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ring403
11-22-05, 06:53 AM
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1132641043208490.xml&coll=1
As they struggle to convince their top choices to sign with them, the Yankees are exploring a wide range of free agents and other options to fill their needs in center field and in the bullpen.

A baseball official familiar with the Yankees' plans said they recently reached out to the Oakland A's to ask about the availability of center fielder Mark Kotsay. The official said the A's aren't opposed to moving Kotsay, but that talks stalled when Oakland asked about second baseman Robinson Cano and pitcher Chien-Ming Wang -- the two players everybody keeps asking the Yankees about.

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 06:54 AM
Is this another Graziano musing?

rightfielder21
11-22-05, 06:55 AM
Still don't trade Cano or Wang for him...

aeromac76
11-22-05, 07:10 AM
We are in a bad spot here, we cannot get what we need via free agency because it really is not out there. Unless we want to major overpay for someone, and the Yankee tax on trades is always there.
Florida deals Beckett and Lowell for three prospects, two of which are notable, but we get asked for Cano AND Wang for Juan Pierre, who I would not trade either of them for, much less both.
One way or the other, we are going to be stuck overpaying, either in players or money, and I would rather it be cash..
Giles is looking to drive up the price. SD offers 3 at 25, if we offer 3 at 30, he'll take it back to SD and work something out, you just know it. So blow them away, offer 3 at 40, it is only an extra 3 million a year, and you immediately eliminate most of the competition.
Giles might leave 3 or 4 million on the table to sign at home, but he won't leave 15 million to do it. Yeah I know, we start to become bidding against ourselves.
Do the same with BJ Ryan, just knock the doors down. Make these guys offers they simply cannot refuse.
Bottom line, we have money to burn, but not players. And teams are asking us for Cano and Wang for the right to negotiate with their ball boys. We are not going to fill our needs in trades unless we wait everyone out, which is very risky, or deal guys we don't want to deal. I'd rather risk a couple of overloaded contracts than trade Cano, Wang, Hughes, Duncan et al...

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 07:13 AM
We are in a bad spot here, we cannot get what we need via free agency because it really is not out there. Unless we want to major overpay for someone, and the Yankee tax on trades is always there.
Florida deals Beckett and Lowell for three prospects, two of which are notable, but we get asked for Cano AND Wang for Juan Pierre, who I would not trade either of them for, much less both.
One way or the other, we are going to be stuck overpaying, either in players or money, and I would rather it be cash..
Giles is looking to drive up the price. SD offers 3 at 25, if we offer 3 at 30, he'll take it back to SD and work something out, you just know it. So blow them away, offer 3 at 40, it is only an extra 3 million a year, and you immediately eliminate most of the competition.
Giles might leave 3 or 4 million on the table to sign at home, but he won't leave 15 million to do it. Yeah I know, we start to become bidding against ourselves.
Do the same with BJ Ryan, just knock the doors down. Make these guys offers they simply cannot refuse.
Bottom line, we have money to burn, but not players. And teams are asking us for Cano and Wang for the right to negotiate with their ball boys. We are not going to fill our needs in trades unless we wait everyone out, which is very risky, or deal guys we don't want to deal. I'd rather risk a couple of overloaded contracts than trade Cano, Wang, Hughes, Duncan et al...
I'm sorry, but that's nuts! No wonder why the Yankees and their fans are so despise by everyone.

ppa79
11-22-05, 07:15 AM
Kotsay's good, but I still can't trade Duncan, Clippard, Hughes, Wang, or Cano for him.

YankeeStripes
11-22-05, 07:16 AM
It might be time to just bite the bullet and sign Damon. :-(

rightfielder21
11-22-05, 07:16 AM
It might be time to just bite the bullet and sign Damon. :-(

Ummm, no... :)

ppa79
11-22-05, 07:17 AM
It might be time to just bite the bullet and sign Damon. :-(

:eek: :eek:

NYDCYankee
11-22-05, 07:24 AM
It might be time to just bite the bullet and sign Damon. :-(

What if we give Damon big money for 3 years. I don't think anyone that is in the market for centerfielders will be willing to give him more than that anyway.

If people are going to continue to try to rip us off it might be worth it.

rightfielder21
11-22-05, 07:26 AM
I'm sorry, but that's nuts! No wonder why the Yankees and their fans are so despise by everyone.

I'm not so sure of that... Taken to the extreme it is, but if used "correctly" it makes sense... Let's be honest as we have witnessed through many seasons now, the Yankees will get fleeced in trades while others get discounts... That's just the way it is... One advantage the Yankees have is money...

