Who would you rather your QB be for his career: Chad Pennington or Eli Manning?

[JeffWeaverFan]

This question is inspired from a segment on I, Max and was wondering what you guys all thought. The question is not who would you rather have for this year because I think that would be too easy and most people would go with Chad. So, who do you think will have the better career? I think most of you know I am going with Chad here in a landslide.:D

[Irony Of It All]

Definitely Eli...

[ConnYanksFan]

Eli. Pennington is going to be a tremendous QB for the Jets but you can't ignore the Manning the name. Eli will be at least be as good as his father and brother.

[JfromJersey]

Chad has the brains and instincts to be a very good QB for a long time, but Eli has the arm as well as the intelligence, and if he stays healthy, I think he will ultimately have the better career.

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

I picked Chad. No real reason... I just have a feeling.

[PinstripePride]

Right now, I'd go with Chad just because he's proven. Once Eli gets a season under his belt, then maybe I'll consider him.

[ABCBaseball]

it's clearly pennington
he had more succuss in college with a worse team, has already taken the jets to the playoffs and won a playof game and has the highest comp% of any hall of fame QB at this point in his carrer. the only thing keeping chad from being an all time great is his health

[Rich]

This one isn't close, Eli. He is more physically gifted than Pennington, and has comparable brains and poise. Pennington is very good, but Manning will be a once in a generation player. He will be even better than Peyton.

[ABCBaseball]

to call a guy coming of a so so college carrer a once in a generation player is a bit of a stretch
the teams in the NFL were about 33% 33% and 33% on who the best QB in the draft was thats why the chargers were thinking about trading the pick even before manning said he didn't want to play for them. there are people who know ALOT about football who think that manning was the THIRD best qb in the draft behind rothelsberger and rivers. being physically gifted is extreamly overrated for every peyton manning there is a ryan leaf for every drew bledsoe there is a rick mirer. give me a QB who maybe dosn't have the best tools but like brady pennington and before them joe montana a QB who KNOWS HOW TO WIN, get everybody involved and not turn the ball over. that beats so called tools any day of the week.

[NYYFAN]

Chad is a west coast type guy, I prefer a more vertical style QB...hence I'll go with Eli...at least I think Eli is more a vertical type QB...;)

[RIyankee]

Holy loaded polls Batman!!!

Tom Brady is better than both of them. He's got 2 SB Rings that prove it.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[ABCBaseball]

Originally posted by RIyankee
Holy loaded polls Batman!!!

Tom Brady is better than both of them. He's got 2 SB Rings that prove it.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
brady is a system QB that plays in the perfect system for him. there is NO DOUBT in my mind that if chad was on the pats and not brady they they would've still won those super bowls

[Rich]

Originally posted by ABCBaseball
to call a guy coming of a so so college carrer a once in a generation player is a bit of a stretch
the teams in the NFL were about 33% 33% and 33% on who the best QB in the draft was thats why the chargers were thinking about trading the pick even before manning said he didn't want to play for them. there are people who know ALOT about football who think that manning was the THIRD best qb in the draft behind rothelsberger and rivers. being physically gifted is extreamly overrated for every peyton manning there is a ryan leaf for every drew bledsoe there is a rick mirer. give me a QB who maybe dosn't have the best tools but like brady pennington and before them joe montana a QB who KNOWS HOW TO WIN, get everybody involved and not turn the ball over. that beats so called tools any day of the week.

Tom Couglin is as good a judge of QB talent as anyone walking the planet. I trust his assessment.

btw, Your breakdown is based on media spin.

The Chargers are idiots. Look at they was they have messed up the Rivers situation. They knew Eli wouldn't play for them, and it's now clear that he made the right decision.

Manning has it all.

[ABCBaseball]

it's not meida sipn that there were legit questions as to who was the best QB in the draft and that people who know alot about football disagreed on who to draft. i saw alll 3 play this year and i would've taken rothelsberger by FAR over manning. he had a much better carrer at miami of ohio with less talent around him then manning did at a big time SEC school with big time talent. and as far as coughlin drafting QB's he's only drafted one starter mark brunell who is a solid player but not great by any means and a backup in jon quinn who is a third stringer. and as far as having it "all" like i said before ryan leaf jeff george and rick mirer had it "all" too and look where they are.

[Rich]

Coughlin traded a lower round pick to Green Bay for Brunnell because he has an eye for talent. He didn't need another QB during his tenure in Jacksonville.

Rothlisberger played against inferior talent. Projecting him is a stretch.

If you want to compare Manning to George, there's is no point in having a discussion.

[ABCBaseball]

Originally posted by Rich
Coughlin traded a lower round pick to Green Bay for Brunnell because he has an eye for talent. He didn't need another QB during his tenure in Jacksonville.

Rothlisberger played against inferior talent. Projecting him is a stretch.

If you want to compare Manning to George, there's is no point in having a discussion.
you can't say coughlin is a great judge of talent because he only drafted so so in jaxonville and put his team in cap hell

people underrate the MAC all the time but it's ALOT better than you think. a few of those years the MAC was more competitive than the SEC. pennington is also out of the MAC as is byron leftwhich not to mention randy moss and a number of good NFL players.

as far as comparing manning to george i don't think manning will be a total bust like george was but i think he was the 2nd best QB in the draft and projects to have a decent NFL carrer. he won't be as good as his brother or any other of the elite QBs in the NFL

[Rich]

Originally posted by ABCBaseball

you can't say coughlin is a great judge of talent because he only drafted so so in jaxonville and put his team in cap hell

people underrate the MAC all the time but it's ALOT better than you think. a few of those years the MAC was more competitive than the SEC. pennington is also out of the MAC as is byron leftwhich not to mention randy moss and a number of good NFL players.

as far as comparing manning to george i don't think manning will be a total bust like george was but i think he was the 2nd best QB in the draft and projects to have a decent NFL carrer. he won't be as good as his brother or any other of the elite QBs in the NFL

One more time: Couglin didn't draft Brunnell. He saw the talent of a bench player on another team, and got him cheaply.

