Indy at N.E.

[REDSOXIN2004]

Will Manning finally come out and beat the Pats. I dont think so. NE has had his number for a while now. Especially Bill B.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

NE is a 3.5 point favorite. That sounds about right. I'll take the points, and look forward to a great opening night.

[NYYFAN]

If it's a fast field, Indy has a chance...

[RIyankee]

Indy has no chance. The Pats will crush them.

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by RIyankee
Indy has no chance. The Pats will crush them.

So much for being objective...

[Yankee Bulldawg]

I believe Indy has a chance to beat the Pats. I for one hate the Pats and hope they dont repeat as Superbowl champs this year. Peyton Manning & Marvin Harrison are deadly as can be.

Just so you know i'm no Colts fan, i support the Broncos :)

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by NYYFAN


So much for being objective...

I am being objective. Here's the specifcs for my prognostication.

- The Colts have a weak secondary that's the same as it was last year. I expect Brady to pick it apart like he's done twice last season.

- Being a domed stadium team, the Colts will be playing in soggy conditions.

- With Cory Dillon, the Pats have an improved running game that will do a better job of controlling the clock and prevent the Colts from attempting a comeback like they did in Indy when they narrowed a 31-10 deficit.

- Offensively the Colts are overrated as they don't have enough weapons to keep up with the Pats. I expect the Pats to reach 30 pts.

- Lastly, as I posted in older threads, the Pats defense is furious with the crying the Colts did after both of their losses. In an extremely overhyped game like this the Pats will send a message.

Seriously Mark, if I didn't think the Pats would win I'd tell you. ;) To tell you the truth, I don't think they'll repeat. As for Indy, I'm just not high on the Colts as the media is. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Houston and Jacksonville fare better than Indy.

So much for subjectivity. :D

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by Yankee Bulldawg
I believe Indy has a chance to beat the Pats. I for one hate the Pats and hope they dont repeat as Superbowl champs this year. Peyton Manning & Marvin Harrison are deadly as can be.

Just so you know i'm no Colts fan, i support the Broncos :)

The only way I see the Pats losing this game is if they play an extermely sloppy game (turnovers).

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by RIyankee



Seriously Mark, if I didn't think the Pats would win I'd tell you. ;) To tell you the truth, I don't think they'll repeat. As for Indy, I'm just not high on the Colts as the media is. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Houston and Jacksonville fare better than Indy.

So much for subjectivity. :D

And like I said, if they play on a fast field, Indy has a chance...do you agree?

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by NYYFAN


And like I said, if they play on a fast field, Indy has a chance...do you agree?

In the big scheme of things, yes, they have a chance because that's why they play the games. But I think that the Pats offense has more weapons, a mixture of 2 TEs and muli-WR sets that Colts don't have. The Pats played in Indy last year and ran up the score to 31-10. A lackluster running game gave the Colts a chance to come back.

If I'm Dungy, I'd establish the running game with Edgerrin James. And go to their TEs (Pollard and Clark). I'm guessing the Pats will come out passing and will try to establish the run in the 2nd half which is their MO.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

Is Frances headed for New England?

[JeffWeaverFan]

Indy is going to win. I really believe NE is going to have a dissapointing season. Finally the breaks won't go their way.

[REDSOXIN2004]

Dont be a hater. You give no good reason to hate the Pats. They are the perfect example of a true team

Originally posted by Yankee Bulldawg
I believe Indy has a chance to beat the Pats. I for one hate the Pats and hope they dont repeat as Superbowl champs this year. Peyton Manning & Marvin Harrison are deadly as can be.

Just so you know i'm no Colts fan, i support the Broncos :)

[REDSOXIN2004]

It takes more than breaks to win 2 super bowls in 3 years in this type of league

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
Indy is going to win. I really believe NE is going to have a dissapointing season. Finally the breaks won't go their way.

[Seth]

I see the Pats winning because usually Bellichick usually devises a defensive scheme to frustrate Manning and I don't see this being any different. Also, when Bellichick has more than a week to gameplan (he's had more than 4 months to gameplan for the Colts), his team recently seems to play very well.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

Originally posted by Socal Pinstriper
Is Frances headed for New England?

Actually, I am interested in an answer to this question. Is it going to rain at game time tomorrow????

[REDSOXIN2004]

Very good possibility it will rain

Originally posted by Socal Pinstriper


Actually, I am interested in an answer to this question. Is it going to rain at game time tomorrow????

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by Socal Pinstriper


Actually, I am interested in an answer to this question. Is it going to rain at game time tomorrow????

Based on the recent weather report...YES...advantage Pats...

And since I have Cory Dillion, I hope he runs and runs and runs...

[patrick.o]

Colts jump out early and cruise.

[SheffMVP11]

Go Colts

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
Indy is going to win. I really believe NE is going to have a dissapointing season. Finally the breaks won't go their way.

J-E-T-S JETS, JETS, COLTS!!! :lol:

A dissapointing season for the Pats would still be a better season than the Jets. :D

[WebsterMulligan]

With all of the rain, the field will be turned into a morass, which will likely favor the Patriots (as they always seem to win during inclement weather). Pats win on a late field goal.

[RIyankee]

The new NTs on the DL (Traylor/Wilfork) will be tested. The Pats will need to prepare for Colts TEs Pollard and Clark.

[RIyankee]

The Colts' offense is probably the best the Pats "D" will face this season with that of KC's being a close 2nd.

[Looie #19]

I think Brady will pull something out of his purse of tricks tonight. :lol:

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

I've been waiting for this since the second the Super Bowl ended. :drool: :drool: :drool:

Here's to the greatness of football and the feeling I get at the sound of the first kickoff of the first game of the season. :gulp:

I'm going with the Colts tonight, though the Pats have come out firing.

[REDSOXIN2004]

its good. 3-0

[deranged2005]

I think the Pats will win. I don't like Manning + The Pat's D + rain + soggy conditions.

[cubswin]

BRUSCHI

[#1PaFan]

In my main league, I have Vinatieri, Freeney, Harper & Bruschi going. NOT a bad start. :gulp:

[cubswin]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35
[B...the first kickoff of the first game of the season. :gulp:..[/B]


YES!

[PinstripePride]

Originally posted by #1PaFan
In my main league, I have Vinatieri, Freeney, Harper & Bruschi going. NOT a bad start. :gulp:

Sick! :gulp:

[#1PaFan]

Damn, Dallas Clark! He almost caught a TD pass but with that sorry-ass first name of his, of course it falls to the turf.....

[PinstripePride]

Originally posted by cubswin
BRUSCHI

Teddy Bruschi is so badass.


LOL George! I was just talking to some random kid when Clark dropped it and he was like "DAMNIT! He's on my team!" :lol:

[#1PaFan]

LOVE the Southwest commercials!!! :) :gulp:

[PinstripePride]

Look at Edge pound. :smokin:

[PinstripePride]

There goes Petey's boy Doss, pulled hammy, carted off the field. :lol:

[#1PaFan]

Wow, the Colts RBs are looking GREAT on this drive!!!

[#1PaFan]

Originally posted by PinstripePride
There goes Petey's boy Doss, pulled hammy, carted off the field. :lol:

Poor Petey! :D

[PinstripePride]

Where the hell'd NE's run D go?

[PinstripePride]

TOUCHDOWN INDY!!! :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

[#1PaFan]

Man, THAT was a helluva impressive drive. All rushing too.

[PinstripePride]

Hit Dillon. HARD. :mad:

[PinstripePride]

Nice secondary IND. Goddamnit. 10 up.

[#1PaFan]

I dropped Branch in the offseason. :) But, hell I have Moss and Coles.

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by #1PaFan
Damn, Dallas Clark! He almost caught a TD pass but with that sorry-ass first name of his, of course it falls to the turf.....

Don't Doubt Dallas. :D

[PinstripePride]

Branch sucks. :uhh: :lol:



DALLAS CLARK!!!!!!!!!

[#1PaFan]

CLARK!!!!!!!!!!! I just ain't gonna use that first name! :gulp: :smokin:

[PinstripePride]

Originally posted by #1PaFan
I just ain't gonna use that first name! :gulp: :smokin:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Why the need to start up "Welcome to the Jungle" every 3 seconds? I don't see any Eric Gagne coming out. Methinks he'd be a beast of a blocking tight end...

[#1PaFan]

Come on, Manning. Play action pass to Clark. :)

[PinstripePride]

THATS IT BABY! 17-10!

[PinstripePride]

No way he makes this kick. No way he makes this kick. No way he makes this kick. No way he makes this kick.

Goddamnit he made the kick.

[#1PaFan]

Nat, did you listen to that Commercial with Mr. Lombardi? THAT is what the NFL is about!! :smokin:

[Gringaloca]

Make it 17 - 13 @ the 'half'.....Come on Brady Bunch!

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by Gringaloca
Make it 17 - 13 @ the 'half'.....Come on Brady Bunch!

The Pats will make the adjustments and shut them down in the second half.

Are you a Pats fan, Gringa? :D

[#1PaFan]

Man, that was a perfect pass. Beat my man Harper. :lol:

[PinstripePride]

Go to hell Brady.

[WebsterMulligan]

Brady has been spectacular, so far tonight.

[PinstripePride]

He really has...I have to admit. He's been threading the needle and firing some sick passes.

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


The Pats will make the adjustments and shut them down in the second half.

