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38Special
11-10-05, 07:16 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/5070298

Free-agent shortstop Rafael Furcal.

Yankees general manager Brian Cashman asked one of Furcal's representatives if Furcal would be willing to play center. Furcal, 28, likely will rule nothing out at this early stage of free agency he routinely shags fly balls with Braves teammate Andruw Jones and jokes about replacing him in center. He not only is athletic enough to play the position, but also could bat leadoff for the Yankees, forming a dynamic 1-2 combination with Derek Jeter.

Even if the Yankees aren't completely serious and when are they not? the high demand for Furcal almost certainly will enable him to land a five-year contract and possibly a six-year deal.

NYDCYankee
11-10-05, 07:19 AM
Intriguing. It fills two holes.

38Special
11-10-05, 07:22 AM
His OBP leaves something to be desired for a leadoff man

NYDCYankee
11-10-05, 07:23 AM
His OBP leaves something to be desired for a leadoff man

Ok but what about in the 2 hole. Leave Jeter at leadoff, it still extends the lineup.

noneckwilliams
11-10-05, 07:34 AM
i like furcal alot but it looks like he's aiming for at least a 5 year committment which is too long.

JDPNYY
11-10-05, 07:38 AM
If they sign Furcal for CF they will be moving one step closer to my suggestion of having a SS at every position.

destro
11-10-05, 07:41 AM
why not put jeter in cf?

ReggieBar
11-10-05, 08:11 AM
Furcal is a nice player, a pure SS and not a fit for the Yankees. I am not a fan of the SS to CF conversion.

ieddyi
11-10-05, 08:17 AM
Jeter to CF, Arod to SS, Nomah to 3rd....


BRILLIANT!!!

Seamonk
11-10-05, 08:31 AM
It worked for Juan Samuel.




Oh, wait...

YankeeStripes
11-10-05, 08:38 AM
why not put jeter in cf?


HAHAHA oh no!

shroud
11-10-05, 08:54 AM
This reeks of tampa decision making...

Snatch Catch
11-10-05, 09:20 AM
This reeks of tampa decision making...

Except for the fact that the article says that Cashman contacted Furcal's representation.

Furcal would be among the league leaders in assists if this shift occured.

wileedog
11-10-05, 09:25 AM
i like furcal alot but it looks like he's aiming for at least a 5 year committment which is too long.

I don't have have problem with a 5 year deal for a 27 year old. Especially if we can negotiate it down to a 4 year deal with an option.

Its not the worst idea we've heard trying to fill this spot...

YankeeStripes
11-10-05, 09:26 AM
Let's analyze this move (which I like):

Furcal: PROS
Great speed (46 steals, 10 caught stealing)
GREAT arm (something the yankees need)
Has postseason experience (and lots of it)
is young (28...meaning he can still improve)
Is a solid switch-hitter (.284 last season, and increasing run production)

Furcal Negatives:
Will require a long contract
ATL is NOT New York
CF in Yankee Stadium is a tough place to learn-on-the-job
OBP could be higher, but may impove with age/better lineup.
has never played in the american league, and will be facing new pitchers, for the most part.


Overall, I would love to see this happen, but how realistic is it? I dotn know

ShaneTravis
11-10-05, 09:27 AM
Rafael 2005 .284 .348 .429 .777

Yanks' CF 2005 .243 .297 .333 .630

Would RF consider playing CF? He is considered one of the top ss in the Majors. I would imagine he would have to be compensated with a longer deal or more money to consider the switch.

Scouting per ESPN
Baserunning & Defense

Furcal possesses as much range as any shortstop in the game. The trouble comes when he tries to use the cannon attached to his right shoulder to make impossible plays. Wild throws have led to poor fielding percentages and 24 errors last season. Furcal is one of the fastest baserunners in the game. He has learned the art of stealing bases, succeeding on 29 of his 35 attempts last year.

ojo
11-10-05, 09:33 AM
i'd take furcal in CF over any current 'option'....wilkerson is nice, but furcal is one of those players on the cusp of greatness.

and if you can play SS at the level he plays it, you can learn CF..

MTYankee23
11-10-05, 09:37 AM
This reeks of tampa decision making...

I can't see how this reeks of Tampa anything. Tampa decision making would be dropping 5 years on Damon because he's a "warrior" who has beaten us in October.

This is a very intriguing scenario, and I like the fact that Cashman is beginning to think outside of the box (or at least getting the control to think outside of the box). If you believe that ARod to 3B was Cashman's idea, than this could work out very similarly. It also provides an extreme amount of flexibility. If Furcal is willing to move to 2B, I can imagine that he'd accept CF for the Yankees, one of the prestige positions in all of sports.

wileedog
11-10-05, 09:40 AM
and if you can play SS at the level he plays it, you can learn CF..

I'm not a big fan of signing a guy and drastically moving his position, hoping he can play it.

Furcal is one of those guys who I would absolutely make an exception for.

DJ27
11-10-05, 09:41 AM
Intriguing. It fills two holes.

I agree... and it seems like the best option we have as of right now. I'm for it!
P.S. Doesn't he have "baggage" too??

ICEBERG18
11-10-05, 09:43 AM
Not a bad idea at all.

MTYankee23
11-10-05, 09:45 AM
I'm not a big fan of signing a guy and drastically moving his position, hoping he can play it.

Furcal is one of those guys who I would absolutely make an exception for.

And remember the old baseball addage, its much easier to move players "out" IF to OF, than it is the other way around. Furcal's makeup would lead me to believe that he is a candidate for this.

38Special
11-10-05, 09:47 AM
In case anyone is unsure, Furcal has an incredible arm.

gdn
11-10-05, 09:54 AM
It certainly is an interesting idea. While his OBP and AVG would be a significant upgrade over what he had in CF. Is it enough for a #1 or #2 hitter? A .348 OBP isn't ALL bad. We should expect a small decline in numbers for the transition to the AL - new pitchers, new parks, etc.

Obviously, most important is whether the whole package of defensive and offensive abilities is a good fit for the Yankees and Yankee Stadium.

Kulish29
11-10-05, 09:58 AM
Thinking outside the box. I like it. But he'll probably be wanting too much money.

ojo
11-10-05, 10:00 AM
he's a top of the order guy who probably immediately lowers the staff ERA by 1/3 of a run. in other words, he's probably worth the $ he asks for, if anybody ever is...

DJ27
11-10-05, 10:00 AM
Thinking outside the box. I like it. But he'll probably be wanting too much money.

Rather overspend (since it's not my money ;) ) cash than prospects though. Hope it works out!

PittsburghYankeeFan
11-10-05, 10:09 AM
Jeter to CF, Arod to SS, Nomah to 3rd....


BRILLIANT!!!

Drink some more Guiness, and it will seem even better....

apolansk
11-10-05, 10:10 AM
If they sign Furcal for CF they will be moving one step closer to my suggestion of having a SS at every position.

Must sign Nomar. Must make him 2B. Must complete JDPNYY's prophecy.

gamesix1977
11-10-05, 10:19 AM
Intriguing idea

THEBOSS84
11-10-05, 10:20 AM
I agree... and it seems like the best option we have as of right now. I'm for it!
P.S. Doesn't he have "baggage" too??

I beleive he got nailed for DWI or DUI last year...not the biggest deal in the wolrd.

PittsburghYankeeFan
11-10-05, 10:21 AM
Thinking outside the box. I like it. But he'll probably be wanting too much money.

Too much money, too long a contract.

Although Heyman says he is "poison," Milton Bradley may be the one (costs little in trade, costs relatively little in a 1 year deal to see if he behaves himself).

Blaze
11-10-05, 10:21 AM
why not put jeter in cf?

Dude, what are you smoking? :badass:

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 10:23 AM
I like it, but, I don't want to give a 5 year deal to someone who has never played CF before. What if he sucks at CF? We're stuck with him for 5 years.

Yanks Lifer
11-10-05, 10:28 AM
Not a bad idea at all.

Here here!

IronCaballo4
11-10-05, 10:30 AM
Well....if he somehow shows he's capable of playing OF, then it's at least worth looking into

Yanks Lifer
11-10-05, 10:32 AM
I can't see how this reeks of Tampa anything. Tampa decision making would be dropping 5 years on Damon because he's a "warrior" who has beaten us in October.

This is a very intriguing scenario, and I like the fact that Cashman is beginning to think outside of the box (or at least getting the control to think outside of the box). If you believe that ARod to 3B was Cashman's idea, than this could work out very similarly. It also provides an extreme amount of flexibility. If Furcal is willing to move to 2B, I can imagine that he'd accept CF for the Yankees, one of the prestige positions in all of sports.

I think you hit the nail on the head in saying Cash is thinking out of the box. Tampa factions would simply fill the need by overpaying a subpar or past his prime player who already plays at the position in question.

If Furcal is willing to do this, I too think it is the best option (5 years or not) followed by Wilkerson then Bradley as a last resort. I've seen a "Bobby Abreu is available" rumor too. While a great player who would fit in nicely, he would (and rightfully so) cost too much.

DontHateOnNumber2
11-10-05, 10:35 AM
Let's analyze this move (which I like):

Furcal: PROS
Great speed (46 steals, 10 caught stealing)
GREAT arm (something the yankees need)
Has postseason experience (and lots of it)
is young (28...meaning he can still improve)
Is a solid switch-hitter (.284 last season, and increasing run production)

Furcal Negatives:
Will require a long contract
ATL is NOT New York
CF in Yankee Stadium is a tough place to learn-on-the-job
OBP could be higher, but may impove with age/better lineup.
has never played in the american league, and will be facing new pitchers, for the most part.


Overall, I would love to see this happen, but how realistic is it? I dotn know

I think what sticks out the most is the "long contract" part. The Yankees have reallt taken a hit in the past few years because of huge, long-term deals. If this goes through then Furcal better play like Furcal, and not Tony Womack.

nyyanksfan20
11-10-05, 10:39 AM
I like this idea, but I wonder how much we would have to overpay to get furcal to play center.

DJ27
11-10-05, 10:43 AM
I like this idea, but I wonder how much we would have to overpay to get furcal to play center.

I think using the "Yankee CF prestige" play should make up for that if he has any ego at all.

RhodyYanksFan
11-10-05, 10:44 AM
I like this idea, but I wonder how much we would have to overpay to get furcal to play center.

I bet he'd demand 5/55 from us to switch positions. No way.

DJ27
11-10-05, 10:47 AM
I bet he'd demand 5/55 from us to switch positions. No way.

Come back with a 5/35-40 and the opportunity to play one of the most vaunted positions in all of sports (CF for the Yankees).

vin777b
11-10-05, 10:47 AM
yes way.

gdn
11-10-05, 10:49 AM
I do think 5 years might be a bit much. The Yankees need to stop giving long-term contracts. 3-4 years is fair.

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 10:50 AM
Come back with a 5/35-40 and the opportunity to play one of the most vaunted positions in all of sports (CF for the Yankees).

Agreed, if he rejects, then we'll look deeper into other options. When can we have talks with him, Nov. 15?