It's not the SEC.

I disagree.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by ABCBaseball

brady is a system QB that plays in the perfect system for him. there is NO DOUBT in my mind that if chad was on the pats and not brady they they would've still won those super bowls
Exactly, and the Jets would not be as good. I would take Pennington over Brady any day of the week.

[Euclis]

brady is a system QB that plays in the perfect system for him. there is NO DOUBT in my mind that if chad was on the pats and not brady they they would've still won those super bowls

jeter is a system SS that plays in the perfect system for him. there is NO DOUBT in my mind that if nomar was on the yankees and not jeter they they would've still won those world series.

hahaha.....seriously though, I'd take Eli. Too many people saying that he's going to be better than his brother for me to even think about Pennington.

[RIyankee]

Brady makes their system work. A "system" QB doesn't win two SB MVPs in 3 years. A "system" QB will struggle when his limitations are reached. Brady has never lost a postseason game. If that's luck, then he should quit the NFL and move to Las Vegas. It takes more than a strong arm to make a great QB (see Bledsoe and George). Charlie Weis has the most complicated system in the NFL and Brady has mastered it. How about this Chad vs. Brady comparison. Pennington took a year longer to develop (learning an easier system) than Brady. Chad looked flustered in his last postseason appearance against Oakland. Another quality of a great a QB is leadership - leading two game-winning drives in two SBs and being the offseason workout leader the last 3 years is the epitome of leadership. Here's another comparison. Brady had RB Antwain Smith behind him. Chad has RB Curtis Martin. I'm hearing about how great a team the Jets are. Yet, Pennington has accomplished nada, zilch, zero. If the Brady bashers want to hate him, that's fine. But calling a 2 time SB MVP a mediocre QB and constantly posting subjective "what-if", "what-could-have-been" arguments is the equivalent of Red Sox fans saying "Yankees Suck" and "Nomah's Bettuh".

BTW Jeter has 4 WS rings and is the undisputed leader of the AL's best team. He also played well in the 2003 ALCS with a ruptured tendon in his thumb. If funny how both Jeter and Brady are constantly bashed outside their teams sphere of fandom. They have much in common.

[ABCBaseball]

pennington was on a team the past few yaers with NO run d and an awful offensive coaching staff. brady has a D that gives him great FP all the time and the best coaching staff in the NFL. brady is in the right place at the right time. if their places were switched the teams would be in the same shape they are in now

[Euclis]

pennington was on a team the past few yaers with NO run d and an awful offensive coaching staff. brady has a D that gives him great FP all the time and the best coaching staff in the NFL. brady is in the right place at the right time. if their places were switched the teams would be in the same shape they are in now

You are really marginalizing Brady here, give him some credit (and this is coming from a former Bledsoe fan....it took me awhile to give Brady his due). Brady is in a system that is good for him, but he did not fall into a lucky situation. Up here where the team is followed VERY closely, its pretty much obvious to everyone that the one single player this team cannot afford to lose is Tom Brady. Every single defensive player can be replaced (i.e. Lawyer Milloy). The wide receivers are all above average but no studs. The RB situation is much improved this year with Dillon, but we won 2 superbowls without him. Vinatieri is great in the postseason, but was very average during the Pats regular season run last year. Belichick is the only member of the Patriots that is more valuable than Brady.

Do you have any actual evidence, statistical proof that Pennington would thrive to the extent that Brady has? Brady's WRs, TEs and RBs during the super bowls were all average at best. Brady's O line isn't very good either...Brady's quick release and very good decision making makes them look better than they are, which is below average. Definitely inferior to what Pennington had to work with. Who would you rather have, Curtis Martin or Antowain Smith? Santana Moss or Deion Branch? Pennington has been hurt, started only 21 games, has 5418 yards and 37 TD passes. Brady, despite being hampered all year with a bad shoulder, has started all 46 regular season games the Patriots have played since Bledsoe went down in the second game of 2001. Brady has 10,233 yards passing and 69 TDs. And two Superbowl MVP trophies (anyone can win one....win two, and its not just a coincidence, or luck). And is the most indispensible player on a team that is the consensus preseason favorite to repeat as Super Bowl Champs.

Now...what makes you think that Pennington, had he been Bledsoe's backup in 2001, would have done all that?

[Euclis]

I do believe, looking at Pennington's numbers, that he has the chance to be a very good QB. But saying he is better than Brady is quite a leap at this point.

[ABCBaseball]

Originally posted by Euclis


You are really marginalizing Brady here, give him some credit (and this is coming from a former Bledsoe fan....it took me awhile to give Brady his due). Brady is in a system that is good for him, but he did not fall into a lucky situation. Up here where the team is followed VERY closely, its pretty much obvious to everyone that the one single player this team cannot afford to lose is Tom Brady. Every single defensive player can be replaced (i.e. Lawyer Milloy). The wide receivers are all above average but no studs. The RB situation is much improved this year with Dillon, but we won 2 superbowls without him. Vinatieri is great in the postseason, but was very average during the Pats regular season run last year. Belichick is the only member of the Patriots that is more valuable than Brady.

