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View Full Version : Maybe now is the time to get Carlos Beltran?



CaptainThurman
11-27-05, 01:01 PM
I remember last winter, when the entire world thought that Beltran was all but locked up for the Yankees. It turned out that the payroll issue became sensitive for the first time, and $17 million a year was considered too much for someone who didn't even hit .300.

Well, a year has passed and the Yankees are in need of a center fielder. Maybe there's a way to pull it off in a 3-way trade that would make sense all the way around?

How about Pavano to the Rangers for Soriano, and then Soriano and Small to the Mutts for Beltran and enough cash to make Beltran a $14 million a year outfielder instead of a $17 million a year ballplayer?

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 01:02 PM
He still isn't worth 14m a year...

DiMaggio5CF
11-27-05, 01:14 PM
The Mets already traded Cameron, so unless they're willing to go with Lastings Milledge as the full-time CFer . . .

I don't think even the Mets are crazy enough to go into the season without a centerfielder.

highheat2014
11-27-05, 01:15 PM
I remember last winter, when the entire world thought that Beltran was all but locked up for the Yankees. It turned out that the payroll issue became sensitive for the first time, and $17 million a year was considered too much for someone who didn't even hit .300.

Well, a year has passed and the Yankees are in need of a center fielder. Maybe there's a way to pull it off in a 3-way trade that would make sense all the way around?

How about Pavano to the Rangers for Soriano, and then Soriano and Small to the Mutts for Beltran and enough cash to make Beltran a $14 million a year outfielder instead of a $17 million a year ballplayer?

The Mets would NEVER do that. I think even Omar Minaya realizes Aaron Small's actual value.

CaptainThurman
11-27-05, 01:17 PM
The Mets already traded Cameron, so unless they're willing to go with Lastings Milledge as the full-time CFer . . .

I don't think even the Mets are crazy enough to go into the season without a centerfielder.

Well, I agree with you, but why did they get Xavier Nady? And wasn't there some talk (or speculation) that Omar was interested in Soriano possibly as a center fielder, because he had Matsui at 2B?

Snatch Catch
11-27-05, 01:22 PM
The Mets would NEVER do that. I think even Omar Minaya realizes Aaron Small's actual value.

I bet if his name was Aaron Smallinez, Minaya would be all over it.

38Special
11-27-05, 01:24 PM
http://tinypic.com/hvp0mw.jpg

Don Mack
11-27-05, 01:42 PM
I think we will eventually snatch Beltran away from the Mets when they fire Minaya for spending too much money and not producing a winner. Beltran didn't do well because he plays in spacious Shea. But put him into the #2 slot at Yankee Stadium where he doesn't have to be the big gun, and I'll bet we see a whole different player. Bobby Murcer had a terrible time at Shea because the outfield is so deep.

I'd say give it another year or two and we get him for that $14 mil a year.

NewEraYanks2527
11-27-05, 01:42 PM
Again with the Beltran thing. Let it go.

Jasbro
11-27-05, 01:44 PM
I remember last winter, when the entire world thought that Beltran was all but locked up for the Yankees. It turned out that the payroll issue became sensitive for the first time, and $17 million a year was considered too much for someone who didn't even hit .300.

Well, a year has passed and the Yankees are in need of a center fielder. Maybe there's a way to pull it off in a 3-way trade that would make sense all the way around?

How about Pavano to the Rangers for Soriano, and then Soriano and Small to the Mutts for Beltran and enough cash to make Beltran a $14 million a year outfielder instead of a $17 million a year ballplayer?

At this point, Beltran is not even a $10mm CF until he shows otherwise.

But for the sake of discussion, even if he was a $14mm CF, as you suggest, who sends the pile of cash to the Rangers that would undoubtedly be needed for such a deal?

Why would they move Soriano if there was not a salary dump involved? By the time all is said and done, Beltran would effective be costing us close to $20mm in your proposed deal...

YankeePride1967
11-27-05, 01:46 PM
No thanks.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 01:54 PM
I'll take him, if they're willing to take on major salary (Posada, Pavano, Wright).

Since even the Mets aren't that stupid, then no thanks. We should've just signed him when we had the chance.

SINCE77 2
11-27-05, 01:59 PM
At this point, Beltran is not even a $10mm CF until he shows otherwise.

But for the sake of discussion, even if he was a $14mm CF, as you suggest, who sends the pile of cash to the Rangers that would undoubtedly be needed for such a deal?

Why would they move Soriano if there was not a salary dump involved? By the time all is said and done, Beltran would effective be costing us close to $20mm in your proposed deal...



I always looked at Beltran as no more than a 8-10mill player, but a half season in Houston made people throw reasoning out the window. Let the Mets continue paying for their mistake the same way the Yanks are paying for some of theirs.

Dr. Gonzo
11-27-05, 02:09 PM
Omar is realizing his transformation dreams, why would he trade one oh his cogs. And I stress 'his', I doubt he would be dumping the guys that he brought in already.

MisterNovember
11-27-05, 02:11 PM
I'll take him, if they're willing to take on major salary (Posada, Pavano, Wright).

Since even the Mets aren't that stupid, then no thanks. We should've just signed him when we had the chance.

