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BillAlex
12-15-05, 10:44 AM
I dont know why everyone thinks Nomar is DONE.
He basically played all of Aug and Sept last year, and here are his monthly totals...



........................AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG OPS AVG
August Totals 68 11 23 4 0 4 7 4 8 0 0 .378 .574 .952 .338
September Totals 103 9 32 7 0 5 19 4 6 0 0 .333 .524 .858 .311


They are not bad.

They certainly dont match up with the stats of Nomar's career best years from 1998-2000, but they are close to if not equal to Jeter's stats during Aug and Sept last year. Will he ever hit .357 or .372 again? Doubtful! but can he hit over .300 and hit 20+ HRs and 100+ RBIs, sure he can.

Now looking at Nomar's RF and ZR defensive stats from the end of last year, there definitly appears to be a dip, but if he is playing 1B and DH (not SS and 3B), then these stats are not as important. He wont be Tino or Mattingly at 1B, but he MAY be just as good, or better than, Giambi.

Boogiedown Bomber
12-15-05, 10:44 AM
I can't disagree with that.

I agree too! My problem with this is that Nomar is still viewed by some as the Nomar who led the Red Sox back in the late 90s. Too bad he isn't that Nomar.

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 10:50 AM
The whole Giambi not feeling comfortable in NY thing has ALWAYS been something solely driven by the NY media. I remember in '02-'03 there would be articles about how he wasn't comfortable in the Yankee clubhouse, how he had no friends...all of that turned out to be complete BS. Giambi loves NY, the guy loves the city and is probably spotted in Manhattan more than any other Yankee.
Plus, as we all saw last year, Giambi is tremendously popular with his teammates and other players around the league.

Given that Nomar would be playing some 1st base for the Yankees, it's great that Jason made this recruiting call. Less confident or less "team" guys might have felt threatened instead.

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 10:56 AM
I dont know why everyone thinks Nomar is DONE.
He basically played all of Aug and Sept last year, and here are his monthly totals...



........................AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG OPS AVG
August Totals 68 11 23 4 0 4 7 4 8 0 0 .378 .574 .952 .338
September Totals 103 9 32 7 0 5 19 4 6 0 0 .333 .524 .858 .311


They are not bad.

They certainly dont match up with the stats of Nomar's career best years from 1998-2000, but they are close to if not equal to Jeter's stats during Aug and Sept last year. Will he ever hit .357 or .372 again? Doubtful! but can he hit over .300 and hit 20+ HRs and 100+ RBIs, sure he can.

Now looking at Nomar's RF and ZR defensive stats from the end of last year, there definitly appears to be a dip, but if he is playing 1B and DH (not SS and 3B), then these stats are not as important. He wont be Tino or Mattingly at 1B, but he MAY be just as good, or better than, Giambi.


Good post here. There is def. an argument to be made either way. We don't NEED Nomar. I, as a fan, would enjoy watching him hit. But, it may be a little silly with the big three in the infield.

I guess I will go with the flow on this one since its outta my hands anyway.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 11:02 AM
Plus, as we all saw last year, Giambi is tremendously popular with his teammates and other players around the league.

Given that Nomar would be playing some 1st base for the Yankees, it's great that Jason made this recruiting call. Less confident or less "team" guys might have felt threatened instead.

Jason is a team player, especially since he would be giving up his 1B job

23and2
12-15-05, 11:05 AM
Although Nomar doesn't address a big need like CF or RP, he does make you better without handcuffing your ability to address those same big needs. Nomar is an opportunity the Yankees can afford to explore. What's ironic, to me, about the Nomar saga is he now has the potential to become the ultimate team player. It's ironic when you consider the circumstances that led Boston to trade him away.

jcan411
12-15-05, 11:15 AM
Although Nomar doesn't address a big need like CF or RP, he does make you better without handcuffing your ability to address those same big needs. Nomar is an opportunity the Yankees can afford to explore. What's ironic, to me, about the Nomar saga is he now has the potential to become the ultimate team player. It's ironic when you consider the circumstances that led Boston to trade him away.

I agree at some level. I would love to have nomar because he was a great player, and is a great name. but, why not try to get non-risk, solid players for our needs, instead of ????.

I think that was a problem last year, with too many guys with great upside potential, but less in the way of solid players we could count on. thats the way to build a solid team. We have three solid superstars in the lineup, with solid position players behind them. Becuase of that I say no to nomar...

wang+cano=future
12-15-05, 11:24 AM
Do you think the fact that Nomar's agent only said that the Yankees were one of the interested teams and did not mention the other 3 is an indication that we are being used as leverage for Nomar to get a better deal in LA, Houston or Cleveland?

gold23
12-15-05, 11:24 AM
I don't understand the resistance to Nomar. He's an injury risk, of course, but he would be filling a role that would be extremely easy to compensate a loss. He wouldn't be the primary player at any position- you'd have Giambi/Phillips for first, and the DH spot is fluid by nature. If they signed a Cairo type, you essentially have a utility player for all the infield spots.

Nomar can still swing the bat very well when not injured. It's not a huge money deal, and the years are short. Why not?

gold23
12-15-05, 11:25 AM
Do you think the fact that Nomar's agent only said that the Yankees were one of the interested teams and did not mention the other 3 is an indication that we are being used as leverage for Nomar to get a better deal in LA, Houston or Cleveland?


With Mueller signed, not sure LA is a landing spot for him anymore.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 11:26 AM
Do you think the fact that Nomar's agent only said that the Yankees were one of the interested teams and did not mention the other 3 is an indication that we are being used as leverage for Nomar to get a better deal in LA, Houston or Cleveland?

Yeah, pretty much

Yankee Bulldawg
12-15-05, 11:27 AM
i agree on that

whalers
12-15-05, 11:30 AM
With Mueller signed, not sure LA is a landing spot for him anymore.

Their infield is pretty much filled up except for 1st where I think they only have Choi. I am not sure who else they have for first but I think you are right when you say that LA is probably out of this now that Mueller is on board.

wang+cano=future
12-15-05, 11:35 AM
It is rumored that LA wants him as their LF, now that Bradley is gone and Drew is moving to center, so LA is still very much in the picture

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 11:38 AM
It is rumored that LA wants him as their LF, now that Bradley is gone and Drew is moving to center, so LA is still very much in the picture

Yes, we know this

ieddyi
12-15-05, 11:40 AM
It is rumored that LA wants him as their LF, now that Bradley is gone and Drew is moving to center, so LA is still very much in the picture

1B or infield would be less demanding for him physically

wang+cano=future
12-15-05, 11:40 AM
Well the two postings just before my last didn't seem to so I was letting them know the LA is still a possibility.

gold23
12-15-05, 11:40 AM
It is rumored that LA wants him as their LF, now that Bradley is gone and Drew is moving to center, so LA is still very much in the picture

I read a quote the other day that he would first like to remain in the infield....but we'll see.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 11:42 AM
Well the two postings just before my last didn't seem to so I was letting them know the LA is still a possibility.

Tell them to read the thread, its been posted several million times.

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 11:45 AM
Jason is a team player, especially since he would be giving up his 1B job
I don't believe Giambi would be totally giving up 1B...more like Nomar would fill in when Jason would be the DH or sitting out a game for whatever reason.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 11:49 AM
I don't believe Giambi would be totally giving up 1B...more like Nomar would fill in when Jason would be the DH or sitting out a game for whatever reason.

IDK, i think Jason would rather win, and Jason knows Nomar in the field means we are fielding a better defense

Plus he is a bright guy, he knows Nomar isn't gonna stay healthy :P

effdamets
12-15-05, 11:50 AM
I don't believe Giambi would be totally giving up 1B...more like Nomar would fill in when Jason would be the DH or sitting out a game for whatever reason.
Or gets suspended for steroids....

StaceyRosie
12-15-05, 11:52 AM
Or gets suspended for steroids....

Not cool.

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 12:06 PM
Or gets suspended for steroids.... Watch it.

shotgun_sam
12-15-05, 12:09 PM
Or gets suspended for steroids....
:mad: :mad: :mad:

effdamets
12-15-05, 12:15 PM
OK. First of all it was only a joke. But, does everyone think it CAN'T happen? Maybe the Yankees know something we don't?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 12:16 PM
OK. First of all it was only a joke. But, does everyone think it CAN'T happen? Maybe the Yankees know something we don't?


No player will ever get caught taking steroids, ever

surge511
12-15-05, 12:22 PM
I would put Nomar signing here at around 50/50. I think it would be a great signing, as it would really add significant power to the bottom of the lineup. Remember, guys - Nomar is a low-risk investment. He will have a relatively low salary, for 1 year, 2 tops, and will be expected to produce for the bottom of the lineup. He doesn't have to come in and save the team, by any respect.

shotgun_sam
12-15-05, 12:22 PM
OK. First of all it was only a joke. But, does everyone think it CAN'T happen? Maybe the Yankees know something we don't?


It's just that those type of jokes won't get you standing ovations around here.

nahzo
12-15-05, 12:25 PM
OK. First of all it was only a joke. But, does everyone think it CAN'T happen? Maybe the Yankees know something we don't?

Why would any rational player willingly take steriods now, after harsher diciplinary measures have been enacted, and after being in the public eye for an entire year because of steroid related press?

jcan411
12-15-05, 12:29 PM
As I said before, I would rather have a solid reliable everyday player that we can count on rahter than a huge ? with more upside. We have plenty of great hitters, now we need some solid support...remember the late 90's!!!!!

stephsamps
12-15-05, 12:35 PM
OK. First of all it was only a joke. But, does everyone think it CAN'T happen? Maybe the Yankees know something we don't?

My guess is they wouldn't be replacing him with Nomar, who has had many whispers around him as well...

ChinMusic
12-15-05, 12:36 PM
Who is a choke artist?

The Boston Strangler.

whalers
12-15-05, 12:37 PM
I just heard on radio that Nomar would like this to be sorted out by the end of the weekend.

effdamets
12-15-05, 12:39 PM
Why would any rational player willingly take steriods now, after harsher diciplinary measures have been enacted, and after being in the public eye for an entire year because of steroid related press?
Because there are players that think that the masking agents for the detection of the substance will work forever!

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 12:40 PM
I just heard on radio that Nomar would like this to be sorted out by the end of the weekend. Ive heard that too, of course yesterday they were saying that Nomar could have a decision made by today.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 12:41 PM
Ive heard that too, of course yesterday they were saying that Nomar could have a decision made by today.

Well that would technically be before the end of the weekend :)

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 12:43 PM
OK. First of all it was only a joke. But, does everyone think it CAN'T happen? Maybe the Yankees know something we don't?

And it was hilarious too. :2thumbs: Sheesh.

Plus, a while back on this board we hashed through the medical reasons why it's highly unlikely Jason would be taking steroids or any other PED right now.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 12:43 PM
Nomar is "considering" the Yanks. If he goes elsewhere, shame on the Yanks for not getting it done. It's not as if the Yanks have been on a spending spree and have limited funds available. There is wise spending and then there is foolish thrift. No one is saying the Yanks need to overspend either. It's time for Cashman to show his worth.

Ditto Dotel. Cashman saying that he's interested in him but doesn't like the Yanks chances of signing him because too many other teams are interested in him is a defeatist attitude the Yanks don't need when trying to land desired players.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 12:45 PM
Nomar is "considering" the Yanks. If he goes elsewhere, shame on the Yanks for not getting it done. It's not as if the Yanks have been on a spending spree and have limited funds available. There is wise spending and then there is foolish thrift.

Ditto Dotel. Cashman saying that he's interested in him but doesn't like the Yanks chances of signing him because too many other teams are interested in him is a defeatist attitude the Yanks don't need when trying to land desired players.