Do you have any actual evidence, statistical proof that Pennington would thrive to the extent that Brady has? Brady's WRs, TEs and RBs during the super bowls were all average at best. Brady's O line isn't very good either...Brady's quick release and very good decision making makes them look better than they are, which is below average. Definitely inferior to what Pennington had to work with. Who would you rather have, Curtis Martin or Antowain Smith? Santana Moss or Deion Branch? Pennington has been hurt, started only 21 games, has 5418 yards and 37 TD passes. Brady, despite being hampered all year with a bad shoulder, has started all 46 regular season games the Patriots have played since Bledsoe went down in the second game of 2001. Brady has 10,233 yards passing and 69 TDs. And two Superbowl MVP trophies (anyone can win one....win two, and its not just a coincidence, or luck). And is the most indispensible player on a team that is the consensus preseason favorite to repeat as Super Bowl Champs.

Now...what makes you think that Pennington, had he been Bledsoe's backup in 2001, would have done all that?
the reason brady has his 2 rings and his 2 MVPs is the system he plays in. pennington has a better qb rating and comp% than brady and even though he has better parts on offense the past few years when he was healthy the D put him in bad field posision. the NE defense gives brady feild posision consistantly. brady also plays for the best coaching staff in the NFL and pennington has to deal with maybe the WORST offensive coordnator in the NFL. brady is good because he knows how to play within his system and dosn't make mistakes. that system dosn't ask him to win the games by himself. the jets team begins and ends with pennington. if chad was in the situation where he was in a system like brady was he would win just as much of not more than brady. i'm not sure that brady could carry a team the way pennington is asked to

[Euclis]

the reason brady has his 2 rings and his 2 MVPs is the system he plays in. pennington has a better qb rating and comp% than brady and even though he has better parts on offense the past few years when he was healthy the D put him in bad field posision. the NE defense gives brady feild posision consistantly. brady also plays for the best coaching staff in the NFL and pennington has to deal with maybe the WORST offensive coordnator in the NFL. brady is good because he knows how to play within his system and dosn't make mistakes. that system dosn't ask him to win the games by himself. the jets team begins and ends with pennington. if chad was in the situation where he was in a system like brady was he would win just as much of not more than brady. i'm not sure that brady could carry a team the way pennington is asked to

Over the last 2 years, Brady has averaged 35.3 pass attempts per game. Over the last 2 years, Pennington has averaged 27.8 pass attempts per game. Pennington has had the luxury of a workhorse RB (Martin), while Brady has had the luxury of working with a poor man's thunder and lightning (Smith/Faulk). Pennington has had a great wideout, Santana Moss, who had 74 catches, 1105 yards, 10 TDs last year. Brady's top receiver, Deion Branch, had 57 catches, 803 yards, 3 TDs. Who carries a bigger load? Is it Pennington, who throws fewer passes per game, has a better RB and a better #1 WR? Or is it Brady, who throws more than 7 extra passes a game to weaker wide receivers while opposing defenses key in on them, because the Smith/Faulk duo combined to give NE the second fewest rushing yards in the conference? (To be fair, the Jets ranked only 13th in rushing, but I'm pretty sure opposing defenses spent more time trying to stop Curtis Martin than they did whoever was playing RB for the Pats). Brady is undeniably the best player on the Pats offense over the last 3 years. Pennington was arguably the 3rd best player on the Jets offense. Who exactly is doing the carrying?

As for the field position argument...I'm having trouble finding numbers for average starting field position. Since you keep pushing that, maybe you can find something to back up your argument with. Anyways, as an observer of the pats over the last few seasons, it always seemed like we gave up a lot of yards (which would not lead to good field position for our offense), but usually held the line once our opponent got close.

2003 YPG allowed by the Pats: 291.6...7th
2002 YPG allowed by the Pats: 336.1...23rd
2001 YPG allowed by the Pats: 334.5...24th

2003 YPG allowed by the Jets: 332.4...21st
2002 YPG allowed by the Jets: 341.4...24th
2001 YPG allowed by the Jets: 322.1...19th

The Jets D doesn't look to good, and last year the Pats D was very good. But in 2002 and 2001, the two teams were basically even, and Brady looked better than too. Another thought...if the Patriots were consistently starting with better field position, meaning they had fewer yards to gain to get to the endzone, wouldn't they average fewer overall YPG than the Jets? Let's take a look:

2003 YPG by the Pats: 314.9...17th
2002 YPG by the Pats: 317.8...21st
2001 YPG by the Pats: 305.1...18th

2003 YPG by the Jets: 309.4...19th
2002 YPG by the Jets: 314.8...22nd
2001 YPG by the Jets: 299.7...23rd

Looks like the Jets and Patriots gained just about the same amount of yards over the last 3 years, doesn't it? The Pats have the marginable edge. 5 extra YPG last year, 3 extra YPG in 2002, 5 extra YPG in 2001. Very close. Then tell me, why does Brady have far more YPG (217.6) than Pennington (191.1) over the past 3 years? Brady has CARRIED the Pats offense the last 3 years...average receivers, below average offensive line, below average running backs. He's carried their offense to 2 Super bowls. What has Pennington carried anyone to?

The Pats D hasn't given up many runs, but has been middle of the road when it comes to allowing yards to the opposing team, which leads to bad field position. If you have them, I'd love to see some numbers regarding average field position. If you have them.

The only things (and I do mean the only) that Pennington has over Brady is completion % (66 to 62) and QB rating (95 to 86). The completion % difference is obvious: Defenses key in on Brady, as he has had no running game to protect him, and his WRs are generally not good enough to make the great catch (other than Troy Brown, who is getting old). Defenses have focused on Curtis Martin when they play the Jets, not Chad Pennington. Safeties have to keep an eye on Martin instead of double teaming WRs and TEs.