Now I'm not saying go out and throw money carelessly at everyone... But the Yankees have several major holes to fill… If giving BJ Ryan or Giles $10 million more over the life of their contact to get them here it is worth it…

If Cano and Wang are untouchable as Cashman says, short of a superstar (which none of the proposed deals with them are) we have to deal through FA… I would rather give Giles an extra $10 million over three years than sign Damon…

If teams aren’t going to trade “fairly” with them, they must use their strongest asset to improve the team… This system also keeps the minor leagues intact...

ppa79
11-22-05, 07:28 AM
I'm sorry, but that's nuts! No wonder why the Yankees and their fans are so despise by everyone.

I don't care about fans of other teams.

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 07:30 AM
I'm not so sure of that... Taken to the extreme it is, but if used "correctly" it makes sense... Let's be honest as we have witnessed through many seasons now, the Yankees will get fleeced in trades while others get discounts... That's just the way it is... One advantage the Yankees have is money...

Now I'm not saying go out and throw money carelessly at everyone... But the Yankees have several major holes to fill… If giving BJ Ryan or Giles $10 million more over the life of their contact to get them here it is worth it…

If Cano and Wang are untouchable as Cashman says, short of a superstar (which none of the proposed deals with them are) we have to deal through FA… I would rather give Giles an extra $10 million over three years than sign Damon…

If teams aren’t going to trade “fairly” with them, they must use their strongest asset to improve the team…
It is nuts because you're going to throw the whole salary structure of baseball out of whack again. The Yankees have a responsibility to their fans, but also to the general good for the game of baseball.

rightfielder21
11-22-05, 07:31 AM
It is nuts because you're going to throw the whole salary structure of baseball out of whack again.

Giving Giles 3/35 isn't going to throw the "whole salary structure of baseball out of whack"...

If giving someone an extra 3 million per year over three years is enough to throw a system out of whack, then the system has major problems...

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 07:31 AM
I don't care about fans of other teams.
Obviously, but I care about the well-being of baseball for all fans.

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 07:34 AM
Giving Giles 3/35 isn't going to throw the "whole salary structure of baseball out of whack"...
Unless, I'd read his post wrong, he was talking about giving Giles an extra 10M over the the original 30-33M offer of three years.

NYDCYankee
11-22-05, 07:35 AM
Giving Giles 3/35 isn't going to throw the "whole salary structure of baseball out of whack"...

If giving someone an extra 3 million per year over three years is enough to throw a system out of whack, then the system has major problems...

Agreed. Some teams give players more than they deserve when they are desperate. Look at the Tigers and Magglio Ordonez, they could have had Vlad for what they paid for him. That didn't destroy the structure of baseball now did it.

Saxmania
11-22-05, 07:35 AM
It might be time to just bite the bullet and sign Damon. :-(

There are other CF possibilities out there. Say it with me: "Wil-ker-son . . ."

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

rightfielder21
11-22-05, 07:36 AM
Unless, I'd read his post wrong, he was talking about giving Giles an extra 10M over the the original 30-33M offer of three years.

I was talking about $10 million more than the would get from the Padres...

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 07:36 AM
Giving Giles 3/35 isn't going to throw the "whole salary structure of baseball out of whack"...

If giving someone an extra 3 million per year over three years is enough to throw a system out of whack, then the system has major problems...
It sure does because the New York Yankees can't field a contending team for less than 200M.

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 07:37 AM
I was talking about $10 million more than the would get from the Padres...
He wasn't which is why I responded like I've done.

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 07:39 AM
Agreed. Some teams give players more than they deserve when they are desperate. Look at the Tigers and Magglio Ordonez, they could have had Vlad for what they paid for him. That didn't destroy the structure of baseball now did it.
If the trend continues it will because Ordonez's contract is one of the reasons why the Yankees had to pay more for Matsui last week.

NYDCYankee
11-22-05, 07:40 AM
There are other CF possibilities out there. Say it with me: "Wil-ker-son . . ."

I would love that. But I am not so sure he is available. Everyone assumes he is do to the glut of outfielders in Washington, but I have you to see any real strong rumors about him moving anywhere. We gotta remember Preston Wilson is a free agent and I think Jose Guillen just had surgery, so maybe they will keep him. Particularly with the injury prone nature of Nick Johnson.

NYDCYankee
11-22-05, 07:41 AM
If the trend continues it will because Ordonez's contract is one of the reasons why the Yankees had to pay more for Matsui last week.

