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View Full Version : Do Teams simply do not want to deal with Yanks?



destro
11-22-05, 08:50 AM
More and more it appears that teams are making unrealisitc requests (Wanting both Wang and Cano) even though it's been written time and time again that those are just not available options.

Are teams just not interested in dealing with the Yankees?

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-22-05, 08:59 AM
More and more it appears that teams are making unrealisitc requests (Wanting both Wang and Cano) even though it's been written time and time again that those are just not available options.

Are teams just not interested in dealing with the Yankees?

I do believe there is a Yankee Tax. But let's face facts. The Yankees have only 3 real trade chips on their major league roster right now. Cano, Wang, and Chacon. That's it. And otherwise it's Duncan and Hughes. The rest are problems to trade either because they won't (Jeter, A-Rod, Matsui, Rivera, etc.), their salaries are too big (Giambi, Sheffield, Posada, Mussina), etc.

And the Yankees glut of minor league talent isn't at the AAA stage, it's at the lower levels, where they are stacked (though, shhhh...don't tell Gammons, he'd like to keep trashing them). It is what it is, this might be the offseason that the Yankees just take their lumps and keep letting the farm develop.

gold23
11-22-05, 09:06 AM
I believe the Yanks are simply limited in what other teams want. The extreme talent the Yanks possess is either too expensive for other clubs, or the Yanks rightfully don't want to move those guys.

So, what they have left is two players at the major league level in Cano and Wang who are young, talented, and cheap. They have NO premium prospects. None. Someone like Hughes is extremely promising, but he's not even in the top dozen or so pitching prospects in the game. Probably even lower than that. He's a very good prospect, but a half season of success in the low minors (and one cut short by injury) is not going to spur another team to give up premium talent. He will be requested to be included, but he won't be the centerpiece.

Outside of Hughes, you have Duncan, who holds value. But again, he's not really a "premium" prospect- a very good one, but not elite. The Yanks are doing much better with talent in the lower levels, but they are extremely poor in the upper part of the system. Now, they produced two gems last year- so it's not that bad. But when discussing trades, other clubs have a lot more chips.

Quite frankly, I don't think there are many GM's left that ask for more from the Yanks. 10 years ago? Yes. Maybe even 5. But nowadays, it's become streamlined enough that almost everyone will make a deal if it helps their own club.

CaptainThurman
11-22-05, 09:08 AM
Would you want to send quality players to a team that just sloppily spends obscene amounts of money in a gluttonous manner? Why make the Yankees better when you can make their opponents better? It's the American way, competition and level playing fields and all that.

If the Yankees spent their money better, they wouldn't need the younger stars of other teams that can't afford them anymore. The Yankees should be growing their own crop of superstars.

YankClipper5
11-22-05, 09:11 AM
Part of it is the Yankees history of lopsided deals to get the player they want right now but also Wang and Cano, whether we want to admit it or not, are the closest to premium trading chips we have.

Yankyfan
11-22-05, 09:16 AM
I like it because it forces us to go with our internal players.I would love Beckett but he does have a blister problem and he has had Tude issues in the past.NY doesn't sound like a good fit where as you know it hasn't been a problem with Cano or Wang.

BJG
11-22-05, 09:26 AM
There is no Yankee tax. There just aren't Yankee players to trade after Cano and Wang. Every deal starts off with Team A asking for Team B's Cano and Wang. Team B always says no. The issue becomes, does Team B have something else that Team A wants? The Red Sox were able to trade for Beckett because they had a player after Lester that the Marlins still wanted in Sanchez. The Yankees currently don't have that...they don't have a guy in the upper minors or pre-arbitration who is comparable to Cano to substitute for him. Years of questionably conservative drafts (all run out of Tampa, btw) have put the Yankees in this situation.

BRNXBMRS
11-22-05, 09:29 AM
There was a rumor that the WhiteSox might trade Rowand to Florida for Pierre. If that happens hopefuuly the yanks can work out a deal for him.

swityak11
11-22-05, 09:31 AM
Wanting Cano and Wang isn't being unreasonable when you're trading a young stud like Beckett. They're the only two ML ready, cheap trading chips the Yanks have.

I don't see it as a reluctance to trade with the Yanks.

gold23
11-22-05, 09:32 AM
There was a rumor that the WhiteSox might trade Rowand to Florida for Pierre. If that happens hopefuuly the yanks can work out a deal for him.


That would laughably be a terrible deal for the Chisox. Don't see how that rumor could get started- if the Chisox deal Rowand it is because they believe they have his replacement. Rowand is better than Pierre in just about everything. Heck, he's probably even more valuable on the bases than Pierre.

PerfectCone
11-22-05, 09:36 AM
I hope Juan Pierre has a huge year next season and proves all of the "experts" on these boards wrong.

THEBOSS84
11-22-05, 09:42 AM
This morning sucks.
Boston gets Beckett, and here we are talking about getting Rowand...Aaron Rowand for gods sake.
Wow nice counter move, we are screwed for the next 8 yrs now.

nyg02005
11-22-05, 09:43 AM
The F.O. should be creative this offseason to solve the CF and bullpen problems. The F.A. market is not full of players in the areas of the yankees needs but has a lot of players in other areas.

gold23
11-22-05, 09:46 AM
I hope Juan Pierre has a huge year next season and proves all of the "experts" on these boards wrong.


By "huge year", what does that mean? I don't think Pierre is a bad player, but I do think he is overrated. He's a decent defender- not great. For some reason, he's not as good now as he was a few years back. Same with his base-stealing. He had a season two years ago where he was atrocious on the bases- he stole over 40 but got caught over 20. He hurt them significantly there. Last year he was better- but only about to the point where he broke even or slightly helped with the percentage of times he was caught.

He doesn't have any power, and doesn't walk a heck of a lot. So he needs to hit .310 or higher to be helpful at the top of a lineup.

He's a nice player- and a world better than anyone the Yanks currently have. But not someone to give up a ton of talent for....

Kluivert4Ever
11-22-05, 09:47 AM
Wanting Cano and Wang isn't being unreasonable when you're trading a young stud like Beckett. They're the only two ML ready, cheap trading chips the Yanks have.

I don't see it as a reluctance to trade with the Yanks.



Pierre is anything but a young stud.

BJG
11-22-05, 09:47 AM
This morning sucks.
Boston gets Beckett, and here we are talking about getting Rowand...Aaron Rowand for gods sake.
Wow nice counter move, we are screwed for the next 8 yrs now.

Speaking in terms of relative value to the team, the difference between Rowand and what the Yankees did last year in CF is bigger than the difference between Beckett and David Wells (the likely odd man out once he is traded to SD).

indianyanksfan
11-22-05, 09:49 AM
why not give furcal the cf job?

i mean if there's no other option?

gold23
11-22-05, 09:51 AM
This morning sucks.
Boston gets Beckett, and here we are talking about getting Rowand...Aaron Rowand for gods sake.
Wow nice counter move, we are screwed for the next 8 yrs now.