Are you a Pats fan, Gringa? :D

I'm a Meeeech-i-gan Fan, BABY!!....Tom Brady, Ty Law..and didn't Branch go to Michigan, too?.:D maybe?....

Besides,....I gave up the 3-1/2 tonight. It would be nice to start with an 'early win' for a change!...:D

20 - 17....woo hoo...that's part of it!!

Watching the NFL on ABC and Mariners/Sux on mlb.tv....think I've got problem with 'sports substance abuse'....:eek: :D

btw...."Semen" up 2 - 0. (see what I mean?...:eek:

[#1PaFan]

Elsewhere, the Pink Sox are losing to the Mariners 2-0 bottom of the thirde & the Mariners have runners on 1st & 3rd with one out. :gulp:

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by Gringaloca


I'm a Meeeech-i-gan Fan, BABY!!....Tom Brady, Ty Law..and didn't Branch go to Michigan, too?.:D maybe?....

Besides,....I gave up the 3-1/2 tonight. It would be nice to start with an 'early win' for a change!...:D

20 - 17....woo hoo...that's part of it!!

Watching the NFL on ABC and Mariners/Sux on mlb.tv....think I've got problem with 'sports substance abuse'....:eek: :D

Go Blue! Except when they play my Fighting Irish!

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by #1PaFan
Elsewhere, the Pink Sox are losing to the Mariners 2-0 bottom of the thirde & the Mariners have runners on 1st & 3rd with one out. :gulp:

Now that the Red Sox are playing the dregs of the league, they will start to fade.

[#1PaFan]

3-0 Mariners. :)

[#1PaFan]

Madden is right. Manning gave that play away.....But he sure made up for it!!! Wow.

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Go Blue! Except when they play my Fighting Irish!

Oh yeah!!!...that would be this Saturday....2;30 pm EST on NBC..."NotreDame Broadcasting Network"....:D
Got any predictions, Web'..?.....are you a betting man?...

[PinstripePride]

MANNING!

[#1PaFan]

Originally posted by Gringaloca


Oh yeah!!!...that would be this Saturday....2;30 pm EST on NBC..."NotreDame Broadcasting Network"....:D
Got any predictions, Web'..?.....are you a betting man?...

The Wolverines are going to win in a romp. :gulp:

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by Gringaloca


Oh yeah!!!...that would be this Saturday....2;30 pm EST on NBC..."NotreDame Broadcasting Network"....:D
Got any predictions, Web'..?.....are you a betting man?...

Michigan will win. The Irish still have some growing up to do. Unfortunately, my Gold & Blue suck.

[PinstripePride]

Damn Pats...:(

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Michigan will win. The Irish still have some growing up to do. Unfortunately, my Gold & Blue suck.

I'm not so sure it's a 'lock'. Michigan is rebuilding too. New QB, RB and lost some key guys on 'D'. Only thing I hate more that losing to Ohio State is losing to ND.
I predict a close game......and I WILL NOT bet it! Learned my lesson on betting w/ Michigan back in the Schembechler days....:eek:

[cubswin]

Branch went to louisville

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by #1PaFan


The Wolverines are going to win in a romp. :gulp:

From your 'frosty' lips to Gods ears, PA!....:D


Oooooh....27 - 17!!! 'talk about a 'romp'......:lol: GO BRADY....GO BRADY...GO BRADY!!!....:D

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by cubswin
Branch went to louisville

Thank you...too lazy to look it up....:D

[#1PaFan]

Man, this game seems to be flying by.

[Gringaloca]

NFL Stat: Pats with 27 consecutive wins when leading going into the 4th quarter....:eek: Gotta cover, tho!..:D

[#1PaFan]

Nick Harper!!! :gulp:

[#1PaFan]

5-0 Mariners. :gulp:

[PinstripePride]

WOOHOO! Go Seattle! Go IND!

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by #1PaFan
5-0 Mariners. :gulp:

Make that 7-0...and the Seattle/Boston GT in Around the Majors is suspicously(sp?) absent of Boston fan forumers.....;) Go figure..:D

[PinstripePride]

OMG what the hell just happened.

[#1PaFan]

Originally posted by Gringaloca


Make that 7-0...and the Seattle/Boston GT in Around the Majors is suspicously(sp?) absent of Boston fan forumers.....;) Go figure..:D

Gee! That's surprising!!! :D

WOW!!!!!! This game is awesome.

[PinstripePride]

Wow, that really sucks. :(

[Pomp]

Fumble on the 1yrd line!!

Damn!

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by PinstripePride
OMG what the hell just happened.

He could go allll the waaay.....but no!....he stumbled....HE FUMBLED!!!:)

[Pomp]

Originally posted by PinstripePride
Wow, that really sucks. :(

If they go 4 and out...Indy still gets good field position.

[PinstripePride]

Alllllmost a safety. :eek:

[PinstripePride]

Originally posted by Pomp


If they go 4 and out...Indy still gets good field position.


There goes that.

[Pomp]

Originally posted by PinstripePride



There goes that.

Son of a biatch.

[Pomp]

Edge lost 2 fumbles tonight.

[PinstripePride]

Originally posted by Pomp


Son of a biatch.

I agree.

[#1PaFan]

Man, might have an OT game here, folks.

[JeffWeaverFan]

The Patriots are the luckiest f*cking team I've ever seen. Edge fumbles on the freaking goal line and of coruse the patriots recover. It's complete crap. And there's Tom Brady fumbling in a BIG spot but of coruse that will go unoticed as Dillon recovered it. And there Brady almost threw an interception! And people actually think he's a good QB? Chad would have NEVER thrown that ball and he would have NEVER fumbled the other ball in that situation. This has gotta be the most overated team of all time and I can't wait for the Jets to beat the sh*t out of them. We are going to embarrass them.

[#1PaFan]

HOLY Crap!!!!

[#1PaFan]

HOW did Manning NOT see McGinest blitzing there??? That looked like a Rookie mistake.

Come on, OT!

[Pomp]

Long FG here...

[Gringaloca]

48 yard FG attempt to Tie?...T/O.....with :24 seconds....:eek:


Wide RIGHT!!!!.....:D

[Pomp]

Dammit!!

[#1PaFan]

He MISSED it!!! He Norwooded the damn kick. UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

Wow, though, hell of a game.

[PinstripePride]

That was an AMAZING way to start the season. Sucks the Colts lost, but DAMN what a game. :gulp:

[Pomp]

Vanderjagt was perfect last year.

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by Pomp
Vanderjagt was perfect last year.

That miss cost me some points damit!! :lol:

[JeffWeaverFan]

I knew he was going to miss it. The Patriots are the luckiest team of all time so he had to miss it. It's complete bullsh*t but their luck is going to run out soon. They are going to miss the playoffs. I can't wait until the Jets embarrass this team. We aren't just going to win, we are going to dominate and it's going to be fantastic.

[#1PaFan]

Congrats Gring!! :gulp:

That was one helluva start to the season, Folks. :smokin:

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by #1PaFan
Congrats Gring!! :gulp:

That was one helluva start to the season, Folks. :smokin:

No congrats due, PA....well $$$ wise, anyway. That 1/2 point kills me every time!...:(

But here's to my Meeech-i-gan boy....Tom Brady & the Bunch!....:gulp:

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
I knew he was going to miss it. The Patriots are the luckiest team of all time so he had to miss it. It's complete bull................ but their luck is going to run out soon. They are going to miss the playoffs. I can't wait until the Jets embarrass this team. We aren't just going to win, we are going to dominate and it's going to be fantastic.

Wishful thinking. :lol: :lol: :lol: Luck has nothing to do with it. Brady was simply spectacular (except the INT)!
WTG, Pats!!! :gulp:

[NYYFAN]

Boston-0
Seattle-7 in the 7th...

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Wishful thinking. :lol: :lol: :lol: Luck has nothing to do with it.
WTG, Pats!!! :gulp:
Luck has everything to do with it. Vanderjagt misses his first FG in over a year? That's luck. Manning can't see a blitz coming when it wasn't even his blind side? That's luck. James fumbling on the goal line? That's luck. I'll be surprised if you guys break .500 this year.

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Wishful thinking. :lol: :lol: :lol: Luck has nothing to do with it. Brady was simply spectacular (except the INT)!
WTG, Pats!!! :gulp:

Exactamundo, Web'....luck/schmuck....Pats got one helluva team!

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Luck has everything to do with it. Vanderjagt misses his first FG in over a year? That's luck. Manning can't see a blitz coming when it wasn't even his blind side? That's luck. James fumbling on the goal line? That's luck. I'll be surprised if you guys break .500 this year.

Stop bogarting that spliff you are smoking.

[SuperMario66]

That game was horrible. Should have ended in a tie. That would have been fitting.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Stop bogarting that spliff you are smoking. :lol:
That was funny but I still stand by everything I said.

[Gringaloca]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Luck has everything to do with it. Vanderjagt misses his first FG in over a year? That's luck. Manning can't see a blitz coming when it wasn't even his blind side? That's luck. James fumbling on the goal line? That's luck. I'll be surprised if you guys break .500 this year.

Missing a FG is luck for the Pats?....No...that's incompetence.
Can't see a blitz.....unlucky that he doesn't have eyes in the side of his head?...oooh-kay
Fumbling on the one yard line....again "incompetence".

