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NewEraYanks2527
11-03-05, 11:45 PM
It seems alot of members of this board really would like to see Brian Giles on the Yankees. I am curious as to why this is because I have not seen much of Giles and do not know what the fascination with him is, he doesnt really seem to be an upgrade over Matsui or Sheff and if Matsui plays center field that is seems to be a really horrible, slow outfield. If Sheff DH's and Giambi then we are kind of stuck with mediocre at best defense at first and Giambi on the field a lot more which may cause problems with his knees. So I am wondering why are people so high on Giles? I just would like to know what everyone sees in this guy because I have said I have not seen enough of him for him to really be a standout player to me, so don't take this as I am insulting the guy or those who would really like him to come here, I would just like to know why people are so high on him.

enterthesandman
11-03-05, 11:55 PM
He's a better defender than Sheffield. And he's a great offensive player. I'd take him in a heartbeat and move Sheff to the DH spot.

flymick24
11-03-05, 11:56 PM
his numbers do all the talking

career: .299/.413/.542

2005: .301/.423/.483
home (PETCO): .267/.378/.417
away: .333/.463/.545

flymick24
11-03-05, 11:59 PM
btw, i've seen him play in person a handful of times, and he plays HARD. never dogs it out on the basepaths and remains intense in the OF, almost byrnes-like.

dabomb2045
11-04-05, 12:23 AM
because he is an upgrade defensively over Sheff in RF, enabling us to DH Sheff

and his offensive production and high OBP are perfect in our lineup as the #2 hitter

Rich
11-04-05, 12:36 AM
http://www.yesnetwork.com/yankees/pinstripedblog.asp

ANOTHER SCENARIO

I talked about Adam Dunn in the Pinstriped Bible yesterday, and how, as a first baseman/corner outfielder he could make for a defensively challenged/offensively potent rotation with Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi.

Another interesting choice would be Brian Giles, who is already rumored to be on his way to St. Louis. Giles will be 35 in 2006, he's not a great glove, just an average one, but he can still hit ó a lot. His .301/.423/.483 percentages are plenty good on the surface, but they look even better when the hit he took for playing in San Diego's Petco. The "PET" in "Petco" stands for "Pitchers' EnvironmenT." Giles hit .267/.378/.417 at home, .333/.463/.545 on the road. He also saw 3.92 pitches per plate appearance. He's the Anti-Cano. The more Anti-Canos a team has, the faster they get to face Jesus Colome. Adam Dunn is an anti-Cano, too. He saw 4.24 pitches per plate appearance.

dabomb2045
11-04-05, 12:38 AM
as much as i want Giles...I dont see us getting him, he will stay in the NL...its more of a pipe dream then anything else

Soriambi
11-04-05, 01:00 AM
His career line is .299/.413/.542/.954.

His OPS stands at 22nd ALL-TIME, with his Adjusted OPS+ at #48 All-Time. To compare him to some modern players, he has a career OPS higher than Jason Giambi, Carlos Delgado, Jeff Bagwell, Chipper Jones, Ken Griffey Jr., Mike Piazza, Jim Edmonds, Gary Sheffield, Bobby Abreu, and other players who have had spectacular careers.

He's 11th among active players when it comes to OPS, and 7th when it comes to OBP. His Adjusted OPS+ is equal to those of Todd Helton and Sheffield, and is slightly better than Alex Rodriguez's, as well as higher than HOF Sluggers like Harmon Killebrew, Eddie Mathews, Reggie Jackson, and Duke Snider.

I just think that his offense is greatly, greatly underrated. He's one of the best hitters in baseball today, and I think that he would fit absolutely perfectly into the Yankees offense. I think that he would be an upgrade over Matsui offensively (though I want them to re-sign Matsui, as well). I think that's he's pretty close offensively to Sheffield, though I might give the edge to Giles due to his superior OBP, SLG%, and (therefore, obviously) OPS over his career. In addition to that, his defense would not hurt at all, and might even help. (And, if you're concerned with it, he's not slow, either, which is a nice little bonus.)

OlgMvp
11-04-05, 01:05 AM
I don't see us acquiring him, I also believe (If I recall correctly) that he isn't crazy about New York, I believe he'll stay in the NL and I would bet he'll stay in the mid-west.

ryanthe13th
11-04-05, 01:06 AM
His numbers are good, but Giles is 35. If we were to persuade him to put on pinstripes, he'd probably want a muti-year deal. Giles could very well turn into another Bernie by the time his deal is up, and then we're absolutely screwed. He'd only be a temporary fix anyway, we need something long term.

Rich
11-04-05, 01:14 AM
His numbers are good, but Giles is 35. If we were to persuade him to put on pinstripes, he'd probably want a muti-year deal. Giles could very well turn into another Bernie by the time his deal is up, and then we're absolutely screwed. He'd only be a temporary fix anyway, we need something long term.

Unlike Bernie, he shows no sign of declining offensively.

Long term we have Melky, Gardner, Battle, Jackson, and possibly Duncan and/or Henry being switched to the OF.

The Yankees need a stopgap position as they develop. Signing Giles to a two or three year contract would accomplish that goal.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-04-05, 01:16 AM
Pay the man his money...

27IsNext
11-04-05, 01:18 AM
It's a moot point. He wants to stay on the west coast, and he'd likely accept nothing less than a four-year deal, which we shouldn't offer someone his age.

Enter_Sandman_42
11-04-05, 01:21 AM
because he's a Paul O'Neil type player but with a calm and cool attitude.

Rich
11-04-05, 01:26 AM
It's a moot point. He wants to stay on the west coast, and he'd likely accept nothing less than a four-year deal, which we shouldn't offer someone his age.

The point isn't moot until the aging OFer re-signs or signs.

ryanthe13th
11-04-05, 01:33 AM
Unlike Bernie, he shows no sign of declining offensively.

Long term we have Melky, Gardner, Battle, Jackson, and possibly Duncan and/or Henry being switched to the OF.

The Yankees need a stopgap position as they develop. Signing Giles to a two or three year contract would accomplish that goal.

This is assuming that Cabrera won't be a bust. Duncan isn't moving to the OF because they're grooming him to possibly replace Giambi when his time is up.

Rich
11-04-05, 01:40 AM
This is assuming that Cabrera won't be a bust. Duncan isn't moving to the OF because they're grooming him to possibly replace Giambi when his time is up.

PinstripesPlus.com recently rated Melky as their third best prospect. Duncan has the athleticism to play the OF. He could eventually move. Don't overlook the other prospects I mentioned. The Yankees are loaded at the lower levels of the system.

Dannman103
11-04-05, 02:06 AM
i dont see the appeal...i can understand that he's had a pretty good career, and that he's not exactly showing signs of decline, but at 35, we'd have to at least give him a three year deal, and he'd probably be only worth the money we pay him in the first, before he starts to go downhill...do we really need another outfielder on the wrong side of 30?

Saxmania
11-04-05, 04:11 AM
Why does everyone want Brian Giles?

Because he's a left-handed, younger Gary Sheffield with better defense and fewer personality question marks who'll probably cost less.

Think I'm exaggerating? Check out his career at Baseball Reference.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Yankees1962
11-04-05, 05:07 AM
Unlike Bernie, he shows no sign of declining offensively.

Long term we have Melky, Gardner, Battle, Jackson, and possibly Duncan and/or Henry being switched to the OF.

The Yankees need a stopgap position as they develop. Signing Giles to a two or three year contract would accomplish that goal.
Bernie Williams didn't show any decline during the 2002 season, when turned 34, but it started in 2003. Sure, he had a knee injury in the 2003 season, but that's the point, Giles will be 35 years old and at that age any type of major injury can start the decline instantly or simply, the decline can start gradually on it's own. Giles probably will get a 3 year contract on the open market. I don't want to sign any other 35 year old outfielder to multi-year contracts. Don't get me wrong, Giles is a fine player, but I want the Yankees to get younger and more athletic.

Anyhow, chances are he's not leaving the National League.

32elston
11-04-05, 06:03 AM
Unless Giles can start pitching and bridge the gap between the starters and Mo, he's not the answer. I'll take a good reliever over him everyday. More offense without more pitching is a waste of money, look where the Sox offense got them this year, we caught up and in the alds 3 and out.

noneckwilliams
11-04-05, 06:10 AM
Giles is old, expensive and makes no sense for this team.

SODM
11-04-05, 07:20 AM
I hope Snatch doesn't see this thread. :)

Kulish29
11-04-05, 07:57 AM
Brain Giles (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gilesbr02.shtml) has put up these #'s for his career: .299 AVG, .413 OBP, .542 SLG, .954 OPS and 146 OPS+. He's only batted under .280 twice in his career. He's been a model of consistency. That's why people want him.

Yankees1962
11-04-05, 08:01 AM
Brain Giles (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gilesbr02.shtml) has put up these #'s for his career: .299 AVG, .413 OBP, .542 SLG, .954 OPS and 146 OPS+. He's only batted under .280 twice in his career. He's been a model of consistency. That's why people want him.
Once Bernie hit his stride he was consistent too until 2003. Players regress and some times it happens without warning.

JDPNYY
11-04-05, 08:04 AM
The Posts in this Thread tell an awful lot.

Yankees1962
11-04-05, 08:07 AM
The Posts in this Thread tell an awful lot.
What do they tell?

ppa79
11-04-05, 08:10 AM
Whats there not to like, he hits for average, he hits for power, he walks a lot and doesn't strike out a lot. I'm all for getting younger, but the problem is that there isn't a younger option available. This isn't like when the Yankees were choosing between Vlad and Guerrero. Giles can buy us some time until Melky and Duncan are ready or a younger player becomes available.

Yankees1962
11-04-05, 08:11 AM
Whats there not to like, he hits for average, he hits for power, he walks a lot and doesn't strike out a lot. I'm all for getting younger, but the problem is that there isn't a younger option available. This isn't like when the Yankees were choosing between Vlad and Guerrero. Giles can buy us some time until Melky and Duncan are ready or a younger player becomes available.
Signing Giles doesn't improve the defense in CF.

ppa79
11-04-05, 08:13 AM
Once Bernie hit his stride he was consistent too until 2003. Players regress and some times it happens without warning.

Bernie has chronic shoulder problems that has striped him of his power which only get worse as he gets older. I don't think Giles has any physical problems.

Yankees1962
11-04-05, 08:20 AM
Bernie has chronic shoulder problems that has striped him of his power which only get worse as he gets older. I don't think Giles has any physical problems.
I don't know of too many 35 year old outfielders that don't have any type of physical problems.

ppa79
11-04-05, 08:21 AM
Signing Giles doesn't improve the defense in CF.

I didn't say Giles will improve CF. Signing Giles just gives the Yankees more options. He improves RF and allows us the DH Sheffield or trade him in the right deal. Getting Giles doesn't affect what we are going to do in CF. Giles will improves the team on defense and a lot on offense.

Yankees1962
11-04-05, 08:24 AM
I didn't say Giles will improve CF. Signing Giles just gives the Yankees more options. He improves RF and allows us the DH Sheffield or trade him in the right deal. Getting Giles doesn't affect what we are going to do in CF. Giles will improves the team marginly on defense and a lot on offense.
I would be shocked if the Yankees sign another expensive outfielder outside of Matsui, no matter what type of offense he provides for them. Cashman has been pretty consistent in his comments that he wants to decrease the payroll while improving the CF defense and bullpen depth.

Evil Empire
11-04-05, 08:24 AM
He's played more Left Field in his career. Why not stick him in left, leave Sheff in Right and pop Matsui in center?

The 4 OF can spell Sheff when he DH's

23and2
11-04-05, 08:53 AM
While it would be great to add a bat to this lineup, and one that defensively is as good or better than Sheff in RF (I expect a little dropoff in Sheff next year anyway - so it would probably be more than a little better).. but at the end of the day, if we don't add a serious defensive presence out there, preferably in CF, then the Yankees will have neglected one of their biggest weaknesses.

YankeePride1967
11-04-05, 09:00 AM
I didn't say Giles will improve CF. Signing Giles just gives the Yankees more options. He improves RF and allows us the DH Sheffield or trade him in the right deal. Getting Giles doesn't affect what we are going to do in CF. Giles will improves the team on defense and a lot on offense.

It's a moot point because Giles has no interest in coming to NY.

NYYRocket
11-04-05, 10:28 AM
We don't need a 35 year old OF who really doesn't want to play here in the past

yanksphan
11-04-05, 10:50 AM
I saw Giles play about 30 times this year. Offensively - incredible player. Defensively - meh. He does NOT get a very good jump on balls. It would essentially be like having another Sheff in the outfield. A LOT of balls falling at his feet that leave you wondering - "why didn't he catch that?"

I've heard a few interviews with him on local radio since the season ended, and he has not hinted at all his preference. He's pretty much left the entire league as a possibility, so this "only wants to play on the West coast" is a bunch of garbage. Earlier this season he talked about how cool it would be to play in Atlanta with his brother Marcus.

That said - I think he takes Larry Walker's spot in StL.

Crusadecat
11-04-05, 10:53 AM
Unless we somehow trade Sheff , which i don't endorse doing unless it was a blow away kind of deal. I don't see Giles meeting our needs. If we move Sheff to DH then our 1b defense suffers a hit. and Giambi will need a day off at 1st every now and then. I'd rather spend the money in other areas.

surge511
11-04-05, 11:02 AM
It's not that everyone wants Giles, but there just aren't too many viable OF options to turn to. Hopefully Cash gets creative and pulls something good.

32elston
11-04-05, 12:47 PM
Although his defense isn't the best, I prefer not to have Sheff as a full-time DH. If we do that, when we have to play in NL parks we have to find a way to stick him in the line-up and if you think his D is bad now, wait until he's been stuck out there for an interleague/WS game and he's been sitting on the bench the majority of the games.

Jace
11-04-05, 01:14 PM
Duncan isn't moving to the OF because they're grooming him to possibly replace Giambi when his time is up.

Not that this is on topic, but if Derrek Lee has another very good year and wins another Gold Glove, the Yankees may have a really hard time not signing him for huge money (if he's interested in coming to the Yankees) to play first when his contract expires after this year. And then trading Duncan or something.

I see this becoming major drama 12 months from now in any case.

38Special
11-04-05, 01:21 PM
Not that this is on topic, but if Derrek Lee has another very good year and wins another Gold Glove, the Yankees may have a really hard time not signing him for huge money (if he's interested in coming to the Yankees) to play first when his contract expires after this year. And then trading Duncan or something.