The great thing about the way Cashman and co. seem to be operating these days is that they no longer feel the need to "counter". There's no sense in topping the Sox if it is not the right move. And if it is the right move, it is made regardless of what the Sox are doing.

Aaron Rowand to the Yanks possibly helps the Yankees as much or more as Beckett helps the Red Sox.

THEBOSS84
11-22-05, 09:52 AM
A few years ago when the Sox got Schill, we countered that move by aquiring A-Rod(well I guess we more or less needed a 3b)
Now they get another pitching stud, so I will stand here and guarantee that we end up trading for a MAJOR hitter this offseason, to try and counter their excellent pitching move with a lineup move of our own.

Kluivert4Ever
11-22-05, 09:52 AM
Aaron Rowand to the Yanks possibly helps the Yankees as much or more as Beckett helps the Red Sox.



I love Beckett but I agree, what credebility does the Rowand rumours got?

Mark19
11-22-05, 09:56 AM
One thing needs to be understood:

If the Yanks aren't willing to deal players of value (i.e. Cano, Wang, Chacon, Hughes, Duncan & co) then no one is going to dump talented players on their lap.

This means that our offseason hopes need to rely on either the signing of expensive free agents or the mixed use of cheap FAs and our small pool of minor league talent (Matt Smith, Andy Philips. Kevin Thompson...etc).


There is no anti-Yankees bias if we can offer a good deal. The truth is that Boston gave up half of their top 4 prospects to make a risky trade. If the Yankees want to make a similar splash we will need to bite the bullett as welll.



Note: Just for the record, Sheffield, Pavano, Posada, Wright, Womack...etc are, for various reasons, not particularly attractive trade chips -- it is not realistic to expect to get the world (or anything) in exchange for some of these guys.

jnewmark
11-22-05, 09:56 AM
Realisticaly, how can anyone deny that every other team in MLB does'nt have the gigantic payroll of the Yankees in the back of their mind? They are going to ask for the best the Yanks have to offer as standard procedure, yet, they also know that the Yanks will spend whatever to replace those players. And, I also think that there is just a little bit of, " Let's hold the Yanks over a barrel" attitude. That 200 mil war chest is always looming in the minds of other teams in any deal, imho.

whalers
11-22-05, 10:00 AM
He's a nice player- and a world better than anyone the Yanks currently have. But not someone to give up a ton of talent for....

I think this is what some fans forget to realize. Look at the pending trade btwn the Sox and Fish. The Sox are getting a good young pitcher but they are giving up one top prospect and two other good ones. The sox also have to pick up Lowell's contract as well. Sure the Sox get what they need in Beckett but they lose three good youngsters and gain an inflated contract with lowell. My point being that if the Yankees tried to trade for Pierre they would end up paying over market value.

THEBOSS84
11-22-05, 10:02 AM
I think this is what some fans forget to realize. Look at the pending trade btwn the Sox and Fish. The Sox are getting a good young pitcher but they are giving up one top prospect and two other good ones. The sox also have to pick up Lowell's contract as well. Sure the Sox get what they need in Beckett but they lose three good youngsters and gain an inflated contract with lowell. My point being that if the Yankees tried to trade for Pierre they would end up paying over market value.

The part that bothers me about the Beckett deal, is the fact that the Sox didnt even have to give up their top pitching prospect Lester.
That just sucks man.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-22-05, 10:03 AM
A few years ago when the Sox got Schill, we countered that move by aquiring A-Rod(well I guess we more or less needed a 3b)
Now they get another pitching stud, so I will stand here and guarantee that we end up trading for a MAJOR hitter this offseason, to try and counter their excellent pitching move with a lineup move of our own.

They actually countered by signing Sheffield. A-Rod showed up in February, but the point is well taken, the Yankees will most likely respond to this by upping their offense.

CTyankeefan
11-22-05, 10:05 AM
There is no Yankee tax. There just aren't Yankee players to trade after Cano and Wang. Every deal starts off with Team A asking for Team B's Cano and Wang. Team B always says no. The issue becomes, does Team B have something else that Team A wants? The Red Sox were able to trade for Beckett because they had a player after Lester that the Marlins still wanted in Sanchez. The Yankees currently don't have that...they don't have a guy in the upper minors or pre-arbitration who is comparable to Cano to substitute for him. Years of questionably conservative drafts (all run out of Tampa, btw) have put the Yankees in this situation.

The things is, if you trade with the Yankess you have to get something from them on the major league level.

Cano and wang are young players, and to a GM of another team, any trade that doesn't include those guys makes you look like a fool. The red Sox best young players are not major leaguers.

The days of Yankees getting talent without losing a major league player are over. I think ther eis a yankee task. For Curt Schilling, Arizona wanted Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano. The DBacks got Casey Fossum instead. I don't know about you, but that is as lopsided a trade as I have ever seen.

It even took us Javier Vazquez, Brad Halsey and our top catching prospect to get RJ.

They could have had Cano too, guess we their scouts aren't very good either.

BJG
11-22-05, 10:09 AM
The things is, if you trade with the Yankess you have to get something from them on the major league level.

Cano and wang are young players, and to a GM of another team, any trade that doesn't include those guys makes you look like a fool. The red Sox best young players are not major leaguers.

The days of Yankees getting talent without losing a major league player are over. I think ther eis a yankee task. For Curt Schilling, Arizona wanted Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano. The DBacks got Casey Fossum instead. I don't know about you, but that is as lopsided a trade as I have ever seen.

It even took us Javier Vazquez, Brad Halsey and our top catching prospect to get RJ.

They could have had Cano too, guess we their scouts aren't very good either.

It's not that the Yankees best young players are in the majors, it's that there isn't anything comparable in the upper minors. If the Yankees had a Sanchez to their Cano (whether he was in the majors or AA), they probably could have made a deal here. They don't.

gold23
11-22-05, 10:12 AM
The part that bothers me about the Beckett deal, is the fact that the Sox didnt even have to give up their top pitching prospect Lester.
That just sucks man.


Scouting and solid drafts. They gave up two premium prospects. As someone else noted in another thread, the Yanks don't possess those "fallback" options. If the Yanks say not to Duncan or Hughes, there is nobody that excites other teams. The Sox said yes to one of their best position prospects (and the closest to being ready) in Ramirez, and were able to offer a very good prospect in Sanchez after they said no to Lester.

Saxmania
11-22-05, 10:21 AM
I hope Juan Pierre has a huge year next season and proves all of the "experts" on these boards wrong.

A while ago people were saying how they hoped he'd have a huge 2005 next season and prove all of the 'experts' on these boards wrong. He's just not all that good.

