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Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-17-05, 12:24 PM
Am I missing something?

I actually thought the same thing. The fact is that when Giles was on Cleveland in the late 90s, during their powerhouse offensive years, Giles was little more than a raw, talented platoon player, who honestly as I recall did very little against the Yankees. He didn't blossom as a power hitter until he went to Pittsburgh in that horrific trade that Cleveland pulled off for him. So if Torre is remembering Giles from his Cleveland days, he wasn't much to shout about back then.

yanksphan
11-17-05, 12:27 PM
1.Jeter ss
2.Giles rf
3.Rodriguez 3b
4.Giambi 1b
5.Sheffield dh
6.Matsui lf
7.Bradley cf
8.Posada c
9.Cano 2b

:drool:

That's hot.

Jasbro
11-17-05, 12:29 PM
I actually thought the same thing. The fact is that when Giles was on Cleveland in the late 90s, during their powerhouse offensive years, Giles was little more than a raw, talented platoon player, who honestly as I recall did very little against the Yankees. He didn't blossom as a power hitter until he went to Pittsburgh in that horrific trade that Cleveland pulled off for him. So if Torre is remembering Giles from his Cleveland days, he wasn't much to shout about back then.


"The little I saw of Giles was when he was with Cleveland," Torre said, going back to the late 1990s. "He was an extra player there and looked like a guy who could do some things. I'm talking about added dimension to your ballclub, the fact that he can run, the fact that he's one of those hard-nosed type players."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2226661

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Torre said about Giles.

Next issue.

mbn007
11-17-05, 12:32 PM
That's hot.
It certainly will be when Bradley implodes, which, based on his history, combined with the intense NY Media, should happen around May 15th.

Jasbro
11-17-05, 12:36 PM
Torre clearly endorsed the signing of Giles, a player he remembered for his speed and versatility from Giles's time with the Cleveland Indians in the late 1990's

Actually I found this line kind of disturbing.


Am I missing something?


You mean besides the fact that 1990 was fifteen years ago???


The quote does not say 1990. It says late 90's.

Giles was last with the Indians in 1997. He has been in the NL since then. So the last time Torre saw Giles play against him was in 1997.

What is the issue?


I actually thought the same thing. The fact is that when Giles was on Cleveland in the late 90s, during their powerhouse offensive years, Giles was little more than a raw, talented platoon player, who honestly as I recall did very little against the Yankees. He didn't blossom as a power hitter until he went to Pittsburgh in that horrific trade that Cleveland pulled off for him. So if Torre is remembering Giles from his Cleveland days, he wasn't much to shout about back then.


"The little I saw of Giles was when he was with Cleveland," Torre said, going back to the late 1990s. "He was an extra player there and looked like a guy who could do some things. I'm talking about added dimension to your ballclub, the fact that he can run, the fact that he's one of those hard-nosed type players."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2226661

Valiant, but vain, effort to attempt to make Torre look bad...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Torre said about Giles.

Next issue.

Jasbro
11-17-05, 12:37 PM
Torre clearly endorsed the signing of Giles, a player he remembered for his speed and versatility from Giles's time with the Cleveland Indians in the late 1990's

Actually I found this line kind of disturbing.


Am I missing something?


You mean besides the fact that 1990 was fifteen years ago???


I actually thought the same thing. The fact is that when Giles was on Cleveland in the late 90s, during their powerhouse offensive years, Giles was little more than a raw, talented platoon player, who honestly as I recall did very little against the Yankees. He didn't blossom as a power hitter until he went to Pittsburgh in that horrific trade that Cleveland pulled off for him. So if Torre is remembering Giles from his Cleveland days, he wasn't much to shout about back then.


"The little I saw of Giles was when he was with Cleveland," Torre said, going back to the late 1990s. "He was an extra player there and looked like a guy who could do some things. I'm talking about added dimension to your ballclub, the fact that he can run, the fact that he's one of those hard-nosed type players."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2226661

Valiant, but vain, effort to attempt to make Torre look bad...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Torre said about Giles.

Next issue.

yanksphan
11-17-05, 12:44 PM
It certainly will be when Bradley implodes, which, based on his history, combined with the intense NY Media, should happen around May 15th.

yawn.

I'm sure Bradley will be the media's focal point of the 06 Yankees.

If he comes here and puts up a .750 - .800 OPS and catches the ball in CF, something he's more than capable of, he'll see no scrutiny from the media.

mbn007
11-17-05, 12:46 PM
yawn.

I'm sure Bradley will be the media's focal point of the 06 Yankees.

If he comes here and puts up a .750 - .800 OPS and catches the ball in CF, something he's more than capable of, he'll see no scrutiny from the media.
His performance on the field has not been the source of his issues in the past.

SINCE77 2
11-17-05, 12:49 PM
By "traditional" do you mean a guy who can actually play CF?



People seem to be forgetting the lessons of last season's OF clusterf***. Adding Giles does nothing to improve the Yankees atrocious (worst in the league?) OF defense. You can't hide an entire OF that's bad. It kills your pitching staff to have the lack of range in the OF that the Yankees have. If Crosby could "pick it" in CF he would have done so last season.

Some people have stars in their eyes about adding Giles' bat to an already productive lineup - but does he make the team better? When you look at the Yankees as currently constructed (with Matsui in the fold) is your first thought "hey, this team really needs a productive corner OFer"? It's not mine.


Good to see that others understand that Giles brings nothing that we don't already have and offers very little to solve what really plagues the Yankees. We will continue to have poor defense in the OF and if it turns out that Petco isn't the cause of Giles decline in power we will be stuck and have to trade for a viable CF anyway. Its odd that so much fuss was made about Hunter getting surgery last season, but nothing has been spoken about Giles having knee surgery in 2003 and his power declining since said surgery.

Sam18
11-17-05, 12:50 PM
yawn.

I'm sure Bradley will be the media's focal point of the 06 Yankees.

If he comes here and puts up a .750 - .800 OPS and catches the ball in CF, something he's more than capable of, he'll see no scrutiny from the media.

If Bradley performs then he'll have no problems with the fans but the media(especially the a**holes in NY) tend to make up stories. They're like the trolls of the real world.

yanksphan
11-17-05, 12:52 PM
His performance on the field has not been the source of his issues in the past.

I could care less what he does OFF the field. As long as he makes it to work everyday, and does his job - I'm happy.

Jace
11-17-05, 12:53 PM
yawn.

I'm sure Bradley will be the media's focal point of the 06 Yankees.

If he comes here and puts up a .750 - .800 OPS and catches the ball in CF, something he's more than capable of, he'll see no scrutiny from the media.

The guy gets in trouble for beating his wife 3 times a year ("domestic violence" to be exact, maybe he is getting beaten by his wife. In any case the media will peg him as a wife beater pretty quick). I think there will be scrutiny. How do you think Joe Torre would react to this? He'd probably stop playing him or something.

Maybe Torre could calm him down or something, but I really don't know if its worth having him and Sheffield in the same house.

Kulish29
11-17-05, 12:53 PM
That's hot.

And also very do-able. Get it done Cash!

mbn007
11-17-05, 12:54 PM
I could care less what he does OFF the field. As long as he makes it to work everyday, and does his job - I'm happy.


The NY media will not allow him to get off that easy. He is a time bomb, and time bombs and NY do not mix.

yanksphan
11-17-05, 12:55 PM
The guy gets in trouble for beating his wife 3 times a year ("domestic violence" to be exact, maybe he is getting beaten by his wife. In any case the media will peg him as a wife beater pretty quick). I think there will be scrutiny. How do you think Joe Torre would react to this? He'd probably stop playing him or something.

Maybe Torre could calm him down or something, but I really don't know if its worth having him and Sheffield in the same house.

If he gets into trouble off the field - Torre should do what any good manager would do - close the lockeroom to the media for a couple days. Torre knows Bradley is sensitive when scrutinized, so he should do what's necessary to keep him away from all of that.

Jace
11-17-05, 12:58 PM
If he gets into trouble off the field - Torre should do what any good manager would do - close the lockeroom to the media for a couple days. Torre knows Bradley is sensitive when scrutinized, so he should do what's necessary to keep him away from all of that.

But this off the field trouble is to the point where it is impossible to like him as a person anymore. People whine about players not being true Yankees just because they were paid more to play here, and I think that is complete bull, but that doesn't mean I would want Ty Cobb on my team. How can you root for the guy if you know he should be in jail or something?

Edit: Maybe he is just misunderstood or something, which really is possible, and Torre could keep him in line and make him happy. Then he would be great. But unless someone close to him could confirm this, I think he has a great chance to be an absolute disaster.

Jasbro
11-17-05, 01:03 PM
The guy gets in trouble for beating his wife 3 times a year ("domestic violence" to be exact, maybe he is getting beaten by his wife. In any case the media will peg him as a wife beater pretty quick). I think there will be scrutiny. How do you think Joe Torre would react to this? He'd probably stop playing him or something.

Maybe Torre could calm him down or something, but I really don't know if its worth having him and Sheffield in the same house.

Given that Torre runs a foundation dedicated to helping children who are the victims of domestic violence, I would think: 1) he would first need to be assured that Bradley is getting the help he needs, and 2) he would be especially well-suited to manage a player with Bradley's issues if Milton has indeed committed to change.

yanksphan
11-17-05, 02:10 PM
Edit: Maybe he is just misunderstood or something, which really is possible, and Torre could keep him in line and make him happy. Then he would be great. But unless someone close to him could confirm this, I think he has a great chance to be an absolute disaster.

I can't confirm it as I've never met the guy - but I have heard him on the radio over the summer here in SoCal. He's actually very well spoken, eloquent, and you can tell there's a "just wants to win" attitude in him. VERY similar to Jeter (says all the right things).

I don't know if he's misunderstood - it's hard to use that as an acceptable excuse for the things he's done. I just think he's really intense, and sometimes it backfires on him. Maybe being in a winning environment will help him to harness that intensity and put it to good use. I'd be willing to take that risk.

Maynerd
11-17-05, 02:27 PM
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing you've always done and expecting a different outcome.

Bradley gets hurt. Annually. He also is a psycho. Consistently. Anybody who thinks he's any sort of solution is clearly (by the definition above) insane.

Giles? Fine. The Furcal Experiment? Sure. Bubba? I'm willing to give it a shot. Bradley? No, thanks. Keep him out of pinstripes.

yanksphan
11-17-05, 02:32 PM
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing you've always done and expecting a different outcome.

Bradley gets hurt. Annually. He also is a psycho. Consistently. Anybody who thinks he's any sort of solution is clearly (by the definition above) insane.

Giles? Fine. The Furcal Experiment? Sure. Bubba? I'm willing to give it a shot. Bradley? No, thanks. Keep him out of pinstripes.

Certainly - but the key word is "same".

The Yankee Clubhouse is a much different environment than what he's been in before. Therefore - not insanity by the definition you've given.

Enter_Sandman_42
11-17-05, 02:49 PM
well it seems like the Yankees are really interested in Giles, despite already having resigned Matsui, when Torre gives someone a recruiting call you know they are seroius.

StatenIslandYankee
11-17-05, 03:08 PM
So if Giles comes, Sheffield is gone?

I Love Wang
11-17-05, 03:09 PM
So if Giles comes, Sheffield is gone?

No. Why would you think that?

StatenIslandYankee
11-17-05, 03:10 PM
No. Why would you think that?
We need a CF, unless Sheffield is our DH

ICEBERG18
11-17-05, 03:10 PM
So if Giles comes, Sheffield is gone?

That's what some people think. Cashman hasn't said that, nor would he say that.

grabick_luca
11-17-05, 03:30 PM
I would pass too, he's going to want at least 3 year / 10 mil. A trade for a rowand type player would be great if possible. If not try jones of bradley

Sam18
11-17-05, 04:52 PM
Sign Giles and keep Sheff.

noneckwilliams
11-17-05, 05:09 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2226661

Valiant, but vain, effort to attempt to make Torre look bad...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Torre said about Giles.

Next issue.

I wasn't trying to rag Torre but are his observations of Giles 7 or 8 years ago that relevant? It's more a knock on the story than anything. There was also some crap in the article about Damon and how landing him would allow Jeter to move to the 2 hole - insinuating that Jeter was a much better hitter when he batted #2. Jeter's put together 2 excellent seasons leading off and I'd take him leading off over Damon.

Sam18
11-17-05, 05:15 PM
I wasn't trying to rag Torre but are his observations of Giles 7 or 8 years ago that relevant? It's more a knock on the story than anything. There was also some crap in the article about Damon and how landing him would allow Jeter to move to the 2 hole - insinuating that Jeter was a much better hitter when he batted #2. Jeter's put together 2 excellent seasons leading off and I'd take him leading off over Damon.

Not to mention Jeter hits better when hitting first.

rightfielder21
11-17-05, 05:24 PM
Sign Giles and keep Sheff.

Exactly...

Maynerd
11-17-05, 05:33 PM
Certainly - but the key word is "same".

The Yankee Clubhouse is a much different environment than what he's been in before. Therefore - not insanity by the definition you've given.

Randy Johnson didn't even make it to the clubhouse before he had a run in with the NY media. And he's not half the psycho Bradley is. I don't care what kind of feng shui they got goin' on in the clubhouse, he's much too volatile to deal with NY fans or NY media.

Pass.

Kulish29
11-17-05, 05:39 PM
I love how people are calling Bradley a psycho like the guy bites the heads off of live chickens or something to that effect.

Bottom line: Bradley is a low risk, high reward. If he doesnt work out, he doesnt work out. They go out and find another guy or put Bubba out there. But if he does work out, it will be LOADS better then what the Yankees have right now.

JfromJersey
11-17-05, 05:45 PM
So if Giles comes, Sheffield is gone?

Sheff is staying. I'm 99% sure.
We can live with Matsui/Giles/Sheff, or Matsui/Bubba/Giles w. Sheff as DH.

StatenIslandYankee
11-17-05, 06:04 PM
Sign Giles and keep Sheff.
I would rather do that.

YankeePride1967
11-17-05, 06:23 PM
I would rather do that.

That's the most realistic outcome if we sign Giles.

Sam18
11-17-05, 06:38 PM
Signing Giles would also give us leverage in looking for a CF.

vin777b
11-17-05, 07:48 PM
I love how people are calling Bradley a psycho like the guy bites the heads off of live chickens or something to that effect.

Bottom line: Bradley is a low risk, high reward. If he doesnt work out, he doesnt work out. They go out and find another guy or put Bubba out there. But if he does work out, it will be LOADS better then what the Yankees have right now.


exactly. And if Giles were to be signed, all the more reason to sign Bradley. Giles would be insurance.

Yankees1962
11-17-05, 09:48 PM
Did Cashman get the go ahead from Steinbrenner and Swindal to go after Giles.

Yankees general manager Brian Cashman flew to Florida on Thursday to discuss the team's next series of potential offseason moves with owner George Steinbrenner and other team officials.