I see this becoming major drama 12 months from now in any case.
I dont think so. After the joke of a contract Giambi got, i can't see the Yankees falling into another 7 year contract (which is what Lee likely would get).

Jace
11-04-05, 01:26 PM
I dont think so. After the joke of a contract Giambi got, i can't see the Yankees falling into another 7 year contract (which is what Lee likely would get).

I think people have become disillusioned enough with really long contracts so that Lee will get 5 years instead of 7, being a 30 year old. And he is also a great defender, unlike Giambi, as well as a much trimmer guy (less injury liklehood). And I'm not so sure signing Lee for 5 years and 13 per or so would be a bad move if you could get something really good for Duncan.

But then homegrown players are more fun to watch, so I'd prefer keeping Duncan although signing Lee to that kind of contract might make more baseball sense.

I Love Wang
11-04-05, 03:23 PM
Once Bernie hit his stride he was consistent too until 2003. Players regress and some times it happens without warning.

Not often. Furthermore, Giles, over his career, is a much better player than Bernie Williams. He walks a lot more, and its unlikely that a knee injury will change that.

I Love Wang
11-04-05, 03:25 PM
I don't know of too many 35 year old outfielders that don't have any type of physical problems.

Your nonsense hyperbole is undermining your credibility, not helping your argument. Giles has been healthy his whole career, and has no physical problems of note. Whether or not you choose to believe this is up to you.

Yankees1962
11-04-05, 03:27 PM
Your nonsense hyperbole is undermining your credibility, not helping your argument. Giles has been healthy his whole career, and has no physical problems of note. Whether or not you choose to believe this is up to you.
Pick your fight with somebody else, I'm not interested.

ppa79
11-04-05, 03:31 PM
I think people have become disillusioned enough with really long contracts so that Lee will get 5 years instead of 7, being a 30 year old. And he is also a great defender, unlike Giambi, as well as a much trimmer guy (less injury liklehood). And I'm not so sure signing Lee for 5 years and 13 per or so would be a bad move if you could get something really good for Duncan.

But then homegrown players are more fun to watch, so I'd prefer keeping Duncan although signing Lee to that kind of contract might make more baseball sense.

Lee's a good player but signing him for 5 years at 13 million is way too much. He's only had one season in which his OPS was greater than .900. Anyways, I'm a big believer in Duncan and would rather see him playing 1st base and breaking up that 13 million and spending it on mulitple players to give the Yankees more depth.

noneckwilliams
11-04-05, 05:11 PM
Your nonsense hyperbole is undermining your credibility, not helping your argument. Giles has been healthy his whole career, and has no physical problems of note. Whether or not you choose to believe this is up to you.

The Yankees have two of the most productive corner OFers in baseball, why do they need another one? If Matsui doesn't return then they should pursue Giles but otherwise there are better places to use their resources.

I Love Wang
11-04-05, 05:43 PM
The Yankees have two of the most productive corner OFers in baseball, why do they need another one? If Matsui doesn't return then they should pursue Giles but otherwise there are better places to use their resources.

There is not another player available who will improve the team as much as Giles. Thats why. Furthermore, Sheffield's defense has gotten to the point where he is a major liability out there. The nice thing about getting Giles is it will allow us to give significant DH time to Sheffield and Matsui. If we were to get, say, Brad Wilkerson in CF, we could include Giambi in that rotation, allowing all of our poorer fielders to have some time at DH.

I Love Wang
11-04-05, 05:44 PM
Pick your fight with somebody else, I'm not interested.

If you don't want people to argue with you, then don't try to imply things that aren't true. Giles has been extremely durable his entire career, and has no physical problems at this point.

noneckwilliams
11-04-05, 05:49 PM
There is not another player available who will improve the team as much as Giles. Thats why. Furthermore, Sheffield's defense has gotten to the point where he is a major liability out there. The nice thing about getting Giles is it will allow us to give significant DH time to Sheffield and Matsui. If we were to get, say, Brad Wilkerson in CF, we could include Giambi in that rotation, allowing all of our poorer fielders to have some time at DH.

We can't get everybody and it appears that they may hold the line or even reduce (if they can) payroll. I'm with you on Shef's defense but wouldn't a good CFer somewhat improve his crappiness in RF? I agree with you about a "floating" DH situation in which Matsui, Shef, Giambi and even ARod get some rest but I just think Giles is a bit of overkill. Why not just land Wikerson?

I Love Wang
11-04-05, 05:52 PM
We can't get everybody and it appears that they may hold the line or even reduce (if they can) payroll. I'm with you on Shef's defense but wouldn't a good CFer somewhat improve his crappiness in RF? I agree with you about a "floating" DH situation in which Matsui, Shef, Giambi and even ARod get some rest but I just think Giles is a bit of overkill. Why not just land Wikerson?

With the amount of payroll coming off, a few intelligent moves would drastically improve the team while also cutting a good chunk off the payroll. If we don't go out and sign replacement level players to $2mil a year deals to be on our bench, and instead use better, younger, cheaper minor leaguers like Andy Phillips, Kevin Thompson, Bubba Crosby, Colter Bean, Jason Anderson, Matt Smith, etc., we will be able to cut a lot of payroll.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-04-05, 05:52 PM
The Yankees have two of the most productive corner OFers in baseball, why do they need another one? If Matsui doesn't return then they should pursue Giles but otherwise there are better places to use their resources.

First off Giles is a better hitter than Matsui and comparable to Sheffield his entire career. Also Giles is a better fielder than both Matsui and Sheffield at this point. Signing Giles would allow Sheffield to DH where he has thrived,improve our outfield defense, and get an absolutely amazing #2 hitter...

ppa79
11-04-05, 06:02 PM
With the amount of payroll coming off, a few intelligent moves would drastically improve the team while also cutting a good chunk off the payroll. If we don't go out and sign replacement level players to $2mil a year deals to be on our bench, and instead use better, younger, cheaper minor leaguers like Andy Phillips, Kevin Thompson, Bubba Crosby, Colter Bean, Jason Anderson, Matt Smith, etc., we will be able to cut a lot of payroll.

I'm hoping Kevin Thompson becomes our the 4th outfielder and Matt Smith becomes our left specialist. But after Matt Smith's performance in the AFL, I'm starting to worry. Hopefully he'll be able to surprise everyone in Spring training.

FMITK2005
11-04-05, 06:38 PM
I think he would be the perfect fit for this team.

nycdoc999
11-04-05, 07:35 PM
I see no data to suggest that Brian Giles is a BETTER corner outfielder than Matsui. None. And I've looked up UZR and RF for both. They both seem average in that regard. Giles is certainly not appreciably better, and neither player is capable of playing CF well for any extended period of time.

Giles would be a great addition to the line-up, no doubt. But we're NOT signing him INSTEAD of Matsui. Matsui has produced in NY, wants to be here, and is a financial windfall for the Yankees because of his enormous popularity in Japan. If we sign Giles it will be in addition to Matsui, and probably a trade for a CF as well. Joe will have to juggle the 3 OF spots with 4 OFs, allowing them all to rotate at DH. Occasionally, we can DH Giambi and play Matsui in CF - that will undoubtably weaken our OF defense (say, instead of Bubba or Wilkerson in CF), but we can get by with it so long as it's not the norm....


Edit:

PS - Giles' UZR from 2000-2003 was -9 in LF

http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html

Hard to find Matsui's, but for 2003 it was -4 and 2004 it was -11, so they're both comparable in that regard - neither particularly good.

theraindrops.weblogs.us/archives/015441.html

32elston
11-04-05, 07:40 PM
I recommend that we just threaten to trade Womack to where ever Giles wants to play next year if he doesn't sign with us for the minimum salary. We'll land him for sure then.

noneckwilliams
11-04-05, 07:44 PM
First off Giles is a better hitter than Matsui and comparable to Sheffield his entire career. Also Giles is a better fielder than both Matsui and Sheffield at this point. Signing Giles would allow Sheffield to DH where he has thrived,improve our outfield defense, and get an absolutely amazing #2 hitter...

I disagree with you that Giles is a better hitter than Matsui. I'd post the numbers and let people decide for themselves but I'm a computer illiterate. Matsui leads (often by wide margins) in every category over the last 3 years except walks and OBP - but he is no slouch in these two areas (career .370 OBP). Giles is a very good player but wouldn't getting a legitimate everyday CFer and a legitimate 4th OFer make more sense?

JeffWeaverFan
11-04-05, 09:00 PM
I'll just repeat what has most likely been said. 2005 away from PETCO: .333/.463/.545/1.008. Put him in RF and have Sheff be our everyday DH and we've got quite a lineup.

ICEBERG18
11-04-05, 09:07 PM
and the club has already contacted the agent for San Diego Padres outfielder Brian Giles about arranging a visit for his client, too. Giles, who batted .301, had a .423 on-base percentage, hit 15 home runs and batted in 83 runs last season, turned down a three-year, $21 million (all figures U.S.) contract offer from the Padres this week.
"I've spoken to J.P. [Ricciardi, the Blue Jays' general manager] a couple of times this week, and coming up to Toronto is something we've discussed," Giles's agent, Joe Bick, said yesterday. "Brian's in Hawaii on a vacation right now, but we've known about the Blue Jays' interest and we're actively considering it."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051102/GLOVE02/TPSports/Baseball

Agent Joe Bick said the Mariners have expressed interest in free agent Brian Giles.
"Certainly, the Mariners are among those we would be serious with," Bick said. "He wants to play where someone is interested in winning. He'd like to be in the playoffs. With a few pieces, there's no reason why they couldn't." Well, perhaps with a few very good pieces. The Mariners are joining the Cardinals and Indians in pursuing Giles. The Padres have pulled their three-year, $21 million offer off the table for now, although they remain interested in re-signing him.

-rotoworld.com

ppa79
11-04-05, 09:22 PM
All Giles can do is help the Yankees. He is the best option available. I hope the Yankees are heavily considering this move.

AMYanks
11-04-05, 10:07 PM
I disagree with you that Giles is a better hitter than Matsui. I'd post the numbers and let people decide for themselves but I'm a computer illiterate. Matsui leads (often by wide margins) in every category over the last 3 years except walks and OBP - but he is no slouch in these two areas (career .370 OBP). Giles is a very good player but wouldn't getting a legitimate everyday CFer and a legitimate 4th OFer make more sense?

OPS+

2003
Giles - 148
Matsui - 111

2004
Giles - 126
Matsui - 139

2005
Giles - 148
Matsui - 125

Giles is a better hitter.

And Matsui leads in HRs and RBIs over the last two years because:

A. Giles plays in a horrible left-handed power park (1.008 road OPS this year, .795 home OPS), while Matsui plays in one of the best left-handed power parks.

B. Matsui has been in a better lineup, getting more RBI opportunities.

Kulish29
11-05-05, 12:28 AM
http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&lastline=164069&id=5543

Agent Joe Bick said the Mariners have expressed interest in free agent Brian Giles.
"Certainly, the Mariners are among those we would be serious with," Bick said. "He wants to play where someone is interested in winning. He'd like to be in the playoffs. With a few pieces, there's no reason why they couldn't."

The Mariners? He would like to be on a winner and would consider signing with the Mariners? WTF?

surge511
11-05-05, 12:32 AM
http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&lastline=164069&id=5543


The Mariners? He would like to be on a winner and would consider signing with the Mariners? WTF?

Decoy to get other people interested is my best guess.

I Love Wang
11-05-05, 01:54 AM
I disagree with you that Giles is a better hitter than Matsui. I'd post the numbers and let people decide for themselves but I'm a computer illiterate. Matsui leads (often by wide margins) in every category over the last 3 years except walks and OBP - but he is no slouch in these two areas (career .370 OBP). Giles is a very good player but wouldn't getting a legitimate everyday CFer and a legitimate 4th OFer make more sense?

Giles is a better hitter than Matsui. Career OPS+ 148 to 125. 2005 OPS+ 146-125. It isn't close.

jyjjy
11-05-05, 04:00 AM
Giles is an obvious fit for this team.
Sure, he doesnt play CF but with him added to the line-up we CAN play an all glove/no hit CF and have no concern at all about the lack of offense from the position.
Unless Washington is willing to part with Wilkerson for a reasonable price there is pretty much no good answer to our CF problem.
Giles in right + Crosby(or whoever) in center + Sheff @ DH would improve our D by a ton and massively upgrade us at DH.
To be honest I'd try to sign him even if we can get Wilkerson... Adding both of them would make our line-up an thing of pure beauty, possibly putting up historic numbers.

Yankees1962
11-05-05, 07:03 AM
Giles is an obvious fit for this team.
Sure, he doesnt play CF but with him added to the line-up we CAN play an all glove/no hit CF and have no concern at all about the lack of offense from the position.
Unless Washington is willing to part with Wilkerson for a reasonable price there is pretty much no good answer to our CF problem.
Giles in right + Crosby(or whoever) in center + Sheff @ DH would improve our D by a ton and massively upgrade us at DH.
To be honest I'd try to sign him even if we can get Wilkerson... Adding both of them would make our line-up an thing of pure beauty, possibly putting up historic numbers.
I don't know how much the Yankees want to reduce their payroll by, but if it's 10% or more then I don't think they can afford Giles who turned down a 3 year contract for 21M.

noneckwilliams
11-05-05, 07:04 AM
Giles is a better hitter than Matsui. Career OPS+ 148 to 125. 2005 OPS+ 146-125. It isn't close.

Last 3 seasons


Hits Xhits TB BB SLG

Giles 484 184 805 313 .488

Matsui 545 197 888 214 .484

You're right these guys aren't even close.

Saxmania
11-05-05, 08:29 AM
Last 3 seasons


Hits Xhits TB BB SLG

Giles 484 184 805 313 .488

Matsui 545 197 888 214 .484

You're right these guys aren't even close.

You're not adjusting for ballpark, therefore you're not comparing the two honestly. Would you still use the same numbers if Matsui was playing in Safeco and Giles was in Colorado?

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

noneckwilliams
11-05-05, 08:35 AM
You're not adjusting for ballpark, therefore you're not comparing the two honestly. Would you still use the same numbers if Matsui was playing in Safeco and Giles was in Colorado?

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

I'm not even contending that Matsui is a better hitter than Giles (although I think he is). The numbers are what they are and since he's been in MLB Matsui has more hits, extra base hits, total bases and a practically identical slugging pct as Giles. Giles of course has more walks and a higher OBP. Based on these I numbers I just disagree with the belief that Giles is in some entirely different (higher) stratosphere as an offensive player than Matsui.