Hopefully George talked to Nomar. I don't trust this cashman guy signing players

Mark19
12-15-05, 12:46 PM
I think Nomar really wants to be on the west coast. He wouldn't even entertain an offer from Pittsburgh and almost went to San Diego before a deal fell through. Considering his options include outfield duty in Houston and LA, 1B/DH duty in New York might not be that appealing.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 12:46 PM
Hopefully George talked to Nomar. I don't trust this cashman guy signing players

Are you being facetious knowing how I feel or are you in agreement with me on this?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 12:47 PM
Are you being facetious knowing how I feel or are you in agreement with me on this?

No I really hope George contacted him, cause Cashman is a tool

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 12:48 PM
Nomar is "considering" the Yanks. If he goes elsewhere, shame on the Yanks for not getting it done. It's not as if the Yanks have been on a spending spree and have limited funds available. There is wise spending and then there is foolish thrift.I'm not sure about that. If the Dodgers, say, offer him a 3/21 deal, then it would be foolish to match that or do better just to have Nomar in pinstripes.

Mark19
12-15-05, 12:49 PM
Nomar is "considering" the Yanks. If he goes elsewhere, shame on the Yanks for not getting it done. It's not as if the Yanks have been on a spending spree and have limited funds available. There is wise spending and then there is foolish thrift. No one is saying the Yanks need to overspend either. It's time for Cashman to show his worth.

Ditto Dotel. Cashman saying that he's interested in him but doesn't like the Yanks chances of signing him because too many other teams are interested in him is a defeatist attitude the Yanks don't need when trying to land desired players.

I agree, between Myers, Farnsworth, Matsui and Stinnett, we've only added $14 million in payroll (or less than Kevin Brown). We can afford to offer Nomar a Karsay-sized payday.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 12:49 PM
No I really hope George contacted him, cause Cashman is a tool

What Cashman said about signing Dotel (in my prior post) is very telling about his "competence." I'll have to find the quote.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 12:52 PM
I'm not sure about that. If the Dodgers, say, offer him a 3/21 deal, then it would be foolish to match that or do better just to have Nomar in pinstripes.

It's about time the Yanks say "I want player X" and get player X. Overspending isn't the only method. Otherwise the Yanks might as well make me the GM so I could keep whimpering, "But he wanted to play elsewhere."

flymick24
12-15-05, 12:52 PM
Nomar is "considering" the Yanks. If he goes elsewhere, shame on the Yanks for not getting it done. It's not as if the Yanks have been on a spending spree and have limited funds available. There is wise spending and then there is foolish thrift. No one is saying the Yanks need to overspend either. It's time for Cashman to show his worth.

Ditto Dotel. Cashman saying that he's interested in him but doesn't like the Yanks chances of signing him because too many other teams are interested in him is a defeatist attitude the Yanks don't need when trying to land desired players.

in all honesty, if the players don't have any genuine interest in the yankees and simply state that they are "considering" the yankees just to drive up the price, there's very little that cashman or evern george can do about it (i.e. brian giles, bj ryan.)

i think in the case of nomar, there is a real interest on his part to play for us simply because a tiny portion of him probably wants to stick it to boston

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 12:54 PM
It's about time the Yanks say "I want player X" and get player X. Overspending isn't the only method. Otherwise the Yanks might as well make me the GM so I could keep whimpering, "But he wanted to play elsewhere."


:clap:

flymick24
12-15-05, 12:55 PM
It's about time the Yanks say "I want player X" and get player X. Overspending isn't the only method. Otherwise the Yanks might as well make me the GM so I could keep whimpering, "But he wanted to play elsewhere."

not everyone wants to play for the yankees. some players just don't like the pressure that putting on the pinstripes entails.

how can you argue with that? in those cases, money really doesn't matter.

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 12:57 PM
Nomar will sign with the Yankees.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 12:58 PM
not everyone wants to play for the yankees. some players just don't like the pressure that putting on the pinstripes entails.

how can you argue with that? in those cases, money really doesn't matter.

You can't argue with that, unless you make reference to the money we give our players, the chance to go to the playoffs every season, playing for the greatest franchise in sports history etc.

Jasbro
12-15-05, 12:58 PM
Maybe the Yankees know something we don't?

Don't worry, the one thing you can be absolutely sure of is that the Yankees most assuredly know something (I'd even go so far as to say "many things") that you don't.

flymick24
12-15-05, 12:58 PM
Nomar will sign with the Yankees.

from your lips to arn tellem's ears

Stryder2929
12-15-05, 12:59 PM
I'm not sure about that. If the Dodgers, say, offer him a 3/21 deal, then it would be foolish to match that or do better just to have Nomar in pinstripes.



would the dodgers offer nomar anything now that they signed mueller to play third? to to mention, they cant sign BOTH damon and nomar can they?

Mark19
12-15-05, 12:59 PM
I think we need to make the extra effort, offer more money and court him as aggressively as possible. He knows what New York is all about. If he was afraid of ornery fans with high expectations, he wouldn't have re-upped with the Cubs last season.

Also, if we snag Nomar we can force the Dodgers to take Damon very seriously.

We need to remove that caveman from consideration and insist that the FO get more creative about CF.

mbn007
12-15-05, 12:59 PM
5 outs actually. But to be fair, it was lose lose. If he took Pedro out and lost, he would've been killed. He had no chance

Personally, I think if he removed Pedro, and lost, the heat would have been worse. He actually did the better option, IMO.

Still lost, and got blamed, but probably did the right thing.

Jace
12-15-05, 01:00 PM
Nomar is "considering" the Yanks. If he goes elsewhere, shame on the Yanks for not getting it done. It's not as if the Yanks have been on a spending spree and have limited funds available. There is wise spending and then there is foolish thrift. No one is saying the Yanks need to overspend either. It's time for Cashman to show his worth.

Ditto Dotel. Cashman saying that he's interested in him but doesn't like the Yanks chances of signing him because too many other teams are interested in him is a defeatist attitude the Yanks don't need when trying to land desired players.

I hope Cash figures out a way to sign Nomar, but there are considerations other than money. We can't offer him a 3B, SS, or 2B position (which he might want to prove he can play to drive his value up or just because he likes playing them) and we can't offer him the west coast. Sometimes there is nothing anyone can do about this and its not a reason to get on/fire Cashman.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:01 PM
You can't argue with that, unless you make reference to the money we give our players, the chance to go to the playoffs every season, playing for the greatest franchise in sports history etc.

even takin those things into consideration, one has to realize that some players prefer comfortability over all those things. giles is a prime example of that.

and in the case of bj ryan, he received a ridiculous contract which is the reliever's contract equivalent of kevin brown's old contract. when you receive money like that, you can convince yourself that the jays are just as good as the yankees.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:02 PM
not everyone wants to play for the yankees. some players just don't like the pressure that putting on the pinstripes entails.

how can you argue with that? in those cases, money really doesn't matter.

I might agree with you to an extent, but if the Yanks are only going to land players who are enamored with NY, then they are going to be in deep trouble. Cashman's job is to recognize the team's needs and do whatever it takes (not only dollar-wise) to land the player he desires, regardless of that player's initial preferences. Does Coke stop advertising to a certain market segment because they happen to prefer Pepsi, throw their hands up and say, "There's nothing we can do to get them on our side?"

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 01:03 PM
from your lips to arn tellem's ears

The deal will be announced within the next 24 hours or so.

mbn007
12-15-05, 01:03 PM
It is rumored that LA wants him as their LF, now that Bradley is gone and Drew is moving to center, so LA is still very much in the picture
I can't believe that LA wants Drew in CF. Leave him in RF, where he has less ground to cover, and maybe less chance of another injury.

That's why I think the Dodgers are in the Damon bidding. Damon in CF, Drew in RF.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:03 PM
I think we need to make the extra effort, offer more money and court him as aggressively as possible. He knows what New York is all about. If he was afraid of ornery fans with high expectations, he wouldn't have re-upped with the Cubs last season.

Also, if we snag Nomar we can force the Dodgers to take Damon very seriously.

We need to remove that caveman from consideration and insist that the FO get more creative about CF.

i think the yankees are being as aggressive as they can be. having torre call him is pretty huge. the only other thing i can see topping that is george calling him, but i highly doubt that when it comes to decision-making time, a call from george will tip the scales for nomar in the yankees' favor.

sometimes, you just do all that you can and sit back and wait. times are changing, and not everyone wants to be a yankee anymore.

Wheat
12-15-05, 01:04 PM
Is there any possibility that this phantom 4th team could be the Red Sox?

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 01:04 PM
and in the case of bj ryan, he received a ridiculous contract which is the reliever's contract equivalent of kevin brown's old contract. when you receive money like that, you can convince yourself that the jays are just as good as the yankees. I think that is the bottom line though, when you get money like that you will pretty much play in the Alaskan Midnight Softball game. It comes down to money most cases, if you knock a guy out with "an offer he can't refuse" he'll play for you.

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 01:04 PM
It's about time the Yanks say "I want player X" and get player X. Overspending isn't the only method. Otherwise the Yanks might as well make me the GM so I could keep whimpering, "But he wanted to play elsewhere."
Come on, Dooley. That's ridiculous.

Some guys just don't want to play in the Bronx or the East Coast -- Brian Giles comes to mind. Or they prefer to play for another team that has a position open they find more to their liking -- such as BJ Ryan signing with Toronto to be their closer (the insane contract he got didn't hurt either).

All the positives of being a Yankee won't sway someone whose priorities are different.

(EDIT: The Yankees targeted and signed Farnsworth and Myers. Just because they're not marquee players doesn't mean they won't be productive members of the 2006 Yankees.)

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 01:06 PM
Does Coke stop advertising to a certain market segment because they happen to prefer Pepsi, throw their hands up and say, "There's nothing we can do to get them on our side?"
In the short term, yes, if it's completely ineffective to market to them.

Jace
12-15-05, 01:07 PM
Is there any possibility that this phantom 4th team could be the Red Sox?

That team is supposed to be the Dodgers, but I really doubt the Sox aren't involved at all.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:07 PM
I might agree with you to an extent, but if the Yanks are only going to land players who are enamored with NY, then they are going to be in deep trouble. Cashman's job is to recognize the team's needs and do whatever it takes (not only dollar-wise) to land the player he desires, regardless of that player's initial preferences. Does Coke stop advertising to a certain market segment because they happen to prefer Pepsi, throw their hands up and say, "There's nothing we can do to get them on our side?"

what makes you think that just because a FA doesn't sign with us, it automatically means that the yankees didn't do enough? as i said in a previous post, sometimes you do all that you can do and have to sit back and wait. if giles wants to play phone tag with torre and doesn't address playing in NY with his own lips and has his agent do all the talking, what can you do? we put forth the best effort and came up short.

RobbiMan
12-15-05, 01:08 PM
Nomar will sign with the Yankees.



The deal will be announced within the next 24 hours or so.


Care to elaborate?

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 01:08 PM
Care to elaborate?
John has his sources.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:09 PM
The bottom line, like Rhodey said, is that George needs to step in if this continues. If Nomar signs elsewhere, GS has every right to question Cashman's abilities. I guarantee that if Cashman desires Damon and George steps in because of Cashman's inefficiencies since his "autonomy" kicked in, that the Yanks will land Damon to a contract similar to what the Sox are offering.

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 01:09 PM
Care to elaborate?

I'll be happy to tomorrow.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:09 PM
Care to elaborate?

it's general speculation, but i admire his optimism

Stryder2929
12-15-05, 01:12 PM
I'll be happy to tomorrow.
please dont make posts like that without any evidence to suggest it. If it was anyone else who may not have been as well known on the forums everyone would be chastizing them right now

RobbiMan
12-15-05, 01:14 PM
John has his sources.

Miss Cleo?

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:15 PM
what makes you think that just because a FA doesn't sign with us, it automatically means that the yankees didn't do enough? as i said in a previous post, sometimes you do all that you can do and have to sit back and wait. if giles wants to play phone tag with torre and doesn't address playing in NY with his own lips and has his agent do all the talking, what can you do? we put forth the best effort and came up short.