The trip came one day after the Yankees held a news conference to announce the re-signing of outfielder Hideki Matsui to a $52 million, four-year contract.

Among the officials attending the meeting at Legends Field were general partner Steve Swindal, assistant general manager Jean Afterman, vice president Mark Newman, Gene Michael, Billy Connors, Damon Oppenheimer, Bill Emslie and scout Jim Benedict.

"My plan was to come down and brief the troops," Cashman said.

The officals were together one hour before Steinbrenner joined for almost two additional hours. Another session with Steinbrenner, Swindal, Cashman and Afterman followed.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1118,0,4645311.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

Dooley Womack
11-17-05, 09:58 PM
By "traditional" do you mean a guy who can actually play CF?



People seem to be forgetting the lessons of last season's OF clusterf***. Adding Giles does nothing to improve the Yankees atrocious (worst in the league?) OF defense. You can't hide an entire OF that's bad. It kills your pitching staff to have the lack of range in the OF that the Yankees have. If Crosby could "pick it" in CF he would have done so last season.

Some people have stars in their eyes about adding Giles' bat to an already productive lineup - but does he make the team better? When you look at the Yankees as currently constructed (with Matsui in the fold) is your first thought "hey, this team really needs a productive corner OFer"? It's not mine.

The corner or nothing for me, which means he and Sheff split DH duties and RF. I don't want an aging player who is far from a speedster roaming CF. He might get a better jump on balls off the bat than Bernie, but Bernie had better speed. Do we want more of the same nightmarish OF play in 2006?

Dooley Womack
11-17-05, 10:00 PM
I hope this meeting addressed the need for a set-up man and potential closer (RYAN) because that is the bigger priority than Giles.

Archer1979
11-17-05, 10:02 PM
I hope this meeting addressed the need for a set-up man and potential closer (RYAN) because that is the bigger priority than Giles.

Bingo. That and a starter. The NY lineup can afford to have a sub-par hitter in center (so long as he's a decent fielder). One starter and a revamped bullpen should be the higher priorities.

Dooley Womack
11-17-05, 10:03 PM
This simply isn't true. Putting Giles in LF and movint Matsui to CF gives us a significantly better defensive alignment than we had last year. Matsui played CF for a decade in Japan, and looked more comfortable out there in 2003 when he played a significant amount of CF. Furthermore, the offensive advantage that Giles gives us will much more than make up for any runs this defense costs us.

If you consider a centerfielder with no range and who lumbers after every ball hit to him a good centerfielder, then Matsui is your man.

Dooley Womack
11-17-05, 10:06 PM
Bingo. That and a starter. The NY lineup can afford to have a sub-par hitter in center (so long as he's a decent fielder). One starter and a revamped bullpen should be the higher priorities.

I think some people have short memories and forget how poor outfield play, especially in center, has often hurt the Yanks the past couple of years. A REAL CF, with good range and speed makes Matsui (who is adequate in LF) and Sheff, that much better.

YankeePride1967
11-17-05, 10:07 PM
Verducci said on Hot Stove is the Yanks could sign Giles and do a make-shift combo of him and Matsui in center and then assuming Sheffield leaves after 2006, the Yanks would then target Andrew Jones and move Giles to right.

But while I think Giles would be a great signing (great OBP which we need at the top of our lineup), I find it very hard to believe that a man that had the Yanks as one of his few teams on his no-trade list now all of a sudden wants to be a Yankee.

Dooley Womack
11-17-05, 10:09 PM
Verducci said on Hot Stove is the Yanks could sign Giles and do a make-shift combo of him and Matsui in center and then assuming Sheffield leaves after 2006, the Yanks would then target Andrew Jones and move Giles to right.

But while I think Giles would be a great signing (great OBP which we need at the top of our lineup), I find it very hard to believe that a man that had the Yanks as one of his few teams on his no-trade list now all of a sudden wants to be a Yankee.

As well as the Mets (no-trade clause). Seems like NY wasn't the place for him in the past. Why they new-found love for it when he becomes a FA?

Yankees1962
11-17-05, 10:12 PM
Verducci said on Hot Stove is the Yanks could sign Giles and do a make-shift combo of him and Matsui in center and then assuming Sheffield leaves after 2006, the Yanks would then target Andrew Jones and move Giles to right.

But while I think Giles would be a great signing (great OBP which we need at the top of our lineup), I find it very hard to believe that a man that had the Yanks as one of his few teams on his no-trade list now all of a sudden wants to be a Yankee.
There will be some CF's available after the 2006 season, but Jones isn't one of them, unless, Atlanta decides to trade him.

YankeePride1967
11-17-05, 10:13 PM
As well as the Mets (no-trade clause). Seems like NY wasn't the place for him in the past. Why they new-found love for it when he becomes a FA?

and I'm sure you know the answer as you are alluding to it, but any free agent that discounts the Yanks as a team that he PUBLICALLY says he will sign with, the less of a deal he will likely get from someone else. Look at players like Mark Langston and Jack Morris in the past. I think Giles is the same way. I think Maddux and Bonds did the same thing in the 90's.

YankeePride1967
11-17-05, 10:14 PM
There will be some CF's available after the 2006 season, but Jones isn't one of them, unless, Atlanta decides to trade him.

Either Verducci was wrong about him being a FA or he thinks he will be traded.

Dooley Womack
11-17-05, 10:17 PM
and I'm sure you know the answer as you are alluding to it, but any free agent that discounts the Yanks as a team that he PUBLICALLY says he will sign with, the less of a deal he will likely get from someone else. Look at players like Mark Langston and Jack Morris in the past. I think Giles is the same way. I think Maddux and Bonds did the same thing in the 90's.

Everytime I hear the names Bonds and Maddux I see red. Bonds had verbally agreed to play for the Yanks, because there were no other suitors. At the eleventh hour, the Giants came into the picture and his love for playing in pinstripes disappeared.

If you remember, Stick was shocked after Maddux signed with the Braves and publicly said he thought he had him. He also had verbally agreed to play for the Yanks during a Broadway play and dinner he had attended with Stick. That's until Atlanta came into the picture right after.

YankeePride1967
11-17-05, 10:27 PM
Everytime I hear the names Bonds and Maddux I see red. Bonds had verbally agreed to play for the Yanks, because there were no other suitors. At the eleventh hour, the Giants came into the picture and his love for playing in pinstripes disappeared.

If you remember, Stick was shocked after Maddux signed with the Braves and publicly said he thought he had him. He also had verbally agreed to play for the Yanks during a Broadway play and dinner he had attended with Stick. That's until Atlanta came into the picture right after.

I remember that off-season very well. I just don't think Brian Giles has ANY interest in being a Yankee in reality.

Yankees1962
11-17-05, 11:18 PM
I'm listening to XM radio's Home Plate channel and they have a San Diego writer on who actally said that Giles prefers to play CF to RF. He thinks he can play CF just fine in Yankee Stadium. Also, that Giles really wants to win a WS ring. Nothing more than hearsay from one writer that knows Giles.

ring403
11-17-05, 11:25 PM
I'm listening to XM radio's Home Plate channel and they have a San Diego writer on who actally said that Giles prefers to play CF to RF. He thinks he can play CF just fine in Yankee Stadium. Also, that Giles really wants to win a WS ring. Nothing more than hearsay from one writer that knows Giles.
True, it's hearsay, but if it's a Padres beat writer who has spoken to Giles, he would have little reason to fabricate a story.

27IsNext
11-18-05, 12:13 AM
I remember that off-season very well. I just don't think Brian Giles has ANY interest in being a Yankee in reality.

He doesn't. He's using the Yankees to drive up his price. We'd better have a plan B here.

NewEraYanks2527
11-18-05, 12:15 AM
He doesn't. He's using the Yankees to drive up his price. We'd better have a plan B here. And you know this because...

StatenIslandYankee
11-18-05, 12:55 AM
He doesn't. He's using the Yankees to drive up his price. We'd better have a plan B here.
I have that feeling as well ... :(

StatenIslandYankee
11-18-05, 01:02 AM
Is this feasible lineup?

1 Jeter SS
2 Giles RF
3 Rodriguez 3B
4 Sheffield DH
5 Matsui LF
6 Giambi 1B
7 Cano 2B
8 Bradley CF
9 Posada C

Rich
11-18-05, 01:04 AM
Is this feasible lineup?

1 Jeter SS
2 Giles RF
3 Rodriguez 3B
4 Sheffield DH
5 Matsui LF
6 Giambi 1B
7 Cano 2B
8 Bradley CF
9 Posada C

Giambi may be the best hitter on the team. Why would you bat him 6th?

StatenIslandYankee
11-18-05, 01:07 AM
Giambi may be the best hitter on the team. Why would you bat him 6th?Maybe Matsui will get some better pitches to hit, since his power numbers were down. But either way you shake it, is that lineup realistic?

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-18-05, 01:09 AM
Also Cano should bat further down, Bradley is a better hitter and runner...

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-18-05, 01:10 AM
Maybe Matsui will get some better pitches to hit, since his power numbers were down. But either way you shake it, is that lineup realistic?

Matsui has had enough protection, if he can't hit in last years lineup, he won't hit better anywhere else...

StatenIslandYankee
11-18-05, 01:12 AM
How about we just jam all of our OBP guys behind Jeter?

Jeter
Giles
Giambi
Arod
Sheffield
Matsui

and take your pick from there

27IsNext
11-18-05, 01:58 AM
And you know this because...

Let's see, because his latest contract had a NTC to NY in it, that he can go to a team like St. Louis and have just as big a chance to win a World Series, that up until free agency hit, he's always preferred the West Coast? All of a sudden, when he's a free agent, he's had a complete change of heart and wants to play in NY, on the East Coast?

Or maybe he's just doing what B.J. Ryan is doing, and is using the Yankees to drive up his price. He isn't coming. Try hard Brian, but make sure you have a plan B.

Dooley Womack
11-18-05, 02:21 AM
Let's see, because his latest contract had a NTC to NY in it, that he can go to a team like St. Louis and have just as big a chance to win a World Series, that up until free agency hit, he's always preferred the West Coast? All of a sudden, when he's a free agent, he's had a complete change of heart and wants to play in NY, on the East Coast?

Or maybe he's just doing what B.J. Ryan is doing, and is using the Yankees to drive up his price. He isn't coming. Try hard Brian, but make sure you have a plan B.

I tend to agree. The Matsui re-signing isn't looking so bad. It's always nice to have players whose hearts are into wearing pinstripes.

JeffWeaverFan
11-18-05, 02:52 AM
I'm listening to XM radio's Home Plate channel and they have a San Diego writer on who actally said that Giles prefers to play CF to RF. He thinks he can play CF just fine in Yankee Stadium. Also, that Giles really wants to win a WS ring. Nothing more than hearsay from one writer that knows Giles.
If this is all true, that leads me to believe that the Cardinals and the Yankees would be high up on his list. He may prefer the city of St. Louis better than New York (I'm assuming that as he did have the Yankees on his limited no-trade clause), but we give him the opportunity to play CF instead of RF. Maybe it'll just come down to money but as long as it takes a 3 year deal to get him, and he would play here, we've got to get this done.

JeffWeaverFan
11-18-05, 02:53 AM
How about we just jam all of our OBP guys behind Jeter?

Jeter
Giles
Giambi
Arod
Sheffield
Matsui

and take your pick from there
I would switch A-Rod and Giambi for the lefty-righty-lefty thing but it's no big deal either way.

RhodyYanksFan
11-18-05, 07:29 AM
I hate to admit it but I totally agree with Mike Lupica. There I said it. His story today is spot on.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/366938p-312252c.html



Only around here does that make perfect sense. Giles is getting up there in years, he's already had the best years he's going to have in the big leagues, and he's expensive. Historically, that has made guys like him irresistible to the Yankees.

noneckwilliams
11-18-05, 07:58 AM
I hate to admit it but I totally agree with Mike Lupica. There I said it. His story today is spot on.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/366938p-312252c.html

It's hard to agree with Loopy-Cur but this part of his column sums up my thoughts about acquiring Giles (except that part about Jeter batting 2nd).


The Yankees need to get younger, they need to get faster, they need to move Derek Jeter back to No. 2 in the batting order. And they need a pure center fielder who can go get it. Giles is a solid player, an All-Star player once, a splashy hire for the Padres when they got him in 2003. But if you think he covers any of those Yankee needs, send up a flare.

ieddyi
11-18-05, 07:59 AM
I hate to admit it but I totally agree with Mike Lupica. There I said it. His story today is spot on.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/366938p-312252c.html


Giles is 35, Manny is 33. YOU could amke the same point about both being on the decline. But, do you think that Little Mikey would do that if hte MEts chase after Manny and throw prospects away to get him and his ridiculous contract?
Giles is not the end all for CF. IF we get him, I still see us as picking up a very good defensive CF. IF noot, we have Bubba to play that role w/ Giles, Sheff, Matsui,Posada nad Giambi cycling throug DH.

We shed some bad contracts and have minumum wagers at 2B and i SP slot. We have not repeated mistakes of the past and traded away young talent. The organizational structure has been organized.
It's just more of Little Mikeys knee jerk hatred on any move the Yanks make

JDPNYY
11-18-05, 08:00 AM
It's hard to agree with Loopy-Cur but this part of his column sums up my thoughts about acquiring Giles (except that part about Jeter batting 2nd).


The Yankees need to get younger, they need to get faster, they need to move Derek Jeter back to No. 2 in the batting order. And they need a pure center fielder who can go get it. Giles is a solid player, an All-Star player once, a splashy hire for the Padres when they got him in 2003. But if you think he covers any of those Yankee needs, send up a flare.

It appears that Lupica is as clueless as ever.

bardos
11-18-05, 08:02 AM
The stat called "Runs Created" (Bill James' basic model for offensive production) is parlayed into "Runs Created per 27 outs" in which you take this first figure of runs created and divide it by the number of outs the player made (AB-H, sometimes adding CS or GIDP depending on the available data), and multiplying by 27 outs. The number you get is a rough estimate of how many runs a team made up of 9 clones of the player would score per game.

Although Mike Lupica may think this a one-dimensional stat, it is really not debateable that a line-up of 9 Brian Giles clones would score a ton of runs.

That's offense.

The debate about Mr. Giles may boil down to his defensive capabilities of which I have no idea as I have never seen him play.

MTYankee23
11-18-05, 08:08 AM
I hate to admit it but I totally agree with Mike Lupica. There I said it. His story today is spot on.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/366938p-312252c.html

I Actually think he couldn't have been further off. Comitting 3 years to a guy like Giles, whose peripheral offensive numbers over the past few years have actually been quite good, isn't throwing money at problems. What we're dealing with this year is a weak FA class, and we don't have a lot of chips to trade. Lupica is assuming that Brian Giles will be the CF for the entirety of the contract, when in all fairness, he'll likely be in RF by next year if not sooner. The only alternative he suggests is Johnny Damon, and he's High if he think the combination of Damon/Jeter for 4-5 years is better than Jeter/Giles for 3.