In the end, though, we went out and got Tony Womack, which might well be Pierre's future.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

swityak11
11-22-05, 10:23 AM
Pierre is anything but a young stud.I never mentioned Pierre.

"a young stud like Beckett"

AJW
11-22-05, 11:12 AM
The part that bothers me about the Beckett deal, is the fact that the Sox didnt even have to give up their top pitching prospect Lester.
That just sucks man.

I agree. Shaking my head in disgust.

Sam18
11-22-05, 11:17 AM
I can't believe people are upset about the sox getting Beckett and Lowell. We should be celebrating.

Sam18
11-22-05, 11:18 AM
This morning sucks.
Boston gets Beckett, and here we are talking about getting Rowand...Aaron Rowand for gods sake.
Wow nice counter move, we are screwed for the next 8 yrs now.

:roflmao: :roflmao:

Good one. You do know that Beckett isn't that good right? He's injury prone on top of that.

THEBOSS84
11-22-05, 11:21 AM
:roflmao: :roflmao:

Good one. You do know that Beckett isn't that good right? He's injury prone on top of that.

You keep saying that Beckett isn't that good. Can you name 10 pitchers in the league (age being a factor) that you would rather have then Beckett?

Kluivert4Ever
11-22-05, 11:21 AM
I never mentioned Pierre.

"a young stud like Beckett"


Wang and Cano was/is the price foe Pierre.

knickfan23
11-22-05, 11:21 AM
A few years ago when the Sox got Schill, we countered that move by aquiring A-Rod(well I guess we more or less needed a 3b)
Now they get another pitching stud, so I will stand here and guarantee that we end up trading for a MAJOR hitter this offseason, to try and counter their excellent pitching move with a lineup move of our own.


Actually, they acquired Vazquez and Kevin Brown. I believe those deals happened (the Vazquez one) within 7 days of the Sox getting Schilling.

gold23
11-22-05, 11:23 AM
I can't believe people are upset about the sox getting Beckett and Lowell. We should be celebrating.


I don't know that we shoud be celebrating. From a pure on the field standpoint, they should be better. And they have potential to be a LOT better if Beckett leaps. However......

If this trade forces the Red Sox to react to their increased payroll by shedding important major league talent- or not re-signing a cog in their lineup like Damon (who, even though it would be foolish to sign him long-term is still a pretty good offensive player)- I could see it being a bonus.

If the Sox now deal Ramirez, they will lack some of the upper-level minor league talent to get a replacement.

The Sox essentially hitched their horse to the Beckett wagon. I don't blame them based on his talent, but if they are wrong it is a disastrous move. If they are right? They landed an ace for a decade.

StatenIslandYankee
11-22-05, 11:28 AM
I can't believe people are upset about the sox getting Beckett and Lowell. We should be celebrating.
WHY? Beckett gives me nightmares and flashbacks of 2003.

BJG
11-22-05, 11:31 AM
You keep saying that Beckett isn't that good. Can you name 10 pitchers in the league (age being a factor) that you would rather have then Beckett?

Santana
Peavy
Willis
Oswalt
Lackey
Patterson
Buehrle
Webb
Zambrano
Harden

Do you want me to keep going?

whalers
11-22-05, 11:33 AM
You keep saying that Beckett isn't that good. Can you name 10 pitchers in the league (age being a factor) that you would rather have then Beckett?

In 2005 he was 15-8 with 3.37 ERA, over his carrer he is 41-34 3.46 ERA. He also possesses a whole lot of potential. Prior to this year he was a .500 pitcher with flashes of brilliance so I can understand why some people arent sold on him. Also it will be interesting to see what happens to his ERA when he comes to the AL. My guess is that he will have around the same record with a little higher ERA which is OK but not great.

nyg02005
11-22-05, 11:36 AM
Santana
Peavy
Willis
Oswalt
Lackey
Patterson
Buehrle
Webb
Zambrano
Harden

Do you want me to keep going?

I would remove lackey, patterson, webb and even willis. But i would add prior, schmidt.

NewEraYanks2527
11-22-05, 11:38 AM
I would remove lackey, patterson, webb and even willis. But i would add prior, schmidt. No way you remove Willis, the kid is a horse and a tough one at that.

gold23
11-22-05, 11:41 AM
Santana
Peavy
Willis
Oswalt
Lackey
Patterson
Buehrle
Webb
Zambrano
Harden

Do you want me to keep going?


You'd rather have Victor Zambrano? :)

Prior needs to be on that list too, injury and all. He's a guy who, if healthy, is pretty much going to be an ace.

Carpenter at 31 is close- I'd probably choose him if I was a contender. Felix Hernandez, even with his age, is a definite. His upside is simply off the charts and he looks ready.

There are certainly a bunch of pitchers out there that would be more desirable than Beckett- no question. Most of these guys, however, are not available.

Josh Beckett, out of pitcher who were either available via free agency or trade, was at or near the top of the list.

Sam18
11-22-05, 11:41 AM
You keep saying that Beckett isn't that good. Can you name 10 pitchers in the league (age being a factor) that you would rather have then Beckett?

Santana
Sheets
King Felix
Prior
Peavy
Willis
Oswalt
Halladay
Chacin
Harden

Just the ones I could think of from the top of my head.

Sam18
11-22-05, 11:43 AM
WHY? Beckett gives me nightmares and flashbacks of 2003.

Is that why you're scared? Dude look at this objectively and not in as a scared fan.

ppa79
11-22-05, 11:45 AM
Santana
Sheets
King Felix
Prior
Peavy
Willis
Oswalt
Halladay
Chacin
Harden

Just the ones I could think of from the top of my head.

I haven't seen too much of Chacin, but I would take the rest any day over Beckett.

gold23
11-22-05, 11:46 AM
I would remove lackey, patterson, webb and even willis. But i would add prior, schmidt.


I wouldn't. Lackey has really developed. He's the Angel's best pitcher, and he's very good. He had a little command issue for a bit, but he's made the jump.

Patterson and Webb? Probably prefer Beckett for the upside, but a solid case can be made that they are currently better pitchers. Not Willis- he's clearly a better pitcher than Beckett right now.

gold23
11-22-05, 11:47 AM
I haven't see too much of Chacin, but I would take the rest any day over Beckett.


Halladay and Sheets I forgot too. Not Chacin- I believe he's a smoke and mirrors pitcher- the more he is seen, the less effective he will be. He has decent stuff and a funky delivery. Not a big fan.

YankeeFan1
11-22-05, 11:49 AM
Teams want to screw the Yankees over, period.

BJG
11-22-05, 11:50 AM
I wouldn't. Lackey has really developed. He's the Angel's best pitcher, and he's very good. He had a little command issue for a bit, but he's made the jump.

Patterson and Webb? Probably prefer Beckett for the upside, but a solid case can be made that they are currently better pitchers. Not Willis- he's clearly a better pitcher than Beckett right now.