Why? So we could dramatically overpay him rather than the Mets? I still don't understand why fans on this board still have such a boner for Beltran.

SI Baseballman
11-27-05, 02:16 PM
Beltran for Hughes and Duncan (to replace the two prospects we lost this week, and then having them shipped to Boston for Manny)

or

Beltran for Moose (gives the Mets a legit #2 guy behind Pedro)

or

Beltran for A-Rod (with Reyes shifting to second again for the Mets)

Those are the only way I'd give him up, and I doubt Yankees fans would make any of those 3 trades

AMYanks
11-27-05, 02:17 PM
Why? So we could dramatically overpay him rather than the Mets? I still don't understand why fans on this board still have such a boner for Beltran.

If the Yankees wanted him, they should have signed him when he was a free agent, when he would have been cheaper. I don't have a "boner" for Beltran, this is just the truth.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 02:23 PM
Beltran for A-Rod (with Reyes shifting to second again for the Mets)

Those are the only way I'd give him up, and I doubt Yankees fans would make any of those 3 trades

With all due respect, are you fu*king insane?

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 02:23 PM
Beltran for Hughes and Duncan (to replace the two prospects we lost this week, and then having them shipped to Boston for Manny)

or

Beltran for Moose (gives the Mets a legit #2 guy behind Pedro)

or

Beltran for A-Rod (with Reyes shifting to second again for the Mets)

Those are the only way I'd give him up, and I doubt Yankees fans would make any of those 3 trades

Id do the Beltran for Moose in a second, and id do the Beltran for Duncan and hughes if Beltran was actually worth what everyone seems to think he is worth, no way you are getting A-rod though.

That being said some people need to get it through their heads that BELTRAN WILL NEVER BE A YANKEE!!!!!!

AMYanks
11-27-05, 02:33 PM
Beltran for Hughes and Duncan (to replace the two prospects we lost this week, and then having them shipped to Boston for Manny)

or

Beltran for Moose (gives the Mets a legit #2 guy behind Pedro)

or

Beltran for A-Rod (with Reyes shifting to second again for the Mets)

Those are the only way I'd give him up, and I doubt Yankees fans would make any of those 3 trades

1. No way
2. Moose has 1 year left on a bad contract, Beltran has 6. I'll take the former.
3. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha..... No.

SI Baseballman
11-27-05, 02:34 PM
With all due respect, are you fu*king insane?

only on days that end in y.

YankeePride1967
11-27-05, 02:35 PM
Beltran for Hughes and Duncan (to replace the two prospects we lost this week, and then having them shipped to Boston for Manny)

or

Beltran for Moose (gives the Mets a legit #2 guy behind Pedro)

or

Beltran for A-Rod (with Reyes shifting to second again for the Mets)

Those are the only way I'd give him up, and I doubt Yankees fans would make any of those 3 trades

Let me preface this by saying I would not do any of these trades, but if there were no choice and I had to choose one, I'd do the Moose one.

NewEraYanks2527
11-27-05, 02:46 PM
I'd rather trade for Lastings Miledge than Carlos Beltran.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 02:50 PM
I'd rather trade for Lastings Miledge than Carlos Beltran.

Moose for Milledge. :D

keg411
11-27-05, 02:56 PM
I want NO part whatsoever of Beltran. That contract is disgusting and he's not that good of a player.

I'd consider Moose for Milledge, but we'd still have to overpay for one of the FA pitchers. But Moose is getting old and his contract is huge... although then we'd have the advantage of signing an actual stopgap CF'er (because although we have a bunch of promising minor leagu OF'ers, the closest is probably at least 2 if not 3 years away, whereas Milledge is probably only a year away).

ETA: I know it's an insane, stupid pipdream and will never happen. It's fun to speculate off of stupid things. I do stand by my first statement about Beltran.

Munson's 'Stash
11-27-05, 02:57 PM
I may be sort of new around here, and therefor missing something, but I took SI Baseballman's post as an indicator of how silly and fundamentally unrealistic the first proposed trade in the thread was.

The Yankees days of sprinkling the contents of their wallet over their mistakes to aquire players on other teams is over.

NewEraYanks2527
11-27-05, 03:11 PM
Moose for Milledge. :D
Oh what a dream come true.

ieddyi
11-27-05, 03:20 PM
Again with the Beltran thing. Let it go.

Really, maybe after another year of vastly underperfroming his contract the clamor might die down

NewEraYanks2527
11-27-05, 03:21 PM
Really, maybe after another year of vastly underperfroming his contract the clamor might die down
We can only hope.

marietta_soxfan
11-27-05, 03:26 PM
Beltran for Hughes and Duncan (to replace the two prospects we lost this week, and then having them shipped to Boston for Manny)


I don't see why Boston would want Duncan or Hughes.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 03:32 PM
I don't see why Boston would want Duncan or Hughes.

I'm sure they'd be willing to take a 19 year old stud pitching prospect, and a 20 year old 3B/1B with big time potential.

KissTheRings
11-27-05, 03:33 PM
I don't see why Boston would want Duncan or Hughes.