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-10-05, 10:54 AM
This also could simply be a case, somewhat like the Pedro meeting in Tampa last year (though not as high profile), in that the two sides are using each other...but might actually be able to work something out if it made sense. Furcal has no reason to blow off the Yankees. The first rule for any free agent on the market is to get the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, or Dodgers interested in you. Once that happens, your price goes up. Furcal already had the Mets interested, this just helps him more. As for the Yankees, this is another option to solve the centerfield problem and gives them more leverage with another team as they explore a trade, or God forbid, get someone like Damon to drop his demands to sign (which I hope doesn't happen, I don't want him). I still am going to go and say that Soriano will be their centerfielder when this is all said and done.

rhodehead
11-10-05, 11:00 AM
I like this line of thinking, very creative. And we would not be stuck with Furcal if he totally bombed as a CF.

I think he would move to 2b, with Cano getting dealt for a proven CF. Perhaps that is what Cashman is thinking. Sign him, let him play CF. If he sucks, move him to 2b (also a new position, but could be an easier transition) and Cano will be able to land us a very good CF...While i wouldn't want to trade Cano away, it is an ejector seat option if we landed Furcal.

Of course, money and length of a deal could turn me off, but it sounds good so far...

BroadwayBomber55
11-10-05, 11:04 AM
So, is this the Yankee plan to revamp the outfield defense with speed, athleticism, good reads, and strong and accurate throwing arms?

Sign Rafael Furcal and put him in CF, sign Jacque Jones or Brian S. Giles and put him in RF, re-sign Godzilla and keep him at LF, and put Sheff in DH?

indianyanksfan
11-10-05, 11:07 AM
So, is this the Yankee plan to revamp the outfield defense with speed, athleticism, good reads, and strong and accurate throwing arms?

Sign Rafael Furcal and put him in CF, sign Jacque Jones or Brian S. Giles and put him in RF, re-sign Godzilla and keep him at LF, and put Sheff in DH?

i really wouldnt mind that except i'd rather have giles than jones. :)

wileedog
11-10-05, 11:09 AM
I still am going to go and say that Soriano will be their centerfielder when this is all said and done.

I'd rather start Bubba then trade for Sori and stick him in CF.

Seriously.

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 11:19 AM
So, is this the Yankee plan to revamp the outfield defense with speed, athleticism, good reads, and strong and accurate throwing arms?

Sign Rafael Furcal and put him in CF, sign Jacque Jones or Brian S. Giles and put him in RF, re-sign Godzilla and keep him at LF, and put Sheff in DH?

I like that idea. Split Matsui and Sheffs OF/DH time.

indianyanksfan
11-10-05, 11:33 AM
now i'm torn...

i originally wanted bradley/wilk as they'd be pretty to obtain via trade but furcal is really interesting...he's also around the same age but wouldnt cost any prospects.

hmm...

tdel23
11-10-05, 11:36 AM
This reeks of tampa decision making...


i'd disagree with this, signing Damon would reek of a tampa move

PerfectCone
11-10-05, 11:37 AM
He would cost compensatory draft pics, thus costing us prospects. They've got to get away from this type of signing if there is to be a bright future.

DJ27
11-10-05, 11:39 AM
How about Furcal and visiting the Wang for Abreu deal. An outfield of Matsui (LF), Furcal (CF), Abreu (RF) with Sheff as the DH would be solid. I really like Wang but we would still have RJ, Moose, Chacon, Pavano, Wright/Small in our rotation.

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 11:39 AM
He would cost compensatory draft pics, thus costing us prospects. They've got to get away from this type of signing if there is to be a bright future.

Well if Gordon leaves, we will get those picks back. I know Gordon is a Typa A, is Furcal?

gdn
11-10-05, 11:40 AM
Well if Gordon leaves, we will get those picks back. I know Gordon is a Typa A, is Furcal?

It also depends on whether they offer him arb., right?

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 11:40 AM
I wouldn't hold much water on the Abreu deal, hes the franchise player. I don't see why they would trade him

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 11:41 AM
It also depends on whether they offer him arb., right?

Yep, I'm sure they both will be offered arbitration.

ShaneTravis
11-10-05, 11:45 AM
Seeing as how the alternatives via free agency.....
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/teams/report/NYY/9030406

"Damon and Wilson are two of the free agent market's marquee names, but both are flawed and would be pricey. There are reports out of Boston that Damon's agent, Scott Boras, is preparing to open at $50 million over four years, while Wilson, 31, who made $12.5 million last year, is believed to be seeking something in the area of $36 million over three years."

Spending the money on Furcal would be wiser.

ComeBackShane47
11-10-05, 11:46 AM
He would cost compensatory draft pics, thus costing us prospects. They've got to get away from this type of signing if there is to be a bright future.


Thats the point most people are missing. Furcal is a good player, but not really worth the money and the draft pick it will cost to sign him, especially when he has never played the position before, and in reality will be heavily overpaid. Furcal the name is flashy, but trading for a player like Wilkerson or Bradley will cost less, meaning the Yanks can spend that Furcal money and draft pick on other areas, so that the team will not only be good next season but not be strapped down for the seasons after

ShaneTravis
11-10-05, 11:51 AM
I wouldn't hold much water on the Abreu deal, hes the franchise player. I don't see why they would trade him

http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spyanks104506504nov10,0,5875.story?coll=ny-sports-print

"In addition to working on Matsui's extension, the Yankees continue to work on their voids in centerfield and the bullpen. The Phillies are dangling Bobby Abreu, but the Yankees don't want to give up Robinson Cano or Chien-Ming Wang for him. Many team officials hold large reservations over pursuing Milton Bradley, whom the Dodgers will trade for virtually nothing."

He has a pretty hefty contract but if all they want is Wang to get one of the best hitters in the league...I think you make that deal.

Blaze
11-10-05, 11:51 AM
Personally if it were possible I would rather they sign furcal. Atleast then the Yankees would control their own destiny instead having to trade with other teams that always seem to ask for more when it's the Yankees. I'd be fine with Wilkerson or someone else but I think Furcal is probably worth the risk and seems like a better fit all around.

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 11:52 AM
I saw that, but I'm not sure I believe that Matsui stuff, so I don't see a reason to believe the Abreu stuff. Would be nice though

Yankees1962
11-10-05, 12:01 PM
How about Furcal and visiting the Wang for Abreu deal. An outfield of Matsui (LF), Furcal (CF), Abreu (RF) with Sheff as the DH would be solid. I really like Wang but we would still have RJ, Moose, Chacon, Pavano, Wright/Small in our rotation.
You honestly think the Yankees can just trade Wang for Abreu? The Phillies would want at least one of the Yankees top two prospects for him along with Wang and probably even more than that. They're not trading him to dump salary, but instead are doing it to improve their ballclub and shake things up within the clubhouse.

ShaneTravis
11-10-05, 12:01 PM
I saw that, but I'm not sure I believe that Matsui stuff, so I don't see a reason to believe the Abreu stuff. Would be nice though

Definately would be nice. With all the names thrown around this offseason....Giles,Abreu,Furcal,Damon,Pierre,Wilk.,Preston, it's hard to keep track.

Picking up Bobby with Matsui and Sheff (DH)...I don't care if they put Bubba in Center.
Heck, with that lineup just pound a stick in dead center and put a glove on top of it.

Sam18
11-10-05, 12:03 PM
If we don't overpay for him, I like this idea.

RhodyYanksFan
11-10-05, 12:04 PM
I wouldn't hold much water on the Abreu deal, hes the franchise player. I don't see why they would trade him

He also had a horrible 2nd half, and plays in an extreme hitters park. I wouldn't want the Yankees to break the bank and/or lose Wang for him.

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 12:08 PM
He also had a horrible 2nd half, and plays in an extreme hitters park. I wouldn't want the Yankees to break the bank and/or lose Wang for him.

I go to school in the Philly area, and everyone here says the same thing. He's streaky like non ones business. He'll be red hot for two weeks, then be cold for 2 more, then average for a month etc. I doubt they woudl deal him, and I wouldn't want to make a deal for him because it would probably cost us Cano/Wang, Duncan and Hughes

gold23
11-10-05, 12:10 PM
Thats the point most people are missing. Furcal is a good player, but not really worth the money and the draft pick it will cost to sign him, especially when he has never played the position before, and in reality will be heavily overpaid. Furcal the name is flashy, but trading for a player like Wilkerson or Bradley will cost less, meaning the Yanks can spend that Furcal money and draft pick on other areas, so that the team will not only be good next season but not be strapped down for the seasons after


It's mostly money. Not the draft picks. The players the Yanks would need to trade for any of those guys (other than Bradley, who would come for very little) would have a significantly higher chance of being impact major leaguers than the player the Yanks drafted in the first round. Do a study- don't look at the top five picks in the draft, and look at the first rounders of the past ten years. A vast majority of those players never make an impact.

You want to maintain picks, no doubt, as that is the key to building long terms. But trading established prospects at AA or higher is more risky long-term than losing a draft pick.

yanksphan
11-10-05, 12:13 PM
Abreu's defense dropped off this year as well. His UZR was a -4

ShaneTravis
11-10-05, 12:19 PM
You honestly think the Yankees can just trade Wang for Abreu? The Phillies would want at least one of the Yankees top two prospects for him along with Wang and probably even more than that. They're not trading him to dump salary, but instead are doing it to improve their ballclub and shake things up within the clubhouse.

No, but I honestly don't think one of the top 10 best all around shortstops in the league is going to be playing center field for the NY Yankees in 2006.
Hence the Hot Stove season.

RI Dawg
11-10-05, 12:21 PM
I could make a good GM, I made that same suggestion of Furcal in CF last week...

Seamonk
11-10-05, 12:31 PM
Furcal will say anything to drive his price up, but trust me.


He'll be somebody's shortstop next year...

nydeano
11-10-05, 12:31 PM
Frucal has an absolute frick'n CANNON for an arm. Who knows about the CF thing.

Pavano needs to leave the AL and get back to the NL. Maybe Philly would show some interest...

gold23
11-10-05, 12:32 PM
I don't love Abreu. Very good player, but not great and certainly not worth what it woudl cost to get him. He is a very streaky player, as well.

gold23
11-10-05, 12:33 PM
No, but I honestly don't think one of the top 10 best all around shortstops in the league is going to be playing center field for the NY Yankees in 2006.
Hence the Hot Stove season.


Heck, the league's best all around SS has played 3B for them- who knows what will happen next? :)

ShaneTravis
11-10-05, 12:34 PM
Furcal will say anything to drive his price up, but trust me.


He'll be somebody's shortstop next year...


At the very minute Foxsports spouted this rumor Furcal's agent started looking at homes in a better neighborhood.

I think every free agent's goal is to be mentioned at least once with the Yankees----drives the price up.

Jace
11-10-05, 12:43 PM
At the very minute Foxsports spouted this rumor Furcal's agent started looking at homes in a better neighborhood.

I think every free agent's goal is to be mentioned at least once with the Yankees----drives the price up.

It also makes the offseason fun for us. Its good to be a Yankees fan, seriously.

surge511
11-10-05, 12:47 PM
Considering all the other options that have been mentioned, I like this one the best. Furcal is a great player, and would have positive effects on the offense. If we get him, then maybe we can take some of our outfield prospects like Melky along with White/DeSalvo and try to get a cather like Saltamaccia off the Braves.

gold23
11-10-05, 12:59 PM
You'd be putting a ton of $ at risk without knowing if he could play CF well. It's too big of a chance to be taking. If it turns out he can't track a fly ball that well, what do you do? Trade Cano? You'd force your hand and spend millions on a guess.