A person success is judged by what he/she did or couldn't do in the business world. Where I work, our salesmen are aware that our competitor's system has some advantages over ours and vice versa. Some potential clients are adamant about going with our competitor because their advantages better suit their needs. That doesn't stop our salesman from trying to sell OUR advantages. The salesmen who have become rich are able to do that. The one's who come crying home that there was nothing they could do to convince the customer otherwise either struggle financially or are eventually replaced.

There has to come a time where Cashman should be held responsible for not landing players he wanted regardless of the reason.

wileedog
12-15-05, 01:15 PM
I might agree with you to an extent, but if the Yanks are only going to land players who are enamored with NY, then they are going to be in deep trouble. Cashman's job is to recognize the team's needs and do whatever it takes (not only dollar-wise) to land the player he desires, regardless of that player's initial preferences.
Like what?

Move the team to San Diego?


Does Coke stop advertising to a certain market segment because they happen to prefer Pepsi, throw their hands up and say, "There's nothing we can do to get them on our side?"

Yes, I'm sure there are certainly plenty of demographics they don't chase nearly as aggressively, because they are not likely to drink Coke no matter how many advertising dollars you throw at them.

This idea that Cashman "must get his man" is silly. Ultimately its the players who make the decision where to play, and often the only way to convince them otherwise is overbid on them - which gets you mediocre $40M pitchers who are 'miserable' here (alledgedly).

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 01:17 PM
please dont make posts like that without any evidence to suggest it. If it was anyone else who may not have been as well known on the forums everyone would be chastizing them right now

Let me know if it turns out that I was wrong.

Stryder2929
12-15-05, 01:19 PM
Let me know if it turns out that I was wrong.


If you are right i send u a big hug, if you are wrong i castrate you, deal?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 01:19 PM
Let me know if it turns out that I was wrong.

Didn't you say the Yankees were going to be contracted with the Twins last year?

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:20 PM
Like what?

Move the team to San Diego?



Yes, I'm sure there are certainly plenty of demographics they don't chase nearly as aggressively, because they are not likely to drink Coke no matter how many advertising dollars you throw at them.

This idea that Cashman "must get his man" is silly. Ultimately its the players who make the decision where to play, and often the only way to convince them otherwise is overbid on them - which gets you mediocre $40M pitchers who are 'miserable' here (alledgedly).

If teams where to resign themselves to those beliefs, then their GM's would be worth less than 6 figures and would basically be bean counters.

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 01:21 PM
Miss Cleo?
I value my life. My lips are sealed.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:21 PM
If JDPNYY, aka, Granomarma says it's happening, then we can take it to the bank.

Mark19
12-15-05, 01:22 PM
If JDPNYY, aka, Granomarma says it's happening, then we can take it to the bank.

If it doesn't happen, he has to send a Valentine's Day Kiss-o-Gram to Schmoopie Schilling.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:22 PM
A person success is judged by what he/she did or couldn't do in the business world. Where I work, our salesmen are aware that our competitor's system has some advantages over ours and vice versa. Some potential clients are adamant about going with our competitor because their advantages better suit them. That doesn't stop our salesman from trying to sell OUR advantages. The salesmen who have become rich are able to do that. The one's who come crying home that there was nothing they could do to convince the customer otherwise either struggle financially or are eventually replaced.

There has to come a time where Cashman should be held responsible for not landing players he wanted regardless of the reason.

i work in advertising and understand that if you want to sell a product enough to someone, you can eventually get it done.

but we're talking about baseball players here, not products. and in this market, you have to realize that baseball players, being human, will have their own reasons for not wanting to do certain things.

i will judge cashman based on how well the 2006 yankees perform. if they win it all, in spite of not signing giles or ryan, i will give him that much more credit. to judge him now, in december, for not being able to sign certain people is not giving him a fair wrap because we don't always know if those signings will benefit the team until they start playing the games.

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 01:23 PM
Didn't you say the Yankees were going to be contracted with the Twins last year?

That I never said. But please don't forget that it was me that said that the White Sox would not win the Central Division last year. Enough said.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:23 PM
If it doesn't happen, he has to send a Valentine's Day Kiss-o-Gram to Schmoopie Schilling.

:lol:

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 01:24 PM
That I never said. But please don't forget that it was me that said that the White Sox would not win the Central Division last year. Enough said.

I believe you also said Napoleon Dynamite would win the Academy Award for best adapted screen play

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 01:25 PM
I believe you also said Napoleon Dynamite would win the Academy Award for best adapted screen play

It did, didn't it?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 01:26 PM
It did, didn't it?

It won Best Movie featuring a man named Pedro

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 01:26 PM
I might agree with you to an extent, but if the Yanks are only going to land players who are enamored with NY, then they are going to be in deep trouble. Cashman's job is to recognize the team's needs and do whatever it takes (not only dollar-wise) to land the player he desires, regardless of that player's initial preferences. Does Coke stop advertising to a certain market segment because they happen to prefer Pepsi, throw their hands up and say, "There's nothing we can do to get them on our side?"


I believe Joe Torre has called more FA's this off season then ever before.

The Dynasty
12-15-05, 01:26 PM
Let me know if it turns out that I was wrong.

Heck...I'll believe you man. If anything, it's making my day a little brighter already.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:27 PM
but we're talking about baseball players here, not products. and in this market, you have to realize that baseball players, being human, will have their own reasons for not wanting to do certain things.



What about selling that product to those humans even if they have an initial aversion to them? Good salespeople, which GM's especially are this time of year, can do just that.

Jasbro
12-15-05, 01:27 PM
The bottom line, like Rhodey said, is that George needs to step in if this continues. If Nomar signs elsewhere, GS has every right to question Cashman's abilities. I guarantee that if Cashman desires Damon and George steps in because of Cashman's inefficiencies since his "autonomy" kicked in, that the Yanks will land Damon to a contract similar to what the Sox are offering.

If what continues? What inefficiencies?

Why are you so convinced that it is possible for the Yankees to snare any FA that may be available, regardless of the geographical or positional desires of that player?

Mark19
12-15-05, 01:28 PM
I believe Joe Torre has called more FA's this off season then ever before.

The man even called Scott Eyre. What's next, a coutesy call to Russ Johnson?

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:30 PM
What about selling that product to those humans even if they have an initial aversion to them? Good salespeople, which GM's especially are this time of year, can do just that.

buying something based on a salesperson's pitch has far less ramifications than signing with a team for a number of years based on a GM's pitch. in the latter situation, a player will make sure that he's happy before signing anywhere (whether that be getting the most money or playing in a comfortable locale.)

to compare the two is ridiculous.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:31 PM
If what continues? What inefficiencies?

Why are you so convinced that it is possible for the Yankees to snare any FA that may be available, regardless of the geographical or positional desires of that player?

I never said they can snare any FA they want, but a succesful GM will land players who intially have other wishes, even if it takes locking them in a room till it's done. Hell, you and I could land a Bernie Williams, it's the tougher players - the ones who also fill a crucial need - that GM's who command good money get paid for.

Jasbro
12-15-05, 01:32 PM
i work in advertising and understand that if you want to sell a product enough to someone, you can eventually get it done.

but we're talking about baseball players here, not products. and in this market, you have to realize that baseball players, being human, will have their own reasons for not wanting to do certain things.



Further, as you probably also know, while it may be possible to eventually sell just about anything to a representative group of people, no amount of salesmanship or advertising can be guaranteed to convince one particular person to buy something, especially if that person has other viable options and has a basic aversion to your particular product or service.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:33 PM
buying something based on a salesperson's pitch has far less ramifications than signing with a team for a number of years based on a GM's pitch. in the latter situation, a player will make sure that he's happy before signing anywhere (whether that be getting the most money or playing in a comfortable locale.)

to compare the two are ridiculous.

I hope you don't throw your hands up so easily in your vocation. I'll bet that you don't or else you'd be telling me you're typing from home in between looking at the classifieds.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:34 PM
I never said they can snare any FA they want, but a succesful GM will land players who intially have other wishes, even if it takes locking them in a room till it's done. Hell, you and I could land a Bernie Williams, it's the tougher players - the ones who also fill a crucial need - that GM's who command good money get paid for.

you make baseball players out to be mindless zombies who can be swayed in a certain direction by a certain amount of coaxing

Mark19
12-15-05, 01:34 PM
I never said they can snare any FA they want, but a succesful GM will land players who intially have other wishes, even if it takes locking them in a room till it's done. Hell, you and I could land a Bernie Williams, it's the tougher players - the ones who also fill a crucial need - that GM's who command good money get paid for.

Heck, during Carl-o-palooza we wined and dined his entire family, took them to Broadway and even had him share a nice meal with Reggie and Yogi.

effdamets
12-15-05, 01:35 PM
I never said they can snare any FA they want, but a succesful GM will land players who intially have other wishes, even if it takes locking them in a room till it's done. Hell, you and I could land a Bernie Williams, it's the tougher players - the ones who also fill a crucial need - that GM's who command good money get paid for.
I disagree with this. How on earth would anyone from the east have landed Brian Giles? What could anyone have said to him to 'make' him change his mind to come to the north east, considering that he has been saying for a number of years that he didn't want to?

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:35 PM
I hope you don't throw your hands up so easily in your vocation. I'll bet that you don't or else you'd be telling me you're typing from home in between looking at the classifieds.

lesson 1: humans are not commodities.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:35 PM
Further, as you probably also know, while it may be possible to eventually sell just about anything to a representative group of people, no amount of salesmanship or advertising can be guaranteed to convince one particular person to buy something, especially if that person has other viable options and has a basic aversion to your particular product or service.

If the Yanks don't win in 2006 because they didn't fill certain needs with certain players should we dismiss it as "players didn't want to come to NY so it's no fault of Cashman's?"

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:37 PM
If the Yanks don't win in 2006 because they didn't fill certain needs with certain players should we dismiss it as "players didn't want to come to NY so it's no fault of Cashman's?"

no, if the 2006 yankees fail, then you can blame cashman for not putting together a winning team. but don't confuse that with him not being able to sign players like giles and ryan, because those signings mean nothing right now, before 1 game has been played.

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 01:37 PM
I hope you don't throw your hands up so easily in your vocation. I'll bet that you don't or else you'd be telling me you're typing from home in between looking at the classifieds.


DOOLEY...Cashman has been in negotiations with Nomar's agent and it is said that the Yankees have extended the best offer.

Joe Torre AND Giambi have called Nomar.

What else?

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 01:37 PM
What about selling that product to those humans even if they have an initial aversion to them? Good salespeople, which GM's especially are this time of year, can do just that.
Not 100% of the time.

I've made plenty of buying decisions at work -- everything from spot media buys to enterprise-level software. And I can't tell you how many good salespeople I said "no" to simply because the product/service they were pitching just wasn't the right thing for my company or situation.

Now draw the analogy to the Yankees as salespeople going all out & pitching their team to a particular player. Sometimes that player has his own reasons for finding a better fit elsewhere and priorities that cannot be altered by mere salesmanship.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:38 PM
I disagree with this. How on earth would anyone from the east have landed Brian Giles? What could anyone have said to him to 'make' him change his mind to come to the north east, considering that he has been saying for a number of years that he didn't want to?

The person who would have landed Giles would be a star and worth every penny of his salary. It wouldn't be the first time the "impossible" was acheived.

I'd say that a good majority of the players in the league have an aversion to living in the NY area, because they are either country boys or don't want to deal with the pressure. It's selling the Yankees that's the key and where the Yanks have had success in the past.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:39 PM
Not 100% of the time.

I've made plenty of buying decisions at work -- everything from spot media buys to enterprise-level software. And I can't tell you how many good salespeople I said "no" to simply because the product/service they were pitching just wasn't the right thing for my company or situation.