Luck had nothing to do with the Patriots winning this game!....My "bad' luck caused me to lose a 'hunge' by a stinkin' 1/2 point!:D

[PinstripePride]

C'mon JFW, they were beat. Vandy might not have missed if the FG was closer - i.e. if Manning wasn't sacked. But he was, and it wasn't luck by which it happened. Brady played a helluva game.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by PinstripePride
C'mon JFW, they were beat. Vandy might not have missed if the FG was closer - i.e. if Manning wasn't sacked. But he was, and it wasn't luck by which it happened. Brady played a helluva game.
Manning should have seen the blitz...

Brady had an average game but he tried to gve the Colts the game twice in the final drive. Once when he fumbled and the other when he threw an AWFUL pass that should have been picked. Of course, those will be forgotten. Chad would have never made those plays.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by Gringaloca


Make that 7-0...and the Seattle/Boston GT in Around the Majors is suspicously(sp?) absent of Boston fan forumers.....;) Go figure..:D


well, there was a Patriots game that a few may have been watching...

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
The Patriots are the luckiest f*cking team I've ever seen. Edge fumbles on the freaking goal line and of coruse the patriots recover. It's complete crap. And there's Tom Brady fumbling in a BIG spot but of coruse that will go unoticed as Dillon recovered it. And there Brady almost threw an interception! And people actually think he's a good QB? Chad would have NEVER thrown that ball and he would have NEVER fumbled the other ball in that situation. This has gotta be the most overated team of all time and I can't wait for the Jets to beat the sh*t out of them. We are going to embarrass them.



ever think that maybe it isn't luck? Edge fumbles at goal line and Pats recover is lucky, yet it is also lucky that Brady almost threw an int? do you see the inconsistency here? are the Yanks "lucky" with al their "come from behind" wins, or do you think that there just might be something else at work?

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
I knew he was going to miss it. The Patriots are the luckiest team of all time so he had to miss it. It's complete bullsh*t but their luck is going to run out soon. They are going to miss the playoffs. I can't wait until the Jets embarrass this team. We aren't just going to win, we are going to dominate and it's going to be fantastic.


again, re. luck: not lucky that McGinest sacked Peyton, pushing the FG attempt from 36 to 48 (or whatever it was)

also, back to the fumbles: both were knocked out -- why? b/c the Pats have good defenders who are good at focring fumbles. That isn;t luck, it is skill.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Luck has everything to do with it. Vanderjagt misses his first FG in over a year? That's luck. Manning can't see a blitz coming when it wasn't even his blind side? That's luck. James fumbling on the goal line? That's luck. I'll be surprised if you guys break .500 this year.


actually, none of those are luck. Don't take this the wrong way, but have you watched football for long? Have you ever played?

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by cubswin



actually, none of those are luck. Don't take this the wrong way, but have you watched football for long? Have you ever played?

Don't bother arguing with him about the Pats; it would be like arguing with me about the Redskins.

The Pats were able to capitalize on the breaks they got. The Colts weren't. Good teams are able to do that. It was not a convincing win, but a win is a win is a win.

There are 15 more games for them to play, but tentatively, after this game, the Pats need to look at why the Colts were able to commit 3 turnovers and still come that close to being in position to win (run defense).

In the end, though, they were able to stop the Colts where/when it matters most--in the red zone--and deserve credit for that. It doesn't matter if a team is able to run up and down the field on you all day if you don't let them in the end zone enough times to beat you.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35


Don't bother arguing with him about the Pats; it would be like arguing with me about the Redskins.

The Pats were able to capitalize on the breaks they got. The Colts weren't. Good teams are able to do that.

There are 15 more games for them to play, but tentatively, after this game, the Pats need to look at why the Colts were able to commit 3 turnovers and still come that close to being in position to win (run defense).

In the end, though, they were able to stop the Colts where/when it matters most--in the red zone--and deserve credit for that. It doesn't matter if a team is able to run up and down the field on you all day if you don't let them in the end zone enough times to beat you.


Yup. Only thing that keeps me from being too concerned is that the Pats D typically takes a while to gel. I think they have the personnel, unlike 2 years ago. (Also, James looked good, and if he really is back, he's always tough.)

I was surprised they didn't run more themselves as the game went on, particularly the last few possessions. Now that they have Dillon, they need to use him differently than they would Antowain Smith.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by cubswin



actually, none of those are luck. Don't take this the wrong way, but have you watched football for long? Have you ever played?

I completely agree, cubs. The Patriots have a very good, well coached, football team. They will improve greatly, once the defense gets a handle on the penalty situation.

In regards to JWF, I believe that his intense hatred (just a wild guess ;) ) of the Patriots, is clouding his ability to rationalize.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35

There are 15 more games for them to play, but tentatively, after this game, the Pats need to look at why the Colts were able to commit 3 turnovers and still come that close to being in position to win (run defense).


Penalties!

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Penalties!

That too!

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by cubswin



again, re. luck: not lucky that McGinest sacked Peyton, pushing the FG attempt from 36 to 48 (or whatever it was)

also, back to the fumbles: both were knocked out -- why? b/c the Pats have good defenders who are good at focring fumbles. That isn;t luck, it is skill.
I believe the second fumble was from a helmet hitting the ball. I call that luck. And the first fumble should have been overturned in my opinion.

Yes, McGinest sacked Payton to force the longer field goal but Vanderjagt should still have made the 48 yarder. Not to mention, Manning should have seen the blitz coming... Maybe luck isn't the right word.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by cubswin



actually, none of those are luck. Don't take this the wrong way, but have you watched football for long? Have you ever played?
I've watched football for a while now. Probably since I was like 11 or 12 and I'm 20 now. And no, I've never played football for a real team unless you count playing for 1 year in 5th grade.

As I said before, maybe luck isn't the right word but it seems like the balls always bounce in the right direction for the Patriots.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan
In regards to JWF, I believe that his intense hatred (just a wild guess ;) ) of the Patriots, is clouding his ability to rationalize.
I am the first to admit that that is definately a part of it.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


I completely agree, cubs. The Patriots have a very good, well coached, football team. They will improve greatly, once the defense gets a handle on the penalty situation.

In regards to JWF, I believe that his intense hatred (just a wild guess ;) ) of the Patriots, is clouding his ability to rationalize.


Penalties hurt them, but they tend to get penalized a fair bit -- typically, though, it's less in bad situations (eg, 3rd downs), and even when a bad situation, the defense steps up to make up for it. I think they naturally get penalized, despiute good coaching and fairly disciplined play, due to aggressiveness.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

I believe the second fumble was from a helmet hitting the ball. I call that luck. And the first fumble should have been overturned in my opinion.

Yes, McGinest sacked Payton to force the longer field goal but Vanderjagt should still have made the 48 yarder. Not to mention, Manning should have seen the blitz coming... Maybe luck isn't the right word.


It was a hand on the 2nd one, and the first clearly was a fumble -- watched multiple times on tivo slo-mo.

"Should have made" the 48 yarder? I don't know where the stats wouldbe found, but I'd guess that the % of 48-yarders made is less than 50/50. Add in wind and rain...

And if Manning should have seen the blitz, maybe he just isn't that good...

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by cubswin



It was a hand on the 2nd one, and the first clearly was a fumble -- watched multiple times on tivo slo-mo.

"Should have made" the 48 yarder? I don't know where the stats wouldbe found, but I'd guess that the % of 48-yarders made is less than 50/50. Add in wind and rain...

And if Manning should have seen the blitz, maybe he just isn't that good...
OK, I'll take your word for it. What I actually saw and how I remember it can change dramatically.

Vanderjagt is a very good field goal kicker and possibly the best in the league. I think that he would say he should have made it. I believe the wind had died down by that point also.

I agree. Manning, like Brady, is overated.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

...As I said before, maybe luck isn't the right word but it seems like the balls always bounce in the right direction for the Patriots.



That may be so -- b/c it isn't luck, as you (sort of) acknowledge. It's like calling Buckner's play bad luck -- in fact, it was the result of poor managing and poor defensive skills. May seem "unlucky," but there's a reason for it that is quite rational.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

...What I actually saw and how I remember it can change dramatically...


:lol:

re. vanderjagt, everybody has an off day (eg, Brady's interception -- though even that was the receiver's fault to a large degree). Not sure re. wind at that point. But I'd agree with you had it been the 35-yarder he had missed -- that is getting lucky, as any kicker should make it.

[#1PaFan]

Luck??? Well, let me just say that good teams make their own luck. :)

It was a helluva game. And, the better team won. BTW, Brady was 26/38 for 335 yards and 3 TDs. I think I'd call that a pretty darn good performance.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

Originally posted by Socal Pinstriper
NE is a 3.5 point favorite. That sounds about right. I'll take the points, and look forward to a great opening night.

It doesn't happen often, but I was right on all counts. Great game, and always nice to have that half point.:D

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
I knew he was going to miss it. The Patriots are the luckiest team of all time so he had to miss it. It's complete bullsh*t but their luck is going to run out soon. They are going to miss the playoffs. I can't wait until the Jets embarrass this team. We aren't just going to win, we are going to dominate and it's going to be fantastic.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Here's a prediction...

Cincy will beat the Jests.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[RIyankee]

Random Thoughts...

- The Colts brought their "A" game, the Pats, their "B" game

- The "point of emphasis" calls are just ridiculous.