Are you saying this in relation to a ramirez trade or are you saying you don't think the sox would place any value in hughes or duncan period?

marietta_soxfan
11-27-05, 03:37 PM
Are you saying this in relation to a ramirez trade or are you saying you don't think the sox would place any value in hughes or duncan period?


The Manny trade. It would take alot more to get Manny even if the Mets included even more prospects. The Sox can't ever seem to have perminant place Youk and he was highly reguarded at one point as well so I don't know if they would have a need for Duncan. They probably could use Hughes though.

Yankees13
11-27-05, 03:41 PM
I'm sure they'd be willing to take a 19 year old stud pitching prospect, and a 20 year old 3B/1B with big time potential.
I guess they're not good enough for their stocked to the brim system.

Seamonk
11-27-05, 03:44 PM
No offense.


But many here undervalue Carlos Beltran.

And many here undervalue the Mets.

And many here undervalue the Mets Front Office.

DiMaggio5CF
11-27-05, 03:46 PM
But many here undervalue Carlos Beltran.


He may be a bit undervalued right now, but coming into the 2005 season, he was very, very OVERvalued -- especially by the Mets.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 03:46 PM
The Manny trade. It would take alot more to get Manny even if the Mets included even more prospects. The Sox can't ever seem to have perminant place Youk and he was highly reguarded at one point as well so I don't know if they would have a need for Duncan. They probably could use Hughes though.

I would still want Duncan if I were the Red Sox, as he could play first and thats a problem area for the Sox. Duncan also imo has greater upside than Youk(who is around 25 and MLB ready) while still being in AA, so it could work out good if you had both as 3b. Use the MLB ready Youkilis until Duncan with the upside is ready(if he pans out) and then you trade Youk for something of value.

Seamonk
11-27-05, 03:48 PM
He may be a bit undervalued right now, but coming into the 2005 season, he was very, very OVERvalued -- especially by the Mets.

Believe me.

Not signing Carlos Beltran was when it all went very, very wrong for the Yankees...

AMYanks
11-27-05, 03:52 PM
No offense.


But many here undervalue Carlos Beltran.

And many here undervalue the Mets.

And many here undervalue the Mets Front Office.

Beltran is not undervalued. He's not a good enough player to justify the contract he was given. It was based on playing in Minute Maid Park, and tearing it up in the postseason.

Before this, he was considered, at the most, 5 yrs., $70M.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 03:54 PM
No offense.


But many here undervalue Carlos Beltran.
I see him for what he is, a .282/.350/.414 CF with good defense, who has a contract worth a CF with Tori Hunter's defense and Albert Pujols' offense

And many here undervalue the Mets.
They are a team with a great but aging ace, good number 2 guy but overall mediocre staff, bullpen problems and an good overall offense but nothing amazing.
And many here undervalue the Mets Front Office
Well they have made some very stupid moves. Trading Kazmir, giving an aging pedro that long contract, giving Beltran that huge contract, trading cameron, just to name a few recent ones.

Seamonk
11-27-05, 03:55 PM
Beltran is not undervalued. He's not a good enough player to justify the contract he was given. It was based on playing in Minute Maid Park, and tearing it up in the postseason.

Before this, he was considered, at the most, 5 yrs., $70M.

See what he does hitting in front of Wright and Delgado.

Then picture what he would have done hitting in front of Sheff and A-Rod.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 03:55 PM
Believe me.

Not signing Carlos Beltran was when it all went very, very wrong for the Yankees...

For the short term it was only because bernie was horrible but if we had to give him that contract to get him than it was a good move long term.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 03:56 PM
See what he does hitting in front of Wright and Delgado.

Then picture what he would have done hitting in front of Sheff and A-Rod.

hed still be a .282/.350/.414 hitter

Seamonk
11-27-05, 04:03 PM
No offense.

And many here undervalue the Mets Front Office
Well they have made some very stupid moves. Trading Kazmir, giving an aging pedro that long contract, giving Beltran that huge contract, trading cameron, just to name a few recent ones.

It was the previous GM who traded Kazmir. Not Omar Minaya.

An aging Pedro won 15 games and left with a number of leads that Braden Looper personally handed away.

He overpaid Beltran. But I'd be more comfortable with him in the lineup that I would be with Jason Michaels. Heck. He might even be better than Bubba Crosby.

And he traded Mike Cameron for a guy who was 6 years younger and $6M cheaper who will probably put up similar numbers.

But hey.

They're the Mutts.

Take comfort in that as we sit by helplessly and watch them take the town back.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 04:09 PM
It was the previous GM who traded Kazmir. Not Omar Minaya.

An aging Pedro won 15 games and left with a number of leads that Braden Looper personally handed away.

He overpaid Beltran. But I'd be more comfortable with him in the lineup that I would be with Jason Michaels. Heck. He might even be better than Bubba Crosby.

And he traded Mike Cameron for a guy who was 6 years younger and $6M cheaper who will probably put up similar numbers.

But hey.

They're the Mutts.

Take comfort in that as we sit by helplessly and watch them take the town back.

Pedro was good for last year and this year but he is declining and always an injury risk, it was stupid to give him the deal that they did.