I love Furcal- but I wouldn't sign the guy to play CF.

whalers
11-10-05, 01:06 PM
I wonder how much money Furcal's agent floated fox to publish this. I don't get how signing Furcal would help us more than signing an actual CF'er. The idea that because a guy plays a good SS translates into a great CF'er makes no sense to me.
Look at Mike Cameron. He is a great defender and he admitted to having trouble moving from CF to RF. If a gold glove caliber outfielder has trouble moving from one outfield postion to the other what kind of trouble do you expect an infielder moving to the outfield to have. I am not saying its impossible but its extremely optimistic to think he would be an above averge CF'er in his first season.

wileedog
11-10-05, 01:15 PM
No, but I honestly don't think one of the top 10 best all around shortstops in the league is going to be playing center field for the NY Yankees in 2006.

LOL, we have one of the best shortstops ever to play the game at 3B :)

indianyanksfan
11-10-05, 01:16 PM
it seems that his attributes translate into being a good cf...whether that will happen or not god knows.

however if the mets/yanks are the main competitors for him, i think he'd take the yanks. (not to sound biased. :P )

JeffWeaverFan
11-10-05, 01:22 PM
It's a good idea IF we know that he would be a good defensive CFer. I'd rather if we could get Milton Bradley or Brad Wilkerson on the cheap but it's good that Cash is looking at this from all sides and keeping as many options open as he can.

23and2
11-10-05, 01:27 PM
If he comes to NY and it doesn't work out in CF, do you think he could be shifted to LF and Matsui to CF?

JeffWeaverFan
11-10-05, 01:32 PM
If he comes to NY and it doesn't work out in CF, do you think he could be shifted to LF and Matsui to CF?
I think the only way it isn't working is if he is getting terrible reads on fly balls. If this is the case, he wouldn't be good in any outfield position. But, my guess is that if the Yankees were going to put all that money into Furcal, they would make sure he could play the position.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 01:37 PM
it seems that his attributes translate into being a good cf...whether that will happen or not god knows.

Speed does not always translate into being a good CF. Playing good CF has more to do with the jump and ball tracking. Look at Damon and Edmonds.

Damon is a deer but struggles to track the ball or even catch it. Edmonds is relativly slow but we catches everything.

surge511
11-10-05, 01:37 PM
I think playing outfield is getting overrated around here. It is not that hard. It does take some skill and judgement to read the balls right off the bat, but it is not something that can't be learned. [And yes, I do play baseball so I'm not just making stuff up]. Also, I think hitting has to be taken into account as well. The other talked about options are not terrible hitters, but none of them offer the bat that Furcal does. I definitely think Furcal in CF would work.

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 01:40 PM
If he comes to NY and it doesn't work out in CF, do you think he could be shifted to LF and Matsui to CF?

If he won't work in CF, he probably won't work in the OF at all. He's never played there, so this would be a huge risk.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 01:47 PM
I think playing outfield is getting overrated around here. It is not that hard. It does take some skill and judgement to read the balls right off the bat, but it is not something that can't be learned. [And yes, I do play baseball so I'm not just making stuff up]. Also, I think hitting has to be taken into account as well. The other talked about options are not terrible hitters, but none of them offer the bat that Furcal does. I definitely think Furcal in CF would work.

Not that hard?!?!? If it wasn't that hard, Manny wouldn't suck so bad at it! And LF is the easiest Of position to play!

In MAJOR LEAGUE baseball, it takes more than speed to chase down a drive into the gap.

Maynerd
11-10-05, 01:48 PM
Mickey Mantle was groomed to be a Shortstop. He had a cannon for an arm, but was a little less than accurate. They moved him to Center Field. If I remember correctly, he did OK. Hung around for more than a couple years.

Later, the Yankees had another Oklahoma Shortstop who wasn't going to make it as an infielder. They also converted Bobby Murcer to Center.

The way I see it, the Yankees are 2-for-2 in converting Shortstops to CF. With Furcal's arm, I'm surprised no one has tried this before.

I like it.

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 01:50 PM
Mickey Mantle was groomed to be a Shortstop. He had a cannon for an arm, but was a little less than accurate. They moved him to Center Field. If I remember correctly, he did OK. Hung around for more than a couple years.

Later, the Yankees had another Oklahoma Shortstop who wasn't going to make it as an infielder. They also converted Bobby Murcer to Center.

The way I see it, the Yankees are 2-for-2 in converting Shortstops to CF. With Furcal's arm, I'm surprised no one has tried this before.

I like it.

Changing positions doesn't always work though (Knoblauch.) A lot of times, the position you play in the minors or college you end up changing. Posada was a 2nd baseman, and IIRC, a very good one.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 01:51 PM
Mickey Mantle was groomed to be a Shortstop. He had a cannon for an arm, but was a little less than accurate. They moved him to Center Field. If I remember correctly, he did OK. Hung around for more than a couple years.

Later, the Yankees had another Oklahoma Shortstop who wasn't going to make it as an infielder. They also converted Bobby Murcer to Center.

The way I see it, the Yankees are 2-for-2 in converting Shortstops to CF. With Furcal's arm, I'm surprised no one has tried this before.

I like it.

Did you just compare Furcal to Mickey?:confused:

Maynerd
11-10-05, 01:55 PM
Did you just compare Furcal to Mickey?:confused:
Good Lord. No. I'm just trying to make the point that there's been some success moving Shortstops into the Outfield. I compare NO ONE to Mickey. It simply isn't fair.

Yeah, maybe Knoblach wasn't a successful transition, but he couldn't throw the ball from Second to First, what made anybody think he could play the Outfield?

I still like it.

Yankeeah
11-10-05, 01:56 PM
Good Lord. No. I'm just trying to make the point that there's been some success moving Shortstops into the Outfield. I compare NO ONE to Mickey. It simply isn't fair.

Yeah, maybe Knoblach wasn't a successful transition, but he couldn't throw the ball from Second to First, what made anybody think he could play the Outfield?

I still like it.

I like it too, I just think its real risky and definetly not a sure thing

Maynerd
11-10-05, 02:01 PM
What 'sure thing' options do we have in Center?

Johnny Damon? [shudder]
Melky?
Bernie?
Matsui-san?
Bubba?

No matter what Cash pulls off, there will be risk. I'm thinking Furcal represents a lower risk (and a potentially higher reward) than any other options I've seen.

MaximMan121
11-10-05, 02:01 PM
Honestly, part of what I like about this is that if Furcal isn'tas good in CF as we expect, Brian "out of the box" Cashman may move jeter to CF in his place.

ShaneTravis
11-10-05, 02:02 PM
Heck, the league's best all around SS has played 3B for them- who knows what will happen next? :)


lol. Great point. I wouldn't mind this move at all. I would much rather spend the money on Furcal than watch the rainbows come in from Damon's arm out in center.

27IsNext
11-10-05, 02:04 PM
We're looking for a stop-gap, not a long-term, high priced solution. Pass.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 02:04 PM
Good Lord. No. I'm just trying to make the point that there's been some success moving Shortstops into the Outfield. I compare NO ONE to Mickey. It simply isn't fair.

Yeah, maybe Knoblach wasn't a successful transition, but he couldn't throw the ball from Second to First, what made anybody think he could play the Outfield?

I still like it.

just making sure. But seriously, it takes a special kind of player to convert positions like that, I don't want to watch Furcal get on-the-job training in our centerfield. His in-experience will cost us games.

gdn
11-10-05, 02:04 PM
I guess since we're talking about 2B/SS/OF here, this would be appropriate in this thread. From Neyer's afternoon chat:


ryan (SF): I'm having a hard time understanding the Yankees reluctance to trade Cano. I just don't see him as anything more than an average to slightly above avg hitter, and well below average defensive second baseman. Of Wang, Duncan, Philip Hughes, and Cano...I'd trade Cano. Thoughts on Cano?

SportsNation Rob Neyer: (1:26 PM ET ) Defense aside, Cano's going to be one of the best second basemen in the league next season. So why trade him?

and


Dave (Middletown, NJ): Did you see the article about the Yankees asking Furcal if he would be willing to play CF? Will the Yanx do ANYTHING BUT play Jeter in CF where he's belonged all along!? I want to see this happen only to be able to now call jeter the 3rd (at least) best defensive SS on the Yanx.

SportsNation Rob Neyer: (1:45 PM ET ) You mean TWO-TIME GOLD GLOVE-WINNING Derek Jeter? He'll be playing shortstop in a wheelchair someday.


I'm not sure if he's serious about the Cano comment...

Blaze
11-10-05, 02:06 PM
Changing positions doesn't always work though (Knoblauch.) A lot of times, the position you play in the minors or college you end up changing. Posada was a 2nd baseman, and IIRC, a very good one.

Knob had 'other' problems that contributed to how he played just about any position :wtf:

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 02:16 PM
Knob had 'other' problems that contributed to how he played just about any position :wtf:

There are lots of reasons why teams change a players position in college or minors. Lots of times its because they're not that good at the position they play

Maynerd
11-10-05, 02:25 PM
There are lots of reasons why teams change a players position in college or minors. Lots of times its because they're not that good at the position they play
As was true with Mantle and Murcer.

But, another reason to change a player's position is that they have the athleticism to play a position where they can make a greater contribution to the team. This would be the situation in a potential Furcal experiment.

I still like it.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 02:32 PM
Do want a project in centerfield for a 4-5 years at $10-11 mil a year or do you want a proven short term player for considerably less and develop prospects?

32elston
11-10-05, 02:45 PM
why not put jeter in cf?

Jeter is a gold glover. Furcal's only solid defensive year was last year. He makes lots of bad throws. Of course the normal excuse for evey shortstop arises "he gets to a lot of balls other guys don't". That's why he's playing short, to get to balls other guys can't.

wileedog
11-10-05, 02:50 PM
Do want a project in centerfield for a 4-5 years at $10-11 mil a year or do you want a proven short term player for considerably less and develop prospects?

If there was a "proven short term player" for CF that didn't cost Wang or Cano we wouldn't be having this conversation about Furcal.

Blaze
11-10-05, 02:51 PM
Jeter is a gold glover. Furcal's only solid defensive year was last year. He makes lots of bad throws. Of course the normal excuse for evey shortstop arises "he gets to a lot of balls other guys don't". That's why he's playing short, to get to balls other guys can't.

Last season he made 24 errors.

Jace
11-10-05, 02:53 PM
Do want a project in centerfield for a 4-5 years at $10-11 mil a year or do you want a proven short term player for considerably less and develop prospects?

He might not cost that much. If it is 4 years for $10 mil or so or maybe 5 for $8 mil I do it, provided some reliable source has given me the info that Furcal can judge fly balls (we all think Jeter can judge fly balls and he is a shortstop, I'm sure someone knows this about Furcal). He is very fast and has a strong arm. What part of centerfield will he not get?

As for prospects, we have no good centerfield prospect coming up for at least 3 years. Melky Cabrera will not be a centerfielder, he does not have enough range (and we aren't even sure whether his offense will be major league level yet). Furcal strikes me as the type of player we are looking for for a long term CF solution. I guarantee he will have range, he is relatively young, and he can hit just fine for the position.

