years with an option for a guaranteed 5th year providing he meets certain criteria like not declining the way Bernie did.

ICEBERG18
12-10-05, 11:30 PM
As for the biggest question -- who will be their everyday centerfielder? -- the Yankees haven't made the slightest move.

Patience, remember?

"I was listening to the radio one day and I heard some fan call in and say, 'Brian Cashman is saying Bubba Crosby could be the Opening Day centerfielder and there is no way that is true!'" Cashman said during the winter meetings. "I was like, 'How is there no way that's true? The guy was our starting centerfielder in the playoffs. Why would we be afraid of starting him in center on Opening Day?'"

But as much as Cashman has been publicly trumpeting Crosby as a legitimate option, he also has begun admitting it's more a fallback option if they can't do anything.

Enter free agent Johnny Damon. Although the Yankees have refused to entertain Scott Boras' asking price of seven years for $84 million, they remain "clearly interested" in him, and would love to sign him to a three- or four-year contract, according to a person familiar with the team's plans.

Damon has a fond admirer in George Steinbrenner, which never hurts, and it also helps Damon's stock that the other centerfield options are either unappealing or too pricey.

The Yankees liked the idea of getting Juan Pierre as a one-year stopgap but were not willing to trade Robinson Cano, so they sat back silently as Pierre was dealt to the Cubs.

The Yankees would consider acquiring Jason Michaels and using him with Crosby in a platoon, but their talks with the Phillies have not progressed far.

The Rangers have a surplus of outfielders, so Brad Wilkerson, Laynce Nix or Gary Matthews Jr. likely could be had, something the Yankees plan to investigate further.

If Crosby is the Opening Day centerfielder, it only will be to buy them time to see what else becomes available. "Something always develops over time," Cashman said.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1211,0,4383161.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

goin for 27
12-10-05, 11:33 PM
Texas spurned offers from the Yanks for Laynce Nix or Gary Matthews Jr. Does anyone know what was offered?


http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/113419491929080.xml&coll=1

Yankees1962
12-11-05, 01:29 AM
Texas spurned offers from the Yanks for Laynce Nix or Gary Matthews Jr. Does anyone know what was offered?


http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/113419491929080.xml&coll=1
If Texas has spurn the offers over those two guys then I have to believe that the asking price for even mediocre CF is ridiculous.

Yankees1962
12-11-05, 01:41 AM
They say patience is a virtue, but I'm afraid that the Yankee owner, NY media and some selective Yankee fans don't have any. If so, I hope none of it prevents Cashman from completing whatever plan he's marching to.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1211,0,4383161.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

Kulish29
12-11-05, 02:06 AM
Texas spurned offers from the Yanks for Laynce Nix or Gary Matthews Jr. Does anyone know what was offered?


http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/113419491929080.xml&coll=1

I dont know why they'd want Nix. He's not a CF'er and isnt at all good with the bat.

Matsui-San
12-11-05, 02:15 AM
I dont know why they'd want Nix. He's not a CF'er...
159 of his 160 starts the last two years were in CF.

dabomb2045
12-11-05, 02:16 AM
They say patience is a virtue, but I'm afraid that the Yankee owner, NY media and some selective Yankee fans don't have any. If so, I hope none of it prevents Cashman from completing whatever plan he's marching to.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1211,0,4383161.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines


I'm a very impatient person...and its just not with the Yanks, it carries over to every aspect of my life :lol:

in terms of baseball...the offseason drives me crazy...just the uncertainty of what the team will do/who they will get, and what will happen if we dont take care of our weaknesses etc

Kulish29
12-11-05, 02:24 AM
159 of his 160 starts the last two years were in CF.

He's more of a corner guy. He doesnt belong in CF if it can be avoided.

noneckwilliams
12-11-05, 07:52 AM
They say patience is a virtue, but I'm afraid that the Yankee owner, NY media and some selective Yankee fans don't have any. If so, I hope none of it prevents Cashman from completing whatever plan he's marching to.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1211,0,4383161.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

But as long as Cashman has his way, the Yankees will be content to play from behind -- remaining on the sideline, lurking, waiting out the market to pick their spots.

The question is - How long will Cashman have his way?

I don't want Damon for any length of time. None. Not even a one year deal. Is this rational? No. But remember fan is short for fanatic and sometimes the heart over-rules the head. I don't want Johnny Damon wearing a Yankee uniform.

Yankee Steve
12-11-05, 08:02 AM
But as long as Cashman has his way, the Yankees will be content to play from behind -- remaining on the sideline, lurking, waiting out the market to pick their spots.

The question is - How long will Cashman have his way?

I don't want Damon for any length of time. None. Not even a one year deal. Is this rational? No. But remember fan is short for fanatic and sometimes the heart over-rules the head. I don't want Johnny Damon wearing a Yankee uniform.
What is this distate for Johnny Damon? What did he ever do to deserve such hate? And interesting that you would want Milton Bradley, by all accounts to be considered to be a "cancer" in the clubhouse. No one has ever pointed to Damon as being a bad teammate or anything other than a positive influence in the clubhouse. The man would do an excellent job as a leadoff or number 2 hitter, chase down whatever is hit out to CF, and steal some bases. He is an excellent baserunner as well. True, he has a Bernie-like arm, and that is a valid point of contention. Let's look at players for the contribution that they can make to the 2006 Yankees and not at some petty hatred that some fans would have because the guy played for the Red Sox. So did Sparky Lile... and Babe Ruth.

Yankees1962
12-11-05, 08:14 AM
What is this distate for Johnny Damon? What did he ever do to deserve such hate? And interesting that you would want Milton Bradley, by all accounts to be considered to be a "cancer" in the clubhouse. No one has ever pointed to Damon as being a bad teammate or anything other than a positive influence in the clubhouse. The man would do an excellent job as a leadoff or number 2 hitter, chase down whatever is hit out to CF, and steal some bases. He is an excellent baserunner as well. True, he has a Bernie-like arm, and that is a valid point of contention. Let's look at players for the contribution that they can make to the 2006 Yankees and not at some petty hatred that some fans would have because the guy played for the Red Sox. So did Sparky Lile... and Babe Ruth.
The distaste for Damon is base on that Damon isn't that good of an outfielder and I'm not even talking about his arm. Furthermore, I don't think he's worth the money he's asking for beyond the 2nd or maybe, the 3rd year of his contract. I don't want another Bernie situation in 2008/2009.

noneckwilliams
12-11-05, 08:34 AM
What is this distate for Johnny Damon? What did he ever do to deserve such hate? And interesting that you would want Milton Bradley, by all accounts to be considered to be a "cancer" in the clubhouse. No one has ever pointed to Damon as being a bad teammate or anything other than a positive influence in the clubhouse. The man would do an excellent job as a leadoff or number 2 hitter, chase down whatever is hit out to CF, and steal some bases. He is an excellent baserunner as well. True, he has a Bernie-like arm, and that is a valid point of contention. Let's look at players for the contribution that they can make to the 2006 Yankees and not at some petty hatred that some fans would have because the guy played for the Red Sox. So did Sparky Lile... and Babe Ruth.

I said my distaste was not entirely rational.

I don't like the guy. Living in Boston right now I can tell you I talk baseball all day with RS fans and you'd be surprised how few of them even want Damon and his act back in Fenway.

There is one aspect of my not wanting Damon that is rational however. IMO in order to land Damon the NYY will have to offer him 5 years (since the RS have already offered 4). I have no interest in watching this guy continue his decline for the next 5 years in Yankee Stadium. The RS got the best of what Damon had and we will get the worst.