The Yankee way of doing things for the past 4 years, and in the 10 or so before the '94 season, would be to find the best CF available, and overpay for him. That would be the Damon move, even though Damon would likely be a poor fit in the clubhouse, in the field, and would be unproductive in the last 2-3 years of his contract.

BeantownYankee
11-18-05, 08:25 AM
I Actually think he couldn't have been further off. Comitting 3 years to a guy like Giles, whose peripheral offensive numbers over the past few years have actually been quite good, isn't throwing money at problems. What we're dealing with this year is a weak FA class, and we don't have a lot of chips to trade. Lupica is assuming that Brian Giles will be the CF for the entirety of the contract, when in all fairness, he'll likely be in RF by next year if not sooner. The only alternative he suggests is Johnny Damon, and he's High if he think the combination of Damon/Jeter for 4-5 years is better than Jeter/Giles for 3.

The Yankee way of doing things for the past 4 years, and in the 10 or so before the '94 season, would be to find the best CF available, and overpay for him. That would be the Damon move, even though Damon would likely be a poor fit in the clubhouse, in the field, and would be unproductive in the last 2-3 years of his contract.

Maybe Lupica is drolling over seeing his Red Sox Hero Damon playing in NY.:D

noneckwilliams
11-18-05, 08:35 AM
It appears that Lupica is as clueless as ever.

So they need to get older and worse defensively?

I guess we disagree on what the Yankees need. I don't see how adding another corner OFer and ignoring their defensive crappiness in the OF improves the team. Throw in the fact that it's another 3 or 4 year $10+ mill for a guy who's best years are in the rear view mirror and the Giles signing makes no sense.

aeromac76
11-18-05, 08:37 AM
The stat called "Runs Created" (Bill James' basic model for offensive production) is parlayed into "Runs Created per 27 outs" in which you take this first figure of runs created and divide it by the number of outs the player made (AB-H, sometimes adding CS or GIDP depending on the available data), and multiplying by 27 outs. The number you get is a rough estimate of how many runs a team made up of 9 clones of the player would score per game.

Although Mike Lupica may think this a one-dimensional stat, it is really not debateable that a line-up of 9 Brian Giles clones would score a ton of runs.

That's offense.

The debate about Mr. Giles may boil down to his defensive capabilities of which I have no idea as I have never seen him play.


Well you are right on here my friend. Giles will be a beast with the bat, a .400 OBP is where he'd likely start for us and work his way up. And he slugs as well. He is 35, but that is not ancient these days and even having a guy like him at 38 would not be awful.
He'll hit, and I mean really hit. He could bat anywhere from 2 to 7 and be a beast. And he stays in good shape, look at his body, he is a 35 year old in a 25 year old's body..

But the defense. I have wathced him a bit. He is not going to make anyone forget Andruw Jones, but he plays hard and catches what he gets to, which, at this point, is more than Bernie could last year. So compared to last year, he'd be a defensive upgrade, and could play there until Sheffield is done after this year, then you move him to RF and get a CFer next year. Maybe better choices by then.

I like the Giles idea A LOT..

MTYankee23
11-18-05, 08:54 AM
So they need to get older and worse defensively?

I guess we disagree on what the Yankees need. I don't see how adding another corner OFer and ignoring their defensive crappiness in the OF improves the team. Throw in the fact that it's another 3 or 4 year $10+ mill for a guy who's best years are in the rear view mirror and the Giles signing makes no sense.

I don't think that there's any evidence that he'd be any worse than Bubba Crosby in CF or that he'll decline rapidly between 35-37 (note Sheffield's age now).

Is 3 yrs at 10-11 per for Brian Giles overpaying anymore than we'd have to overpay for Damon in terms of money, or another player (Rowand, Wilkerson, Hunter) in terms of prospects? That's why his article was very shortsighted. When you look at whose available, Giles is probably the best fit, and the one who seems to be undervalued by other teams. I can almost guarantee he's not the long term solution in CF. But it does allow for the Yankees prospects at the lower levels to progress another year, and for them to draft well again.

Personally, I'd rather see us sign a guy whose ops has been over .900 for 4 of the last 5 years, to a 3 year deal, than to sign one of the available shaky middle relievers to 3 or 4 years. I'm not convinced that signing Howry, Farnsworth, etc. are going to be worth anywhere near what teams are going to be paying out in middle relief this year.

ring403
11-18-05, 09:05 AM
http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTMmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY4MTc2MTEmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2
Though Cashman was somewhat evasive about questions regarding Giles, Torre praised Giles as someone who "adds a dimension to your ballclub,'' and who "could be someone who could fit in.'' The Yankees could sign Giles, 35, to play center field next season, then slide him to right field in 2007 when Gary Sheffield's contract expires.

However, 10-12 clubs have shown interest in Giles, and teams must act fast if they want to sign him. "I would think we have a pretty good chance of getting something done with somebody prior to the winter meetings [Dec. 5-8],'' Bick told The Toronto Star in its Thursday edition.

The Blue Jays, Indians, Cardinals and Athletics are among the teams said to have interest in Giles, and the Yankees could be ready to make an offer - a possible reason Cashman was in Tampa to meet owner George Steinbrenner.

Yankyfan
11-18-05, 09:24 AM
As per WFAN latenight show a caller stated he saw an article in a St Louis paper yesterday that stated Giles will sign with the Cards by weeks end.

Posada_20
11-18-05, 09:27 AM
As per WFAN latenight show a caller stated he saw an article in a St Louis paper yesterday that stated Giles will sign with the Cards by weeks end.
I hope so. He's not the answer in CF and he wants 10 mill per season! Let the Cards have him.

StatenIslandYankee
11-18-05, 09:27 AM
Yeah, I still find it odd that Giles is really interested in the Yankees, he had a NTC for NY, why would he all of a sudden have a 'change of heart?'

ieddyi
11-18-05, 09:31 AM
As per WFAN latenight show a caller stated he saw an article in a St Louis paper yesterday that stated Giles will sign with the Cards by weeks end.

Sounds a lot like Renteria being ready to sign w/ the cardinals last offseason- how did that turn out??

Go get'm Cash

Yankyfan
11-18-05, 09:37 AM
I hope we do sign Brian.I think with Bubba it could work out well.

PerfectCone
11-18-05, 09:42 AM
I usually don't agree with Lupica and think he is a blowhard in general, but his article today was the absolute truth. Giles is NOT the answer for CF. And for everyone that is in love with Derek Jeter leading off, please. We are wasting RBI potential with him leading off. He's going to score the same amount of runs batting 2nd, but he will certainly have more opportunity to drive them in.

mycroft
11-18-05, 09:55 AM
because he is an upgrade defensively over Sheff in RF, enabling us to DH Sheff

and his offensive production and high OBP are perfect in our lineup as the #2 hitter

DH Sheff? The Yankees are looking at him for CF. Is he the answer, no, but he is a free agent, has speed and would be an upgrade.

Soriambi
11-18-05, 10:00 AM
I usually don't agree with Lupica and think he is a blowhard in general, but his article today was the absolute truth. Giles is NOT the answer for CF. And for everyone that is in love with Derek Jeter leading off, please. We are wasting RBI potential with him leading off. He's going to score the same amount of runs batting 2nd, but he will certainly have more opportunity to drive them in.

Who do you think that they should get to lead off, then?

Jim Roche
11-18-05, 10:22 AM
For me, the Yanks pursuit of Brian Giles is related to Gary Sheffield.. I may be wrong but, isn't Sheffield's contract up after this next ('06) season?
If that's the case, Sheffield has said that he wasn't going to sign an extension and the Yanks are just trying to get ahead of trying to cover themselves for when he leaves.
As far as CF is concerned between Matsui, Crosby, possibly Giles and whatever can be received in a trade involving Carl Pavano (see headlines from 11/18), I think the Yanks are going to be OK.

BJG
11-18-05, 10:24 AM
And for everyone that is in love with Derek Jeter leading off, please. We are wasting RBI potential with him leading off. He's going to score the same amount of runs batting 2nd, but he will certainly have more opportunity to drive them in.

It's a team game, not an individual game. The question should not be whether or not Jeter gets more RBIs in the 2 hole, but what is the best way for the team to score the most runs. If you put Giles or AROD in the 2 hole with Jeter leading off, you actually end up with a better hitter than Jeter with those RBI opportunities. Given that Jeter gets on base more than any other viable leadoff option out there, that better hitter gets more of those RBI opportunities. Finally, the the thing that matters the most in lineup construction is that every spot up in the order gets more plate appearences over the course of the year. If the Yankees bat Womack leadoff, for example, he would get more at bats than any other player on the team despite being the worst hitter.

Furthermore, I would add that if the Yankees actually had a better leadoff hitter than Jeter, they would probably be better off moving Jeter way down in the order, not to the 2 slot.

Sam18
11-18-05, 10:55 AM
The fact that Lupica is against the signing of Giles makes me want Giles even more.

JDPNYY
11-18-05, 11:09 AM
So they need to get older and worse defensively?

I guess we disagree on what the Yankees need. I don't see how adding another corner OFer and ignoring their defensive crappiness in the OF improves the team. Throw in the fact that it's another 3 or 4 year $10+ mill for a guy who's best years are in the rear view mirror and the Giles signing makes no sense.

A) How does Giles make the OF Defense worse? Giles is the best option out there.
2) Why should Jeter bat 2nd? Who is a better leadoff hitter than Jeter?

Lupica is clueless.

mycroft
11-18-05, 11:30 AM
For me, the Yanks pursuit of Brian Giles is related to Gary Sheffield.. I may be wrong but, isn't Sheffield's contract up after this next ('06) season?
If that's the case, Sheffield has said that he wasn't going to sign an extension and the Yanks are just trying to get ahead of trying to cover themselves for when he leaves.
As far as CF is concerned between Matsui, Crosby, possibly Giles and whatever can be received in a trade involving Carl Pavano (see headlines from 11/18), I think the Yanks are going to be OK.

The Yanks will be OK. Giles is a good player and probably the best free agent available who we have a use. Pitching pitching and more pitching and when you have enough you get more pitching.

Jace
11-18-05, 11:34 AM
The fact that Lupica is against the signing of Giles makes me want Giles even more.

He absolutely hates the Yankees (Met fan I think). I'm not surprised he doesn't want to see them get better.

mycroft
11-18-05, 11:47 AM
He absolutely hates the Yankees (Met fan I think). I'm not surprised he doesn't want to see them get better.

Lupica is an idiot, who cares what he thinks

JeffWeaverFan
11-18-05, 11:51 AM
I hate to admit it but I totally agree with Mike Lupica. There I said it. His story today is spot on.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/366938p-312252c.html
I thought that article was crap. The fact that he states that Jeter needs to be moved to the 2 spot makes no sense and to me shows he knows nothing about baseball. The fact that he gives no other options to get to play CF, except somewhat saying that the Yankees should get Damon also hurts his argument. And, if the Yankees did go out and give Damon the 5 years it would take to get here, he would yell about that (and rightfully so as that is a much worse deal than any Giles deal).

JeffWeaverFan
11-18-05, 11:53 AM
So they need to get older and worse defensively?

I guess we disagree on what the Yankees need. I don't see how adding another corner OFer and ignoring their defensive crappiness in the OF improves the team. Throw in the fact that it's another 3 or 4 year $10+ mill for a guy who's best years are in the rear view mirror and the Giles signing makes no sense.
They would get better defensively than they were the last couple seasons with Giles in CF instead of Bernie.

It's a 3 year deal and his best skills - patience - do not leave with age. Maybe his best years are in the rear view mirror, but if he can be close to what he was last year, he's a great deal.

BJG
11-18-05, 11:59 AM
They would get better defensively than they were the last couple seasons with Giles in CF instead of Bernie.

It's a 3 year deal and his best skills - patience - do not leave with age. Maybe his best years are in the rear view mirror, but if he can be close to what he was last year, he's a great deal.

If Giles were signed to play CF, it would likely be for 1 year, not the whole contract. He'd move to RF in year 2 anyway. It's a punt on CF, but it's addressing RF early.

I'd also point out that the foolish part about Lupica's article is that Damon doesn't appear to be very good in CF anymore. I think there's evidence he wouldn't be any better than Giles, he would just hit less, cost more, etc.

Jace
11-18-05, 12:02 PM
If Giles were signed to play CF, it would likely be for 1 year, not the whole contract. He'd move to RF in year 2 anyway. It's a punt on CF, but it's addressing RF early.

I'd also point out that the foolish part about Lupica's article is that Damon doesn't appear to be very good in CF anymore. I think there's evidence he wouldn't be any better than Giles, he would just hit less, cost more, etc.

He wouldn't even have to play CF the whole year. DHing Sheff and playing Giambi at first for at least half the games would allow Giles to move to right and put Bubba or any other cheap defensive cf in center.

BJG
11-18-05, 12:30 PM
He wouldn't even have to play CF the whole year. DHing Sheff and playing Giambi at first for at least half the games would allow Giles to move to right and put Bubba or any other cheap defensive cf in center.

Yes, but that's the point I was trying to make in that response. Putting Bubba in CF and dhing Shef, even if you have Giles, is worse than just keeping shef in RF. It's not that I want to keep shef in RF, but it's still relatively better.

Wang's Groundballs
11-18-05, 12:33 PM
If Giles were signed to play CF, it would likely be for 1 year, not the whole contract. He'd move to RF in year 2 anyway. It's a punt on CF, but it's addressing RF early.

I'd also point out that the foolish part about Lupica's article is that Damon doesn't appear to be very good in CF anymore. I think there's evidence he wouldn't be any better than Giles, he would just hit less, cost more, etc.

I have Damon as a -13 in the field last year. I'd be surprised if Giles isn't a better defensive CF at this point.

ICEBERG18
11-18-05, 12:38 PM
I have Damon as a -13 in the field last yearI.


What do you have Bernie at, for 2005?

PerfectCone
11-18-05, 12:39 PM
It's a team game, not an individual game. The question should not be whether or not Jeter gets more RBIs in the 2 hole, but what is the best way for the team to score the most runs. If you put Giles or AROD in the 2 hole with Jeter leading off, you actually end up with a better hitter than Jeter with those RBI opportunities. Given that Jeter gets on base more than any other viable leadoff option out there, that better hitter gets more of those RBI opportunities. Finally, the the thing that matters the most in lineup construction is that every spot up in the order gets more plate appearences over the course of the year. If the Yankees bat Womack leadoff, for example, he would get more at bats than any other player on the team despite being the worst hitter.

Furthermore, I would add that if the Yankees actually had a better leadoff hitter than Jeter, they would probably be better off moving Jeter way down in the order, not to the 2 slot.