No no no no no. Matsui got paid that much because of what he is worth to the YANKEES. This has been repeated a thousand times.

rightfielder21
11-22-05, 07:42 AM
It sure does because the New York Yankees can't field a contending team for less than 200M.

You are overlooking the fact that many of those contracts were signed with the old CBA... Jeter is not worth almost $20 million a year, nor is Moose, or Giambi, ect...

Yanks Lifer
11-22-05, 07:44 AM
There are other CF possibilities out there. Say it with me: "Wil-ker-son . . ."

Be seeing you,

Saxmania


Will Washington ask for anything less than Wang, Cano, Duncan or Hughes, etc?? I'm not saying make such a trade, but why would they be different than any other team?

MTYankee23
11-22-05, 07:46 AM
It might be time to just bite the bullet and sign Damon. :-(

In a bad free agent market, that is the absolute worst thing you can do.

I'd honestly rather they stay put, build up the farm, cut some payroll, and take a shot at some value players at the deadline and next year when the rest of these teams overpay for the slop that's available this offseason.

This is assuming that Ryan and Giles (the only FA's of value) are using us to get better deals elsewhere.

mjdlight
11-22-05, 07:47 AM
Boras puts out a binder each year for all of his FA clients. The entry on Johnny Damon says, among other things:

"Damon will record his 3,000th hit by 2012; play more games in center field than anyone in baseball history by 2015; and have the second-highest fielding percentage ever by a center fielder a decade from now, too."

What can you say? :) I think Boras forgot to add, "Will find cure for cancer in 2018 while still putting up a decent OBP of over .300"

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/sports/baseball/22damon.html?8br

Yanks Lifer
11-22-05, 07:48 AM
I'm not so sure of that... Taken to the extreme it is, but if used "correctly" it makes sense... Let's be honest as we have witnessed through many seasons now, the Yankees will get fleeced in trades while others get discounts... That's just the way it is... One advantage the Yankees have is money...

Now I'm not saying go out and throw money carelessly at everyone... But the Yankees have several major holes to fill… If giving BJ Ryan or Giles $10 million more over the life of their contact to get them here it is worth it…

If Cano and Wang are untouchable as Cashman says, short of a superstar (which none of the proposed deals with them are) we have to deal through FA… I would rather give Giles an extra $10 million over three years than sign Damon…

If teams aren’t going to trade “fairly” with them, they must use their strongest asset to improve the team… This system also keeps the minor leagues intact...

I agree with the logic of what you're saying and personally do think most teams hold the Yankees over a barrel. The problem comes with what's viewed as a "fair" trade. We may say otherwise, but as Yankee fans we largely see these deals more subjectively than objectively.

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 07:51 AM
No no no no no. Matsui got paid that much because of what he is worth to the YANKEES. This has been repeated a thousand times.
It's not the only reason because during those negotiations there is little doubt that the terms of Ordonez's contract were an issue.

BeantownYankee
11-22-05, 07:53 AM
There are other CF possibilities out there. Say it with me: "Wil-ker-son . . ."

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Would love to see it, however I'm sure any discussion begins with Ca-no and/or W-ang

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 07:57 AM
You are overlooking the fact that many of those contracts were signed with the old CBA... Jeter is not worth almost $20 million a year, nor is Moose, or Giambi, ect...
I'm not overlooking that fact!

rightfielder21
11-22-05, 08:05 AM
I'm not overlooking that fact!

So the Yankees should just leave holes in the 2006 team to make up for signing players under the old CBA?

If not, how would you solve the CF and bullpen problem?

NYDCYankee
11-22-05, 08:06 AM
It's not the only reason because during those negotiations there is little doubt that the terms of Ordonez's contract were an issue.

Well I don't agree with that. Ordonez is not the international marketing chip that Matsui is. Matsui is flat a goldmine. And healthy. And better.

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 08:07 AM
So the Yankees should just leave holes in the 2006 team to make up for signing players under the old CBA?

If not, how would you solve the CF and bullpen problem?
Yes, I would rather have holes on the 2006 team than have another season with a 200M plus payroll.

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 08:10 AM
Well I don't agree with that. Ordonez is not the international marketing chip that Matsui is. Matsui is flat a goldmine. And healthy. And better.
It has been reported in many news articles that Tellem used Ordonez's financial terms in his negotiations with the Yankees. However, I'm not disputing the generation of outside revenue streams were a major factor in these negotiations, but that doesn't mean the Yankees couldn't have signed Matsui for less, if Ordonez's contract wasn't used as a benchmark.

