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TheBamTino24
06-16-05, 10:36 AM
Nick Johnson, 26 years old (Vasquez Deal):
65G, 228AB, .325, 8HR, 39RBI, 46SO, 40BB, 38R, .442OB%, 3/9SB

Alfonso Soriano, 29 years old (A-Rod Deal)
60G, 248AB, .294, 18HR, 44RBI, 48SO, 18BB, 51R, .332OB%, 8/8SB

Personally, I was one of those people who thought that these two players should have been "untouchables." I wanted Soriano to be the successor to Bernie Williams in CF.

In any event, glad to see these two are reaching their potential. Seems they both could've solved huge needs for the Yankees moving forward - 1B and OF - and youth! Both had that Yankee Pedigree and both produced in the playoffs despite how people wanted to run Soriano out of town after 2003.

Bub
06-16-05, 10:42 AM
We should not have moved Nick Johnson, despite the continuing injuries. At the time, it seemed like a good gamble, especially if Vasquez proved to be a great pitcher. As for Soriano, I still think he's useless in the postseason because great pitchers own him and he can't lay off bad pitches.

JDPNYY
06-16-05, 10:42 AM
Are they Yankees again?

Did I miss something?

ojo
06-16-05, 10:43 AM
nick johnson is the real painful to see go.

soriano is great to have on a fantasy team, but any competent pitcher can own him. not so with nick the stick.

chanman7483
06-16-05, 10:43 AM
The Former Yankee Performance thread :

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=81195

Little Big Sheff
06-16-05, 10:54 AM
In case you haven't noticed, the guy we traded Soriano for is posting the following numbers :

.325 / .433 / .616 / 1.049, with 19 HR and 56 RBI's.

He leads the league in HR's, and RBI's, and is top three in OBP, SLG and OPS. And Texas is paying a good chunk of his salary.

So, what was your point about that deal again?

sandman84
06-16-05, 11:16 AM
Soriano never wanted to play CF, he hated that idea. As it was he already had been moved from SS. I loved Sori, but he was not going to be our next CFer.

Hemingway
06-16-05, 11:30 AM
Soriano's OBP is 22nd among major league SECOND BASEMEN. His offensive value is overrated thanks to his huuuge slugging percentage. In Texas, they need more player like A-Rod than they do players like Soriano, one run doesn't mean nearly as much down there.

If you're trying to break team homerun marks, by all means, play Soriano at 2nd, if you're trying to win games, there are probably ten better choices making half the dough Soriano is.

DontHateOnNumber2
06-16-05, 11:32 AM
Johnson is really blowing up out there in Washington and Soriano is hitting big although it's in Arlington. Soriano sounded good in CF years ago but the problem was he didn't want to switch his position. Why do you think he's playing second for Texas?

rightfielder21
06-16-05, 11:34 AM
Johnson is the one they should have never let get away...

sandman84
06-16-05, 11:38 AM
Nobody was saying we should have kept Johnson when Javy was nasty last years first half. The guy was laways hurt and didnt really do anything while here that would have made anyone say, he should never be touched. Hes playing good that he finally healthy, but how long is that going to last?

Jasbro
06-16-05, 11:44 AM
The problem with Nick is that he is a walking broken bone. He is a really nice player, but he needs to be more than a 100 - 120 game player.

wileedog
06-16-05, 11:49 AM
I would love to have Johnson back, I really would.

But that trade was the right deal at the right time. Just didn't work out for whatever reasons.

Sori I don't miss. The fact that we got one of the best hitters in baseball out of the deal is just gravy.

Bub
06-16-05, 11:59 AM
The problem with Nick is that he is a walking broken bone. He is a really nice player, but he needs to be more than a 100 - 120 game player.He could be that this year. Mattingly predicted that he'd someday win a batting title. That could be this year too.

yanks710
06-16-05, 12:04 PM
We all knew these guy were talented and I'm happy for them

TheBamTino24
06-16-05, 01:44 PM
Yes we got one of the best RH hitters ever in Rodriguez. Was it really that great of an improvement? Soriano was the 2B for two American League Pennant teams (2001 & 2003). Lets remember his 8th inning HR of Curt Schilling would have given us the World Series in 2001.