Pennington does have a much better career QB rating. That is due to a few things. First of all, great 2002 season. Pennington came out as an unknown, and did very well. I don't know what went on last year (I only saw the Jets when they played the Pats), but his rating nosedived to 83, worse than in any of Brady's 3 years as a starter. I'm not certain, but I can hazard a guess.

Despite playing 5 fewer games, Pennington's interception total doubled, from 6 to 12, in 2003. Martin declined in performance, and Pennington saw more pressure last year than before. Brady's interception totals have been pretty consistent (12-14-12), which explains partially why his QB rating is always in the mid 80's. Interceptions greatly hurt a QB's rating. Brady has more interceptions than Pennington because he is the more important option in the Pats offense...he makes more plays. Another important factor in determining QB rating are yards per attempt. Pennington has the lead here too (7.5 to 6.6). Why the difference? Could it be because Brady has not had a good RB, and has had to pass for more short gains than Pennington? Not having a good RB means that short gains must often be made by passing, hence Brady's lost average.

Look, Pennington looks like he might be a good QB, but how exactly do you figure that he carries a heaver load on the Jets than Brady does on the Pats? Brady has been our offense since he took over. Pennington has had two very good skill players.

Seriously though, if you can find numbers on average starting field position, I'd love to see them. I'm curious. You seem awfully convinced that Pennington is the better QB, so I'm hoping you can tell me why.

*edit-I went to the trouble to post all this, and I didn't even mention postseason performance:

Brady-6 games, 6 wins, 37 attempts per game, 60.5% completion rate, 227.3 YPG, 6 TDs, 3 INT.
Pennington-2 games, 1 win, 36 attempts per game, 55.6% completion rate, 202.5 YPG, 4 TDs, 2 INT.

It's safe to say Pennington isn't nearly as good under pressure as Brady.

[ABCBaseball]

Originally posted by Euclis


Over the last 2 years, Brady has averaged 35.3 pass attempts per game. Over the last 2 years, Pennington has averaged 27.8 pass attempts per game. Pennington has had the luxury of a workhorse RB (Martin), while Brady has had the luxury of working with a poor man's thunder and lightning (Smith/Faulk). Pennington has had a great wideout, Santana Moss, who had 74 catches, 1105 yards, 10 TDs last year. Brady's top receiver, Deion Branch, had 57 catches, 803 yards, 3 TDs. Who carries a bigger load? Is it Pennington, who throws fewer passes per game, has a better RB and a better #1 WR? Or is it Brady, who throws more than 7 extra passes a game to weaker wide receivers while opposing defenses key in on them, because the Smith/Faulk duo combined to give NE the second fewest rushing yards in the conference? (To be fair, the Jets ranked only 13th in rushing, but I'm pretty sure opposing defenses spent more time trying to stop Curtis Martin than they did whoever was playing RB for the Pats). Brady is undeniably the best player on the Pats offense over the last 3 years. Pennington was arguably the 3rd best player on the Jets offense. Who exactly is doing the carrying?

As for the field position argument...I'm having trouble finding numbers for average starting field position. Since you keep pushing that, maybe you can find something to back up your argument with. Anyways, as an observer of the pats over the last few seasons, it always seemed like we gave up a lot of yards (which would not lead to good field position for our offense), but usually held the line once our opponent got close.

2003 YPG allowed by the Pats: 291.6...7th
2002 YPG allowed by the Pats: 336.1...23rd
2001 YPG allowed by the Pats: 334.5...24th

2003 YPG allowed by the Jets: 332.4...21st
2002 YPG allowed by the Jets: 341.4...24th
2001 YPG allowed by the Jets: 322.1...19th

The Jets D doesn't look to good, and last year the Pats D was very good. But in 2002 and 2001, the two teams were basically even, and Brady looked better than too. Another thought...if the Patriots were consistently starting with better field position, meaning they had fewer yards to gain to get to the endzone, wouldn't they average fewer overall YPG than the Jets? Let's take a look:

2003 YPG by the Pats: 314.9...17th
2002 YPG by the Pats: 317.8...21st
2001 YPG by the Pats: 305.1...18th

2003 YPG by the Jets: 309.4...19th
2002 YPG by the Jets: 314.8...22nd
2001 YPG by the Jets: 299.7...23rd

Looks like the Jets and Patriots gained just about the same amount of yards over the last 3 years, doesn't it? The Pats have the marginable edge. 5 extra YPG last year, 3 extra YPG in 2002, 5 extra YPG in 2001. Very close. Then tell me, why does Brady have far more YPG (217.6) than Pennington (191.1) over the past 3 years? Brady has CARRIED the Pats offense the last 3 years...average receivers, below average offensive line, below average running backs. He's carried their offense to 2 Super bowls. What has Pennington carried anyone to?

The Pats D hasn't given up many runs, but has been middle of the road when it comes to allowing yards to the opposing team, which leads to bad field position. If you have them, I'd love to see some numbers regarding average field position. If you have them.

The only things (and I do mean the only) that Pennington has over Brady is completion % (66 to 62) and QB rating (95 to 86). The completion % difference is obvious: Defenses key in on Brady, as he has had no running game to protect him, and his WRs are generally not good enough to make the great catch (other than Troy Brown, who is getting old). Defenses have focused on Curtis Martin when they play the Jets, not Chad Pennington. Safeties have to keep an eye on Martin instead of double teaming WRs and TEs.

Pennington does have a much better career QB rating. That is due to a few things. First of all, great 2002 season. Pennington came out as an unknown, and did very well. I don't know what went on last year (I only saw the Jets when they played the Pats), but his rating nosedived to 83, worse than in any of Brady's 3 years as a starter. I'm not certain, but I can hazard a guess.