Id rather have Wilkerson or Bradley for the contracts it would take to get them than Beltran for that huge contract

Cameron is a great defensive outfielder who hit .273/.342/.477 hey that is almost the exact career line of Beltran who is the messiah according to you. Nady is a .263/.320/.414 hitter who isnt as good defensively as Cameron.

BTW the Mets are making stupid moves, they are going with the win now method when the core of their team isnt good enough to win now.

I Love Wang
11-27-05, 04:15 PM
I always looked at Beltran as no more than a 8-10mill player, but a half season in Houston made people throw reasoning out the window. Let the Mets continue paying for their mistake the same way the Yanks are paying for some of theirs.

I don't understand this. Beltran's OPS+ in Houston last year was 136. In Kansas City last year, it was 136. His OPS+ numbers from 2001 were 119, 108, 126, 136. The reason he's so overpaid now is because he regressed to a 95 last year. You did not predict that, nor did anyone else.

Snatch Catch
11-27-05, 04:16 PM
I don't understand this. Beltran's OPS+ in Houston last year was 136. In Kansas City last year, it was 136. His OPS+ numbers from 2001 were 119, 108, 126, 136. The reason he's so overpaid now is because he regressed to a 95 last year. You did not predict that, nor did anyone else.

I came closest.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 04:20 PM
I don't understand this. Beltran's OPS+ in Houston last year was 136. In Kansas City last year, it was 136. His OPS+ numbers from 2001 were 119, 108, 126, 136. The reason he's so overpaid now is because he regressed to a 95 last year. You did not predict that, nor did anyone else.

Those OPS+ numbers are not good enough to justify the contract he received, despite his speed and defense.

Seamonk
11-27-05, 04:23 PM
Pedro was good for last year and this year but he is declining and always an injury risk, it was stupid to give him the deal that they did.



I bet they've already got more value out of Pedro than we ever will out of Wright and Pavano combined....

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 04:28 PM
I bet they've already got more value out of Pedro than we ever will out of Wright and Pavano combined....

agreed but just because the yankees made a few bad moves, doesnt mean that the mets should too.

Fabien Brandy
11-27-05, 04:33 PM
I'd personally trade Mussina to the Mets for Beltran right now. Mussina is due $20.5M ($19M plus a $1.5M buyout) and the Mets already paid for Beltran's 2005 season and the $7M signing bonus.

Beltran's defensive numbers in CF were excellent, he's still entering his prime in terms of age and he really wanted to be a Yankee.

It'd be a risk but they'd actually save money in 2006 for bullpen help.

Sam18
11-27-05, 04:36 PM
The team that wants to give Wagner 15 mil and trade for Soriano to improve OBP is gonna take back the city? :lol:

Seamonk
11-27-05, 04:38 PM
The team that wants to give Wagner 15 mil and trade for Soriano to improve OBP is gonna take back the city? :lol:

I think they already have.

:(

brosiusbuddy
11-27-05, 04:38 PM
I bet if his name was Aaron Smallinez, Minaya would be all over it.

Aaron Pequeno

destro
11-27-05, 04:40 PM
the time to get carlos beltran was dec 2004

that time has passed

move on

and also, see my sig

Mopar Larry
11-27-05, 04:51 PM
No offense.


But many here undervalue Carlos Beltran.

And many here undervalue the Mets.

And many here undervalue the Mets Front Office.

I don't see Omar giving up Beltran after only a year. He'd be casting doubt on his own decision and giving credence to Mets fans who are unhappy with Beltran's lackluster performance last season and see his acquisition as a costly mistake. If the Mets want to do us a favor, sign manny! :D

highheat2014
11-27-05, 04:53 PM
Well, I agree with you, but why did they get Xavier Nady? And wasn't there some talk (or speculation) that Omar was interested in Soriano possibly as a center fielder, because he had Matsui at 2B?

If this wasn't answered already, to dump Cameron's salary to make room for Delgado.

Sam18
11-27-05, 04:53 PM
I think they already have.

:(

You think the mets are better than the Yankees at this point?
Wow.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 04:54 PM
I think they already have.

:(

They are overpaying for guys to win now when they arent good enough to win now, and will be 100% grade A screwed if their network flops.

If they get Soriano they will have 2 sub .320 obp guys at the top of the order. Then they will have two good hitters a decent hitter and crap after that. Their rotation is good with Pedro and Benson, maybe heilman if he repeats but crap after that. The bullpen is in shambles and not even Wagner can fix that mess.

Omar is putting together a vastly exspensive team which while is better than the teams of years passed isnt good enough to win the NL East, let alone get far in the playoffs imo

Fabien Brandy
11-27-05, 05:01 PM
Their rotation is good with Pedro and Benson, maybe heilman if he repeats but crap after that. The bullpen is in shambles and not even Wagner can fix that mess.
Not a Met fan but Glavine, in terms of innings/effectiveness, was better than any non-Randy Johnson starter the Yankees had last year. If Seo and Heilman are for real I can see the Mets being decent.

Seamonk
11-27-05, 05:01 PM
You think the mets are better than the Yankees at this point?
Wow.

Just wait until you see David Wright's smiling face and the SNY logo on every bus...

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 05:04 PM
Just wait until you see David Wright's smiling face and the SNY logo on every bus...