NYDCYankee
11-22-05, 08:17 AM
It has been reported in many news articles that Tellem used Ordonez's financial terms in his negotiations with the Yankees. However, I'm not disputing the generation of outside revenue streams were a major factor in these negotiations, but that doesn't mean the Yankees couldn't have signed Matsui for less, if Ordonez's contract wasn't used as a benchmark.

Any links?

Yankees1962
11-22-05, 08:20 AM
Any links?
Just look in the Matsui thread which has plenty of links to those articles.

YankClipper5
11-22-05, 08:29 AM
Any reason why Milton Bradley's name is never mentioned? The Dodgers have considered releasing him outright if they can't find a trading partner. Sure he is a headcase but he has the talent and youth to make him worth the gamble. IMO, he is by far the most talented CF available and can probably be had cheaper than some other options. The Dodgers signed Cruz Jr and it is known of the problems with Bradley, why not give it a try. Sure the market is thin for CF but there are not many teams in the market for one either.

-tz
11-22-05, 08:33 AM
Any reason why Milton Bradley's name is never mentioned? :eek:

rightfielder21
11-22-05, 08:50 AM
Yes, I would rather have holes on the 2006 team than have another season with a 200M plus payroll.

How much did you honestly expect the 2006 payroll to drop? Just because Bernie, Brown, and several others came off the books doesn't mean that their old positions left with them...

The Yankees still need to field a 25 man roster with a few of those 25 big parts of the team...

Sure I would love for the payroll to drop, and in time it will... Just not filling holes and fielding an inferior team for the sake of not reaching a number (200) is foolish....

I expect the payroll to be lower this year but not by much, which can partially be attributed to the contracts under the old CBA...

The only way there are two ways that you can have a dramatic drop in payroll…

One is to ignore the present holes and construct the team with cheap and less talented players (which seems to be your approach)

The other method is to replace the open holes with your own talented minor leaguers… In about 2-4 years this will be a viable option for the Yankees, and when the payroll will drop the the way you want it to…

In the meantime in order to remain competitive the Yankees can either trade the minor leaguers that will help them lower payroll for quick fixes (Cano and Wang for Hunter) or sign FA’s until the minor leaguers are ready to take their place… Using this method, the payroll will drop little by little, until the minor leaguers are ready, when it will like you want…

Seeing how the Yankees are not going to follow your method any time soon (don’t sign decent replacements and wait until the minor leaguers are ready; which mean putting an inferior product on the field until then) they have to go with either trading or FA, and I hope they go with FA…

You seem to be concerned about what other people say about you... I'm more concerned about watching a quality baseball team, and could care less of what people say... Whether the payroll is $200 million, or $190 million they re still going to talk...

Kulish29
11-22-05, 08:53 AM
Too expensive. No thanks.

Yankee Bulldawg
11-22-05, 09:12 AM
any team that deals with the Yankees is gonna want either Cano, Wang, Hughes, Ducan or Clippard and the Yankees are'nt gonna trade either one of these young players

Saxmania
11-22-05, 10:16 AM
Will Washington ask for anything less than Wang, Cano, Duncan or Hughes, etc?? I'm not saying make such a trade, but why would they be different than any other team?

Because from what I've heard, Washington are very keen to move Wilkerson. He's quite expensive for them, they have a glut of cheaper (crappier) outfielders, and they don't really have a fixed position for him. Plus, I'm not convinced that they know how good he is, based upon a weaker 2005. I wouldn't be surprised if Washington settled for Henn + Cabrera, or if we're determined to get rid of Pavano, maybe Pavano + cash.

If we move while there's still a range of CFs on the market (Bradley, Hunter), however flawed, New York has a better bargaining position. Already Cameron's moved. It's also worth noticing that Wilkerson hasn't gotten the press of the other potential CFs out there, due to lack of flashy play (Hunter), controversy (Bradley), or big stage (Damon). Perception is important here, and Wilkerson's lack of a settled position plus all-around ability rather than exceptional quality in anyone area may play to the Yankees' advantage here.

At a stretch, I might trade Duncan of the four you named above for Wilkerson. I think he's far more 'potential' than any of the others (based upon age relative to level), but I don't expect that opinion to be popular around here.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

BroadwayBomber55
11-22-05, 10:19 AM
Mark Kotsay for Chien-Ming Wang and Robinson Cano?

You gotta be kidding me. No thanks.

Kotsay just signed a new contract with the Oakland Athletics. Forget it.

gold23
11-22-05, 10:21 AM
Boras puts out a binder each year for all of his FA clients. The entry on Johnny Damon says, among other things:

"Damon will record his 3,000th hit by 2012; play more games in center field than anyone in baseball history by 2015; and have the second-highest fielding percentage ever by a center fielder a decade from now, too."