Dooley Womack
12-11-05, 08:40 AM
Texas spurned offers from the Yanks for Laynce Nix or Gary Matthews Jr. Does anyone know what was offered?


http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/113419491929080.xml&coll=1

Cashman actually had interest in Nix?? What attracted him most, Laynce's .267 OBP last year? His lifetime .285 OBP? His 113 K's in 371 AB's in 2004, seasonal average of 148 K per year? His career .888 ZR and 2.58 RF in center as opposed to Bubba's career .938 and .340 RF (.966 and .361 last year)? Cashman better go the easy route and sign Damon.

Scary sh*t.

wileedog
12-11-05, 09:36 AM
The distaste for Damon is base on that Damon isn't that good of an outfielder and I'm not even talking about his arm. Furthermore, I don't think he's worth the money he's asking for beyond the 2nd or maybe, the 3rd year of his contract. I don't want another Bernie situation in 2008/2009.

I agree. I'm not a big Damon fan and wouldn't be unhappy at all if he winds up back in Boston.

longtimeyankeefan
12-11-05, 09:40 AM
I am not a real Damon fan, but I can accept him on a short-term deal (ie - no more than three years). I predict that, by the age 35, Johnny Damon will be a DH leadoff hitter as no team will be able to stomach his absolute noodle of an arm anywhere in the OF - and he does not strike me as a 1Bman.

ring403
12-11-05, 09:59 AM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spflash114548899dec11,0,7167665.column?coll=ny-sports-print
Boras said yesterday, "The market's very strong for Johnny ... Our position on seven years is serious, and clubs are aware of it."

Two AL execs said they still see Boston as the favorite to re-sign Damon, and Newsday has learned that Red Sox owner John Henry recently got involved in negotiations. Damon expressed unhappiness over what he saw as Boston's opening low-ball offers in an interview this week with Newsday, but Henry might save the day for his disjointed front office.

Word is, two other potential players for Damon are the Orioles and Dodgers. Baltimore has quietly begun talking about Damon; however, the Orioles likely are a long shot because Damon's looking to play for a winner.

One competing GM said of the Dodgers: "They paid $13 million [a year] for a .275 hitter [Rafael Furcal], so don't bet against them doing something stupid."

yankeebot
12-11-05, 10:03 AM
One competing GM said of the Dodgers: "They paid $13 million [a year] for a .275 hitter [Rafael Furcal], so don't bet against them doing something stupid."
:lol: :lol: :lol:

goin for 27
12-11-05, 10:04 AM
Cashman actually had interest in Nix?? What attracted him most, Laynce's .267 OBP last year? His lifetime .285 OBP? His 113 K's in 371 AB's in 2004, seasonal average of 148 K per year? His career .888 ZR and 2.58 RF in center as opposed to Bubba's career .938 and .340 RF (.966 and .361 last year)? Cashman better go the easy route and sign Damon.

Scary sh*t.

I guess this means you don't know who was offered. :lol:


Seriously though, you can't quote Bubba's career defensive statistics, but not also see that his career numbers at the plate are worse than Nix's in every category.

Dooley Womack
12-11-05, 10:04 AM
I guess this means you don't know who was offered. :lol:


Seriously though, you can't quote Bubba's career defensive statistics, but not also see that his career numbers at the plate are worse than Nix's in every category.

Dayum....could you see Nix as the starting CF though? He's pretty damn awful.

noneckwilliams
12-11-05, 10:05 AM
The market for Damon appears to be only slightly better than the market for Varitek was.

goin for 27
12-11-05, 10:06 AM
Dayum....could you see Nix as the starting CF though? He's pretty damn awful.

No, I absolutely agree. In fact, I can't believe, (and won't believe) that Bubba will either.

I am just trying to figure out what the heck Cashman offered for Nix. Bubba?

BJG
12-11-05, 10:33 AM
No, I absolutely agree. In fact, I can't believe, (and won't believe) that Bubba will either.

I am just trying to figure out what the heck Cashman offered for Nix. Bubba?

Guessing it was something like Sam Marsonek.

MassNYYfan
12-11-05, 11:32 AM
I don't like the guy. Living in Boston right now I can tell you I talk baseball all day with RS fans and you'd be surprised how few of them even want Damon and his act back in Fenway.

Eh, that's only until they sign him. Then they'll all come to work the next day in their Damon is my homeboy t-shirts.

jbauer2485
12-11-05, 11:59 AM
I said my distaste was not entirely rational.

I don't like the guy. Living in Boston right now I can tell you I talk baseball all day with RS fans and you'd be surprised how few of them even want Damon and his act back in Fenway.

There is one aspect of my not wanting Damon that is rational however. IMO in order to land Damon the NYY will have to offer him 5 years (since the RS have already offered 4). I have no interest in watching this guy continue his decline for the next 5 years in Yankee Stadium. The RS got the best of what Damon had and we will get the worst.

What is his "act" that people dislike? I have not ready anything negative about him other than his noodle arm.

CTSoxFan
12-11-05, 12:02 PM
I said my distaste was not entirely rational.

I don't like the guy. Living in Boston right now I can tell you I talk baseball all day with RS fans and you'd be surprised how few of them even want Damon and his act back in Fenway.

...until they look at the alternatives, of course. Then suddenly going to five years for Damon looks surprisingly defensible.

Personally, I hope the Sox stick to a maximum of four years at sane dollars. If Boras is serious about getting seven years for Damon, I'd do it in a heartbeat...at an annual salary of $6 or $7 million, of course. ;)

nyyanksfan20
12-11-05, 12:42 PM
Looks like Yanks are going to make a push for Damon with 4 years...


http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spflash114548899dec11,0,7167665.column?coll=ny-sports-print

CTSoxFan
12-11-05, 12:45 PM
And it looks like the Red Sox might be gazing more towards Coco Crisp or Jeremy Reed in a trade.

http://www.ecnnews.com/cgi-bin/15/etstory.pl?-sec-Sports+fn-fn-fn-theoreturn.1211-20051211-fn

You have to scroll to the bottom and get past all the news about Theo's imminent return before you find it. :)

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 12:48 PM
Looks like Yanks are going to make a push for Damon with 4 years...


http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spflash114548899dec11,0,7167665.column?coll=ny-sports-print


The article says that the Red Sox are still the favorites though

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 12:49 PM
And it looks like the Red Sox might be gazing more towards Coco Crisp or Jeremy Reed in a trade.

http://www.ecnnews.com/cgi-bin/15/etstory.pl?-sec-Sports+fn-fn-fn-theoreturn.1211-20051211-fn

You have to scroll to the bottom and get past all the news about Theo's imminent return before you find it. :)

Interesting Cash seems to also be interested in Reed, I doubt the Indians would trade coco crisp to any team though.

BeantownYankee
12-11-05, 12:54 PM
The article says that the Red Sox are still the favorites though
It appears they're waiting to announce the new GM's 1st. Here's a preview to the news conference

YankeeFan1
12-11-05, 12:54 PM
The Yankees would be fools to tie themselves to Damon. Better find someone to hold center field for one year until next off season when 2 or 3 quality centerfielders become available like Andruw Jones and Torii Hunter.