- The Colts got lucky when Deion Branch made a colossal blunder on that punt return. The perception is if you win you're lucky - especially if you hate the winning team.

- I'll take Tom Brady over any QB in the league right now. At least, the gap between him and Peyton Manning is all but closed.

- Vanderjagt made a complete jackass out of himself.

- As great as the Colts played they couldn't make the plays that mattered most.

- The Pats "D" is cause for concern but will get better as the season progresses.

- What's next, an NFL mid-season gala featuring Britney Spears, Marc Anthony, and Faith Hill??? Is there no end to the hype???

- Pats over Arizona in WK 2 (2-0). :D



.

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by RIyankee
Random Thoughts...

- The Colts brought their "A" game, the Pats, their "B" game

- I'll take Tom Brady over any QB in the league right now. At least, the gap between him and Peyton Manning is all but closed.


No offense, but that's an absolute farce. If that's the Colts "A" game (fumbling at the goal line down by 3 with time running out, throwing a pick close to the endzone earlier in the game, and missing a field goal to tie the game with 20 seconds left) they are going to be much worse than I thought they'd be this year.

And nothing against Tom Brady, who continues to get the job done, but you could put Manning in a wheelchair and I'm still taking him over Brady.

[NYYFAN]

So I want to know are we going to disect every game this season...next up Phins and Titans Saturday...:D

BTW, the wind was swirling and that may have helped the FG miss...

[cubswin]

Originally posted by RIyankee
,,,- The "point of emphasis" calls are just ridiculous...



What are those?

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


...And nothing against Tom Brady, who continues to get the job done, but you could put Manning in a wheelchair and I'm still taking him over Brady.


"continues to get the job done" -- maybe you didn't mean it this way, but usually when I hear that re. QBs, it means that they didn't eprform well but won. Is that what you're trying to claim, or is it more simple, that he got the job done?

re. Manning: take him, wheelchair or not, v. Brady, and you lose -- just like Manning has done EVERY time he has played him.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by #1PaFan

It was a helluva game. And, the better team won. BTW, Brady was 26/38 for 335 yards and 3 TDs. I think I'd call that a pretty darn good performance.
Those are good numbers but the Colts defense sucks and they were playing without Doss for most of the game. And he still almost gave the game away with his fumble and near interception in the Pats last possession. Great QB's don't do that.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by RIyankee


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Here's a prediction...

Cincy will beat the Jests.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Not a chance in hell. Jets will probably go in the range of 12-4 to 14-2 this year.:O

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

... And he still almost gave the game away with his fumble and near interception in the Pats last possession. Great QB's don't do that.


Great QBs don't "almost" give games away with "near" interceptions?

who, btw, do you consider to be, or have been, great QBs?

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by cubswin
re. Manning: take him, wheelchair or not, v. Brady, and you lose -- just like Manning has done EVERY time he has played him.

Because the Pats have a better team and a genius for a coach. If you were the Pats and were offered Manning for Brady straight up right now, would you do it?

If not, it's a lot like the Yankee fans who said they hypothetically wouldn't have traded Jeter for A-Rod a few years ago

[PinstripePride]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Not a chance in hell. Jets will probably go in the range of 12-4 to 14-2 this year.:O

Don't get too excited. That rush D still sucks.

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Those are good numbers but the Colts defense sucks and they were playing without Doss for most of the game. And he still almost gave the game away with his fumble and near interception in the Pats last possession. Great QB's don't do that.

Chad Pennington has never fumbled or thrown a pick to blow a game? Come on, JWF!

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Because the Pats have a better team and a genius for a coach.

Brady has proven his greatness in two SBs. He made the system not the other way around.

Originally posted by SheffMVP11

If you were the Pats and were offered Manning for Brady straight up right now, would you do it?
If not, it's a lot like the Yankee fans who said they hypothetically wouldn't have traded Jeter for A-Rod a few years ago

Brady's numbers will be comprable to Peyton's this season. Marvin Harrison is slowing down due to age and wear.

To answer your question. No. Brady is the best QB in football right now. Great QBs lead their team to victory when the chips are down. Brady did it in two SBs, and led the Pats last night with a brilliant performance.
He's for real.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11

And nothing against Tom Brady, who continues to get the job done, but you could put Manning in a wheelchair and I'm still taking him over Brady.

Manning is 0-6 against the Pats at Foxboro. He is 0-3 versus Brady. I think I'll take Brady. He's a WINNER!

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Manning is 0-6 against the Pats at Foxboro. He is 0-3 versus Brady. I think I'll take Brady. He's a WINNER!

I love the logic provided by the Brady-lovers.

Shane Spencer has 3 World Series rings. Barry Bonds has zero. Why don't the Giants trade Bonds to the Yanks for Spencer then? After all, Spencer is a WINNER!

:rolleyes:

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by RIyankee
Brady's numbers will be comprable to Peyton's this season.

Can you look into your crystal ball and give me tonight's lottery numbers as well? The fact that you honestly think Brady is a better QB than Manning tells me everything I need to know: it's pointless to discuss football with you.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


I love the logic provided by the Brady-lovers.

Shane Spencer has 3 World Series rings. Barry Bonds has zero. Why don't the Giants trade Bonds to the Yanks for Spencer then? After all, Spencer is a WINNER!

:rolleyes:

There is a HUGE difference between a role player and one who occupies one of the most important positions on the team. Brady's contributions to the Patriot's success cannot be compared to Spencer's to the Yanks. Brady is a two-time Superbowl MVP, who engineered game-winning drives, late in both games.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Because the Pats have a better team and a genius for a coach. If you were the Pats and were offered Manning for Brady straight up right now, would you do it?

If not, it's a lot like the Yankee fans who said they hypothetically wouldn't have traded Jeter for A-Rod a few years ago


As the pats, no way. What is the upside? If I were starting a team from scratch, I might go with Manning, b/c I think that he could win more games "on his own" -- like Bledsoe. However, if I have 2 teams that are very good and I want to win it all, no way I take Manning over Brady. Frankly, I don't see much evidence that Manning is a "winner," and that is an intangible that is important to a QB.

I think part of the comparison w/Jeter is fair, but there is a difference b/t the shortstop in baseball and the QB in football.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35


Chad Pennington has never fumbled or thrown a pick to blow a game? Come on, JWF!


No, he's done that. What Pennington wouldn't do is ALMOST fumble the ball away or thrown an INT to lose it. Big difference! :lol:

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


I love the logic provided by the Brady-lovers.

Shane Spencer has 3 World Series rings. Barry Bonds has zero. Why don't the Giants trade Bonds to the Yanks for Spencer then? After all, Spencer is a WINNER!

:rolleyes:


Was Spencer the 2-time WS MVP? Was he a team leader? Did he put up good #s, even if they weren't the best numbers?

Great analogy.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Can you look into your crystal ball and give me tonight's lottery numbers as well? The fact that you honestly think Brady is a better QB than Manning tells me everything I need to know: it's pointless to discuss football with you.


If Manning is so great, how did he manage to give away the game last night? Shouldn't a great QB know not to get sacked in that situation? Also, why does a great QB throw 4 INTs in the conference championship?

Manning is Marino-lite, imo. Great stats, but never wins.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by cubswin

... Manning is Marino-lite, imo. Great stats, but never wins.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


There is a HUGE difference between a role player and one who occupies one of the most important positions on the team. Brady's contributions to the Patriot's success cannot be compared to Spencer's to the Yanks. Brady is a two-time Superbowl MVP, who engineered game-winning drives, late in both games.

I purposely exaggerated the example. Manning is a better individual player than Brady, nuff said

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by cubswin
Frankly, I don't see much evidence that Manning is a "winner," and that is an intangible that is important to a QB.

You're talking as if this guy has never been to the playoffs before. He posted a 158.3 QB rating last year in the first round of the playoffs vs. Denver, then a 138.8 in the next round vs. the Chiefs. He led his team to the AFC Championship game where they were beat by a better team. If that's not a "winner" I don't know what is.

The Brady lovefest has reached a sickening point to where his groupies are now even going to the level of belittling one of the best (if not the best) QBs in the league.

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by cubswin



Was Spencer the 2-time WS MVP? Was he a team leader? Did he put up good #s, even if they weren't the best numbers?

Great analogy.

Glad to see you also took the overblown analogy lightly :rolleyes:

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by cubswin



If Manning is so great, how did he manage to give away the game last night? Shouldn't a great QB know not to get sacked in that situation? Also, why does a great QB throw 4 INTs in the conference championship?

Manning is Marino-lite, imo. Great stats, but never wins.

This is getting dumb.

If Barry Bonds is such a great player, why has he struck out 31 times this year?

That's what you sound like to me. You're nitpicking at the career of a guy who has thrown for more than 4000 yards in 5 consecutive seasons (has Brady ever done that?)

And Marino is the greatest QB ever. Oh wait, Trent Dilfer has a ring though, so he must have been better :rolleyes:

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Can you look into your crystal ball and give me tonight's lottery numbers as well? The fact that you honestly think Brady is a better QB than Manning tells me everything I need to know: it's pointless to discuss football with you.

In a nutshell...