Now draw the analogy to the Yankees as salespeople going all out & pitching their team to a particular player. Sometimes that player has his own reasons for finding a better fit elsewhere and priorities that cannot be altered by mere salesmanship.

100% of the time would be virtually impossible, but I have salespeople that would blow your mind and who have acheived what others would consider "the impossible."

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:39 PM
The person who would have landed Giles would be a star and worth every penny of his salary. It wouldn't be the first time the "impossible" was acheived.

I'd say that a good majority of the players in the league have an aversion to living in the NY area, because they are either country boys or don't want to deal with the pressure. It's selling the Yankees that's the key and where the Yanks have had success in the past.

who have the yankees signed who initially had no inteniton of playing in NY? and if you can come up with a few names, did those signings contribute to championships? if not, how can you call those signings "sucesses"?

BJG
12-15-05, 01:40 PM
I never said they can snare any FA they want, but a succesful GM will land players who intially have other wishes, even if it takes locking them in a room till it's done. Hell, you and I could land a Bernie Williams, it's the tougher players - the ones who also fill a crucial need - that GM's who command good money get paid for.

That's why the Braves cash in on free agents every year!

Oh. Wait.

Dooley, this entire theory seems to be a load of bs to me. Players go where the money is, where they can play the most, where their wife wants to go, and so on and so forth. Do they occassionally need to have certain issues addressed? Sure, but Mike Mussina was already interested in the Yankees and their money, for example, when it came time to convince him that he would like living in Westchester. I think you can address lifestyle concerns if the player already wants your money and wants to be on your team. I think you can adress baseball misconceptions (i.e. Schilling thinking he would give up too many homeruns in Fenway) if the player already wants your money and already wants to be on your team. If the player doesn't want your money, if the player doesn't think he will get enough playing time or doesn't want to play out of position or thinks your team is poorly run and so on, then no one can make the impossible happen.

Succesful front offices (and I say front offices as a whole, because the Yankees are still fractured in terms of major league and minor league responsibilities) are the ones who can adjust to and plan for the whims of the market...the ones who have players in the system to work with if you don't sign every free agent you want.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:40 PM
DOOLEY...Cashman has been in negotiations with Nomar's agent and it is said that the Yankees have extended the best offer.

Joe Torre AND Giambi have called Nomar.

What else?

Make sure they get him? Close the deal?

effdamets
12-15-05, 01:40 PM
Not 100% of the time.

I've made plenty of buying decisions at work -- everything from spot media buys to enterprise-level software. And I can't tell you how many good salespeople I said "no" to simply because the product/service they were pitching just wasn't the right thing for my company or situation.

Now draw the analogy to the Yankees as salespeople going all out & pitching their team to a particular player. Sometimes that player has his own reasons for finding a better fit elsewhere and priorities that cannot be altered by mere salesmanship.
Yeah.

The gas company calls me EVERYDAY to try to convince me to change over from oil heat.... 17 years. I've been able to say no everyday.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:40 PM
100% of the time would be virtually impossible, but I have salespeople that would blow your mind and who have acheived what others would consider "the impossible."

so just because your friends do it in marketing autmatically means that cashman can sign any player in MLB if he reallllly realllllly wanted to?

Jace
12-15-05, 01:41 PM
The person who would have landed Giles would be a star and worth every penny of his salary.


Nobody did, so I guess noone is a star and worth their money.

PittsburghYankeeFan
12-15-05, 01:42 PM
who have the yankees signed who initially had no inteniton of playing in NY?

(1) Raul Mondesi
(2) Kenny Lofton
(3) Sterling Hitchcock


and the list goes on....

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:42 PM
Make sure they get him? Close the deal?

these are relative terms. what more can cashman speifically do?

i thnk he's done all that he can. now we wait to see where nomar signs. and if he signs elsewhere, then you need to realize that there's nothing that could have been done to change the outcome.

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 01:42 PM
Make sure they get him? Close the deal?


How? What do you do? And how can you possibly know that Cashman and Co. didn't do all they could w/o wasting money?

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:43 PM
(1) Raul Mondesi
(2) Kenny Lofton
(3) Sterling Hitchcock


and the list goes on....

answer the other questions in my post.

effdamets
12-15-05, 01:44 PM
The person who would have landed Giles would be a star and worth every penny of his salary. It wouldn't be the first time the "impossible" was acheived.

I'd say that a good majority of the players in the league have an aversion to living in the NY area, because they are either country boys or don't want to deal with the pressure. It's selling the Yankees that's the key and where the Yanks have had success in the past.
I really don't think it has anything to do with "living" in NY, because a player can live in Jersey or in Westchester. I think Giles didn't want to be hounded and scrutinized by all the media in NY. He didn't want to be booed if he went into an 0-20 slump or didn't produce hits in the clutch. And there are a lot of players that don't want be placed into that situation. Which is perfectly fine by me. We've had way too many Ed Whitson's....

gdn
12-15-05, 01:44 PM
Make sure they get him? Close the deal?Well, they can't force him to say yes. They can do their best - make their best offer and then he has to decide.

jpao89
12-15-05, 01:44 PM
The bottom line, like Rhodey said, is that George needs to step in if this continues. If Nomar signs elsewhere, GS has every right to question Cashman's abilities. I guarantee that if Cashman desires Damon and George steps in because of Cashman's inefficiencies since his "autonomy" kicked in, that the Yanks will land Damon to a contract similar to what the Sox are offering.

George needs to step in? Yes, yes, that is the answer, because George is just such a special baseball mind. He has such a great history of making rational decisions based upon his baseball acumen acquired while he was building ships.

On second thought, how about George signs the checks and lets his baseball people be baseball people rather than imaginary objects he can blame when his stupid decisions blow up in his face. Cashman seems to, finally, be in control. He is taking a long view in the moves he is making (and more importantly not making) this off season. That may mean, gulp, the Yankees don't make the playoffs next year. Or, it may mean that they have to rely on their farm system to fill some holes.

The Yankees need to re-fill their farm system with some ML ready talent. Now, that doesn't mean that they will have a team full of homegrowns, but a farm system having some ML ready guys (AAA) allows the Yankees to make some trades. Right now, all the talent is at the lower levels(A and AA) and needs to develop. ML ready talent has more trade value.

Stryder2929
12-15-05, 01:44 PM
this thread is about nomar, everyone shut up unless u have something nomarish to say

Jace
12-15-05, 01:44 PM
answer the other questions in my post.

He was being sarcastic about how wooing players and thus being "a star" doesn't always turn out so great, look at the players he listed.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:45 PM
who have the yankees signed who initially had no inteniton of playing in NY? and if you can come up with a few names, did those signings contribute to championships? if not, how can you call those signings "sucesses"?

I'll give you off the top of my head and I'm sure I can list more throughout their history, but this isn't about my memory. Mike Mussina. The Yanks have made the playoffs every year since. Championships aren't how you gauge success because the odds are considerable against any team from winning it all.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:46 PM
(1) Raul Mondesi
(2) Kenny Lofton
(3) Sterling Hitchcock


and the list goes on....

none of these players have gone to the lengths of having NTCs to NY teams. and besides, mondesi was traded for, he didn't sign as a FA.



<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 01:46 PM
these are relative terms. what more can cashman speifically do?

i thnk he's done all that he can. now we wait to see where nomar signs. and if he signs elsewhere, then you need to realize that there's nothing that could have been done to change the outcome.

What if Cashman is low-balling him as Cashman the Hero tends to do these days?

jpao89
12-15-05, 01:48 PM
What if Cashman is low-balling him as Cashman the Hero tends to do these days?

Right, because it is so much better to overpay, which the Yankees NEVER ever do.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:48 PM
I'll give you off the top of my head and I'm sure I can list more throughout their history, but this isn't about my memory. Mike Mussina. The Yanks have made the playoffs every year since. Championships aren't how you gauge success because the odds are considerable against any team from winning it all.

i've read stories that mussina had every intention of signing with the yankees, even before torre made his reruitikng call. apparently, once he hit free agency, he called his agent and told him, "i'm signing with the yankees, get a deal done" and then retired to his penn home.

and it's not as if mike mussina had a NTC to NY, as giles did. plus, mussina specifically said that he wanted to stay on the east coast, which helped in the yankees negotiations.

Jace
12-15-05, 01:48 PM
Championships aren't how you gauge success because the odds are considerable against any team from winning it all.

Hey, that sounds like a little bit of a contradiction with your other theory.

Signing players that have no intention of signing with you isn't how you gauge success because the odds are considerably against you pulling it off, no matter how well you make your pitch.

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 01:49 PM
What if Cashman is low-balling him as Cashman the Hero tends to do these days?
Examples, please.

("Low-balling" does not mean refusing to beat ridiculous contracts -- like, for example, NOT offering BJ Ryan 5/50.)

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 01:50 PM
i've read stories that mussina had every intention of signing with the yankees, even before torre made his reruitikng call. apparently, once he hit free agency, he called his agent and told him, "i'm signing with the yankees, get a deal done" and then retired to his penn home.


He did sign very quickly. I don't even think he negotiated with another team. Did he? (other then the O's)

Jace
12-15-05, 01:50 PM
Hey, that sounds like a little bit of a contradiction with your other theory.

Signing players that have no intention of signing with you isn't how you gauge success because the odds are considerably against you pulling it off, no matter how well you make your pitch.

Its the same thing. You are saying results results results are everything, without looking at what is going into it. I could say "score more runs than the other team" but you need to do a lot of things to achieve that result, its not like a brilliant GM just flips a switch and it happens. Its pretty similar with championships.

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:51 PM
He did sign very quickly. I don't even think he negotiated with another team. Did he? (other then the O's)

i think the mets were minor contenders, but he pretty much had his mind set on the yankees.

BJG
12-15-05, 01:51 PM
I'll give you off the top of my head and I'm sure I can list more throughout their history, but this isn't about my memory. Mike Mussina. The Yanks have made the playoffs every year since. Championships aren't how you gauge success because the odds are considerable against any team from winning it all.

Mussina wanted to come to the Yankees, but...

buts are far from impossible to address. If a player already wants what you are offering BUT has a small concern, you can always address that concern. If a player is absolutely dead set against the idea (no ifs, ands or buts about it) what magic person makes that work at all, let alone on a regular basis like you are claiming 'good gms' do? Name the GM?

Jasbro
12-15-05, 01:52 PM
I never said they can snare any FA they want, but a succesful GM will land players who intially have other wishes, even if it takes locking them in a room till it's done. Hell, you and I could land a Bernie Williams, it's the tougher players - the ones who also fill a crucial need - that GM's who command good money get paid for.

But you have to understand that sometimes FAs make decisions based on factors that cannot be overcome by salesmanship.

And you also have to understand that in a lean FA market, it is a sellers market for the players -- they will have the ability to be very selective regarding their role, the length of the contract, and the dollars involved.

If a reliever wants to be a closer and is offered that by someone, no amount of salesmanship will likely overcome that desire.

If a player wants to remain in the city he was raised in, and is willing to take less money than what is offered by other cities, no amount of salesmanship will likely overcome that desire.

When the pickings are slim and your needs are very specific, sometimes you don't always get your way no matter how hard you try. And that is not necessarily anybody's fault.

effdamets
12-15-05, 01:54 PM
But you have to understand that sometimes FAs make decisions based on factors that cannot be overcome by salesmanship.

And you also have to understand that in a lean FA market, it is a sellers market for the players -- they will have the ability to be very selective regarding their role, the length of the contract, and the dollars involved.

If a reliever wants to be a closer and is offered that by someone, no amount of salesmanship will likely overcome that desire.

If a player wants to remain in the city he was raised in, and is willing to take less money than what is offered by other cities, no amount of salesmanship will likely overcome that desire.