NewEraYanks2527
12-11-05, 01:05 PM
The article says that the Red Sox are still the favorites though Good. That is wear Johnny should stay.

mrbawm
12-11-05, 01:32 PM
OH GOD, please do not let this happen.

mrbawm
12-11-05, 01:34 PM
What is this distate for Johnny Damon? What did he ever do to deserve such hate? And interesting that you would want Milton Bradley, by all accounts to be considered to be a "cancer" in the clubhouse. No one has ever pointed to Damon as being a bad teammate or anything other than a positive influence in the clubhouse. The man would do an excellent job as a leadoff or number 2 hitter, chase down whatever is hit out to CF, and steal some bases. He is an excellent baserunner as well. True, he has a Bernie-like arm, and that is a valid point of contention. Let's look at players for the contribution that they can make to the 2006 Yankees and not at some petty hatred that some fans would have because the guy played for the Red Sox. So did Sparky Lile... and Babe Ruth.

We do not want the Red Sox crap, that they are smart enough to walk away from. It's really that simple.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 01:46 PM
Good. That is wear Johnny should stay.

agreed we dont need a declining CF who would be the next bernie in a few years

YankeeStripes
12-11-05, 01:51 PM
i say we offer Damon 1 year 15 million and see what he says. If not, we trade sturtze for michaels or give Bubba a shot, and sign Nomar to DH

CTSoxFan
12-11-05, 02:45 PM
We do not want the Red Sox crap, that they are smart enough to walk away from. It's really that simple.

Yup. Like that time the Sox were smart enough to walk away from that overpaid bum Clemens. Look at the crappy seasons he had when he came to New York.

CTSoxFan
12-11-05, 02:48 PM
agreed we dont need a declining CF who would be the next bernie in a few years

Whether it's the Sox or Yankees (or any other team), whoever is talking about signing Damon to a four-year deal has to know that it's likely to be a good deal for the next season or two, then it's going to start to turn bad. In that context, if the Red Sox think it's a good idea to pay Damon, say, $40 million for productive seasons in 2006 and 2007 before starting to watch his decline in '08 and '09, then I guess that's OK. But to believe he'll remain on top of his game for all four reasons, you'd have to be insane. Or Boras.

And for anyone to offer him more than four years, a crack pipe has to be involved.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-11-05, 02:52 PM
I think we're trying to hike the price up on the Red Sox, Johnny wants to stay in Boston and we know he wants to stay in Boston. It just wouldn't be smart...

Average OPS+ in the last 3 years: 108

Not worth the money considering he is going to decline...

Spiker101
12-11-05, 03:48 PM
The problem with not making a run at Damon is that I just don't see another centerfielder out there over the next two years who's not going to cost the Yanks at ton in prospects the Yanks just don't have. I hate to rub old wounds but the decision to go after Johnson instead of Beltran (or Sheffield instead of Vlad) is looking more disastrous every day.

yankeebot
12-11-05, 03:50 PM
The problem with not making a run at Damon is that I just don't see another centerfielder out there over the next two years who's not going to cost the Yanks at ton in prospects the Yanks just don't have. I hate to rub old wounds but the decision to go after Johnson instead of Beltran (or Sheffield instead of Vlad) is looking more disastrous every day.
Torii Hunter or Mike Cameron. FA after 2006.

Mark19
12-11-05, 03:51 PM
The problem with not making a run at Damon is that I just don't see another centerfielder out there over the next two years who's not going to cost the Yanks at ton in prospects the Yanks just don't have. I hate to rub old wounds but the decision to go after Johnson instead of Beltran (or Sheffield instead of Vlad) is looking more disastrous every day.

There are several indications that guys like Jason Michaels, Jeremy Reed and Brad Wilkerson are attainable at a reasonable cost. Furthermore there are cheaper but effective options in Gary Matthews and Jeff DaVanon.

Yankeeah
12-11-05, 03:52 PM
The problem with not making a run at Damon is that I just don't see another centerfielder out there over the next two years who's not going to cost the Yanks at ton in prospects the Yanks just don't have. I hate to rub old wounds but the decision to go after Johnson instead of Beltran (or Sheffield instead of Vlad) is looking more disastrous every day.

Damon doesn't want a two year contract. He wants a 4+ year deal, which is way too long, not to mention wanting 10mil a year.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-11-05, 03:57 PM
The problem with not making a run at Damon is that I just don't see another centerfielder out there over the next two years who's not going to cost the Yanks at ton in prospects the Yanks just don't have. I hate to rub old wounds but the decision to go after Johnson instead of Beltran (or Sheffield instead of Vlad) is looking more disastrous every day.

Beltran last year was a below league average player, Johnson was well above in one of his worst years ever. I'd take RJ over Beltran any day considering he just isn't a great hitter and his contract was grossly over the amount he is actually worth. Pitchers like Johnson don't come along often, I'm very glad we have him for the next few years. Sheffield over Vlad was a bad decision, but it was George's not Cashmans. Damon is likely to decline and his average OPS+ over the last 3 years of 108 just isn't worth it to me. There are better cheaper options than Damon...

wileedog
12-11-05, 04:06 PM
Beltran last year was a below league average player, Johnson was well above in one of his worst years ever.

What were Bubba and Bernie last year?

What might they be this year?

What about next year?

You can't just compare Beltran and Johnson in a vacuum.

Yankeeah
12-11-05, 04:09 PM
Beltran at 17m a year? Pass. I'm glad we didn't sign him at that price, though I would have liked to have him.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-11-05, 04:10 PM
What were Bubba and Bernie last year?

What might they be this year?

What about next year?

You can't just compare Beltran and Johnson in a vacuum.

The Yankees couldn't get out of paying Bernie his money last year, playing Bubba doesn't cripple the Yankees from spending like Beltran would. Beltran's career OPS+ of 109 doesn't warrant the contract he recieved. You let me know what metric Johnson is less worth than Beltran...

wileedog
12-11-05, 04:19 PM
You let me know what metric Johnson is less worth than Beltran...

Your missing the point.

Their value is measured by who their replacements are, and relative dropoff behind them.

Johnson was a fairly average pitcher for most of the year until he had a good run to end the season. then Randy looked real valuable when the Angels were handing him his a$$ in the playoffs, and Bubba/Bernie were busy not hitting a thing and butchering the outfield thw whole series.

Furthermore, Randy will play the next two seasons at age 42/43. Beltran at 29/30. There's a good chance one will get better while one will decline.

nahzo
12-11-05, 04:22 PM
The Yankees couldn't get out of paying Bernie his money last year, playing Bubba doesn't cripple the Yankees from spending like Beltran would. Beltran's career OPS+ of 109 doesn't warrant the contract he recieved. You let me know what metric Johnson is less worth than Beltran...

Age and useful life.

20/20 hindsight is great, but it doesn't hold water in an argument against Beltran. The fact was, going into 2005, Beltran's OPS+ increased for three straight years. He was also a good glove and had a good enough OBP, and for kicks, he was 27.

Johnson was coming off a great rebound year at age 40, and we traded away a good catcher prospect (which likely would have aided in transitioning Posada) to get him. He also prevented the signing of a FA like Beltran.

Who will/would have benefited the team longer?

JeffWeaverFan
12-11-05, 04:34 PM
Looks like Yanks are going to make a push for Damon with 4 years...


http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spflash114548899dec11,0,7167665.column?coll=ny-sports-print
Signing Damon to a 4 year deal will hurt the team.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 04:38 PM
Beltran last year was a below league average player, Johnson was well above in one of his worst years ever. I'd take RJ over Beltran any day considering he just isn't a great hitter and his contract was grossly over the amount he is actually worth. Pitchers like Johnson don't come along often, I'm very glad we have him for the next few years. Sheffield over Vlad was a bad decision, but it was George's not Cashmans. Damon is likely to decline and his average OPS+ over the last 3 years of 108 just isn't worth it to me. There are better cheaper options than Damon...

Both of these decisions as I understand it came out of Tampa, not NY. So Cashman's off the hook for both.