Despite playing 5 fewer games, Pennington's interception total doubled, from 6 to 12, in 2003. Martin declined in performance, and Pennington saw more pressure last year than before. Brady's interception totals have been pretty consistent (12-14-12), which explains partially why his QB rating is always in the mid 80's. Interceptions greatly hurt a QB's rating. Brady has more interceptions than Pennington because he is the more important option in the Pats offense...he makes more plays. Another important factor in determining QB rating are yards per attempt. Pennington has the lead here too (7.5 to 6.6). Why the difference? Could it be because Brady has not had a good RB, and has had to pass for more short gains than Pennington? Not having a good RB means that short gains must often be made by passing, hence Brady's lost average.

Look, Pennington looks like he might be a good QB, but how exactly do you figure that he carries a heaver load on the Jets than Brady does on the Pats? Brady has been our offense since he took over. Pennington has had two very good skill players.

Seriously though, if you can find numbers on average starting field position, I'd love to see them. I'm curious. You seem awfully convinced that Pennington is the better QB, so I'm hoping you can tell me why.

*edit-I went to the trouble to post all this, and I didn't even mention postseason performance:

Brady-6 games, 6 wins, 37 attempts per game, 60.5% completion rate, 227.3 YPG, 6 TDs, 3 INT.
Pennington-2 games, 1 win, 36 attempts per game, 55.6% completion rate, 202.5 YPG, 4 TDs, 2 INT.

It's safe to say Pennington isn't nearly as good under pressure as Brady.
Total yards per game dosn't reflect the fact that the jets defense of the past few years got KILLED by the run. now what that does it eat up time on the clock the jets were around 29th in the NFL the last 2 years in time of posession therefore pennington had less time to work with explaining the 7 fewer passes a game he had to throw. this also explains the YPG difference because chad just has less time to have the ball because the defence can't get off the field.

as far as brady having a lower rating because they have to throw more short passes, the jets offense is a west coast system they throw NOTHING but short passes. brady throws long MUCH more than pennington does. the fact that chad has a better YPA is a testiment to the fact that he puts his recievers in posision to get YAC.

lastly you said brady was better in 2002 as well (we can't judge 2001 because pennington didn't play) thats far from the truth i don't have the stats off hand but i know that pennington led the NFL in passer rating (107.3 a number brady has never come close to) and comp % and that year he single handedly led a team with an avg defense to a division title and a 41-0 playoff win while brady was blowing chance after chance to clinch a playoff spot in NE.

sure brady has his rings and he is a good player i don't mean to put him down but my contention is that if chad had been on those NE teams with that coaching staff they would have won just as much if not more than they have and if brady was on the jets they would not have done any better than they did with chad.

[Buckeye Yank]

OTHER - Ben Roethlisberger. :D

[ABCBaseball]

Originally posted by Buckeye Yank
OTHER - Ben Roethlisberger. :D
i'm a fan of big ben
i thought he was the best QB in the draft

i love MAC qb's too

[Euclis]

lastly you said brady was better in 2002 as well (we can't judge 2001 because pennington didn't play) thats far from the truth i don't have the stats off hand but i know that pennington led the NFL in passer rating (107.3 a number brady has never come close to) and comp % and that year he single handedly led a team with an avg defense to a division title and a 41-0 playoff win while brady was blowing chance after chance to clinch a playoff spot in NE.


Where did I say Brady was better in 2002? I specifically said that Pennington's 2002 season was great. Brady led a team with average defense to the SB in 2001, pennington led a team with average defense and a stud RB to the playoffs in 2002. And just for the record, the Jets made the playoffs over the Pats in 2002, but they both were 9-7. Pennington was pretty good in 2002, and they got the blowout playoff win....did they win the SB? Nope.

the fact that chad has a better YPA is a testiment to the fact that he puts his recievers in posision to get YAC.


Or is it a testiment that his receivers are better, and the Pats always had to pass on 3rd and short, because we didn't have Curtis Martin?

sure brady has his rings and he is a good player i don't mean to put him down but my contention is that if chad had been on those NE teams with that coaching staff they would have won just as much if not more than they have and if brady was on the jets they would not have done any better than they did with chad.

In 2002, Pennington had a great year, and the Jets made it to the playoffs. So based on that year, you think that had Pennington been a Patriot, that not only would he have repeated Brady's success, but he would have done better? Would he have won 3 straight super bowls? Brady wouldn't have done much better with the jets. He is in a system in NE that fits him...BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT WOULD FIT PENNINGTON. The Pats Defense was average in 2001 and 2002, and the Pats offense (outside of Brady) has been below average from 2001-2003. His strengths mask the weaknesses of the team. Brady carried that offense to 2 super bowls. Pennington's had much better skill players to work with. Hopefully that changes this year, as NE's young WRs mature and we finally get a good RB to work with.

In any case, its completely ridiculous to state that if a player had been on another team, he would have won 2 super bowl MVP trophies. Or to state that he would have done better than that.

[Looie #19]

What QB in the NFL isn't a system QB?

[ABCBaseball]

Originally posted by Looie #19
What QB in the NFL isn't a system QB?
there are qb's that create plays by themselves and the best are vick mcnair and manning (peyton) and pennington is much closer to those guys than brady is, as far as a guy who makes plays and win games by himself

[cubswin]

Originally posted by ABCBaseball

there are qb's that create plays by themselves and the best are vick mcnair and manning (peyton) and pennington is much closer to those guys than brady is, as far as a guy who makes plays and win games by himself


seems to me that these guys who supposedly are better than Brady and can win games by themselves really have won pretty much nothing.

