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Big_E
04-06-05, 05:18 AM
XV. GOVERNANCE

15.2. All owners (known as the Committee Of the Whole) designate annually an Executive Committee composed of five team owners in good standing. The current Commissioner (self-appointed for life…until he gets fed up with it) is Snatch Catch.

15.3. Rule changes, pronouncements, and acts of whimsy after the inaugural auction are determined by majority vote of the Committee of the Whole.

I think we should form this 'executive committee' (like the Assistant Commissioners of the original league) soon. We should also vote (as per 15.3) on

1) Whether a player on the active roster during ST can be demoted to the minors if he (A) is demoted prior to OD by his team AND (B) has rookie eligibility

2) Whether teams with an open minor league roster spot can sign a FA minor leaguer to fill that spot

with a simple majority of the league (7) winning the votes.

:)

Snatch Catch
04-06-05, 08:57 AM
I think we should form this 'executive committee' (like the Assistant Commissioners of the original league) soon. We should also vote (as per 15.3) on

1) Whether a player on the active roster during ST can be demoted to the minors if he (A) is demoted prior to OD by his team AND (B) has rookie eligibility

2) Whether teams with an open minor league roster spot can sign a FA minor leaguer to fill that spot

with a simple majority of the league (7) winning the votes.

:)

We can do this, but I'm telling you right now: Minor Leaguers that have not made the 25 man roster this year and were purchased in the auction WILL NOT be allowed to be reserved or placed in minor league status.

Period.

Big_E
04-06-05, 09:02 AM
We can do this, but I'm telling you right now: Minor Leaguers that have not made the 25 man roster this year and were purchased in the auction WILL NOT be allowed to be reserved or placed in minor league status.

Period.

There's nothing in the Constitution that says that a player bought in auction who is sent to the minors can't be reserved.


XII. THE RESERVE LIST

12.1. A team may replace any player on its 23-man roster who has been placed on the Disabled List, sent down to the Minor Leagues, been designated for assignment, or been released by his major league team.

If you want to add that, let's have a vote, as provided in 15.3 :)

Hitman23
04-06-05, 09:07 AM
We can do this, but I'm telling you right now: Minor Leaguers that have not made the 25 man roster this year and were purchased in the auction WILL NOT be allowed to be reserved or placed in minor league status.

Period.Kevin, I just wanted to know, why are you so dead set against this? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I was just curious.

boo_427
04-06-05, 09:32 AM
Kevin, I just wanted to know, why are you so dead set against this? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I was just curious.

'Cause E. Jack is gonna be a stud as is McPherson and he wants a shot at them! ;)

Edit: my poor attempt at sarcasm.

Hitman23
04-06-05, 09:38 AM
'Cause E. Jack is gonna be a stud as is McPherson and he wants a shot at them! ;)

Edit: my poor attempt at sarcasm.Hey I'm sitting on Navarro. You can sit on McPhearson.

Soriambi
04-06-05, 09:46 AM
Hey I'm sitting on Navarro. You can sit on McPhearson.

No he can't, because he doesn't have him. ;)

But you can be sure that we will.

Snatch Catch
04-06-05, 10:02 AM
There's nothing in the Constitution that says that a player bought in auction who is sent to the minors can't be reserved.



If you want to add that, let's have a vote, as provided in 15.3 :)

E- I hate to be a killjoy to the democratic process that you want to see here, but there is no amount of posting that is going to change my opinion.

There will not be a vote on this matter.

Snatch Catch
04-06-05, 10:06 AM
Kevin, I just wanted to know, why are you so dead set against this? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I was just curious.

I'll try to be quick on this because I have work to do before heading up to the stadium, but it boils down to this:

There is a minor league draft for a reason.

You are allowed 4 minor leaguers.

If the player does not make the 25 man roster, there is no fundamental difference between any of the 4 minor leaguers you are holding, and a guy like Upton, Jackson, McPherson, Navarro, et. al. None.

Esssentially then, you are allowed to hold 5 minor leaguers instead of the allowed 4.

That is a loophole and that creates a significant imbalance in the league.

bakntime
04-06-05, 10:10 AM
E- I hate to be a killjoy to the democratic process that you want to see here, but there is no amount of posting that is going to change my opinion.

There will not be a vote on this matter.I'm just curious, would you go through your reasoning as to why you're so against this and how it would be abused?

Big_E
04-06-05, 10:14 AM
I'll try to be quick on this because I have work to do before heading up to the stadium, but it boils down to this:

There is a minor league draft for a reason.

You are allowed 4 minor leaguers.

If the player does not make the 25 man roster, there is no fundamental difference between any of the 4 minor leaguers you are holding, and a guy like Upton, Jackson, McPherson, Navarro, et. al. None.

Esssentially then, you are allowed to hold 5 minor leaguers instead of the allowed 4.

That is a loophole and that creates a significant imbalance in the league.

The let them be demoted to the minors -- where we'd have to DROP someone currently on our minor league roster, thus still giving us only 4 minor league players!!!!!! You won't let us demote them or put them on a reserve list -- as provided for in the freaking constitution -- so you force someone to either play a player short, or drop someone they paid for -- and if they pick them up, it would be at $10, instead of $1, right?

The consitution says you can put ANYONE on reserve. If you didn't mean ANYONE, then you shouldn't have just copied and pasted a constitution from another site. :)

bakntime
04-06-05, 10:23 AM
I'll try to be quick on this because I have work to do before heading up to the stadium, but it boils down to this:

There is a minor league draft for a reason.

You are allowed 4 minor leaguers.