Randy Johnson who was paid $15 mil last year and will get $16 mil this and another $16 million the following year isn't grossly overpaid, but Beltran was. Randy spit the bit in the key game of the season and cost the Yanks the Angels series. You just can't get around that.
Beltran made $12 million last year and will get the same next year. I know his salary rachets up starting in 2007, but he's also 28, just entering his prime years, and last year was such an obvious off-year if you examine his stastics that it's about 90 percent he will rebound. Are you 90 percent certain Johnson will return to being a pitcher worth $16 million?
Even if you ignore that the prospect the Yanks had to give up is now considered one of the best catching prospects in the game, the Johnson trade was one of the worst in Yankee history.

I would be interested in hearing about those better, cheaper CF options.

NewEraYanks2527
12-11-05, 04:39 PM
Signing Damon to a 4 year deal will hurt the team.
That is one of the most accurate statments of the day.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-11-05, 04:46 PM
Your missing the point.

Their value is measured by who their replacements are, and relative dropoff behind them.

Exactly, there is nothing on the market that can come close to replacing Johnson or his production but there are a lot of things that can replace Beltran's production. Also considering Beltran's contract, you would block cheap minor leaguers from your system coming up in Beltran's declining years...



Johnson was a fairly average pitcher for most of the year until he had a good run to end the season. then Randy looked real valuable when the Angels were handing him his a$$ in the playoffs, and Bubba/Bernie were busy not hitting a thing and butchering the outfield thw whole series.

Randy was also a large part of the reason why we made the playoffs and still our best SP. Randy did have a bad start but also kept us in the game when Moose crapped the bed, but our offense was stagnant...



Furthermore, Randy will play the next two seasons at age 42/43. Beltran at 29/30. There's a good chance one will get better while one will decline.

Beltran isn't likely going to get much better. Randy's declining production (I don't really think its going to occur, I think he will have a much better year nextyear) will still be worth tons more than Beltran's best years...

ryanthe13th
12-11-05, 04:49 PM
All Beltrans numbers do is prove that he's inconsistant.

In 1999, he hit .293 for KC, in 2000 he hit .247.
In 2001, he hit .306 for KC, in 2002 he hit .273.
In 2003, he hit .307 for KC, in 2004 he hit .278 for KC, and .258 for HOU.

He's an inconsistant, overrated outfielder, and overpaid.

And get real about Johnson being one of the worst trades in Yankee history. I'm not shedding any tears for Javier Vazquez leaving. Navarro may come back to bite us, but it won't qualify as one of the worst trades ever, sorry.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-11-05, 04:53 PM
Johnson was coming off a great rebound year at age 40, and we traded away a good catcher prospect (which likely would have aided in transitioning Posada) to get him. He also prevented the signing of a FA like Beltran.

Who will/would have benefited the team longer?

A rebound year? He was injured, its not like he just had an off year. The man has a career 142 ERA+. The loss of Navarro sucks but hes not that good either. He slugged .390 in the minors and .375 in the majors last year. He has no power and isn't great behind the plate, I'd rather have Posada. Beltran isn't good, his ERA+ was 95 last year, he played out of his mind in his contract year, thats it...

nahzo
12-11-05, 04:55 PM
Exactly, there is nothing on the market that can come close to replacing Johnson or his production but there are a lot of things that can replace Beltran's production. Also considering Beltran's contract, you would block cheap minor leaguers from your system coming up in Beltran's declining years...
Beltran's declining years would likely occur in his mid thirties. That's what, 5-7 years from now. The players he would be "blocking" in the future haven't even been drafted yet.


Beltran isn't likely going to get much better. Randy's declining production (I don't really think its going to occur, I think he will have a much better year nextyear) will still be worth tons more than Beltran's best years...
I don't think so. Only 2 years of a 42-43 HOF pitcher is still a crap shoot, banking on his health, which (I would imagine) has a higher degree of uncertainty assigned to it than for an athletic 28 year old.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-11-05, 05:03 PM
Beltran's declining years would likely occur in his mid thirties. That's what, 5-7 years from now. The players he would be "blocking" in the future haven't even been drafted yet.

I'm not saying he is going to decline but I don't expect him to come near what he did in 2004. Therefore, he isn't worth his contract. Melky is a possibility and things change. Players develop, get better, we might get some minor leaguers in a trade (long shot), and still the players that would be drafted this year and the next would be blocked by Beltran. We don't need another long term overpriced contract, not signing Beltran was one of the best things the Yankees did in a while, IMO...



I don't think so. Only 2 years of a 42-43 HOF pitcher is still a crap shoot, banking on his health, which (I would imagine) has a higher degree of uncertainty assigned to it than for an athletic 28 year old.

Comparing Randy to other pitchers in unfair, he isn't like them, he has been durable his entire career and an insane training program not only in the offseason but between starts and probably is the best lefthanded pitcher ever....

nahzo
12-11-05, 05:08 PM
A rebound year? He was injured, its not like he just had an off year. The man has a career 142 ERA+. The loss of Navarro sucks but hes not that good either. He slugged .390 in the minors and .375 in the majors last year. He has no power and isn't great behind the plate, I'd rather have Posada. Beltran isn't good, his ERA+ was 95 last year, he played out of his mind in his contract year, thats it...
Johnson had an injury year at age 39. Something about that is highly suspect to the possibility that it was related to wear & tear and age. Coming back from that and throwing a perfect game, to me, constitutes calling it a rebound year (i.e. we won't see that kind of production again).

Beltran had an off-year last year.

Navarro at age 21 puts up an OBP of .354 in the majors. For kicks and giggles, Posada (in roughly the same amount of games) at age 25 puts up an OBP of .359. Fascinating.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 05:10 PM
A rebound year? He was injured, its not like he just had an off year. The man has a career 142 ERA+. The loss of Navarro sucks but hes not that good either. He slugged .390 in the minors and .375 in the majors last year. He has no power and isn't great behind the plate, I'd rather have Posada. Beltran isn't good, his ERA+ was 95 last year, he played out of his mind in his contract year, thats it...

Johnson wasn't injured. He has chronic back problems and has had them for the past decade. What you see is what you get. And for god's sake don't quote career stats for a player who's 42 years old. He used to be a great pitcher. He wasn't last year and the chances of him being anything more than slightly above average in 2006 are not good. As for 2007 ... well.
Navarro isn't major league ready. OK, but Posada isn't ready to retire either. Jorge will be gone as an everyday catcher by 2008 and lo and behold Navarro should be ready then, but there's no Navarro there. And no other catching prospect in the system worth a damn. You can't spin this any other way than a simple mistake of expecting Randy Johnson not to age like a mortal creature.

Beltran had an off-year, one off-year. Probably because he was pressing under the pressure of the big contract. But to say he isn't good is ignoring the facts. At age 27, he had a .927 OPS, what you call playing out of his mind. Most players turn in their best seasons at age 27, that's the peak year of most careers. But it's not like his previous five seasons were so much worse. He had a .901 OPS in '04, a .911 in '03, an .847 in '02, and an 876 in '01at the age of 22. Most of these seasons were in KC, not a hitter's paradise.
Beltran in addition is not a good defensive outfielder, he's a great defensive outfielder. He's also a good baserunner, having stolen as many as 40 sacks a year.