Manning, McNair, Pennington and Vick? Yeah, lots of wins there -- if you're a fantasy football fan, that is.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by cubswin

seems to me that these guys who supposedly are better than Brady and can win games by themselves really have won pretty much nothing.

Manning, McNair, Pennington and Vick? Yeah, lots of wins there -- if you're a fantasy football fan, that is.

Bingo!

[tdel23]

Originally posted by cubswin



seems to me that these guys who supposedly are better than Brady and can win games by themselves really have won pretty much nothing.

Manning, McNair, Pennington and Vick? Yeah, lots of wins there -- if you're a fantasy football fan, that is.

so Manning wouldn't have won 2 superbowls if he was on the Pats?

[Euclis]

Probably not. He's a lot closer to Drew Bledsoe's style of QB than Brady's.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by tdel23


so Manning wouldn't have won 2 superbowls if he was on the Pats?
Most QB's would have won 2 SB's if he was with the Pats. Including Jake Delhomme last year who was the better QB in that game.

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Most QB's would have won 2 SB's if he was with the Pats. Including Jake Delhomme last year who was the better QB in that game.

There is NO WAY to project things like that. Most QBs? Really? Tommy Maddox? Quincy Carter (:D)? Kordell Stewart? Kurt Kittner? Jay Fiedler? DREW BREES?! JON KITNA?! Seriously, there's no way to assume this.

[Euclis]

Some people just don't like to give Brady his credit. Hands down, he's the best clutch performer of the last 3 years.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by Euclis
Some people just don't like to give Brady his credit. Hands down, he's the best clutch performer of the last 3 years.
He gets lucky. If there wasn't the tuck rule (which we all know is complete BS) people wouldn't think of him as being so good.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by Euclis
Some people just don't like to give Brady his credit. Hands down, he's the best clutch performer of the last 3 years.

I completely agree. He's a two-time Superbowl MVP, who engineered winning drives, as time expired. He will only improve with time.

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
Most QB's would have won 2 SB's if he was with the Pats. Including Jake Delhomme last year who was the better QB in that game.

I could'nt disagree more, regarding the first part of your statement. Drew Bledsoe is a very good QB, but was replaced primarily because Brady is a better fit for the Patriot's offensive scheme (along w/Bledsoe's timely injury). You cannot simply speculate that any other QB would have led the Pat's to two Superbowl championships.

As for who was the better QB in Superbowl XXXVIII, I'll just enclose the box score for your review. They both played well, IMO. I appreciate the fact that you are a passionate Jet's fan, however, I feel that your personal dislike for Brady (or the fact that he is the Patriot's QB) is clouding your judgement. ;)

http://146.145.120.3/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=chron&page=nfl/scores/final/boxscore.aspx?GAMEID=1110

[Euclis]

Including Jake Delhomme last year who was the better QB in that game.

How do you figure that? Because he made one or two huge passes? Delhomme was only 16/33, while Brady was 32/48. Brady made one bad play all game, his interception. Other than that, he out performed Delhomme (who played the game of his life). The Pats didn't have any WRs as good as Muhammed OR Smith (though Branch was close, hopefully he can become a top WR this year), and Stephen Davis is far better than Antowain Smith. Brady, more than any other person, is what makes that offense go.

[Looie #19]

Eli mentioned before the game tonight in an interview that he was spending the preseason trying to learn the system. I laughed as he doesn't seem to realize that he's not going to be a QB in a system.

[ABCBaseball]

delhomme is not a system he's a good QB whos asked to play like a system QB he's one of the most underrated players in the game.

[ABCBaseball]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

He gets lucky. If there wasn't the tuck rule (which we all know is complete BS) people wouldn't think of him as being so good.
amen borther don't forget kasey kicking the ball out of bounds. if not for that they don't win the 2nd super bowl either

they also got away with mugging the colts WR's the whole game in the AFC championship game. in fact it was so ugly the NFL changed the rules heh

[Looie #19]

Originally posted by ABCBaseball
delhomme is not a system he's a good QB whos asked to play like a system QB he's one of the most underrated players in the game.

http://www.dailygamecock.com/news/2004/08/04/Sports/Panthers.Quarterback.Feels.At.Home.As.Starter-697318.shtml


But there is one major difference in Delhomme this year. Having the starting job cemented has made him a whole lot more comfortable.

"Last year I came in here competing for a job ... we were splitting reps down the middle, and I was still learning a system where they had a year head start on me," he said. " I never really played but in two and a half games before last year. Now I've got 19 or 20 more games from last year, and it's just given me confidence."


http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2390280


TSN: What are you doing in the offseason that will make you a better quarterback in 2004?
JD: The biggest thing is I'm trying to make sure I gain some of my strength back and add on some of the pounds I lost during the season — I dropped about eight pounds — because I had never really gone through a whole season of playing. I've put on about four or five since the season ended. We started lifting a few weeks ago, getting ready for another long, grueling season. In our minicamps, I just want to improve, because last season was only my first year in this offensive system. I just want to get better, make quicker decisions and get the ball out of my hand and into my playmakers' hands.


http://810whb.com/scripts/archives/getstory.asp?string=noSearch&article=5954


Rating NFL backup QB's
By: Jeff Reynolds, Pro Football Weekly

Delhomme
8. Jake Delhomme | Carolina Panthers
Accurate, system QB who may never be a great starter, but could be a good one. We may found out after Delhomme led comeback win.


http://www.newbernsj.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=16809&Section=Sports


A year ago, Delhomme was one of four quarterbacks competing for a starting job.

He split reps with Rodney Peete, Chris Weinke and Randy Fasani and was doing his best to pick up an offensive system that his three competitors already were familiar with.