DJ27
11-10-05, 02:57 PM
As for prospects, we have no good centerfield prospect coming up for at least 3 years. Melky Cabrera will not be a centerfielder, he does not have enough range (and we aren't even sure whether his offense will be major league level yet). Furcal strikes me as the type of player we are looking for for a long term CF solution. I guarantee he will have range, he is relatively young, and he can hit just fine for the position.

I agree.... a stopgap will just lead to another stopgap so why not have one guy there the next few years and see if our prospects pan out.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 03:06 PM
He might not cost that much. If it is 4 years for $10 mil or so or maybe 5 for $8 mil I do it, provided some reliable source has given me the info that Furcal can judge fly balls (we all think Jeter can judge fly balls and he is a shortstop, I'm sure someone knows this about Furcal). He is very fast and has a strong arm. What part of centerfield will he not get?

As for prospects, we have no good centerfield prospect coming up for at least 3 years. Melky Cabrera will not be a centerfielder, he does not have enough range (and we aren't even sure whether his offense will be major league level yet). Furcal strikes me as the type of player we are looking for for a long term CF solution. I guarantee he will have range, he is relatively young, and he can hit just fine for the position.

How will he play balls off the wall? Is his arm accurate from CF? How comfortable will he be with a different glove? Are his legs(his best asset) more injury prone in the outfield? Does he know which balls are hit into the gap belong to the CF? Will he know where to throw in a tough situation? Can he rob homeruns? How well does he track balls hit over his head?

I don't think we should pay $10 mil a year for all these questions

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 03:08 PM
Is Boras Furcal's agent? If not, who is?

Mark19
11-10-05, 03:10 PM
Craig Biggio and Robin Yount both made the transition from middle infield to center field. It certainly wasn't smooth, but it worked for a time.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 03:12 PM
Craig Biggio and Robin Yount both made the transition from middle infield to center field. It certainly wasn't smooth, but it worked for a time.

Biggio play may have lost some games for the Astros. Who knows how many double fell because he's not an experienced CF

32elston
11-10-05, 03:16 PM
Last season he made 24 errors.
That was 2004, look at his 2005 stats on baseballreference. He only commited 15 in 2005.

Jace
11-10-05, 03:18 PM
How will he play balls off the wall? Is his arm accurate from CF? How comfortable will he be with a different glove? Are his legs(his best asset) more injury prone in the outfield? Does he know which balls are hit into the gap belong to the CF? Will he know where to throw in a tough situation? Can he rob homeruns? How well does he track balls hit over his head?

I don't think we should pay $10 mil a year for all these questions

A lot of these questions probably can be answered by people who have watched him play on a regular basis. They are skills that usually can be learned to some degree by a fast, gifted athlete, and I don't know enough about Furcal to say what he can do. In any case, Bernie's limitations last year caused him to be horrible in just about all of these things (his lack of arm and speed made it a moot point whether or not he knew a ball in the gap was his or where to throw in a tough situation), and Furcal will be an improvement in all of them regardless. I realize a cheaper stopgap could also be an improvement, but Furcal has hitting skills, speed, and an arm that these stopgaps don't suggesting he has a much higher ceiling than them.

If someone who would know these things gives a favorable report on Furcal's skills/atheltic aptitude for learning these new skills and it is for the amount of money that I mentioned, then I pull the trigger.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 03:21 PM
A lot of these questions probably can be answered by people who have watched him play on a regular basis. They are skills that usually can be learned to some degree by a fast, gifted athlete, and I don't know enough about Furcal to say what he can do. In any case, Bernie's limitations last year caused him to be horrible in just about all of these things (his lack of arm and speed made it a moot point whether or not he knew a ball in the gap was his or where to throw in a tough situation).

If someone who would know these things gives a favorable report on Furcal's skills/atheltic aptitude for learning these new skills and it is for the amount of money that I mentioned, then I pull the trigger.

Tracking infield pop-ups and deep fly balls in th OF are 2 different things. If he hasn't done it in a game or spring traing with success, than I dont want to pay a player $10 mil a year to play a position I'm not sure he can play

32elston
11-10-05, 03:24 PM
Furcal's entire game is dependent on speed. I don't think you sign a player like that because the slightest injury to the legs and he's useless.

AMYanks
11-10-05, 03:47 PM
It will cost way too much.

32elston
11-10-05, 03:51 PM
Really, I would just like to know that we have a defined starter in center. How are these guys supposed to get mentally prepared if everyday we have a different guy in center? It was like we had 162 rounds of auditions last year and nobody won.

Don Mattingly
11-10-05, 03:52 PM
i mistakenly posted the link to the article again.

Evil Empire
11-10-05, 03:52 PM
why not put jeter in cf?

<--not a centerfielder

yanksphan
11-10-05, 03:56 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5070298

check it.

1st post of the thread...

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=90790

check it. ;)

32elston
11-10-05, 04:00 PM
Since we are in the business of moving athletes around, why don't we just get T.O. to play center I'm sure he can catch. He's just sitting at home anyway and then we can sighn Shaq to play first and Ben Johnson to bat lead-off.

Evil Empire
11-10-05, 04:07 PM
Since we are in the business of moving athletes around, why don't we just get T.O. to play center I'm sure he can catch. He's just sitting at home anyway and then we can sighn Shaq to play first and Ben Johnson to bat lead-off.

He might tackle Jeter when Jeter runs too far out into CF.

32elston
11-10-05, 04:10 PM
He might tackle Jeter when Jeter runs too far out into CF.
We couldn't sign him anyway because there's no crying in baseball.

boo_427
11-10-05, 04:31 PM
ATL is NOT New York


Hmm, I never knew that!

ATL is NOT NYC would be a better comparison.

Bernie Inferno
11-10-05, 04:34 PM
Is Boras Furcal's agent? If not, who is? Adam Katz

32elston
11-10-05, 04:34 PM
No place is NYC.....what are we going to do? Get players from the Mets all the time? No thanks.

apolansk
11-10-05, 04:55 PM
No place is NYC.....what are we going to do? Get players from the Mets all the time? No thanks.

It worked with Armand...

It worked with Mike Stant...

It worked with Todd Zei...

OK that's just a bad idea.

DeputyFife
11-10-05, 04:57 PM
Since we are in the business of moving athletes around, why don't we just get T.O. to play center I'm sure he can catch. He's just sitting at home anyway and then we can sighn Shaq to play first and Ben Johnson to bat lead-off.

I bet T.O. could be a great defensive centerfielder, I'm just not sure about his bat. I like those moves.


He might tackle Jeter when Jeter runs too far out into CF.

T.O. isn't about to tackle anyone. He might go across the middle but he ain't gonna tackle anyone.

Seriously though, I would like to see RF in CF. I think it's better than other option at this point. If you don't like it what other alternatives do you suggest? Sign RF to play second and trade Cano for a CFer? I'd rather keep Cano and I think RF could match up with anyone we could get for Cano.

gold23
11-10-05, 04:58 PM
It worked with Armand...

It worked with Mike Stant...

It worked with Todd Zei...

OK that's just a bad idea.


David Cone? Robin Ventura to a lesser degree?

Hey...it HAS worked. :)

vin777b
11-10-05, 05:22 PM
Craig Biggio and Robin Yount both made the transition from middle infield to center field. It certainly wasn't smooth, but it worked for a time.



say what? Robin was a excellent CF. I should know, the Brewers were my team at the time.

vin777b
11-10-05, 05:24 PM
NYY signing Furcal to play CF, would make me forget about not signing Carlos Beltran.

puckmaster87
11-10-05, 05:26 PM
Excellent idea, though I highly doubt it will happen. He provides the Yankees with an excellent leadoff hitter, allowing Jeter to move into the number 2 hole in the lineup. Although he is a shortstop, he has an amazing arm and could easily make long throws.

Rich
11-10-05, 05:27 PM
If the Yankees sign Furcal, Jeter would be the third best SS on team team, but he would remain at SS. Sheesh.

rightfielder21
11-10-05, 05:31 PM
If the Yankees sign Furcal, Jeter would be the third best SS on team team, but he would remain at SS. Sheesh.

WIN METHOD, Rich, WIN METHOD...

Bueller
11-10-05, 05:34 PM
didnt Yount win a Gold Glove in Center too?

32elston
11-10-05, 05:34 PM
If the Yankees sign Furcal, Jeter would be the third best SS on team team, but he would remain at SS. Sheesh.
Furcal is nowhere hear the shortstop Jeter is. Last year he finally got his errors under 20.

Jace
11-10-05, 05:39 PM
Furcal is nowhere hear the shortstop Jeter is. Last year he finally got his errors under 20.

And errors are nowhere near the stat that people think they are. Granted, if you are consistently getting over 20-25 errors its indicative of a problem, but comparing Jeter's 14 errors to Furcal's 18 or whatever (I didn't look it up) doesn't tell much of anything.

Jeter is a bad shortstop going to his left, average going to his right, and average to good going in. Furcal has better range than Jeter. He gets to many more balls and makes a few more wild throws per season, also getting quite a few more outs that go for hits against Jeter in the process.

vin777b
11-10-05, 05:49 PM
didnt Yount win a Gold Glove in Center too?


I want to say he won a Gold Glove in CF. I do know he won the MVP (his second), playing CF.

he was very good in CF. And in his time, no one climbed the ladder (to rob a HR), smoother than him.

32elston
11-10-05, 05:51 PM
And errors are nowhere near the stat that people think they are. Granted, if you are consistently getting over 20-25 errors its indicative of a problem, but comparing Jeter's 14 errors to Furcal's 18 or whatever (I didn't look it up) doesn't tell much of anything.

Jeter is a bad shortstop going to his left, average going to his right, and average to good going in. Furcal has better range than Jeter. He gets to many more balls and makes a few more wild throws per season, also getting quite a few more outs that go for hits against Jeter in the process.

As someone thats watched at least 100 Braves games a year living in the ATL and watched at least 150 Yankee games a year, you watch both guys and Jeter is just simply better. Furcal's speed makes up for his lack of good jumps on the ball many times, but he isn't a very good decision maker. If he is hurt in the slightest he doesn't make plays. He's a fast shortstop not a good shortstop. Huge difference. He is also bad with starting double plays. I've seen Furcal frozen while a ball Jeter at least stops goes by him for a hit. Furcal is a better athlete not a better shortstop.

JeffWeaverFan
11-10-05, 06:11 PM
Jeter is a gold glover.
Gold gloves mean nothing.

JeffWeaverFan
11-10-05, 06:14 PM
As for prospects, we have no good centerfield prospect coming up for at least 3 years. Melky Cabrera will not be a centerfielder, he does not have enough range (and we aren't even sure whether his offense will be major league level yet). Furcal strikes me as the type of player we are looking for for a long term CF solution. I guarantee he will have range, he is relatively young, and he can hit just fine for the position.
Brett Gardner will be ready in 2 to 3 years.

JeffWeaverFan
11-10-05, 06:18 PM
It worked with Armand...
Firstly, it did work out well with Robin Ventura. Secondly, Armando was never given a chance here. Torre used him in such a way that he could not succeed. He would constantly throw him out there for 2 innings even though Armando is much better as a 1 inning reliever and never does well in the 2nd inning of work. Had Torre used him properly, Armando could have been a very good reliever for us.