Wright is good, no great but the mets as a team arent that great and besides our third baseman just one the AL MVP and hit 400 HR at the age of 29. I dont know why you think the Mets are going to be great or are even concerned about them if they were going to great,as they arent in our division.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 05:07 PM
Not a Met fan but Glavine, in terms of innings/effectiveness, was better than any non-Randy Johnson starter the Yankees had last year. If Seo and Heilman are for real I can see the Mets being decent.


A 3.53 era in the Nl East is like a 4.10 in the AL East. We are also talking about next year and I dont see Glavine being great. Dont get me wrong I dont think the Mets are going to lose 100 games and I think they will get the wild card, but to say they are better than the Yankees is a little silly if you ask me.

Sam18
11-27-05, 05:11 PM
Just wait until you see David Wright's smiling face and the SNY logo on every bus...

You still haven't answered my question. Are the mets better than the Yankees now?

Fabien Brandy
11-27-05, 05:15 PM
A 3.53 era in the Nl East is like a 4.10 in the AL East. We are also talking about next year and I dont see Glavine being great. Dont get me wrong I dont think the Mets are going to lose 100 games and I think they will get the wild card, but to say they are better than the Yankees is a little silly if you ask me.

But Glavine's ERA+ is adjusted for league and his was 118 compared to 117 for Randy Johnson (though RJ had about 15 more IP). The past two seasons Glavine has gone over 210 IP with ERA+ of 119 and 118.

Again, not a Met fan but calling Glavine, Seo and Zambrano 'crap' is a little harsh.

Seamonk
11-27-05, 05:19 PM
You still haven't answered my question. Are the mets better than the Yankees now?

Yes, they are.

Sam18
11-27-05, 05:28 PM
Yes, they are.

Ok, explain.

Seamonk
11-27-05, 05:32 PM
Ok, explain.

A good ballclub, a lot of money, and an aggressive GM who isn't afraid to make mistakes.

Sam18
11-27-05, 05:40 PM
A good ballclub, a lot of money, and an aggressive GM who isn't afraid to make mistakes.

A medicore team, alot of money, and a stupid GM who's fu*king up the team for the future.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 05:42 PM
A medicore team, alot of money, and a stupid GM who's fu*king up the team for the future.

They have Reyes. He is fast, thus, the Mets are automatically, like, the greatest team ever.

Sam18
11-27-05, 05:43 PM
They have Reyes. He is fast, thus, the Mets are automatically, like, the greatest team ever.

They also have Wright and his face is gonna be on the BUS!111!!!!1!1!!!

Seamonk
11-27-05, 05:45 PM
A medicore team, alot of money, and a stupid GM who's fu*king up the team for the future.

Change -ing to -ed and you just lassoed Brian Cashman...

Saxmania
11-27-05, 05:45 PM
Wright is good, no great but the mets as a team arent that great and besides our third baseman just one the AL MVP and hit 400 HR at the age of 29. I dont know why you think the Mets are going to be great or are even concerned about them if they were going to great,as they arent in our division.

In fairness, David Wright just hit .306/.388/.523 (27 HR and 102 RBI in a pitcher's park) at the age of 22. I'm not saying he's A-Rod or Pujols here, but he's clearly very, very good considering that was his first full year in the majors and he played a pretty fair third base into the bargain.

Not to quibble with your main point, but David Wright will be getting Jeter-esque attention in a few years' time if his career develops along its current path, and justifiably so.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Panamaniac42
11-27-05, 05:46 PM
The Mets already traded Cameron, so unless they're willing to go with Lastings Milledge as the full-time CFer . . .


Only if Lastings Milledge speaks Espanol. ( i kid, i kid)

Sam18
11-27-05, 05:52 PM
Change -ing to -ed and you just lassoed Brian Cashman...

The Yankees are a mdeicore team? They're fu*ked for the future? Seriously stop playing with the orange and blue can of spray paint.

MisterNovember
11-27-05, 05:54 PM
an aggressive GM who isn't afraid to make mistakes.

This is certainly true...I don't know of any other GM who would have made the mistake of giving those contracts to Beltran, Pedro and Benson. Oh yeah, he just traded for Carlos Delgado, who turned down MORE MONEY from the Mets because he didn't want to play for them. I'm sure that marriage is going to work out great....

I really don't understand why people think Minaya is such a genius. He's doing to the Mets what Isiah Thomas is doing to the Knicks.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 05:57 PM
In fairness, David Wright just hit .306/.388/.523 (27 HR and 102 RBI in a pitcher's park) at the age of 22. I'm not saying he's A-Rod or Pujols here, but he's clearly very, very good considering that was his first full year in the majors and he played a pretty fair third base into the bargain.

Not to quibble with your main point, but David Wright will be getting Jeter-esque attention in a few years' time if his career develops along its current path, and justifiably so.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

I agree and thats why i called him great

Saxmania
11-27-05, 05:58 PM
I agree and thats why i called him great

I apologize - I read 'no' as 'not' for a second there. My bad.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 06:00 PM
A good ballclub, a lot of money, and an aggressive GM who isn't afraid to make mistakes.

You are kidding me?