When the pickings are slim and your needs are very specific, sometimes you don't always get your way no matter how hard you try. And that is not necessarily anybody's fault.
Excellent post!

flymick24
12-15-05, 01:56 PM
Its the same thing. You are saying results results results are everything, without looking at what is going into it. I could say "score more runs than the other team" but you need to do a lot of things to achieve that result, its not like a brilliant GM just flips a switch and it happens. Its pretty similar with championships.

and with FA signings.

jpao89
12-15-05, 01:56 PM
What if Cashman is low-balling him as Cashman the Hero tends to do these days?

Seriously, what would constitute "low balling?" Is Nomar a "must have?" If so, what makes him a "must have?" Just so we can beat the Mets on the back pages. Should the Yankees be making moves just to make moves?

Nomar should be valued by the Yankees for the role he will play on the team and in accordance with the market. You don't pay Nomar starting allstar SS money because 1) he is not that player anymore; and 2) won't be that player on the Yankees. If that means some other team makes the mistake of giving him that kind of money, fine, let them. Why should the Yankees follow the other teams over the cliff?

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 01:58 PM
When the pickings are slim and your needs are very specific, sometimes you don't always get your way no matter how hard you try. And that is not necessarily anybody's fault.
And...if Cashman spends too much time wooing a player who has no intention of coming to the Bronx, that's time he's NOT spending talking to other GMs or agents.

I realize Cashman isn't working alone, but he doesn't have unlimited staff and sometimes, just like in business, the prospect wants to speak to the guy/gal in charge.

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 02:00 PM
Seriously, what would constitute "low balling?" Is Nomar a "must have?" If so, what makes him a "must have?" Just so we can beat the Mets on the back pages. Should the Yankees be making moves just to make moves?

Nomar should be valued by the Yankees for the role he will play on the team and in accordance with the market. You don't pay Nomar starting allstar SS money because 1) he is not that player anymore; and 2) won't be that player on the Yankees. If that means some other team makes the mistake of giving him that kind of money, fine, let them. Why should the Yankees follow the other teams over the cliff?

I am actually a little suprised at how hard they are going after Nomar. He is NOT a must have.

If Barry Zito has a big 06 and becomes a FA, HE is who you lock in a room til he signs.

BJG
12-15-05, 02:03 PM
I am actually a little suprised at how hard they are going after Nomar. He is NOT a must have.

If Barry Zito has a big 06 and becomes a FA, HE is who you lock in a room til he signs.

Course, Zito hasn't been anything more than slightly above average for 2 years running now. I'm far from convinced he'll revert to previous form, but even if he does, the last 2 years are a red flag that don't make him a 'must sign'.

Jasbro
12-15-05, 02:04 PM
Seriously, what would constitute "low balling?" Is Nomar a "must have?" If so, what makes him a "must have?" Just so we can beat the Mets on the back pages. Should the Yankees be making moves just to make moves?

Nomar should be valued by the Yankees for the role he will play on the team and in accordance with the market. You don't pay Nomar starting allstar SS money because 1) he is not that player anymore; and 2) won't be that player on the Yankees. If that means some other team makes the mistake of giving him that kind of money, fine, let them. Why should the Yankees follow the other teams over the cliff?

Exactly right. Nomar's value to us is in filling a very specific role, with tremendous offensive upside, at a very reasonable cost if that upside is realized. And the cost has to stay low enough for us to ensure that we have not flushed too much cash down the toilet if that upside is not realized.

Once the cost of acquisition exceeds that threshhold, you have to let the player walk. THAT is what a good GM does. Anybody can throw the most money at someone with the intent of blowing him away. But you don't do that to fill secondary needs. Nomar would be filling a secondary need. So if his cost gets too high, let someone else assume that risk....

BJG
12-15-05, 02:04 PM
What if Cashman is low-balling him as Cashman the Hero tends to do these days?

Who has he lowballed? Or are you trying to say that market value is lowballing?

Offering below market value is lowballing, at which point, your salesmanship argument goes bye bye, because it's about the money.

Really, you seem to be creating a false dilemma here, like Nomar is not only a good option, but he is the last remaining baseball player of any value on the market.

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 02:09 PM
Course, Zito hasn't been anything more than slightly above average for 2 years running now. I'm far from convinced he'll revert to previous form, but even if he does, the last 2 years are a red flag that don't make him a 'must sign'.


He pitched pretty darn good for most of last year. My point in using Zito was as an arbitrary example of someone who the Yanks should use Dooley's mentality with as opposed to Nomar who could come or go.

TheState22
12-15-05, 02:16 PM
for the right price I'd love to have him. With A-Rod and Jeter in starting roles, I could easily see Nomar busting his butt to get some playing time. as with every other player we sign, I don't want to see the Yanks overpay, but I think Nomar could be valuable.

StatenIslandYankee
12-15-05, 02:17 PM
Sign him already

YankeeStripes
12-15-05, 02:18 PM
i am sure they are talking about this a lot on Mike and the Mad Dogg. Is there anyplace on the internet to get M&MD streaming?

BJG
12-15-05, 02:19 PM
He pitched pretty darn good for most of last year. My point in using Zito was as an arbitrary example of someone who the Yanks should use Dooley's mentality with as opposed to Nomar who could come or go.

I understand your point, I was just hoping you would use an example who was actually worthy of it. He's a lefty Paul Byrd the last couple of years.

Espinosa's Glasses
12-15-05, 02:20 PM
^I'll ask my dad what they said when he gets home... 99.9% chance he listened to it all..

but... I bet we can all assume what they said anyway

JDPNYY
12-15-05, 02:20 PM
Sign him already

Don't worry. It'll happen in the next 23 hours or so.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 02:21 PM
Mussina wanted to come to the Yankees, but...



Mussina was sold on living in the NY area. It was his biggest concern.

TheState22
12-15-05, 02:22 PM
btw, how bad does Nomar want to win a World Series?? after being the face of the Red Sox, and leaving just before they finally won it. how bad must that burn on him??? I think he'd be willing to be the Yankees bat boy just to have another shot at a ring.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 02:25 PM
Examples, please.

("Low-balling" does not mean refusing to beat ridiculous contracts -- like, for example, NOT offering BJ Ryan 5/50.)

Sorry too busy with work right now. Also, I don't think I have to provide examples for every one of my posts to prove its valididaty. It's no secret that Cashman is placing a high priority on cutting payroll and is overly concious of doing so. Nomar was supposedly offered 4-6 million by the Yanks according to reports while other teams have offered 6-8. Nomar is worth a hell of a lot more than 4 million

wileedog
12-15-05, 02:32 PM
It's no secret that Cashman is placing a high priority on cutting payroll and is overly concious of doing so. Nomar was supposedly offered 4-6 million by the Yanks according to reports while other teams have offered 6-8. Nomar is worth a hell of a lot more than 4 million
So The Boss tells Cashman to cut payroll and he's supposed to ignore it and bid-away on players anyway?

That sounds like a good long-term strategy for job security.

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 02:38 PM
Sorry too busy with work right now. Also, I don't think I have to provide examples for every one of my posts to prove its valididaty. It's no secret that Cashman is placing a high priority on cutting payroll and is overly concious of doing so. Nomar was supposedly offered 4-6 million by the Yanks according to reports while other teams have offered 6-8. Nomar is worth a hell of a lot more than 4 million
No problem. I have to leave too for the rest of the afternoon, so I'll depart with this...

Placing priority on cutting payroll -- from what looks like an inefficient, if not unsustainable, level of over $200MM per year -- is not necessarily the same thing as low-balling individual FAs. It could mean simply stopping overpays. Or structuring contracts differently.

Therefore, if you accuse Cashman of low-balling, I think that calls for specific examples. And not ones pulled from the middle of a negotiation like Nomar's that's being hashed out partially in public. If it were to be leaked out that Cashman is willing to pay more than the other teams in the running, it'll lead essentially to the Yankees bidding against themselves.

I need data taken AFTER the player signed with someone else. Like, for example, did the Yankees offer Giles below-market money and terms? I know that's not easy information to get, but if you're going to say that the Yankees are losing out on players because Cashman is low-balling them, I really think that requires further details.

NDBoston
12-15-05, 02:43 PM
No problem. I have to leave too for the rest of the afternoon, so I'll depart with this...

Placing priority on cutting payroll -- from what looks like an inefficient, if not unsustainable, level of over $200MM per year -- is not necessarily the same thing as low-balling individual FAs. It could mean simply stopping overpays. Or structuring contracts differently.

Therefore, if you accuse Cashman of low-balling, I think that calls for specific examples. And not ones pulled from the middle of a negotiation like Nomar's that's being hashed out partially in public. If it were to be leaked out that Cashman is willing to pay more than the other teams in the running, it'll lead essentially to the Yankees bidding against themselves.

I need data taken AFTER the player signed with someone else. Like, for example, did the Yankees offer Giles below-market money and terms? I know that's not easy information to get, but if you're going to say that the Yankees are losing out on players because Cashman is low-balling them, I really think that requires further details.

OT-If you're still making decisions for Enterprise Wide Software products....we should talk ;) :lol:

Pakalolo
12-15-05, 02:48 PM
what exactly is nomar supposed to do? play off the bench?

I don't get why they would want him..makes ZERO sense.

stephsamps
12-15-05, 02:53 PM
So I come back from lunch and there are like 3 more pages of stuff, but no news about Nomar?!?!

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 02:54 PM
what exactly is nomar supposed to do? play off the bench?

I don't get why they would want him..makes ZERO sense. Maybe you should read more of the posts before yours instead of just posting something like that and then you wouldn't have that question.

ChrisV82
12-15-05, 02:56 PM
I wonder if we're falling in love with Nomar just because we haven't made any big signings this offseason (besides Farnsworth or whomever). I like Nomar, but if you asked me in October who the Yankees should sign, I doubt he would have been on my radar.

But now he is on my radar so let's marry him and have babies.

Maynerd
12-15-05, 03:00 PM
I really don't think it has anything to do with "living" in NY, because a player can live in Jersey or in Westchester.
Dude, you really need to get out more. Really.

If living in New York is the problem, do you really think that Jersey is the solution?

goin for 27
12-15-05, 03:01 PM
I wonder if we're falling in love with Nomar just because we haven't made any big signings this offseason (besides Farnsworth or whomever). I like Nomar, but if you asked me in October who the Yankees should sign, I doubt he would have been on my radar.

But now he is on my radar so let's marry him and have babies.

So True!!!

It is comical, but if Nomar falls through, there will be a million I didn't want him anyway" and if Damon signs, there will be a whole thread after his press conference that he is clean shaven, looks serious, has an axe to grind, etc. It IS fun though... :lol:

Panamaniac42
12-15-05, 03:04 PM
I'm going out right now, be back at 9...Nomar better be a Yankee by then :)

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 03:11 PM
I wonder if we're falling in love with Nomar just because we haven't made any big signings this offseason (besides Farnsworth or whomever).
Personally I like the idea of going after Nomar because I think he will be relatively inexpensive and could really be one of the sleepers of the year. He could bounce back from his injuries and put up great numbers and if he does that on the Yankees it makes the lineup 8 deep instead of 7 deep and it hopefully could mean the Yankees realize they need a glove in center with an adequate bat(note Bubba is not an adequate bat) and not Johnny Damon.

YankeeStripes
12-15-05, 03:18 PM
ive wanted nomar since last offseason.

Maynerd
12-15-05, 03:22 PM
Personally I like the idea of going after Nomar because I think he will be relatively inexpensive and could really be one of the sleepers of the year. He could bounce back from his injuries and put up great numbers and if he does that on the Yankees it makes the lineup 8 deep instead of 7 deep and it hopefully could mean the Yankees realize they need a glove in center with an adequate bat(note Bubba is not an adequate bat) and not Johnny Damon.
I agree. Nomar could be the solution to a lot of problems. Or, he could explode and spend the year on the DL. But, I think it's worth the risk.