Saxmania
11-05-05, 09:04 AM
I'm not even contending that Matsui is a better hitter than Giles (although I think he is). The numbers are what they are and since he's been in MLB Matsui has more hits, extra base hits, total bases and a practically identical slugging pct as Giles. Giles of course has more walks and a higher OBP. Based on these I numbers I just disagree with the belief that Giles is in some entirely different (higher) stratosphere as an offensive player than Matsui.

But based on the park-adjusted offensive numbers, which account for the fact that Matsui has been playing in one of the best parks for left-handed hitters, and Giles one of the worst, Giles is a significantly better hitter. Therefore, your disagreement of the argument presented above seems to be based on deliberately ignoring relevant information.

If Giles had been playing in Colorado instead of Petco/Qualcomm, would you still have the same opinion of their numbers? I doubt it.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

DontHateOnNumber2
11-05-05, 09:24 AM
Why does everyone want Giles?

Angel = me = not everyone.

I don't want Giles. Any Giles player at all. Just throw Bubba into the fire and see what he can do.

AMYanks
11-05-05, 11:12 AM
I'm not even contending that Matsui is a better hitter than Giles (although I think he is). The numbers are what they are and since he's been in MLB Matsui has more hits, extra base hits, total bases and a practically identical slugging pct as Giles. Giles of course has more walks and a higher OBP. Based on these I numbers I just disagree with the belief that Giles is in some entirely different (higher) stratosphere as an offensive player than Matsui.

You have to use park adjusted numbers, considering the huge advantage that Matsui has.

OPS+ is park adjusted, and proves that Giles is undoubtedly the better hitter.

jyjjy
11-05-05, 12:18 PM
I don't know how much the Yankees want to reduce their payroll by, but if it's 10% or more then I don't think they can afford Giles who turned down a 3 year contract for 21M.I forget the exact numbers but if I remember even after the automatic increases in salary the payroll is due to go down about 40 million. I would think that resigning Matsui, signing Giles and renovating the bullpen can probably be done for 30ish mill, so this can be done and still get the payroll down a nice amount.

DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 01:40 PM
I can't say just how much the Yankees would like to have Giles in the Bronx but it's either shopping for a new centerfielder or giving it to Bubba Crosby because almost any other player on the market will be around 10 to 18 mil a year any way.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-05-05, 02:05 PM
OPS+ is park adjusted, and proves that Giles is undoubtedly the better hitter.

Yes, as someone pointed out its quite obvious Giles is the better hitter. His numbers away from Petco are astounding. In addition Giles has a much stronger and accurate arm in right. If it was a choice between the two, which it certainly isn't I want both of them, I'd take Giles...

Rich
11-06-05, 04:24 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/362964p-309160c.html

Yanks gauge Giles in outfield

BY ANTHONY McCARRON
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

"I've had a conversation with Brian (Cashman)," said Joe Bick, Giles' agent. "He said they are assessing what they are going to do and, obviously, Brian is an attractive guy to them and they are interested in talking about him. We have nothing specifically set up, but I'm sure we'll have another conversation."

Cashman refused to divulge specifics about the talk, but noted, "We're going to touch base with everyone who could help us." Teams can't talk money with anyone but their own free agents until after Friday, but can tell players they are interested.

"We need a center fielder and we'd like to sign Hideki to be on the corner," Cashman added. "We'll know by Nov.15 if that'll happen or not. It's possible we could be looking for a center fielder and a corner outfielder, but I hope not."

Giles, who will be 35 in January, batted .301 with 15 homers and 83 RBI for the Padres in 2005 in their difficult home park for hitters. He also had 38 doubles and led the majors with 119 walks, 11 more than Jason Giambi. He hit 35 or more homers four straight years (1999-2002) with Pittsburgh.

The Yankees could sign both Matsui and Giles and shift Matsui to center and use Giles in left or use Giles in left if they somehow let Matsui get away. If the Yanks re-sign Matsui but don't want to use him regularly in center, then it's unlikely they would pursue Giles further, unless they were really shaking up their outfield.

[...]

ppa79
11-06-05, 07:41 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/362964p-309160c.html

Yanks gauge Giles in outfield

BY ANTHONY McCARRON
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

"I've had a conversation with Brian (Cashman)," said Joe Bick, Giles' agent. "He said they are assessing what they are going to do and, obviously, Brian is an attractive guy to them and they are interested in talking about him. We have nothing specifically set up, but I'm sure we'll have another conversation."

Cashman refused to divulge specifics about the talk, but noted, "We're going to touch base with everyone who could help us." Teams can't talk money with anyone but their own free agents until after Friday, but can tell players they are interested.

"We need a center fielder and we'd like to sign Hideki to be on the corner," Cashman added. "We'll know by Nov.15 if that'll happen or not. It's possible we could be looking for a center fielder and a corner outfielder, but I hope not."

Giles, who will be 35 in January, batted .301 with 15 homers and 83 RBI for the Padres in 2005 in their difficult home park for hitters. He also had 38 doubles and led the majors with 119 walks, 11 more than Jason Giambi. He hit 35 or more homers four straight years (1999-2002) with Pittsburgh.

The Yankees could sign both Matsui and Giles and shift Matsui to center and use Giles in left or use Giles in left if they somehow let Matsui get away. If the Yanks re-sign Matsui but don't want to use him regularly in center, then it's unlikely they would pursue Giles further, unless they were really shaking up their outfield.

[...]

This is the probably the best news I am gonna hear today. :D

Stupid Flanders
11-06-05, 08:59 AM
Why does everyone want Giles?

Angel = me = not everyone.

I don't want Giles. Any Giles player at all. Just throw Bubba into the fire and see what he can do.
If you were an indian, your name would be "Crazy Talk"

Stupid Flanders
11-06-05, 09:00 AM
Last 3 seasons


Hits Xhits TB BB SLG

Giles 484 184 805 313 .488

Matsui 545 197 888 214 .484

You're right these guys aren't even close.
Again, you completely ignored park factors. Why are you picking and choosing stats? What is behind your Giles hatred?

Stupid Flanders
11-06-05, 09:01 AM
The Yankees have two of the most productive corner OFers in baseball, why do they need another one? If Matsui doesn't return then they should pursue Giles but otherwise there are better places to use their resources.
A LOT of money is coming off the books. The Yankees need to resign Matsui, sign at least one more position player (or two) and sign a bullpen.

This could easily be accomplished while reducing payroll and adding a player like Giles and a strong bullpen

Yankees1962
11-06-05, 09:12 AM
A LOT of money is coming off the books. The Yankees need to resign Matsui, sign at least one more position player (or two) and sign a bullpen.

This could easily be accomplished while reducing payroll and adding a player like Giles and a strong bullpen
Show me how the Yankees can add Giles, a strong bullpen and fill out the rest of the roster spots while reducing the payroll? By reduction I'm talking about in the 10% range because with a payroll between 205-210M in 2005, thats probably what needs to happen. By the way, the Yankees have almost 142M committed towards the 2006 salary cap and that's only for 11 players.

rajah
11-06-05, 09:26 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/362964p-309160c.html

Yanks gauge Giles in outfield

BY ANTHONY McCARRON
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

"I've had a conversation with Brian (Cashman)," said Joe Bick, Giles' agent. "He said they are assessing what they are going to do and, obviously, Brian is an attractive guy to them and they are interested in talking about him. We have nothing specifically set up, but I'm sure we'll have another conversation."

Cashman refused to divulge specifics about the talk, but noted, "We're going to touch base with everyone who could help us." Teams can't talk money with anyone but their own free agents until after Friday, but can tell players they are interested.

"We need a center fielder and we'd like to sign Hideki to be on the corner," Cashman added. "We'll know by Nov.15 if that'll happen or not. It's possible we could be looking for a center fielder and a corner outfielder, but I hope not."

Giles, who will be 35 in January, batted .301 with 15 homers and 83 RBI for the Padres in 2005 in their difficult home park for hitters. He also had 38 doubles and led the majors with 119 walks, 11 more than Jason Giambi. He hit 35 or more homers four straight years (1999-2002) with Pittsburgh.

The Yankees could sign both Matsui and Giles and shift Matsui to center and use Giles in left or use Giles in left if they somehow let Matsui get away. If the Yanks re-sign Matsui but don't want to use him regularly in center, then it's unlikely they would pursue Giles further, unless they were really shaking up their outfield.

[...]

This quote suggests to me that Giles is a possible backup plan if they do not sign Matsui. Cashman says he hopes that they will not need both a CFer and a corner OFer.

I hope that they do not find Matsui acceptable in CF. Even with the addition of Giles as an offensive force, I think that we would all regret that. I also hope, however, that the Y's understand the need to add both a CFer who is above average defensively and another bat to trade off DH and !B and corner OF with Shef, Hideki, and Jason.

I doubt that they will spend the kind of money that Giles will command to obtain that bat, however. Giles, IMO, will only be sought as a substitute for Matsui, or perhaps Shef if he is used in a trade for a CFer. The latter would happen only after the signing of Giles I would assume.

noneckwilliams
11-06-05, 09:30 AM
Again, you completely ignored park factors. Why are you picking and choosing stats? What is behind your Giles hatred?

Yes I've been told that several times about park factors. You know these guys are human beings. You take them from one situation to another and maybe the results aren't quite what you think they'll be. Matsui has produced in NYC.

I don't hate Giles. I've stated several times that he's a terrific hitter. I do disagree with the belief that Matsui can't hold his jockstrap as an offensive player. If you gave me a choice between Matsui and Giles I'd take Matsui because he's younger and has produced in NYC. If Matsui walks then again I'm fine with Giles.

As for signing Giles how does this address their defensive crappiness in CF? If the NYY felt that Matsui could play CF wouldn't he have been there last season? If signing him (Giles) were part of some overall plan to perhaps move Shef and gain a legitimate CFer then I'm fine with it. I don't see the logic of having Matsui, Giles and Shef on the roster.

ppa79
11-06-05, 09:34 AM
Show me how the Yankees can add Giles, a strong bullpen and fill out the rest of the roster spots while reducing the payroll? By reduction I'm talking about in the 10% range because with a payroll between 205-210M in 2005, thats probably what needs to happen. By the way, the Yankees have almost 142M committed towards the 2006 salary cap and that's only for 11 players.

My ideas:

Sign BJ Ryan = 24M/4yrs - lose 1st round pick
Sign Brian Giles = 36/3yrs - lose 2nd round pick
Sign Todd Pratt = 1M
Sign Travis Lee or JT Snow = 2M (whoever signs first and is the cheapest)
Sign Miguel Cairo = 1.5M
Sign Milton Bradley if he is non tendered or if he is not either trade for him or Wilkerson depending who is the cheapest to get.
Cut Tony Womack he is a complete waste of a roster spot
Let Gordon Sign somewhere else (we get the team's 1st round pick and get a supplementary pick if he signs with a team that is picking 16-30. This should offset the loss of losing our 1st and 2nd round pick for signing Ryan and Giles)

Sign Octavio Dotel to a contract similar to Lieber = 5M/2yrs

If available sign Daisuke Matsuzaka to 28M/4yrs (I'm just taking a guess here, I really don't know what it would take to sign him)
Most probably Matsuzaka would be in the bullpen in 2006, but in 2007 we could slide him into the rotation when we let Mussina go and buyout Wright's 2008 season for 4 Million since he's already spent more than 75 days on the DL.

Lineup

1- SS Jeter = 21M
2 -RF Giles = 12M (Assuming he would sign a 36M/3yrs)
3- 3rd Arod = 20M
4- 1st Giambi = 19M
5- DH Sheffield = 13M
6- LF Matsui = 12M (Assuming he would sign a 36/3yrs)
7- CF Bradley 3M (he should probably get around 3M in arbitration) or Wilkerson 5M (he should get probably around 5M in arbitration)
8- C Posada = 13.5M
9 -2nd Cano = .3M

Total = 113.8M with Bradley
Total = 115.8M with Wilkerson

Starters
10 - Johnson = 16M
11- Mussina = 19M
12- Pavano = 8M
13- Wright = 7.66M
14- Chacon = 3M (He should get around 3M in arbitration)

Total = 53.66M

Bullpen
15- Rivera = 10.5M
16- Small = .3M
17- Wang = .3M
18- Sturtze = 1.5M (assuming option is picked up) If Sturtze starts losing it again we have Dotel = 2.5M
19 - Ryan = 6M (assuming he signs a 24M/4yrs)
20 - Smith = .3M (If we get Matsuzaka(=7M), he probably take Smith's spot)

Total = 21.4 without Matsuzaka including Dotel
Total = 28.1 with Matsuzaka including Dotel

Bench
21 - Backup 1st - Lee or Snow = 2M (assuming he signs a 2M/1yr)
22 - Backup Catcher - Pratt = 1M (assuming he signs a 1M/1yr)
23 - Backup Infielder - Cairo = 1.5M (assuming he signs a 1.5M/1yr)
24 - 4th Outfielder - Crosby = .3M or Rivera = .3M or Kapler = .750M (These are just some ideas, I don't know what to do for the 4th Outfielder.)
25 - Backup infielder or outfielder = Pick one (Andy Phillips = .3M or Mike Vento = .3M Kevin Reese = .3M or Kevin Thompson = .3M)
Cut - Womack = 2M (Since I can't think of anyone that would want him, I would just cut him and eat the 2M. He is wasting a roster space)

Total = 7.1M

Total cost for 25 man roster =

Bradley and Matsuzaka = 202.66M
Bradley and no Matsuzaka = 195.96M
Wilkerson and Matsuzaka = 204.66
Wilkerson and no Matsuzaka = 197.96

Including Buyouts (I think these are all the buyouts)
Bernie Williams = 3.5M
Steve Karsay = 1.5M
Tino Martinez = .25M

Total = 5.25

Total cost =

Bradley and Matsuzaka = 207.91
Bradley and no Matsuzaka = 201.21
Wilkerson and Matsuzaka = 209.91
Wilkerson and no Matsuzaka = 203.21

I donít think this year is the year to drastically reduce payroll especially 10%, too many big contracts and the talent in the minors isnít ready to replace them, it will probably come next year and the year after when we lose after 2006 (Mussina = 17M, Sheffield = 13M, Womack = 2M, Sturtze = 1.5, Wright = 3M (we still have to give him a 4M buyout)) and after 2007 (Posada = 12M and Johnson = 16M). Our young guns (DeSlavo, White, Clippard, Cox, and Henn) should be ready by then.


The only trade I made was for Bradley or Wilkerson because that is one we have to make. I couldn't say just trade Posada, Pavano, or Wright because I don't know if there is a market for them so I had to bite the bullet and keep them and hopefully they can turn it around next season.