Two SB MVPs, 6-0 postseason record. Outplayed Peyton in overall head-to-head competition. Currently leading his team to 16 straight wins. My arguments are based on results. All I read from you is bad anologies, endless hypotheticals and endless straw grasping. Two years ago I would have agreed with you but I see every game this team plays and Brady gets better every year. Tom Brady is a great QB. Deal with it.

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by RIyankee
In a nutshell...

Two SB MVPs, 6-0 postseason record. Outplayed Peyton in overall head-to-head competition. Currently leading his team to 16 straight wins.

In a nutshell, those are all a product of playing on a better team / under a better coach, a fact you continually ignore to fit your argument (actually it's more of an absurdity than an argument).

Originally posted by RIyankee
My arguments are based on results. All I read from you is bad anologies, endless hypotheticals and endless straw grasping.

My results would be Manning's statistics, which blow Brady's away. You can go look those results up if you want. You're attempting to cover them up by hiding Brady behind an awesome team he's been on.

Manning is better than Brady. It's not that close. I realize you'll never deal with it though, not really my problem

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


I purposely exaggerated the example. Manning is a better individual player than Brady, nuff said


that's great for the QB challenge or whatever those ofseason skills tests are. A QB's "individual" ability is pretty meaningless, however.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


... If that's not a "winner" I don't know what is.

The Brady lovefest has reached a sickening point to where his groupies are now even going to the level of belittling one of the best (if not the best) QBs in the league.


winner: Brady

Manning will be a winner when he actually wins

Manning has great skills, but I've always felt he was overrated. Has nothing to do with Brady. I was a Bledsoe fan, and i didn't like the idea of Brady taking his job b/c of injury. But you know what? I was flat out wrong on it. I can admit it. And Manning is pretty similar to Bledsoe in this comparison.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


This is getting dumb.

If Barry Bonds is such a great player, why has he struck out 31 times this year?

That's what you sound like to me. You're nitpicking at the career of a guy who has thrown for more than 4000 yards in 5 consecutive seasons (has Brady ever done that?)

And Marino is the greatest QB ever. Oh wait, Trent Dilfer has a ring though, so he must have been better :rolleyes:


Marino is not the greatest ever. Montana, for one. And Elway. Marino has better #s, but they won. But you probably thought Fouts was better than those guys, too. After all, he put up some staggering yardage #s, too. And even if they didn't win, those Charger teams were probably among the best ever, too -- I mean, what offensive production!

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Glad to see you also took the overblown analogy lightly :rolleyes:


You'er the one who posted a stupid analogy. Don't be surprised when people are dismissive of it.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


I purposely exaggerated the example. Manning is a better individual player than Brady, nuff said

Your brilliance astounds me.

[cubswin]

What was that measurement supposed to be, showing the baseball "equivalent" of the pass speed? In what way is it supposed to be equivalent? (I've got to think this little gimmick is going to fall away quickly...)

[deranged2005]

Put Manning on the Pat's and he'll have a couple Super Bowl rights too.

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by deranged2005
Put Manning on the Pat's and he'll have a couple Super Bowl rights too.

Exactly, and it's funny that Pats fans have too much of a hard-on for Brady to admit it

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Exactly, and it's funny that Pats fans have too much of a hard-on for Brady to admit it


Or that there's a rational reason to disagree. Like I said, I view Manning as Bledsoe-plus. The Pats don't win either year w/Bledsoe, imo, nor would they have done so w/Manning. They certainly don't win it last year if Manning unleashes a 4-INT performance for them.

These aren't teams where Brady was just along for the ride. He was driving it -- literally, in the case of the numerous clutch scoring drives he has engineered, not only regular season but more importantly in the postseason. You may view Manning's 4 INT performance as an anomaly. But I don't want any 4 INT anomalies from my QB.

In all seriousness, what qualities do you believe are important in a QB?

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by cubswin
These aren't teams where Brady was just along for the ride. He was driving it -- literally, in the case of the numerous clutch scoring drives he has engineered, not only regular season but more importantly in the postseason. You may view Manning's 4 INT performance as an anomaly. But I don't want any 4 INT anomalies from my QB.


I agree and have often stated that Brady is more than the Dilfer-esque Game Manager that many bill him as. He does more than not lose the game--his smarts, coolness, and accuracy, especially in tight situations, help WIN games for his team.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35


I agree and have often stated that Brady is more than the Dilfer-esque Game Manager that many bill him as. He does more than not lose the game--his smarts, coolness, and accuracy, especially in tight situations, help WIN games for his team.



wisdom far beyond her years...

[RIyankee]

In the 2nd half of SB38 when the Pats D was beaking down, on the sidelines Rodney Harrison and Ty Law had a little conversation...

RH: "We're going to lose this game!"
TL: "No we're not. Do you want to know why, because of that guy right there (Brady).

Dilfer had a great defense and played a weak NFC champion. In SB36, the Pats faced the "Greatest Show On Turf" in a domed stadium no less. In SB38, the Panthers were a better team than the 2001 Rams IMO. The 27-24 win was eerily similar to SB38. Each time Brady led his team to victory and has earned the confidence of his players.

BTW Manning and the Colts are in for a fight in 2004 becuase the Texans and Jags have greatly improved while Indy had stood pat. Despite how well the Colts played in WK #1, they won't make the playoffs this year IMO.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by cubswin
What was that measurement supposed to be, showing the baseball "equivalent" of the pass speed? In what way is it supposed to be equivalent? (I've got to think this little gimmick is going to fall away quickly...)


Also re. the game/broadcast:

At one point, they were discussing the rules on defenders hitting receivers and the changes this year, and pointing out the Pats D against the Colts last year. Madden then made a point about how the Colts and Dungy wouldn't use that as an excuse, however. But isn't that wrong? Wasn't Dungy complaining about it after the conference championship game last year?

[cubswin]

Originally posted by RIyankee
In the 2nd half of SB38 when the Pats D was beaking down, on the sidelines Rodney Harrison and Ty Law had a little conversation...

RH: "We're going to lose this game!"
TL: "No we're not. Do you want to know why, because of that guy right there (Brady)...


see, where you must have it wrong is who Law meant by "he" -- he surely was referring to Peyton, b/c Peyton is the best QB in the game.

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by RIyankee
RH: "We're going to lose this game!"
TL: "No we're not. Do you want to know why, because of that guy right there (Brady).


And this certainly proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Brady is a better QB than Manning?

It's funny that the same poster who accused me of using only "bad anologies, endless hypotheticals and endless straw grasping" could actually type what you just typed with a straight face. But then again it's been hard to take you seriously since the beginning of this thread.

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


And this certainly proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Brady is a better QB than Manning?

It's funny that the same poster who accused me of using only "bad anologies, endless hypotheticals and endless straw grasping" could actually type what you just typed with a straight face. But then again it's been hard to take you seriously since the beginning of this thread.


Law was right the Pats won SB38. Results aren't hypotheticals.

From your post, I gather you no longer find me "pointless" to discuss football with. :D

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by RIyankee
From your post, I gather you no longer find me "pointless" to discuss football with. :D

Nope, this has become more of a discussion of your weak arguing tactics ;)

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Nope, this has become more of a discussion of your weak arguing tactics ;)


Originally posted by SheffMVP11


And this certainly proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Brady is a better QB than Manning?

It's funny that the same poster who accused me of using only "bad anologies, endless hypotheticals and endless straw grasping" could actually type what you just typed with a straight face. But then again it's been hard to take you seriously since the beginning of this thread.

Stop whining just because you can't back up your argument with facts. Instead of whining why don't you answer CUBSWIN's question? "By what criteria do you measure the greatness of a QB?" The reason I can't keep a straight face is because reading your silly arguments gives me a chuckle. :lol:

Law was right the Pats won SB38. Results aren't hypotheticals.

Saying that Chad Penninginton would win SBs with the Pats is a hypothetical.

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by RIyankee
Stop whining just because you can't back up your argument with facts.

I've repeatedly referred to statistics as my results (which aren't hypothetical), but you continue to ignore them since in this case they piss all over your boy Brady.

Manning has thrown for more than 4000 yards in 5 consecutive seasons entering this year. Brady has NEVER done that. In fact, Manning's lowest total is 3739 - in his rookie year - and that's pretty damn close to Brady's best ever, 3764.

I realize that Manning has started 50 more games than Brady, but Manning is 28-years old, Brady is 27, so comparing their careers to this point is completely valid.

Manning has well more than double the amount of career passing yards than Brady has.

Manning has 169 career touchdown passes, Brady has 72.

Manning's QB rating has been over 90 in a season 4 different times in his career. Brady's highest is 86.5.

Despite playing in 48 more games than Brady, he's been sacked only 21 more times (to all the people knocking Manning for getting sacked the other night).

Now that the FACTS are right in front of your face, what are you gonna do, bring up another meaningless Ty Law quote?

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by RIyankee
Saying that Chad Penninginton would win SBs with the Pats is a hypothetical.
If Chad was the Pats QB they would be going for their 4th straight SB title right now...

And I'm going to stop arguing about who is the better QB and let Chad's results speak for itself from now on. Can't wait for Chad to tear up that Bengal defense tomorrow!!!

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


I've repeatedly referred to statistics as my results (which aren't hypothetical), but you continue to ignore them since in this case they piss all over your boy Brady.

Manning has thrown for more than 4000 yards in 5 consecutive seasons entering this year. Brady has NEVER done that. In fact, Manning's lowest total is 3739 - in his rookie year - and that's pretty damn close to Brady's best ever, 3764.