If the player does not make the 25 man roster, there is no fundamental difference between any of the 4 minor leaguers you are holding, and a guy like Upton, Jackson, McPherson, Navarro, et. al. None.

Esssentially then, you are allowed to hold 5 minor leaguers instead of the allowed 4.

That is a loophole and that creates a significant imbalance in the league.What Eric said.

yanksphan
04-06-05, 10:28 AM
The let them be demoted to the minors -- where we'd have to DROP someone currently on our minor league roster, thus still giving us only 4 minor league players!

This makes the most sense to me, and I haven't heard an argument why it does not yet.

boo_427
04-06-05, 10:30 AM
Esssentially then, you are allowed to hold 5 minor leaguers instead of the allowed 4.

That is a loophole and that creates a significant imbalance in the league.

I disagree, you should only be allowed to drop a minor leaguer for the demoted minor leaguer.

Thus, the penalty if (i.e Jackson, Navarro, McPherson) are called up you have 7 days to activate them and thus now you only have 3 minor leaguers on your roster instead of four.

This is a situation that seems to be affecting 3 teams and possibly 4. This league is in its infancy, we should be allowed to "tweak" what we see fit for the betterment of future seasons.

Snatch Catch
04-06-05, 10:45 AM
The let them be demoted to the minors -- where we'd have to DROP someone currently on our minor league roster, thus still giving us only 4 minor league players!!!!!! You won't let us demote them or put them on a reserve list -- as provided for in the freaking constitution -- so you force someone to either play a player short, or drop someone they paid for -- and if they pick them up, it would be at $10, instead of $1, right?

The consitution says you can put ANYONE on reserve. If you didn't mean ANYONE, then you shouldn't have just copied and pasted a constitution from another site. :)

I said in the beginning that the constitution wasn't absolute. I said it would be tweaked.

YOU were actually the one to copy and paste the constitution into the forum. What I sent out was a document that I said would be worked with.

None of the 4 people who drafted the guys that they did expected to be able to demote them. They purchased them because they were expected to contribute THIS year. We do not have a bench.

Being able to reserve guys that you purchased at auction, who are not, and HAVE not, been on the 25-man is essentially like having a bench.

And, E- I'm all for the back and forth, but PLEASE don't patronize me with those smilies that you use at the end of your posts that contain barbs or shots. If you have something to say, then say it straight up; don't hide behind a smilie.

bakntime
04-06-05, 10:47 AM
I said in the beginning that the constitution wasn't absolute. I said it would be tweaked.Then it should be tweaked now, beucase it seems like you're the only one against this.

Big_E
04-06-05, 10:55 AM
I said in the beginning that the constitution wasn't absolute. I said it would be tweaked.

YOU were actually the one to copy and paste the constitution into the forum. What I sent out was a document that I said would be worked with.

None of the 4 people who drafted the guys that they did expected to be able to demote them. They purchased them because they were expected to contribute THIS year. We do not have a bench.

Being able to reserve guys that you purchased at auction, who are not, and HAVE not, been on the 25-man is essentially like having a bench.

And, E- I'm all for the back and forth, but PLEASE don't patronize me with those smilies that you use at the end of your posts that contain barbs or shots. If you have something to say, then say it straight up; don't hide behind a smilie.

OK...so then how is it different than if someone played in Opening Day, then got sent to the minors? That person would be allowed to be reserved, right?

If McPherson, for example, played OD (meaning he made the 25-man roster) and was then sent down because he committed 4 errors, he would be allowed to be reserved?

But if McPherson is sent down for extra seasoning, or to recover from a slight -- but not worth disabling -- injury, prior to opening day, he would NOT be allowed to be reserved?

Makes no sense to us. Either way, someone sent to the minors should be allowed to be reserved.

And if you're willing to tweak the consitution (which YOU POSTED -- in the original forum http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=1923605&postcount=54 and I just copied here so it would be on the sub-forum) then let's do it. Since it seems most people except for you seem to be in agreement that people like McPherson should be allowed to be put on a separate reserve list (see my post here: http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=2017226&postcount=103 for another way of running it) then let's vote on it...or are you afraid it would pass?

Snatch Catch
04-06-05, 11:06 AM
or are you afraid it would pass?

I'm sure it would pass, because the majority of those voting in favor want the best possible outcome for them personally; not for the league itself.

You should not be able to purchase a minor leaguer who does not make the major league team and not be penalized in some way. The minor league draft exists for a reason.

And having to drop one of the minor leaguers you currently hold is not sufficient enough.

Big_E
04-06-05, 11:16 AM
I'm sure it would pass, because the majority of those voting in favor want the best possible outcome for them personally; not for the league itself.

You should not be able to purchase a minor leaguer who does not make the major league team and not be penalized in some way. The minor league draft exists for a reason.

And having to drop one of the minor leaguers you currently hold is not sufficient enough.

I think you're penalized by having to pick up a free agent who is a lesser player in your eyes (since if he was better, he would have been picked up for a dollar), and who costs more (a consideration in a keeper league).

I'm still wondering about my questions...if McPhearson is released, and then picked back up when he's recalled, his salary goes from $7 to $10?
And what's the difference in my scenario above?


If McPherson, for example, played OD (meaning he made the 25-man roster) and was then sent down because he committed 4 errors, he would be allowed to be reserved?

But if McPherson is sent down for extra seasoning, or to recover from a slight -- but not worth disabling -- injury, prior to opening day, he would NOT be allowed to be reserved?