AJW
11-10-05, 06:22 PM
why not put jeter in cf?

That cracks me up. :lol:

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 06:23 PM
didnt Yount win a Gold Glove in Center too?

Rockin' Robin won 1 Gold Glove in '82 for SS. He won his 2nd MVP in '89 while playing CF.

Rich
11-10-05, 06:32 PM
Furcal is nowhere hear the shortstop Jeter is. Last year he finally got his errors under 20.

That's because he gets to balls that usually go "past a diving Jeter."

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 06:38 PM
Furcal is nowhere hear the shortstop Jeter is. Last year he finally got his errors under 20.

Hey, I love Jeter like everyone else. But I know when someone is just more talented. Furcal has a better arm, more speed, and more range. He doesn't look as fluid as Jeter when fielding, but he can everything jeter can do defensively a little better.

That said, Jeter still stays at SS!!!!

bakntime
11-10-05, 06:44 PM
Hey, I love Jeter like everyone else. But I know when someone is just more talented. Furcal has a better arm, more speed, and more range. He doesn't look as fluid as Jeter when fielding, but he can everything jeter can do defensively a little better.

That said, Jeter still stays at SS!!!!He doesn't have a better arm. That's one of the things Jeter has over Furcal. He's also prone to mental mistakes. He's flashy - but he's not an Omar Vizquel type. Furcal is quick, but his arm makes him more ideally a 2B.

I don't know, either, how well Furcal handles pop ups going back into the outfield and charging the slow grounder... two things that Jeter makes look easier than any SS I've seen in a while.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 06:48 PM
He doesn't have a better arm. That's one of the things Jeter has over Furcal. He's also prone to mental mistakes. He's flashy - but he's not an Omar Vizquel type. Furcal is quick, but his arm makes him more ideally a 2B.

I don't know, either, how well Furcal handles pop ups going back into the outfield and charging the slow grounder... two things that Jeter makes look easier than any SS I've seen in a while.

Props to the pop ups, slow rollers, and mental mistakes. (Good show)

But have you ever seen Furcal throw a friggin ball! Its amazing! he's really got a cannon!

scull567
11-10-05, 06:52 PM
FWIW, Hardball Times (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/2005-gold-gloves/) rates Furcal as very good - +32 runs!

Davios
11-10-05, 06:54 PM
He doesn't have a better arm. That's one of the things Jeter has over Furcal. He's also prone to mental mistakes. He's flashy - but he's not an Omar Vizquel type. Furcal is quick, but his arm makes him more ideally a 2B.

I don't know, either, how well Furcal handles pop ups going back into the outfield and charging the slow grounder... two things that Jeter makes look easier than any SS I've seen in a while.



You may love Jeter but it's obvious if you sinceely believe that Jeter has a better arm than Furcal you have never seen Furcal touch a baseball.

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 06:58 PM
FWIW, Hardball Times (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/2005-gold-gloves/) rates Furcal as very good - +32 runs!

Man, that scoring was rough on Jeter. How does Jeter be rated that bad and win the GG?

How do they even figure that #?

yanksphan
11-10-05, 07:01 PM
He doesn't have a better arm. That's one of the things Jeter has over Furcal. He's also prone to mental mistakes. He's flashy - but he's not an Omar Vizquel type. Furcal is quick, but his arm makes him more ideally a 2B.

Yeah, I gotta go with the majority here - Furcal's arm is absolutely amazing.

It's not even close between Jeter and Furcal.

yank4life2005
11-10-05, 07:15 PM
I am sure that Furcal would want a Renteria-type deal ..

4yr/40MM

cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 07:18 PM
Yeah, I gotta go with the majority here - Furcal's arm is absolutely amazing.

It's not even close between Jeter and Furcal.

And that's that. By the way, doesn't he have like 3 DUI's or something? This guy is not the type of player that the yankees need to get into another "marraige contract" with.

Jace
11-10-05, 07:31 PM
Brett Gardner will be ready in 2 to 3 years.

Or, using basic unit conversions, 2 to 3 mediocre stopgaps. And if I'm not mistaken, prospects at Gardner's level in the minors have a pretty low success ratio (success meaning becoming an everyday major-leaguer), even ones as talented as him.

I don't think saying we have no good in-house centerfield solutions developing for 3 years is too unreasonable.

nyctalopia
11-10-05, 07:44 PM
4/40 with a 5th year option based on incentives. That should be enough and the Yankees should do it.

Rich
11-10-05, 07:49 PM
Or, using basic unit conversions, 2 to 3 mediocre stopgaps. And if I'm not mistaken, prospects at Gardner's level in the minors have a pretty low success ratio (success meaning becoming an everyday major-leaguer), even ones as talented as him.

I don't think saying we have no good in-house centerfield solutions developing for 3 years is too unreasonable.

Melky will be ready within a year, and won't be a stopgap.

RhodeyYankee2638
11-10-05, 07:49 PM
Furcal in center is extremely out of the box, and I think I like it. a 4 year deal would be fine. his contract would be up when he is only 32, and perhaps with an option for a 5th year. Furcal is extremely atheltic, and would be a decent defensive outfielder with a gun in the outfield, an absolute canon. Get this deal done ASAP, so he can start learning his position. Best part is, we get to keep our prospects, where as if we get Wilkerson (which I also wouldnt mind), we'd most likely have to give up a couple of our prospects

RhodeyYankee2638
11-10-05, 07:51 PM
Melky will be ready within a year, and won't be a stopgap.

Sheffield is going to be gone next year, most likely, or a fulltime DH. It would be nice if he coould take over in right, have 2 solid CF's patrolling 2/3's of the field, perhaps

Rich
11-10-05, 07:56 PM
Sheffield is going to be gone next year, most likely, or a fulltime DH. It would be nice if he coould take over in right, have 2 solid CF's patrolling 2/3's of the field, perhaps

I would prefer that if Sheff stays in '06 that it be as a DH.

JeffWeaverFan
11-10-05, 07:57 PM
I am sure that Furcal would want a Renteria-type deal ..

4yr/40MM
He's going to want more than that.

RhodeyYankee2638
11-10-05, 07:58 PM
I would prefer that if Sheff stays in '06 that it be as a DH.

Oh I agree. I was saying that if we happened to sign Furcal (or some other CF..) to a long term deal, Melky could always come to play RF next year

buntsalot2
11-10-05, 08:07 PM
geez...

next will be a motion on the floor to move Duncan to the OF!!!! hmmm..... :P :P

ieddyi
11-10-05, 08:27 PM
I would prefer that if Sheff stays in '06 that it be as a DH.

We have an option on SHeff for '07 @ 13M already- it's our choice. THat might cut down on some of his whining for an extension (probably not)

yank4life2005
11-10-05, 08:37 PM
We have an option on SHeff for '07 @ 13M already- it's our choice. THat might cut down on some of his whining for an extension (probably not)

Sheff will be crying around Spring Training for George to pick it up.

Jace
11-10-05, 09:53 PM
Melky will be ready within a year, and won't be a stopgap.

I haven't read a scouting report yet that says he will be able to play a passable CF. Everyone says he doesn't have the speed/jumps, leading to a poor range and a likely corner outfield role. And whether or not he will consistently hit on the level of a major league starter is yet to be seen.

bronxbomberz212
11-10-05, 09:55 PM
wow... u know cashman is a riot. i love this guy, he thinks of everything. before i knew about cano i had a bit of a love affair with furcal, but then cano came into the pic and i thought there'd never be a remote possibility of seeing furcal in pinstripes, but brian has managed to think the impossible yet again, here's to brian and his unconventional ideas... and here's to hoping furcal can learn the position and sign with us. hell yeah!!!!

Rich
11-10-05, 10:02 PM
I haven't read a scouting report yet that says he will be able to play a passable CF. Everyone says he doesn't have the speed/jumps, leading to a poor range and a likely corner outfield role. And whether or not he will consistently hit on the level of a major league starter is yet to be seen.

I have only read one report that he projects as a LFer, and I don't buy it.

terminator
11-10-05, 10:03 PM
Sign Furcal and put him in CF, sign Nomar and make him the DH/1B, and then get Pokey Reese as a backup infielder.

This needs to happen.

vin777b
11-10-05, 10:18 PM
I haven't read a scouting report yet that says he will be able to play a passable CF. Everyone says he doesn't have the speed/jumps, leading to a poor range and a likely corner outfield role. And whether or not he will consistently hit on the level of a major league starter is yet to be seen.




what he said.

and Gardner is probably 2 yrs away. Sign Furcal.

NewEraYanks2527
11-10-05, 11:03 PM
Sign Furcal and put him in CF, sign Nomar and make him the DH/1B, and then get Pokey Reese as a backup infielder.

This needs to happen.

Out of curiousity why do you want Nomar?

YankeePride1967
11-10-05, 11:05 PM
Out of curiousity why do you want Nomar?

Sarcasm.

wileedog
11-10-05, 11:05 PM
Melky will be ready within a year, and won't be a stopgap.


Melky will never be a ML CFer, IMO.

yanksphan
11-10-05, 11:05 PM
Out of curiousity why do you want Nomar?

He's a Red Sox fan poking fun at the Yankees' apparant love for a SS at every position.

Rich
11-10-05, 11:06 PM
Melky will never be a ML CFer.

He has a much, much better chance of being a ML CFer than Furcal does of ever being a Yankee.

wileedog
11-10-05, 11:07 PM
He has a much, much better chance of being a ML CFer than Furcal does of ever being a Yankee.

That may also be true.

Rich
11-10-05, 11:09 PM
That may also be true.

And it's also true that if the Yankees somehow signed Furcal, it would be laughable if Jeter was the one to play SS.

JDPNYY
11-10-05, 11:11 PM
Melky will be ready within a year, and won't be a stopgap.

I heard an interview with Bill Masse (Trenton Thunder Manager) where he said Melky will be a Major League multi-year batting champ. He said he would advise the Yankee Front Office to turn down any trade offer that involved Melky.

wileedog
11-10-05, 11:14 PM
And it's also true that if the Yankees somehow signed Furcal, it would be laughable if Jeter was the one to play SS.

Its laughable right now that he's not at 3rd.

Just sayin.....

27IsNext
11-10-05, 11:26 PM
Melky will be ready within a year, and won't be a stopgap.

Melky will learn to walk and develop legit corner OFer power within a year?

porsche986
11-10-05, 11:39 PM
Here is what <a href="http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/columnists/askba05july.html">Jim Callis had to say about Melky Cabrera on July 27, 2005</a> (emphasis mine):


How would you rank the following Yankees center-field prospects in terms of their long-term ability and potential: Tim Battle, Melky Cabrera, Estee Harris, C.J. Henry and Austin Jackson?

Noel Hirsch
Hartsdale, N.Y.

Finding a center fielder remains an ongoing concern for the Yankees, but none of these guys is going to solve the problem in the near future. The top prospect of the group is Cabrera, who has performed well all the way up through Triple-A while the others have accomplished little yet and haven't climbed above low Class A.

Cabrera doesn't have the ability to play center field in the majors, and he struggled defensively when New York tried to use him as a big league band-aid. What he can do is hit, and I see him as a .280/.335/.450 corner outfielder. He has average speed and enough arm strength to play right field. As a bonus, he's a switch-hitter and he's still just 20, so he has plenty of time to develop more power than I'm projecting.