But all this is water under the bridge. I really would be curious who you think the Yanks could pick up over the year or two that would be both better and cheaper than Damon.

nahzo
12-11-05, 05:20 PM
I'm not saying he is going to decline but I don't expect him to come near what he did in 2004. Therefore, he isn't worth his contract. Melky is a possibility and things change. Players develop, get better, we might get some minor leaguers in a trade (long shot), and still the players that would be drafted this year and the next would be blocked by Beltran. We don't need another long term overpriced contract, not signing Beltran was one of the best things the Yankees did in a while, IMO...
IMO, 2004 continued the trend of being above average, and 2005 was out-of-context. Discussing the possibilities of him blocking players that aren't even acquired is neither here nor there. Why would we acquire players that would obviously be blocked?


Comparing Randy to other pitchers in unfair, he isn't like them, he has been durable his entire career and an insane training program not only in the offseason but between starts and probably is the best lefthanded pitcher ever....
I think it is fair, since the human body can only get so impervious to injury during rigorous physical exercise. The difference in health and durability between the average couch potato and Randy Johnson would likely favor Randy Johnson; but the difference in health and durability between the average major leaguer and Randy Johnson probably is negligible.

Regarding training regimen, Roger Clemens pitched amazing last year and is known to have a similarly amazing training program, but did it prevent him from being sidelined with an injury at the end of the postseason this last year? No, it was a crap shoot, because you are banking on the health of a veteran.

ryanthe13th
12-11-05, 05:58 PM
Johnson wasn't injured. He has chronic back problems and has had them for the past decade. What you see is what you get. And for god's sake don't quote career stats for a player who's 42 years old. He used to be a great pitcher. He wasn't last year and the chances of him being anything more than slightly above average in 2006 are not good. As for 2007 ... well.
Navarro isn't major league ready. OK, but Posada isn't ready to retire either. Jorge will be gone as an everyday catcher by 2008 and lo and behold Navarro should be ready then, but there's no Navarro there. And no other catching prospect in the system worth a damn. You can't spin this any other way than a simple mistake of expecting Randy Johnson not to age like a mortal creature.

What is your reasoning behind saying Johnson didn't have a good year? He finished with a 3.79 ERA and had a 3.31 ERA post ASB and had a 17 win season. Are you expecting him to win every one of his starts and post an ERA of 2.00? I'm sure Johnson will retire after his contract expires, but he has enough left in him to finish off the deal.


Beltran had an off-year, one off-year. Probably because he was pressing under the pressure of the big contract. But to say he isn't good is ignoring the facts. At age 27, he had a .927 OPS, what you call playing out of his mind. Most players turn in their best seasons at age 27, that's the peak year of most careers. But it's not like his previous five seasons were so much worse. He had a .901 OPS in '04, a .911 in '03, an .847 in '02, and an 876 in '01at the age of 22. Most of these seasons were in KC, not a hitter's paradise.
Beltran in addition is not a good defensive outfielder, he's a great defensive outfielder. He's also a good baserunner, having stolen as many as 40 sacks a year.

He's had worse years where he DIDN'T have the pressure of the big contract. Nobody is saying Beltran is a bad player, they are saying he is overrated and overpaid.

nyctalopia
12-11-05, 06:06 PM
Johnson wasn't injured. He has chronic back problems and has had them for the past decade. What you see is what you get. And for god's sake don't quote career stats for a player who's 42 years old. He used to be a great pitcher. He wasn't last year and the chances of him being anything more than slightly above average in 2006 are not good. As for 2007 ... well.
Navarro isn't major league ready. OK, but Posada isn't ready to retire either. Jorge will be gone as an everyday catcher by 2008 and lo and behold Navarro should be ready then, but there's no Navarro there. And no other catching prospect in the system worth a damn. You can't spin this any other way than a simple mistake of expecting Randy Johnson not to age like a mortal creature.

Beltran had an off-year, one off-year. Probably because he was pressing under the pressure of the big contract. But to say he isn't good is ignoring the facts. At age 27, he had a .927 OPS, what you call playing out of his mind. Most players turn in their best seasons at age 27, that's the peak year of most careers. But it's not like his previous five seasons were so much worse. He had a .901 OPS in '04, a .911 in '03, an .847 in '02, and an 876 in '01at the age of 22. Most of these seasons were in KC, not a hitter's paradise.
Beltran in addition is not a good defensive outfielder, he's a great defensive outfielder. He's also a good baserunner, having stolen as many as 40 sacks a year.

But all this is water under the bridge. I really would be curious who you think the Yanks could pick up over the year or two that would be both better and cheaper than Damon.
you've got to be kidding me! we're paying 48 million dollars for a HOF pitcher who just happened to have an off year (in which he pitched ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE), instead of spending 100 million dollars on an ABOVE AVERAGE center fielder who probably has one of the most over-valued contracts of all time (see: Chan Ho Park) and just proved it by batting .266 with a .330 obp. And how is Damon better than, or going to be cheaper than the FA crop of center fielders available next year? Yes, if he is available at 4/40 then sure, sign him with the intention of DHing after 2 years. But any more years or money than that, and he is way too expensive. Navarro will be a league average catcher at best, its not difficult to sign or trade for one of those.

BJG
12-11-05, 06:21 PM
Navarro will be a league average catcher at best, its not difficult to sign or trade for one of those.

Navarro was already substantially better than league average last year at catcher, posting a .264 EQA to the .245 EQA average. At age 21.

keg411
12-11-05, 06:40 PM
Has the Beltran vs. RJ argument actually reared it's ugly head again??? I thought that had finally disappeared. Guess not.

As for Damon, IF we have to sign him, I'd rather give him a type of deal like Furcal (but for less money)... three years at more per year, rather than four years at less. Some other stupid team will probably overpay for him. Hopefully the Sox will give him some nasty 5 year w/a 6 year option contract. Either that or some other team and then the Sox have a hole in CF. Either way, if the Yanks aren't dumb about this, the Damon situation could end up being a win/win for them.

Spiker101
12-11-05, 07:08 PM
you've got to be kidding me! we're paying 48 million dollars for a HOF pitcher who just happened to have an off year (in which he pitched ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE), instead of spending 100 million dollars on an ABOVE AVERAGE center fielder who probably has one of the most over-valued contracts of all time (see: Chan Ho Park) and just proved it by batting .266 with a .330 obp. And how is Damon better than, or going to be cheaper than the FA crop of center fielders available next year? Yes, if he is available at 4/40 then sure, sign him with the intention of DHing after 2 years. But any more years or money than that, and he is way too expensive. Navarro will be a league average catcher at best, its not difficult to sign or trade for one of those.

It's okay to forgive and not be concerned when a 42-year-old pitcher making nearly $50 million in the first year of a three-year deal but panic when a 28-year-old CFer with a great track record has what is clearly an off-season. This business of calling Beltran a mediocre or above average CFer is nonsense. He finished second in OPS among centerfielders in 2004, second in OPS in 2003, sixth in 2002, third in 2001, all the time providing great defense and being a threat on the basepaths. Beltran is an elite centerfielder. You have to pay for that.

But once again I ask you all who are these inexpensive quality CFers who are going to be available next off season. I can't figure out who you all are talking about.

goin for 27
12-11-05, 07:55 PM
you've got to be kidding me! we're paying 48 million dollars for a HOF pitcher who just happened to have an off year.


Maybe.

Or he has a chronic back and knee problems that are catching up with him, and is in serious decline. He IS going to turn 42 next season.

Time will tell.

noneckwilliams
12-11-05, 08:03 PM
All Beltrans numbers do is prove that he's inconsistant.



He's an inconsistant, overrated outfielder, and overpaid.

, sorry.

Not signing Beltran was a huge mistake that the Yankees have been paying for in spades. Whether it's Damon at 5 yrs $60 mil (which is what it will take) or prospects, finding a CFer to replace Bernie is gonna cost the Yankees.