I'd say Patterson and Webb are comparable, but they are also likely to pitch a lot more. That has substantial value.

JeffWeaverFan
11-22-05, 11:50 AM
Santana
Sheets
King Felix
Prior
Peavy
Willis
Oswalt
Halladay
Chacin
Harden

Just the ones I could think of from the top of my head.
Remove Chacin and we're talking.

Fact: Yankees adding Aaron Rowand helps our pitching staff more than the Red Sox adding Beckett.

Sam18
11-22-05, 11:51 AM
Teams want to screw the Yankees over, period.

Its not that, they know that the Yankees are known for making dumb moves.

Sam18
11-22-05, 11:52 AM
Remove Chacin and we're talking.

Fact: Yankees adding Aaron Rowand helps our pitching staff more than the Red Sox adding Beckett.

BJG mentioned some I didn't. You're right, Rowand improves us more than Beckett improves the sox. Although I don't see how we're getting Rowand.

ppa79
11-22-05, 11:52 AM
Remove Chacin and we're talking.

Fact: Yankees adding Aaron Rowand helps our pitching staff more than the Red Sox adding Beckett.

Remove Chacin and add Carlos Zambrano. I never realized how good his stats are. WOW
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4499

BRNXBMRS
11-22-05, 11:54 AM
It even took us Javier Vazquez, Brad Halsey and our top catching prospect to get RJ.

The Yankees were begging the Diamond backs to take Cano & Wang during the previous' year trading deadline for Randy.

Sam18
11-22-05, 11:54 AM
Remove Chacin and add Carlos Zambrano. I never realized how good his stats are. WOW
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4499 ("http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4499")

Oops, I had Zambrano on the list and must've deleted him.

Sam18
11-22-05, 11:55 AM
The Yankees were begging the Diamond backs to take Cano & Wang during the previous' year trading deadline for Randy.

The Tampa Yankees you mean.

ppa79
11-22-05, 11:56 AM
Oops, I had Zambrano on the list and must've deleted him.

Talk about overshadowing by Prior and Wood. I always thought Zambrano was a decent pitcher but when looking at his stats he's everything that Beckett was suppose to be.

knickfan23
11-22-05, 12:00 PM
Santana
Peavy
Willis
Oswalt
Lackey
Patterson
Buehrle
Webb
Zambrano
Harden

Do you want me to keep going?

I think about it like this:

There is no pitcher available in free agency that is as good as Beckett after the 03, 04 and 05 seasons. There will not be a pitcher as good as him after next season either. And assuming Oswalt resigns with Houston for 2007, he wont be available. There is NO pitcher available at his age (25), with the postseason success (2-2 and a 2.11 ERA), a power pitcher, with the stuff he has that you can snatch without trading for it.

Take a while to think about it, and I'm sure you wont be able to find the guy. I propose to you that there are not 5 pitchers in the league 26 and under who are better than him.

Ben Sheets isnt available. Prior cant be had. Jeremy Bonderman wont be let go.

For the Yanks, its a high risk, high reward trade. For the Red Sox, they felt that they could take that chance.

YankeeFan1
11-22-05, 12:05 PM
Its not that, they know that the Yankees are known for making dumb moves. There is that as well.

gold23
11-22-05, 12:24 PM
Yeah. Bonderman is another name. Maybe about even with Beckett in my mind.

JapanJobbers
11-22-05, 12:32 PM
Beckett's not in the top 10, but as others have said, almost of the guys who would be in the top 10 are untouchables and won't be leaving their teams anytime soon.

Jace
11-22-05, 12:38 PM
There may be 15 MLB pitchers currently better than Josh Beckett, but the amount of times that 25 yr old pitchers with great stuff and some great success already (and other than that still some good numbers) become available through anything other than in-house minor league development is very small.

I would say one of the most similar situations to this happened with a 25 yr old Montreal pitcher named Pedro Martinez being traded to the Red Sox before the 1998 season. Granted, Pedro had an INSANE pre-trade season (Beckett just had a good one) and never had Beckett's injury problems, but other than that there are a lot of similarities between these 2 situations (both pitchers are young and have greaaaat stuff and were acquired for only prospects).

I am not saying that Beckett will ever be even a shadow of Pedro Martinez. But the potential for huge immediate success from this trade makes it a very good one for the Red Sox in my opinion.

Yes, the Yankees could improve even more by adding Aaron Rowand (unless Beckett suddenly does come together all at once into super ace caliber), but A) the Red Sox still got a good amount better B) the Yankees don't have Aaron Rowand yet and C) the players it takes to acquire Rowand could be costly to the Yanks in other ways.

BJG
11-22-05, 12:40 PM
I think about it like this:

There is no pitcher available in free agency that is as good as Beckett after the 03, 04 and 05 seasons. There will not be a pitcher as good as him after next season either. And assuming Oswalt resigns with Houston for 2007, he wont be available. There is NO pitcher available at his age (25), with the postseason success (2-2 and a 2.11 ERA), a power pitcher, with the stuff he has that you can snatch without trading for it.

That wasn't the question. The question was, name 10 pitchers in his age group that are better than Beckett. We found more than 10


Take a while to think about it, and I'm sure you wont be able to find the guy. I propose to you that there are not 5 pitchers in the league 26 and under who are better than him.

OK, so make it even more arbitrary and make 25 the cutoff: Peavy, Felix, Harden, Duke, Willis, Zambrano, Prior, and so on


Ben Sheets isnt available. Prior cant be had. Jeremy Bonderman wont be let go.

Beckett wasn't available until this week either.


For the Yanks, its a high risk, high reward trade. For the Red Sox, they felt that they could take that chance.

Because the Red Sox still have Delcarmen, Paplepon, and Lester. They still have Pedroida. Heck, they even still have Youkilis. Their depth has inherently lowered the organizational risk. If the Yankees make the same trade, it better be for someone who is of a lesser risk...someone they can reasonably be expected to pitch more than 170 innings...because if it doesn't work out, they don't have the fallbacks that the Sox have.

harkode2002
11-22-05, 12:54 PM
If other ML teams wish to slight us when talks of trades come up, we should sign a few free agents that fill our immediate needs and fill up in the draft.

If we can shave 20 mil off the payroll, I would invest it by drafting high ceiling high school kids (in later rounds) that say they're going to college and offer then serious $$$ to sign. By offering $4 mil to some of these kids, we could potentially garner up 5 additional high quality draft picks on an annual basis and woila - in about 3 - 4 years, we would have an endless supply of cheap kids ready to help out.

JfromJersey
11-22-05, 12:55 PM
The Yankees don't have many viable trading chips. The ones they do have (Wang, Cano, Hughes, Duncan) should be kept. It looks like this will be a bite the bullet year. There won't be any spectacular response to the Red Sox. There is no need to push a panic button. Teams will trade with the Yankees when it makes sense for them to do it, like the RJ deal last year.

ojo
11-22-05, 12:55 PM
There may be 15 MLB pitchers currently better than Josh Beckett, but the amount of times that 25 yr old pitchers with great stuff and some great success already (and other than that still some good numbers) become available through anything other than in-house minor league development is very small.