OTOH, Damon is going to take 5 years to bring in, and I'm not sure I want him in 06 and 07, but I'm pretty confident that I want absolutely no part of him in 08, 09, and 10.

If we need to start the season with Bubba, I can deal with it, but I'd be looking for something magic to happen before the trading deadline.

So my vote is YES for Nomar and NO for Damon.

grabick_luca
12-15-05, 03:23 PM
Personally I like the idea of going after Nomar because I think he will be relatively inexpensive and could really be one of the sleepers of the year. He could bounce back from his injuries and put up great numbers and if he does that on the Yankees it makes the lineup 8 deep instead of 7 deep and it hopefully could mean the Yankees realize they need a glove in center with an adequate bat(note Bubba is not an adequate bat) and not Johnny Damon.


I really wouldn't say inexpensive, his agent says there looking for a one year contract worth between $6-8 million. Then again it's fairly decent in this market and it's a one year deal. I would definetly do it if i were the yankees :)

27IsNext
12-15-05, 03:25 PM
Nomar is "considering" the Yanks. If he goes elsewhere, shame on the Yanks for not getting it done. It's not as if the Yanks have been on a spending spree and have limited funds available. There is wise spending and then there is foolish thrift. No one is saying the Yanks need to overspend either. It's time for Cashman to show his worth.

Ditto Dotel. Cashman saying that he's interested in him but doesn't like the Yanks chances of signing him because too many other teams are interested in him is a defeatist attitude the Yanks don't need when trying to land desired players.

Right on cue.

As with Giles, Nomar MAY be using the Yankees for leverage. Personally, I think he has a genuine interest to play here (unlike Giles, who was NEVER coming here, no matter what anyone says), but the fact that he doesn't like media scrutiny leaves cause for concern. If he signs a one-year deal for cheap, the media will likely leave him alone for the most part and pick on their usual victims: A-Rod, Randy, and Giambi if he goes into a prolonged slump. Plus, the Yankees are likely the only team of the four interested in playing him in the infield. I doubt the Dodgers have as big an interest in Nomar now that Mueller is signed, and I don't see the Astros getting into a bidding war over him.

That being said, as others have mentioned, sometimes there are too many intangibles that cannot be overcome. Like Giles, Nomar is reportedly a West Coast guy. And as said, he doesn't like pack of wolves media people like he had to deal with in Boston. Contrary to what you want to believe, GMs cannot waive a magic wand and just make these things go away. There is only so much someone can do as a salesman. Giles is a perfect example of this--he NEVER wanted to come here, had no interest in doing so, and despite recruiting attempts by Torre and Paul O'Neill, nothing could be done to overcome this. And no, George could not have invited him over for tea and changed his mind. (But keep telling yourself he could have.)

Btw, I completely agree on Dotel, but perhaps the Yankees don't see him being completely healthy this season, and want to turn their time and energy elsewhere?

BJG
12-15-05, 03:28 PM
Mussina was sold on living in the NY area. It was his biggest concern.

See, this is where you just don't get it.

Mussina wanted to come to the Yankees, but had to have a concern about living in the area addressed. That concern, however, was a BUT. It was secondary to the money, the working environment, the team, the front office, etc. - all things he had already decided he liked just fine. That is a far cry from being the primary concern (i.e. my wife has demanded that I don't live in NY any more or she'll divorce me).

ryanthe13th
12-15-05, 03:29 PM
If Nomar does not get signed, you can pretty much bank on Damon being in a Yankee uniform. That is what also makes this deal important to me. Someone brought up the point that being 8 deep is a lot better than being 7 deep and that is what it boils down to when signing Garciaparra. If Nomar is in the lineup(which he will be everyday despite reports), then Crosby's offensive production will not hurt the team as much and the bottom of our lineup doesn't look as dreadful.

BJG
12-15-05, 03:32 PM
If Nomar does not get signed, you can pretty much bank on Damon being in a Yankee uniform. That is what also makes this deal important to me. Someone brought up the point that being 8 deep is a lot better than being 7 deep and that is what it boils down to when signing Garciaparra. If Nomar is in the lineup(which he will be everyday despite reports), then Crosby's offensive production will not hurt the team as much and the bottom of our lineup doesn't look as dreadful.

As I said earlier, this seems an entirely false dilemma to me. When players like Wilkerson, Reed, Michaels, Jaque Jones, Juan Encarnacion, etc. etc. are still out there, not only is it not the end of the world if the Yankees don't sign Nomar, but it doesn't mean that there is only 1 player left on the entire market.

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 03:33 PM
I really wouldn't say inexpensive, his agent says there looking for a one year contract worth between $6-8 million. Then again it's fairly decent in this market and it's a one year deal. I would definetly do it if i were the yankees :) Relatively inexpensive, obviously anytimg the word millions involved its not inexpensive.

ReggieBar
12-15-05, 03:34 PM
If Nomar does not get signed, you can pretty much bank on Damon being in a Yankee uniform. That is what also makes this deal important to me. Someone brought up the point that being 8 deep is a lot better than being 7 deep and that is what it boils down to when signing Garciaparra. If Nomar is in the lineup(which he will be everyday despite reports), then Crosby's offensive production will not hurt the team as much and the bottom of our lineup doesn't look as dreadful.


I feel like the Nomar deal may be tied into the CF situation also. If we sign Nomar, then maybe we can pick up DaVanon to compete with Bubba.

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 03:36 PM
If Nomar does not get signed, you can pretty much bank on Damon being in a Yankee uniform. That is what also makes this deal important to me. Someone brought up the point that being 8 deep is a lot better than being 7 deep and that is what it boils down to when signing Garciaparra. If Nomar is in the lineup(which he will be everyday despite reports), then Crosby's offensive production will not hurt the team as much and the bottom of our lineup doesn't look as dreadful. Personally I dont think this is true about Damon being the next target. I think if the Yankees do not get Nomar it is more likely they will pursue someone like Michaels or hopefully Reed for CF considering that Damon may have a five year deal on the table from the Dodgers. I doubt the Yankees with Cahsman in the drivers seat will put Damon in pinstripes for anything more than four years.

ryanthe13th
12-15-05, 03:45 PM
As I said earlier, this seems an entirely false dilemma to me. When players like Wilkerson, Reed, Michaels, Jaque Jones, Juan Encarnacion, etc. etc. are still out there, not only is it not the end of the world if the Yankees don't sign Nomar, but it doesn't mean that there is only 1 player left on the entire market.

Jacque Jones doesn't get on base very much. He hit .249 last year with 23 HR and a .319 OBP. That's awful except in the power category. Let the Cubs overpay for him. Encarnacion is coming off a career year in terms of OBP. He doesn't get on base very often etheir and is not an exceptional hitter. Plus, they're both natural RFers. While they would allow Sheffield to move into the fulltime DH spot, that would also have our bottom 3 looking like:

- Posada
- Encarnacion/Jones
- Bubba

Their defense isn't good enough to justify the cost for them. Nomar allows multiple people to take days off at DH, or just flat out sit while not creating a significant gap in our lineup on offense or defense. There are other options out there, but Nomar is the best one at this point.

effdamets
12-15-05, 03:46 PM
Dude, you really need to get out more. Really.

If living in New York is the problem, do you really think that Jersey is the solution?
OK.. But there are some parts of Northern Jersey that are nicer than some of the sections of the Bronx or Brooklyn. Agree or not?

Dr. Gonzo
12-15-05, 03:55 PM
OK.. But there are some parts of Northern Jersey that are nicer than some of the sections of the Bronx or Brooklyn. Agree or not?

no, new jersey is the worse place in the world.

effdamets
12-15-05, 04:02 PM
no, new jersey is the worse place in the world.
Have you ever been to Alpine or Tenafly? Alpine rivals Beverly Hills in terms of resident median income and property worth. Tenafly is where Mattingly used to live (I don't think he re-bought his old house), but it was worth like 8 million. That is definitely better than some parts of Greenwich, CT....

Hey, I'm no great fan of Jersey either, even though I grew up there. I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 04:03 PM
no, new jersey is the worse place in the world.

Its an easy port to NY, Pennsylvania and such

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 04:14 PM
A friend of mine lives in a very nice part of Jersey, I was really shocked at how beautiful it was. So really Jersey isn't all bad.

AJW
12-15-05, 04:17 PM
no, new jersey is the worse place in the world.

I beg to differ. :mad:

Yankeeah
12-15-05, 04:24 PM
no, new jersey is the worse place in the world.

There are parts of North Jersey that are some on the nicest in the country.

njdhockey
12-15-05, 04:24 PM
NJ is not bad at all. There are some bad parts and some hick parts but there are also some super rich parts.

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 04:28 PM
Wow what a slow offseason, we are waiting on whats up with Nomar so we argue about New Jeresy. Wow!

tdel23
12-15-05, 04:28 PM
NJ is not bad at all. There are some bad parts and some hick parts but there are also some super rich parts.

like pretty much every other state...

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 04:29 PM
like pretty much every other state...
Except for the South...(kidding kidding slow news day)

23and2
12-15-05, 04:31 PM
Cashman just on Mike and the Mad Dog (WFAN): No update on Nomar. Just that the Yankees made an offer and are sill waiting to hear back from Arn and Nomar. (as of 4:30pm Thursday)

BJG
12-15-05, 04:31 PM
Jacque Jones doesn't get on base very much. He hit .249 last year with 23 HR and a .319 OBP. That's awful except in the power category. Let the Cubs overpay for him. Encarnacion is coming off a career year in terms of OBP. He doesn't get on base very often etheir and is not an exceptional hitter. Plus, they're both natural RFers. While they would allow Sheffield to move into the fulltime DH spot, that would also have our bottom 3 looking like:

- Posada
- Encarnacion/Jones
- Bubba

Their defense isn't good enough to justify the cost for them. Nomar allows multiple people to take days off at DH, or just flat out sit while not creating a significant gap in our lineup on offense or defense. There are other options out there, but Nomar is the best one at this point.

This is the same Nomar who has played 143 games in the past 2 seasons combined, right? Nomar is a better hitter, sure, but to act like there aren't questions just as bit with him as with anyone else who is available is disingenous. And again, even if Nomar is the best solution, the difference between Nomar and any of these other players is not so significant as to cause some kind of outright panic if they don't sign him.

As for some of your specific points:

1. If you platoon Jones with, say, Jeff DaVanon, or even a first baseman who hits lefties well like Perez or Phillips with Shef back out in RF and Giambi at DH against lefites, then you actually end up with decent production

2. Jones is more than capable of playing both corner spots, Encarnacion of playing all 3 outfield spots (Encarnacion quite well). In fact, they have both done so, so I'm not sure how you can defiine them as RF only. Both can allow rest at DH for Sheffield and Matsui and, as mentioned above, even Giambi.

3. Encarnacion is actually quite a good defender. In addition, Sheffield and Matsui cost the team more in the OF than Giambi does at first, so in a relative sense, they don't have to be great defenders to have a bigger impact defensively than a guy the Yankees want to play primarily at first base.

4. I guess you didn't see Nomar's .320 OBP last year, given your desire to comment on Jones'. Nomar's always been a guy dependant on BA to sustain his OBP.

I just don't think there's a huge difference between Nomar and any of a number of other solutions, and what difference there may be comes with a significant risk of Nomar not playing at all. Trying to make it sound like the Yankees HAVE to sign Damon if they miss out on Nomar, with all of these things in mind, just seems like its pushing it to me. Sure, I'd take him at my price, but this hardly is the defining moment of the offseason.

Yankees1962
12-15-05, 04:31 PM
Cashman just on Mike and the Mad Dog (WFAN): No update on Nomar. Just that the Yankees made an offer and are waiting to hear back from Arn and Nomar.
Cashman didn't even confirmed that he made an offer.