And this doesn't affect me personally. But I think it's the fairest thing overall. If you're out for cut-throat, sucks for you that you have to release a player or play short, then yeah, I could see someone thinking that it's better for the league. Personally, I always look for FAIRNESS. Do I want to win? Of course. But this is a keeper league and we're all supposed to be friends around here, so I look for what's the fairest solution possible. And in my opinion, it's allowing someone who didn't make the 25-man roster, to be put on a reserve list.

It's not a bench, because a bench means you can move people in and out at will (like in the original league, or my other leagues). It's simply using a reserve list, as defined in the constitution, to protect your rights to a player who is not on an active major-league roster...

Snatch Catch
04-06-05, 11:50 AM
If you're out for cut-throat, sucks for you that you have to release a player or play short, then yeah, I could see someone thinking that it's better for the league.

If you look back through the archives on the discussions when this was being set up- this WAS the type of league that was being established. I think you and I even discussed it at one point in a thread...

There needs to be a penalty of sorts. Two suggestions:

If a Minor Leaguer taken in the auction who does not make the 25 man maybe

1) He can be reserved, but his salary will be what you piad for him in the auction +$5

2) You are forced to sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal...

Off to the Stadium; will be back later...

bakntime
04-06-05, 11:57 AM
I'm sure it would pass, because the majority of those voting in favor want the best possible outcome for them personally; not for the league itself.I think it would pass (by an incredibly wide margin) because it's what makes the most sense, and seems the most reasonable. I'm not even concerned with keeping McPherson on the ML roster. He's good enough that he's worth losing for close to a month of the season. I'd rather hold on to him, let him hit his 25-30 HRs after he comes back, then have to drop him for some nobody who will hit 15.

The issue I feel is a bigger one is what makes sense here. If a guy who starts the regular season on a major league team, then gets sent down after one week can be placed on reserve, then to me, a guy who gets sent down 2 days before the season starts should be afforded the same luxuries.

Maybe there should be a penalty of some kind for it, like an increase in salary, but there should be a way that it can be done, because it makes sense and that's what most of the owners here seem to think is appropriate. And no, it's not in their personal self interests, becuase right now there might be, besides the Squeakawatts, one other owner who would benefit from this.

Big_E
04-06-05, 11:59 AM
If you look back through the archives on the discussions when this was being set up- this WAS the type of league that was being established. I think you and I even discussed it at one point in a thread...

There needs to be a penalty of sorts. Two suggestions:

If a Minor Leaguer taken in the auction who does not make the 25 man maybe

1) He can be reserved, but his salary will be what you piad for him in the auction +$5

2) You are forced to sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal...

Off to the Stadium; will be back later...

I would go for #1, with a slight adjustment: his salary will be what you paid for him in the auction +$5 if his original salary is $4 or less or more than $9. Between $5 and $9, his salary will become $10.

This way a real cheap player ($1 to $4) still has good keeper value, an expensive player ($10 or more) will be tougher to keep, but still have value for a renewal or two-year deal, and a mid-range guy (McPherson @ $7 for example) becomes $10. Otherwise, it's cheaper for someone to drop McPherson and pick him up again at $10, than to reserve him.

ruthianblast
04-06-05, 12:11 PM
I would go for #1, with a slight adjustment: his salary will be what you paid for him in the auction +$5 if his original salary is $4 or less or more than $9. Between $5 and $9, his salary will become $10.

This way a real cheap player ($1 to $4) still has good keeper value, an expensive player ($10 or more) will be tougher to keep, but still have value for a renewal or two-year deal, and a mid-range guy (McPherson @ $7 for example) becomes $10. Otherwise, it's cheaper for someone to drop McPherson and pick him up again at $10, than to reserve him.

I honestly like the 2nd option presented by Kevin, the 2-3 year deal. Keeping in mind that it would affect me personally (Upton), but I think he has enough upside that I would be willing to sign him to that deal.

I just think that a keeper penalty should apply, it should be helpful if the player pans out, and punitive if you made a bad decision about signing a prospect to a longer deal; sounds like real life.

Big_E
04-06-05, 12:17 PM
I honestly like the 2nd option presented by Kevin, the 2-3 year deal. Keeping in mind that it would affect me personally (Upton), but I think he has enough upside that I would be willing to sign him to that deal.

I just think that a keeper penalty should apply, it should be helpful if the player pans out, and punitive if you made a bad decision about signing a prospect to a longer deal; sounds like real life.

The only thing I didn't like about #2 is that it makes it cheaper to release the player and re-sign them.

McPherson's owner could release him and sign him for $10...then renew his contract once, again at $10. If he had to sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal, his salary (currently $7) would jump to $15 a year for 2 years, or $19 a year for 3 years. Very steep. And again, cheaper to release him and resign him at $10. If he optioned him once at $10, he then has to go back into the draft, where most likely, he'd be signed for less than the $19 a 3-year deal would cost.

boo_427
04-06-05, 12:32 PM
I think it would pass (by an incredibly wide margin) because it's what makes the most sense, and seems the most reasonable. I'm not even concerned with keeping McPherson on the ML roster. He's good enough that he's worth losing for close to a month of the season. I'd rather hold on to him, let him hit his 25-30 HRs after he comes back, then have to drop him for some nobody who will hit 15.

The issue I feel is a bigger one is what makes sense here. If a guy who starts the regular season on a major league team, then gets sent down after one week can be placed on reserve, then to me, a guy who gets sent down 2 days before the season starts should be afforded the same luxuries.

Maybe there should be a penalty of some kind for it, like an increase in salary, but there should be a way that it can be done, because it makes sense and that's what most of the owners here seem to think is appropriate. And no, it's not in their personal self interests, becuase right now there might be, besides the Squeakawatts, one other owner who would benefit from this.