If I were trading with the Yankees, and they offered me any of those players, I'd quickly take Cabrera because he's so much closer to the big leagues and a much safer bet to produce. But in terms of pure ceiling and tools, he doesn't compare to the others, all of whom are outstanding athletes. I don't think Battle or Harris ever will hit enough, however, and Henry and Jackson (both 2005 draft picks who could have played college basketball) have just 128 complex league at-bats between them.

Ranking all five as prospects, I'd order them like this: Cabrera, Henry, Jackson, Battle and Harris. Harris didn't make our Yankees Top 30 in the 2005 Prospect Handbook, and he won't make next year's edition either.

You have to be happy about the fact if he can put up .280/.335/.450 in his career. I don't think he will be able to do this right away. He seems to me to be at least another year away.

Rich
11-10-05, 11:42 PM
Baseball America has a prejudice against Yankee prospects.

JeffWeaverFan
11-10-05, 11:43 PM
what he said.

and Gardner is probably 2 yrs away. Sign Furcal.
If Gardner will be ready in 2 years, why would we sign Furcal to the likely 5 year deal it would take?

27IsNext
11-10-05, 11:50 PM
Baseball America has a prejudice against Yankee prospects.

Isn't that because they've been overrun by Sox fans?

ring403
11-11-05, 12:18 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/11/sports/baseball/11yanks.html
Cashman said he had spoken with Paul Kinzer, who represents the free-agent shortstop Rafael Furcal, about Furcal's interest in playing center, but added that he did not expect to pursue Furcal because it would cost them too much money for what would amount to an audition.

A more intriguing possibility would be Aaron Rowand, the White Sox center fielder who thwarted the Yankees with outstanding defense during an August series at Yankee Stadium. The White Sox have their top prospect, Brian Anderson, in waiting, and the Yankees would be interested in Rowand if he were available.

porsche986
11-11-05, 12:18 AM
Baseball America has a prejudice against Yankee prospects.


Isn't that because they've been overrun by Sox fans?

Why would Callis or anyone on BA risk their credibility? It's a fair assessment. You may not agree with it, but I think it's unfair to cry Yankee prejudice against anyone who doesn't rate every Yankee prospect as the next Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens.

Rich
11-11-05, 12:23 AM
Why would Callis or anyone on BA risk their credibility? It's a fair assessment. You may not agree with it, but I think it's unfair to cry Yankee prejudice against anyone who doesn't rate every Yankee prospect as the next Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens.

You'd have to ask him, but he does so with impugnity every time he discusses the Yankees' farm system.

porsche986
11-11-05, 12:30 AM
You'd have to ask him, but he does so with impugnity every time he discusses the Yankees' farm system.

I think both you and I know the answer if I ask him that question :). I would have thought you would be extremely happy with a prediction like that. I would love to have a Melky in the Sox system if he could put up those numbers. I don't have to tell you the success rate of prospects. But then again, what do I know? You were spot on with Cano!

27IsNext
11-11-05, 12:40 AM
Why would Callis or anyone on BA risk their credibility? It's a fair assessment. You may not agree with it, but I think it's unfair to cry Yankee prejudice against anyone who doesn't rate every Yankee prospect as the next Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens.

Have you ever actually watched any of their chats? The anti-Yankee bias is so apparant, it's not even funny.

And it's not that they're always wrong. Half the time, I agree with their assessment. But they continually miss the boat as far as true worth. For example, they blasted Gardner because he lacks power, even though Gardner is a great defender and looks to be a Juan Pierre type, which is valuable provided the player can get on base.

If Gardner were in the Sox's system, I garuntee you they'd be raving about Gardner.

Yankee Clipper
11-11-05, 12:40 AM
Its laughable right now that he's not at 3rd.

Just sayin.....

He'd be better in the OF, especially in CF. He gets such good reads on flyballs (Boston play last year and over Cano this year), plus has a hell of an arm. Jeter's problem is his first step on a groundball, which would make him a terrible 3rd. If Furcal is signed (which is unlikely), then someone should have the sack to tell Jeter to move to CF where he can win multiple GGs.

terminator
11-11-05, 12:43 AM
Why would Callis or anyone on BA risk their credibility? It's a fair assessment. You may not agree with it, but I think it's unfair to cry Yankee prejudice against anyone who doesn't rate every Yankee prospect as the next Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens.

Personally, I haven't read enough of his stuff - nor do I really know much about the
minor league prospects around the league - to judge whether he is biased or not.
But for conspiracy theory lovers, Callis is a member of the SOSH site, so you can run with that.

Panamaniac42
11-11-05, 12:56 AM
He'd be better in the OF, especially in CF. He gets such good reads on flyballs (Boston play last year and over Cano this year), plus has a hell of an arm. Jeter's problem is his first step on a groundball, which would make him a terrible 3rd. If Furcal is signed (which is unlikely), then someone should have the sack to tell Jeter to move to CF where he can win multiple GGs.


Uhhh....AL SS GG 2 years running now. So yeah he's already winning multiple GGs where he is. Yes?

I always get a kick out of this Jeter to CF stuff.

ABQyankfan
11-11-05, 12:58 AM
For whatever it's worth, this is Bill James' take on position transition:

The defensive spectrum looks like this:


<TT> [ - - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C - - ]</TT> with the basic premise being that positions at the right end of the spectrum are more difficult than the positions at the left end of the spectrum. Players can generally move from right to left along the specturm successfully during their careers</PRE>

Notes</PRE>
True shortage of talent almost never occurs at the left end of the defensive spectrum.
Rightward shifts along the defensive spectrum almost never work.

wileedog
11-11-05, 01:02 AM
He'd be better in the OF, especially in CF. He gets such good reads on flyballs (Boston play last year and over Cano this year), plus has a hell of an arm. Jeter's problem is his first step on a groundball, which would make him a terrible 3rd. If Furcal is signed (which is unlikely), then someone should have the sack to tell Jeter to move to CF where he can win multiple GGs.


I think Furcal is an outside shot at best. I really wouldn't count on it at all.

That being said, I still would have switched Jeter to 3rd when we got A-Rod, because A-ROd is that much of a better defensive shortstop than Jeter, and SS is a far more important position.

Yankee Clipper
11-11-05, 01:11 AM
I think Furcal is an outside shot at best. I really wouldn't count on it at all.

That being said, I still would have switched Jeter to 3rd when we got A-Rod, because A-ROd is that much of a better defensive shortstop than Jeter, and SS is a far more important position.

Yeah I agree with that, but I think with Arod at 3rd it helps out Jeter tremendously, hence the reason he's been getting these GGs. With Jeter at 3rd and Arod at SS, we'd have a hell of a SS and I'm not so sure about 3rd, probably terrible at best. Who knows though, as its not an issue.

wileedog
11-11-05, 01:16 AM
Yeah I agree with that, but I think with Arod at 3rd it helps out Jeter tremendously, hence the reason he's been getting these GGs. With Jeter at 3rd and Arod at SS, we'd have a hell of a SS and I'm not so sure about 3rd, probably terrible at best. Who knows though, as its not an issue.

I think Jeter would have adjusted fine at 3rd. He has quick hands, charges the ball well, and has a solid arm.

The barehand thing may be something new, but other than that I don't think he would exactly have embarassed himself there. He's too good an athlete.

Not an issue though, as you say.

JapanJobbers
11-11-05, 04:30 AM
Uhhh....AL SS GG 2 years running now. So yeah he's already winning multiple GGs where he is. Yes?

I always get a kick out of this Jeter to CF stuff.

I don't care about GGs, I want good defense. Jeter isn't as bad as he used to be, but he's hardly near the top.

Allan
11-11-05, 08:59 AM
Definately would be nice. With all the names thrown around this offseason....Giles,Abreu,Furcal,Damon,Pierre,Wilk.,Preston, it's hard to keep track.

Picking up Bobby with Matsui and Sheff (DH)...I don't care if they put Bubba in Center.
Heck, with that lineup just pound a stick in dead center and put a glove on top of it.

They tried the stick thing last season..... didn't work out so well.

ring403
11-11-05, 09:05 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/364549p-310390c.html
However, that's not the Yanks' ideal scenario, and they're mulling all types of other possible alternatives. Cashman half-jokingly mentioned to Rafael Furcal's agent, Adam Katz, that the free agent shortstop is so quick he'd probably be a great center fielder but clarified that statement to reporters yesterday, saying that the amount of money Furcal will command would be too much to pay for an "audition" of a player at a position he's never played. "We're not pursuing him to be a center fielder," Cashman said.

ojo
11-11-05, 09:06 AM
Baseball America has a prejudice against Yankee prospects.


Isn't that because they've been overrun by Sox fans?


Why would Callis or anyone on BA risk their credibility? It's a fair assessment. You may not agree with it, but I think it's unfair to cry Yankee prejudice against anyone who doesn't rate every Yankee prospect as the next Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens.


Have you ever actually watched any of their chats? The anti-Yankee bias is so apparant, it's not even funny.

And it's not that they're always wrong. Half the time, I agree with their assessment. But they continually miss the boat as far as true worth. For example, they blasted Gardner because he lacks power, even though Gardner is a great defender and looks to be a Juan Pierre type, which is valuable provided the player can get on base.

If Gardner were in the Sox's system, I garuntee you they'd be raving about Gardner.


i would also say there's an inherent bias against the yankees present in baseball prospectus.

gdn
11-11-05, 09:17 AM
So these Furcal to center rumors seem to be unfounded or at the very least, not going anywhere?

32elston
11-11-05, 12:58 PM
Clearly Furcal is a better athlete and will make some great plays, but it is not just about what a player does when the ball is hit to them. That player needs to be in position when other things are happening like that play against Oakland in the playoffs. A-Rod and DJ are much smarter shortstops. Furcal would be the third choice. His entire game is based on outrun and outhrow. You can't do that on every play. Furcal gets a nagging injury and he is useless. You also have to take into account that ATL has been using much better defensive 1st basemen, that makes up for lots of mistakes. LaRoche may never be an all-star but he can dig the ball, Giambi can't. If we pay for Furcal and he hurts his legs, we have an expensive guy that won't get hits anymore, can't steal bases and can't play defense. If DJ or A-Rod had the same injuries they are still good enough fundamentally to be able to play the game well, maybe not at short but they would still be useful even as DH's if nothing else. Do you remember when SI said Christian Guzman was the worst shortstop? Go back and see who they also gave consideration to for that spot.

DJ27
11-11-05, 02:09 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/364549p-310390c.html

This pretty much ends this thread. It was fun while it lasted! :D :D

mhmajp
11-11-05, 02:56 PM
Melky will be ready within a year, and won't be a stopgap.

Isn't Melky a corner OF?

gdn
11-11-05, 03:02 PM
Isn't Melky a corner OF?No. CF.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-11-05, 03:05 PM
Too expensive and too risky, pass...

Wang's Groundballs
11-11-05, 03:05 PM
No. CF.

A lot of people think he'll end up in a corner spot, though.

BJG
11-11-05, 03:05 PM
No. CF.

Currently. Many view an eventual move to a corner as necessary. The question then becomes, will he hit enough to justify that?