23and2
12-15-05, 04:34 PM
Cashman didn't even confirmed that he made an offer.

But he did say they were waiting to hear from Nomar or his agent, right? What are they waiting to hear about then?

BJG
12-15-05, 04:39 PM
Cashman didn't even confirmed that he made an offer.

Going back to some of Dooley's points, I think it's difficult to figure out even if he says they did. When you're dealing with rumors of negotiations, especially ones like this where you can have so many variables, the base information that would get reported to the press probably doesn't tell the story. For example, I can imagine the yankees offering the base but the most incentives and the chance to make the most overall. Is that a lowball? If all that gets reported is the base offer plus "incentives", will it seem that way? The problem, of course, is there are reasons, given his recent injuries, that Nomar might take the most gaurenteed money.

Yankees1962
12-15-05, 04:41 PM
But he did say they were waiting to hear from Nomar or his agent, right? What are they waiting to hear about then?
Nope! He specifically stated he wouldn't say whether they were waiting for Nomar/Tellem nor even if they made a contract offer to them. Furthermore, he stated he couldn't speak to Nomar/Tellem's time table.

23and2
12-15-05, 04:44 PM
Nope! He specifically stated he wouldn't say whether they were waiting for Nomar/Tellem nor even if they made a contract offer to them. Furthermore, he stated he couldn't speak to Nomar/Tellem's time table.

But Brian did confirm that his last name is still Cashman, right?

Yankees1962
12-15-05, 04:44 PM
Going back to some of Dooley's points, I think it's difficult to figure out even if he says they did. When you're dealing with rumors of negotiations, especially ones like this where you can have so many variables, the base information that would get reported to the press probably doesn't tell the story. For example, I can imagine the yankees offering the base but the most incentives and the chance to make the most overall. Is that a lowball? If all that gets reported is the base offer plus "incentives", will it seem that way? The problem, of course, is there are reasons, given his recent injuries, that Nomar might take the most gaurenteed money.
I know what he said today and that is he won't confirm any contract offer to Nomar nor to Damon. I listened to that portion of my Tivo recording twice and there is no mistake as to what he did or didn't confirm today.

AMYanks
12-15-05, 04:47 PM
Cashman just on Mike and the Mad Dog (WFAN): No update on Nomar. Just that the Yankees made an offer and are sill waiting to hear back from Arn and Nomar. (as of 4:30pm Thursday)

No, he didn't say anything. He wouldn't comment on whether or not they made an offer, or even if there is interest.

Yankees1962
12-15-05, 04:47 PM
But Brian did confirm that his last name is still Cashman, right?
After not getting any confirmation to any of these contract rumors, Francesa kiddingly asked him if he was still with the Yankees and he just laughed.

goin for 27
12-15-05, 05:08 PM
Cashman also really hedged his bets with Farnsworth. Spoke of the market driving relievers costs way out of whack including Farnsworth. Also said that the Yanks really need, and are scouring for 2 more solid arms for the pen. Says that Torre is limited with what he can do late right now, and he needs more options there.

Mark19
12-15-05, 05:22 PM
Well JDPNYY claims that Nomar will be a Yankee while Tim Kurkjian believes the Yankees are a long-shot.

Isn't it funny that I feel one of our posters has more credibility than an ESPN 'analyst'?

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 05:23 PM
Well JDPNYY claims that Nomar will be a Yankee while Tim Kurkjian believes the Yankees are a long-shot.

Isn't it funny that I feel one of our posters has more credibility than an ESPN 'analyst'?


I trust Magic 8 balls over ESPN analysts

ICEBERG18
12-15-05, 05:24 PM
The Yankees' attractiveness is lessened in that Garciaparra would probably not be an everyday player, a role he has never been asked to take during his career. The Yankees would presumably use Garciaparra at first base or designated hitter when he wasn't spelling Alex Rodriguez at third base or Derek Jeter at shortstop.

It is uncertain whether such a support role and fewer plate appearances would appeal to Garciaparra, 32, at this point in his career.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051215&content_id=1282419&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

Michaels07
12-15-05, 05:25 PM
But he did say they were waiting to hear from Nomar or his agent, right? What are they waiting to hear about then?

Listen to the Hot Stove on yes, at 6.30 PM ET.

NewEraYanks2527
12-15-05, 05:25 PM
The Yankees' attractiveness is lessened in that Garciaparra would probably not be an everyday player, a role he has never been asked to take during his career. The Yankees would presumably use Garciaparra at first base or designated hitter when he wasn't spelling Alex Rodriguez at third base or Derek Jeter at shortstop.

It is uncertain whether such a support role and fewer plate appearances would appeal to Garciaparra, 32, at this point in his career.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051215&content_id=1282419&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp
Yes we've already seen that and alot of us believe he will not have reduced playing time.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 05:26 PM
The Yankees' attractiveness is lessened in that Garciaparra would probably not be an everyday player, a role he has never been asked to take during his career. The Yankees would presumably use Garciaparra at first base or designated hitter when he wasn't spelling Alex Rodriguez at third base or Derek Jeter at shortstop.

It is uncertain whether such a support role and fewer plate appearances would appeal to Garciaparra, 32, at this point in his career.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051215&content_id=1282419&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp


Great, this is going to be the slowest offseason for us inn the history of the world

BJG
12-15-05, 05:26 PM
After not getting any confirmation to any of these contract rumors, Francesa kiddingly asked him if he was still with the Yankees and he just laughed.

I think this is a good indication of why the lack of 'buzz' re possible Yankees moves isn't a bad thing. If you had a guy who was a big talker, it would be, but Cashman clearly doesn't want people to know what the FO is working on, and it appears to be a policy that people are sticking to now that the loop is slightly more controlled.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 05:27 PM
I think this is a good indication of why the lack of 'buzz' re possible Yankees moves isn't a bad thing. If you had a guy who was a big talker, it would be, but Cashman clearly doesn't want people to know what the FO is working on, and it appears to be a policy that people are sticking to now that the loop is slightly more controlled.


It makes you wonder if our FO knows what they're working on

BJG
12-15-05, 05:28 PM
Cashman also really hedged his bets with Farnsworth. Spoke of the market driving relievers costs way out of whack including Farnsworth. Also said that the Yanks really need, and are scouring for 2 more solid arms for the pen. Says that Torre is limited with what he can do late right now, and he needs more options there.

Who gets traded, released, or sent down to make room for 2 more pitchers? They've already got 11 (including Wang, who is the only one who can be sent down of that group and not including Proctor, who has options).

Michaels07
12-15-05, 05:29 PM
The Yankees' attractiveness is lessened in that Garciaparra would probably not be an everyday player, a role he has never been asked to take during his career. The Yankees would presumably use Garciaparra at first base or designated hitter when he wasn't spelling Alex Rodriguez at third base or Derek Jeter at shortstop.

It is uncertain whether such a support role and fewer plate appearances would appeal to Garciaparra, 32, at this point in his career.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051215&content_id=1282419&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

Nomar will get more at bats and playing time and a chance to shine then with any of those National League Dog teams.

BJG
12-15-05, 05:29 PM
It makes you wonder if our FO knows what they're working on

Occam's razor comes into play here... Which is more likely? The entire front office has no clue, or the entire FO doesn't want to tell the media what they are up to?

StatenIslandYankee
12-15-05, 05:30 PM
The Yankees' attractiveness is lessened in that Garciaparra would probably not be an everyday player, a role he has never been asked to take during his career. The Yankees would presumably use Garciaparra at first base or designated hitter when he wasn't spelling Alex Rodriguez at third base or Derek Jeter at shortstop.

It is uncertain whether such a support role and fewer plate appearances would appeal to Garciaparra, 32, at this point in his career.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051215&content_id=1282419&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp
Damn :(

YankeePride1967
12-15-05, 05:31 PM
What if Cashman is low-balling him as Cashman the Hero tends to do these days?


George picks up the phone.

"Hey Brian, what's going on with Nomar? Why isn't he a Yankee already? Offer him 3/50 if you need to, just get him here!"

Mark19
12-15-05, 05:32 PM
The Yankees' attractiveness is lessened in that Garciaparra would probably not be an everyday player, a role he has never been asked to take during his career. The Yankees would presumably use Garciaparra at first base or designated hitter when he wasn't spelling Alex Rodriguez at third base or Derek Jeter at shortstop.

It is uncertain whether such a support role and fewer plate appearances would appeal to Garciaparra, 32, at this point in his career.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051215&content_id=1282419&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

That is all speculation from Jim Molony, he is just rehashing what various writers have thought up.

RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 05:33 PM
Occam's razor comes into play here... Which is more likely? The entire front office has no clue, or the entire FO doesn't want to tell the media what they are up to?

hmmmmm, i didn't know Steiny knew how to shut up

Snatch Catch
12-15-05, 05:35 PM
The Yankees' attractiveness is lessened in that Garciaparra would probably not be an everyday player, a role he has never been asked to take during his career. The Yankees would presumably use Garciaparra at first base or designated hitter when he wasn't spelling Alex Rodriguez at third base or Derek Jeter at shortstop.

It is uncertain whether such a support role and fewer plate appearances would appeal to Garciaparra, 32, at this point in his career.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051215&content_id=1282419&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp


That's so stupid. Other reports have Nomar not wanting to play the outfield, and the Yanks being a good fit because they're not actively telling him that that is his position (a la Houston)

jpao89
12-15-05, 05:36 PM
Have you ever been to Alpine or Tenafly? Alpine rivals Beverly Hills in terms of resident median income and property worth. Tenafly is where Mattingly used to live (I don't think he re-bought his old house), but it was worth like 8 million. That is definitely better than some parts of Greenwich, CT....

Hey, I'm no great fan of Jersey either, even though I grew up there. I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em.

Excuse me, but I lived in Greenwich, CT and now live in NJ. I can tell you, there are NO parts of NJ better than the worst parts of Greenwich.

MiamiKat
12-15-05, 05:39 PM
OT-If you're still making decisions for Enterprise Wide Software products....we should talk ;) :lol:
:D

Equally OT- I stay away from that sort of thing whenever I can. I'm in marketing & advertising, so I never should have been involved in that one instance except to provide marketing requirements. But...at the time I worked for a small company in NYC without a full-time IT person, and you know how that goes...I wore many different hats in that job. :)

jpao89
12-15-05, 05:39 PM
George picks up the phone.

"Hey Brian, what's going on with Nomar? Why isn't he a Yankee already? Offer him 3/50 if you need to, just get him here!"

Nomar hits .220 and is on the DL 90% of the season, George holds press conference/releases statement claiming that he was listening to his "baseball people" who told him Nomar was a must have.

ChrisV82
12-15-05, 05:45 PM
Excuse me, but I lived in Greenwich, CT and now live in NJ. I can tell you, there are NO parts of NJ better than the worst parts of Greenwich.

Spoken by someone who has never been down to (or has conveniently forgotten) the Southern parts of the state (ignoring Camden).

YankeePride1967
12-15-05, 05:45 PM
Nomar hits .220 and is on the DL 90% of the season, George holds press conference/releases statement claiming that he was listening to his "baseball people" who told him Nomar was a must have.

Bill Elmslie had a hunch.

23and2
12-15-05, 05:46 PM
Occam's razor comes into play here... Which is more likely? The entire front office has no clue, or the entire FO doesn't want to tell the media what they are up to?

I thought Occam's razor only came into play if we sign Damon and he needs to do something about the beard. j/k... I'm having a bad day (week actually... I've been sick with the flu...)

Tifoso
12-15-05, 05:51 PM
I thought Occam's razor only came into play if we sign Damon and he needs to do something about the beard. j/k... I'm having a bad day (week actually... I've been sick with the flu...)

Oscillo----will shorten the duration.