It is not from personal interests, I think that is just unfair that someone I paid $2 for I either have to release or hold onto playing -1 for someone who there is no telling when he will be activated.

I agree 100% with Vito's explainations. especially:


If a guy who starts the regular season on a major league team, then gets sent down after one week can be placed on reserve, then to me, a guy who gets sent down 2 days before the season starts should be afforded the same luxuries.

This my entire argument! With examples: McPherson, E. Jackson, and Navarro.

In fact, I could even agree on a penalty. But having to release the player outright or play -1 is absolutely the biggest penalty option. Rights to minor leaguer are a huge deal in keeper leagues.

I can tell, there are some really serious team owners in our league and we should be able to have living document that can be ammended as times or situations change.

Soriambi
04-06-05, 01:57 PM
I think that players like McPherson is a different situation than players like Navarro. I think that it was very evident that, if healthy, McPherson would be the starting 3B for the Angels. With Navarro, there was never anything close to a guarantee that he would be starting or on the 25 man roster this year. McPherson was sent down absolutely 100% because of his injury. It wasn't a minor leaguer that we picked so that we could have him at a cheap price that we want to send down now. He's a full-time MLB 3B who needed time at AAA to recover from his injury. Navarro was sent down because he wasn't ready to play full-time in the major leagues.

If we do go with increasing their salary by $5 if they are allowed to be reserved, I would suggest that the owners have a choice at that, (Whether to send him down at a $5 penalty or to keep him on the roster at no penalty) though I figure that's pretty obvious (That they have a choice), if we decide to go that way. :)

ruthianblast
04-06-05, 05:20 PM
The only thing I didn't like about #2 is that it makes it cheaper to release the player and re-sign them.

McPherson's owner could release him and sign him for $10...then renew his contract once, again at $10. If he had to sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal, his salary (currently $7) would jump to $15 a year for 2 years, or $19 a year for 3 years. Very steep. And again, cheaper to release him and resign him at $10. If he optioned him once at $10, he then has to go back into the draft, where most likely, he'd be signed for less than the $19 a 3-year deal would cost.

That's kind of the reason I like it, it's punitive if the guy is worth it, if he's a huge prospect like McPherson/Upton/etc... a $19 price tag actually isn't that bad, it's likely still discounted a bit, but is more in line with actual value. That could also serve to have more players left until the minors draft, plus, guys like McPherson/Upton are going to come back up this year, it's not like they're in the minors until Sept., it's more likely that they're up by May/June, so it's a chance I personally took, that Upton would be in the majors and I accept that.

I don't want to feel like I got an advantage by doing something I knew would hurt me this year but would help in the future. It just isn't fair. I do agree that the constitution should be amended if necessary, but I would argue that no amendments can take place after opening day.

/edit sp

Big_E
04-06-05, 07:56 PM
I do agree that the constitution should be amended if necessary, but I would argue that no amendments can take place after opening day.

Normally, I'd agree. But I think there are a few things that don't affect scoring, that need to be addressed ASAP before they become major issues.

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 10:53 AM
The only thing I didn't like about #2 is that it makes it cheaper to release the player and re-sign them.

McPherson's owner could release him and sign him for $10...then renew his contract once, again at $10. If he had to sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal, his salary (currently $7) would jump to $15 a year for 2 years, or $19 a year for 3 years. Very steep. And again, cheaper to release him and resign him at $10. If he optioned him once at $10, he then has to go back into the draft, where most likely, he'd be signed for less than the $19 a 3-year deal would cost.

Quick point on this: An owner CANNOT release a player and simply resign him for $10- once he is released he is not able to be picked up until he is called up to the majors again...

At that point anyone in the league can pick him up...

Big_E
04-07-05, 11:05 AM
Quick point on this: An owner CANNOT release a player and simply resign him for $10- once he is released he is not able to be picked up until he is called up to the majors again...

At that point anyone in the league can pick him up...

I know that, but he'd still be a cheaper pick-up for the $10 if he's willing to take the risk...

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 11:22 AM
I know that, but he'd still be a cheaper pick-up for the $10 if he's willing to take the risk...
Definitely, but he still runs the risk of losing him. A big time prospect like Upton or Dallas will be at the top of a lot of people's lists.

I'm sure that if you really wanted to keep the guy you would sign him to a 3 year deal.

And I agree with Kevin that you should have the option of retaining him on your roster as a dead spot if you so choose.

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 11:31 AM
Plus, cutting a guy in the midst of a long term deal does have consequences ($1 per year left on the deal is subtracted from your $260 budget at the next auction).

My point in this whole situation is the big picture:

The auction is for Major League players.

The minor league draft is for Minor League players.

Big_E
04-07-05, 11:31 AM
Definitely, but he still runs the risk of losing him. A big time prospect like Upton or Dallas will be at the top of a lot of people's lists.

I'm sure that if you really wanted to keep the guy you would sign him to a 3 year deal.

And I agree with Kevin that you should have the option of retaining him on your roster as a dead spot if you so choose.
Why not give people a 3-way choice?

1) You can put the player on reserve (as I discussed earlier, we could have a reserve list in a sticky thread, here), and accept a $5 increase in his salary. A good deal if you're not sure if you want to keep the player long-term.

2) You can put the player on reserve if you sign him to a 2 or 3 year contract. A good deal for a cheap player. A $4 or cheaper player can be locked up for less than $16 a year for 3 years, but you wouldn't necessarily want to lock up a $7-10 player long term right now.

3) Keep the player at his current salary on your active roster, but get no points for that 'dead' spot....A good deal if the player is cheap, and will only be demoted for a short-term period.