What can you say? :) I think Boras forgot to add, "Will find cure for cancer in 2018 while still putting up a decent OBP of over .300"

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/sports/baseball/22damon.html?8br


The more games in CF thing is a little silly. He actually played the equivalent of three full years in the corner OF spots early in his career, and is not going to be CF-caliber in 4 years, let alone 9.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-22-05, 10:24 AM
Sounds to me like Cashman is leaving no stone unturned right up until the obvious is staring him in the face...they're going to sign Damon because there won't be anything left for centerfield, and George will want to respond for the Burkett trade. I'm not sure how limber Boras is, but he has to be doing backflips right now.

noneckwilliams
11-22-05, 10:58 AM
It might be time to just bite the bullet and sign Damon. :-(

No. That's the worst thing they could do. Gimme 162 games of Bubba over Damon.

NewEraYanks2527
11-22-05, 11:22 AM
Might as well close this one down, no way is Kotsay coming here.

Wang's Groundballs
11-22-05, 11:30 AM
I don't want Kotsay right now.

He's typically been one of the game's top defensive CFers, but this year -- probably due to injury -- he was one of the worst. He's just not worth what it's going to take at this point.

Wang's Groundballs
11-22-05, 11:31 AM
The more games in CF thing is a little silly. He actually played the equivalent of three full years in the corner OF spots early in his career, and is not going to be CF-caliber in 4 years, let alone 9.

He's not even CF cailber now.

YankeeFan1
11-22-05, 11:48 AM
I think the Yankees should consider trading Wang and a prospect for a decent centerfielder, maybe Kotsay or someone else. The time to sell Wang is when he has high value and that time is now.

Wang's Groundballs
11-22-05, 12:07 PM
I think the Yankees should consider trading Wang and a prospect for a decent centerfielder, maybe Kotsay or someone else. The time to sell Wang is when he has high value and that time is now.

What CF that is available is worth trading Wang for?

And we need all the SP depth we can get with Moose, Wright, and Pavano on the team.

YankeeFan1
11-22-05, 12:10 PM
What CF that is available is worth trading Wang for? It is up to the Yankees to decide if the centerfielder is worth the trade.

mjdlight
11-22-05, 12:13 PM
What CF that is available is worth trading Wang for?

Answer: None. If one cannot bear the thought of Bubba as the starting CF, then go and dump money on Damon. Do not trade away young pitchers with upside, unless the deal is breathtaking.

Pitchers are the hardest commodity to scout, draft, and develop. (TINSTAPP). The young ones that show promise must be held on to at all costs.

Maynerd
11-22-05, 12:26 PM
There are other CF possibilities out there. Say it with me: "Wil-ker-son . . ."


Somebody explain to me the fascination with Wilkerson. He's a .250 hitter. If that's all we need, we got Bubba.

I'd sooner explore the Giles or Furcal possibilities than give up any prospects to pick up somebody who doesn't seem to be a lot better than Bubba, even though he's got a boat load more playing time. Maybe I'm missing something.

MTYankee23
11-22-05, 12:30 PM
Somebody explain to me the fascination with Wilkerson. He's a .250 hitter. If that's all we need, we got Bubba.

I'd sooner explore the Giles or Furcal possibilities than give up any prospects to pick up somebody who doesn't seem to be a lot better than Bubba, even though he's got a boat load more playing time. Maybe I'm missing something.

Wilkerson's career OPS is .817, Bubba's is .554. There is no comparing the 2.

Wang's Groundballs
11-22-05, 12:39 PM
It is up to the Yankees to decide if the centerfielder is worth the trade.

Of course, but surely there must be somebody you think may be available that would be worth trading Wang for.

Wang's Groundballs
11-22-05, 12:40 PM
Somebody explain to me the fascination with Wilkerson. He's a .250 hitter. If that's all we need, we got Bubba.

Get back to me when Bubba has anywhere near Wilkerson's patience or powr.

YankeeFan1
11-22-05, 12:46 PM
Of course, but surely there must be somebody you think may be available that would be worth trading Wang for. "Surely?" Not really. Unlike Brain Cashman, I don't really have an indepth knowledge of all the outfielders available in the league. However, I do think that in the right circumstances, the Yankees should be open to trading Wang because his low K rate suggests that his upside is limited. However, if they decide not to trade him that is fine as well. Like I said on the other centerfield thread, maybe there is no one other there that the Yankees should trade for, period.