ChrisV82
12-15-05, 05:53 PM
So John Donovan is like "Beware of Nomar!" a few weeks after Tom Verducci was like "Nomar is the sleeper hit of the off-season!" If Nomar proves to be a hit I think Verducci should grind his groin in Donovan's face, and vice versa if Nomar bombs.

ICEBERG18
12-15-05, 05:53 PM
That is all speculation from Jim Molony, he is just rehashing what various writers have thought up.

That's how i looked at it, and who said Nomar won't get the same amout of bats with the Yankees?

nyyanksfan20
12-15-05, 05:53 PM
The Yankees' attractiveness is lessened in that Garciaparra would probably not be an everyday player, a role he has never been asked to take during his career. The Yankees would presumably use Garciaparra at first base or designated hitter when he wasn't spelling Alex Rodriguez at third base or Derek Jeter at shortstop.

It is uncertain whether such a support role and fewer plate appearances would appeal to Garciaparra, 32, at this point in his career.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051215&content_id=1282419&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

Right now we don't have anyone that would be taking Nomar's at bats no matter where it is.

hobokenfish
12-15-05, 05:54 PM
Excuse me, but I lived in Greenwich, CT and now live in NJ. I can tell you, there are NO parts of NJ better than the worst parts of Greenwich.

Hey dipsh*t, you live in one! Don't tell me your new place is not nicer than the old place. And don't tell me you're Rick James either....

WebsterMulligan
12-15-05, 05:54 PM
what exactly is nomar supposed to do? play off the bench?

I don't get why they would want him..makes ZERO sense.

Nomar could play the following scenario (or different variations):

50 games at first - Giambi DH
30 games in RF -- Sheffield DH
20 games in LF - Matsui DH
30 games (10 each at 2B/SS/3B) giving Arod/Jeter/Cano rest.
20 - 30 games at DH

That could allow him atleast 150 games as a full-time player, if he can stay healthy and make the transition to the outfield.

surge511
12-15-05, 06:00 PM
Excuse me, but I lived in Greenwich, CT and now live in NJ. I can tell you, there are NO parts of NJ better than the worst parts of Greenwich.

I live in Greenwich and I have lots of family in NJ, and I can tell you that your statement is simply not true. If you think that all of Greenwich is $10 million homes, you clearly didn't open your eyes when you lived here. Yeah, there are really nice parts, but the town is not just a place full of celebrities and stock market winners.

Snatch Catch
12-15-05, 06:05 PM
Excuse me, but I lived in Greenwich, CT and now live in NJ. I can tell you, there are NO parts of NJ better than the worst parts of Greenwich.

Have you been stripping furniture with the windows closed, again?

njdhockey
12-15-05, 06:06 PM
Excuse me, but I lived in Greenwich, CT and now live in NJ. I can tell you, there are NO parts of NJ better than the worst parts of Greenwich.
lol simply not true :D

Fabien Brandy
12-15-05, 06:13 PM
Old Greenwich is very nice but Greenwich as a whole has areas with condos and "income producing multi family homes".

Spiker101
12-15-05, 06:36 PM
Nomar could play the following scenario (or different variations):

50 games at first - Giambi DH
30 games in RF -- Sheffield DH
20 games in LF - Matsui DH
30 games (10 each at 2B/SS/3B) giving Arod/Jeter/Cano rest.
20 - 30 games at DH

That could atleast 150 games as a full-time player, if he can stay healthy and make the transition to the outfield.

I agree in principle with the breakdown, but the point is that Nomar can get 600 ABs with this team, which is what he really needs to get that payday after 2006 or 2007. At this point, he's a hitter not a baseball player.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 06:54 PM
George picks up the phone.

"Hey Brian, what's going on with Nomar? Why isn't he a Yankee already? Offer him 3/50 if you need to, just get him here!"

4 million and incentives to bring it closer to 6 (as reported) and a utility role, being sold by Cashman to Nomar won't do it, especially when other teams are reportedly offering 8 and a fulltime position. Doesn't Cashman realize that he has to sell him the promise of being an everyday player SOMEWHERE on this team, ANYWHERE, or is Cashman really that enamored with the likes of Andy Phillips, Bubba Crosby, Bernie Williams and Giambi at 1st?

This part time at 1st and play utility man in infield won't cut it nor does it show Nomar respect, which counts for a lot when you are looking to snag him. What is he Tony Womack?

nyctalopia
12-15-05, 06:58 PM
Excuse me, but I lived in Greenwich, CT and now live in NJ. I can tell you, there are NO parts of NJ better than the worst parts of Greenwich.
*WRONG ANSWER BUZZER NOISE*

As of last census:
Avg household income for Somerset County, NJ: $76,933
Avg household income for Fairfield County, CT: $65,249
Persons below poverty (%) for Somerset County, NJ: 3.8%
Persons below poverty (%) for Fairfield Country, CT: 6.9%

I have also lived in both places, specifically Greenwich, CT and Basking Ridge, NJ. Greenwich is a sh*thole compared to Basking Ridge.

YankeePride1967
12-15-05, 07:00 PM
4 million (as reported) and a utility role, being sold by Cashman to Nomar won't do it. Doesn't Cashman realize that he has to sell him the promise of being an everyday player SOMEWHERE on this team, ANYWHERE, or is Cashman really that enamored with the likes of Andy Phillips, Bubba Crosby, Bernie Williams and Giambi at 1st?

This part time at 1st and play utility man in infield won't cut it nor does it show Nomar respect, which counts when you are looking to snag him. What is he Tony Womack?

First, there is no quote from Brian Cashman that I've seen to indicate that is what he offered. If it is, then they NEGOTIATE and come to a deal that is livable. That's how it works. Not offer a Jaret Wright 3/21 when he wouldn't have gotten that anywhere and of course he takes it. I am in favor of signing Nomar, but his production the last 3 years are not that of a $8 million a year player. I offer 1/6 (and if Nomar wants a second year that becomes vested if he reaches a certain number of PA or games at 8 million). If he moves on, then so do we. I'm not going to advocate constantly overpaying on less than stellar players. He has never played 1B before, he's always hurt, he has to realize that he has to produce before he can name his salary and get "respect".

Tifoso
12-15-05, 07:04 PM
First, there is no quote from Brian Cashman that I've seen to indicate that is what he offered. If it is, then they NEGOTIATE and come to a deal that is livable. That's how it works. Not offer a Jaret Wright 3/21 when he wouldn't have gotten that anywhere and of course he takes it. I am in favor of signing Nomar, but his production the last 3 years are not that of a $8 million a year player. I offer 1/6 (and if Nomar wants a second year that becomes vested if he reaches a certain number of PA or games at 8 million). If he moves on, then so do we. I'm not going to advocate constantly overpaying on less than stellar players. He has never played 1B before, he's always hurt, he has to realize that he has to produce before he can name his salary and get "respect".

Word.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-15-05, 07:05 PM
Dirty Jerz representing kiiiiiid. Sorry I couldn't help it...

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 07:05 PM
First, there is no quote from Brian Cashman that I've seen to indicate that is what he offered. If it is, then they NEGOTIATE and come to a deal that is livable. That's how it works. Not offer a Jaret Wright 3/21 when he wouldn't have gotten that anywhere and of course he takes it. I am in favor of signing Nomar, but his production the last 3 years are not that of a $8 million a year player. I offer 1/6 (and if Nomar wants a second year that becomes vested if he reaches a certain number of PA or games at 8 million). If he moves on, then so do we. I'm not going to advocate constantly overpaying on less than stellar players. He has never played 1B before, he's always hurt, he has to realize that he has to produce before he can name his salary and get "respect".

Then say hello to your 1st baseman Andy Phillips. You may grow to love him as much as Cashman seems to.

Why is every positive report regarding Cashman, or reasons why he couldn't sign player X because he had a snowball's chance in hell, because player X couldn't stomach NY taken as gospel, but when it's reported that he offered 4 million + incentives, it's either fabricated or not valid unless quoted by him? You can't have it both ways.

Do we actually know if Cashman gave it everything he got, gave a 100% effort to acquire a player that went elsewhere?

YankeePride1967
12-15-05, 07:07 PM
Then say hello to your 1st baseman Andy Phillips. You may grow to love him as much as Cashman.

Why is every positive report regarding Cashman, or reasons why he couldn't sign player X because he had a snowball's chance in hell taken as gospel, but when it's reported that he offered 4 million + incentives, it's either fabricated or not valid unless quoted by him? You can't have it both ways.

Do we actually know if Cashman gave it everything he got to acquire a player that went elsewhere?


I don't believe it's either Nomar or Andy Phillips. I think considering Nomar's recent past 1 year at $4.5 million is reasonable. Go ahead, give Nomar a 3/21 deal like Jaret Wright and be suprised when he gets hurt again. Brilliant. Let's go for a $400 million payroll! Do you actually know Brian Cashman is sitting around the office downloading porn or is that just an assumption?

ICEBERG18
12-15-05, 07:08 PM
I've heard that Nomar is meeting with the Dodgers owner and G.M. today.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 07:09 PM
I don't believe it's either Nomar or Andy Phillips. I think considering Nomar's recent past 1 year at $4.5 million is reasonable. Go ahead, give Nomar a 3/21 deal like Jaret Wright and be suprised when he gets hurt again. Brilliant. Let's go for a $400 million payroll!

Or we can give Nomar the same 16 million plus perks a year that Cashman gave Brown. He'd sure as hell play a lot more than Brown and be more useful.

YankeePride1967
12-15-05, 07:10 PM
I've heard that Nomar is meeting with the Dodgers owner and G.M. today.

Ah, the same organization that gave a 34 year old Kevin Brown a 7 year deal and is rumored to be dumb enough to offer Damon a 5 year deal. Maybe they feel kind and offer Nomar the 4/60 deal he turned down in Boston!

YankeePride1967
12-15-05, 07:11 PM
Or we can give Nomar the same 16 million plus perks a year that Cashman gave Brown. He'd sure as hell play a lot more than Brown and be more useful.

I think that was the Dodgers that gave him that contract. Unless you said at the time you wouldn't trade Weaver for Brown you can't complain about it now. Can't have it both ways.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 07:11 PM
I've heard that Nomar is meeting with the Dodgers owner and G.M. today.

Hopefully Cashman is right on top of this and flying out to meet Nomar as all good GM's do when they desire a player.

RobbiMan
12-15-05, 07:11 PM
Ah, the same organization that gave a 34 year old Kevin Brown a 7 year deal and is rumored to be dumb enough to offer Damon a 5 year deal. Maybe they feel kind and offer Nomar the 4/60 deal he turned down in Boston!


Isn't it a little awkward to call the Dodgers "dumb" when the Yankees traded for Kevin Brown?

YankeePride1967
12-15-05, 07:12 PM
damn it, we should have had Michaels in center, who cares if it cost us Wang! And we should have had Mike Myers signed two days earlier! Who cares about the draft pick we saved! Let's go, opening day is coming up!

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 07:12 PM
I think that was the Dodgers that gave him that contract. Unless you said at the time you wouldn't trade Weaver for Brown you can't complain about it now. Can't have it both ways.

Cashman decided to take it on. Are you actually justifying the Yanks taking on perhaps the worst contract in baseball history because Cashman was the culprit?

YankeePride1967
12-15-05, 07:12 PM
Isn't it a little awkward to call the Dodgers "dumb" when the Yankees traded for Kevin Brown?

at that time there was 2 years left to it and it's not like we gave up prospects for him. It was a mistake for a mistake.

Dooley Womack
12-15-05, 07:13 PM
Isn't it a little awkward to call the Dodgers "dumb" when the Yankees traded for Kevin Brown?
:lol:

I Love Wang
12-15-05, 07:13 PM
at that time there was 2 years left to it and it's not like we gave up prospects for him. It was a mistake for a mistake.

Yhency Brazoban disagrees.