They should have used the one resource they had (money) and overpaid for Beltran. They will likely overpay for whomever they get anyway.

mrbawm
12-11-05, 08:05 PM
Yup. Like that time the Sox were smart enough to walk away from that overpaid bum Clemens. Look at the crappy seasons he had when he came to New York.

In terms of ability relative to their position Damon and Clemens should not be mentioned in the same sentence. Surely, that's not your best example.

mrbawm
12-11-05, 08:23 PM
An off year? Like it's been stated before he's 42. We're in the uncharted territory area for pitchers. Anyone who thinks guys like Johnson and Mussina are locks to rebound because they had an "off year" is pretty delusional. They're a lock for absolutely nothing next season.

We didn't pay 52 million dollars plus our only viable catching prospect and the money on Javy's contract so Johnson could be a league average pitcher.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-11-05, 10:30 PM
Johnson wasn't injured. He has chronic back problems and has had them for the past decade. What you see is what you get.

Before 2003, he had 6 straight seasons where he averaged about 34 starts a season. So the back isn't too serious of an issue...



And for god's sake don't quote career stats for a player who's 42 years old. He used to be a great pitcher. He wasn't last year and the chances of him being anything more than slightly above average in 2006 are not good. As for 2007 ... well.

Why not? Its not like he has been on a consistent decline for the last 10 years, he has been a dominant pitcher, and he deserves his due until he shows he can no longer be that pitcher. If you want to say next year he will or in 2007 thats fine, but thats BS. There is no reason why he can't still dominate, his stuff was great when he had his mechanics down toward the end of the year. There has been no indication in terms of stuff that show he will decline...



Navarro isn't major league ready. OK, but Posada isn't ready to retire either. Jorge will be gone as an everyday catcher by 2008 and lo and behold Navarro should be ready then, but there's no Navarro there. And no other catching prospect in the system worth a damn. You can't spin this any other way than a simple mistake of expecting Randy Johnson not to age like a mortal creature.

The only person who is spinning things is you. Navarro hasn't shown any power or any great skills behind the plate, the only thing he has shown is an OBP of .350. I'm sure a solid defensive catcher can be had by 2008. RJ will age or maybe even decline some put his peak is so high, he will still be one of the best pitchers in the league...



Beltran had an off-year, one off-year. Probably because he was pressing under the pressure of the big contract. But to say he isn't good is ignoring the facts. At age 27, he had a .927 OPS, what you call playing out of his mind. Most players turn in their best seasons at age 27, that's the peak year of most careers. But it's not like his previous five seasons were so much worse. He had a .901 OPS in '04, a .911 in '03, an .847 in '02, and an 876 in '01at the age of 22. Most of these seasons were in KC, not a hitter's paradise. Beltran in addition is not a good defensive outfielder, he's a great defensive outfielder. He's also a good baserunner, having stolen as many as 40 sacks a year.

Yeah, thats the kind of player we need on the Yankees, someone who folds under pressure. One off year? You can't just throw out 99' and 00' because they don't support your argument. 2001 he was solid (OPS+ 119), 2002 offense went down (OPS+108), then in 2003 and 2004 he has great seasons. But now his decline was great. He has been inconsistent as a hitter, but he did have 3 seasons of improvement. From 2000-2003, Beltran's UZR was +4, I don't consider that great. Also this year he didn't steal many bases and stole at a clip of 73% which would of hurt the offense on the Yankees, but yes throughout his career he has been a great basestealer...



But all this is water under the bridge. I really would be curious who you think the Yanks could pick up over the year or two that would be both better and cheaper than Damon.

I think the Yankees should go after Granderson or even Reed,,,

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 10:36 PM
Johnson was great in the second half last year and AMaZING in september, right around the time he fixed his mechanics. When he fixed his mechanics he was throwing 96 with that good slider. IMO there is plenty a reason to believe he will be good in 2006.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 10:40 PM
An off year? Like it's been stated before he's 42. We're in the uncharted territory area for pitchers. Anyone who thinks guys like Johnson and Mussina are locks to rebound because they had an "off year" is pretty delusional. They're a lock for absolutely nothing next season.

We didn't pay 52 million dollars plus our only viable catching prospect and the money on Javy's contract so Johnson could be a league average pitcher.

The thing is Randy has been old for a while now, and with the exception of the first half of 2005 it hasnt stopped him. He figured it out in the second half once he fixed his mechanics, talked to his old pitching coach and started having more throwing sessions. Mussina I agree will further decline, but Randy when he was mechanically right(you could tell by comparing his mechanics to videos of him in 2004) still had his good stuff 96 MPG fastball consistantly with good control. The Slider wasnt how it was a few years ago but it was still nasty. He seemed to fix his mechanics after talking to Kerrigan(and some input from Mel and Flaherty)

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-11-05, 10:41 PM
Maybe.

Or he has a chronic back and knee problems that are catching up with him, and is in serious decline. He IS going to turn 42 next season.

Time will tell.

With the exception of 2003 he has been as healthy as an ox the past 6 years. His problems last year were mechanical with the exception of 1 or 2 games.

Jersey Yankee
12-11-05, 11:00 PM
The article says that the Red Sox are still the favorites though
That sounds good. I can't consider 4 years of someone who's not even a crowd favorite. With Bernie, it was because of his immense popularity (and enormous contract) that people looked the other way re the arm and his keeping CF. Damon should try out for LF, since his arm isn't much.

I just wish that Toronto were having a fire sale, since we could've used Vernon Wells.

wileedog
12-11-05, 11:04 PM
The thing is Randy has been old for a while now, and with the exception of the first half of 2005 it hasnt stopped him. He figured it out in the second half once he fixed his mechanics, talked to his old pitching coach and started having more throwing sessions. Mussina I agree will further decline, but Randy when he was mechanically right(you could tell by comparing his mechanics to videos of him in 2004) still had his good stuff 96 MPG fastball consistantly with good control. The Slider wasnt how it was a few years ago but it was still nasty. He seemed to fix his mechanics after talking to Kerrigan(and some input from Mel and Flaherty)

What we saw a little of last year is that it will only take a small amount of decline to have a big effect on Randy.

RJ is not some crafty lefty with a bunch of pitches to fool hitters with. He has a fastball and a slider, and as we saw when he loses some velocity on the fastball and/or some break on the slider, he becomes a very hittable pitcher.

My worry with Randy is that there won't be a slow, acceptable decline. When it goes, it may go quickly. And at age 42 losing a few MPH off your fastball ain't exactly uncommon. More so at 43.

nahzo
12-11-05, 11:42 PM
The only person who is spinning things is you. Navarro hasn't shown any power or any great skills behind the plate, the only thing he has shown is an OBP of .350. I'm sure a solid defensive catcher can be had by 2008. RJ will age or maybe even decline some put his peak is so high, he will still be one of the best pitchers in the league...
I think you're being completely unrealistic with your expectations of what a 21 year old catching prospect in a half year of the majors should be capable of. Even if he doesn't develop much power, a catcher getting on base at .350 and better is really rare. Joe Mauer is an example of such a rare young MLB starter with a good OBP, and even he "only" slugged .411 last year.