Saxmania
11-22-05, 12:55 PM
Somebody explain to me the fascination with Wilkerson. He's a .250 hitter. If that's all we need, we got Bubba.

I'd sooner explore the Giles or Furcal possibilities than give up any prospects to pick up somebody who doesn't seem to be a lot better than Bubba, even though he's got a boat load more playing time. Maybe I'm missing something.

You certainly are missing something.

Wilkerson: has hit 32 homeruns in his best season (2004), with a .498 slugging percentage and a .374 on-base percentage. He gets on base 36.5% of plate appearances throughout his career, and averages 64 extra-base hits over a 162-game season. Last year he had 60 extra-base hits in 565 at-bats, or one every 9.4 at-bats.

Crosby: has hit 2 homeruns in his best season (2004), with a .302 slugging percentage and a .196 on-base percentage. He gets on base 25.3% of plate appearances throughout his career, and averages 19 extra-base hits over a 162-game season. Last year he had 2 extra-base hits in 98 at-bats, or one every 49 at-bats.

Wilkerson is several orders of magnitude better as a hitter, and is also more flexible defensively, although I have no way of assessing his relative merits in CF compared to Crosby.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Wang's Groundballs
11-22-05, 01:04 PM
You certainly are missing something.

Last year he had 60 extra-base hits in 565 at-bats, or one every 9.4 at-bats.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

And he did this in an extreme pitchers' park.

NewEraYanks2527
11-22-05, 01:06 PM
I dont think the Nationals hate the Yankees as much as everyone else, maybe they will be willing to trade Wilkerson without asking a King's Ransom. Maybe the Yankees could package a deal for Wilkerson, there is more to Wilkerson than just his triple digit strikeouts and low average, he has speed, plays a solid outfield and hits alot of extra base hits. I have a hard time NOT liking him, especially in a lineup where he is surrounded by good hitters.

NewEraYanks2527
11-22-05, 01:10 PM
Here look at the ESPN scouting report on his defense:

"Although not a particularly fast runner, Wilkerson is very good at taking as many bases as the defense will allow and is very aggressive in breaking up double plays. He's a versatile outfielder who gets good jumps, takes smart routes and possesses a strong, accurate arm. At first base, his range is above average, and he shows surprisingly soft hands."

He would be a very good addition to the Yankees.

Maynerd
11-22-05, 01:14 PM
You certainly are missing something.


OK, so I was lazy and didn't look up the stats. Wilkerson is pretty clearly a better option than Bubba, but "several orders of magnitude?" I still don't see it. Better? Sure. Lots better? Not so much. The answer to our problems in Center Field? I don't think so.

I still like Furcal.

Saxmania
11-22-05, 01:20 PM
OK, so I was lazy and didn't look up the stats. Wilkerson is pretty clearly a better option than Bubba, but "several orders of magnitude?" I still don't see it. Better? Sure. Lots better? Not so much. The answer to our problems in Center Field? I don't think so.

I still like Furcal.

Wilkerson earned 23 total win shares in 2005, Crosby earned 2. So that's just over one order of magnitude - yep, I exaggerated. But if the alternative is Furcal, who's more expensive, never played CF, and a worse hitter (career OPS+ of 96 to Wilkerson's 111), then I'm forced to say that I like my answer to our problems better.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

whalers
11-22-05, 01:57 PM
OK, so I was lazy and didn't look up the stats. Wilkerson is pretty clearly a better option than Bubba, but "several orders of magnitude?" I still don't see it. Better? Sure. Lots better? Not so much. The answer to our problems in Center Field? I don't think so.

I still like Furcal.


You like a guy who has never played CF over a guy who is better hitting and fielding than Bubba and can play 1st. I dont get it.

Mark19
11-22-05, 02:11 PM
I am willing to deal a TOP prospect to get Kotsay. He is exactly what this team needs. We can try and peddle Small and Womack off on an NL team in exchange for a couple of minor leaguers who may have some potential.

Dr. Gonzo
11-22-05, 03:31 PM
It might be time to just bite the bullet and sign Damon. :-(
bite the bullet and start with Bubba in CF or maybe someone in spring training shines.

Tony53
11-22-05, 03:40 PM
"Surely?" Not really. Unlike Brain Cashman, I don't really have an indepth knowledge of all the outfielders available in the league. However, I do think that in the right circumstances, the Yankees should be open to trading Wang because his low K rate suggests that his upside is limited. However, if they decide not to trade him that is fine as well. Like I said on the other centerfield thread, maybe there is no one other there that the Yankees should trade for, period.

Why is this true when he is capable of getting 20 ground ball outs in a game? That should negate the fact that his K rate is a few below average.