I am fully aware of the concept of baseball being a team sport, but thanks for that. Why would you not hit Jeter 2nd? He is the consumate two hitter what with his propensity to hit the other way and move runners over as well as his ability to work the count. (take pitches, give base stealer opportunity)

Furthermore, for everyone here still advocating ARod as a two hitter...

Give me a friggin' break! There is no way that ARod should be a two hitter, in any lineup on the planet. Don't bother with all of the stats and theories as to why he does, you will not sway my opinion. ARod is a three hole or cleanup hitter, period.

BJG
11-18-05, 12:44 PM
I am fully aware of the concept of baseball being a team sport, but thanks for that. Why would you not hit Jeter 2nd? He is the consumate two hitter what with his propensity to hit the other way and move runners over as well as his ability to work the count. (take pitches, give base stealer opportunity)

Furthermore, for everyone here still advocating ARod as a two hitter...

Give me a friggin' break! There is no way that ARod should be a two hitter, in any lineup on the planet. Don't bother with all of the stats and theories as to why he does, you will not sway my opinion. ARod is a three hole or cleanup hitter, period.

So you don't want the facts? Ok, how about I just say, "cause I said so".

PerfectCone
11-18-05, 12:45 PM
OK, what are the facts according to you? Please explain how Derek Jeter should not be a second place hitter and why ARod should be. Have at it.

Wang's Groundballs
11-18-05, 12:46 PM
What do you have Bernie at, for 2005?

He was a -8, but he also had nearly 400 fewer innings in the field than Damon.

As for ZR+ (set like OPS+), Bernie was a 63 while Damon was a 75.

BJG
11-18-05, 01:02 PM
OK, what are the facts according to you? Please explain how Derek Jeter should not be a second place hitter and why ARod should be. Have at it.

1. Assuming that the Yankees were able to acquire a leadoff hitter who was better than Jeter, Jeter would be the 6th best hitter on the team behind said new leadoff hitter, AROD, Sheffield, Matsui, and Giambi. In order to maximize run scoring, it makes sense to give your best hitters the most chances to hit. While there are some other considerations for lineup construction, this should be the primary one.

2. There is no correlation between productive outs (i.e. hitting the ball to the right side) and more runs and more wins

3. On a team like the Yankees, which should have a circular lineup, RBI opportunities will come at all spots, so I'm not really worried about AROD or whomever missing RBI opportunities simply becuase he starts the game hitting second. I'd rather maximize his number of at bats, per the above, and because the Yankees have other good hitters, this is possible.

4. Jeter actually sees fewer pitches per plate appearance than Giambi, Sheffield, or AROD if that is a concern for you.

Tifoso
11-18-05, 01:03 PM
4. Jeter actually sees fewer pitches per plate appearance than Giambi, Sheffield, or AROD if that is a concern for you.


Now that is an interesting line. WOW.

ICEBERG18
11-18-05, 01:12 PM
Mike Lupica-"And Damon still fits what the Yankees need - he's an actual leadoff man, for one thing - more than Giles ever could."

GILES, .423-OBP
JETER, .389-OBP
DAMON, .366-OBP

:dunno: :dunno:

Jace
11-18-05, 01:18 PM
Mike Lupica-"And Damon still fits what the Yankees need - he's an actual leadoff man, for one thing - more than Giles ever could."

GILES, .423-OBP
JETER, .389-OBP
DAMON, .366-OBP

:dunno: :dunno:

An Actual Leadoff Man (TM Registered Copywrighted)! Oh boy!

You know 7 years and $84 mil sounds about right. Send the bill to Lupica.

whalers
11-18-05, 01:19 PM
Mike Lupica-"And Damon still fits what the Yankees need - he's an actual leadoff man, for one thing - more than Giles ever could."

GILES, .423-OBP
JETER, .389-OBP
DAMON, .366-OBP

:dunno: :dunno:

I was thinking the same thing. Its not like Giles is slow either.

Tifoso
11-18-05, 01:21 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Its not like Giles is slow either.

Lupica says to get Damon. It's settled, then--we go for Giles :)

panicfan
11-18-05, 01:38 PM
No he didn't. Didn't you read the part where he said that Damon's arm last year made Bernie's look great. All he was saying was that Giles, is old, past his prime, expensive, and not a natural center fielder. In other words, he is not the answer to the Yanks problems.

Lupica says to get Damon. It's settled, then--we go for Giles :)

Tifoso
11-18-05, 01:43 PM
No he didn't. Didn't you read the part where he said that Damon's arm last year made Bernie's look great. All he was saying was that Giles, is old, past his prime, expensive, and not a natural center fielder. In other words, he is not the answer to the Yanks problems.


Missed that (how?) :o

Thanks for the correction.

Not sure that Giles is past his prime, though.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-18-05, 01:49 PM
Lupica is a moron...

Sam18
11-18-05, 01:54 PM
Lupica is a moron...

That's an insult to morons everywhere.

Tifoso
11-18-05, 01:54 PM
That's an insult to morons everywhere.

:lol:

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-18-05, 02:04 PM
No he didn't. Didn't you read the part where he said that Damon's arm last year made Bernie's look great. All he was saying was that Giles, is old, past his prime, expensive, and not a natural center fielder. In other words, he is not the answer to the Yanks problems.

First off signing Giles doesn't mean we couldn't also get a CFer. In fact I think signing Giles would make it easier to trade for a CFer considering we would have leverage in any trade situation and not look desperate. Secondly, if Giles were to play CF, it would probably be for next year but not the remaining years of the contract, he'd be a stopgap considering he could/would just slide to right after Sheffield is gone. If like last year following his "prime" post his .900+ OPS thats fine with me. Also, I would look for his SLG to increase due to park factors. As for being expensive, he is worth the money, we just paid Matsui 52 million, and he isn't near the player Giles is...

BJG
11-18-05, 02:23 PM
No he didn't. Didn't you read the part where he said that Damon's arm last year made Bernie's look great. All he was saying was that Giles, is old, past his prime, expensive, and not a natural center fielder. In other words, he is not the answer to the Yanks problems.

Apparently, you missed Lupica's next sentence. After noting that Damon can't throw, he states, "and Damon still fits what the Yankees need - he's an actual leadoff man, for one thing - more than Giles ever could." It certainly seems that he is actively advocating going after Damon.

ReggieBar
11-18-05, 02:24 PM
First off signing Giles doesn't mean we couldn't also get a CFer. In fact I think signing Giles would make it easier to trade for a CFer considering we would have leverage in any trade situation and not look desperate. Secondly, if Giles were to play CF, it would probably be for next year but not the remaining years of the contract, he'd be a stopgap considering he could/would just slide to right after Sheffield is gone. If like last year following his "prime" post his .900+ OPS thats fine with me. Also, I would look for his SLG to increase due to park factors. As for being expensive, he is worth the money, we just paid Matsui 52 million, and he isn't near the player Giles is...


Right on with this post. Look past next season and the team with Giles can go in a great direction. It allows them to explore a better solution for CF with another year. I can understand why posters get nervous at anyone over the age of 32, but Giles is replacing Sheffield long term so RF is getting younger AND Giles is a great fit for this team both as a player and a personality.

I Love Wang
11-18-05, 02:31 PM
I don't see what is so hard to understand about this for these writers. He's still an elite hitter. He played in one of the most unbalanced parks in baseball, and had a home OPS under .800. However, his road OPS was 1.008. Thats fantastic, and it certainly seems to fit the idea that his numbers will improve if he gets out of Petco. Giles would be a humungous upgrade over Bernie Williams. He would be a solid improvement defensively, and a massive improvement offensively. He still ranked as an above-average outfielder last year.

Sam18
11-18-05, 02:33 PM
I don't see what is so hard to understand about this for these writers. He's still an elite hitter. He played in one of the most unbalanced parks in baseball, and had a home OPS under .800. However, his road OPS was 1.008. Thats fantastic, and it certainly seems to fit the idea that his numbers will improve if he gets out of Petco. Giles would be a humungous upgrade over Bernie Williams. He would be a solid improvement defensively, and a massive improvement offensively. He still ranked as an above-average outfielder last year.

Damon creates headlines. Giles makes sense for the Yankees.

If you were a writer which one would you hope for?

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-18-05, 02:36 PM
He still ranked as an above-average outfielder last year.

By what defensive measures?

aeromac76
11-18-05, 04:56 PM
By what defensive measures?

I don't know about the numbers but I did watch Giles a few times last year, when he played the Mets and when I was out in business in San Diego, and I cannot say how he measures up against the average CFer but I can say without a doubt he is light leagues better defensively than anyone we had play CF last year other than Bubba, and Giles' bat is so lethal he'd be a better player even if Bubba Crosby was as good as Willie Mays defensively.
Giles played in a major pitchers park last year, and I think his road OPS was something over 1.000. I mean he had a subpar year and still hit over .300 and had a .423 OBP. Heck if he does nothing more than that this year, he is so ideal a number two hitter ir borders on ridiculous he is such a good fit..

panicfan
11-18-05, 05:23 PM
It looks to me that he's advocating get a real leadoff hitter in the mold of Damon, not necessarily Captain Caveman himself.

Apparently, you missed Lupica's next sentence. After noting that Damon can't throw, he states, "and Damon still fits what the Yankees need - he's an actual leadoff man, for one thing - more than Giles ever could." It certainly seems that he is actively advocating going after Damon.

dabomb2045
11-18-05, 05:25 PM
Apparently, you missed Lupica's next sentence. After noting that Damon can't throw, he states, "and Damon still fits what the Yankees need - he's an actual leadoff man, for one thing - more than Giles ever could." It certainly seems that he is actively advocating going after Damon.


we already have a real leadoff hitter...I think his name is Jeter or something like that

Sam18
11-18-05, 05:27 PM
It looks to me that he's advocating get a real leadoff hitter in the mold of Damon, not necessarily Captain Caveman himself.

We already have a real leadoff hitter. Infact we have the best leadoff hitter in all of baseball.

BJG
11-18-05, 05:30 PM
It looks to me that he's advocating get a real leadoff hitter in the mold of Damon, not necessarily Captain Caveman himself.

Well gee, panic, what other 'true centerfield' 'true leadoff hitters' are on the market?

panicfan
11-18-05, 05:33 PM
Rowand is on the trading block, probably others we don't know about. I don't think there's any question about us not getting Damon. He's looking for a Bernie Williams deal circa 7 years.

Regardless, should we over pay for Giles because there is nothing better out there?

The Man is 35, his best years are behind hin,

Well gee, panic, what other 'true centerfield' 'true leadoff hitters' are on the market?

BJG
11-18-05, 05:43 PM
Rowand is on the trading block, probably others we don't know about. I don't think there's any question about us not getting Damon. He's looking for a Bernie Williams deal circa 7 years.

Regardless, should we over pay for Giles because there is nothing better out there?

The Man is 35, his best years are behind hin,

Please. Lupica mentions Damon by name. The Yankees may not be interested, but Mike clearly is. Oh, and while a guy like Rowand might be in the market, I doubt that he fits Lupica's definition of a 'true leadoff hitter', which is what he wants the player to be in addition to a 'true centerfielder'.

Anyway, why is paying market value for Giles overpaying? This is a concept that keeps getting repeated and I just don't get it. Giving Giles $16M a year would be overpaying. Giving him what similar players get is paying to the market.

There's no indication that Giles is declining. He was better last year than he was the year before. He was better last year than his career average. He has a skill set that tends to age well. While he is certainly past his prime, you always have to consider what a players peak is when you make a statement like you did. Jeter's best years are behind hiim too. That doesn't mean he still isn't a good hitter.

Finally, Giles addresses long term issues. He opens up the possibility to trade Sheffield to address CF now or he allows the Yankees to address CF next season when there might be a better option.

panicfan
11-18-05, 06:00 PM
Just to address the market value idea.

There are almost no good players on the market this year. Therefore, the few that are out there can set their price and hold any team negotiating with them over a barrel.

And I don't get how getting a corner outfielder when we need a centerfielder addresses our issues. If we get Giles, trade Sheff and get a solid defensive centerfielder back than I'm all for this. Otherwise, no thanks.

Please. Lupica mentions Damon by name. The Yankees may not be interested, but Mike clearly is. Oh, and while a guy like Rowand might be in the market, I doubt that he fits Lupica's definition of a 'true leadoff hitter', which is what he wants the player to be in addition to a 'true centerfielder'.

Anyway, why is paying market value for Giles overpaying? This is a concept that keeps getting repeated and I just don't get it. Giving Giles $16M a year would be overpaying. Giving him what similar players get is paying to the market.

There's no indication that Giles is declining. He was better last year than he was the year before. He was better last year than his career average. He has a skill set that tends to age well. While he is certainly past his prime, you always have to consider what a players peak is when you make a statement like you did. Jeter's best years are behind hiim too. That doesn't mean he still isn't a good hitter.

Finally, Giles addresses long term issues. He opens up the possibility to trade Sheffield to address CF now or he allows the Yankees to address CF next season when there might be a better option.

BJG
11-18-05, 06:13 PM
Just to address the market value idea.

There are almost no good players on the market this year. Therefore, the few that are out there can set their price and hold any team negotiating with them over a barrel.

And I don't get how getting a corner outfielder when we need a centerfielder addresses our issues. If we get Giles, trade Sheff and get a solid defensive centerfielder back than I'm all for this. Otherwise, no thanks.

1. Then that's what the market value is. When you 'overpay', you pay more than the market value...you pay over the market value. I don't think there's any indication, btw, that Giles is looking for a crazy, unrealistic deal, which may well be part of the attraction.

2. Because there aren't any good centerfielders available? Because the best 'centerfielder', on the open market, Damon, is actually probably a worse defender, in center, than the corner outfielder. Because you can't trade Shef until you sign Giles, and trading Sheffield appears to be one of the best ways to get a CF now. Because even if you don't trade Shef, he's gone in 2007 and now you don't have to worry about finding a replacement in what appears to be a weak RF market, the team is better in 2006 than they were in 2005 even if CF still isn't solved, and you can wait and see if a better CF deal comes along.

ICEBERG18
11-18-05, 06:41 PM
Mike Lupica-"And Damon still fits what the Yankees need - he's an actual leadoff man, for one thing - more than Giles ever could."

GILES, .423-OBP
JETER, .389-OBP
DAMON, .366-OBP

:dunno: :dunno:


-DAMON VS. JETER-

I got a bunch of mail on Damon and Jeter as leadoff hitters, due, I think, to this morning's Mike Lupica's column on same. Simply: there is no inherent reason that Damon is a leadoff hitter and Jeter is a No. 2 hitter except that Lupica (and others) has those images of them in his head. You could bat them eighth and ninth, and if you had a lineup of seven Babe Ruths, that would be the smartest thing you could do. There is no rule of physics nor any commandment in the Bible that says that Damon is immutably a leadoff hitter or that Jeter must inevitably snap back to the second spot.