Wang's Groundballs
11-11-05, 03:10 PM
Currently. Many view an eventual move to a corner as necessary. The question then becomes, will he hit enough to justify that?

He'll have to live up to the Jose Vidro comp. BA has throw around before and play excellent defense.

BJG
11-11-05, 03:16 PM
Clearly Furcal is a better athlete and will make some great plays, but it is not just about what a player does when the ball is hit to them. That player needs to be in position when other things are happening like that play against Oakland in the playoffs. A-Rod and DJ are much smarter shortstops. Furcal would be the third choice. His entire game is based on outrun and outhrow. You can't do that on every play. Furcal gets a nagging injury and he is useless. You also have to take into account that ATL has been using much better defensive 1st basemen, that makes up for lots of mistakes. LaRoche may never be an all-star but he can dig the ball, Giambi can't. If we pay for Furcal and he hurts his legs, we have an expensive guy that won't get hits anymore, can't steal bases and can't play defense. If DJ or A-Rod had the same injuries they are still good enough fundamentally to be able to play the game well, maybe not at short but they would still be useful even as DH's if nothing else. Do you remember when SI said Christian Guzman was the worst shortstop? Go back and see who they also gave consideration to for that spot.

1. The job of a defender is to make as many outs as possible. Furcal historically makes substantially more than Jeter.

2. What evidence is there that Jeter's play does not suffer from injuries? His defense, for example, was horrible following his shoulder injury.

3. Giambi has no range at first. Giambi certainly can't throw anymore. What Giambi can do is receive. In addition, Furcal has had any number of first baseman in his time at Atlanta. Is it your contention that they were all gold glove caliber?

mhmajp
11-11-05, 03:29 PM
FWIW, Hardball Times (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/2005-gold-gloves/) rates Furcal as very good - +32 runs!

I'm not totally following this:

"In 2004, Yankees pitchers allowed 2,027 ground balls. Based on the amount of balls put into play by left-handed and right-handed batters against the Yankees, I expected Yankee shortstops to make 450 assists. Derek Jeter played 93% of defensive innings played by the Yankees, so I expected him to have 419 assists. Jeter actually had 392 assists."

Shouldn't the system look at how many balls were <i>actually</i> hit to Jeter and how many of those were converted to assists versus how many should have been hit to him and how many assists he had?

Wang's Groundballs
11-11-05, 03:31 PM
I'm not totally following this:

Shouldn't the system look at how many balls were <i>actually</i> hit to Jeter and how many of those were converted to assists versus how many should have been hit to him and how many assists he had?

To find that out you need PBP data which is generally upwards of $10,000 a season. Range does a decent job of estimating how many balls a player should have gotten to, but like you suggest, metrics that look at acutal balls hit to the fielder (like ZR and UZR) are much more accurate.

mhmajp
11-11-05, 03:43 PM
No. CF.

Yeah, sorry, dumb question on my part. What I'd really been asking was: Isn't he now being projected as a corner OF?

mhmajp
11-11-05, 03:44 PM
To find that out you need PBP data which is generally upwards of $10,000 a season. Range does a decent job of estimating how many balls a player should have gotten to, but like you suggest, metrics that look at acutal balls hit to the fielder (like ZR and UZR) are much more accurate.

Got it. Thanks.

Iknowcool
11-11-05, 06:14 PM
Sign Furcal to play second base. Move Cano to first or left, where his average range won't hurt him as much. Let Matsui walk as a freeagent. I know Matsuis good, but I'd take Furcal over him any day of the week.

BobbyMurcerFan
11-11-05, 06:59 PM
For whatever it's worth, this is Bill James' take on position transition:

The defensive spectrum looks like this:


<TT> [ - - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C - - ]</TT> with the basic premise being that positions at the right end of the spectrum are more difficult than the positions at the left end of the spectrum. Players can generally move from right to left along the specturm successfully during their careers</PRE>

Notes</PRE>
True shortage of talent almost never occurs at the left end of the defensive spectrum.
Rightward shifts along the defensive spectrum almost never work.
Thanks for your post. But if Bill James is really saying this, he's lost it.

A C can generally play CF? :wtf: (Is Bill James aware of the fact that CF requires speed and catchers are usually slow?)


A 2B can generally play RF? :looking: (Is Bill James aware of the fact that 2Bman usually have weak arms and RF requires a strong arm?)


A CF can generally play 3B? :uhh: (Is Bill James aware of the fact that these positions have almost no overlap in terms of what they require from a defender?)

BobbyMurcerFan
11-11-05, 07:16 PM
Sign Furcal to play second base. Move Cano to first or left, where his average range won't hurt him as much. Let Matsui walk as a freeagent. I know Matsuis good, but I'd take Furcal over him any day of the week.... trade Sheff for Cameron, put Wang in RF, move Jaret Wright into the closer role, make Mo the fourth OFer, flip-flop Jeter and A-Rod, convert Posada into a starter, sign Bernie as catcher...

Yankeeah
11-11-05, 07:18 PM
... trade Sheff for Cameron, put Wang in RF, move Jaret Wright into the closer role, make Mo the fourth OFer, flip-flop Jeter and A-Rod, convert Posada into a starter, sign Bernie as catcher...

Dude, thats so stupid. Wang in RF? That's wasting his range. Put him in center. My god, how could you even type that?

MisterNovember
11-11-05, 07:20 PM
Thanks for your post. But if Bill James is really saying this, he's lost it.

A C can generally play CF? :wtf: (Is Bill James aware of the fact that CF requires speed and catchers are usually slow?)


A 2B can generally play RF? :looking: (Is Bill James aware of the fact that 2Bman usually have weak arms and RF requires a strong arm?)


A CF can generally play 3B? :uhh: (Is Bill James aware of the fact that these positions have almost no overlap in terms of what they require from a defender?)

You're missing the point. The idea is that the positions on the right end of the spectrum are MORE DIFFICULT to play than positions on the left. This is not necessarily assuming that a catcher will become a CFer, for the obvious reasons you point out. Rafael Furcal, for example, might start his career as a SS, become a CFer in the middle of his career, and end his career as a corner OFer.

BobbyMurcerFan
11-11-05, 07:22 PM
Dude, thats so stupid. Wang in RF? That's wasting his range. Put him in center. My god, how could you even type that?Sorry, my bad ;).

BobbyMurcerFan
11-11-05, 07:23 PM
You're missing the point. The idea is that the positions on the right end of the spectrum are MORE DIFFICULT to play than positions on the left. This is not necessarily assuming that a catcher will become a CFer, for the obvious reasons you point out. Rafael Furcal, for example, might start his career as a SS, become a CFer in the middle of his career, and end his career as a corner OFer.You're missing my point:

"Players can generally move from right to left along the specturm successfully during their careers"

The immediately above statement is bs.

scull567
11-11-05, 07:32 PM
You're missing my point:

"Players can generally move from right to left along the specturm successfully during their careers"

The immediately above statement is bs.

Its not true in all cases, but generally if a player moves positions as he ages - it is to the left on the spectrum, hardly ever to the right. Of course there are exceptions as you pointed out.

32elston
11-11-05, 09:09 PM
There are several good players that moved fro less athletic positions to more athletic positions Dale Murphy moved from catcher to outfield, Biggio from catcher to 2b to OF, Ron Gant from 3b OF, David Justice from 1b to RF, the list goes on, but most players that do that came up in the organization and are moved out of necessity. You don't sign a free-agent to play an unfamiliar position. It may work, but if it doesn't it is your fault for signing him. Let's get a CF. If we want to manufacture one let's do that in the minors not at the ML level.

JeffWeaverFan
11-11-05, 09:32 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/364549p-310390c.html
Good to know. I still think Milton Bradley is the best option.

jimmykey2
11-11-05, 09:41 PM
Good to know. I still think Milton Bradley is the best option.


Because Bradley has accomplished what in the last few years other than get hurt? IMO, Bradley isn't consistent enough in any phase of his game to be in pinstripes. The only good thing is that it would cost little to acquire him.

New Murderer's Row
11-11-05, 11:09 PM
And it's also true that if the Yankees somehow signed Furcal, it would be laughable if Jeter was the one to play SS.

how many gold gloves does furcal have? he may have a strong arm but he is going to boot more plays than jeter will. even if furcal is better jeter is an above average shortstop.

and more importantly, wouldn't furcal (with the stronger arm and the greater speed) be a better centerfielder than jeter? according to his agent (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2221393) furcal wants $50 million for 5-6 years. at 25, where furcal will fill the yankees biggest need without having to trade prospects, i think that'd be money well spent.

Captain Yankee
11-11-05, 11:20 PM
Furcal has a great arm. However, he does throw away a lot of balls. I would be very interested to see him in center field. We also know he is a great leadoff hitter.

BobbyMurcerFan
11-11-05, 11:30 PM
Its not true in all cases, but generally if a player moves positions as he ages - it is to the left on the spectrum, hardly ever to the right. Of course there are exceptions as you pointed out.It's just a foolish simplification that really has no use.

For example, how could C be all the way to the right, which indicates that a catcher can play EVERY OTHER position on the field? That's patently absurd.

And even the implication that catcher is most difficult defensive position is misleading. Different positions require different skills, sometimes vastly different. To use a football illustration, I believe that playing offensive line is more difficult than cornerback, but does that mean as linemen age they can become DB's? Could this ever happen? Similarly, could ANY aged ML catcher ever become a credible SS, CF, etc.?

While I do believe that Bill James has helped us all better understand the game of baseball, I also believe he often lives on a fantasy world; I sincerely hope he becomes the Red Sox's next GM.

ppa79
11-12-05, 07:46 PM
I'll pass. 5yrs/50M. I wonder what GM will be stupid enough to give him that contract.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2221393

BJG
11-12-05, 08:01 PM
I'll pass. 5yrs/50M. I wonder what GM will be stupid enough to give him that contract.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2221393

In terms of agent demands at the beginning of free agency, that actually sounds somewhat reasonable (not that I'd pay it, but someone will) when you consider what the 3 shortstops on the market got last year and that Furcal is the only guy in this year's market.

BJG
11-12-05, 08:04 PM
It's just a foolish simplification that really has no use.

For example, how could C be all the way to the right, which indicates that a catcher can play EVERY OTHER position on the field? That's patently absurd.

And even the implication that catcher is most difficult defensive position is misleading. Different positions require different skills, sometimes vastly different. To use a football illustration, I believe that playing offensive line is more difficult than cornerback, but does that mean as linemen age they can become DB's? Could this ever happen? Similarly, could ANY aged ML catcher ever become a credible SS, CF, etc.?

While I do believe that Bill James has helped us all better understand the game of baseball, I also believe he often lives on a fantasy world; I sincerely hope he becomes the Red Sox's next GM.

Course, all one would really have to do is read the writings that went along with the introduction of the defensive spectrum to know that your above point was acknowledged and addressed from the very beginning. It seems that many of the problems that folks seem to have with James, even in the mainstream media, come from misunderstanding or not reading the whole thing or making assumptions that aren't true or misattributing something he had nothing to do with to him.

In a nutshell, there are 2 points re the defensive spectrum:

1. Shifts to the right almost never work
2. There is never a shortage of talent on the far left (in other words, you can always find a DH or 1B type)

The assumption, based on point 1, is therefore that shifts to the left do work. Obviously, they don't. James never said they did. However, given appropriate physical tools (like enough speed to cover the outfield), they 'generally' work, which is what he did say.