You are going to have to do more to say "good ballclub" to prove that the Mets are better than the Yankees

IM pissed off about something right now so im going to put my money where my mouth is, if the Mets finish with a better record than the Yankees(or win the World Series) I will leave this forum(and the internet) forever.

Seamonk
11-27-05, 06:03 PM
You are kidding me?

You are going to have to do more to say "good ballclub" to prove that the Mets are better than the Yankees

IM pissed off about something right now so im going to put my money where my mouth is, if the Mets finish with a better record than the Yankees(or win the World Series) I will leave this forum(and the internet) forever.

Why?

It's all in fun.

:)

Sam18
11-27-05, 06:05 PM
Why?

It's all in fun.

:)

You still haven't proved why the mets are the better team.

Seamonk
11-27-05, 06:09 PM
You still haven't proved why the mets are the better team.

I don't have to.

They will.

;)

Sam18
11-27-05, 06:15 PM
I don't have to.

They will.

;)

Why? Instead of being a fanboy why don't you show some facts to back up your ridiciulous claim.

I Love Wang
11-27-05, 06:15 PM
I don't have to.

They will.

;)

Good job.

keg411
11-27-05, 06:15 PM
I don't have to.

They will.

;)

Right now the Mets look like a strong team (at least offensively) on paper. But titles aren't won in the offseason. Let's see how the season turns out before annointing the Mets as the new "team of NY". Just because they're on the back pages now doesn't mean they're necessarily a good team.

I'm happy with the low key offseason. There have been too many times where the Yanks have overpaid for players that didn't turn out well -- why not hold on to prospects, cut payroll and see what happens in the future. The moves the Mets are making is exactly what got the Yankees in trouble in the first place.

YankeePride1967
11-27-05, 06:54 PM
This is amusing. We're better than you. Why? We just are!

Snatch Catch
11-27-05, 07:05 PM
This is amusing. We're better than you. Why? We just are!

:lol:

Fabien Brandy
11-27-05, 07:27 PM
I don't know of any other GM who would have made the mistake of giving those contracts to Beltran, Pedro and Benson. Oh yeah, he just traded for Carlos Delgado, who turned down MORE MONEY from the Mets because he didn't want to play for them. I'm sure that marriage is going to work out great....
Again, not a Met fan but are Yankee fans really in a position to criticize another team's contracts? Jeter is way overpaid, Giambi's contract is probably still the worst in the sport, Pavano is owed $30M, Jaret Wright's deal is comparable to Benson's and Randy Johnson gets more per year than Pedro who had a year that blew the Big Unit's away (plus the $9M the team gave the Dbacks for taking Javy Vazquez).

Cashman has the 'Crazy Steinbrenner' excuse but as a franchise the Yankees aren't really in a position to be casting stones.

Mark19
11-27-05, 08:02 PM
Again, not a Met fan but are Yankee fans really in a position to criticize another team's contracts? Jeter is way overpaid, Giambi's contract is probably still the worst in the sport, Pavano is owed $30M, Jaret Wright's deal is comparable to Benson's and Randy Johnson gets more per year than Pedro who had a year that blew the Big Unit's away (plus the $9M the team gave the Dbacks for taking Javy Vazquez).

Cashman has the 'Crazy Steinbrenner' excuse but as a franchise the Yankees aren't really in a position to be casting stones.

I think you need a history lesson. Giambi is overpaid but he is still a .270-30-100 guy. Jeter is overpaid but plays every game and is a top 3 shortstop. Pavano and Wright are overpaid but the contracts aren't crippling. If you want to talk about the worst contracts in baseball, do some research on Darren Dreifort, Chan Ho Park, Albert Belle and Bobby Higginson. Saying Giambi's contract is bad is like saying Manny's is bad. They are both owed a ton of money but they are big offensive producers.

Davios
11-27-05, 08:12 PM
Again, not a Met fan but are Yankee fans really in a position to criticize another team's contracts? Jeter is way overpaid, Giambi's contract is probably still the worst in the sport, Pavano is owed $30M, Jaret Wright's deal is comparable to Benson's and Randy Johnson gets more per year than Pedro who had a year that blew the Big Unit's away (plus the $9M the team gave the Dbacks for taking Javy Vazquez).

Cashman has the 'Crazy Steinbrenner' excuse but as a franchise the Yankees aren't really in a position to be casting stones.



You are aware that the Mets just traded for a player owed an exhoribidant amount of money and sent their top pitching prospect away in doing so. Meanwhile, this player had 100 more ABs then Giambi yet in every single statistic barring average essentially had the same production as Giambi. That is except for OBP in which Giambi had posted 40 points higher. Talk all you want about albatross contracts, we didn't deal our top pitching prospect to obtain ours.

38Special
11-27-05, 08:19 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to inform you that Jose Reyes is really fast and exciting

YankeePride1967
11-27-05, 08:40 PM
I think you need a history lesson. Giambi is overpaid but he is still a .270-30-100 guy. Jeter is overpaid but plays every game and is a top 3 shortstop. Pavano and Wright are overpaid but the contracts aren't crippling. If you want to talk about the worst contracts in baseball, do some research on Darren Dreifort, Chan Ho Park, Albert Belle and Bobby Higginson. Saying Giambi's contract is bad is like saying Manny's is bad. They are both owed a ton of money but they are big offensive producers.