I was going to explain this with actual baseball stuff (he said in his highly articulate manner), but reader Ed did it for me. Take it away, Ed:

I completely agree with you that Jeter is a very good leadoff hitter, but for whatever reason, many still cannot see that. Today, Mike Lupica said that Johnny Damon "fits what the Yankees really need — an actual leadoff man." And that the Yankees need Jeter to "return to the No. 2 spot." That seems to echo the sentiments of many in the "Yankees need a leadoff hitter" camp. In other words, people who follow this line of thinking believe that Damon is an elite leadoff hitter and Jeter is out of place. That opens up the perfect argument. Let's compare Jeter to Damon in the important leadoff categories. If Damon is great and Jeter is substandard, we should find some statistical differences. All stats are from 2005:

OBP
Jeter: .389
Damon: .366
Both very good, but the edge goes to Jeter

OBP when leading off an inning
Jeter .409
Damon .365
For all of the "clutch" and "situational" guys, Jeter is even better

Runs (Also known as the way the score is kept)
Jeter: 122
Damon: 117
The Yankees and Red Sox are about even in the middle of the order, so we can call this close to even

Plate appearance to runs scored ratio (PA/R)
Jeter: 5.88
Damon: 6.16
Wait a minute, Jeter scored more often per plate appearance than Damon?

Average pitches seen per plate appearance
Jeter: 3.82
Damon: 3.72
Judging by this stat, Jeter was actually a little more patient than Damon, even though their reputations suggest otherwise.

Stolen bases
Jeter: 14
Damon: 18
For those who don't know, neither team likes to steal bases. But I guess we'll give that edge to Damon.

Very simply, it is completely ignorant to refer to Damon as the "leadoff hitter the Yankees need" and to Jeter as someone who "belongs in the No. 2 spot." These two are very similar offensive players in every category. I would have no problem with the Yankees putting a hitter of Damon's caliber in the leadoff spot, but to suggest that removing Jeter from the leadoff spot should be a Yankees priority is preposterous.

Good job, Ed. Since individual seasons can contain fluke performances, it should probably be pointed out that Jeter's career rate stats are .314/.386/.461, while Damon's are .290/.353/.431. For those that care about stolen bases, Jeter trails 215 to 281, an insignificant difference. In careers of almost exactly the same length, Jeter leads in walks 636 to 598. He leads in home runs 169 to 130. Jeter hits for a higher average, reaches base more often, and has more power.

The main function of the batting order is to distribute playing time. This is the most important fact to understand about lineups. Who bats first in the first inning is not important when you look at games one at a time. Taken over a full season, who bats leadoff every day is more critical, because that player is going to bat more often than every other player on the team. Obviously that includes the guy who bats No. 2.

Assuming, then, that you had both Jeter and Damon and were going to bat one first and one second, on what basis would you want to give Damon more playing time than Jeter? There is none. It's just an image, or as Bob Dylan sang in "Mr. Tambourine Man," "It's just a shadow you're seeing that he's chasing."
http://yesnetwork.com/yankees/pinstripedblog.asp

YankeePride1967
11-18-05, 08:18 PM
And you know this because...

Nobody knows either way, but I don't think it's taking a leap to say that someone who had the Yankees as one of his 8 teams on his no-trade clause most likely doesn't want to come here now.

MassNYYfan
11-18-05, 10:38 PM
I have a hard time believing Cashman will sign Giles as the CF solution. I see him signing as the Yankees everyday RF with Sheffield moving to DH, and Cashman going hard after Milton Bradley or Aaron Rowand (more likely since Sheff would be slightly more expendable in a 3-team trade). If a good defensive CF is NOT found however, then Giles would slide right into the position and Sheff would return as the everyday RF. Defense is slightly upgraded and the offense is much better. Win-win situation for us.

I think you nailed it, nyc. I was thinking the same thing. They want Giles, they'll live with a platoon CF situation for a year if they have to. Meanwhile, they'll use the addition of Giles to cover up any perceived desperation while looking at other CF trades.

BJG
11-18-05, 10:45 PM
Interesting note from Michael Lichtman today in which he indicates his belief that, "there are no indications, at least statistically, that Giles would not be an average or perhaps better CF'er even at his age".

Stupid Flanders
11-18-05, 10:52 PM
I'm listening to XM radio's Home Plate channel and they have a San Diego writer on who actally said that Giles prefers to play CF to RF. He thinks he can play CF just fine in Yankee Stadium. Also, that Giles really wants to win a WS ring. Nothing more than hearsay from one writer that knows Giles.I live in SD. I heard the exact same thing the last couple of days.

Giles wants:
Years.
Security (money)
A guaranteed role (this could be the sticking points for the Yankees as he might be CF, might be RF, might be LF)
A ring.

According to what I hear, if the Yankees come across with an offer, it's good and they define his role before he signs, he will.

Stupid Flanders
11-18-05, 10:55 PM
I hate to admit it but I totally agree with Mike Lupica. There I said it. His story today is spot on.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/366938p-312252c.html
Mike Lupica is a Jackass (http://highandtight.blogspot.com/2005/11/mike-lupica-is-jackass-chapter-two.html)

Stupid Flanders
11-18-05, 10:58 PM
Yeah, I still find it odd that Giles is really interested in the Yankees, he had a NTC for NY, why would he all of a sudden have a 'change of heart?'A lot of players will list the Yanks on their limited NTCs because they know they can demand an extension to agree to a trade

ring403
11-18-05, 10:59 PM
Interesting note from Michael Lichtman today in which he indicates his belief that, "there are no indications, at least statistically, that Giles would not be an average or perhaps better CF'er even at his age".What is MGL basing his opinion on? His combined 2005 UZR? Also, has he said what Giles's 2005 UZR was?

YankeePride1967
11-18-05, 11:00 PM
Mike Lupica is a Jackass (http://highandtight.blogspot.com/2005/11/mike-lupica-is-jackass-chapter-two.html)

All someone has to do to determine what Lupica knows about baseball is read that article. He would actually rather sign Damon over Giles.

Stupid Flanders
11-18-05, 11:00 PM
I usually don't agree with Lupica and think he is a blowhard in general, but his article today was the absolute truth. Giles is NOT the answer for CF. And for everyone that is in love with Derek Jeter leading off, please. We are wasting RBI potential with him leading off. He's going to score the same amount of runs batting 2nd, but he will certainly have more opportunity to drive them in.
He would score the same amount of runs because he has the same OBP and the same players batting behind him

This doesn't mean he shouldn't lead off

Stupid Flanders
11-18-05, 11:02 PM
Don't bother with all of the stats you will not sway my opinion.
Well, there's no debate here then.

JDPNYY
11-18-05, 11:04 PM
Well, there's no debate here then.

See, Lupica does have fans.

Rich
11-18-05, 11:05 PM
Giles wouldn't even necessarily play CF very often. He could play RF and Sheff could DH. His offense would enable the Yankees to compensate for Bubba's bat or lack thereof.

BJG
11-18-05, 11:06 PM
What is MGL basing his opinion on? His combined 2005 UZR? Also, has he said what Giles's 2005 UZR was?

I believe he's looking as far back as 1999, taking into account the amount of time that Giles has played in CF, how he did when he played there, and how he's played at other positions. The past time in CF he views more as an indication that nothing surprising would happen if he switched back to CF now, with most of his opinion based on more recent seasons.

He didn't indicate his 2005 UZR in RF, but given what we basically know about the difference when RFs move to CF, you would have to think that it's pretty solid if he is still going to be average to slightly above in CF.

Stupid Flanders
11-18-05, 11:10 PM
I'm making the call now. IF they sign Giles (which is up to Giles) Pavano goes to LA and the Yanks get Bradley+, or he goes in a three team deal and the Yanks get Rowand or Wilkerson.

BJG
11-18-05, 11:10 PM
Giles wouldn't even necessarily play CF very often. He could play RF and Sheff could DH. His offense would enable the Yankees to compensate for Bubba's bat or lack thereof.

If I had to choose between Bubba CF/Giles RF/Shef DH and Giles CF/Shef RF/Average DH, i'd have to go with the second scenario, especially if mgl's assessment of Giles' defense is accurate. I know Shef can't field, but you would have to do an awful lot to compensate for a below replacement level bat like Bubba's.

Rich
11-18-05, 11:27 PM
If I had to choose between Bubba CF/Giles RF/Shef DH and Giles CF/Shef RF/Average DH, i'd have to go with the second scenario, especially if mgl's assessment of Giles' defense is accurate. I know Shef can't field, but you would have to do an awful lot to compensate for a below replacement level bat like Bubba's.

I don't disagree.

nyyanksfan20
11-19-05, 12:37 AM
Card's no longer after Giles?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument


Of prime importance to the Cardinals is clearly pitching. The Cardinals have told the agent for outfielder Brian Giles, a player of great interest to fill a vacancy, that they are now focused on pitching.

They looked to be our prime contenders, I like our chances a whole lot more now.


(http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument)

Boricua21
11-19-05, 12:38 AM
I don't know if Giles is the answer. He's a 35 yr. old who doesn't seem excited about coming to the East Coast. Too bad Damon won't do a 3 or 4 year deal. Rowand is the answer, yet I think Juan Pierre is the key. He's our man. Defense first, bat second.

Rich
11-19-05, 12:44 AM
I don't know if Giles is the answer. He's a 35 yr. old who doesn't seem excited about coming to the East Coast. Too bad Damon won't do a 3 or 4 year deal. Rowand is the answer, yet I think Juan Pierre is the key. He's our man. Defense first, bat second.

Giles is much better player than Damon, and he is 100000000000000 times better than Pierre, who isn't good offensively or defensively.

Sam18
11-19-05, 12:45 AM
Card's no longer after Giles?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument ("http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument")



They looked to be our prime contenders, I like our chances a whole lot more now.


("http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument")

Oh God please let this be true...

Boricua21
11-19-05, 12:48 AM
Giles is much better player than Damon, and he is 100000000000000 times better than Pierre, who isn't good offensively or defensively.

You think so? I don't know. I must admit, I haven't seen that much of him, even though I now live in S.D. Do you really think he is a better fielder than Damon or Pierre? He's 35, so he's at the end of a good career.

YankClipper5
11-19-05, 12:53 AM
I fear the age of Giles and the fact that he is switching leagues without real big market or post season success. I wouldn't mind him in a corner spot but not over Sheff so that would mean dealing Sheff for SERIOUS centerfield help.

Rich
11-19-05, 12:54 AM
You think so? I don't know. I must admit, I haven't seen that much of him, even though I now live in S.D. Do you really think he is a better fielder than Damon or Pierre? He's 35, so he's at the end of a good career.

Despite his superior speed, Pierre gets a bad jump on balls, which makes him, at best, an average CFer. Damon is probably a little better CFer than Giles, but he is in decline despite only being 32, and he has a terrible arm.

Giles can likely play an average CF, while blowing the other two away with his offense. His OBP is Giambi-like.

He is the best OF investment available.

YankClipper5
11-19-05, 12:54 AM
You think so? I don't know. I must admit, I haven't seen that much of him, even though I now live in S.D. Do you really think he is a better fielder than Damon or Pierre? He's 35, so he's at the end of a good career.

Damon is a mediocre fielder with a poor arm, Pierre, much like young Bernie, outruns his defensive woes in reading the ball.

AMYanks
11-19-05, 12:57 AM
Card's no longer after Giles?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument



They looked to be our prime contenders, I like our chances a whole lot more now.


(http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument)

That's a huge development. Eliminates the team that, in all likelihood, were the front-runners.

nyyanksfan20
11-19-05, 01:08 AM
Although I have never seen Giles play center I would imagine him being somewhat close to what Matsui is in center, probably a little bit better. That said even if the Yanks do sign Giles, I still believe Crosby will be in center as much if not more than Giles will be. I think the Yanks view Giles as a guy who can help prolong Sheff's career. Also because he is capable of playing all 3 OF posistions it will allow Matsui to get days off in the field too. By not allowing Sheff to not have to play the field everyday that will make Sheff more productive and healthier. So again I would not view Giles as your everyday CF.

Boricua21
11-19-05, 01:10 AM
I don't mind Crosby in center at all. I'm confident in his playmaking abilities. The bat will come around with the help of Donnie. I'm just not completely sold on Giles. A lot of it is my ignorance in his play though and not having seen much of him.

Rich
11-19-05, 01:19 AM
I don't mind Crosby in center at all. I'm confident in his playmaking abilities. The bat will come around with the help of Donnie. I'm just not completely sold on Giles. A lot of it is my ignorance in his play though and not having seen much of him.

Crosby will turn 30 next season. the chances that his "bat will come around" are remote at best.

You win games by outscoring other teams. Giles is MUCH better at helping his team do that (offense/defense) than Crosby.

panicfan
11-19-05, 01:28 AM
The Yankees don't need more offense, they need more defense and bullpen help. If using Crosby in CF lets us address real glaring needs i.e. how to get from the 6th inning to Mo without blowing the game then I'm all for it. We already missed the boat on Eyre.

Crosby will turn 30 next season. the chances that his "bat will come around" are remote at best.

You win games by outscoring other teams. Giles is MUCH better at helping his team do that (offense/defense) than Crosby.

Kulish29
11-19-05, 01:32 AM
The Yankees don't need more offense, they need more defense and bullpen help. If using Crosby in CF lets us address real glaring needs i.e. how to get from the 6th inning to Mo without blowing the game then I'm all for it.

You can never have too much offense.


We already missed the boat on Eyre.

Eyre was never going to come here. He wanted to stay in the National League.

Kulish29
11-19-05, 01:37 AM
Oh God please let this be true...

If it is, it's excellent. It means our biggest competitor is no longer interested and his options are getting thinner.

Rich
11-19-05, 01:37 AM
The Yankees don't need more offense, they need more defense and bullpen help. If using Crosby in CF lets us address real glaring needs i.e. how to get from the 6th inning to Mo without blowing the game then I'm all for it. We already missed the boat on Eyre.

Really? The Bermuda Triangle of futility that made up the bottom third of their batting order last season (Bernie, Tino, and too often Posada) killed way too many rallies. The team often scored in bunches or not at all.

There is no complete CFer available at a reasonable price, but if one becomes available, Giles can play RF, and Sheff can DH, if he isn't traded for that CFer.

Erye has had one really good season and will turn 34 next season. I didn't want him at the ridiculous price he signed.

Boricua21
11-19-05, 01:38 AM
Crosby will turn 30 next season. the chances that his "bat will come around" are remote at best.

You win games by outscoring other teams. Giles is MUCH better at helping his team do that (offense/defense) than Crosby.

:roflmao: "bat will come around"...you got me. I was speaking metaphorically, but that was funny. Spit out my water.

nyyanksfan20
11-19-05, 01:42 AM
We won alot of games with Crosby in Center last year and think about it if we signed Giles you would be replacing a Tino or Bernie bat with Giles. That's a huge difference and that would allow you to have a Crosby in your lineup.