Yankees1962
11-06-05, 09:49 AM
My ideas:

Sign BJ Ryan = 24M/4yrs - lose 1st round pick
Sign Brian Giles = 36/3yrs - lose 2nd round pick
Sign Todd Pratt = 1M
Sign Travis Lee or JT Snow = 2M (whoever signs first and is the cheapest)
Sign Miguel Cairo = 1.5M
Sign Milton Bradley if he is non tendered or if he is not either trade for him or Wilkerson depending who is the cheapest to get.
Cut Tony Womack he is a complete waste of a roster spot
Let Gordon Sign somewhere else (we get the team's 1st round pick and get a supplementary pick if he signs with a team that is picking 16-30. This should offset the loss of losing our 1st and 2nd round pick for signing Ryan and Giles)

Sign Octavio Dotel to a contract similar to Lieber = 5M/2yrs

If available sign Daisuke Matsuzaka to 28M/4yrs (I'm just taking a guess here, I really don't know what it would take to sign him)
Most probably Matsuzaka would be in the bullpen in 2006, but in 2007 we could slide him into the rotation when we let Mussina go and buyout Wright's 2008 season for 4 Million since he's already spent more than 75 days on the DL.

Lineup

1- SS Jeter = 19M
2 -RF Giles = 12M (Assuming he would sign a 36M/3yrs)
3- 3rd Arod = 20M
4- 1st Giambi = 18M
5- DH Sheffield = 13M
6- LF Matsui = 12M (Assuming he would sign a 36/3yrs)
7- CF Bradley 3M (he should probably get around 3M in arbitration) or Wilkerson 5M (he should get probably around 5M in arbitration)
8- C Posada = 8M
9 -2nd Cano = .3M

Total = 105.3M with Bradley
Total = 107.3M with Wilkerson

Starters
10 - Johnson = 16M
11- Mussina = 17M
12- Pavano = 8M
13- Wright = 7M
14- Chacon = 3M (He should get around 3M in arbitration)

Total = 51M

Bullpen
15- Rivera = 10.5M
16- Small = .3M
17- Wang = .3M
18- Sturtze = 1.5M (assuming option is picked up) If Sturtze starts losing it again we have Dotel = 2.5M
19 - Ryan = 6M (assuming he signs a 24M/4yrs)
20 - Smith = .3M (If we get Matsuzaka(=7M), he probably take Smith's spot)

Total = 22.4 without Matsuzaka
Total = 29.1 with Matsuzaka

Bench
21 - Backup 1st - Lee or Snow = 2M (assuming he signs a 2M/1yr)
22 - Backup Catcher - Pratt = 1M (assuming he signs a 1M/1yr)
23 - Backup Infielder - Cairo = 1.5M (assuming he signs a 1.5M/1yr)
24 - 4th Outfielder - Crosby = .3M or Rivera = .3M or Kapler = .750M (These are just some ideas, I don't know what to do for the 4th Outfielder.)
25 - Backup infielder or outfielder = Pick one (Andy Phillips = .3M or Mike Vento = .3M Kevin Reese = .3M or Kevin Thompson = .3M)
Cut - Womack = 2M (Since I can't think of anyone that would want him, I would just cut him and eat the 2M. He is wasting a roster space)

Total = 7.1M

Total cost for 25 man roster = 191.5M

Including Buyouts (I think these are all the buyouts)
Bernie Williams = 3.5M
Steve Karsay = 1.5M
Tino Martinez = .25M

Total = 5.25

Total cost = 196.75M

I donít think this year is the year to drastically reduce payroll especially 10%, too many big contracts and the talent in the minors isnít ready to replace them, it will probably come next year and the year after when we lose after 2006 (Mussina = 17M, Sheffield = 13M, Womack = 2M, Sturtze = 1.5, Wright = 3M (we still have to give him a 4M buyout)) and after 2007 (Posada = 12M and Johnson = 16M). Our young guns (DeSlavo, White, Clippard, Cox, and Henn) should be ready by then.


The only trade I made was for Bradley or Wilkerson because that is one we have to make. I couldn't say just trade Posada, Pavano, or Wright because I don't know if there is a market for them so I had to bite the bullet and keep them and hopefully they can turn it around next season.
A great effort by you, though, I don't agree with your salary numbers because I think Giles is a little high while the others are too low. As far as the Yankees 2006 payroll, my speculation is that they're aiming towards 185-190M range.

ppa79
11-06-05, 09:52 AM
A great effort by you, though, I don't agree with your salary numbers because I think Giles is a little high while the others are too low. As far as the Yankees 2006 payroll, my speculation is that they're aiming towards 185-190M range.

After adding the signing bonuses it looks like there will be no decrease in Yankee Team Salary in 2006 with my changes. There are too many high salaried players on this team to really do anything. (Jeter, Giambi, Arod, Mussina, Johnson) We have to wait until they come off the books. :(

jyjjy
11-06-05, 10:57 AM
I think Giles will end up getting around 10-11 mill per year.
Some of your numbers for next year's payroll aren't quite right. Here are the correct numbers;
Jeter - 20
Moose - 19
Giambi - 19
A-Rod - 15.5(assuming Texas' portion is distributed equally over the years)
Posada - 13.5
Wright - 7.66

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005_01_03_mlbcontracts_archive.html

ppa79
11-06-05, 11:06 AM
I think Giles will end up getting around 10-11 mill per year.
Some of your numbers for next year's payroll aren't quite right. Here are the correct numbers;
Jeter - 20
Moose - 19
Giambi - 19
A-Rod - 15.5(assuming Texas' portion is distributed equally over the years)
Posada - 13.5
Wright - 7.66

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005_01_03_mlbcontracts_archive.html



I used this website

http://www.mlb4u.com/nyy.html

I think I know what I did, I don't think I included the signing bonuses paid over the length of the contract. Thanks for pointing that out.

Sam2448
11-06-05, 11:13 AM
I feel that Brian Giles is tremendously overrated around here. But he is the best option avaliable so I'd be happy if they signed him. Having said that, if they sign him instead of Matsui, heads will roll. I'd be thrilled with Giles as long as he is NOT replacing Matsui.

justinvarnes
11-06-05, 11:49 AM
I think it's fairly obvious that they Yankees think Matsui is more valuable and they are correct in that assessment.

It seems as though their plan is to Re-Sign Matsui, then find a CF.

IF they can't re-sign matsui (HIGHLY unlikely), they would make a strong push for Giles.

IF they re-sign Matsui, but fail to come up with a good CF solution, then they would consider Giles in LF and Matsui in CF.

But electing to pass up matsui for giles does not seem like their plan,and rightly so.

Personally I like Giles in LF, Matusi in CF (he is a better CF than LF) and Sheff in RF, with Bubba spelling sheff and giles.

Wade_Taylor
11-06-05, 12:30 PM
I agree with the sentiment that this is posturing by the Yankees and Cashman. Obviously their first priority is to sign Matsui, but I think they got the word out via the press that they are interested in Giles mainly to create some leverage in negotiations with Matsui so that Tellem cannot totally hold their feet to the fire.

AMYanks
11-06-05, 12:33 PM
I feel that Brian Giles is tremendously overrated around here. But he is the best option avaliable so I'd be happy if they signed him. Having said that, if they sign him instead of Matsui, heads will roll. I'd be thrilled with Giles as long as he is NOT replacing Matsui.

How is he "tremendously overrated" on here?

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 12:42 PM
I believe that signing Giles is a big risk. He is the quintessential small market star player who might not be able to reproduce his numbers in NY. Matsui has come here and done nothing but produced without missing a game. I prefer to take the known quantity and quality instead of taking a risk with a player whose best days are behind him. However, if this is simply a ploy to get Tellem to reduce his demands then so be it.

Sam18
11-06-05, 02:14 PM
Giles is both a better fielder and a better hitter(by a lot) than Matsui, how is he overrated?

rightfielder21
11-06-05, 02:19 PM
He is the quintessential small market star player who might not be able to reproduce his numbers in NY.

That is total conjecture on your part...

yanksphan
11-06-05, 02:27 PM
Giles is both a better fielder and a better hitter(by a lot) than Matsui, how is he overrated?

a better hitter? Yes.

A better fielder? eh...it's a wash. I watched the guy for almost 80 games this year, and it was a lot like watching Sheff in the field. LOTS of balls falling at his feet leaving you wondering - "why didn't he catch that?"

Sam18
11-06-05, 02:48 PM
a better hitter? Yes.

A better fielder? eh...it's a wash. I watched the guy for almost 80 games this year, and it was a lot like watching Sheff in the field. LOTS of balls falling at his feet leaving you wondering - "why didn't he catch that?"

Would he be better than Sheff in right then?

longtimeyankeefan
11-06-05, 03:15 PM
My suggestion is that you use this site:

http://russells.freeshell.org/ddollars/team.php?team=yankees&name=Yankees

It gives both salary cap and cash numbers for contracts, as well as cash in/out, etc.

Best site I have found.

Rich
11-06-05, 03:41 PM
That is total conjecture on your part...

You're too kind.

yanksphan
11-06-05, 04:18 PM
Would he be better than Sheff in right then?

Perhaps - Sheff has it MUCH easier right now with less ground to cover at YS. Petco is pretty spacious, although they do have that "porch" in RF. YS might cut down on Giles' coverage area though.

My point though is that I can remember more "should have been caughts" than I would prefer by Giles though.

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 04:26 PM
That is total conjecture on your part...


I did say "may". He is still not a risk that I would deem worth taking at 35yo when there are other options. I'd rather have Wilkerson.

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 04:31 PM
Giles is both a better fielder and a better hitter(by a lot) than Matsui, how is he overrated?



Didn't someone post UZR #s showing the sameness of Matsui and Giles defensively. As far as a better hitter, the numbers(2005) beside OBP do not bear this out. Tell me about park factors and I'll tell you to look at Yankee stadiums effect on RHH, then I will show you Sheff and Arod. Giles power is declining and coming to a breaking ball league is not going to change that for the better.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-06-05, 04:35 PM
Didn't someone post UZR #s showing the sameness of Matsui and Giles defensively. As far as a better hitter, the numbers beside OBP do not bear this out. Tell me about park factors and I'll tell you to look at Yankee stadiums effect on RHH, then I will show you Sheff and Arod. Giles power is declining and coming to a breaking ball league is not going to change that for the better.

How is his power declining? Over the past 3 years in Petco his slugging has hovered around .500?

2003: .490
2004: .475
2005: .483

Giles arm strength and arm accuracy is far better than Matsui's...

Yankees1962
11-06-05, 04:41 PM
How is his power declining? Over the past 3 years in Petco his slugging has hovered around .500?

2003: .490
2004: .475
2005: .483

Giles arm strength and arm accuracy is far better than Matsui's...
How do you quantify the arm accuracy?

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 04:45 PM
How is his power declining? Over the past 3 years in Petco his slugging has hovered around .500?

2003: .490
2004: .475
2005: .483

Giles arm strength and arm accuracy is far better than Matsui's...


When a 35 yo 30+ hr hitter drops down to 15 it is a reason to be concerned.
I appreciate arm strength and accuracy as much as any one else, but you are making Giles arm sound like Vlad's or Ichiro's and that just not the case. Giles is a solid fielder who can catch and throw the ball, but to make him into something that he is not just to prove your point is silly.

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 04:46 PM
How do you quantify the arm accuracy?


He can't.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-06-05, 04:56 PM
When a 35 yo 30+ hr hitter drops down to 15 it is a reason to be concerned.
I appreciate arm strength and accuracy as much as any one else, but you are making Giles arm sound like Vlad's or Ichiro's and that just not the case. Giles is a solid fielder who can catch and throw the ball, but to make him into something that he is not just to prove your point is silly.

Its really not that silly when you look at his numbers away from Petco, last year he slugged .545 away from home. I'm not looking for him to slug 30+ HRs, but if he gets on base at a clip of his career average of .413 and slugs around .500, I'd be very pleased. A move to YS, a lefty friendly park, I could easily see him hitting around 20+ HRs. But yes, its very silly to think any player is better than Matsui. ..

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=5543


Giles' arm is above average and quite accurate.

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 05:03 PM
Its really not that silly when you look at his numbers away from Petco, last year he slugged .545 away from home. I'm not looking for him to slug 30+ HRs, but if he gets on base at a clip of his career average of .413 and slugs around .500, I'd be very pleased. A move to YS, a lefty friendly park, I could easily see him hitting around 20+ HRs. But yes, its very silly to think any player is better than Matsui. ..

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=5543


What was silly was your implication that there was some defensive chasm between the two aforementioned players. The difference is minimal. You closing statement is fallacious. I have never implied any such thing. I have always been a Giles fan, but imo another middle of the order hitter is not what this team needs. Especially not a 35 yo one who the Yankees will probably have to overpay to play here.

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 05:05 PM
Its really not that silly when you look at his numbers away from Petco, last year he slugged .545 away from home. I'm not looking for him to slug 30+ HRs, but if he gets on base at a clip of his career average of .413 and slugs around .500, I'd be very pleased. A move to YS, a lefty friendly park, I could easily see him hitting around 20+ HRs. But yes, its very silly to think any player is better than Matsui. ..

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=5543


OTOH I'm all for Giles if they trade Sheff.

Rich
11-06-05, 05:08 PM
OPS+ 2003-2005

Giles:148, 126, 148

Matsui: 111, 139, 125

I would rather give Giles a three year contract than give Matsui a four year contract.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-06-05, 05:11 PM
What was silly was your implication that there was some defensive chasm between the two aforementioned players. The difference is minimal. You closing statement is fallacious. I have never implied any such thing. I have always been a Giles fan, but imo another middle of the order hitter is not what this team needs. Especially not a 35 yo one who the Yankees will probably have to overpay to play here.

As I said before Giles arm strength and accuracy is far better than Matsui's. This isn't my opinion but its a fact. If I had to choose between the two to play the field, it would be Giles because of this. Giles would make a perfect number two hitter, and would most likely keep Sheffield out of right where he has played horrific defense. Giles has shown no signs of declining, unlike Bernie who did. A 3 year deal would be perfect and I would overpay because he would improve this team by so much...

AMYanks
11-06-05, 05:11 PM
When a 35 yo 30+ hr hitter drops down to 15 it is a reason to be concerned.

If you're not going to factor in the effects of Petco Park, then it's not fair to Giles.