Maynerd
11-22-05, 04:49 PM
You like a guy who has never played CF over a guy who is better hitting and fielding than Bubba and can play 1st. I dont get it.
I think he has the athleticism and certainly the arm to play Center. I dunno. Furcal seems remarkably consistent. Pretty close to .285 BA. Decent and consistent OBP and slugging average. Scores 100 runs a year, like clockwork.

Maybe I'm just enamored of the canon he's got for an arm, after enduring the lollipops Bernie's been throwing in from center.

I know that OPS tells more about a hitter's overall performance than Batting Average, but a Center Fielder who hits .250 scares me. He's patient and walks a lot. Great. Not what I'm looking for in Center Field.

How many years does Wilkerson have left on his contract? If there's a better market next year, would we be stuck with him?

I'll certainly take Wilkerson in a heartbeat over Bradley or Damon. I'll also take Bubba over either of those two. I'm just hoping that Cash can do better.

BeantownYankee
11-22-05, 05:04 PM
OK, so I was lazy and didn't look up the stats. Wilkerson is pretty clearly a better option than Bubba, but "several orders of magnitude?" I still don't see it. Better? Sure. Lots better? Not so much. The answer to our problems in Center Field? I don't think so.

I still like Furcal.

And Bubb:scared: a is?

ChinMusic
11-22-05, 05:14 PM
Giving Giles 3/35 isn't going to throw the "whole salary structure of baseball out of whack"...

If giving someone an extra 3 million per year over three years is enough to throw a system out of whack, then the system has major problems...


What's wrong with throwing the system out of whack? If other teams are refusing to trade fairly with us, what is wrong with rubbing their noses in ................ to make a legitimate point? Either trade fairly or we will make it so hard for you to resign your own free agents that youll wish that you traded fairly in the first place. If other teams truly are conspiring to not trade fairly with us, then maybe it is time that this point is made.

YankeeFan1
11-22-05, 06:51 PM
Why is this true when he is capable of getting 20 ground ball outs in a game? That should negate the fact that his K rate is a few below average. Because it is very unlikely that he can sustain his 29 groundball outs per game for an extended period of time. If the Yankees can get a player that they need and consider valuable for Wang then they should consider the trade.

I Love Wang
11-22-05, 07:10 PM
Because it is very unlikely that he can sustain his 29 groundball outs per game for an extended period of time. If the Yankees can get a player that they need and consider valuable for Wang then they should consider the trade.

Says who? G/F ratio is a repeatable skill.

TEPLimey
11-22-05, 07:12 PM
Because it is very unlikely that he can sustain his 29 groundball outs per game for an extended period of time.

Based on what? I agree that Wang may be at his highest value right now, but people have been saying "he can't maintain this" since day one.

drjeckyl
11-23-05, 05:31 AM
I'm sorry, but that's nuts! No wonder why the Yankees and their fans are so despise by everyone.


I completely agree that this strategy is absurd. To put it in a different perspective, Take the Mets as an example. it was laughable how much they had to overpay to get Pedro and Carlos last year. And, to hear that they may have to do the same to get Billy Wagner. I don't want to see the Yanks go down that road. A few years ago, I remember when it was said the Yanks win because they make good decisions and know how to spend their money. I’d rather be despised for that reason instead.

rightfielder21
11-23-05, 06:03 AM
I completely agree that this strategy is absurd. To put it in a different perspective, Take the Mets as an example. it was laughable how much they had to overpay to get Pedro and Carlos last year. And, to hear that they may have to do the same to get Billy Wagner. I don't want to see the Yanks go down that road. A few years ago, I remember when it was said the Yanks win because they make good decisions and know how to spend their money. I’d rather be despised for that reason instead.

The Mets don't spend the rest of their money wisely... There is no comparision....

drjeckyl
11-23-05, 09:57 AM
The Mets don't spend the rest of their money wisely... There is no comparision....

I agree. I wasn't trying to make a comparison between the Yankees and Mets. I was merely using the Mets as an example to point out the absurdity of overpending to get the best available FA, and why we shouldn't go down that road and give overwhelming offers to Giles and Ryan. If they don't want to come here for fair value, then move on.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-25-05, 12:26 AM
I wonder what Beane would want for Kotsay and Street. Cano, Pavano (cash), and prospect or two...

AMYanks
11-25-05, 12:31 AM
I wonder what Beane would want for Kotsay and Street. Cano, Pavano (cash), and prospect or two...

You'd probably have to start with Cano, Wang, and Hughes/Duncan.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-25-05, 01:49 AM
You'd probably have to start with Cano, Wang, and Hughes/Duncan.