I still find it bizzare how every team GREATLY improves the year after dumping Alex Rodriguez (Seattle, 2001 and Texas, 2004).

wileedog
06-16-05, 01:47 PM
Yes we got one of the best RH hitters ever in Rodriguez. Was it really that great of an improvement? Soriano was the 2B for two American League Pennant teams (2001 & 2003). Lets remember his 8th inning HR of Curt Schilling would have given us the World Series in 2001.
Lets not forget who holds the major league record for strikeouts in one post-season either.


I still find it bizzare how every team GREATLY improves the year after dumping Alex Rodriguez (Seattle, 2001 and Texas, 2004).
Gee, you're right.

We should cut the one of the top hitters in the game and most-likely first ballot HOFer immediately based upon this mountain of evidence.

TheBamTino24
06-16-05, 01:51 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Don't overreact. I never said cut him or that I was displeased with Rodriguez. Fact of the matter, statistically, it is not that great of a difference. Record wise, we're struggling.

Even you would have to agree it is an oddity that the teams improved while giving away baseball's best player. Not an exact science, just really weird. Texas went from 71-91 to 89-73 and Seattle went from 91-71 to 116-46.

That's +16 and +15 after parting ways with baseball's best player.

Conversely, the Rangers were also 71-91 in 2000 and 73-89 in 2002 (A-Rod's first year). The Yankees were 101-61 in 2003 and the same 101-61 in 2004 (A-Rod's first year).

So that's +2 and 0 when acquiring baseball's best player.

Very, very strange, no?

GraniteYankee
06-16-05, 01:53 PM
Nick Johnson, 26 years old (Vasquez Deal):
65G, 228AB, .325, 8HR, 39RBI, 46SO, 40BB, 38R, .442OB%, 3/9SB

Alfonso Soriano, 29 years old (A-Rod Deal)
60G, 248AB, .294, 18HR, 44RBI, 48SO, 18BB, 51R, .332OB%, 8/8SB

Personally, I was one of those people who thought that these two players should have been "untouchables." I wanted Soriano to be the successor to Bernie Williams in CF.

In any event, glad to see these two are reaching their potential. Seems they both could've solved huge needs for the Yankees moving forward - 1B and OF - and youth! Both had that Yankee Pedigree and both produced in the playoffs despite how people wanted to run Soriano out of town after 2003.

Sorry, can't agree with you here. We received arguably the best player in baseball with the Soriano trade, in addition, the 2003 playoffs watching him SO a zillion times was enough for me. Johnson was injury prone at the time of the trade for Vaz and we had, what we thought at the time anyway, was a highly productive 1b in Giambi - can't kill the FO on these moves.

Jersey Yankee
06-16-05, 01:56 PM
I still find it bizzare how every team GREATLY improves the year after dumping Alex Rodriguez (Seattle, 2001 and Texas, 2004).
Neither has ever been to thw WS, so how much improvement was that?

Seattle had Ichiro in 2001, a year in which A-Rod didn't play.

The Yanks won the AL East and went to the ALCS with Alex Rodriguez. The only ALCS either team has been to after Alex left was Seattle's 2001 ALCS, in which they got trumped 4-1.

Yeah, big improvement.

I'd like to see Alex help us get to the WS. That way, if someone points out that no prior team Alex has left had ever been to the WS, then people can always point out that no team he's left has been to the WS.

Jasbro
06-16-05, 01:59 PM
Yes we got one of the best RH hitters ever in Rodriguez. Was it really that great of an improvement? Soriano was the 2B for two American League Pennant teams (2001 & 2003). Lets remember his 8th inning HR of Curt Schilling would have given us the World Series in 2001.

I still find it bizzare how every team GREATLY improves the year after dumping Alex Rodriguez (Seattle, 2001 and Texas, 2004).

Yes, it IS that great of an improvement.

And regarding your last remark, was shedding ARod the ONLY move those teams made those years? Or were there other moves made in addition that contributed to their resurgence?

Further, just because a team gets better after a player leaves that team does not mean that the team got better BECAUSE the player left that team. Basic logic, my friend.

I had breakfast this morning -- then it rained. But my having breakfast this morning did not cause it to rain. Same thing.

Hitman23
06-16-05, 02:00 PM
I'd still trade A-Rod for Soriano. I liked Sori, alot. but you have to make that trade. It's A-Rod.

Johnson was painfull to see go but we needed pitching and Jason was supposed to be our guy. No one knew we'd be here with the 1st base problems. It's easy to look back now and say "I told you so", but at the time the decision was potentially the better one.