Not to mention the fact that Jeter and Pavano's salary levels were dictated by other contracts. (A-Rod's for Jeter and Benson for Pavano).

YankeePride1967
11-27-05, 08:41 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to inform you that Jose Reyes is really fast and exciting

and he's clutch too.

Sam18
11-27-05, 08:43 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to inform you that Jose Reyes is really fast and exciting

Yeah but is his face on a bus?

Jace
11-27-05, 08:45 PM
Good golly. Everyone who is not a Met fan needs to forget about Carlos Beltran COMPLETELY until the next interleague series.

We didn't want him for the $14 mil + luxury tax that he costs as a free agent last year, why would we want him now for that same cost after an injury-filled year with low production when he will also cost some of our good players and prospects in a trade?

Panamaniac42
11-27-05, 11:10 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to inform you that Jose Reyes is really fast and exciting

He's like Joey Gathright except a shortstop.

Steve J. Rogers
11-27-05, 11:18 PM
Well, I agree with you, but why did they get Xavier Nady? And wasn't there some talk (or speculation) that Omar was interested in Soriano possibly as a center fielder, because he had Matsui at 2B?

We got him under the assumption that he could be used as a chip in getting someone like Manny to Shea. Possibly with the DRays involved

Most likely this is akin to, as I paraphrase Sonny Corleone, walking out of a stall with a **** in hand rather than a gun!

Fabien Brandy
11-28-05, 08:30 AM
I think you need a history lesson. Giambi is overpaid but he is still a .270-30-100 guy. Jeter is overpaid but plays every game and is a top 3 shortstop. Pavano and Wright are overpaid but the contracts aren't crippling. If you want to talk about the worst contracts in baseball, do some research on Darren Dreifort, Chan Ho Park, Albert Belle and Bobby Higginson. Saying Giambi's contract is bad is like saying Manny's is bad. They are both owed a ton of money but they are big offensive producers.
As to Dreifort and the rest, I was referring to Giambi's contract being the worst currently in effect in the sport, i.e. the last player who would be taken on waivers by any team. Delgado has 3 years left on a 4 year deal that averaged $13M per season. Giambi over the next 3 years will be paid $19M, $21.5M, $21M and then a $5M buyout. Would you rather keep Petit or spend an extra $25M over the next 3 years? And Delgado had a better OPS+ than Giambi and played every day, making him more valuable in both respects. (Even Manny Ramirez is 'only' owed $19M, $18M and $20M over the next 3, with no $5 buyout.)

Jeter, while a nice player, is signed through 2010 at an average of $21M a year. Would any team even consider assuming the remainder of Jeter's contract if they could? (To say that ARod set the bar for Jeter's contract assumes that there was never a chance to get him locked up the way Boston did with Nomar. The Yankees gambled even with failing to use the Juan Gonzalez offer as a bar and thus have nobody to blame but themselves.)

I'm a Yankee fan but to criticize another GM for overpaying is a little hypocritical.

Mark19
11-28-05, 08:43 AM
As to Dreifort and the rest, I was referring to Giambi's contract being the worst currently in effect in the sport, i.e. the last player who would be taken on waivers by any team. Delgado has 3 years left on a 4 year deal that averaged $13M per season. Giambi over the next 3 years will be paid $19M, $21.5M, $21M and then a $5M buyout. Would you rather keep Petit or spend an extra $25M over the next 3 years? And Delgado had a better OPS+ than Giambi and played every day, making him more valuable in both respects. (Even Manny Ramirez is 'only' owed $19M, $18M and $20M over the next 3, with no $5 buyout.)

Jeter, while a nice player, is signed through 2010 at an average of $21M a year. Would any team even consider assuming the remainder of Jeter's contract if they could? (To say that ARod set the bar for Jeter's contract assumes that there was never a chance to get him locked up the way Boston did with Nomar. The Yankees gambled even with failing to use the Juan Gonzalez offer as a bar and thus have nobody to blame but themselves.)

I'm a Yankee fan but to criticize another GM for overpaying is a little hypocritical.

The Reds owe Griffey $80 million through 2024 and he has averaged 98 games over the past 6 seasons. When he is 55 they are going to be paying him more than we pay Matsui -- now that is what I call a bad contract.

Fabien Brandy
11-28-05, 09:10 AM
The Reds owe Griffey $80 million through 2024 and he has averaged 98 games over the past 6 seasons. When he is 55 they are going to be paying him more than we pay Matsui -- now that is what I call a bad contract.
Griffey's situation is unique in that the total value of his contract is only $12.5 a season with half of it via deferred payments that make the present day value of his overall deal at under $10M a season. I guess a team wouldn't claim him if they would be on the hook for deferred payments after the contract ($16.5M due in 2024) but since the deferred money represents half of payment for seasons already played I think a lawyer would have to review the contract to figure all that out.

I'd take Griffey if they only had to pay him what he'll get through the remainder of his playing years (4 years, $6M per year).