His OPS+ last year was higher than his career OPS+. That tells me he is the same level of hitter he was 4 or 5 years ago, but has been hurt by Petco Park.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-06-05, 05:12 PM
OPS+ 2003-2005

Giles:148, 126, 148

Matsui: 111, 139, 125

I would rather give Giles a three year contract than give Matsui a four year contract.

I'd rather give Giles a 3 year contract than Matsui a 3 year contract but it would be best to give them both 3 year contracts...

Rich
11-06-05, 05:13 PM
I'd rather give Giles a 3 year contract than Matsui a 3 year contract but it would be best to give them both 3 year contracts...

My reasoning is that Matsui is three years younger.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-06-05, 05:28 PM
My reasoning is that Matsui is three years younger.

I'm not following your reasoning, the difference is only a year...

Rich
11-06-05, 05:34 PM
I'm not following your reasoning, the difference is only a year...

I just think it's more likely that Matsui will maintain his level of play over the next three years than Giles, but because I am opposed to giving Matsui more than three years, I would overlook the general rule, and give Giles the three year contract if Matsui insists on a fourth year.

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 05:34 PM
If you're not going to factor in the effects of Petco Park, then it's not fair to Giles.

His OPS+ last year was higher than his career OPS+. That tells me he is the same level of hitter he was 4 or 5 years ago, but has been hurt by Petco Park.


Why should I? Yankee stadium isn't exactly easy on RHH and yet Sheff and Arod have superior power #s to Giles.

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 05:36 PM
As I said before Giles arm strength and accuracy is far better than Matsui's. This isn't my opinion but its a fact. If I had to choose between the two to play the field, it would be Giles because of this. Giles would make a perfect number two hitter, and would most likely keep Sheffield out of right where he has played horrific defense. Giles has shown no signs of declining, unlike Bernie who did. A 3 year deal would be perfect and I would overpay because he would improve this team by so much...

Prove to me that your opinion of Giles arm strenght and accuracy being far superior to Matsui is indeed fact and not just your opinion.

noneckwilliams
11-06-05, 05:47 PM
I just think it's more likely that Matsui will maintain his level of play over the next three years than Giles, but because I am opposed to giving Matsui more than three years, I would overlook the general rule, and give Giles the three year contract if Matsui insists on a fourth year.

Matsui is a known quantity. I think it's important to maintain some continuity on the roster. We know what he can do under the spotlight of NYC. If he insisted on 4 years I'd give it to him. Remember he's 2 or 3 years younger than Giles.

dabomb2045
11-06-05, 05:49 PM
Im still failing to see why we cant sign both Matsui and Giles

Rich
11-06-05, 05:58 PM
Matsui is a known quantity. I think it's important to maintain some continuity on the roster. We know what he can do under the spotlight of NYC. If he insisted on 4 years I'd give it to him. Remember he's 2 or 3 years younger than Giles.

Giles is a known quantity too, and he's better.

AMYanks
11-06-05, 05:59 PM
Why should I? Yankee stadium isn't exactly easy on RHH and yet Sheff and Arod have superior power #s to Giles.

You can bring it up as much as you want, but statistics that are park adjusted show that Giles was hurt tremendously by Petco Park, and infact is still a great hitter who is not on any sort of decline.

One thing, A-Rod uses the entire stadium to his advantage for power, he doesn't just hit them constantly to death valley. It's also unfair to use A-Rod because he is obviously a superior player to Giles.

Galapagos
11-06-05, 06:01 PM
Why should I? Yankee stadium isn't exactly easy on RHH and yet Sheff and Arod have superior power #s to Giles.

Petco is one of the worst hitting parks in baseball. In Sheffield's case, he is less effected by Yankee stadium because he pulls so many balls directly down the LF line. A-Rod has power to all fields, but I have no problem admitting that Alex Rodriguez is a superior hitter to Brian Giles. The fact is, Petco, by reputation and by statistical analysis, severely inhibits offense, and that shows if you look at the production of the Padres lineup. Is it coincidence that Giles was a 35+ homer a year guy until he became a Padre two years ago? I would expect him to hit about 25 home runs as a Yankee next year, and, more importantly, get on base close to 45% of the time.

yank4life2005
11-06-05, 06:36 PM
Giles can play RF, Sheff to DH, Bradley to CF and Matsui in LF. This would improve our defense by getting Sheffield out of the field and Bradley in CF.

dabomb2045
11-06-05, 06:37 PM
Giles can play RF, Sheff to DH, Bradley to CF and Matsui in LF. This would improve our defense by getting Sheffield out of the field and Bradley in CF.


that would be my plan

DaddyYankee279
11-06-05, 06:40 PM
great idea, but your leaving Jason to play frist most of the time or siting out.
that would be my plan

AMYanks
11-06-05, 06:45 PM
great idea, but your leaving Jason to play frist most of the time or siting out.

Considering his drastically better numbers when playing 1B, he has to be in the field most games.

yank4life2005
11-06-05, 06:47 PM
Giles is not coming to NY. I think his agent is just posturing as most agents do.

DaddyYankee279
11-06-05, 06:57 PM
Putting him on frist most of the games is just like saying here make a new record for most hits given in a game.
Considering his drastically better numbers when playing 1B, he has to be in the field most games.

chanman7483
11-06-05, 07:04 PM
Why should I? Yankee stadium isn't exactly easy on RHH and yet Sheff and Arod have superior power #s to Giles.

This is a good point... if someone could take the time to come up with "pitchers parks" and how players have done when moving to them after doing well in a "hitters park", it'd probably be pretty interesting.

JapanJobbers
11-06-05, 08:01 PM
Giles is not coming to NY. I think his agent is just posturing as most agents do.

I agree. Although if for some reason Matsui leaves, I could see the Yankees make Giles an offer he can't refuse.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-06-05, 08:02 PM
Trade Sheff for top prospects for the farm, sign giles to take his place, re-sign matsui and get Milton Bradley in a low risk high reward deal to play center. Alternate scenario would be tradeing Sheff directly for a centerfielder.

pedromartinezfan
11-06-05, 08:11 PM
Because his career EqA of .322 is the 24th best ever behind Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Thomas, Gehrig, Pujols, Mantle, McGwire, Manny, Hornsby, Musial, Edgar Martinez, Giambi, Thome, Foxx, DiMaggio, Ott, Brouthers, Greenberg, Mize, Mays, Aaron, and Cobb.

Rich
11-06-05, 08:14 PM
This is a good point... if someone could take the time to come up with "pitchers parks" and how players have done when moving to them after doing well in a "hitters park", it'd probably be pretty interesting.

Park adjusted stats make that unnecessary.

SINCE77 2
11-06-05, 08:38 PM
Petco is one of the worst hitting parks in baseball. In Sheffield's case, he is less effected by Yankee stadium because he pulls so many balls directly down the LF line. A-Rod has power to all fields, but I have no problem admitting that Alex Rodriguez is a superior hitter to Brian Giles. The fact is, Petco, by reputation and by statistical analysis, severely inhibits offense, and that shows if you look at the production of the Padres lineup. Is it coincidence that Giles was a 35+ homer a year guy until he became a Padre two years ago? I would expect him to hit about 25 home runs as a Yankee next year, and, more importantly, get on base close to 45% of the time.

I don't agree. Giles hit bombs as a Pirate that would have been out in any park. Perhaps it was all the wear and tear in Pittsburg or maybe age, but I don't buy the park adjusted stats.
As I previously mentioned in another post, I have no problem acquiring Giles if we trade Sheff, but my problem is that Giles is another middle of the order hitter whose talents would be better utilized on another team. Giles is a vg player without doubt, but I was hoping the Yankees would be looking in another direction. In truth Wilkerson could probably give us similar #s for less than half the price, give us a real #2 hitter and is 7 years younger.

Rich
11-06-05, 08:44 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

6. v. .25

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-06-05, 09:02 PM
Prove to me that your opinion of Giles arm strenght and accuracy being far superior to Matsui is indeed fact and not just your opinion.

I've already shown you a scouting report stating that Giles has a strong arm with good accuracy. I've seen Matsui play all the time, and his defense isn't good. He has a weak arm often inaccurate when he attempts to throw a runner out and he has a hard time going back on the ball.


He does not take great routes to the ball and his weak arm is no secret to AL third-base coaches.

http://feeds.foxsports.com/mlb/playerScouting?categoryId=114762

These reports are coming from independent scouting companies, I'm not making this stuff up...

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-06-05, 09:12 PM
I don't agree. Giles hit bombs as a Pirate that would have been out in any park. Perhaps it was all the wear and tear in Pittsburg or maybe age, but I don't buy the park adjusted stats.

Is there any logical reason you don't buy into park adjusted stats?



As I previously mentioned in another post, I have no problem acquiring Giles if we trade Sheff, but my problem is that Giles is another middle of the order hitter whose talents would be better utilized on another team.

I'm glad your looking out for other teams...



Giles is a vg player without doubt, but I was hoping the Yankees would be looking in another direction. In truth Wilkerson could probably give us similar #s for less than half the price, give us a real #2 hitter and is 7 years younger.

His numbers wouldn't be similar and he also isn't a free agent. Your not getting him for cheap because the market for a CFer is very thin, if he is made available many teams will also be in the market for him. Where can you find a better #2 hitter who gets on base around 45% of the time?

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-06-05, 09:18 PM
im for giles if we trade sheff for either a center fielder or prospects. I love Sheffield but he has a horrible attitude(at times, there are also times where i love his attitude) and is the only tradeable guy on the team that can be replaced.

panicfan
11-06-05, 10:59 PM
Can someone explain why everyone is so hot on a 35 year old guy? Do we need another guy who's gonna fall apart before our eyes? Just curious...

Galapagos
11-06-05, 11:07 PM
Can someone explain why everyone is so hot on a 35 year old guy? Do we need another guy who's gonna fall apart before our eyes? Just curious...

Try reading the thread. The fact that he's one of the best and most underrated hitters in baseball probably has something to do with it. And, just to note, he's completely healthy at this point.

chanman7483
11-06-05, 11:42 PM
Park adjusted stats make that unnecessary.

What happens when guys like Sheff and Arod perform near their career averages upon arrival at YS? Or Bonds in a large park like they have in San Fran? Are they considered outliers and ignored?

Kulish29
11-07-05, 12:00 AM
Can someone explain why everyone is so hot on a 35 year old guy? Do we need another guy who's gonna fall apart before our eyes? Just curious...

Because for a guy who is 35, he still puts up amazing numbers.

Galapagos
11-07-05, 12:03 AM
What happens when guys like Sheff and Arod perform near their career averages upon arrival at YS? Or Bonds in a large park like they have in San Fran? Are they considered outliers and ignored?

Sheff's numbers are significantly worse than they were in Atlanta. A-Rod, being the unique talent that he is, has power to all fields, and you'll notice that he hit a number of his home runs this year to right-center field. Furthermore, he still hasn't matched the numbers he put up in Arlington. Regarding Bonds, you're completely wrong. That park was designed to maximize his effectiveness.

Honestly, are people trying to deny that park effects exist?

chanman7483
11-07-05, 12:14 AM
Sheff's numbers are significantly worse than they were in Atlanta. A-Rod, being the unique talent that he is, has power to all fields, and you'll notice that he hit a number of his home runs this year to right-center field. Furthermore, he still hasn't matched the numbers he put up in Arlington. Regarding Bonds, you're completely wrong. That park was designed to maximize his effectiveness.

Honestly, are people trying to deny that park effects exist?

It was an honest question... I haven't read that much into park factors, etc... no need for accusations.

San Fran is 307 down the line, pretty damn short... but 420 to right center... 404 to Dead center... that's not really that small... PF of .93, 19th least favorable stadium in the majors.

BTW, the reason I brought up Sheffield was his stats... he had 2 seasons in the ATL, one below his career average and one outstanding year... and his NY #'s have been somewhere in the middle... can you please clarify your statement regarding his stast being significantly worse? I can't find anything in the "significant" range... (btw, Sheff hit a career high 43 HRs as a Dodger... PF for Dodger Stadium is .825, one of the worst... and ATL's PF is .655, 2nd to last and yet he still had an incredible year)

Regarding ARod, I'm giving him a flier on his first year in NY ... pressure, expectations, adjusting, etc. It wasn't the normal ARod for whatever reason. This year was the normal ARod. Taking this into consideration and looking at the stats, I see that his SLG # was just .13 lower than his highest year in TEX and .1 higher than his lowest. He also hit 1 more HR last year than his last year in Texas. He had a career year with 57 one year, but his avg for the 3 years was 52. 81 games in Arlington netted 4 more extra HRs a year, or one more HR every 20.25 games, or 1 extra HR every 81 at bats. In other words, there has been little difference in his power since leaving Texas. Regarding your point about his HRs to Right center, from what I've seen and what I'd assume, he didn't just start smacking them to right center upon arrival to YS...I'm pretty sure that he's not only been doing that for his whole career, but his whole LIFE. That's why he's considered one of the best hitters ever.


My focus is on these 3 players(they're just off the top of my head, others are possible), as they seem to be the exception... my question was an honest one... do you ignore the exceptions / outliers? Include examples/stats if possible...

This is my first time ever looking at PF's... I notice that some of the bottom stadiums are homes of the following teams: Diamondbacks, Braves, Athetlics, Angels, Dodgers, Padres, Mariners, Tigers, Mets, Brewers. With the exception of a couple of hitters in a couple of each of their lineups, none of the teams have what I'd consider legit power threats. I'm sure some of this has to do with the size of the park and how far the walls are from home plate, but could the sucktitude of each respective lineups also have something to do w/ PFs, as the scoring ability is factored in... or is there another measure that negates this as well? The reason I bring this up is you have some of the following teams with GREAT PFs at the top: Royals, Twins, Pirates, Astros... all crappy offensive teams. What gives?

Galapagos
11-07-05, 08:07 AM
It was an honest question... I haven't read that much into park factors, etc... no need for accusations.

San Fran is 307 down the line, pretty damn short... but 420 to right center... 404 to Dead center... that's not really that small... PF of .93, 19th least favorable stadium in the majors.

But Bonds is a dead pull hitter, so he almost exclusively uses that part of the stadium. As I said, it was designed to maximize his effectiveness.


BTW, the reason I brought up Sheffield was his stats... he had 2 seasons in the ATL, one below his career average and one outstanding year... and his NY #'s have been somewhere in the middle... can you please clarify your statement regarding his stast being significantly worse? I can't find anything in the "significant" range... (btw, Sheff hit a career high 43 HRs as a Dodger... PF for Dodger Stadium is .825, one of the worst... and ATL's PF is .655, 2nd to last and yet he still had an incredible year)

In Sheffield's case, he hasn't played in a hitters' park since 1993. And, as you've seen, he also pulls the ball straight down the line at Yankee Stadium, where its only 318. But his OPS has definitely declined since becoming a Yankee. As a Yankee, he has a .909 OPS. His OPSes the prior 4 years: 1.081, 1.000, .916, 1.023.