I realize that Manning has started 50 more games than Brady, but Manning is 28-years old, Brady is 27, so comparing their careers to this point is completely valid.

Manning has well more than double the amount of career passing yards than Brady has.

Manning has 169 career touchdown passes, Brady has 72.

Manning's QB rating has been over 90 in a season 4 different times in his career. Brady's highest is 86.5.

Despite playing in 48 more games than Brady, he's been sacked only 21 more times (to all the people knocking Manning for getting sacked the other night).

Now that the FACTS are right in front of your face, what are you gonna do, bring up another meaningless Ty Law quote?


so, are you basically saying that career stats are the key factor you'd consider re. who the best QB today is?

re. sacks -- a lot goes into getting sacked, as I'm sure you know, and situations are different. A sack in the situaiton the other night is a big deal. Like throwing 4 INTs in the biggest game of your career is a big deal.

Re. law's statement: you understand that that is a telling quote, don't you?

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

If Chad was the Pats QB they would be going for their 4th straight SB title right now...

And I'm going to stop arguing about who is the better QB and let Chad's results speak for itself from now on. Can't wait for Chad to tear up that Bengal defense tomorrow!!!



Why -- can he stop the run? B/c that was the Pats' biggest problem 2 years ago.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Nope, this has become more of a discussion of your weak arguing tactics ;)

Not the way I see it. You have been hooked, cleaned and fried.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


I've repeatedly referred to statistics as my results (which aren't hypothetical), but you continue to ignore them since in this case they piss all over your boy Brady.

Manning has thrown for more than 4000 yards in 5 consecutive seasons entering this year. Brady has NEVER done that. In fact, Manning's lowest total is 3739 - in his rookie year - and that's pretty damn close to Brady's best ever, 3764.

I realize that Manning has started 50 more games than Brady, but Manning is 28-years old, Brady is 27, so comparing their careers to this point is completely valid.

Manning has well more than double the amount of career passing yards than Brady has.

Manning has 169 career touchdown passes, Brady has 72.

Manning's QB rating has been over 90 in a season 4 different times in his career. Brady's highest is 86.5.

Despite playing in 48 more games than Brady, he's been sacked only 21 more times (to all the people knocking Manning for getting sacked the other night).

Now that the FACTS are right in front of your face, what are you gonna do, bring up another meaningless Ty Law quote?

Try grasping this stat:
Brady has two Superbowl championship rings (including 2 MVP's).
Manning has zero.

Nobody is arguing the fact that Manning has good individual stats. He just has'nt won the big one, when it counts. Brady has.

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Not the way I see it. You have been hooked, cleaned and fried.

Thanks for the opinion, person from the Brady campaign

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Thanks for the opinion, person from the Brady campaign

You're welcome. :)

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by cubswin
so, are you basically saying that career stats are the key factor you'd consider re. who the best QB today is?

Ummm, no.

You can't throw a guy like Bret Favre into the career stats discussion since he's 34-years old and has been around longer.

But it's legit to use career stats in a Manning/Brady debate since they are so close in age.

Originally posted by cubswin
A sack in the situaiton the other night is a big deal. Like throwing 4 INTs in the biggest game of your career is a big deal.

The more you harp on one game of a guy whose had a phenominal career of over 100 games, the more ridiculous you sound.

Originally posted by cubswin
Re. law's statement: you understand that that is a telling quote, don't you?

It's telling in that it means Brady's teammates have confidence in him. I guarantee you the Colts have confidence in Manning too. The Ty Law quote is completely irrelevant in a Manning vs. Brady discussion, yet the Brady camp here keeps tossing that out along with the reminder of 1 bad game Manning had, and then tell me I'm not using facts :lol: :rolleyes:

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan
Try grasping this stat:
Brady has two Superbowl championship rings (including 2 MVP's).
Manning has zero.

Again, a product of playing on a great team with a great coach.

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan
Nobody is arguing the fact that Manning has good individual stats. He just has'nt won the big one, when it counts. Brady has.

But people here are arguing that Brady is INDIVIDUALLY better than Manning. Which is wrong.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by cubswin




Why -- can he stop the run? B/c that was the Pats' biggest problem 2 years ago.
Chad can do EVERYTHING!!!;)

[REDSOXIN2004]

The colts did not play great in week 1. Both teams played kind of sloppy in my opinion. I think the 2001 rams were a better than the panthers of 2003. The offense was incredible and their D was better than they get credit for. They were far better than the pats(14 point under dogs). They were even on turf which is another huge rams advantage. The Pats just out played the rams. Their coaching was also far superior. I also think the Rams took the pats litely. Easily one of the top 3 upsets in super bowl history



Originally posted by RIyankee
In the 2nd half of SB38 when the Pats D was beaking down, on the sidelines Rodney Harrison and Ty Law had a little conversation...

RH: "We're going to lose this game!"
TL: "No we're not. Do you want to know why, because of that guy right there (Brady).

Dilfer had a great defense and played a weak NFC champion. In SB36, the Pats faced the "Greatest Show On Turf" in a domed stadium no less. In SB38, the Panthers were a better team than the 2001 Rams IMO. The 27-24 win was eerily similar to SB38. Each time Brady led his team to victory and has earned the confidence of his players.

BTW Manning and the Colts are in for a fight in 2004 becuase the Texans and Jags have greatly improved while Indy had stood pat. Despite how well the Colts played in WK #1, they won't make the playoffs this year IMO.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Again, a product of playing on a great team with a great coach.


Tony Dungy is a very good coach, as well as a class act, IMO. If there was any other coach that I would like to see win it all, it would be him. But not at the expense of the Patriots. Yes, the Partiots are fortunate to have, arguably, the best head coach in the game.


But people here are arguing that Brady is INDIVIDUALLY better than Manning. Which is wrong.

He very well may be. He may not have the same passing statistics that Manning has, or have the same ability in terms of being a pure passer. He may have certain attributes that Manning does not possess, like the ability to lead an offense, read defenses, etc. Perhaps his case can be compared to that of Derek Jeter. Sometimes, statistics alone do not completely measure the quality of a professional athlete.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by REDSOXIN2004
Easily one of the top 3 upsets in super bowl history
One that I lost a bit of money on too...

We all know the biggest SB upset though:D

[REDSOXIN2004]

im guessing the jets


Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

One that I lost a bit of money on too...

We all know the biggest SB upset though:D

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Ummm, no.

You can't throw a guy like Bret Favre into the career stats discussion since he's 34-years old and has been around longer.

But it's legit to use career stats in a Manning/Brady debate since they are so close in age.

The more you harp on one game of a guy whose had a phenominal career of over 100 games, the more ridiculous you sound.

It's telling in that it means Brady's teammates have confidence in him. I guarantee you the Colts have confidence in Manning too. The Ty Law quote is completely irrelevant in a Manning vs. Brady discussion, yet the Brady camp here keeps tossing that out along with the reminder of 1 bad game Manning had, and then tell me I'm not using facts :lol: :rolleyes:


Career stats do not necessarily reflect on what a guy can do today, regardless of age.

I wouldn't harp on one game if he had played in other big games. Comparing Brady's psotseason performance and SB performance to that of Manning isn't ridiculous. And if it is, the person to make that judgment probably shouldn't be throwing out career passing yards as the barometer or truly "ridiculous" analogies such as Brady/Spencer.

The Colts may well have confidence in manning. That is absolutely true. maybe you can find a similar quote from a Colts player.

You are using facts -- no question. Personally, though, I think they are the wrong ones.

You never answered my question before: what qualities and skills do you believe are most important in a great QB?

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

One that I lost a bit of money on too...

We all know the biggest SB upset though:D

Superbowl III - Jets v Colts?

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Again, a product of playing on a great team with a great coach.

But people here are arguing that Brady is INDIVIDUALLY better than Manning. Which is wrong.


I don't even know what "individually better" means. I've said before: if starting an expansion team from scratch, I'd probably take Manning over Brady, b/c he might win you a couple game where he is just a dominant passer. However, I think Brady is the guy who can make a good team great. I don't call that "individually better."

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Superbowl III - Jets v Colts?
You know it!

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan


Superbowl III - Jets v Colts?

A case can be made that the Pats over the Rams was the biggest SB upset. The Jets were 18 point underdogs primarily because the Packers crushed their AFL opponents in the first two SBs and since the AFL never played the NFL (in games that count) outside of the SB, the AFL was deemed inferior. That said, the 1968 Jets were a great team. The team they beat to get to SB-III, the Raiders, were capable of beating the Baltimore Colts.

The Patriots had lost to the Rams in Foxboro that same season and St.Louis was only one season removed from winning SB XXXIV. They compiled a 14-2 record as well. Meanwhile the Pats were an upstart, overacheiving team. Moreover, SBXXXVI was played indoors and on AstroTurf. Add it all up, a 12-pt. underdog (Pats) was being generous. I didn't think they had a chance.

Unlike the 1960s. since 1970, the AFC and NFC teams have played one another and have developed familiarity among them. The 1968 Colts were touted as one of the greatest team in the NFL. But the prognosticators at that time had no basis for comparisons.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by RIyankee


A case can be made that the Pats over the Rams was the biggest SB upset. The Jets were 18 point underdogs primarily because the Packers crushed their AFL opponents in the first two SBs and since the AFL never played the NFL (in games that count) outside of the SB, the AFL was deemed inferior. That said, the 1968 Jets were a great team. The team they beat to get to SB-III, the Raiders, were capable of beating the Baltimore Colts.