3) You can keep him at his current salary and contract if you leave him on your active roster.

Big_E
04-07-05, 11:37 AM
Plus, cutting a guy in the midst of a long term deal does have consequences ($1 per year left on the deal is subtracted from your $260 budget at the next auction).

My point in this whole situation is the big picture:

The auction is for Major League players.

The minor league draft is for Minor League players.

Then you should either limit the auction to people who have used up their rookie eligibility -- which eliminates potential rookies and international players until after the Free For All -- or let people demote or reserve players who did not make the Opening Day roster. I don't think anyone understood that you couldn't do that prior to the auction. I know I didn't. Some people here play in the original league, where the rules for minors are:

1) Any player with minor league eligibility can be put in the minor leagues
2) If a minor league player is called up to the majors, you DO NOT have to promote him from your roster.
3) If you DO promote him, you cannot demote him again until his major league team demotes him -- but you can't demote him if he's passed the rookie limits.


And while I was aware of the rule differences between here and there in #2 and #3, I don't think anyone realized that a player taken in the Auction couldn't be demoted. In the original league, for example, someone drafted Chien-Ming Wang. When he didn't make the Yankees, he was allowed to be demoted to the minor leagues with no penalty.

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 11:45 AM
Then you should either limit the auction to people who have used up their rookie eligibility -- which eliminates potential rookies and international players until after the Free For All -- or let people demote or reserve players who did not make the Opening Day roster. I don't think anyone understood that you couldn't do that prior to the auction. I know I didn't. Some people here play in the original league, where the rules for minors are:

1) Any player with minor league eligibility can be put in the minor leagues
2) If a minor league player is called up to the majors, you DO NOT have to promote him from your roster.
3) If you DO promote him, you cannot demote him again until his major league team demotes him -- but you can't demote him if he's passed the rookie limits.


And while I was aware of the rule differences between here and there in #2 and #3, I don't think anyone realized that a player taken in the Auction couldn't be demoted. In the original league, for example, someone drafted Chien-Ming Wang. When he didn't make the Yankees, he was allowed to be demoted to the minor leagues with no penalty.

I'm open to reserve or minor league status, but with a penalty involved if that is the case.

The reason that I have no problem with someone who has only played a month in the majors and then gets sent down being eligible to be reserved or have minors status is that that player was a Major League player. He was taken in the auction as a major league player, he made the 25 man roster and was a Major Leaguer by every measurable standard.


If I REALLY had my drothers, there would be NO reserve AT ALL. Only DL and your 4 minor league slots for the draft.

Someone gets released, demoted, suspended, whatever, you either have to hold him or drop him. There is only black and white, no grey, ambiguos status questions. (Dont worry, I'm not going to do this, its just where I think the league should be. A simple, level playing field. You're either active or on the DL. Thats it).

Big_E
04-07-05, 11:49 AM
The reason that I have no problem with someone who has only played a month in the majors and then gets sent down being eligible to be reserved or have minors status is that that player was a Major League player. He was taken in the auction as a major league player, he made the 25 man roster and was a Major Leaguer by every measurable standard.

But that leaves a big loophole for people like McPherson who you expected to be a major league player. If McPherson played opening day, committed 4 errors and was sent down he's eligible to be reserved, but if he makes 4 errors in his last ST game and is sent down prior to OD, he's not? Makes no sense.

...And I wasn't proposing what we do in the original league to be made effective here, I was pointing out the rules -- especially #1 -- that some people are used to. My proposal was the post right before that one...

Big_E
04-07-05, 11:51 AM
If I REALLY had my drothers, there would be NO reserve AT ALL. Only DL and your 4 minor league slots for the draft.

And that would have been fine too...if you hadn't chosen to cut and paste a constitution that included reserves. :)

I'd be up for that next year...but for this year, we have to deal with what we have in the constitution.

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 12:18 PM
But that leaves a big loophole for people like McPherson who you expected to be a major league player. If McPherson played opening day, committed 4 errors and was sent down he's eligible to be reserved, but if he makes 4 errors in his last ST game and is sent down prior to OD, he's not? Makes no sense.


Makes complete sense. He was taken in the auction. The auction is for your active roster of Major League players. He was never active in the Major Leagues this year.

It doesn't matter HOW he didn't make it, only that he was never a Major Leaguer in the year he was drafted.

Minor Leaguers are taken in the minor league draft.

If you're going to take the chance and take a high ceiling minor leaguer in the auction, he HAS to make the Major Leagues, because that is what the auction is for. If he doesn't make it, you need to be penalized in some way; you shouldn't just be able to hang on to the guy for relatively nothing until he's ready to go.

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 12:19 PM
But that leaves a big loophole for people like McPherson who you expected to be a major league player

Expected. Thats the word here. Thats the risk you take.

Todd Helton isn't an expected major leaguer. He is one.

Big_E
04-07-05, 12:22 PM
If he doesn't make it, you need to be penalized in some way; you shouldn't just be able to hang on to the guy for relatively nothing until he's ready to go.

OK, so then again...respond to my post of 11:31am...

boo_427
04-07-05, 12:24 PM
. If he doesn't make it, you need to be penalized in some way; you shouldn't just be able to hang on to the guy for relatively nothing until he's ready to go.

Kev,
I am willing to except the penalty on Mr. E-Jack.

But, I think we should spell it out for everyone before this weekend is over.

I didn't realize I was creating this monster debate. Totally not my intentions.

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 12:39 PM
Why not give people a 3-way choice?

1) You can put the player on reserve (as I discussed earlier, we could have a reserve list in a sticky thread, here), and accept a $5 increase in his salary. A good deal if you're not sure if you want to keep the player long-term.