That being said, I am still a fan of both, I stil follow both, and I'm happy they are doing well. :cool:

Dooley Womack
06-16-05, 02:03 PM
Re NJ. Bad trade-actually an awful trade- to get a pitcher who was totally ineffective, but oh well, we can't keep looking back. At the time I thought it was a decent trade, though I was always suspicious of getting a NL pitcher, especially one who pitched in the obscurity of Montreal.

NJ and Rivera (in left) sure would look good in pinstipes now.

A-Rod for Sori is a no-brainer.

wileedog
06-16-05, 02:04 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Don't overreact. I never said cut him or that I was displeased with Rodriguez. Fact of the matter, statistically, it is not that great of a difference. Record wise, we're struggling.

Even you would have to agree it is an oddity that the teams improved while giving away baseball's best player. Not an exact science, just really weird. Texas went from 71-91 to 89-73 and Seattle went from 91-71 to 116-46.

That's +16 and +15 after parting ways with baseball's best player.

Conversely, the Rangers were also 71-91 in 2000 and 73-89 in 2002 (A-Rod's first year). The Yankees were 101-61 in 2003 and the same 101-61 in 2004 (A-Rod's first year).

So that's +2 and 0 when acquiring baseball's best player.

Very, very strange, no?

Seattles Team ERA in 2000 was 4.50. It was 3.54 in 2001.

Texas team ERA went from 5.67 to 4.53 from 2003 to 2004.

Good thing A-Rod wasn't there to f*ck up the pitching staffs anymore.

CaptainThurman
06-16-05, 02:06 PM
For those who say Soriano is owned by good pitchers in the post season, I seem to recall that he homered off Schilling to put the Yankees in position to win the 2001 Series....

I would love to root for the following lineup, which is home grown, younger and more athletic as the one we currently watch, and far less expensive...

C - Posada (and Duncan)
1B - Johnson
2B - Soriano (and Cano)
SS - Jeter (and Guzman)
3B - Lowell
LF - Matsui (or Soriano)
CF - Wily Mo Pena
RF - Juan Rivera
DH - Bernie

SP - Halsey, Wang and Lilly at the back end, at least
RP - Rivera teaching Brazoban how to close

Davios
06-16-05, 02:09 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Don't overreact. I never said cut him or that I was displeased with Rodriguez. Fact of the matter, statistically, it is not that great of a difference. Record wise, we're struggling.

Even you would have to agree it is an oddity that the teams improved while giving away baseball's best player. Not an exact science, just really weird. Texas went from 71-91 to 89-73 and Seattle went from 91-71 to 116-46.

That's +16 and +15 after parting ways with baseball's best player.

Conversely, the Rangers were also 71-91 in 2000 and 73-89 in 2002 (A-Rod's first year). The Yankees were 101-61 in 2003 and the same 101-61 in 2004 (A-Rod's first year).

So that's +2 and 0 when acquiring baseball's best player.

Very, very strange, no?


How are you going to tell me there is not that great of a statistical difference between Arod and Soriano. I'm sorry but you can not flaunt Soriano's homerun against Schilling like it's some sort of amazing achievment and simply allow yourself to conveniently forget the 2003 playoffs when Soriano was lunging after pitches sitting on home plate. He couldn't hit a damn beachball, so let's refrain from the comments of "Every team has improved since Arod left." When I could sit here and comfortably say the Yankees might have won the series if we had Arod.

lem
06-16-05, 02:09 PM
I would love to root for the following lineup, which is home grown, younger and more athletic as the one we currently watch, and far less expensive...

This sure would be an exciting team, what with the years Guzman, Lowell, Juan Rivera and Lilly are having.

yankswn23
06-16-05, 02:11 PM
Doesnt matter Sori will be a Yankee again shortly, he loves playing in NY.

Prickly Pete
06-16-05, 02:14 PM
I had breakfast this morning -- then it rained. But my having breakfast this morning did not cause it to rain.
Did you also eat breakfast during the week of May 6-11?

Hmmmmm......

Davios
06-16-05, 02:14 PM
For those who say Soriano is owned by good pitchers in the post season, I seem to recall that he homered off Schilling to put the Yankees in position to win the 2001 Series....

I would love to root for the following lineup, which is home grown, younger and more athletic as the one we currently watch, and far less expensive...