The Patriots had lost to the Rams in Foxboro that same season and St.Louis was only one season removed from winning SB XXXIV. They compiled a 14-2 record as well. Meanwhile the Pats were an upstart, overacheiving team. Moreover, SBXXXVI was played indoors and on AstroTurf. Add it all up, a 12-pt. underdog (Pats) was being generous. I didn't think they had a chance.

Unlike the 1960s. since 1970, the AFC and NFC teams have played one another and have developed familiarity among them. The 1968 Colts were touted as one of the greatest team in the NFL. But the prognosticators at that time had no basis for comparisons.
Good post. But, remember, the Patriots were lucky to beat the Rams in the SB;)

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Good post. But, remember, the Patriots were lucky to beat the Rams in the SB;)

They were really lucky they beat the Raiders on the nonfumble fumble...

[cubswin]

Originally posted by NYYFAN


They were really lucky they beat the Raiders on the nonfumble fumble...


I understand the sentiment that that was lucky, and I was surprised by it, too, but if you think about it, it's like saying that a team got lucky b/c the running back was down before he fumbled. Those are the rules. And anyway, they still needed to make the kick, which they did -- not luck.

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by cubswin



I understand the sentiment that that was lucky, and I was surprised by it, too, but if you think about it, it's like saying that a team got lucky b/c the running back was down before he fumbled. Those are the rules. And anyway, they still needed to make the kick, which they did -- not luck.

I saw the play and it was a fumble, the call on the field was a fumble and if not for Big Al being hated by the NFL the booth ref wouldn't of interceded...just my take...whats the saying in the playoffs, let the players decide the game and not the refs...

But NE deserved the win after that...the FG's were beyond excellent...

[cubswin]

Originally posted by NYYFAN


I saw the play and it was a fumble, the call on the field was a fumble and if not for Big Al being hated by the NFL the booth ref wouldn't of interceded...just my take...what the saying in the playoffs, let the players decide the game and not the refs...

But NE deserved the win after that...the FG's were beyong excellent...



I thought it was a fumble, too, and I still don't understand why the rule exists. But the rule does exist, and it w/o question was the right call in light of the rule. Same as fumbling after a knee has touched the ground -- not a fumble, by the rules.

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by cubswin




I thought it was a fumble, too, and I still don't understand why the rule exists. But the rule does exist, and it w/o question was the right call in light of the rule. Same as fumbling after a knee has touched the ground -- not a fumble, by the rules.

The play and rule could of been interpreted in many ways...any other team and it would of been a fumble...so lets agree to disagree....

[cubswin]

Originally posted by NYYFAN


The play and rule could of been interpreted in many ways...any other team and it would of been a fumble...so lets agree to disagree....


That's actually interesting. I'd be curious to know the rule interpretation -- I haven't heard anything like that. The only controversy I had heard was the rule itself, i.e., people didn't know it existed.

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by cubswin



That's actually interesting. I'd be curious to know the rule interpretation -- I haven't heard anything like that. The only controversy I had heard was the rule itself, i.e., people didn't know it existed.

Evidently neither did the ON field refs...

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by NYYFAN


Evidently neither did the ON field refs...

Mark, I assume you're at least around my age...

Do you remember Ben Dreith?

[cubswin]

Originally posted by RIyankee


Mark, I assume you're at least around my age...

Do you remember Ben Dreith?


was he involved with the Raiders/Pats game back in the 70s ('77?) when the Pats got screwed in favor of the Raiders?

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by RIyankee


Mark, I assume you're at least around my age...

Do you remember Ben Dreith?

I saw the game... A questionable call. But this conversation is about the fumble, not even steven stuff...

Anyone who watches football knows that was a fumble and NE fans can rationalize it as were even...but it really tainted the whole season and results...

[cubswin]

Originally posted by NYYFAN


I saw the game... A questionable call. But this conversation is about the fumble, not even steven stuff...

Anyone who watches football knows that was a fumble and NE fans can rationalize it as were even...but it really tainted the whole season and results...


Not rationalizing it as "we're even" -- it's the rule, even if it wasn't a well-known rule. I'd still like to hear any ambiguity - and I'm not doubting you, I just have never heard that, and I've seen the tuck rule applied on more than 1 occasion since then.

[Mandro Ramtinez]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Ummm, no.

You can't throw a guy like Bret Favre into the career stats discussion since he's 34-years old and has been around longer.

But it's legit to use career stats in a Manning/Brady debate since they are so close in age.



The more you harp on one game of a guy whose had a phenominal career of over 100 games, the more ridiculous you sound.



It's telling in that it means Brady's teammates have confidence in him. I guarantee you the Colts have confidence in Manning too. The Ty Law quote is completely irrelevant in a Manning vs. Brady discussion, yet the Brady camp here keeps tossing that out along with the reminder of 1 bad game Manning had, and then tell me I'm not using facts :lol: :rolleyes:

For a Yankees fan you sure do have a twisted way of viewing who's the better player.

Nomar is a better SS than Derek Jeter. Hands down. If you don't wish to agree then fine, A Rod is better than Jeter. Hands down. However, Jeter is the better player. Why? The all mighty Intangibles. Manning is a very good QB. So is Brady. Difference is, Brady wins when it matters, and Manning racks up stats on the losing end when it matters. If you can't grasp it then maybe you're just biased, or a Tom Brady hater.

2 SB's, 2SB MVP's, 3 years. I'll take that over Manning any day.

[NYYFAN]

Originally posted by cubswin



Not rationalizing it as "we're even" -- it's the rule, even if it wasn't a well-known rule. I'd still like to hear any ambiguity - and I'm not doubting you, I just have never heard that, and I've seen the tuck rule applied on more than 1 occasion since then.

My point is that it was a rule one one ever heard of prior to that game, and its a rule that's so hard to measure, it needs to be enforced via instant replay. The on field refs didn't call it. The booth ref interceded, even Bilicheck did ask for a replay. The replay should be to measure possession, not to see if another rule applies to the play. When do you see that happen?

The NFL has a case of ass for the Raiders ie Al Davis, so no surprise there...

Like I said NE earned the win after the "PLAY", with those two kicks and the rest is history...

[deranged2005]

Originally posted by Mandro Ramtinez
For a Yankees fan you sure do have a twisted way of viewing who's the better player.

Nomar is a better SS than Derek Jeter. Hands down. If you don't wish to agree then fine, A Rod is better than Jeter. Hands down. However, Jeter is the better player. Why? The all mighty Intangibles.

2 SB's, 2SB MVP's, 3 years. I'll take that over Manning any day.

For years, all I heard were "intangibles don't exist" and "I'd take Nomar over Jeter easily."

If Manning had that defense and the defensive mind in Mighty Bill, he'd have a few rings too. I'd put money on that.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by NYYFAN


They were really lucky they beat the Raiders on the nonfumble fumble...
Don't want to get involved with this whole argument between you and cubswin but that was the worst call of all time. I don't care what the rulebook states. It was a fumble and the Patriots got the BS call. It was complete crap.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

... I don't care what the rulebook states. ...Patriots got the BS call. It was complete crap.


This makes absolutely no sense, as I think you're aware. It is a rule. Did you think the Jets should have lost possession on Pennignton's fumble today? In terms of whether it should be in the rulebook, that's subjective, but the league had the opportunity to get rid of it and expressly kept it in place.

[CrazyNY]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Don't want to get involved with this whole argument between you and cubswin but that was the worst call of all time. I don't care what the rulebook states. It was a fumble and the Patriots got the BS call. It was complete crap. This post is one of the funnier ones I've read in a while. If you don't want to get involved, why are you making a comment about it at all? But if you're going to say something, might as make it absolutely ridiculous, right? You "don't care what the rulebook states." Huh? Why should there even be refs then. Heck, why have the rules? It's a bad rule, but it is a rule. And, by the way, the Jets had benefited from the exact same rule earlier in the year.

And NYYFan, the reason the Patriots didn't challenge the call was because it was in the last two minutes of the game, so they couldn't. You might not have known the rule and I definitely didn't know the rule, but there is no doubt that Bill Belichick knew the rule.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by cubswin



This makes absolutely no sense, as I think you're aware. It is a rule. Did you think the Jets should have lost possession on Pennignton's fumble today? In terms of whether it should be in the rulebook, that's subjective, but the league had the opportunity to get rid of it and expressly kept it in place.
OK, you are right. It's a rule but it's a BS rule.

Originally posted by CrazyNY

This post is one of the funnier ones I've read in a while. If you don't want to get involved, why are you making a comment about it at all? But if you're going to say something, might as make it absolutely ridiculous, right? You "don't care what the rulebook states." Huh? Why should there even be refs then. Heck, why have the rules? It's a bad rule, but it is a rule. And, by the way, the Jets had benefited from the exact same rule earlier in the year.