Now Delhomme not only knows the offensive system inside out, but he's getting the majority of reps and doesn't have to worry about anyone lurking over his shoulder.

"Last year, he was like a rookie for us," Panthers head coach John Fox said. "He was a young player, new to our system.

"I thought he really improved as our season went on a year ago and I think he just looks better and better every day here."


Delhomme had an 80.6 passer rating last season, which isn't too good. Tom Brady may be an idiot, but you're really grasping at straws trying to put him down. Tom Brady has done nothing but show he's an above-average QB in the league, and hands down the best performer when the game is on the line. The guy seemingly never loses a close game, and has never lost an overtime game or postseason game, with average OL's, no game breaking receivers and no running game. Swallow your pride for a moment and give the prick some credit already.

[Euclis]

delhomme is not a system he's a good QB whos asked to play like a system QB he's one of the most underrated players in the game

Had you even heard of Delhomme before he played in the super bowl?

[Euclis]

The guy seemingly never loses a close game, and has never lost an overtime game or postseason game, with average OL's, no game breaking receivers and no running game. Swallow your pride for a moment and give the prick some credit already.

Couldn't have said it better.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by ABCBaseball

amen borther don't forget kasey kicking the ball out of bounds. if not for that they don't win the 2nd super bowl either

they also got away with mugging the colts WR's the whole game in the AFC championship game. in fact it was so ugly the NFL changed the rules heh
Yep. I've never seen a team get more calls in their favor and more luck than the Patriots.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by Euclis


How do you figure that? Because he made one or two huge passes? Delhomme was only 16/33, while Brady was 32/48. Brady made one bad play all game, his interception. Other than that, he out performed Delhomme (who played the game of his life). The Pats didn't have any WRs as good as Muhammed OR Smith (though Branch was close, hopefully he can become a top WR this year), and Stephen Davis is far better than Antowain Smith. Brady, more than any other person, is what makes that offense go.
If I remember correctly, most of Brady's completions were nice short passes where the WR would run with the ball after he caught it. Whenever he tried to go deep in that game he couldn't complete any passes and even had that big interception. Delhomme's numbers weren't as pretty but that has a lot to do with his awful first half.

[Euclis]

If I remember correctly, most of Brady's completions were nice short passes where the WR would run with the ball after he caught it. Whenever he tried to go deep in that game he couldn't complete any passes and even had that big interception. Delhomme's numbers weren't as pretty but that has a lot to do with his awful first half.

Delhomme caught fire in the 2nd half, evening out his crappy 1st half. I know most of Brady's passes were for short yardage....that's how he completed twice as many passes as Delhomme, and only got a few more yards. Delhomme missed half his attempts and took half the game off. How did that make him better than Brady?

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

He gets lucky. If there wasn't the tuck rule (which we all know is complete BS) people wouldn't think of him as being so good.

Every good QB gets "lucky" sometimes. Look at Favre and all those BS passes he hurls up there that somehow, often end up getting caught by his receivers. That doesn't mean he's not good (:barf: I hate him to pieces, but I guess I gotta give him credit sometimes). The good QBs are able to build on the lucky bits, while moving quickly to put the unlucky bits behind them. Besides, the tuck rule might be a stupid rule, but it's still a rule, and that's not the only time I've seen it enforced, just the most famous.

I'm pretty sure we'd still think of him as being pretty darn good without that. It takes a rare guy to be able to just step into a game a few games into the season and take over for the injured starter, especially at the QB position, and lead his team to the playoffs despite his inexperience. We all know you hate the Pats, but give the man his credit. Then again, I'd never give a Jetskin any credit either.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by Euclis


Delhomme caught fire in the 2nd half, evening out his crappy 1st half. I know most of Brady's passes were for short yardage....that's how he completed twice as many passes as Delhomme, and only got a few more yards. Delhomme missed half his attempts and took half the game off. How did that make him better than Brady? I give more credit to the Patriot WR's that had nice runs after they caught the ball than to Brady who just threw the short dump passes. I bet if you take away the YAC Brady's yardage will be quite different.

[Euclis]

I give more credit to the Patriot WR's that had nice runs after they caught the ball than to Brady who just threw the short dump passes. I bet if you take away the YAC Brady's yardage will be quite different.

Give Brady credit for getting the ball into the hands of his playmakers. The Pats haven't had a great WR since Glenn's rookie year, and Brady had nothing but a handful of average WR's last year...they can't make plays on their own, like Steve Smith. His high completion % leads to more chances for big gains, and he knows how to lead them to it.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by tdel23


so Manning wouldn't have won 2 superbowls if he was on the Pats?


No.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

He gets lucky. If there wasn't the tuck rule (which we all know is complete BS) people wouldn't think of him as being so good.


Quite a bit of luck to never lose a playoff game, come from behind in not 1, but 2, SBs and win, what, 14 in a row last year?

If the guy were smart, he'd just go to Vegas and put it all on a single #, b/c that's the kind of "luck" you are talking about...

[cubswin]

Originally posted by Looie #19


.... Tom Brady may be an idiot, but you're really grasping at straws trying to put him down. Tom Brady has done nothing but show he's an above-average QB in the league, and hands down the best performer when the game is on the line. The guy seemingly never loses a close game, and has never lost an overtime game or postseason game, with average OL's, no game breaking receivers and no running game. Swallow your pride for a moment and give the prick some credit already.


"idiot"? "prick"? what is your deal?

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

If I remember correctly, most of Brady's completions were nice short passes where the WR would run with the ball after he caught it. Whenever he tried to go deep in that game he couldn't complete any passes and even had that big interception. Delhomme's numbers weren't as pretty but that has a lot to do with his awful first half.