Yeah, thats the kind of player we need on the Yankees, someone who folds under pressure. One off year? You can't just throw out 99' and 00' because they don't support your argument. 2001 he was solid (OPS+ 119), 2002 offense went down (OPS+108), then in 2003 and 2004 he has great seasons. But now his decline was great. He has been inconsistent as a hitter, but he did have 3 seasons of improvement. From 2000-2003, Beltran's UZR was +4, I don't consider that great. Also this year he didn't steal many bases and stole at a clip of 73% which would of hurt the offense on the Yankees, but yes throughout his career he has been a great basestealer...
I also think you are being unrealistic with your expectations of what a typical MLB CF should be capable of doing. The average CFer will net about .400-475 points of SLG. From 2002-2004, Carlos' SLG was continually growing beyond .500. Combine that with good defense and his age, and it was obvious what decision should have been made.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-12-05, 12:01 AM
I think you're being completely unrealistic with your expectations of what a 21 year old catching prospect in a half year of the majors should be capable of. Even if he doesn't develop much power, a catcher getting on base at .350 and better is really rare. Joe Mauer is an example of such a rare young MLB starter with a good OBP, and even he "only" slugged .411 last year.

His defensive skills are lacking, thats what this team needs, not another bat. Yes, it would of been great to keep him but I'd still rather have RJ because a SP of his caliber is never available. Yes, but Mauer also slugged better in the minors as well as having a high OBP and being a great defensive catcher. Maur is by far a superior player at this point. It sucks we lost him but until he develops as a catcher, he is nothing but a 1st baseman who can't hit for power...



I also think you are being unrealistic with your expectations of what a typical MLB CF should be capable of doing. The average CFer will net about .400-475 points of SLG. From 2002-2004, Carlos' SLG was continually growing beyond .500. Combine that with good defense and his age, and it was obvious what decision should have been made.

Like I said Beltran was great in those years but as you can see by this year, just isn't that good. I'd rather not have another L-Term contract on the books that would of crippled the spending for the next 7 years. I rather have someone like Granderson or Reed who are young, and can potentially be better than Beltran as well as being a bunch cheaper. A SP is more important than any position player, don't forget that...

mrbawm
12-12-05, 06:50 AM
The thing is Randy has been old for a while now, and with the exception of the first half of 2005 it hasnt stopped him. He figured it out in the second half once he fixed his mechanics, talked to his old pitching coach and started having more throwing sessions. Mussina I agree will further decline, but Randy when he was mechanically right(you could tell by comparing his mechanics to videos of him in 2004) still had his good stuff 96 MPG fastball consistantly with good control. The Slider wasnt how it was a few years ago but it was still nasty. He seemed to fix his mechanics after talking to Kerrigan(and some input from Mel and Flaherty)

Coming from another angle, bad mechanics may often be a sign that a pitcher is hiding an injury. For example, Vazquez's mechanics were completely out of whack while he was here, he was compensating for an injury somewhere else.

Do you really want to be relying on putting all your money on black and letting it ride? Sure he's been old but that doesn't make him the type of player to build a rotation around.

mrbawm
12-12-05, 06:52 AM
With the exception of 2003 he has been as healthy as an ox the past 6 years. His problems last year were mechanical with the exception of 1 or 2 games.

Do most people think Clemens is likely to go down next year? Probably. He's barely been injured in the past 6 years.

Spiker101
12-12-05, 07:46 AM
I think the Yankees should go after Granderson or even Reed,,,

Reed just doesn't have the range for center at the Stadium, as nice a young player as he is. Granderson I like very much and yeah let's go get him. What will it cost? Cano or Wang, at least. Probably have to throw in another good prospect as well. For the Yanks at this stage of the game, prospects are more valuable than money. Granderson will be very expensive. The other problem of course is that after 2006, the Yanks are also going to need a right-fielder. I don't particularly like Damon either, but I'm afraid he's the best option and will remain the best option for the foreseeable future. I'm not going to harp on Beltran any more because that's ancient history, but the larger lesson is that if you put off solving your problems, they don't go away but merely grow worse with time.

Yankees1962
12-12-05, 07:56 AM
I don't the Tigers are interested in trading Granderson because they view him as their long-term solution in CF.

NewEraYanks2527
12-12-05, 09:41 AM
Do most people think Clemens is likely to go down next year? Probably. He's barely been injured in the past 6 years.
He gets a groin injury and misses a couple starts because of it just about about every year.

Kulish29
12-12-05, 10:12 AM
Reed just doesn't have the range for center at the Stadium, as nice a young player as he is. Granderson I like very much and yeah let's go get him. What will it cost? Cano or Wang, at least. Probably have to throw in another good prospect as well. For the Yanks at this stage of the game, prospects are more valuable than money. Granderson will be very expensive. The other problem of course is that after 2006, the Yanks are also going to need a right-fielder. I don't particularly like Damon either, but I'm afraid he's the best option and will remain the best option for the foreseeable future. I'm not going to harp on Beltran any more because that's ancient history, but the larger lesson is that if you put off solving your problems, they don't go away but merely grow worse with time.

Reed seems to have enough range for the enormous Safeco field. Wasnt he the top fielding CF'er in the majors last year?

StatenIslandYankee
12-12-05, 10:24 AM
All Beltrans numbers do is prove that he's inconsistant.

In 1999, he hit .293 for KC, in 2000 he hit .247.
In 2001, he hit .306 for KC, in 2002 he hit .273.
In 2003, he hit .307 for KC, in 2004 he hit .278 for KC, and .258 for HOU.

He's an inconsistant, overrated outfielder, and overpaid.

And get real about Johnson being one of the worst trades in Yankee history. I'm not shedding any tears for Javier Vazquez leaving. Navarro may come back to bite us, but it won't qualify as one of the worst trades ever, sorry.
Even Johnson's worst years (last year) is still better than Javy's best. I still don't see why people are complaining about this trade. I had enough with the age issue, it's about ability not age. Age is important, but talent overrides that.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 10:45 AM
Even Johnson's worst years (last year) is still better than Javy's best. I still don't see why people are complaining about this trade. I had enough with the age issue, it's about ability not age. Age is important, but talent overrides that.

At least I know I'm not the only one who thought the RJ trade wasn't a bad idea. Another interesting tid bit: Javier Vazquez is reportedly being looked at by, who else, THE METS.

NewEraYanks2527
12-12-05, 11:57 AM
Even Johnson's worst years (last year) is still better than Javy's best. I still don't see why people are complaining about this trade. I had enough with the age issue, it's about ability not age. Age is important, but talent overrides that. I also don't see why people are complaning about the trade unless now the focus is to how Navarro is coming along, other than that I really do not see a reason to complain about the trade. RJ led the Yankees in wins, ERA, and K's last year. He beat our lead rivals in the division I think it was 5 times, including the clincher to win the AL East. Enough people.

wileedog
12-12-05, 12:31 PM
I also don't see why people are complaning about the trade unless now the focus is to how Navarro is coming along, other than that I really do not see a reason to complain about the trade.

You mean other than that little detail that we had the worst CF play in the league last year, and are looking at a return of Bubba Crosby this year in CF (with the added bonus of some more Bernie moonlighting)? And the remedy may be Johnny Damon for 4-5 years, which somehow is certainly no where's near as "crippling" as 27 year old Beltran for 6 or 7?

Or better yet we might get to trade decent prospects for another teams 4th OFer to have someone - anyone - who is not as horrible as Bubba out there?

Nope, nothing to complain about here.

mjdlight
12-12-05, 12:44 PM
Another interesting tid bit: Javier Vazquez is reportedly being looked at by, who else, THE METS.