SoCal Pinstriper
11-19-05, 02:03 AM
I don't mind Crosby in center at all. I'm confident in his playmaking abilities. The bat will come around with the help of Donnie. I'm just not completely sold on Giles. A lot of it is my ignorance in his play though and not having seen much of him.There are alot of stats around, and like all of them, Win Shares has its proponents and detractors. I've always thought that it provides a decent (though not perfect0 tool for comparing players value (including defense).

2005 Win Shares (Major League Outfielders)
1 NL B Giles SD 35
2 AL M Ramirez BOS 34
3 NL J Bay PIT OF 34
4 AL G Sheffield NYA 33
5 NL M Cabrera FLA OF 29
6 NL J Edmonds STL OF 28
7 NL A Dunn CIN OF 28
8 NL B Abreu PHI OF 28
9 AL V Guerrero LAA OF 27
10 NL C Floyd NYN OF 26
http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php?search=&linesToDisplay=100&sort=total&sort2=WSAB&limit1=Team&limit2=OF&leagueLimit=Both

Just intended to provide an idea of Giles relative value for someone who hasn't seen him play alot (Can't imagine how you would as SD was barely on TV out here).

My only real concern about Giles is his age.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting that Giles is the best outfielder in the game, but rather that he belongs in an elite group at the top.

New Murderer's Row
11-19-05, 02:28 AM
i saw giles play in dozens of games at petco, he's damn good. i thought he was going downhill when he started hitting 20-25 homers for the padres instead of 35-40 and his OPS dipped, but he rebounded last year. the only thing i fear is he pulls a randy johnson and fights minor injuries and becomes way inconsistent after an amazingly productive season.
for an older team signing 35+ year olds is generally a bad idea, but i think giles could be too good for the yankees to pass up. and because he stopped hitting so many homers, he could actually be cheaper than what he deserves. i just hope the yankees didn't drive the market up with the matsui signing.

Stupid Flanders
11-19-05, 02:32 AM
Despite his superior speed, Pierre gets a bad jump on balls, which makes him, at best, an average CFer. Damon is probably a little better CFer than Giles, but he is in decline despite only being 32, and he has a terrible arm.

Giles can likely play an average CF, while blowing the other two away with his offense. His OBP is Giambi-like.

He is the best OF investment available.
*sigh*

Rich, he steals bases. This means he's a great leadoff hitter and outstanding defender

Don't give me no stats

scull567
11-19-05, 02:34 AM
*sigh*

Rich, he steals bases. This means he's a great leadoff hitter and outstanding defender

Don't give me no stats

:lol: And he doesn't hit homeruns. Leadoff hitters should not be hitting homeruns. They should be slapping the ball on the ground.

Boricua21
11-19-05, 02:51 AM
Does anyone think we should've gotten that kid named....uh.....was it Beltran? :lol:

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 03:32 AM
Does anyone think we should've gotten that kid named....uh.....was it Beltran? :lol:

No. We shouldn't have. He signed a ridiculous long-term deal with the Mets, and proceeded to become...uh... was it mediocre?

Yankees13
11-19-05, 03:59 AM
I don't know if people here are big win share fans, but according to win shares, Giles was the 4th best player in baseball last year. The Yankees need to do whatever possible to get this guy.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 04:49 AM
Does anyone think we should've gotten that kid named....uh.....was it Beltran? :lol:

And have 17 million tied up on a player who needs lessons on how to get on base and was a failure in his first year in NY? No thanks. By the way (not directed at you, B21, but in general), has anyone ever asked an astute Mets fan how well he played the outfield, even after his "injury" heeled? Seems like he has a bad habit of letting too many catchable balls drop in--balls that Cameron would have eaten up.

YankeePride1967
11-19-05, 08:15 AM
Card's no longer after Giles?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument



They looked to be our prime contenders, I like our chances a whole lot more now.


(http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument)

If this is true then our chances just grew greatly. I honestly thought St. Louis was his destination.

YankeePride1967
11-19-05, 08:17 AM
The Yankees don't need more offense, they need more defense and bullpen help. If using Crosby in CF lets us address real glaring needs i.e. how to get from the 6th inning to Mo without blowing the game then I'm all for it. We already missed the boat on Eyre.

You are right, we need defense in CF, which is why Crosby should not be out there.

Yanks Lifer
11-19-05, 09:03 AM
[QUOTE=nyyanksfan20]Card's no longer after Giles?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument



They looked to be our prime contenders, I like our chances a whole lot more now.

[url="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/85836E98A93E1474862570BE001A0AD2?OpenDocument"]

Is there reason to believe the Padres won't make a push to re-sign Giles? Seems he'd stay there for less.

ring403
11-19-05, 09:03 AM
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051119/SPORTS01/511190365/1108
NEW YORK — The Yankees generally don't ask Joe Torre to make recruiting calls to free agents unless they're serious about a player. So far, he's 0 for 1.

Torre called Scott Eyre earlier this week, but the left-handed reliever signed a three-year deal with the Chicago Cubs on Thursday.

"My record so far isn't very good this year," Torre said last night. "It's biting into my percentage."

Torre's next target is outfielder Brian Giles, who the Yankees believe can fill their vacancy in center field.

"I called and left him a message; he called and left me a message," Torre said. "I still haven't spoken with him."

General manager Brian Cashman, in Tampa, Fla., for two days of organizational meetings, called Torre three times yesterday. Their focus is on the outfield and bullpen.

ring403
11-19-05, 09:05 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/57882.htm
The Yankees are fixated on Brian Giles, and GM Brian Cashman spoke with Giles' agent, Joe Bick, again yesterday. The Post has learned that former Yankee Paul O'Neill, who now does work with the YES Network, placed a recruiting call to Giles. Both men have Bick as their agent.

Torre said that in the event someone like Giles signed, no decision on the center-field gig would be made until spring training.

JDPNYY
11-19-05, 09:14 AM
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051119/SPORTS01/511190365/1108

Torre needs to stay the hell home and wait for Giles to call.

justinvarnes
11-19-05, 09:49 AM
Giles makes perfect sense.

Yes he is 35, which means in 3 years, he will be a mediocre to below-average RF, but that's ok. Right now he will play a good CF (remember that average saves the Yanks ~44 runs a year compared to the last couple of years.)

It will allow Sheff to move to DH more often, and eventually stay there, assuming his bat speed holds up.

It will allow the yanks to keep their prospects and let the OF prospects develop over the next two years.

Most importantly, it will increase the yankees' offense AND defense.


It should be the one Big FA (non-pitching) signing this offseason.

nycdoc999
11-19-05, 09:54 AM
Giles is fine, but without pitching help, we're turning in to the Texas Rangers....

Cash needs to go hard after pen help. Problem is, the people we want are wanted by others as well, often in more prominent roles.

junkman73
11-19-05, 10:52 AM
He's a little too old for my liking. I know its slim pickings, but I would rather put Bubba in CF and if he hits .250, so be it. I don't see Giles as an exceptional outfielder that would improve their defense.

Its too bad Duncan is having problems defensively, I would love to see Jeter make the move to CF like Robin Yount did and ARod go back to short. Anything to prolong Derek's career gets my vote. I just think it would be less wear and tear on him.

Yanks Lifer
11-19-05, 11:37 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/57882.htm


O'Neill seemed to genuinely enjoy his time in the Bronx and obviously thrived there. If this story is true, I'd have to believe his comments to Giles about NY would really get Giles thinking since I've seen it said that they are similar personalities.

Bernie Inferno
11-19-05, 12:00 PM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/57882.htm Good to see #21 involved!

RhodyYanksFan
11-19-05, 12:01 PM
Giles is not the end all for CF. IF we get him, I still see us as picking up a very good defensive CF. IF noot, we have Bubba to play that role w/ Giles, Sheff, Matsui,Posada nad Giambi cycling throug DH.



Teams with 5 DH's don't win World Series.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-19-05, 12:03 PM
Were getting him, its gonna be awesome...

ShaneTravis
11-19-05, 12:10 PM
Were getting him, its gonna be awesome...

Get him and then call the Pod's and see if Roberts is available now that Cameron is signed.
A 4th outfielder should still be looked for. Using Sheff at DH would be ideal.

Padres acquired outfielder Mike Cameron from the Mets for first baseman-outfielder Xavier Nady.
Obviously, he passed his phycial. Even though he didn't demand a trade, Cameron is happy to be back in center field. The Padres will either use Dave Roberts in left field or trade him. Also, it appears that Ryan Klesko will move back to first base. Ben Johnson could play right field, but the Padres will keep looking for upgrades. This trade does nothing for Cameron's fantasy value, and because there are still lingering concerns following the collision, we probably won't be recommending him next year.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 12:54 PM
Dave Roberts, if he's available, would be an interesting option in CF. His defense was lousy last year, but he'd been a good CFer every year up until then, so I have a feeling he could bounce back. And he was a solid hitter last year. The only thing that would worry me about Roberts is that Torre might lead him off.

Mattpat11
11-19-05, 12:59 PM
Does anyone think we should've gotten that kid named....uh.....was it Beltran? :lol: Nope. He's being grossly overpaid for what he has traditionally produced and especially what he gave last year.

Mattpat11
11-19-05, 01:10 PM
He's a little too old for my liking. I know its slim pickings, but I would rather put Bubba in CF and if he hits .250, so be it. . It might be asking alot for Bubba to hit .250

AMYanks
11-19-05, 01:13 PM
Watch Giles be pissed off with all these Yankee people calling him, and decided to sign elsewhere.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 01:14 PM
He's a little too old for my liking. I know its slim pickings, but I would rather put Bubba in CF and if he hits .250, so be it. I don't see Giles as an exceptional outfielder that would improve their defense.

Why would you rather have the much worse player?

NewEraYanks2527
11-19-05, 01:23 PM
Nope. He's being grossly overpaid for what he has traditionally produced and especially what he gave last year.
Thats exactly right, though he would have filled our need he wanted superstar money and he is NOT a superstar. A good postseason and good year came all in his contract year and all at the right time, the Mets overpaid CAN WE PLEASE JUST MOVE ON!

ShaneTravis
11-19-05, 02:05 PM
Dave Roberts, if he's available, would be an interesting option in CF. His defense was lousy last year, but he'd been a good CFer every year up until then, so I have a feeling he could bounce back. And he was a solid hitter last year. The only thing that would worry me about Roberts is that Torre might lead him off.

Roberts would be a good fit. Then we have 4 outfielders. Giles (?),Matsui, Sheff,and Roberts.

Certainly not going to win any GG's with them but a definate upgrade offensively/defensively. Also fills our DH need.

Probably a pipe dream at this point, I couldn't imagine why they would trade him or what it would cost to acquire.
I think this offseason is about free agent signings, not that much buzz on trades.
The FO reluctance to trade young, inexpensive talent seems to be the order of the day.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-19-05, 02:08 PM
why does everyone think bubba can hit .250? His career numbers show that is asking too much of him.

JDPNYY
11-19-05, 02:10 PM
why does everyone think bubba can hit .250? His career numbers show that is asking too much of him.

C'mon now. He does have those 36 hits.

27IsNext
11-19-05, 02:24 PM
Watch Giles be pissed off with all these Yankee people calling him, and decided to sign elsewhere.

He's not coming here anyway. This is all a big ploy by him and his agent to drive up his price.

There are gonna be a lot of broken hearts on this forum when out of nowhere he signs with another team. Just wanna give you guys a heads-up so maybe we can avoid a NYYFans meltdown.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 02:33 PM
An outfield of Matsui, Sheff and Giles will come back and haunt the Yanks in the post season. Weaknesses usually do.

If the Yanks do get him (i'd like his bat) I hope it's as a corner OF, in a rotation where he'll also share DH duties with either Sheff or Matsui. The Yanks need a proven, reliable, speedy CF out there with good range, and Matsui or Giles aren't the answers.

AJW
11-19-05, 02:34 PM
He's not coming here anyway. This is all a big ploy by him and his agent to drive up his price.

There are gonna be a lot of broken hearts on this forum when out of nowhere he signs with another team. Just wanna give you guys a heads-up so maybe we can avoid a NYYFans meltdown.

I agree. I don't think Giles is coming to the Yankees. I think he is going to the Cardinals to replace Walker.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 02:38 PM
He's not coming here anyway. This is all a big ploy by him and his agent to drive up his price.

There are gonna be a lot of broken hearts on this forum when out of nowhere he signs with another team. Just wanna give you guys a heads-up so maybe we can avoid a NYYFans meltdown.

I tend to agree. He's a seasoned vet (actually, 35 is beyond "seasoned") who never wanted to play in NY and could get good money elsewhere. The ONLY way he comes here is if there is no demand and it's his last resort to pick up a good paycheck.

Mattpat11
11-19-05, 02:43 PM
I agree. I don't think Giles is coming to the Yankees. I think he is going to the Cardinals to replace Walker. we're ................ed if he doesn't come here. We'd still be out a center fielder and the options are shrinking fast (and no, Bubba Crosby is not a legitimate option). Hopefully he doesn't string us along past where we can sign Jones.

27IsNext
11-19-05, 02:46 PM
we're ................ed if he doesn't come here. We'd still be out a center fielder and the options are shrinking fast (and no, Bubba Crosby is not a legitimate option). Hopefully he doesn't string us along past where we can sign Jones.

I disagree. Guys like Wilkerson or even Milton Bradley could be had cheap. MAYBE Rowand could too, if we could get a third team involved that doesn't demand the moon. I would also look into trading Sheffield to the Cubs for Matt Murton and Rich Hill.

Kulish29
11-19-05, 02:48 PM
I agree. I don't think Giles is coming to the Yankees. I think he is going to the Cardinals to replace Walker.

Really? Even though the Cards called him and said they're focusing on pitching right now?

Sam18
11-19-05, 02:50 PM
I really love how some just KNOW that Giles isn't coming here.

StatenIslandYankee
11-19-05, 03:16 PM
I agree. I don't think Giles is coming to the Yankees. I think he is going to the Cardinals to replace Walker.
That's what I think

noneckwilliams
11-19-05, 03:21 PM
An outfield of Matsui, Sheff and Giles will come back and haunt the Yanks in the post season. Weaknesses usually do.

.

Yep. Can't hide a rotten defensive OF. We tried that already.

Sam18
11-19-05, 03:31 PM
Yep. Can't hide a rotten defensive OF. We tried that already.

Sheff will be DH if Giles is signed.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-19-05, 03:47 PM
Sheff will be DH if Giles is signed.

I doubt it. If Giles is signed, you'll see the Matsui/Giles/Sheffield outfield, with Bubba coming off the bench as a late defensive replacement, and possibly at that point, Giles moves to right field and Sheffield takes a seat.

noneckwilliams
11-19-05, 03:48 PM
Sheff will be DH if Giles is signed.