Regarding ARod, I'm giving him a flier on his first year in NY ... pressure, expectations, adjusting, etc. It wasn't the normal ARod for whatever reason. This year was the normal ARod. Taking this into consideration and looking at the stats, I see that his SLG # was just .13 lower than his highest year in TEX and .1 higher than his lowest. He also hit 1 more HR last year than his last year in Texas. He had a career year with 57 one year, but his avg for the 3 years was 52. 81 games in Arlington netted 4 more extra HRs a year, or one more HR every 20.25 games, or 1 extra HR every 81 at bats. In other words, there has been little difference in his power since leaving Texas. Regarding your point about his HRs to Right center, from what I've seen and what I'd assume, he didn't just start smacking them to right center upon arrival to YS...I'm pretty sure that he's not only been doing that for his whole career, but his whole LIFE. That's why he's considered one of the best hitters ever.

Thats the point. Because he's always been adept at using the whole field, he's more likely to maintain production in a stadium that doesn't seem to favor his type of hitter. Also, he appears to have had a career year. Last year, he had an .888 OPS, this year a 1.031.


My focus is on these 3 players(they're just off the top of my head, others are possible), as they seem to be the exception... my question was an honest one... do you ignore the exceptions / outliers? Include examples/stats if possible...

They aren't "exceptions." Sheffield has declined, Bonds is still in a park that was designed around him, and A-Rod's career averages are better than what he's done as a Yankee. He had a career year this year, and that should be discounted as much as his down year last year. And, as I've said, he's going to be less affected because of the type of hitter he is. Park factors are based on actual performance, so all the examples and stats you want are available if you choose to look them up.


This is my first time ever looking at PF's... I notice that some of the bottom stadiums are homes of the following teams: Diamondbacks, Braves, Athetlics, Angels, Dodgers, Padres, Mariners, Tigers, Mets, Brewers. With the exception of a couple of hitters in a couple of each of their lineups, none of the teams have what I'd consider legit power threats. I'm sure some of this has to do with the size of the park and how far the walls are from home plate, but could the sucktitude of each respective lineups also have something to do w/ PFs, as the scoring ability is factored in... or is there another measure that negates this as well? The reason I bring this up is you have some of the following teams with GREAT PFs at the top: Royals, Twins, Pirates, Astros... all crappy offensive teams. What gives?

I don't know what you're trying to imply. Park Factors are based on offensive output of a team at home versus on the road, and the pitching performance of a team at home versus on the road. The Royals, Twins, Pirates, and Astros are bad hitting teams everywhere. That shouldn't, and doesn't, have any effect on the park factor of their home parks. This seems rather elementary to me. Some parks have dimensions that are more conducive to offensive performance. Offensive production will tend to be higher in those parks. Do I really need to "prove" that bigger stadiums are harder to hit in than places like Fenway and Wrigley?

Yankee Bulldawg
11-07-05, 08:39 AM
no disrespect but i would rather Bubba Crosby in CF over Brian Giles

I Love Wang
11-07-05, 11:14 AM
no disrespect but i would rather Bubba Crosby in CF over Brian Giles

I'm not advocating Giles in CF, but there's no way a team would be better off with Crosby then Giles as their CF.

SINCE77 2
11-07-05, 08:46 PM
Is there any logical reason you don't buy into park adjusted stats?



I'm glad your looking out for other teams...



His numbers wouldn't be similar and he also isn't a free agent. Your not getting him for cheap because the market for a CFer is very thin, if he is made available many teams will also be in the market for him. Where can you find a better #2 hitter who gets on base around 45% of the time?




1. I never said I didn't buy into park adjusted stats in general. What I did say was that I don't buy into the fact that Giles power #s will suddenly improve because he leaves Petco. Furthermore since he does play approx. 50% of his games elsewhere and still couldn't break the 20 homer mark, there is reason to be concerned.


2. Yes, I do look for a semblance of parity in baseball. It would be sad to have a 2-6 of Arod, Sheff, Giles, Matsui, and Giambi and still lose in the postseason. I guess individuals like yourself could care less and would look to grab the next name in shiny lights the following season.

3. For all intents and purposes Wilkerson will probably be a bench player next season and will make about $5mill next season. Cheap for the Yankees but not for about 20 other teams. Most teams already have established CF for 2006 so the market is not as competitive as you think. Of the top of my head, the only 2 teams in the AL that need a CF for 2006 are the Yankees and Boston. That number is probably the same in the NL. With guys like Damon and Jones available via FA and Hunter available via trade, Wilkerson will be the last guy looked at, especially since he really isn't an impact player.

SINCE77 2
11-07-05, 09:10 PM
I've already shown you a scouting report stating that Giles has a strong arm with good accuracy. I've seen Matsui play all the time, and his defense isn't good. He has a weak arm often inaccurate when he attempts to throw a runner out and he has a hard time going back on the ball.



http://feeds.foxsports.com/mlb/playerScouting?categoryId=114762

These reports are coming from independent scouting companies, I'm not making this stuff up...



Giles assist:
2003: 6
2004: 8
2005: 6

Matsui assist:
2003: 13 (2nd in AL)
2004: 8
2005 7

Actually Matsui's arm is pretty accurate and his rapid release of the ball makes up for the lack of arm strength. Matsui also plays LF so we are talking apples and oranges. Put Giles in RF and he would be a downgrade arm strength wise to Sheff.
Their range factors and fpct are also very close. To compare them defensively is like splitting hairs. We would be getting essentially the same defensive player, just a few years older. I go with the younger guy.

yanksphan
11-07-05, 09:46 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/362966p-309160c.html


In the past, Giles has had a no-trade clause covering every team except the five in California plus Colorado and Atlanta, where his brother, Marcus, plays. Bick said Giles would consider everything now, though.

"That won't be an issue," Bick said. "Brian wants to win."


Perhaps just some early posturing, but it leads me to believe the "won't play on the East Coast" isn't true.

SINCE77 2
11-07-05, 09:52 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/362966p-309160c.html




Perhaps just some early posturing, but it leads me to believe the "won't play on the East Coast" isn't true.


Once any player appears interested in or is sought after by a team like the Yankees his potential payday increases. I still don't think he wants to play here.

YankeePride1967
11-07-05, 10:22 PM
Once any player appears interested in or is sought after by a team like the Yankees his potential payday increases. I still don't think he wants to play here.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/362966p-309160c.html




Perhaps just some early posturing, but it leads me to believe the "won't play on the East Coast" isn't true.

I agree with Since77 on this. I have been a Yankee fan long enough to know that no player will say he won't play for the Yankees -- until he's signed the deal he wants elsewhere. I remember Mark Langston and Jack Morris using the Yanks and I believe Maddux and Bonds did the same thing after 1992. Any player that publically says he doesn't want to come to NY (or the northeast for that matter) will impair the money he gets.

Captain Yankee
11-07-05, 10:59 PM
Did somebody really say Sheffield's numbers were significantly worse than they were in Atlanta? Can somebody please let this guy know that Sheffield is still one of the most devastating hitters in the league?

chanman7483
11-08-05, 12:45 AM
Did somebody really say Sheffield's numbers were significantly worse than they were in Atlanta? Can somebody please let this guy know that Sheffield is still one of the most devastating hitters in the league?

Yeah, that was above... It was in reference to something I said.

He's right though - - His #'s are down from his years in LA and down from his #'s in ATL... I woudln't say SIGNIFICANTLY, but they are down. That being said, he is still one of the game's best hitters and a nightmare for every team with men on.

Kulish29
11-08-05, 01:06 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/362966p-309160c.html


"That won't be an issue," Bick said. "Brian wants to win."

So why in the blue hell would he consider the Mariners? That STILL boggles my mind.

I Love Wang
11-08-05, 01:26 AM
Did somebody really say Sheffield's numbers were significantly worse than they were in Atlanta? Can somebody please let this guy know that Sheffield is still one of the most devastating hitters in the league?

The numbers were posted. How can you argue with them?

ring403
11-11-05, 08:48 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/364549p-310390c.html
One player who would not be classified as an "audition" in center is free agent Brian Giles, who played 17 games in center field for the Padres last year and has played 300 there over his 11-year career. Giles is the sort of offensive player that top Yankee evaluators love, with a high on-base percentage (.423 last year) and good patience (119 walks to just 64 strikeouts in 2005). There is some skepticism within the organization about whether he'd be suited to handle playing center field every day, but the Yankees made contact with Giles' agent, Joe Bick, during the period when free agents could talk money only with their former clubs and are expected to check back with Bick now that the exclusivity window has passed.

Privately, the Yankees believe Giles would prefer to remain on the West Coast, but Bick said his client has no geographic restrictions. "I know that's been said, but I can tell you that Brian's preference is to be in a situation where the team has a real chance to win," Bick said in a telephone interview. "There's no doubt, he likes the convenience of being on the West Coast, but he is going into this with a totally open mind."

Bick added that Giles has no preference about which position he plays. http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/31156.htm
Cashman also plans to speak with Brian Giles' agent, Joe Bick, sometime today, according to Bick. That would be at least their third conversation in recent days. Although most baseball observers think it's an either/or situation between Matsui and Giles, the former San Diego right fielder, Bick disagrees.

"I don't think re-signing Matsui is an obstacle," Bick told The Post last night. "I think they'd like to have them both.

"I think the reality is both of those guys can play multiple positions."

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-11-05, 04:07 PM
Giles assist:
2003: 6
2004: 8
2005: 6

Matsui assist:
2003: 13 (2nd in AL)
2004: 8
2005 7

Actually Matsui's arm is pretty accurate and his rapid release of the ball makes up for the lack of arm strength. Matsui also plays LF so we are talking apples and oranges. Put Giles in RF and he would be a downgrade arm strength wise to Sheff.
Their range factors and fpct are also very close. To compare them defensively is like splitting hairs. We would be getting essentially the same defensive player, just a few years older. I go with the younger guy.


Your actually rating defense on outfield assist along with Range Factors and fielding percentage? Thats an absolute joke. Manny led MLB in outfield assist this year...

nyyanksfan20
11-11-05, 05:15 PM
I like the Giles idea, but not for center. However I could see a scenario where Bubba is the CF for 3-4 games a week with Giles playing the other couple games a week. When Giles isn't in center he can split time with Sheff between RF and DH. When he is in center either Jason is the DH and the backup 1B plays or maybe we sign another DH type and Jason will be full time 1B. I think that might work pretty good.

PerfectCone
11-11-05, 05:26 PM
Anyone else notice that Giles' big power seasons coincide with the height of steroid use in baseball? As I recall, he was pretty ripped at that time. This is bothersome to me, how long before he breaks down?

Sam18
11-11-05, 05:29 PM
Anyone else notice that Giles' big power seasons coincide with the height of steroid use in baseball? As I recall, he was pretty ripped at that time. This is bothersome to me, how long before he breaks down?

How do you explain last year then?

yanksphan
11-11-05, 05:37 PM
Anyone else notice that Giles' big power seasons coincide with the height of steroid use in baseball? As I recall, he was pretty ripped at that time. This is bothersome to me, how long before he breaks down?

He's still pretty freakin big. As a high school player he was big. Just one of those big ol' dudes...

AMYanks
11-11-05, 05:40 PM
Anyone else notice that Giles' big power seasons coincide with the height of steroid use in baseball? As I recall, he was pretty ripped at that time. This is bothersome to me, how long before he breaks down?

His HR numbers have dropped because of the stadium he plays in.

PerfectCone
11-11-05, 05:44 PM
How do you explain last year then?

Oh, you must be talking about his whopping 15 homers and 38 doubles? Just as a point of reference, Cano had 34 two baggers.

nyctalopia
11-11-05, 05:45 PM
Your actually rating defense on outfield assist along with Range Factors and fielding percentage? Thats an absolute joke. Manny led MLB in outfield assist this year...
I was hoping somebody would say this ...

PerfectCone
11-11-05, 05:46 PM
His HR numbers have dropped because of the stadium he plays in.

He hit 6 HR's at home and 9 on the road, I'm not quite ready to blame his home stadium for the lack of homerun power.

AMYanks
11-11-05, 05:47 PM
Oh, you must be talking about his whopping 15 homers and 38 doubles? Just as a point of reference, Cano had 34 two baggers.

Giles OPS+ was 148, Cano's was 102.

You can't use that as an argument, considering the stadium Giles played in.

yanksphan
11-11-05, 05:50 PM
He hit 6 HR's at home and 9 on the road, I'm not quite ready to blame his home stadium for the lack of homerun power.

WHy not? The Padres seem to feel that way...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/padres/20051111-9999-1s11padres.html



General Manager Kevin Towers shed light on the Petco plan last night, saying chances are better than 50-50 the club will shorten right-center from 411 feet to as close as 395 feet this offseason. He cautioned that many details on financing and seating aesthetics need to be worked out.

"It'll still be a pitcher's park," Towers said. "It'll be more fair."

The move, part of a long-term strategy, isn't directed at wooing left-handed slugger Brian Giles, the team MVP who today can begin receiving bids from other clubs. But it can only appeal to Giles, whose home run totals plummeted after he was traded to the Padres.


"What it will do is give some of your left-handed power hitters a chance to hit more home runs," Towers said. "Four-eleven, that's big. Maybe you'll see fewer triples. We always said, when (catcher) Ramon Hernandez starts hitting triples, something's wrong."


or you can just keep on assuming if that makes you feel better...

AMYanks
11-11-05, 05:55 PM
He hit 6 HR's at home and 9 on the road, I'm not quite ready to blame his home stadium for the lack of homerun power.

Hitters usually adjust themselves to the park they play in.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-11-05, 08:43 PM
1. I never said I didn't buy into park adjusted stats in general. What I did say was that I don't buy into the fact that Giles power #s will suddenly improve because he leaves Petco. Furthermore since he does play approx. 50% of his games elsewhere and still couldn't break the 20 homer mark, there is reason to be concerned.

You don't have to "buy" into the idea that Giles power numbers will increase when he leaves Petco because they do already. It's a fact...



2. Yes, I do look for a semblance of parity in baseball. It would be sad to have a 2-6 of Arod, Sheff, Giles, Matsui, and Giambi and still lose in the postseason. I guess individuals like yourself could care less and would look to grab the next name in shiny lights the following season.