It wouldn't be worth that, but its worth asking about them, and I am sure Cashman has...

I Love Wang
11-25-05, 02:07 AM
It wouldn't be worth that, but its worth asking about them, and I am sure Cashman has...

I'm sure Cashman hasn't asked about Street. Dirt-cheap and fantastic? I'm sure he's unavaliable.

Vin
11-25-05, 02:15 AM
Thinking about Cano's errors on the field, I'll probably trade him for gold glove caliber Kotsay. But Wang would be a different story.

bakntime
11-25-05, 02:23 AM
Thinking about Cano's errors on the field, I'll probably trade him for gold glove caliber Kotsay. But Wang would be a different story.Cano is only 22. Errors come with the territory at that age. He's got a very good glove, makes some great plays, turns a DP nicely... he just needs time to mature and the errors will come down. Young second basemen like him who can hit and field the way he does at that young an age, as well as handle the pressure of NY are few and far between.

Kotsay would be a nice pickup, but not at the expense of Cano that would leave us with a gaping hole at 2B for years to come, a hole that Cano fills very nicely right now.

JapanJobbers
11-25-05, 03:20 AM
Thinking about Cano's errors on the field, I'll probably trade him for gold glove caliber Kotsay. But Wang would be a different story.

I would do the oppostie.

jackson_23
11-25-05, 05:10 AM
[QUOTE=Yankees1962]It is nuts because you're going to throw the whole salary structure of baseball out of whack again. The Yankees have a responsibility to their fans, but also to the general good for the game of baseball.[QUOTE]
well if other baseball teams decided to stop trying to rip us off then we wouldnt need to offer ................ loads of money tog et players via free-agency

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-25-05, 01:10 PM
I'm sure Cashman hasn't asked about Street. Dirt-cheap and fantastic? I'm sure he's unavaliable.

So is Cano...

yanksphan
11-25-05, 01:21 PM
I would do the oppostie.

I was about to post the same.

I Love Wang
11-25-05, 01:48 PM
So is Cano...

Cano is not fantastic. He had a solid year, and his future looks promising. Street was the second best reliever in baseball last year.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-25-05, 01:51 PM
Cano is not fantastic. He had a solid year, and his future looks promising. Street was the second best reliever in baseball last year.

Position players are worth more than relief pitchers...

Tifoso
11-25-05, 01:53 PM
Position players are worth more than relief pitchers...

Exactly.

AMYanks
11-25-05, 01:53 PM
Position players are worth more than relief pitchers...

I'm sure Beane is not a fan of Cano's .320 OBP, and would not give up a tremendous closer for it.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-25-05, 01:55 PM
I'm sure Beane is not a fan of Cano's .320 OBP, and would not give up a tremendous closer for it.

Beane has moved on from composing a team entirely of players with high OBP, the kid is 22, plate disclipine is rarely there at that age. Also, I know Beane has asked about both him and Wang...

AMYanks
11-25-05, 01:58 PM
Beane has moved on from composing a team entirely of players with high OBP, the kid is 22, plate disclipine is rarely there at that age. Also, I know Beane has asked about both him and Wang...

It's not that Beane wouldn't like to have Cano on his team. But considering what he asked in return for Kotsay, Cano would only be the start of a much larger package for Street.

I Love Wang
11-25-05, 02:20 PM
Beane has moved on from composing a team entirely of players with high OBP, the kid is 22, plate disclipine is rarely there at that age. Also, I know Beane has asked about both him and Wang...

Plate discipline is rarely acquired in the mid 20's. My future hope for Cano is that he gets his BA average up to about .315, so that, even with his mediocre IsoPD, he could still end up with an OBP around .350, and, more significantly, slug in the .500+ or so range.

I doubt that Beane has asked for Cano in exchange for Street. I assure you he isn't listening to offers for him..

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-26-05, 01:54 AM
Plate discipline is rarely acquired in the mid 20's. My future hope for Cano is that he gets his BA average up to about .315, so that, even with his mediocre IsoPD, he could still end up with an OBP around .350, and, more significantly, slug in the .500+ or so range.

I doubt that Beane has asked for Cano in exchange for Street. I assure you he isn't listening to offers for him..

Considering Cano was never really polished in the minor leagues, its very possible he becomes polished in the majors at the plate. I agree with your projections though. Please, Beane is always listening to offers. In this market where relief pitchers are about to be highly overvalued, Beane knows what he has. I doubt Cano would get it done now, but rest assured Beane is listening, its what GMs do...