I would say one of the most similar situations to this happened with a 25 yr old Montreal pitcher named Pedro Martinez being traded to the Red Sox before the 1998 season. Granted, Pedro had an INSANE pre-trade season (Beckett just had a good one) and never had Beckett's injury problems, but other than that there are a lot of similarities between these 2 situations (both pitchers are young and have greaaaat stuff and were acquired for only prospects).

I am not saying that Beckett will ever be even a shadow of Pedro Martinez. But the potential for huge immediate success from this trade makes it a very good one for the Red Sox in my opinion.

Yes, the Yankees could improve even more by adding Aaron Rowand (unless Beckett suddenly does come together all at once into super ace caliber), but A) the Red Sox still got a good amount better B) the Yankees don't have Aaron Rowand yet and C) the players it takes to acquire Rowand could be costly to the Yanks in other ways.

pedro had already four 200+ inning seasons logged with montreal. baseball should have stopped that deal in the best interests of the game, but was toothless and too self-flatulant to do so.

this beckett deal, though it stinks, is really not even in the same galaxy as that deal. what i don't understand is this:

why wouldn't florida let burnett sign someplace and then pull the trigger on a deal for beckett? seems you can get more from boston if they haven't the luxury of submitting an offer on burnett to fall back on....

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 12:55 PM
There is no Yankee tax. There just aren't Yankee players to trade after Cano and Wang. Every deal starts off with Team A asking for Team B's Cano and Wang. Team B always says no. The issue becomes, does Team B have something else that Team A wants? The Red Sox were able to trade for Beckett because they had a player after Lester that the Marlins still wanted in Sanchez. The Yankees currently don't have that...they don't have a guy in the upper minors or pre-arbitration who is comparable to Cano to substitute for him. Years of questionably conservative drafts (all run out of Tampa, btw) have put the Yankees in this situation.
I couldn't agree with you more. Hopefully, by July of next season, the Yankees will have enough their young prospects progress enough so that other teams would like to trade for them. The Yankees have too many of their prime prospects in "A" ball. The Yankees got to get themselves in a stronger position when they're dealing from strength instead of weakness.

Jace
11-22-05, 01:04 PM
pedro had already four 200+ inning seasons logged with montreal.


This isn't really an argument against Beckett. He's been increasing his innings every year, and the lack of huge workload seasons early in his career actually should help him in the future. Pedro was a much better pitcher, but the innings argument doesn't really hurt Beckett (he is injury prone I guess, but with blisters, oh no, and less so every year).

BJG
11-22-05, 01:07 PM
This isn't really an argument against Beckett. He's been increasing his innings every year, and the lack of huge workload seasons early in his career actually should help him in the future. Pedro was a much better pitcher, but the innings argument doesn't really hurt Beckett (he is injury prone I guess, but with blisters, oh no, and less so every year).

That would be fine if not for the shoulder problems that shut him down this year. If you had a guy who has some track record, even in the minors, of being able to carry a full load who then got sidelined by the blisters and kept his workload down, I would agree with you. With Beckett, though, you have a guy who has never shown he can handle the workload and who, on his first opportunity to do so, developed arm problems.

yankswn23
11-22-05, 01:47 PM
Lets try to get prior and wood now to counter..

knickfan23
11-22-05, 01:56 PM
That wasn't the question. The question was, name 10 pitchers in his age group that are better than Beckett. We found more than 10

Oh I agree with you that there are 10 pitchers better than Beckett. But my point is, you can find a pitcher like that on the FA market anymore. That type of guy hasnt been available for a few years now. The names that were mentioned (except Patterson because I am unfamiliar with him) are not not going to be allowed into FA at 26, 27, 28 without being signed long term first. Hell, even Milwaukee was able to find money to give Sheets 10 mil a year.




OK, so make it even more arbitrary and make 25 the cutoff: Peavy, Felix, Harden, Duke, Willis, Zambrano, Prior, and so on.

Zach Duke and Felix have pitched a combined 6 months of MLB ball, you cannot be serious by saying those two are better than Beckett. As far as Prior, him and Beckett are even at best. Each has pitched great in the playoffs and each have had alot of DL stints. The best one of the bunch would be Zambrano.



Beckett wasn't available until this week either.

That was a special situation. The team is running low on funds and will have to move out of Miami soon. They have to get of players. No team in baseball outside of Tampa, Pittsburgh and KC has a worse situation than Florida. Good players, not a bad team, but play in a big city that doesnt support the team. Bad spot.



If the Yankees make the same trade, it better be for someone who is of a lesser risk...someone they can reasonably be expected to pitch more than 170 innings...because if it doesn't work out, they don't have the fallbacks that the Sox have.

So I ask you my friend, who is that guy? I cant think of who it would be. Sheets would have been the best guy to get before he signed for 4 years. Its a real tricky thing.

BJG
11-22-05, 02:08 PM
Oh I agree with you that there are 10 pitchers better than Beckett. But my point is, you can find a pitcher like that on the FA market anymore. That type of guy hasnt been available for a few years now. The names that were mentioned (except Patterson because I am unfamiliar with him) are not not going to be allowed into FA at 26, 27, 28 without being signed long term first. Hell, even Milwaukee was able to find money to give Sheets 10 mil a year.

That's fine, but I would again point out that Beckett wasn't available until a few days ago either.


Zach Duke and Felix have pitched a combined 6 months of MLB ball, you cannot be serious by saying those two are better than Beckett. As far as Prior, him and Beckett are even at best. Each has pitched great in the playoffs and each have had alot of DL stints. The best one of the bunch would be Zambrano.

The best of the bunch would be Peavy, actually. Anyway, Beckett has legit issues re his ability to carry a full load, he has legit questions about his ability to pitch outside of his home park, both in the larger sense of preventing runs and the predictive sense of doing things like striking guys out. Oh, and while Duke and Felix might lack experience, they are also 3 and 6 years younger respectively. That has value. Prior simply projects better.


That was a special situation. The team is running low on funds and will have to move out of Miami soon. They have to get of players. No team in baseball outside of Tampa, Pittsburgh and KC has a worse situation than Florida. Good players, not a bad team, but play in a big city that doesnt support the team. Bad spot.

Really? The Twins are having more problems. The Nationals still don't have ownership and their stadium plans are falling apart. That's 6 teams.


So I ask you my friend, who is that guy? I cant think of who it would be. Sheets would have been the best guy to get before he signed for 4 years. Its a real tricky thing.

The guy doesn't have to exist. If the risk doesn't make sense for your organization, you don't make the move. If a better player comes along, you take try for that. If they don't, you stick with what you have. The Yankees don't have to trade anyone.