Yes, Giles is very shiny, but also is one of the most underrated hitters in the game. I want him because of the latter...



3. For all intents and purposes Wilkerson will probably be a bench player next season and will make about $5mill next season. Cheap for the Yankees but not for about 20 other teams. Most teams already have established CF for 2006 so the market is not as competitive as you think. Of the top of my head, the only 2 teams in the AL that need a CF for 2006 are the Yankees and Boston. That number is probably the same in the NL. With guys like Damon and Jones available via FA and Hunter available via trade, Wilkerson will be the last guy looked at, especially since he really isn't an impact player.

If our options are limited to Wilkerson, the Nationals are going to know. There are plenty of teams who can also spend 5 mil on a CFer, its really not that much money. And by the way, I really didn't think he was making that much, I can't find anything that confirms making 5 mil this year. I remember reading he signed a 1 year deal last year worth around 3. Plenty of teams need OFers, Wilkerson has the ability to play many positions. Not many teams are looking to shell out huge L-Term contracts of Damon and Jones, and Hunter just isn't good...

ring403
11-11-05, 11:04 PM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1112,0,4252089.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines
The Yankees are conducting simultaneous negotiations with outfielder Brian Giles' agent, Joe Bick. Giles presumably is a fallback should their talks with Matsui break down. Bick said Cashman called him Friday afternoon from California before boarding his flight home, and they stepped up their talks, discussing comparable players.

Giles has in the past balked at being traded to New York, so although his agent said he would consider such a move, the Yankees probably understand they are a fallback for Giles as well. He has had no-trade clauses involving New York teams in the past. Bick said location "is an issue that's part of the equation but not a determining factor."

nyg02005
11-12-05, 12:21 AM
I still remember giles robbing a HR that is far off the fall. He climbs the fall (facing the wall) and reach for the ball. It was the farthest robbed HR ball from the wall that I saw.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-12-05, 12:30 AM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1112,0,4252089.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

Reminds me of when Matsui was first in negotiations with the Yankees prior to joining them from Japan. The Yankees were also negotiating with Cliff Floyd, to act as leverage in the Matsui talks, and also be there as a fall back if the deal didn't happen. I'd be beyond shocked if Giles is on the Yankees this year.

ring403
11-12-05, 12:43 AM
Reminds me of when Matsui was first in negotiations with the Yankees prior to joining them from Japan. The Yankees were also negotiating with Cliff Floyd, to act as leverage in the Matsui talks, and also be there as a fall back if the deal didn't happen. I'd be beyond shocked if Giles is on the Yankees this year.
This seems to me to be a case of Cashman and Giles' agent, Joe Bick, helping eachother gain some leverage in their respective contract negotiations. I'd be surprised to hear it was anything more.

Enter_Sandman_42
11-12-05, 04:18 AM
Bombers make Giles center of attention (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/364864p-310742c.html)

There was a pause of sorts in the Yankees' negotiations with left fielder Hideki Matsui yesterday as GM Brian Cashman spent most of the day flying back from the GM meetings in California. But before he left, Cashman made contact again with the agent for another outfielder, Brian Giles, who could be developing into a candidate to take over for Bernie Williams in center field.

NewEraYanks2527
11-12-05, 06:24 AM
Bombers make Giles center of attention (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/364864p-310742c.html)

There was a pause of sorts in the Yankees' negotiations with left fielder Hideki Matsui yesterday as GM Brian Cashman spent most of the day flying back from the GM meetings in California. But before he left, Cashman made contact again with the agent for another outfielder, Brian Giles, who could be developing into a candidate to take over for Bernie Williams in center field.
No way does Giles take over in center, that would be a very poor outfield, and an aging one at that.

Sierra Mist
11-12-05, 10:44 AM
I dont want Giles, he's too old. The Yankees need to get younger.

NewEraYanks2527
11-12-05, 11:12 AM
I dont want Giles, he's too old. The Yankees need to get younger.
And REDUCE payroll. The same goes for Furcal really, I would love to have him but now I hear he is seeking 50 million out of whatever deal he signs. I would be very pleased if the Yankees stopped trying to get an All-Star at every position and just focused on solid role players, we have enough All-Stars at this point.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 11:30 AM
At this point, I'd rather Giles over Matsui, considering Matsui's (or his agent's) ridiculous demands.

NewEraYanks2527
11-12-05, 11:47 AM
At this point, I'd rather Giles over Matsui, considering Matsui's (or his agent's) ridiculous demands.
Matsui is 31, Giles is 35, Matsui has played and produced in the New York spotlight, Giles while very capable of shining in New York has yet to do so due to lack of oppertunities. What I am alluding to is that Matsui is longer and has already proven he can produce in New York. Giles is going to command alot of money just like Matsui, personally I would rather keep Matsui.

YankeePride1967
11-12-05, 12:02 PM
I dont want Giles, he's too old. The Yankees need to get younger.

If we sign Giles and get rid of Sierra, we will be getting younger.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 01:45 PM
Matsui is 31, Giles is 35, Matsui has played and produced in the New York spotlight, Giles while very capable of shining in New York has yet to do so due to lack of oppertunities. What I am alluding to is that Matsui is longer and has already proven he can produce in New York. Giles is going to command alot of money just like Matsui, personally I would rather keep Matsui.

We also know that Giles, at 35, is still producing more than Matsui at 31.

Yankees1962
11-12-05, 01:45 PM
At this point, I'd rather Giles over Matsui, considering Matsui's (or his agent's) ridiculous demands.
You haven't seen Giles demands yet and I would wager a bet that they're similar to Matsui's. Giles might not ask for 5 years, but I'm guessing that he doesn't settle for anything less than 3 years with a player's option for a fourth year at around 12M each.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 01:48 PM
I was said that the Yankees are talking to Giles as a backup plan for not sign Matsui by Nov 15.


We also know that Giles, at 35, is still producing more than Matsui at 31.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 01:50 PM
You haven't seen Giles demands yet and I would wager a bet that they're similar to Matsui's. Giles might not ask for 5 years, but I'm guessing that he doesn't settle for anything less than 3 years with a player's option for a fourth year at around 12M each.

If that's the case, we can rush a player like Melky to put him in LF.

Sam18
11-12-05, 01:58 PM
If we sign Giles he'd play LF or RF(with Sheff DH), why don't the writers understand that?

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 02:04 PM
The writers see as the Yankees just looking for another superstar to put on the field or buying their WS. Unlike a fan who wants to see his team win the WS.

Sierra Mist
11-12-05, 02:08 PM
If we sign Giles and get rid of Sierra, we will be getting younger.

Giles would replace Bernie, Sierra isnt going anywhere, he is only 40 yrs old.

Sam18
11-12-05, 02:18 PM
The writers see as the Yankees just looking for another superstar to put on the field or buying their WS. Unlike a fan who wants to see his team win the WS.

You're definitley right on this one. They're always looking for another story.

NewEraYanks2527
11-12-05, 02:31 PM
We also know that Giles, at 35, is still producing more than Matsui at 31.
Really, well here are there stats for the past two years

2004 Giles .284 BA 23 HR 93 RBIs .374 OBP .849 OPS
2005 Giles .301 BA 15HR 83 RBIs .423 OBP .906 OPS

2004 Matsui .298 BA 31 HR 108 RBI .390 OBP .912 OPS
2005 Matsui .305 BA 23 HR 116RBI .367 OBP .863 OPS

Could you please tell me how Giles produces more? These numbers are pretty close, Matsui has had a better batting average both years, he has hit more homeruns each year and driven in more RBIs and has done it all in the New York spotlight. Giles may play in a pitchers park and that is a valid argument but it is also a pitchers park in the National League away from the bright lights of the Bronx. I just dont see it as beneficial to sign an older player that has not ever played for a big market team like the Yankees when we can get similar production out of a player who has already established himself in New York.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 02:34 PM
Giles OPS+ - 148
Matsui OPS+ - 125

Giles produces more.

SINCE77 2
11-12-05, 02:41 PM
We also know that Giles, at 35, is still producing more than Matsui at 31.


Really?

Giles: 164 hits, 38 2b, 8 3b, 15 hr, 263 TB, 119 BB , .423 OBP, .483 Slug, .301 BA


Matsui: 192 hits, 45 2b, 3 3b, 23 HR, 312 TB, 63 BB, .367 OBP, .496 Slug, .305 BA


Giles walks more and hit 5 more triples. Whoopee doo. Matsui had more hits, more homers, more doubles, had better slugging #'s, and collected more total bases as well as hitting for higher average under the spotlight of the NY media and the Japanese media. Giles played in San Diego with zero pressure and probably two reporters.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 02:46 PM
Really?

Giles: 164 hits, 38 2b, 8 3b, 15 hr, 263 TB, 119 BB , .423 OBP, .483 Slug, .301 BA


Matsui: 192 hits, 45 2b, 3 3b, 23 HR, 312 TB, 63 BB, .367 OBP, .496 Slug, .305 BA


Giles walks more and hit 5 more triples. Whoopee doo. Matsui had more hits, more homers, more doubles, had better slugging #'s, and collected more total bases as well as hitting for higher average under the spotlight of the NY media and the Japanese media. Giles played in San Diego with zero pressure and probably two reporters.

You're not adjusting for the park factor. Matsui's home park is very favorable for him, Giles goes very much against him.

If you're not going to use park adjusted statistics, then there's no point in having a conversation.

Those numbers seem like they should give Matsui an advantage, but in OPS+ (which is adjusted to factor in the home park), Giles was a much better hitter last year. It's not just a coincidence.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 02:51 PM
It really doesn't matter who does more or who dosn't, the Yankees have spoken to both of Matsui and Giles, what matters to me is what wouldn't we be able do with both of those numbers on our side, and even though Matsui is the target for now Giles is a good possiblity.

Jaeho
11-12-05, 02:53 PM
You're not adjusting for the park factor. Matsui's home park is very favorable for him, Giles goes very much against him.

If you're not going to use park adjusted statistics, then there's no point in having a conversation.

If you don't realize the difference between Matusi's numbers put up in the pressure cooker of NY and Giles in laid back SD, then there is no point having a conversation with you.

There are some things geeks can't show in statistics.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 02:56 PM
If you don't realize the difference between Matusi's numbers put up in the pressure cooker of NY and Giles in laid back SD, then there is no point having a conversation with you.

There are some things geeks can't show in statistics.

That's basically an excuse for not having any evidence that Matsui is a better player than Giles.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:02 PM
Matsui does not play 162 game in Yankee Stadium, hitting HRs might be easyer for him, but the Stadium has nothing to do with avg, hits, and rbi's. The past 2 years Matsui has had better numbers then Giles.
You're not adjusting for the park factor. Matsui's home park is very favorable for him, Giles goes very much against him.

If you're not going to use park adjusted statistics, then there's no point in having a conversation.

Those numbers seem like they should give Matsui an advantage, but in OPS+ (which is adjusted to factor in the home park), Giles was a much better hitter last year. It's not just a coincidence.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:08 PM
Having the Boss on year neck all season is something players can't handel. The Yankees are expected fo be first at the end of the season and win th WS by the writers, the boss, and the fans. The Padres are behind all season long they don't have to worry about that.
That's basically an excuse for not having any evidence that Matsui is a better player than Giles.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:08 PM
Matsui does not play 162 game in Yankee Stadium, hitting HRs might be easyer for him, but the Stadium has nothing to do with avg, hits, and rbi's. The past 2 years Matsui has had better numbers then Giles.

Matsui's home OPS - .952
Matsui's road OPS - .778

And yes, the stadium does have to do with hits and RBIs. Looking at his hitting chart at MLB.com, Giles lost about 8 HRs at Petco, that would have been HRs in Yankee Stadium.

Also:

Giles' home OPS - .795
Giles' road OPS - 1.008

The park plays a huge factor, as shown in Giles much better OPS+.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:10 PM
Having the Boss on year neck all season is something players can't handel. The Yankees are expected fo be first at the end of the season and win th WS by the writers, the boss, and the fans. The Padres are behind all season long they don't have to worry about that.

I don't understand, the Padres are behind all season long? They were not a very good team, but they won their division this year.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:13 PM
GM Kevin Towers also admits that Petco Park hurt Giles this season.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051111/news_1s11padres.html


INDIAN WELLS Ė In the next few months, the Padres probably will make some far-reaching moves where their outfield is concerned.

Expect the team to shrink the acreage in Petco Park's vast right-center field known as "Death Valley" so that home runs will be easier to hit while the venue remains pitcher-friendly.

And running across that outfield the Padres envision a speedy center fielder, one likely to be acquired before baseball's meetings in early December.

General Manager Kevin Towers shed light on the Petco plan last night, saying chances are better than 50-50 the club will shorten right-center from 411 feet to as close as 395 feet this offseason. He cautioned that many details on financing and seating aesthetics need to be worked out.

"It'll still be a pitcher's park," Towers said. "It'll be more fair."

The move, part of a long-term strategy, isn't directed at wooing left-handed slugger Brian Giles, the team MVP who today can begin receiving bids from other clubs. But it can only appeal to Giles, whose home run totals plummeted after he was traded to the Padres.

YankeePride1967
11-12-05, 03:13 PM
Giles would replace Bernie, Sierra isnt going anywhere, he is only 40 yrs old.

Sierra is done, we need players that can contribute, not charitiy cases of a player that can't hit and can't field at all -- not even a little. He's done and will NOT be a Yankee in 2006. I'd rather bring Bernie back than Ruben.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:14 PM
Matsui avg hits and rbi's don't all come from HRs, they come from good hitting. How you say that a Stadium helps players get better numbers if thats the case all AL MVP would be Yankees then.
Matsui's home OPS - .952
Matsui's road OPS - .778

And yes, the stadium does have to do with hits and RBIs. Looking at his hitting chart at MLB.com, Giles lost about 8 HRs at Petco, that would have been HRs in Yankee Stadium.

Also:

Giles' home OPS - .795
Giles' road OPS - 1.008

The park plays a huge factor, as shown in Giles much better OPS+.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:17 PM
Matsui avg hits and rbi's don't all come from HRs, they come from good hitting. How you say that a Stadium helps players get better numbers if thats the case all AL MVP would be Yankees then.

Huh? Of course not all his hits and RBIs come from HRs. I'm saying that Giles lost about 8 HRs in Petco that would have been HRs in Yankee Stadium (EDIT: re-counting, it looks like he lost about 11).