C - Posada (and Duncan)
1B - Johnson
2B - Soriano (and Cano)
SS - Jeter (and Guzman)
3B - Lowell
LF - Matsui (or Soriano)
CF - Wily Mo Pena
RF - Juan Rivera
DH - Bernie

SP - Halsey, Wang and Lilly at the back end, at least
RP - Rivera teaching Brazoban how to close

Guzman is hitting .199. Juan Rivera is hitting .230 and does not eevn start for the Angels who play Jeff Davanon over him. Mike Lowell is hitting .237 with 3 homeruns. Ted Lilly has an era of 6.47. And Halsey has already gone back to being mediocre with an era of 9 in June. That team you're touting could be 15 -16 games back by now quite easily and then we could hear whining about how the team isn't even competitive.

IncredibleByNature
06-16-05, 02:15 PM
Doesnt matter Sori will be a Yankee again shortly, he loves playing in NY.

W/ Cano playing 2B, where exactly will Sori play?

wileedog
06-16-05, 02:17 PM
For those who say Soriano is owned by good pitchers in the post season, I seem to recall that he homered off Schilling to put the Yankees in position to win the 2001 Series....

Sori's overall post-season numbers: .233/.287/.336.

In 146 post-season ABs he's struck out a whopping 45 times, vs. 8 walks. He has 4 HRs, 1 out of every 36 ABs

One Schilling HR aside, I would very much call Soriano 'owned' by good post-season pitching,

Davios
06-16-05, 02:20 PM
Sori's overall post-season numbers: .233/.287/.336.

In 146 post-season ABs he's struck out a whopping 45 times, vs. 8 walks. He has 4 HRs, 1 out of every 36 ABs

One Schilling HR aside, I would very much call Soriano 'owned' by good post-season pitching,


But it was Schilling, thus it counts as an additional 20 homeruns.

chanman7483
06-16-05, 02:22 PM
I still find it bizzare how every team GREATLY improves the year after dumping Alex Rodriguez (Seattle, 2001 and Texas, 2004).

It's not like the teams suddenly got good out of nowhere...
Seattle- Ichiro came onto the scene and posted the a .350 average and 242 hits. Brett Boone DOUBLED his rbi total from the previous year, up to 141 and he also doubled his home run total. Plus, pitching is what drove them that year.

Texas- Michael Young. Mark Teixiera. Hank Blaylock. Alfonso Soriano. Kevin Mench. They were all a year older from the previous seasons and all made HUGE steps in their development.

Listen, i'm a huge believer in the Ewing Theory myself, but ARod, I don't feel is a candidate for it. Those teams were flat out good.

CTSoxFan
06-16-05, 02:36 PM
For those who say Soriano is owned by good pitchers in the post season, I seem to recall that he homered off Schilling to put the Yankees in position to win the 2001 Series....

Yeah, but haven't we established that Schilling is an overrated drama queen? :D

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-16-05, 03:10 PM
W/ Cano playing 2B, where exactly will Sori play?

He should be a centerfielder. He's got the speed and a great arm but he refuses to move from 2b...

flymick24
06-16-05, 04:23 PM
In case you haven't noticed, the guy we traded Soriano for is posting the following numbers :

.325 / .433 / .616 / 1.049, with 19 HR and 56 RBI's.

He leads the league in HR's, and RBI's, and is top three in OBP, SLG and OPS. And Texas is paying a good chunk of his salary.

So, what was your point about that deal again?

thank you

LuckyLopez
06-16-05, 04:29 PM
Texas team ERA went from 5.67 to 4.53 from 2003 to 2004.
Obviouslly a run difference in ERA IS a major factor. But I don't know how much that stands as a simple bit of reason why the '04 Rangers were so much better than the '03 Rangers. If they had a few pitchers who really stepped up and became something special in that season I would have. But if I remember correctly they had something around 20 different starting pitchers last season. So their pitching was rather inconsistent and really the ERA improvement is just another weird aspect of that team.


Texas- Michael Young. Mark Teixiera. Hank Blaylock. Alfonso Soriano. Kevin Mench. They were all a year older from the previous seasons and all made HUGE steps in their development.

Listen, i'm a huge believer in the Ewing Theory myself, but ARod, I don't feel is a candidate for it. Those teams were flat out good.