2) You can put the player on reserve if you sign him to a 2 or 3 year contract. A good deal for a cheap player. A $4 or cheaper player can be locked up for less than $16 a year for 3 years, but you wouldn't necessarily want to lock up a $7-10 player long term right now.

3) Keep the player at his current salary on your active roster, but get no points for that 'dead' spot....A good deal if the player is cheap, and will only be demoted for a short-term period.


Sounds good to me. The only thing I would be more specific about is the 2-3 year deal. I say we make it 2.

At first I thought 3 would be more of a penalty, but the more I thought about it, 2 was.

Thoughts?

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 12:40 PM
Kev,
I am willing to except the penalty on Mr. E-Jack.

But, I think we should spell it out for everyone before this weekend is over.

I didn't realize I was creating this monster debate. Totally not my intentions.

I agree with you- this should be resolved before Monday.

And you didn't start anything that didn't need to be brought up anyway. No need to be apologetic!

boo_427
04-07-05, 12:55 PM
I agree with you- this should be resolved before Monday.

And you didn't start anything that didn't need to be brought up anyway. No need to be apologetic!

I think I understand why our left over flow went to the site. The amount of bandwidth sucked down by this one issue, WOW!

I will admit, having never seen the other leagues rules or even viewing any of their discussions, I do like the way they treat minor leaguers.

To me, the biggest thing is, are the eligible in terms of games or innings played in the Majors. If they don't meet those requirements then drop or activate period!

In my case of Jackson, very similar but not exactly like the McPherson situation is he just wasn't ready. But, he was projected and expected to be on their OD roster.

yanksphan
04-07-05, 12:56 PM
I agree with you- this should be resolved before Monday.

And you didn't start anything that didn't need to be brought up anyway. No need to be apologetic!

Yeah, it's not like you boo'd Mo or something. ;)

boo_427
04-07-05, 01:03 PM
Yeah, it's not like you boo'd Mo or something. ;)

That I would never do!!!

I fell in love with that guy in '96!

I would take him over every closer in the game!:D

yanksphan
04-07-05, 01:11 PM
That I would never do!!!

I fell in love with that guy in '96!

I would take him over every closer in the game!:D

Then you're not a TRUE Yankee Fan!!! What about 1995?!?? Why didn't you love him then?!? Bandwagoner!!! AHhhh!! Foul!!!111 ;)


- sorry, too much coffee, and too much time in those "Mo" threads in ITL. :lol:

Soriambi
04-07-05, 01:33 PM
Sounds good to me. The only thing I would be more specific about is the 2-3 year deal. I say we make it 2.

At first I thought 3 would be more of a penalty, but the more I thought about it, 2 was.

Thoughts?

What about two or more? If we want to sign a guy for longer, we could sign him for three or four if we so chose?

Big_E
04-07-05, 01:40 PM
What about two or more? If we want to sign a guy for longer, we could sign him for three or four if we so chose?

Just remember it's $4 more a year for every year.

So McPherson, at $7 right now, would be $23 a year starting next year. Considering Hank Blalock only went for $27 and Carlos Delgado went for $24, that's a huge salary for a rookie or 2nd year player...

Soriambi
04-07-05, 01:41 PM
Just remember it's $4 more a year for every year.

So McPherson, at $7 right now, would be $23 a year starting next year. Considering Hank Blalock only went for $27, that's a huge salary for a rookie or 2nd year player...

Yeah-I'm not saying for him, I'm just suggesting it for the general rule. :)

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 01:41 PM
What about two or more? If we want to sign a guy for longer, we could sign him for three or four if we so chose?

I'm thinking 2 because that would allow you to use his current salary as the base, but penalize you enough that you would have to consider if you REALLY wanted to replace him on the active roster.

You would have the guy's rights for three years total.

chanman7483
04-07-05, 01:42 PM
Dammit

I just don't want to get rid of Swisher... but all my OF are going to do well. UGH.

Big_E
04-07-05, 01:43 PM
Yeah-I'm not saying for him, I'm just suggesting it for the general rule. :)

True...though even a $1 bargain would be $17 a year...and if you don't keep him all 4 years, you lose $1 per year from your auction money.

And 2 years is a bigger penalty, in that you can't re-sign him, and you'll probably have to pay more for him in the next auction.

Soriambi
04-07-05, 01:46 PM
I'm thinking 2 because that would allow you to use his current salary as the base, but penalize you enough that you would have to consider if you REALLY wanted to replace him on the active roster.

You would have the guy's rights for three years total.

I think that two should be the minimum, but is there a reason that you wouldn't be able to sign him for 3-4 years (for considerably more money) if you wanted to? Say Greg Aquino got demoted, and Vito and I were on crack. If we wanted to sign him to a 4 year/$17 deal, for whatever reason, would that be allowed? I understand the two year minimum, but is there a reason that we couldn't sign them for more if we chose to go that way?

Big_E
04-07-05, 01:51 PM
I think that two should be the minimum, but is there a reason that you wouldn't be able to sign him for 3-4 years (for considerably more money) if you wanted to? Say Greg Aquino got demoted, and Vito and I were on crack. If we wanted to sign him to a 4 year/$17 deal, for whatever reason, would that be allowed? I understand the two year minimum, but is there a reason that we couldn't sign them for more if we chose to go that way?
I could support a 2-year minimum, 4-year maximum with the regular penalty. I just want this settled. :)

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 01:52 PM
And 2 years is a bigger penalty, in that you can't re-sign him, and you'll probably have to pay more for him in the next auction.

Yep. Thats why I support it.