You're also assuming that Yankee Stadium is a complete hitters park (which is not true, only for left-handed hitters, and right-handed hitters that hit the ball the opposite way). And you're acting as if there are no other hitters parks.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:17 PM
Did you really think they had a chance to pass St.Luis to move to the NLCS.
I don't understand, the Padres are behind all season long? They were not a very good team, but they won their division this year.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:20 PM
Did you really think they had a chance to pass St.Luis to move to the NLCS.

No, but you said they were behind all season, which is false.

SINCE77 2
11-12-05, 03:20 PM
You're not adjusting for the park factor. Matsui's home park is very favorable for him, Giles goes very much against him.

If you're not going to use park adjusted statistics, then there's no point in having a conversation.

Those numbers seem like they should give Matsui an advantage, but in OPS+ (which is adjusted to factor in the home park), Giles was a much better hitter last year. It's not just a coincidence.



Park factors imo only effect homerun production. Giles hit 9 on the road and 6 at home. Big deal. Parks don't effect singles or XBH. Matsui has hit homeruns in every part of YS, not just RF so he can hit them anywhere and in any park.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:24 PM
Park factors imo only effect homerun production. Giles hit 9 on the road and 6 at home. Big deal. Parks don't effect singles or XBH. Matsui has hit homeruns in every part of YS, not just RF so he can hit them anywhere and in any park.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?playerID=425686&statType=1

Matsui didn't hit a single HR to the left side, or even to dead CF. He also hit 15 HRs at home, compared to 8 HRs on the road.

Parks do effect XBH. Giles had 7-8 XBH in Petco last year that, where they landed, would've been HRs in Yankee Stadium.

Besides, if your opinion were correct, it would be reflected in the, you know, park factor statistics. Why, then, does Giles have a 148 OPS+, and Matsui has a 126 OPS+?

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:28 PM
Just to show again, if you don't believe in the park adjusted statistics, fine. But here are the regular, non-adjusted statistics, that show that Matsui took advantage of a good left-handed hitters park, and that Giles was negatively effected by a bad left-handed hitters park:


Matsui's home OPS - .952
Matsui's road OPS - .778

Giles' home OPS - .795
Giles' road OPS - 1.008

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:28 PM
Who in that Division had outstanding number. They were a below 500 team most of the season.




No, but you said they were behind all season, which is false.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:29 PM
Who in that Division had outstanding number. They were a below 500 team most of the season.

Ugh. I already said that they were not a good team. But you said they were BEHIND ALL SEASON LONG. However, they FINISHED IN FIRST PLACE.

Sierra Mist
11-12-05, 03:33 PM
we need players that can contribute, not charitiy cases of a player that can't hit and can't field at all -- not even a little. He's done and will NOT be a Yankee in 2006.

This could easily be Bernie when reading at a glance

Enter_Sandman_42
11-12-05, 03:35 PM
Giles produces more than Matsui in the much weaker National League, he did it in the American League a LONG time ago, but who's to say that Giles would adjust again to the American League or to playing in New York? I'd go with the sure bet which is Matsui who has proven he can get it done 3 straight years in New York, not to mention you factor in Matsui wants a 4 year deal nothing wrong with that at all he'll be 35 by the time his contract ends, and Giles has already turned down a 3 year deal for 26.5 million from San Diego, so he's going to demand a 3 year deal in the 11/12 million dollar range and he's not worth that at age 35 sorry

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:36 PM
Put them in any other division, now tell me if they would of been in first. The fact that they were in first says that no other team was any better in that division.
Ugh. I already said that they were not a good team. But you said they were BEHIND ALL SEASON LONG. However, they FINISHED IN FIRST PLACE.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:37 PM
Giles produces more than Matsui in the much weaker National League, he did it in the American League a LONG time ago, but who's to say that Giles would adjust again to the American League or to playing in New York? I'd go with the sure bet which is Matsui who has proven he can get it done 3 straight years in New York, not to mention you factor in Matsui wants a 4 year deal nothing wrong with that at all he'll be 35 by the time his contract ends, and Giles has already turned down a 3 year deal for 26.5 million from San Diego, so he's going to demand a 3 year deal in the 11/12 million dollar range and he's not worth that at age 35 sorry

If you want to give 4 years at 12.5M per to the safe bet of being a "good" hitter, then go ahead. Some would take a chance at giving a 3 year deal at around 11M per to the "very good" hitter.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:38 PM
Put them in any other division, now tell me if they would of been in first. The fact that they were in first says that no other team was any better in that division.

Obviously you could do that. But now you're just changing the fact into a hypothetical situation.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:39 PM
Thank you :clap:
Giles produces more than Matsui in the much weaker National League, he did it in the American League a LONG time ago, but who's to say that Giles would adjust again to the American League or to playing in New York? I'd go with the sure bet which is Matsui who has proven he can get it done 3 straight years in New York, not to mention you factor in Matsui wants a 4 year deal nothing wrong with that at all he'll be 35 by the time his contract ends, and Giles has already turned down a 3 year deal for 26.5 million from San Diego, so he's going to demand a 3 year deal in the 11/12 million dollar range and he's not worth that at age 35 sorry

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:42 PM
Ok here is a fact

Between Giles and Matsui, Matsui has the better numbers for the past 2 season no matter what Stadium they play at.


Obviously you could do that. But now you're just changing the fact into a hypothetical situation.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:44 PM
Ok here is a fact

Between Giles and Matsui, Matsui has the better numbers for the past 2 season no matter what Stadium they play at.

Actually, Giles OPS (not park adjusted) was higher than Matsui's this past season. So, even without using park adjusted numbers, Giles had a better season.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:49 PM
I'm sorry that it upsets some of you, but park-adjusted numbers are the only statistics you can use to make things fair. And these show that Giles was a much better hitter last year.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:52 PM
Some are played at home some are played away. Just because Giles has better number on the road than home won't change the fact that Matsui has had better numbers then him.
Yes, because Matsui has an advantage.

Enter_Sandman_42
11-12-05, 03:53 PM
If you want to give 4 years at 12.5M per to the safe bet of being a "good" hitter, then go ahead. Some would take a chance at giving a 3 year deal at around 11M per to the "very good" hitter.

so, people are saying that the Yankees need to get wiser with their decisions, but they are willing to give Giles a 3 year deal (11/12 per year) will be 38 when his contract is up because he's a "risk" over Matsui 4 year deal (12.5 per year) will be 35 when his contract is up who's a "sure fire hit" since he's been consisent for his whole contract here? that makes no sense whatsoever to me, I'd go with the sure bet than the risk, but thats just me.

Enter_Sandman_42
11-12-05, 03:54 PM
I'm sorry that it upsets some of you, but park-adjusted numbers are the only statistics you can use to make things fair. And these show that Giles was a much better hitter last year.

one also plays in the superior American League, and one plays in the inferior National League.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:56 PM
Some are played at home some are played away. Just because Giles has better number on the road than home won't change the fact that Matsui has had better numbers then him.

Yes, it does. Matsui's statistics at home (hitter friendly for him) are dramatically better than his numbers on the road. Giles statistics at home (extremely hurts him) are dramatically worse than his numbers on the road.

Matsui had 15 HRs, 68 RBIs in a very hitter friendly park for him. He then had 8 HRs and 48 RBIs on the road.

Giles' OPS+ = 148
Matsui's OPS+ = 125

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:56 PM
And I sorry that for some of you is hard to understand that wether the park is big or small won't change the fact on books, paper and anybodys eye Matsui has been the better hitter

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:57 PM
one also plays in the superior American League, and one plays in the inferior National League.

Yep, one plays in the American League, where the pitching is not as good. And the other plays in the National League, where the pitching is superior.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 03:58 PM
And I sorry that for some of you is hard to understand that wether the park is big or small won't change the fact on books, paper and anybodys eye Matsui has been the better hitter

But it does.

Giles' OPS+ = 148
Matsui's OPS+ = 125

Giles is the superior hitter.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 03:58 PM
:clap: thank you for that great point of view.
one also plays in the superior American League, and one plays in the inferior National League.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 04:00 PM
In a inferior league.
But it does.

Giles' OPS+ = 148
Matsui's OPS+ = 125

Giles is the superior hitter.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 04:00 PM
In a inferior league.

The inferior league with the superior pitching?

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 04:05 PM
And just so you know most of the superior pitching has come to the yankees from the inferior league have not been that superior.You should just say that from 1998-2000 the Yankees had an advantage. NO say all 26 WS titles have been advantages
The inferior league with the superior pitching?

AMYanks
11-12-05, 04:06 PM
You should just say that from 1998-2000 the Yankees had an advantage. NO say all 26 WS titles have been advantages

What? :lol:

NewEraYanks2527
11-12-05, 04:09 PM
The inferior league with the superior pitching?
I really can not agree with you that the National League has superiour pitching, the NL has much weaker lineups and no DH which largely contributes to the lower ERAs and higher K rates. I dont think the NL is inferior but really the NL lineups are nowhere near the production machines that most AL lineups are.

SINCE77 2
11-12-05, 04:09 PM
The inferior league with the superior pitching?


Which team in the NL West(where the majority of the games are played) has superior pitching. Giants? Don't think so. D'Backs. Sorry, not there. Rockies? C'mon. Dodgers? Maybe a few years back, but not lately. The NL West was composed of crappy sub .500 teams with lousy pitching. This is what Giles beat up on the majority of the time.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 04:13 PM
Which team in the NL West(where the majority of the games are played) has superior pitching. Giants? Don't think so. D'Backs. Sorry, not there. Rockies? C'mon. Dodgers? Maybe a few years back, but not lately. The NL West was composed of crappy sub .500 teams with lousy pitching. This is what Giles beat up on the majority of the time.

The team ERA in the NL West was better than the team ERA in the AL East.

But, because of the different rules in each league, we can't fairly compare the two.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 04:13 PM
You said that Matsui had an advantage hitting in Yankee Stadium right. So what do you think that means.:-rtfm-: read what you said.
What? :lol:

AMYanks
11-12-05, 04:15 PM
You said that Matsui had an advantage hitting in Yankee Stadium right. So what do you think that means.:-rtfm-: read what you said.

What does Matsui hitting in Yankee Stadium have to do with the Yankees WS championships in 1998-2000?

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 04:17 PM
:-poke-: looks like he got you there. Giles has had the advantage with tha weak pitching he gets.
Which team in the NL West(where the majority of the games are played) has superior pitching. Giants? Don't think so. D'Backs. Sorry, not there. Rockies? C'mon. Dodgers? Maybe a few years back, but not lately. The NL West was composed of crappy sub .500 teams with lousy pitching. This is what Giles beat up on the majority of the time.

DaddyYankee279
11-12-05, 04:21 PM
Your saying that thats why his numbers are better. And Giles are not because of the Stadiums. Because if Matsui hitting at Yankee Stadium is advantage then the Yanks 1998-2000 WS Championships are to.
What does Matsui hitting in Yankee Stadium have to do with the Yankees WS championships in 1998-2000?

AMYanks
11-12-05, 04:23 PM
Your saying that thats why his numbers are better. And Giles are not because of the Stadiums. Because if Matsui hitting at Yankee Stadium is advantage then the Yanks 1998-2000 WS Championships are to.

I still have no idea what you're trying to prove. So I'll just move on.

SINCE77 2
11-12-05, 04:25 PM
The team ERA in the NL West was better than the team ERA in the AL East.

But, because of the different rules in each league, we can't fairly compare the two.


I going to put this to rest because I'm coming across as a non-fan of Giles which simply isn't true. I have no problem with Giles replacing Sheff in the lineup as he is younger and might bring similar production. What I do have a problem with is the Yankees blowing an opportunity to really shore up the CF defense by once again putting offense above defense. I am happy with Arod, Sheff, Giambi, and Matsui (?) providing middle of the order thump. Giles bat, in addition to the aforementioned players would only make us marginally better offensively and provide little upgrade defensively. Only one bat in the majors would add a significant upgrade to this lineup and that Bonds. If we can't put that kind of bat in the lineup, than we might as well go for a guy that catches everything.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 04:29 PM
I going to put this to rest because I'm coming across as a non-fan of Giles which simply isn't true. I have no problem with Giles replacing Sheff in the lineup as he is younger and might bring similar production. What I do have a problem with is the Yankees blowing an opportunity to really shore up the CF defense by once again putting offense above defense. I am happy with Arod, Sheff, Giambi, and Matsui (?) providing middle of the order thump. Giles bat, in addition to the aforementioned players would only make us marginally better offensively and provide little upgrade defensively. Only one bat in the majors would add a significant upgrade to this lineup and that Bonds. If we can't put that kind of bat in the lineup, than we might as well go for a guy that catches everything.

If you're adding Giles to that, then it makes us significantly better offensively, because he'd be replacing Bernie and Crosby. However, if you're taking out Sheffield, and adding Giles, then I agree.

To be honest, I would prefer that scenario, as well. It also sounds like I'm anti-Matsui, which isn't the case. I have no problem with Matsui coming back, but I wish it would not be for 4 years.

SINCE77 2
11-12-05, 04:45 PM
If you're adding Giles to that, then it makes us significantly better offensively, because he'd be replacing Bernie and Crosby. However, if you're taking out Sheffield, and adding Giles, then I agree.

To be honest, I would prefer that scenario, as well. It also sounds like I'm anti-Matsui, which isn't the case. I have no problem with Matsui coming back, but I wish it would not be for 4 years.


I wanted Matsui for 3 years as well, then to replace him from within if possible. I would swap Sheff for Giles and use Sheff to net a CF if it were up to me.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 04:50 PM
I wanted Matsui for 3 years as well, then to replace him from within if possible. I would swap Sheff for Giles and use Sheff to net a CF if it were up to me.

I would probably try to do the same thing.

Enter_Sandman_42
11-12-05, 06:21 PM
"It's rather simple: [Matsui] is either going to be with us, or he won't," GM Brian Cashman told the newspaper. "And there are other choices in the event we don't have him."

Cashman is also talking with free-agent outfielder Brian Giles.

AMYanks
11-12-05, 06:23 PM
"It's rather simple: [Matsui] is either going to be with us, or he won't," GM Brian Cashman told the newspaper. "And there are other choices in the event we don't have him."

Cashman is also talking with free-agent outfielder Brian Giles.

Considering it's the Yankees making the 4 yr. $50M offer, I doubt Matsui leaves.

But the second Matsui declines that offer (hypothetically), you know Cashman will heat up the negotiations with Giles and his agent.

YankeePride1967
11-12-05, 06:44 PM
This could easily be Bernie when reading at a glance

At least Bernie contributed some when on the field. Sierra did nothing even in the times he was able to play.