StatenIslandYankee
11-12-05, 08:15 PM
I wonder how REALISTIC this is

BJG
11-12-05, 08:50 PM
and more importantly, wouldn't furcal (with the stronger arm and the greater speed) be a better centerfielder than jeter?

Given that he's a better shortstop, yes, he would likely be a better centerfielder. However, it's not really that simple, as there are differences in the numbers of chances at each position, etc. So while Furcal might be 5 runs or so better in center than Jeter, he might be 15 runs or so better at short.

BobbyMurcerFan
11-12-05, 09:13 PM
...
In a nutshell, there are 2 points re the defensive spectrum:

1. Shifts to the right almost never work
2. There is never a shortage of talent on the far left (in other words, you can always find a DH or 1B type)

The assumption, based on point 1, is therefore that shifts to the left do work. Obviously, they don't. James never said they did. However, given appropriate physical tools (like enough speed to cover the outfield), they 'generally' work, which is what he did say.These two points just aren't true. For example, the Yankees have been looking for a DH for years and have yet to find a good one. The best they did was David Justice for part of a season. The Mets have been looking for a 1Bman for how long? If first base were so easy to fill Martinez, Olerud & Clark wouldn't still be in business. And these aren't isolated cases.

What I dis like the most about Bill James-isms like the "Defensive Spectrum" is the theory begins to replace reality for a good number of people. For example, how many people said "Clutch doesn't exist" simply because Bill James said as much. But earlier this year he said clutch may indeed exist, so now all the Bill James disciples have to readjust their view of reality for the possibility that some players may actually be clutch.

And to honest, sometimes I think these things were just made haphazardly. Here, I'll take a stab at it:


The BobbyMurcerFan NYYFans Three Dimensional Defensive Crystal,
a.k.a. BMFNYYF3DDC

First Dimension: Intra-Infield Latice Moves
SS may radiate to 2B with a high confidence interval.
SS may radiate to 3B with a medium confidence interval.
C, SS, 2B may raditate to 1B with a medium confidence interval.
3B may radiate to 1B with a high confidence interval.

Second Dimension: Intra-Outfield Latice Moves
CF may radiate to LF with a high confidence interval.
RF may radiate to LF with a medium confidence interval.

Third Dimension: Inter-Infied-Outfield Latice Moves
SS and 2B may radiate to LF with a medium confidence interval.

:D ;) :P

BJG
11-12-05, 09:37 PM
These two points just aren't true. For example, the Yankees have been looking for a DH for years and have yet to find a good one. The best they did was David Justice for part of a season. The Mets have been looking for a 1Bman for how long? If first base were so easy to fill Martinez, Olerud & Clark wouldn't still be in business. And these aren't isolated cases.

What I dis like the most about Bill James-isms like the "Defensive Spectrum" is the theory begins to replace reality for a good number of people. For example, how many people said "Clutch doesn't exist" simply because Bill James said as much. But earlier this year he said clutch may indeed exist, so now all the Bill James disciples have to readjust their view of reality for the possibility that some players may actually be clutch.

And to honest, sometimes I think these things were just made haphazardly. Here, I'll take a stab at it:


The BobbyMurcerFan NYYFans Three Dimensional Defensive Crystal,
a.k.a. BMFNYYF3DDC

First Dimension: Intra-Infield Latice Moves
SS may radiate to 2B with a high confidence interval.
SS may radiate to 3B with a medium confidence interval.
C, SS, 2B may raditate to 1B with a medium confidence interval.
3B may radiate to 1B with a high confidence interval.

Second Dimension: Intra-Outfield Latice Moves
CF may radiate to LF with a high confidence interval.
RF may radiate to LF with a medium confidence interval.

Third Dimension: Inter-Infied-Outfield Latice Moves
SS and 2B may radiate to LF with a medium confidence interval.

:D ;) :P


1. The fact that the Yankees and Mets have made poor personnel decisions does not disprove James' point. In fact, it's part of the reason he made it. There were any number of options for the Yankees last year, be they in the minors or the majors, even if they were a short term veteran minor league solution, that were likely better than Tino last year. The problem is, teams tend to not seek those guys out because it's less risky to go with a name people know. When he fails as expected, it's a lot smaller pr issue than if you take a chance on a guy and he fails as unexpected.

2. You're just making my point. Rather than attack James for people misinterpreting what he has said, I'd prefer that you actually go out and understand what it is that he said for yourself. Someone else misinterpreting something and then repeating that misinterpretation is not the problem of the originator of the concept.

3. You're making my point again, because not only does "Underestimating the Fog" not say that clutch hitting might exist (it says that the method used by Cramer and others to show it didn't exist was flawed...there's a big difference), but most of the sabermetric community disagrees with James' article.

3. Provide me historical data backing up your theory and you'll have the starting point for a discussion. Despite your contention, this stuff did not come out of a vacuum, especially the early stuff like the defensive spectrum. In addition, in the years since, the contentions have been elaborated on, studied, tested, etc. by others and either tossed out or modfified by the community as a whole based on the results. In terms of defense, there has been play by play study to try and establish the average effect on defense players undergo moving position to position, and it backs up James' basic pretense.

BobbyMurcerFan
11-12-05, 09:48 PM
... Provide me historical data backing up your theory and you'll have the starting point for a discussion. Despite your contention, this stuff did not come out of a vacuum, especially the early stuff like the defensive spectrum. In addition, in the years since, the contentions have been elaborated on, studied, tested, etc. by others and either tossed out or modfified by the community as a whole based on the results. In terms of defense, there has been play by play study to try and establish the average effect on defense players undergo moving position to position, and it backs up James' basic pretense.And you are proving my point. Just b/c I don't have historical data to back up what I'm saying doesn't mean it's meritless or not discussion worthy.

In fact, it should be fairly obivous that I matched skill sets for the different positions pretty well (better than James' Defensive Matrix did, if I may be so bold).

You don't need historical data to tell you that Jorge Posada has a pretty good shot of making the switch to 1B but probably not to any other position (except maybe 3B). You just need to have a handle on the game played right in front of your eyes and the skills needed to play it (BTW, I'm NOT saying you lack this ;) :)).

BJG
11-12-05, 09:54 PM
And you are proving my point. Just b/c I don't have historical data to back up what I'm saying doesn't mean it's meritless or not discussion worthy.

In fact, it should be fairly obivous that I matched skill sets for the different positions pretty well (better than James' Defensive Matrix did, if I may be so bold).

You don't need historical data to tell you that Jorge Posada has a pretty good shot of making the switch to 1B but probably not to any other position (except maybe 3B). You just need to have a handle on the game played right in front of your eyes and the skills needed to play it (BTW, I'm NOT saying you lack this ;) :)).

Yes, frankly, you do need historical data, because you tried to place a quantifier on each position move. Without it, we've got nothing to discuss other than your opinion. Your opinion, just as frankly, means squat in comparison to what has actually happened over the course of baseball history. How many SS have moved to 2B? What have been the results?

BobbyMurcerFan
11-12-05, 10:18 PM
Yes, frankly, you do need historical data, because you tried to place a quantifier on each position move. Without it, we've got nothing to discuss other than your opinion. Your opinion, just as frankly, means squat in comparison to what has actually happened over the course of baseball history. How many SS have moved to 2B? What have been the results?This reply speaks volumes to my point. To summarily throw out opinions unaccompanied by statistical analysis of years of historical data is a very narrowing way to view the game of basebal, or the world, IMHO.

BJG
11-12-05, 10:24 PM
This reply speaks volumes to my point. To summarily throw out opinions unaccompanied by statistical analysis of years of historical data is a very narrowing way to view the game of basebal, or the world, IMHO.

I'm not throwing it out. I'm shelving it until you prove it. That's kind of the basis of most Western thought. Descartes didn't write, ""Je pense, donc je suis" and leave it for other people to discuss. He wrote Discourse on Method.

BobbyMurcerFan
11-12-05, 10:38 PM
I'm not throwing it out. I'm shelving it until you prove it. That's kind of the basis of most Western thought. Descartes didn't write, ""Je pense, donc je suis" and leave it for other people to discuss. He wrote Discourse on Method.Again, this just illustrates my point. You don't need to meet a cartesian standard to have an opinion worthy of consideration, i.e. not being shelved.

BJG
11-12-05, 10:44 PM
Again, this just illustrates my point. You don't need to meet a cartesian standard to have an opinion worthy of consideration, i.e. not being shelved.

Shelving it doesn't mean its not worthy of consideration, just that it's not my job to do the legwork. If you believe it to be true, work on it. However, there are so many misconceptions in baseball, you can't expect anyone to take an opinion with no backing at face value and not question it anymore.

BobbyMurcerFan
11-12-05, 11:00 PM
Shelving it doesn't mean its not worthy of consideration, just that it's not my job to do the legwork. If you believe it to be true, work on it. However, there are so many misconceptions in baseball, you can't expect anyone to take an opinion with no backing at face value and not question it anymore.I explained the logic behind it. Look at the skills required to play the different positions and find the other positions that require somewhat similar skill sets. E.g. LF requires reasonable speed and an adequate arm. That's why the switch from CF to LF is pretty common. 1B and C both require little range (compared to the other positions) and an ability to catch the ball. That's why the switch from C to 1B is fairly common. I could go on, but it's fairly obvious.

Would historical quantiative analysis help? Sure it would. But it doesn't take a database to say SS and 2B demand roughly the same skills but 2B requires less of an arm, so the move from SS to 2B should not be too difficult?

If you are going to wait for a hundred years of data analyzed, then you're going to miss out on a lot of rather obvious aspects of the game. And I'm SURE you already know these things, and no one had to use H.S. math to prove them to you.

BJG
11-12-05, 11:09 PM
I explained the logic behind it. Look at the skills required to play the different positions and find the other positions that require somewhat similar skill sets. E.g. LF requires reasonable speed and an adequate arm. That's why the switch from CF to LF is pretty common. 1B and C both require little range (compared to the other positions) and an ability to catch the ball. That's why the switch from C to 1B is fairly common. I could go on, but it's fairly obvious.

Would historical quantiative analysis help? Sure it would. But it doesn't take a database to say SS and 2B demand roughly the same skills but 2B requires less of an arm, so the move from SS to 2B should not be too difficult?

If you are going to wait for a hundred years of data analyzed, then you're going to miss out on a lot of rather obvious aspects of the game. And I'm SURE you already know these things, and no one had to use H.S. math to prove them to you.

That's exactly the problem. What we always thought were the rather obvious aspects of the game have turned out to not be so obvious. Going back to Branch Rickey and even before, this is what statistical analysis in baseball has shown time and time again...accepted assumptions about the game are not always accurate. That doesn't mean they are all wrong, but they are all worthy of testing.

So, while I would agree with you generally, you've gone beyone what you described above and tried to grade the differences between switching from short to second and short to third, for example, in a manner that I find not only to not be obvious, but one that could rather easily be quantified one way or the other to see if what I think is obvious is right or what you think is obvious is right.

Iknowcool
11-13-05, 01:33 AM
I'd go 5/50, which is what he is asking for. Hes only 27.