NYYRocket
11-28-05, 09:29 AM
Can we finally put the Beltran as a Yank to rest already

swityak11
11-28-05, 12:47 PM
Talk all you want about albatross contracts, we didn't deal our top pitching prospect to obtain ours.No. We trade ours to get Aaron Boone.

I Love Wang
11-28-05, 02:00 PM
No. We trade ours to get Aaron Boone.

That hurt.

surge511
11-28-05, 02:22 PM
No. We trade ours to get Aaron Boone.

If that is what you want to call our top pitching prospect... Great season Claussen had this year... :lol:

And please, people, Beltran is not going anywhere, and I certainly don't want him near the Yankees. His contract is the last thing we need on this team. He is not necessary or wanted for this team, and even if he was, he would not be coming here anyway. So please stop talking about him.

I Love Wang
11-28-05, 02:33 PM
If that is what you want to call our top pitching prospect... Great season Claussen had this year... :lol:

Claussen, at age 26, threw 167 innings with an ERA+ of 105. He had a pretty good year. And he was definitely our best pitching prospect in 2003, when we moved him for an average third baseman.

whalers
11-28-05, 02:47 PM
Claussen, at age 26, threw 167 innings with an ERA+ of 105. He had a pretty good year. And he was definitely our best pitching prospect in 2003, when we moved him for an average third baseman.

In 2003 the Yankees system was as barren as ever so I dont think there was much to deal. In anty event Boone gave us that great moment in 2004 and eventually Arod. I's say giving up Claussen was worth it.

yankswn23
11-28-05, 02:50 PM
Not to mention the fact that Jeter and Pavano's salary levels were dictated by other contracts. (A-Rod's for Jeter and Benson for Pavano).
i think Jeter is the #1 shortstop in the league, tejada has better offensive, but according to the last two years Jeter is better defensively and a better leader, who is # 3?

I Love Wang
11-28-05, 02:57 PM
i think Jeter is the #1 shortstop in the league, tejada has better offensive, but according to the last two years Jeter is better defensively and a better leader, who is # 3?

If Jeter is better than Tejada, its because his OBP was 40 points higher. Not because of defense or leadership.

swityak11
11-28-05, 03:14 PM
i think Jeter is the #1 shortstop in the league, tejada has better offensive, but according to the last two years Jeter is better defensively and a better leader, who is # 3?I'd imagine Michael Young.

In any case, I'm still bitter about the Claussen trade. Even with the ALCS homerun, Boone was terrible for us. Claussen will be a solid cheap middle of the rotation guy for the forseeable future.

whalers
11-28-05, 03:44 PM
I'd imagine Michael Young.

In any case, I'm still bitter about the Claussen trade. Even with the ALCS homerun, Boone was terrible for us. Claussen will be a solid cheap middle of the rotation guy for the forseeable future.

How can you be bitter about the Claussen trade? I could understand if the Yankees were still trotting Boone out there on an everyday basis but if that trade doestn happen the Yankees dont get Arod. I would think Arod would be enough to ease the bitterness. To be bitter because the Yankees let go of a back of the end rotation pitcher is beyond silly.

Claussen was 10-11 this season and had an ERA over 4. Those numbers would be inflated even more if he was in the AL. Get over it.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 03:46 PM
So basically it was Claussen, Soriano and cash for A-rod? I dont see how we lost by giving up a mediocre pitcher and an overrated secondbaseman for the American League MVP.

I Love Wang
11-28-05, 03:48 PM
How can you be bitter about the Claussen trade? I could understand if the Yankees were still trotting Boone out there on an everyday basis but if that trade doestn happen the Yankees dont get Arod. I would think Arod would be enough to ease the bitterness. To be bitter because the Yankees let go of a back of the end rotation pitcher is beyond silly.

Claussen was 10-11 this season and had an ERA over 4. Those numbers would be inflated even more if he was in the AL. Get over it.

Trading Claussen did not provide us with A-Rod. Boone getting injured only reopened the hole at third base.

Claussen was in a pretty severe hitters' park last year, and his numbers were better than league average in 170ish ip. Thats good.

AMYanks
11-28-05, 03:49 PM
Claussen was 10-11 this season and had an ERA over 4. Those numbers would be inflated even more if he was in the AL. Get over it.

His numbers were inflated because of the Reds home ballpark. He had a 3.48 ERA on the road.

swityak11
11-28-05, 04:09 PM
Claussen was 10-11 this season and had an ERA over 4. Those numbers would be inflated even more if he was in the AL. Get over it.Since when do records say anything about how well someone pitches? As was pointed out, his road ERA was 3.48 and he plays in a bandbox. He's a quality pitcher and we gave him up for trash. Yeah, we eventually washed away the mistake with ARod. But the fact remains that we'd gave up a pitcher who had a better ERA+ than Mussina, Pavano, and Wright at 1/20th the cost for basically nothing..

At any point, my post was directed at the person who was making fun of the Mets for giving up their best pitching prospect for Delgado. As if the Yankees never give up their best pitching prospects for a whole lot less.

YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 06:01 PM
i think Jeter is the #1 shortstop in the league, tejada has better offensive, but according to the last two years Jeter is better defensively and a better leader, who is # 3?

Even if that were true now, it wasn't true when he signed his deal. The best SS then was the Yanks current 3B.