Yankees13
11-22-05, 02:08 PM
More and more it appears that teams are making unrealisitc requests (Wanting both Wang and Cano) even though it's been written time and time again that those are just not available options.

Are teams just not interested in dealing with the Yankees?
I'm starting to think that this is this case considering the Marlins asked the Yankees for more than what they got for Josh Beckett for Juan "325 OBP" Pierre.

NYYBombshell
11-22-05, 02:11 PM
You keep saying that Beckett isn't that good. Can you name 10 pitchers in the league (age being a factor) that you would rather have then Beckett?


Santana
Zito
Harden
Zambrano
Garland
McCarthy
Buherle
Halladay
Lilly
Clemens (I'd say he's better than 1/3 of this list)

YankClipper5
11-22-05, 02:17 PM
I can't believe people are upset about the sox getting Beckett and Lowell. We should be celebrating.

Exactly, this is the type of move that has burned us bad in the past. Taking on a bad contract and a pitcher with an injury history who is switching leagues to the absolute most competitive division is not a great move considering they are losing 2 great prospects.

JeffWeaverFan
11-22-05, 02:20 PM
Santana
Zito
Harden
Zambrano
Garland
McCarthy
Buherle
Halladay
Lilly
Clemens (I'd say he's better than 1/3 of this list)
To say you would rather have Garland, Lilly, or Clemens rather than Beckett is just insane. I would also rather Beckett than McCarthy (and I like McCarthy a lot).

JeffWeaverFan
11-22-05, 02:22 PM
Exactly, this is the type of move that has burned us bad in the past. Taking on a bad contract and a pitcher with an injury history who is switching leagues to the absolute most competitive division is not a great move considering they are losing 2 great prospects.
Hanley Ramirez is not going to amount to much in the majors IMO and they kept Lester. If they lost Lester, I would be much happier. Also, I believe Sanchez has had some injury problems.

Chambliss
11-22-05, 02:30 PM
I'm starting to think that this is this case considering the Marlins asked the Yankees for more than what they got for Josh Beckett for Juan "325 OBP" Pierre.

Do we know that Florida has requested Wang and Cano for Pierre? I've heard it bandied about, but I've never seen a link?

And remember, Boston also agreed to take on the remaining 18M of Mike Lowell's contract. So, the cost has been not only two prospects but taking on a guy who is a good bet to look like 2005 Kevin Millar @ 9M a season.

YankClipper5
11-22-05, 02:31 PM
Hanley Ramirez is not going to amount to much in the majors IMO and they kept Lester. If they lost Lester, I would be much happier. Also, I believe Sanchez has had some injury problems.

As a chip, Ramirez may have had the most value, simply going off of the fact that most rumors centered around him in a deal. I think the significance is that they added a terrible contract to a payroll in Lowell who basically resigns them to losing Bill Mueller, an exceptional hitter, and Millar since Youkilis will be at 1B. Beckett definitely has the stuff to succeed but I think he needs to substantially outperform his career numbers to prove his value in this trade, makes me wonder what Burnett is commanding that the Sox seemingly gave up on that as an option.

Yanks Lifer
11-22-05, 02:34 PM
Let's face it, as Yankee fans we have 2 things to look forward to:

1. Management always wants to put a winner on the field. :2thumbs:
2. Those not in the Yankee camp, HATE the rest of us. :nopity:

So be it!

JeffWeaverFan
11-22-05, 02:36 PM
As a chip, Ramirez may have had the most value, simply going off of the fact that most rumors centered around him in a deal. I think the significance is that they added a terrible contract to a payroll in Lowell who basically resigns them to losing Bill Mueller, an exceptional hitter, and Millar since Youkilis will be at 1B. Beckett definitely has the stuff to succeed but I think he needs to substantially outperform his career numbers to prove his value in this trade, makes me wonder what Burnett is commanding that the Sox seemingly gave up on that as an option.
Yeah, Ramirez has value as a trade chip, but I just don't like him as a ML hitter. We'll see though and he may end up being a superstar (now that he's with the Marlins, I hope he does become one).

Lowell seems like the obvious guy that took steroids and stopped and lost his power. But, if he works his ass off, he could regain what he lost (like Giambi did). I don't think he will but who knows.

His career numbers are pretty damn good. He just has to stay healthy. As for Beckett vs. Burnett, Beckett has proven more than Burnett and is MUCH cheaper in terms of $$$. After what happened with Clement, I could see the Sox being a little uneasy about giving an NL pitcher a 5 year/$50 million deal when they can get a guy for 2 years at about $5 and $8 million respectively per.

NYYBombshell
11-22-05, 02:45 PM
To say you would rather have Garland, Lilly, or Clemens rather than Beckett is just insane. I would also rather Beckett than McCarthy (and I like McCarthy a lot).


Insane? No, it's my opinion. I've seen those guys pitch and if I had the choice, I'd take them over Beckett. Agree........don't agree, I don't care, but don't belittle me.

ppa79
11-22-05, 02:48 PM
Zach Duke and Felix have pitched a combined 6 months of MLB ball, you cannot be serious by saying those two are better than Beckett. As far as Prior, him and Beckett are even at best.


I would take Prior and King Felix over Beckett any day.

JeffWeaverFan
11-22-05, 02:57 PM
I would take Prior and King Felix over Beckett any day.
I don't know about Prior because of his amazing amount of injuries, but I would take Felix over pretty much anyone in the league right now. Santana would be my first choice and King Felix would be my 2nd I think.

ppa79
11-22-05, 02:59 PM
I don't know about Prior because of his amazing amount of injuries, but I would take Felix over pretty much anyone in the league right now. Santana would be my first choice and King Felix would be my 2nd I think.

I was just responding to a poster that said that Prior is comparable to Beckett and he would take Beckett over King Felix. If I could take anyone, it would definitely be Santana. I think King Felix is going to be my favorite non Yankee pitcher.

I Love Wang
11-22-05, 03:01 PM
If both Prior and Beckett are healthy, Prior is a much better pitcher. However, Dusty Baker may have ruined his career with his stubborn, ignorant managing. I loathe Dusty Baker.

I'd take Felix over Beckett, but not Duke. Duke's peripherals don't impress me.

ppa79
11-22-05, 03:03 PM
[QUOTE=I Love Wang]If both Prior and Beckett are healthy, Prior is a much better pitcher. However, Dusty Baker may have ruined his career with his stubborn, ignorant managing. I loathe Dusty Baker.

QUOTE]

Prior was another talent that I loved watching. I hate Baker for what he did to him.

I Love Wang
11-22-05, 03:08 PM
Insane? No, it's my opinion. I've seen those guys pitch and if I had the choice, I'd take them over Beckett. Agree........don't agree, I don't care, but don't belittle me.