If you want to reserve him, you have to either bump his salary $5 or choose to lock him up for the 2 years after this one...but only the two years after this one (you would lose his option year).

You could take the $5 bump, and then sign him to a contract next year.

$1 Upton being the example:

Scenario 1: Demoted, salary becomes $6. Next year you either hang on to him at $6 by picking up his option OR you sign him to a long term contract using a $6 salary base.

Scenario 2: Demoted, immediately signed to a 2 year deal that starts next season. Base salary is $1. Salaries next year and the year after would be $9 each. Returns to free agency afterwards.

Scenario 3: Not demoted, Salary remains $1. At the end of the year he functions like any other player in terms of contracts, etc.

I think this would work...

Soriambi
04-07-05, 01:53 PM
I could support a 2-year minimum, 4-year maximum with the regular penalty. I just want this settled. :)

I'd just like it settled, too. The ironic thing is that with a penalty, I doubt we'll reserve McPherson since he's due back in mid-late April, so it's more about future situations.:lol:

Soriambi
04-07-05, 01:54 PM
Yep. Thats why I support it.

If you want to reserve him, you have to either bump his salary $5 or choose to lock him up for the 2 years after this one...but only the two years after this one (you would lose his option year).



Okay-I can see where that would be a bigger penalty. That sounds fair enough. :) Gotta go to class now. Be back later if there's anything left to discuss. ;)

Big_E
04-07-05, 01:54 PM
Demoted or reserved?

I know demoted in real life, but are we going to create a reserve list (on this forum) for these players. and those like them?

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 01:55 PM
I think that two should be the minimum, but is there a reason that you wouldn't be able to sign him for 3-4 years (for considerably more money) if you wanted to? Say Greg Aquino got demoted, and Vito and I were on crack. If we wanted to sign him to a 4 year/$17 deal, for whatever reason, would that be allowed? I understand the two year minimum, but is there a reason that we couldn't sign them for more if we chose to go that way?

I think the 2 year contract is good because the $2-$4 penalty isn't THAT big of a deterrant.

Wrapping up a prospect like Upton for 4 years with a $1 base is a no brainer.

We don't even have that kind of opportunity with our minor leaguers that we drafted...

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 02:00 PM
Demoted or reserved?

I know demoted in real life, but are we going to create a reserve list (on this forum) for these players. and those like them?

I think this is a good idea.

boo_427
04-07-05, 02:21 PM
I think the 2 year contract is good because the $2-$4 penalty isn't THAT big of a deterrant.

Wrapping up a prospect like Upton for 4 years with a $1 base is a no brainer.

We don't even have that kind of opportunity with our minor leaguers that we drafted...

Agreed, Jackson at $2, would be $6 next year and the following if I wanted to sign to that contract?

I like what were getting at.

Big_E
04-07-05, 02:25 PM
OK...So is this what we are proposing?

1) A reserve list will be created on this forum. (With a sticky added by a mod).

2) An owner can put any player on this reserve list who was on their active roster at any point (including Spring Training) and who was (A) demoted to the minors or (B) released from their contract.

3) In order to be added to the reserve list, the player's owner must agree in advance to either: (A) Increase his base salary by $5, or (B) Sign the player to a 2-year contract extention, with their salary increasing by the usual $4 per year penalty, for 2006 and 2007. (A $1 player becomes a $9 player for each of two years, for example).

3) Players who are signed to an extention can not be signed to a second extention, as per the existing rules in the constitution.

4) An owner is free to keep the player on their active roster, incurring no salary penalty, but will earn no points while the player is in the real-life minor leagues.

5) Owners must make their intentions known within 7 days of a player being released or demoted. At 12:01AM of the 7th day, players must either be kept on the active roster or released outright.

6) When a player is promoted back from the minor leagues, or signed to a new major-league contract, their owners have 7 days to promote them to their active roster. At 12:01AM of the 7th day, they will be automatically released to the Free Agent pool.


OK?

boo_427
04-07-05, 03:09 PM
I agree with that 100%

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 03:17 PM
Agreed. One change- it should be the 8th day, not the 7th in the last point...

Oh, and this:


3) In order to be added to the reserve list, the player's owner must agree in advance to either: (A) Increase his base salary by $5, or (B) Sign the player to a 2-year contract extention, with their salary increasing by the usual $4 per year penalty, for 2006 and 2007. (A $1 player becomes a $9 player for each of two years, for example).

should only be applicable to guys that were taken in auction but didn't make the 25 man out of spring training (They have not been in the majors this year).

Big_E
04-07-05, 03:26 PM
OK....Better?


1) A reserve list will be created on this forum. (With a sticky added by a mod).

2) An owner can put any player on this reserve list who was on their active roster at any point (including Spring Training) and who was (A) demoted to the minors or (B) released from their contract.

3) In order to add a player to the reserve list who was taken in the auction, but was not part of a major league team's Opening Day roster, the player's owner must agree in advance to either: (A) Increase his base salary by $5, or (B) Sign the player to a 2-year contract extention, with their salary increasing by the usual $4 per year penalty, for 2006 and 2007. (A $1 player becomes a $9 player for each of two years, for example).

4) Players who were part of the Opening Day roster, but who were subsequently demoted to the minor leagues can be added to the reserve roster with none of the penalties described in (3), above.

5) Players who are signed to an extention can not be signed to a second extention, as per the existing rules in the constitution.

6) An owner is free to keep the player on their active roster, incurring no salary penalty, but will earn no points while the player is in the real-life minor leagues.

7) Owners must make their intentions known within 7 days of a player being released or demoted. At 12:01AM of the 8th day, players must either be kept on the active roster or released outright.