I hope you're not assuming Crosby will get any significant time in CF because he won't. I don't think Crosby has even gotten enuf playing time to prove he can be a good CFer and we know he can't hit. This Crosby scenario is a pipe dream. If the Yankees signed Giles (assuming they don't acquire another guy to play CF) it will Giles CF, Matsui LF and Shef RF pretty much every day (remember Giambi will probably have to DH quite a bit). This OF is worse than last year's when you consider that each one of these guys will be a year older and most likely regressing from the less than GG caliber that they already are.

Of course they could still pursue a true CFer even if they do sign Giles which would be great as far as I'm concerned.

The two best things about signing Giles (aside from what he brings to the offense) from my perspective are:
#1 It would likely put the kibosh on whatever designs the Yankees have on Damon. I hate Damon and will not root for the guy regardless of what laundry he wears.
#2 They will have the luxury of ignoring Shef's inevitable contract discontent and can let him walk and still go into 2007 with 2 productive corner OFers.

IMO the Yankees need to acquire not one but two OFers this winter. I'll be fine with Giles if they can land a proven quality defensive OFer (not named Damon) as well.

Just bringing in Giles and having Bubba plus various flotsam and jetsom as 4 and 5 will once again leave the NYY with among the worst defensive OFs in the game.

Sam18
11-19-05, 03:55 PM
I hope you're not assuming Crosby will get any significant time in CF because he won't. I don't think Crosby has even gotten enuf playing time to prove he can be a good CFer and we know he can't hit. This Crosby scenario is a pipe dream. If the Yankees signed Giles (assuming they don't acquire another guy to play CF) it will Giles CF, Matsui LF and Shef RF pretty much every day (remember Giambi will probably have to DH quite a bit). This OF is worse than last year's when you consider that each one of these guys will be a year older and most likely regressing from the less than GG caliber that they already are.

Of course they could still pursue a true CFer even if they do sign Giles which would be great as far as I'm concerned.

The two best things about signing Giles (aside from what he brings to the offense) from my perspective are:
#1 It would likely put the kibosh on whatever designs the Yankees have on Damon. I hate Damon and will not root for the guy regardless of what laundry he wears.
#2 They will have the luxury of ignoring Shef's inevitable contract discontent and can let him walk and still go into 2007 with 2 productive corner OFers.

IMO the Yankees need to acquire not one but two OFers this winter. I'll be fine with Giles if they can land a proven quality defensive OFer (not named Damon) as well.

Just bringing in Giles and having Bubba plus various flotsam and jetsom as 4 and 5 will once again leave the NYY with among the worst defensive OFs in the game.

How will an OF of Matsui/Giles/Sheff be worse than last year's?

ring403
11-19-05, 04:08 PM
An outfield of Matsui, Sheff and Giles will come back and haunt the Yanks in the post season. Weaknesses usually do.

If the Yanks do get him (i'd like his bat) I hope it's as a corner OF, in a rotation where he'll also share DH duties with either Sheff or Matsui. The Yanks need a proven, reliable, speedy CF out there with good range, and Matsui or Giles aren't the answers.
What method are you using to determine that Giles has insufficient range and speed to play CF?

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 04:09 PM
How will an OF of Matsui/Giles/Sheff be worse than last year's?

Comparing Giles to Bernie, Giles gets a better jump on the ball off of the bat and has a better arm. Bernie, as bad as his range has become is speedier than Giles and could get to the balls in the gap more quickly. As for comparing Giles with Bubba, defensively, Giles doesn't come close, and his only advantage over Bubba may be his arm.

With an OF of Matsui, Giles and Sheff, the Yanks have absolutely no range in the OF. None. Zilch. Balls hit to the gap not only won't be caught, but with their lack of speed, runners will take an extra base or two and of course more runs will be scored against them.

A natural CF, with above average range and speed only serves to make Sheff and Matsui better at their positions. Giles won't provide that. As for Matsui in CF, he has no range and lumbers to every ball hit to him.

This set-up will KILL the Yanks in a playoff series where teams always seem to take advantage of such flaws.

Sam18
11-19-05, 04:14 PM
Comparing Giles to Bernie, Giles gets a better jump on the ball off of the bat and has a better arm. Bernie, as bad as his range has become is speedier than Giles and could get to the balls in the gap more quickly. As for comparing Giles with Bubba, defensively, Giles doesn't come close, and his only advantage over Bubba may be his arm.

With an OF of Matsui, Giles and Sheff, the Yanks have absolutely no range in the OF. None. Zilch. Balls hit to the gap not only won't be caught, but with their lack of speed, runners will take an extra base or two and of course more runs will be scored against them.

A natural CF, with above average range and speed only serves to make Sheff and Matsui better at their positions. Giles won't provide that. As for Matsui in CF, he has no range and lumbers to every ball hit to him.

This set-up will KILL the Yanks in a playoff series where teams always seem to take advantage of such flaws.

You really think Bernie was better than Giles would be in center?

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 04:16 PM
Comparing Giles to Bernie, Giles gets a better jump on the ball off of the bat and has a better arm. Bernie, as bad as his range has become is speedier than Giles and could get to the balls in the gap more quickly. As for comparing Giles with Bubba, defensively, Giles doesn't come close, and his only advantage over Bubba may be his arm.

With an OF of Matsui, Giles and Sheff, the Yanks have absolutely no range in the OF. None. Zilch. Balls hit to the gap not only won't be caught, but with their lack of speed, runners will take an extra base or two and of course more runs will be scored against them.

A natural CF, with above average range and speed only serves to make Sheff and Matsui better at their positions. Giles won't provide that. As for Matsui in CF, he has no range and lumbers to every ball hit to him.

This set-up will KILL the Yanks in a playoff series where teams always seem to take advantage of such flaws.

Giles would be a much better CFer than Bernie was this year.

I'm curious, why does it help the team more to have an above-average defensive CFer with a below-average bat than to have a below-average defensive CFer with a fantastic bat?

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 04:17 PM
What method are you using to determine that Giles has insufficient range and speed to play CF?

Let's compare Giles to a player we are familiar with to get a better understanding. Matsui has a .894 ZR compared to Giles's .878 in center, which is scary in itself. Compare that to a Torii Hunter, a natural CF whose ZR is .901.

It's also no secret that Giles isn't a speedster, so how can that help him with liners hit to the gap, even if he does get a good jump on the ball? Let's not forget his advancing years. He's only going to get slower.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 04:18 PM
You really think Bernie was better than Giles would be in center?

Better speed. Giles gets a better jump. At best, it's a wash, which isn't very promising.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 04:21 PM
Giles would be a much better CFer than Bernie was this year.

I'm curious, why does it help the team more to have an above-average defensive CFer with a below-average bat than to have a below-average defensive CFer with a fantastic bat?

On a team that needs hitting, I might agree with you to an extent but this doesn’t seem to be a glaring problem on this Yankee team. But, when the Yankees flaws are defense, particularly in the outfield, with their current relievers and with starting pitchers like Pavano and Wang, who aren't K artists, defense is of utmost importance

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 04:26 PM
Giles would be a much better CFer than Bernie was this year.

I'm curious, why does it help the team more to have an above-average defensive CFer with a below-average bat than to have a below-average defensive CFer with a fantastic bat?

Also, a better CF makes the corner OF's that much better defensively, for they can field their positions and not be as concerned with their lack of range, knowing th CF will cover for them. So, in effect, you've improved the team in 3 positions.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 04:28 PM
Probably a pipe dream at this point, I couldn't imagine why they would trade him or what it would cost to acquire.

The Padres just acquired Mike Cameron, and intend to play him in CF.

Speaking of pipe dreams, I just fantasized about the possibility of trading Sheffield to San Diego to replace Giles, and in return, getting Roberts, Ryan Klesko, and George Kottaras. Taking Klesko would give us a player who can play LF, RF, and 1B, which would allow rest to Matsui, Giles, and Giambi, and also would defray some of the cost to them in taking on Sheffield's contract. Roberts can play CF and bat ninth respectably, and Kottaras is a solid minor league catcher. I haven't worked out the details, and it might be a hard sell to San Diego, and I don't know what else it would take from our standpoint, but its something to think about.

highheat2014
11-19-05, 04:29 PM
Giles in CF would kill the Yankees in the long-run. At these stages of their careers, the Yankees would be better off having Giles in the short RF w/ Sheffield DHing, at least vs. RHP which covers around 110 games. Sheffield simply cannot play the field anymore for a full season. Combined with his lack of range, he is extremely lazy. You can say the same thing about Manny, but he gets bailed out by the Monster. If the Yankees only have to put Sheffield in the field for 50 games, they'll be much better even with Crosby's no-bat in the lineup for 110 games.

Sam18
11-19-05, 04:29 PM
On a team that needs hitting, I might agree with you to an extent but this doesn’t seem to be a glaring problem on this Yankee team. But, when the Yankees flaws are defense, particularly in the outfield, with their current relievers and with starting pitchers like Pavano and Wang, who aren't K artists, defense is of utmost importance

Dooley, Pavano and Wang are both groundball pitchers. Having Giles in CF gives us more runs overall than having a medicore hitter who plays great CF.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 04:32 PM
On a team that needs hitting, I might agree with you to an extent but this doesn’t seem to be a glaring problem on this Yankee team. But, when the Yankees flaws are defense, particularly in the outfield, with their current relievers and with starting pitchers like Pavano and Wang, who aren't K artists, defense is of utmost importance

Pavano and Wang are both ground ball pitchers, for starters.

Giles will produce more runs above average offensively than he will give up defensively above average by a much larger margin than any of the other CF options. Thus, he will make the team better than any of them will.


Also, a better CF makes the corner OF's that much better defensively, for they can field their positions and not be as concerned with their lack of range, knowing th CF will cover for them. So, in effect, you've improved the team in 3 positions.

No, thats really not true. Matsui and Sheffield aren't going to get to more balls because they have a better CFer between them. Either balls are going to be caught, or they aren't. And Giles certainly isn't going to be missing out on balls that Bernie was getting to, because Bernie isn't any faster than him, and he was a very poor fundamental outfielder.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 04:33 PM
Dooley, Pavano and Wang are both groundball pitchers. Having Giles in CF gives us more runs overall than having a medicore hitter who plays great CF.

So that means no balls will be hit to the outfield? What about when RJ, Wright, Mussina, Sturtze, Gordon (?) etc. pitches? The Yanks are setting themselves up for failure. Mark my words if they go into the playoffs with that trio.

noneckwilliams
11-19-05, 04:34 PM
Also, a better CF makes the corner OF's that much better defensively, for they can field their positions and not be as concerned with their lack of range, knowing th CF will cover for them. So, in effect, you've improved the team in 3 positions.

The impact of a top flight Cf on this team and pitching staff would be more valuable than the impact of another (albeit terrific) bat.


How will an OF of Matsui/Giles/Sheff be worse than last year's?

As I wrote, they’ll all be year older and at ages in which they are not likely to improve their defensive skills. We know Shef is bad and getting worse. I guess Matsui will be a wash from last year. As for Giles he'll be 35 and far as I can tell he’s only played 1 ½ seasons of regular CF (99-00) in his career and has played less than 100 games there since 2000.

If not worse they will be only mariginally better defensively and still leave themselves with perhaps the worst defensive OF in MLB. Does this not concern you at all?

I'm warming somewhat to Giles (for the 2 reasons I gave above) but the Yankees really need to get some younger legs in that OF.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 04:36 PM
So that means no balls will be hit to the outfield? What about when RJ, Wright, Mussina, Sturtze, Gordon (?) etc. pitches? The Yanks are setting themselves up for failure. Mark my words if they go into the playoffs with that trio.

Nice try, but you used Wang and Pavano as examples of pitchers who would be hurt by a poor defensive outfield. But they don't give up more balls to the outfield than anybody else. Wang, especially, probably gives up significantly less balls to the outfield than the average pitcher. RJ, Mussina, Wright, and all the other pitchers will give up more hits than they would give up if Giles weren't the CFer, yes, thats true. But the runs that result from those hits will be far fewer than the added runs Giles produces offensively over the other CF options.

Sam18
11-19-05, 04:37 PM
So that means no balls will be hit to the outfield? What about when RJ, Wright, Mussina, Sturtze, Gordon (?) etc. pitches? The Yanks are setting themselves up for failure. Mark my words if they go into the playoffs with that trio.

They probably won't go into the playoffs with that trio but they're still an improvement over last year's OF.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 04:38 PM
The impact of a top flight Cf on this team and pitching staff would be more valuable than the impact of another (albeit terrific) bat.

This has been proven over and over again to not be true. The point of baseball is to score more runs than your opponent, and Giles is a more effective weapon for doing this than a "top-flight CFer" who is a significant downgrade offensively. You'd be giving up more in offense than you'd be gaining in defense, and that is a net loss, thus making the team worse.

Sam18
11-19-05, 04:39 PM
If not worse they will be only mariginally better defensively and still leave themselves with perhaps the worse defensive OF in MLB. Does this not concern you at all?


They'll make up for that and more with their offense, something Bernie couldn't do last year.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 04:41 PM
Pavano and Wang are both ground ball pitchers, for starters.

Giles will produce more runs above average offensively than he will give up defensively above average by a much larger margin than any of the other CF options. Thus, he will make the team better than any of them will.

As I said to Sam, balls will still be hit to the OF's and there ARE other pitchers on this team other than the two I named. As for his offense overcoming any shortcomings on the field, have you not seen his production decline over the past few years? I don't care if he's playing in SD, it's dramatic. If you want to use SD as an example, he's even hit 8 fewer homers in 2005 than he did in 2004. He's not going to get any better. That said, YES, I'd still want him - as a DH/corner OF.




No, thats really not true. Matsui and Sheffield aren't going to get to more balls because they have a better CFer between them. Either balls are going to be caught, or they aren't. And Giles certainly isn't going to be missing out on balls that Bernie was getting to, because Bernie isn't any faster than him, and he was a very poor fundamental outfielder.

If the Yanks had a CF with above avg range, Matsui and Sheff can play within themselves. The playing field they need to cover becomes that much shorter, hence creating the *illusion* that there is a better OF all around (if we go along the lines that they don't actually improve). The bottom line is more balls will be caught with a Hunter or EVEN a Jones (one of your suggestions that I'm starting to like better) than it will with Giles there.

Bernie is faster afoot. There's no question. Giles gets a better jump and has a better arm. It's almost a wash to me, which isn't saying much.

noneckwilliams
11-19-05, 04:45 PM
This has been proven over and over again to not be true. The point of baseball is to score more runs than your opponent, and Giles is a more effective weapon for doing this than a "top-flight CFer" who is a significant downgrade offensively. You'd be giving up more in offense than you'd be gaining in defense, and that is a net loss, thus making the team worse.