I'm glad I gave you a laugh. My wording might have been a little bit off. It's a rule but it's a bad rule and should not have been a rule. When the Jets benefitted from the exact same rule earlier in the season (I don't remember that) then the rule was a good rule. When the Patriots benefited from the rule, it was a bad rule. That's just the way I think.:)

You have to understand, if the Patriots win a game, it is luck, not talent.;)

[CrazyNY]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
You have to understand, if the Patriots win a game, it is luck, not talent.;) Fair enough--either way I got to go to a parade. :)

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

New article on ESPN Insider by Chris Mortenson about finally having to admit that Brady's the best as far as QBs go in the NFL.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=mortensen_chris

Very interesting, considering he, like many here, was a skeptic and slow to recognize the things that make Brady great. The chart at the bottom rating the QBs from 1-5 stars, rather than by pure statistics, is also interesting.

Please note, JWF, before you get too indignant, that he calls Chad, "a model quarterback", "lacking only a great arm", which I think is right on.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35

Please note, JWF, before you get too indignant, that he calls Chad, "a model quarterback", "lacking only a great arm", which I think is right on.
Well, I disagree with him calling Brady the best QB in the league... More importantly, about Chad, I think he had a very fair comment. Chad doesn't have a great arm (even though he did throw a beautiful deep ball to Jonathan Carter on Sunday for a 43 yard TD) but it is good enough. His pinpoint accuracy is the best in the league also. Saying that, putting him at the 4 star level is fair since Chad has yet to play a full season. I expect after this season that people will recognize Chad as a top 5 QB at least.

EDIT: I'd like to add that Daunte Culpepper does not deserve to be ranked in the top 5. Take away Randy Moss and I don't think he is nearly the QB he is right now. He also turns the ball over too much, something Chad rarely does.

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by RIyankee
Brady's numbers will be comprable to Peyton's this season. Marvin Harrison is slowing down due to age and wear.

To answer your question. No. Brady is the best QB in football right now.

Just out of curiousity - if you really did feel this way at the beginning of the season, do you still agree with it?

[twentyquestions]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
EDIT: I'd like to add that Daunte Culpepper does not deserve to be ranked in the top 5. Take away Randy Moss and I don't think he is nearly the QB he is right now. He also turns the ball over too much, something Chad rarely does.

Hehe good job Sheff digging up this thread. Culpepper's been without Moss for 3 games, and has posted a PR of 121.3, 117.9, and 97.5.

[cubswin]

Thanks for pulling this up today, and confusing me all to hell as to how I could have not realized that the Pats were playing today, instead thinking that the Colts were playing the Lions...

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Just out of curiousity - if you really did feel this way at the beginning of the season, do you still agree with it?


Now that you confuse me, I'll stick my neck out and say that, while I never expect Brady to have Manning's #s, I'd still take him any time over Manning.

In the Monday night game, Madden was making the Montana / Marino analogy, and I think it's a good one. Marino had better #s, Montana delivered in the clutch and was a winner. Just like I'd take Montana, I'll take Brady.

(Give me Manning, though, for a rotisserie league)

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by cubswin



Now that you confuse me, I'll stick my neck out and say that, while I never expect Brady to have Manning's #s, I'd still take him any time over Manning.

In the Monday night game, Madden was making the Montana / Marino analogy, and I think it's a good one. Marino had better #s, Montana delivered in the clutch and was a winner. Just like I'd take Montana, I'll take Brady.

(Give me Manning, though, for a rotisserie league)

:lol: Sorry about the confusion

My intention in digging this thread up was not to be a smug asshole either... Just watching that Colts game today and looking over Manning's numbers it shocked me how incredible he has been this season and I remembered the argument in this thread.

I guess I can't move you off that opinion of yours no matter how much I disagree.

Happy Turkey Day :)

[cubswin]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


:lol: Sorry about the confusion

My intention in digging this thread up was not to be a smug asshole either... Just watching that Colts game today and looking over Manning's numbers it shocked me how incredible he has been this season and I remembered the argument in this thread.

I guess I can't move you off that opinion of yours no matter how much I disagree.

Happy Turkey Day :)


:lol: no worries. It actually was kind of funny. I knew -- KNEW -- that the Colts were playing the Lions, and that the Pats weren't playing today, yet I did still have to check, of course...

Manning unquestionably had a great game and is having a great year. And he is a terrific QB. But I hope he continues to prove me right, as he did in the playoffs last year, when he crumbled after putting up gaudy stats.

Anyway, I think this is a debate that has different reasonable answers. And in some ways it is like marino/Montana or even Jeter/Nomar/Arod, though I'd contend that evaluating a SS is different than QB.

Regardless, I think they're both great QBs, and there's no shame in being one of the top QBs in the game, even if not the best. (And btw, for certain teams, at certain points in development, I probably would take Manning. For ex, if I had an expansion team or a team that I was trying to get to respectability or to the playoffs, I might prefer Manning, as I think he can probably do more (and less) on his own -- just not for a team that, with the right QB, could win it all.)

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Just out of curiousity - if you really did feel this way at the beginning of the season, do you still agree with it?


I promised myself I wouldn't post over Thanksgiving Day weekend.


Did you look at the stats from the KC/NE game?

Look at Deion Branch's numbers and know that he hadn't played since Week 2. Moreover Troy Brown was out of action for several games and TE Ben Watson (1st Round pick) is on IR. And the Pats played a tougher schedule. That said, the Pats are still 9-1 and I still don't know who you root for.

Out of curiosity, who do you think is better Brady or Chad?

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by twentyquestions


Hehe good job Sheff digging up this thread. Culpepper's been without Moss for 3 games, and has posted a PR of 121.3, 117.9, and 97.5.
Damn you Sheff for digging this thread up!!!;)

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by RIyankee
Out of curiosity, who do you think is better Brady or Chad?

I grew up in San Diego and root for the Chargers.

And to answer your question: Brady.

He's just no Manning

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by RIyankee
Out of curiosity, who do you think is better Brady or Chad? They both are very good QB's and, to be honest, Chad does have a better passer rating than Brady does this season (97.4-93.6). But, Chad has to show he can stay healthy all season and do it in the playoffs.

[SheffMVP11]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Damn you Sheff for digging this thread up!!!;)

Sorry bro :D

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by SheffMVP11


I grew up in San Diego and root for the Chargers.

And to answer your question: Brady.

He's just no Manning

Thanks for answering my question. I happen to like what SD has accomplished this year. :)

As for Manning, I'd rather have a QB who's been clutch and has played through adversity than one who hasn't, but pads his stats on weak oppenents...

Lions, and Texans, and Bears, oh my!!! :eek:
Lions, and Texans, and Bears, oh my!!! :eek:

[PinstripePride]

Originally posted by RIyankee

Lions, and Texans, and Bears, oh my!!! :eek:
Lions, and Texans, and Bears, oh my!!! :eek:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

[IncredibleByNature]

Originally posted by cubswin

Manning unquestionably had a great game and is having a great year. And he is a terrific QB. But I hope he continues to prove me right, as he did in the playoffs last year, when he crumbled after putting up gaudy stats.


Crumbled? He killed the Broncos and Chiefs (granted they had a bad defense as well), and ran into a vg Pats defense, a vg Pats team, who, as you know, went on to win the SB. Personally, I think you are taking away from the Pats defense when you say Manning crumbled. He wasn't at his best in that game, no, but the Pats defense sure didn't help.

RIyankee- "Peyton just pads his stats vs. the weaker teams.." Tsk tsk, I can sense some jealousy. He doesn't just "pad his stats vs. the weaker teams", he does pretty good against everyone. Better against some teams than others obviously, but he doesn't just do it against the bad teams. Anyways, isn't that what you are supposed to do? Kill the weaker teams and do well enough vs. the better teams? I mean, when you face one of the better teams, at times you will dominate them, but they didn't become one of the better teams by getting dominated week after week, they got to be one of the better teams b/c they play pretty damn good themselves. Also,

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4256
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5228

Do you still think their stats will be comparable?

BTW, I'm not trying to be an ass or anything if that's what it seems.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by IncredibleByNature


Crumbled? He killed the Broncos and Chiefs (granted they had a bad defense as well), and ran into a vg Pats defense, a vg Pats team, who, as you know, went on to win the SB. Personally, I think you are taking away from the Pats defense when you say Manning crumbled. He wasn't at his best in that game, no, but the Pats defense sure didn't help.
...


Broncs and Chiefs games were what I was referring to re. stats. I love the Pats and am not going to say anything against their D last year, but I was genuinely worried going into the Colts game, and fortunately Manning failed to do anything. Can't really separate b/t the Pats D being good and Manning being bad. Bottom line, I think, is that he didn't produce.

[RIyankee]

Originally posted by IncredibleByNature


RIyankee- "Peyton just pads his stats vs. the weaker teams.." Tsk tsk, I can sense some jealousy. He doesn't just "pad his stats vs. the weaker teams", he does pretty good against everyone. Better against some teams than others obviously, but he doesn't just do it against the bad teams. Anyways, isn't that what you are supposed to do? Kill the weaker teams and do well enough vs. the better teams? I mean, when you face one of the better teams, at times you will dominate them, but they didn't become one of the better teams by getting dominated week after week, they got to be one of the better teams b/c they play pretty damn good themselves. Also,

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4256
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5228

Do you still think their stats will be comparable?

BTW, I'm not trying to be an ass or anything if that's what it seems.


I didn't say the guy sucks. But that a QB should be judged on more than stats alone. Brady has played with a sub par O-Line, tougher schedule, and an injury-riddled WR corps. When you factor these into the equation, yes, they are comparable IMO.