8) When a player is promoted back from the minor leagues, or signed to a new major-league contract, their owners have 7 days to promote them to their active roster. At 12:01AM of the 8th day, they will be automatically released to the Free Agent pool.

ruthianblast
04-07-05, 03:56 PM
OK....Better?


1) A reserve list will be created on this forum. (With a sticky added by a mod).

2) An owner can put any player on this reserve list who was on their active roster at any point (including Spring Training) and who was (A) demoted to the minors or (B) released from their contract.

3) In order to add a player to the reserve list who was taken in the auction, but was not part of a major league team's Opening Day roster, the player's owner must agree in advance to either: (A) Increase his base salary by $5, or (B) Sign the player to a 2-year contract extention, with their salary increasing by the usual $4 per year penalty, for 2006 and 2007. (A $1 player becomes a $9 player for each of two years, for example).

4) Players who were part of the Opening Day roster, but who were subsequently demoted to the minor leagues can be added to the reserve roster with none of the penalties described in (3), above.

5) Players who are signed to an extention can not be signed to a second extention, as per the existing rules in the constitution.

6) An owner is free to keep the player on their active roster, incurring no salary penalty, but will earn no points while the player is in the real-life minor leagues.

7) Owners must make their intentions known within 7 days of a player being released or demoted. At 12:01AM of the 8th day, players must either be kept on the active roster or released outright.

8) When a player is promoted back from the minor leagues, or signed to a new major-league contract, their owners have 7 days to promote them to their active roster. At 12:01AM of the 8th day, they will be automatically released to the Free Agent pool.

This sounds good to me, now the next debate, does this take effect immediately and if so can I sign Upton for as long as possible ;)

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 04:10 PM
OK....Better?


1) A reserve list will be created on this forum. (With a sticky added by a mod).

2) An owner can put any player on this reserve list who was on their active roster at any point (including Spring Training) and who was (A) demoted to the minors or (B) released from their contract.

3) In order to add a player to the reserve list who was taken in the auction, but was not part of a major league team's Opening Day roster, the player's owner must agree in advance to either: (A) Increase his base salary by $5, or (B) Sign the player to a 2-year contract extention, with their salary increasing by the usual $4 per year penalty, for 2006 and 2007. (A $1 player becomes a $9 player for each of two years, for example).

4) Players who were part of the Opening Day roster, but who were subsequently demoted to the minor leagues can be added to the reserve roster with none of the penalties described in (3), above.

5) Players who are signed to an extention can not be signed to a second extention, as per the existing rules in the constitution.

6) An owner is free to keep the player on their active roster, incurring no salary penalty, but will earn no points while the player is in the real-life minor leagues.

7) Owners must make their intentions known within 7 days of a player being released or demoted. At 12:01AM of the 8th day, players must either be kept on the active roster or released outright.

8) When a player is promoted back from the minor leagues, or signed to a new major-league contract, their owners have 7 days to promote them to their active roster. At 12:01AM of the 8th day, they will be automatically released to the Free Agent pool.

Looks good! Nicely done, E! :clap:

Snatch Catch
04-07-05, 04:11 PM
This sounds good to me, now the next debate, does this take effect immediately and if so can I sign Upton for as long as possible ;)

Yes, but be careful what you do, and keep in mind that once you post here what you want to do, you can't change your mind...

Soriambi
04-07-05, 05:19 PM
I would make one change to that, Eric. I would make the "Default" that a player stays on your active roster. If you don't mention it in here, on the 8th day at 12:01, you'll lose the right to put that player on the reserve and must either keep him on your active roster or release him, rather than making that an automatic release. I'm not 100% sure whether you were saying that, or whether you were saying exactly what I said right here, but I thought I'd clarify. :)

Big_E
04-07-05, 08:25 PM
I would make one change to that, Eric. I would make the "Default" that a player stays on your active roster. If you don't mention it in here, on the 8th day at 12:01, you'll lose the right to put that player on the reserve and must either keep him on your active roster or release him, rather than making that an automatic release. I'm not 100% sure whether you were saying that, or whether you were saying exactly what I said right here, but I thought I'd clarify. :)

1) SECTION 7 means: If a player is released or demoted by his major league team, at 12:01AM on the 8th day, you lose the right to reserve the player, he must be kept on the active roster or released outright.

2) SECTION 8 means: When a player already on reserve is called back to the majors, or signs with a new major league team, you have 7 days to put them back on your active roster...or they will be released to the free agent pool.

Big_E
04-07-05, 10:44 PM
So do we need to vote on this?

Snatch Catch
04-08-05, 09:17 AM
So do we need to vote on this?

Nope. 7 days from today everything should be ironed out.

This only affects 3 people I think: McPherson, Jackson, and Upton...

boo_427
04-08-05, 09:48 AM
Nope. 7 days from today everything should be ironed out.

This only affects 3 people I think: McPherson, Jackson, and Upton...

Navarro?

Are we going to create the "reserve" list?

Snatch Catch
04-08-05, 10:48 AM
Navarro?

Are we going to create the "reserve" list?

I thought Steve dropped Navarro? If not, then yes, he is included, too.

I'll start a reserve list thread shortly.

yanksphan
04-08-05, 11:38 AM
So now that this has been resolved, what about picking up Minor League "free agents" to fill empty minor league spots?

boo_427
04-08-05, 12:00 PM
I thought Steve dropped Navarro? If not, then yes, he is included, too.

I'll start a reserve list thread shortly.

About time you put Jaret in you avatar with a big old Red Man in his mouth. Actually, if I remember from last year, he said on radio he was a Levi Garrett man.