Don't offer up your opinion if you don't want a response. There is no logical rationale for wanting Ted Lilly or Jon Garland over Josh Beckett. Neither has any sort of impressive track record. Clemens may be retiring. You're just spouting nonsense to try and prove your point. And I'm not high on Beckett at all.

buntsalot2
11-22-05, 03:43 PM
after scanning all of the latest wires it is almost as if an act of collusion exists whereby teams/players are sidestepping Ca$h's overtures in an eerily suspicious "no comment" as the smoke rises from their fired revolvers. I have never been one to subscribe to conspiracy theory reactions, but, this is about as loopy as I have ever seen MLB in operation since salary caps and players union have come into existence. NOBODY wants to play/trade with the Yanks, as if their signing/trading of such former recent marquee names as Vasquez, Hernandez, Contreras, Pettitte, Clemens, etc. has shown some sort of cancerous attitude in The Apple. Not too long ago, everyone wanted to play in the Bronx. Now its as if word has leaked out that the pigeons have bird-flu! and are building more nests in the overhangs at Ruth's House. Yanks turned deaf to Pedro, Beltran, and others. Maybe the answer lies with the agents???
well... ta ell wit em mates!!!! Promote Columbus Clippers and let's get it on!!! oh, and don't make an offer to Weaver either, please.

rajah
11-22-05, 04:20 PM
This morning sucks.
Boston gets Beckett, and here we are talking about getting Rowand...Aaron Rowand for gods sake.
Wow nice counter move, we are screwed for the next 8 yrs now.

You sound like a Red Sox fan of a few years ago. Pitiful.

Sierra Mist
11-22-05, 06:49 PM
they make these requests because years ago all these requests were granted. The entire farm was traded for the likes of Denny Neagle, Sterling Hitchcock, Jay Witasick, Mark Wohlers, Enrique Wilson, and Mondesi.

swityak11
11-22-05, 06:53 PM
Not too long ago, everyone wanted to play in the Bronx. Shockingly enough, there are quite a few players that don't want to play for the Yankees.

There's no sense screaming conspiracy about it.

Sierra Mist
11-22-05, 06:57 PM
Shockingly enough, there are quite a few players that don't want to play for the Yankees.

There's no sense screaming conspiracy about it.

I dont know if its because of the Yankees in general, but a lot of players just dont want to play in the city of NY because of all the pressure.

I Love Wang
11-22-05, 07:07 PM
they make these requests because years ago all these requests were granted. The entire farm was traded for the likes of Denny Neagle, Sterling Hitchcock, Jay Witasick, Mark Wohlers, Enrique Wilson, and Mondesi.

The entire farm? The guys we dumped in those deals, other than D'Angelo Jiminez and Damaso Marte, have done nothing at the major league level. Scott Wiggins, Ricardo Araboles, Brett Jodie, Darren Blakely, Ed Yarnall, Jackson Melian, and Brian Reith are not what this team is missing.

swityak11
11-22-05, 07:10 PM
I dont know if its because of the Yankees in general, but a lot of players just dont want to play in the city of NY because of all the pressure.It could be the media pressure, it could be the cost of living and taxes. Sometimes it's that they don't want their playing time reduced to a backup role when they could start somewhere else.

There's a lot of reasons not to play in New York. It's the sense of entitlement some fans have that every player should love to play for the Yanks that annoys me.

BJG
11-22-05, 07:16 PM
I dont know if its because of the Yankees in general, but a lot of players just dont want to play in the city of NY because of all the pressure.

A lot of people don't want to play in Kansas City because it's too small, a lot of people don't want to play in Toronto because of the value of the dollar, etc. Teams get turned down all the time by players. The Yankees:

1) happen to be the team people on this board follow more than others
2) happen to have more daily press coverage to fill
3) happen to be in a financial position to, at least, ask about any player that comes onto the market.

dogg
11-22-05, 07:27 PM
Wanting Cano and Wang isn't being unreasonable when you're trading a young stud like Beckett. They're the only two ML ready, cheap trading chips the Yanks have.

I don't see it as a reluctance to trade with the Yanks.

And like it or not boston has just improved themselves immeasurably and did so without their boy wonder GM. Now the rumor is that AJ Burnett is leaning towards joining his good buddy Josh. What moves can the Yanks make to keep even with this?

I Love Wang
11-22-05, 07:29 PM
And like it or not boston has just improved themselves immeasurably and did so without their boy wonder GM. Now the rumor is that AJ Burnett is leaning towards joining his good buddy Josh. What moves can the Yanks make to keep even with this?

Where is this a rumor? Thats insane. They've already said they won't offer him 5 years, and the money would be prohibitive. Not to mention he'd be their 8th starting pitcher.

yankeebot
11-22-05, 07:36 PM
There is going to be an adjustment period as GMs, players and agents get to know the "new" Yankee management. I see the lack of moves so far as an indication that the Yankees will:
-no longer overpay
-no longer offer unnecessary long-term deals
-no longer be used to drive up salaries
-not trade away the farm for aging veterans

All good things. Patience will be required. Other teams will need time to realize it is not just posturing.

panicfan
11-22-05, 07:39 PM
I think the best thing about the Josh Beckett threads in the past couple days is the people trying to convince themselves that this was
a) good for the yankees
b)bad for the sox
c)that Beckett isn't that good.

Guys,

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt! :P

That wasn't the question. The question was, name 10 pitchers in his age group that are better than Beckett. We found more than 10



OK, so make it even more arbitrary and make 25 the cutoff: Peavy, Felix, Harden, Duke, Willis, Zambrano, Prior, and so on



Beckett wasn't available until this week either.



Because the Red Sox still have Delcarmen, Paplepon, and Lester. They still have Pedroida. Heck, they even still have Youkilis. Their depth has inherently lowered the organizational risk. If the Yankees make the same trade, it better be for someone who is of a lesser risk...someone they can reasonably be expected to pitch more than 170 innings...because if it doesn't work out, they don't have the fallbacks that the Sox have.

BJG
11-22-05, 07:46 PM
I think the best thing about the Josh Beckett threads in the past couple days is the people trying to convince themselves that this was
a) good for the yankees
b)bad for the sox
c)that Beckett isn't that good.

Guys,

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt! :P

Of course he's good for the Sox. He just isn't a slam dunk, sure fire, greatest thing ever, top 10 pitcher in baseball good thing for the Sox.

In the immediate short term, it's also not good for the Yankees. However, if you look beyond this to the long term implications of the team not taking a risk that they seem unable to take due to a lack of depth and saving their chips, if they do trade them, for a player that might be able to address a bigger hole on their team is a good thing for the Yankees.

whalers
11-22-05, 08:05 PM
I think the best thing about the Josh Beckett threads in the past couple days is the people trying to convince themselves that this was
a) good for the yankees
b)bad for the sox
c)that Beckett isn't that good.