I respect the fact that you probably have some kind of study or number that "proves" this - but every situation is different and we are talking about an already potent lineup. I don't believe your statement is true for the 2006 NYY. This team is simply not going to win the WS unless they siginificantly upgrade their OF defense. After watching last season I can't believe people want to go into 2006 with an OLDER OF.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 04:46 PM
As I said to Sam, balls will still be hit to the OF's and there ARE other pitchers on this team other than the two I named. As for his offense overcoming any shortcoming on the field, have you not seen his production decline over the past few years? I don't care if he's playing in SD, it's dramatic. Id you want to use SD as an example, he's even hit 8 fewer homers in 2005 than he did in 2004. He's not going to get any better. That said, YES, I'd still want him - as a DH/corner OF.

Giles, hitting in the most extreme pitcher's park in baseball last year, had a .795 OPS. On the road, he had a 1.008 OPS. Getting out of Petco will make him an elite hitter. I already addressed your other point.


If the Yanks had a CF with above avg range, Matsui and Sheff can play within themselves. The playing field they need to cover becomes that much shorter, hence creating the illusion that there is a better OF all around. The bottom line is more balls will be caught with a Hunter or EVEN a Jones (one of your suggestions that I'm starting to like better) than it will with Giles there.

Is it your contention that the knowledge of a better CF will allow Matsui and Sheffield to get to more balls? I'm afraid that simply doesn't make sense.


Bernie is faster afoot. There's no question. Giles gets a better jump and has a better arm. It's almost a wash to me, which isn't saying much.

Well, fortunately, for us, there are means of measuring defensive prowess that are more accurate than your guesswork. I doubt you've spent any significant amount of time watching Giles, and MGL, who is probably the best analyst of defensive statistics, said that there were no statistical indications that Giles would be unable to be average to above average in CF next year. Bernie has slowed dramatically, and is not faster than Giles, and their defense certainly is not a wash.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 04:47 PM
I respect the fact that you probably have some kind of study or number that "proves" this - but every situation is different and we are talking about an already potent lineup. I don't believe your statement is true for the 2006 NYY. This team is simply not going to win the WS unless they siginificantly upgrade their OF defense. After watching last season I can't believe people want to go into 2006 with an OLDER OF.

Why are runs saved on defense more valuable than runs scored on offense?

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 04:49 PM
Nice try, but you used Wang and Pavano as examples of pitchers who would be hurt by a poor defensive outfield. But they don't give up more balls to the outfield than anybody else. Wang, especially, probably gives up significantly less balls to the outfield than the average pitcher. RJ, Mussina, Wright, and all the other pitchers will give up more hits than they would give up if Giles weren't the CFer, yes, thats true. But the runs that result from those hits will be far fewer than the added runs Giles produces offensively over the other CF options.

So because I initially named Wang and Pavano my belief has no valididaty and I'm no longer allowed to incorporate the rest of the staff? I'm conceding that both are groundball pitchers, but that doesn't mean all balls will be hit on the ground. Nor does it mean that they are the only two pitchers the Yanks have. Maybe I could have used a better example, but that doesn't take away from the fact that a better CF would naturally improve the Yanks defense.

As far as how many runs Giles will produce vs. what he gives up on the field is nonsense. I look at it more situationally. If Giles hits 66 homers over the course of the year, that means nothing in game 7, 9th inning of the ALCS with the tying run on first and a ball hit to the gap.

Sam18
11-19-05, 04:55 PM
As far as how many runs Giles will produce vs. what he gives up on the field is nonsense. I look at it more situationally. If Giles hits 66 homers over the course of the year, that means nothing in game 7, 9th inning of the ALCS with the tying run on first and a ball hit to the gap.


Dooley I know you're not gonna agree with this but maybe the runner on first isn't the tying run because we're leading by two on a solo shot by Giles in the 8th? :dunno:

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 04:57 PM
So because I initially named Wang and Pavano my belief has no valididaty and I'm no longer allowed to incorporate the rest of the staff? I'm conceding that both are groundball pitchers, but that doesn't mean all balls will be hit on the ground. Nor does it mean that they are the only two pitchers the Yanks have. Maybe I could have used a better example, but that doesn't take away from the fact that a better CF would naturally improve the Yanks defense.

As far as how many runs Giles will produce vs. what he gives up on the field is nonsense. I look at it more situationally. If Giles hits 66 homers over the course of the year, that means nothing in game 7, 9th inning of the ALCS with the tying run on first and a ball hit to the gap.

I already addressed the issue of flyballs. Obviously there would be more balls hit in than with a better defensive CFer. But thats not the only impact Giles has.

And the fact that Aaron Rowand can get to that ball in the gap doesn't help us in game 7 in the bottom of the ninth when we need a big hit. The point is, Giles substantially decreases the chance you will need a game-saving defensive play. Having a great defensive CFer would be nice, and if it can be done affordably, I'm all for it. In fact, I've made a number of suggestions for improving our CF defense, because my ideal situation would be to put Giles in RF and have Sheffield DHing about half the time, with the DH spot rotating to keep Giles, Sheffield, Matsui, and Giambi fresh. But thats not the point. The point is that Giles skill set is worth more marginal runs than Rowand's, Wells', Pierre's, Crosby's, or any other CF option we've looked at. Those extra runs make us more likely to win baseball games, including game 7 of the ALCS.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 05:03 PM
Is it your contention that the knowledge of a better CF will allow Matsui and Sheffield to get to more balls? I'm afraid that simply doesn't make sense.



I don't know if you've played baseball, but I have up until college (till a knee injury got the best of me), and have played a number of positions, including the OF. If I know that I there is a player with inferior range at my side, I'm already anticipating that it's very possible that I may need to cover for him, even if it's somewhat out of my range, if a ball is hit to a certain spot. Consequently I am not playing within myself, which is an overused cliché, but makes a hell of a lot of sense if you play the game. If there was a superior outfielder to my left or right, then that no longer becomes a concern of mine, and I can concentrate on my portion of the field - "my little world" with greater success.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 05:04 PM
I don't know if you've played baseball, but I have up until college (till a knee injury got the best of me), and have played a number of positions, including the OF. If I know that I there is a player with inferior range at my side, I'm already anticipating that I might have to attempt to cover for him, even if it's somewhat out of my range, if the ball is hit to a certain spot. Consequently I am not playing within myself, which is an overused cliché, but makes a hell of a lot of sense if you play the game. If there was a superior outfielder to my left or right, then that no longer becomes a concern of mine, and I can concentrate on my portion of the field - "my little world" with greater success.

Well, then I'll sign Giles, and tell Matsui and Sheffield to not do this, and then everything should be fine.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 05:05 PM
Dooley I know you're not gonna agree with this but maybe the runner on first isn't the tying run because we're leading by two on a solo shot by Giles in the 8th? :dunno:

And maybe Giles went 0-4 that game. Now who do you want the ball to be hit to? Hunter or Giles. Again, this is situational where it matters none what you did the season or even in that game.

ring403
11-19-05, 05:11 PM
...MGL, who is probably the best analyst of defensive statistics, said that there were no statistical indications that Giles would be unable to be average to above average in CF next year. Bernie has slowed dramatically, and is not faster than Giles, and their defense certainly is not a wash.
If Giles was merely league average in CF for the Yankees, the offense that he brings to the table is so superior to that of any other available candidate, that the net gain to the team would be enormous. It takes a hell of alot of web gems to make up the difference of 200 or more OPS points that exist between Giles some of the contenders.

noneckwilliams
11-19-05, 05:11 PM
Why are runs saved on defense more valuable than runs scored on offense?

All I can say is that is the goal is to win the WS, what they've been doing ain't workin'. And acquiring Giles without bringing in a good defensive CF who can be an anchor of the OF defense seems to be more of the same. If the Yankees tried to acquire Scott Brosius today this board would be awash with howls of protest.

Can you even entertain the notion that different teams need to improve themselves in different areas? One team may need to add a bat. One team may need to shore up the defense.

noneckwilliams
11-19-05, 05:17 PM
If Giles was merely league average in CF for the Yankees, the offense that he brings to the table is so superior to that of any other available candidate, that the net gain to the team would be enormous. It takes a hell of alot of web gems to make up the difference of 200 or more OPS points that exist between Giles some of the contenders.


Is he though? I looked him up an retrosheet and it seems he's only played regular CF 1 1/2 seasons in his career and less than 100 games there since 2000. What are people gonna say when it turns out he's not much better than Bernie?

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 05:33 PM
If Giles was merely league average in CF for the Yankees, the offense that he brings to the table is so superior to that of any other available candidate, that the net gain to the team would be enormous. It takes a hell of alot of web gems to make up the difference of 200 or more OPS points that exist between Giles some of the contenders.

His high OPS/OBP is as a direct result, to a large extent, of 119 walks - even more than Giambi. It indicates he has a good eye, but if he doesn't get the same calls in the AL, he's screwed offensively. His production drop and age can't just be dismissed without any concern and can't be solely attributed to the park he plays in. Do you think Barry Bonds or even A-Rod's homerun production would be halved in SD? Only players with warning track power drop like that.

His homers have even dropped from 23 to 15 in his 2 years in SD.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 05:34 PM
And maybe Giles went 0-4 that game. Now who do you want the ball to be hit to? Hunter or Giles. Again, this is situational where it matters none what you did the season or even in that game.

Dooley, no offense, but your argument sucks. A team cannot possibly construct itself for every hypothetical situation it can get itself into. Yes, in that situation, I'd rather have Hunter than Giles chasing the ball down. The reason is because they'd be more likely to catch the ball. But Giles is more likely to produce the necessary offense to avoid that situation. You see, when building a team, the goal should be to create the team that is going to have the largest differential in the runs scored versus runs allowed. That is how you make your team most likely to win. There are no guarantees. This Yankee team with Hunter in CF next will likely win fewer games than it would with Giles in CF. That is because the advantage that Giles enjoys offensively is worth more runs than the advantage that Hunter has defensively. As a result, I'd rather have Giles. If you can't understand this concept, then there is no point in us continuing this discussion.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 05:39 PM
Dooley, no offense, but your argument sucks. A team cannot possibly construct itself for every hypothetical situation it can get itself into. Yes, in that situation, I'd rather have Hunter than Giles chasing the ball down. The reason is because they'd be more likely to catch the ball. But Giles is more likely to produce the necessary offense to avoid that situation. You see, when building a team, the goal should be to create the team that is going to have the largest differential in the runs scored versus runs allowed. That is how you make your team most likely to win. There are no guarantees. This Yankee team with Hunter in CF next will likely win fewer games than it would with Giles in CF. That is because the advantage that Giles enjoys offensively is worth more runs than the advantage that Hunter has defensively. As a result, I'd rather have Giles. If you can't understand this concept, then there is no point in us continuing this discussion.

Yor argument is weakened considerably because it appears that you're the only one on this planet who thinks that the Yankee's offense needs to be addressed or that there is this dire need for an offensive CF whose outfield play is limited.

Two years of 13-12 comeback wins should tell you something about the pitching (starting and relief) and defense on this team and NOT the offense. If it doesn't then there is no point in our continuing this discussion.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 05:50 PM
Can you even entertain the notion that different teams need to improve themselves in different areas? One team may need to add a bat. One team may need to shore up the defense.

He'd have to concede that he lost the argument then.

Huktonfonix
11-19-05, 05:51 PM
Dooley, if yankee games went 14 hours because the opposing pitcher couldn't get 3 outs, we'd have too much offense. Until that time comes, adding a bat like Giles' will always make the team better.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 05:56 PM
Yor argument is weakened considerably because it appears that you're the only one on this planet who thinks that the Yankee's offense needs to be addressed or that there is this dire need for an offensive CF whose outfield play is limited.

Two years of 13-12 comeback wins should tell you something about the pitching (starting and relief) and defense on this team and NOT the offense. If it doesn't then there is no point in our continuing this discussion.

I'm all for improving the relief pitching. Last year, CF was a lost cause, offensively and defensively. The most effective way to improve CF is to add Brian Giles, because the total sum of his offensive and defensive contributions are more than the sum of the offensive and defensive contributions of any other player available to play CF. If we have the option of acquiring Giles and playing him in RF while DHing Sheffield, and acquiring a different player for CF, like Wilkerson or Dave Roberts, I would like that even better. But if we're talking about one player, that player should be Giles. Is there a maximum amount of runs that can be scored? At some point, do they just shut down, and lose effectiveness? I'm not aware that either of these things are the case, so I must ask, why do you consider saving runs on defense to have so much more value than scoring them on offense?

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 05:58 PM
All I can say is that is the goal is to win the WS, what they've been doing ain't workin'. And acquiring Giles without bringing in a good defensive CF who can be an anchor of the OF defense seems to be more of the same. If the Yankees tried to acquire Scott Brosius today this board would be awash with howls of protest.

Can you even entertain the notion that different teams need to improve themselves in different areas? One team may need to add a bat. One team may need to shore up the defense.

Absolutely some teams have different needs. This team suffered from a huge lack of production, offensively and defensively, in CF last year. The single move that could best remedy that problem is to replace Bernie Williams with Brian Giles.

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 05:59 PM
Dooley, if yankee games went 14 hours because the opposing pitcher couldn't get 3 outs, we'd have too much offense. Until that time comes, adding a bat like Giles' will always make the team better.

But it's not this teams pressing need. Maybe it's another team's need, but not the Yanks. If given a choice of improving the Yankee OF defense or adding another bat the decision HAS to be for defense considering that this team already generates enough offense.

It would be nice to have all 9 players hit 30 homers and drive in 100, but that doesn't guaranty anything if you have poor defense and piss poor relief pitching.

I Love Wang
11-19-05, 06:02 PM
But it's not this teams pressing need. Maybe it's another team's need, but not the Yanks. If given a choice of improving the Yankee OF defense or adding another bat the decision HAS to be for defense considering that this team already generates enough offense.

It would be nice to have all 9 players hit 30 homers and drive in 100, but that doesn't guaranty anything if you have poor defense and piss poor relief pitching.

Please answer: why are runs allowed on defense more valuable than runs produced on offense?

Dooley Womack
11-19-05, 06:03 PM
Absolutely some teams have different needs. This team suffered from a huge lack of production, offensively and defensively, in CF last year. The single move that could best remedy that problem is to replace Bernie Williams with Brian Giles.

BINGO. There WAS poor offensive production in CF last year. No question. But, how did this affect the team as a whole? It appeared that hiding Bubba in the 9 hole, or Bernie in the 6, though not ideal, didn't stop this team from scoring 6-7 runs. The problem was stopping the other team from scoring that many or more with our pitching AND poor OF defense.

Jace
11-19-05, 06:04 PM
But it's not this teams pressing need. Maybe it's another team's need, but not the Yanks. If given a choice of improving the Yankee OF defense or adding another bat the decision HAS to be for defense considering that this team already generates enough offense.

It would be nice to have all 9 players hit 30 homers and drive in 100, but that doesn't guaranty anything if you have poor defense and piss poor relief pitching.

If you had solid starting pitching (like we should), poor defense, piss poor relief pitching with the exception of Mariano Rivera, and 9 guys who hit 30 HR and 100 RBIs (plus at least another 50-75 from the bench), that team would win about 105 games and have a great chance of winning in it all.