So, only deep completions count as good quarterbacking? And isn't an awful first half kind of a bad thing to have, especially in, say, the Super Bowl? Shouldn't Brady get credit for not having an awful first half?

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
I give more credit to the Patriot WR's that had nice runs after they caught the ball than to Brady who just threw the short dump passes. I bet if you take away the YAC Brady's yardage will be quite different.


The Pats receivers are relatively slow, yet they apparently had a lot of YAC -- think that might have something to do with Brady's abilities?

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by cubswin



The Pats receivers are relatively slow, yet they apparently had a lot of YAC -- think that might have something to do with Brady's abilities?

YES. The Pats' receivers are not big guys (i.e. T.O., David Boston), so in order for them to be in a position to gain a lot of YAC, Brady has to throw them the ball so that they catch it in stride. You won't see a little guy like Troy Brown mowing down guys to get YAC or doing it with his speed--it's because Brady throws a good ball and hits his guys in stride.

Chad Pennington never benefits from YAC? The stats of EVERY QB IN THE LEAGUE are padded by YAC, but the credit for that is to go both to the WR AND the QB.

[JeffWeaverFan]

He throws a very good short ball and I hear that his WR's say he puts a good touch on the ball and he is good at leading his WR's... I think Pennington is better in that aspect of the game and I think Pennington is more accurate in general.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35


YES. The Pats' receivers are not big guys (i.e. T.O., David Boston), so in order for them to be in a position to gain a lot of YAC, Brady has to throw them the ball so that they catch it in stride. You won't see a little guy like Troy Brown mowing down guys to get YAC or doing it with his speed--it's because Brady throws a good ball and hits his guys in stride.


Yes. It's called pin-point accuracy.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
He throws a very good short ball and I hear that his WR's say he puts a good touch on the ball and he is good at leading his WR's... I think Pennington is better in that aspect of the game and I think Pennington is more accurate in general.



This is kind of reminding me of the many fans here who endlessly touted how great Nick Johnson was/is, despite fact that he has never really done anything except show glimpses of talent. You're trying to claim that a guy w/limited, mediocre #s who not only has never won anything but hasn't even played a full season is better than a guy who has won 2 SBs and been SB MVP twice, never lost a playoff game and engineered countless comebacks.

If Pennington is so great, I look forward to him actually, say, starting a full season at some point in the near future.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by cubswin




This is kind of reminding me of the many fans here who endlessly touted how great Nick Johnson was/is, despite fact that he has never really done anything except show glimpses of talent. You're trying to claim that a guy w/limited, mediocre #s who not only has never won anything but hasn't even played a full season is better than a guy who has won 2 SBs and been SB MVP twice, never lost a playoff game and engineered countless comebacks.

If Pennington is so great, I look forward to him actually, say, starting a full season at some point in the near future.
He is going to start the full season this year and he will have better numbers than not only Brady, but every QB in the NFL. You heard it here first.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

He is going to start the full season this year and he will have better numbers than not only Brady, but every QB in the NFL. You heard it here first.


I know I won't remember this exact post come year-end, but I'm pretty sure I will remember the claim. (What I fear -- sort of -- is that he will actually post great #s in leading the Jets to an 8-8, no playoff year, which will lead to another year of hearing how great he is... :) )

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by cubswin



I know I won't remember this exact post come year-end, but I'm pretty sure I will remember the claim. (What I fear -- sort of -- is that he will actually post great #s in leading the Jets to an 8-8, no playoff year, which will lead to another year of hearing how great he is... :) )
Whether I'm right or wrong, I'll also do my best to remember my post. If he puts up great numbers the Jets will be in the playoffs, no doubt about it. The only thing that can hurt my team is if the secondary doesn't get the job done or if we have a lot of injuries.

[Soriambi]

I think Chad Pennington and Tom Brady are both very good NFL QBs. I also think that Eli will probably be one. Right now, I would have to choose Chad, as he's proved that he can be a good QB for a few years, and you never know whether Manning will bust, but I'd be tempted to choose Eli, as he could very well be great.

Rich- I hear what you're saying about Coughlin, but in all fairness, what's he going to say? "We don't think he's going to be a very good NFL QB."?

If you REALLY knew exactly what he was thinking, that's one thing, but I don't take too much stock in any coach or manager's words about their players.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Soriambi
I think Chad Pennington and Tom Brady are both very good NFL QBs. I also think that Eli will probably be one. Right now, I would have to choose Chad, as he's proved that he can be a good QB for a few years, and you never know whether Manning will bust, but I'd be tempted to choose Eli, as he could very well be great.

Rich- I hear what you're saying about Coughlin, but in all fairness, what's he going to say? "We don't think he's going to be a very good NFL QB."?

If you REALLY knew exactly what he was thinking, that's one thing, but I don't take too much stock in any coach or manager's words about their players.

It could be spin, or it could have been out of a deeply held conviction. It wasn't, however, just Coughlin.

Most of the experts who watched Manning practice and play over the course of the Spring and Summer (the last exhibition game notwithstanding) came away with the impression that he is a rare talent with both the mental and physical skills to be an all-time QB.

[Dooley Womack]

Pennington. Manning has shown us nothing thus far.

[hugelongtermdeal]

Originally posted by PinstripePride
Right now, I'd go with Chad just because he's proven.


Just curious, but exactly what has he proven?

[PinstripePride]

Originally posted by hugelongtermdeal



Just curious, but exactly what has he proven?

He's proven that he is an above average NFL quarterback who can lead his team to the playoffs. Eli has yet to start an NFL game.