Guys,

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt! :P

I see what you mean but to a Yankee fan this smells of Vasquez, Pavano, and even RJ. More so Vasquez. He was an even better pither than Becket when the Yankees acquired him he had a better ERA the previous 3 seasons. There are examples throughout the AL where former NL pitchers do not see the same results during there first season. You dont think it could happen again? I sure hope it does.

panicfan
11-22-05, 08:11 PM
I hope that Beckett has blister problems for the next ten years and never gets a win. But it just seems like there's a lot of sour grapes. I guess only time will tell whether this was a good move. But on the surface it is a very good one.

I see what you mean but to a Yankee fan this smells of Vasquez, Pavano, and even RJ. More so Vasquez. He was an even better pither than Becket when the Yankees acquired him he had a better ERA the previous 3 seasons. There are examples throughout the AL where former NL pitchers do not see the same results during there first season. You dont think it could happen again? I sure hope it does.

BeantownYankee
11-22-05, 09:23 PM
I hope that Beckett has blister problems for the next ten years and never gets a win. But it just seems like there's a lot of sour grapes. I guess only time will tell whether this was a good move. But on the surface it is a very good one.
This was a risk the sox had to take in my opinion. Most of the sox prospects are overhyped (Just see how their fans have already started putting down Hanley R. and Sanchez). So they
gave up three players that may have a so-so major league career for a good Pitcher in Beckett who may wind up having injuries from time to time. Would I have liked to see him on the Yankees? Part of me says yes the other part looks at Pavano, Clement, Wright, and Vaz and I would still take a chance on him, but not for the prive Florida was asking. Anyway don't be surprised if we don't make any big noise this offseason.

George Steinbrenner
11-22-05, 09:32 PM
And the Yankees glut of minor league talent isn't at the AAA stage, it's at the lower levels, where they are stacked (though, shhhh...don't tell Gammons, he'd like to keep trashing them). It is what it is, this might be the offseason that the Yankees just take their lumps and keep letting the farm develop.

As long as BIG STEIN'S runnin the show we certainly will not be taking any lumps, we'll be giving kung-fu combo's to both Sox and the rest of the league.
And we will be joining in as vultures to pick some prime meat away from the relocating fish in Miami. I cant believe Boston got Beckett,arguably the best young pitcher in baseball. We must respond. We need atleast one of the 4 relievers: Ryan, Gordon, Wickman, Wagner. No way am I relying Tanyon Sturtze or Scott Eyre or Matt Smith to bridge to Mo. We need a cream of the crop setup man, preferably a lefty. I prefer Ryan, but if he goes elsewhere we need to break the bank and give Wagner an equal salary as Mo for 2 years. I have no idea whats going on with the centerfield situation. Hearing "Bubba Crosby" and "opening day" makes me shudder. Maybe we can rape the Marlins out of Juan Pierre. Maybe Carlos Delgado. All I know is that the first major shot was fired this offseason by Boston, and it was a fantastic move for them. Its basically like they are trading Manny Ramirez (and his huge salary) and 2 prospects for Josh Beckett (+ Mike Lowell and his huge salary). Whatever they can salvage from the Angels for ManRam is gravy. Thats the swap and it is a genius move. Beckett is a proven Yankee killer and for the first time since Bubba and Sheffield collided, I am officially hitting the panic button. Thankfully, we still have Torre and Cashman running the sho, and we still have a fantastic core team. I cant wait to see what we do.

BIG STEIN WANTS TO MAKE A BIG SPLASH! LETS GO YANKEES! LETS GET IT #27-IN-06.

jimmykey2
11-22-05, 09:52 PM
I think the best thing about the Josh Beckett threads in the past couple days is the people trying to convince themselves that this was
a) good for the yankees
b)bad for the sox
c)that Beckett isn't that good.

Guys,

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt! :P


True, true, and true.

I still don't understand how anyone can downplay this. They received a former World Series MVP with amazing stuff who's YOUNGER THAN ANYONE ON OUR PITCHING STAFF for 3 prospects... one of whom (Sanchez) might be good and another that's overrated (Ramirez).

As far as the actual topic of this thread, I do believe there are a number of teams that seek to rape and pillage the Yankees in exchange for their aging players, let alone their younger ones. Last year at this time, you couldn't beg someone to take Robby and no one knew who Wang was. Now, all these bastards want BOTH of them plus your top 3 prospects. I realize the Yanks don't have ML ready prospects in the minors, but did anyone think either of those 2 guys fell into that category on 11-22-04?

TommyK8
11-22-05, 10:53 PM
I want to address the original question posed in this thread: Do team simply not want to deal with the Yanks?

The reason this is such an interesting question is that the Yankees helped to build their dynasty through trades such as the one just pulled off by the Red Sox. It used to be a bigger part of their strategy than just signing free agents. The Yanks traded for the following players: Paul O'Neill, David Cone, John Wetteland, Tino Martinez, Roger Clemens, Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, David Justice, Charlie Hayes, and Jeff Nelson.

It's not that teams don't want to trade with the Yankees. In the last couple years, they have acquired the following players via trade: Alex Rodriguez, Randy Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Kevin Brown, Raul Mondesi, Aaron Boone, and Shawn Chacon. It doesn't appear that the Yanks have had any trouble finding partners to make spectacular and huge trades. However, they have signed so many players to long term contracts for huge money, there are way too many players on the big league level that are untradable (Posada, Giambi, Mussina, etc.) And the farm system is not loaded with the top level prospects necessary to make a lot of trades, so the Yankees are a little hamstrung when it comes to trading. It's not that teams don't want to deal with the Yanks, but the Yanks have very few bargaining chips.

CTSoxFan
11-22-05, 11:39 PM
More and more it appears that teams are making unrealisitc requests (Wanting both Wang and Cano) even though it's been written time and time again that those are just not available options.

Are teams just not interested in dealing with the Yankees?

I'm not sure how realistic it is for the Yankees to expect to be able to trade, and yet say that Wang and Cano (and Hughes and Duncan) are "off limits." I think it's smart for the Yankees to return to the general mission statement of developing their own players, but it does mean that teams are going to do less trading with them because of the prohibitive contracts that are around on the MLB level. Run down the list of ballplayers worth having on the Yankees. There are many, but most of them come with huge contracts that other teams can't swallow. (Sheffield is probably the only starter with an affordable deal, and he has crushed the appeal by openly stating how lazy he'll play for a team he doesn't want to go to!) So quite naturally, teams turn to the young affordable talent, which are of course exactly the kind of guys the Yankees are trying to hang onto.

The Red Sox have been in the same boat recently, with Theo holding the line against trading the young talent. Only when Beckett became available did the front office (whoever the hell is running it these days) relent and offer up one prospect who's blocked by Renteria, and two pitching prospects, one very good, one less so.

I think the Yankees have the right idea, telling everyone that the cream of their minor league crop is untouchable unless a really really good deal comes along.