Javier on a big stage? Have fun with that, Mets.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-12-05, 01:25 PM
Reed just doesn't have the range for center at the Stadium, as nice a young player as he is. Granderson I like very much and yeah let's go get him. What will it cost? Cano or Wang, at least. Probably have to throw in another good prospect as well. For the Yanks at this stage of the game, prospects are more valuable than money. Granderson will be very expensive. The other problem of course is that after 2006, the Yanks are also going to need a right-fielder. I don't particularly like Damon either, but I'm afraid he's the best option and will remain the best option for the foreseeable future. I'm not going to harp on Beltran any more because that's ancient history, but the larger lesson is that if you put off solving your problems, they don't go away but merely grow worse with time.

Reed is an amazing CFer, better than Granderson and Damon. It's been reported that Reed or Granderson have been offered for Pavano. I'm not saying problems go away by themselves but adding more L-term overvvalued contracts to a team already filled with them, isn't a good idea for the future...

mrbawm
12-12-05, 05:55 PM
I also don't see why people are complaning about the trade unless now the focus is to how Navarro is coming along, other than that I really do not see a reason to complain about the trade. RJ led the Yankees in wins, ERA, and K's last year. He beat our lead rivals in the division I think it was 5 times, including the clincher to win the AL East. Enough people.

He also pitched to the tune of an ERA+ of 117. Wow. Then he lost his most important start of the year and didn't even battle and lose, he got knocked all over the park losing us the game almost immediately.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:05 PM
He also pitched to the tune of an ERA+ of 117. Wow. Then he lost his most important start of the year and didn't even battle and lose, he got knocked all over the park losing us the game almost immediately.

I would like to think that the most important game of the year was Game 5, where Johnson pitched great in relief and the Yankees couldn't lay a finger on Santana.

P.S.: Aaron Small, Tanyon Sturtze, and Tom Gordon surrendered the runs that did the Yankees in in Game 3. After Johnson game out, the Yankees rallied to be ahead 6-5. But lets continue to call Game 5 soley Randy Johnsons fault.

wileedog
12-12-05, 06:34 PM
I would like to think that the most important game of the year was Game 5, where Johnson pitched great in relief and the Yankees couldn't lay a finger on Santana.
If he does his job in Game 3, there is no Game 5.


P.S.: Aaron Small, Tanyon Sturtze, and Tom Gordon surrendered the runs that did the Yankees in in Game 3. After Johnson game out, the Yankees rallied to be ahead 6-5. But lets continue to call Game 5 soley Randy Johnsons fault.

Again, if he does his job, Aaron Small and likely Sturtze never get in the game.

Just sayin.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:37 PM
If he does his job in Game 3, there is no Game 5.

Not denying that at all. Johnson didn't pitch well in Game 3 at all, but Game 3 could've been won without him doing well if he had a some backing behind him.

Spiker101
12-12-05, 06:37 PM
Sturtze, and Tom Gordon surrendered the runs that did the Yankees in in Game 3. After Johnson game out, the Yankees rallied to be ahead 6-5. But lets continue to call Game 5 soley Randy Johnsons fault.

You don't pay a pitcher $16 million to perform the way RJ did in game three. He does his job and the Yanks move on. The Big Unit has been the Big Bust, so far.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:48 PM
You don't pay a pitcher $16 million to perform the way RJ did in game three. He does his job and the Yanks move on. The Big Unit has been the Big Bust, so far.

We don't pay Matsui and A-Rod their salaries to bat .200 and .195 with 1 RBI and 1 HR between them etheir. Anyone else you want to start a witch hunt on besides Johnson?

NewEraYanks2527
12-12-05, 06:53 PM
Not denying that at all. Johnson didn't pitch well in Game 3 at all, but Game 3 could've been won without him doing well if he had a some backing behind him.
Exactly and let us not forget that Small who had been good for the Yanks all year, also gave up some key runs. The game 3 loss can not be solely put on Randy Johnson and if A-Rod or Matsui get a big hit and game 5 Johnson's relief appearance would have been one of the biggest performances of that series.

Spiker101
12-12-05, 06:53 PM
We don't pay Matsui and A-Rod their salaries to bat .200 and .195 with 1 RBI and 1 HR between them etheir. Anyone else you want to start a witch hunt on besides Johnson?

No, I'm sticking with Randy Johnson. His performance in 2005 was the single biggest reason there was no parade in October. Hitters, as you know, blow and cold, that's just the way the game works. The so-called ace is supposed to be money, that's why they get $16 million. Johnson was about as far from money in '06 as you can get. He knows that, even if you don't.

ryanthe13th
12-12-05, 06:58 PM
No, I'm sticking with Randy Johnson. His performance in 2005 was the single biggest reason there was no parade in October. Hitters, as you know, blow and cold, that's just the way the game works. The so-called ace is supposed to be money, that's why they get $16 million. Johnson was about as far from money in '06 as you can get. He knows that, even if you don't.

Alrighty. Keep ignoring the fact that Johnson won the game that clinched the AL East title for us, was the only starter besides Chacon that didn't spend time on the DL, had a 2.17 ERA in September, and was 8-3 vs AL East teams.

Spiker101
12-12-05, 07:03 PM
Reed seems to have enough range for the enormous Safeco field. Wasnt he the top fielding CF'er in the majors last year?

The book on him is that he doesn't get the best jumps or take the best routes to the ball and doesn't have the speed to overcome either problem. If you basing you contention that he's the best CFer in the game on some defensive metric, you have to argue with someone else. I don't buy defensive stats for reasons that would take all night to explain.

NewEraYanks2527
12-12-05, 07:08 PM
He also pitched to the tune of an ERA+ of 117. Wow. Then he lost his most important start of the year and didn't even battle and lose, he got knocked all over the park losing us the game almost immediately.
So yea the Yankees didn't come back at all in that game and Aaron Small, a far superior pitcher than Johnson backed by his perfect 10-0 record, didn't give up the lead after the Yankees had come back. Oh and of course Johnson didn't come back in relief and a timely hit by Matsui or A-Rod would have meant that he could have been the game 5 hero for bailing Mussina out.


You mean other than that little detail that we had the worst CF play in the league last year, and are looking at a return of Bubba Crosby this year in CF (with the added bonus of some more Bernie moonlighting)? And the remedy may be Johnny Damon for 4-5 years, which somehow is certainly no where's near as "crippling" as 27 year old Beltran for 6 or 7?

So Beltran would have won us the division? He would have made all the pitching woes go away too and the fact that we had just about every starter go down with an injury would have been avoided and the one guy that led the team in wins, K's, and ERA could have been replaced with Carlos Beltran's production? No. It doesn't work that way, put Beltran in center last year and with all the injuries to the pitching staff the Yankees probably do not make the playoffs. With Beltran in center and no Randy Johnson you would probably be complaining that the Yankees have no ace and no consistant starter to anchor the staff and thus that is why they missed the playoffs. I'm sorrt the love affair with Beltran is old and I would rather have Randy Johnson on this team. Just think without the Unit last year the Yankees would be in such dire need for ANOTHER starter they might have dones something really irrational before the trade deadline. But hey we would still have an overrated overpaid Beltran in CF....HOORAY!

Spiker101
12-12-05, 07:14 PM
Alrighty. Keep ignoring the fact that Johnson won the game that clinched the AL East title for us, was the only starter besides Chacon that didn't spend time on the DL, had a 2.17 ERA in September, and was 8-3 vs AL East teams.

I don't understand why you want to deny the obvious, when Randy Johnson himself would tell you he let down the team.
He finished fourth in the league in HRs allowed with 32, compared to the 18 he gave up the previous year.
His K/9 went from 10.62 in '04 to 8.42 last year. His OPS-against soared from .555 to .697. Whew.
RJ was a slightly above average starter last year, and you don't pay $16 million for a slightly above hurler.