IF you're a believer of the Ewing Theory I don't see how you can't think it might apply with Texas. The single year difference really shouldn't explain the amount of improvement in those players, let alone the sheer number of them that jumped up in development all at once. That's either insanely coincidental or evidence that something was stifling them in the prior season(s). Add in that there are stories about players like Young, Teixiera, and Blaylock expressing some frustration with A-Rod's demeanor and treatment of the team (which is not to say that he treated them badly, just that the way he felt was the best way to handle a young team didn't seem to work for the young guys). Add in all of the problems we heard about for years between he and Showalter. Add in his "me and 23 kids" comment. I think its actually pretty logical to believe that A-Rod was a major factor in Texas' improvement in '04. Some folks THRIVE working around youth and being a leader. Some GREAT, AMAZING players and even coaches really don't have it in them to be leaders or mentors. Its not a knock against them, its just a different skill. And a lot of guys are thrust into that position anyway and as in most cases, when you try and get someone or something to do what he/it isn't prepared to do you're going to mess things up. I think we have a decent reason to believe A-Rod just falls into that second category.

I agree 100% on your theory about Seattle, though. In fact there's about a dozen other names I'd throw in about who was added to that team or who hit their prime or had a career year. If anything, I think A-Rod's departure MIGHT have helped them just in that it almost was the final nail in that old Johnson/Griffey team and allowed them to sort of move on to a new era. But even if that were true it would be WAY behind the fact that the parts of the team were greatly different.

I personally think the Ewing Theory is rather meh. Sure, there are guys who are going to hurt you more than help you. Sometimes it will be a clubhouse cancer, sometimes it will be a great guy who just doesn't mesh, whatever. Sometimes its also just dumb luck and the individual had nothing to do with it. Curiouslly, while I think there are plenty of folks who fall into the category of the Ewing Theory I don't think Ewing is one of them.

yanksphan
06-16-05, 04:31 PM
Doesnt matter Sori will be a Yankee again shortly, he loves playing in NY.

The Mets need a 2B....we dont.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-16-05, 05:45 PM
Johnson should never attempt to steal a base

Mr. Mxylsplk
06-16-05, 05:56 PM
Seattles Team ERA in 2000 was 4.50. It was 3.54 in 2001.

Texas team ERA went from 5.67 to 4.53 from 2003 to 2004.

Good thing A-Rod wasn't there to f*ck up the pitching staffs anymore.
Are you suggesting that moving A-Rod wasn't the reason for that improvement? C'mon, who else can we blame for our troubles if not A-Rod? ;)

Epy7280
06-16-05, 06:15 PM
Doesnt matter Sori will be a Yankee again shortly, he loves playing in NY.

I would love to see nicky and Sori as yankees again. You know when each one becomes a free agent?

Prickly Pete
06-16-05, 06:22 PM
I would love to see nicky and Sori as yankees again. You know when each one becomes a free agent?
One more offseason of arbitration eligibility for each, so they should both be free agents after the 2006 season (assuming they don't sign extensions before then).

Epy7280
06-16-05, 06:23 PM
Having a infield of a A-rod,Jeter,Sori, and nicky could be one of the best offensive infields ever.

Blackout806
06-16-05, 08:24 PM
Yes we got one of the best RH hitters ever in Rodriguez. Was it really that great of an improvement? Soriano was the 2B for two American League Pennant teams (2001 & 2003). Lets remember his 8th inning HR of Curt Schilling would have given us the World Series in 2001.

I still find it bizzare how every team GREATLY improves the year after dumping Alex Rodriguez (Seattle, 2001 and Texas, 2004).

I dont know much about the 2001 Mariners other than Ichiro hitting .359

but as for the 2004 Rangers, the likes of Michael Young, Mark Texiera, Hidalgo, Blaylock, Rogers, Astacio etc. certainly had something to do with them improving after losing A-rod

lem
06-16-05, 08:48 PM
but as for the 2004 Rangers, the likes of Michael Young, Mark Texiera, Hidalgo, Blaylock, Rogers, Astacio etc. certainly had something to do with them improving after losing A-rod

No Hidalgo, no Astacio, but Teixiera/Blalock/Young/Drese/Cordero having career years may have done enough.

Jaksiel
06-17-05, 02:38 AM
I dont know much about the 2001 Mariners other than Ichiro hitting .359

but as for the 2004 Rangers, the likes of Michael Young, Mark Texiera, Hidalgo, Blaylock, Rogers, Astacio etc. certainly had something to do with them improving after losing A-rod

Astacio was busy being Boston's "white flag" in September 2004.