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View Full Version : Edgar Martinez better not be a hall of famer.



BruceCampbellKG7
08-12-04, 05:11 PM
I know this topic might have been beaten to death, but i'm still thinking about it since the announcement of his imminent retiring. I do not, and never have, believed he should be a hall of famer. One dimentional players have absolutely no place in the hall of fame. Certain exceptions can be made, like Mike Piazza. Can't catch, but at least he tries, and he's the all time leader for hr's by a catcher. I don't want to hear any talk about Martinez "revolutionized the DH position" like i've heard on the radio. It's not even a position! 8 other guys are doing what he's doing, hitting! Think about it, if Edgar Martinez was in the National League he wouldn't even be a starter. Players who only play half the game should NOT be in the hall of fame.

This also sets a bad example for young players. If young players see that guys like Edgar and Frank Thomas are in the hall of fame, they figure: "hey, i'll just become a slugger and play the field minimally and i'll be in the majors one day, and maybe even a hall of famer". It's rediculous. I was never a fan of Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, or anyone like them. Guys are out there every day hitting maybe not as good, but comparable to them AND play the field, and they might not even make the hall of fame. It would be a shame to let ANY DH in the hall of fame.

Euclis
08-12-04, 05:15 PM
I'm not sure about Edgar, but Thomas definitely is deserving of the HOF. He's played nearly 1000 games at 1B...not awesome, but this guy isn't a career DH. Thomas also has VERY impressive numbers....starting off with 436 career HRs, and a career ops of .996.

BruceCampbellKG7
08-12-04, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Euclis
I'm not sure about Edgar, but Thomas definitely is deserving of the HOF. He's played nearly 1000 games at 1B...not awesome, but this guy isn't a career DH. Thomas also has VERY impressive numbers....starting off with 436 career HRs, and a career ops of .996.

Will 436 homers even guarantee you a hof spot these days? Man alive some guys will end up with 800 i bet (A-Rod, Bonds, maybe Sosa, Griffey could have if he could stay healthy)

Euclis
08-12-04, 05:23 PM
436 definitely won't, but Thomas isn't done. He had 18 HRs in half a season this year, after hitting 42 last year. If he's healthy, he'll be breaking 500 in 2006. And even if he doesn't, Frank Thomas is 10th alltime in career ops...every guy in front of him is in the HOF, or will be.

Euclis
08-12-04, 05:24 PM
Thomas doesn't get much press, but his career statistics are pretty incredible:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4527

ChewieTobbacca
08-12-04, 05:36 PM
Frank Thomas not being a HoFer would be a terrible mistake and would remove any credibility left in the writers.

He has won a batting title (97), won 2 MVPs (93, 94) and has been in top-10 voting for MVP 8 times.

His .310 average is currently 9th among active players. He is second among active players in OBP (behind Bonds) and 8th active in SLG. He has lead the league in OPS 4 times and has been in the top 10 9 times. His career OPS is 4th among active players.

Going into this year, his Adjusted OPS+ is #2 among active players at 162 (Bonds is 179) and he is, get this, number TWELVE among all players.

The players in front of him in career Adjusted OPS+: Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, Hornsby, Mantle, Brouthers, Joe Jackson, Cobb, Foxx, McGwire, and Browning (tied).

All of them are HoFers (McGwire will be in a few years, Jackson is banned from baseball, Browning played too long ago).

In fact, by those numbers alone, Thomas would be one of the top right handers to *ever* play the game.

You could make a case that Edgar shouldn't get in, but Thomas? No, he is a HoFer despite not having much press.

And one-dimensional player isn't exactly a good reason given that players with just superb defense have gotten in.

WakefieldsCrewSox
08-12-04, 05:38 PM
I say they're both HOF'ers, but at the absolute least Thomas should be a lock.

Thanks for the numbers Chewie.

Serge
08-12-04, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Euclis
Thomas doesn't get much press, but his career statistics are pretty incredible:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4527 They are pretty good.

ChewieTobbacca
08-12-04, 05:47 PM
Know what I just noticed? Had Thomas not played as many games in 1991, had his 1992 year been counted a 'rookie' year, he would've put up one of the most amazing rookie years EVER.

.318 AVG, .453 OBP, .553 SLG, 1.006 OPS, 32HR 109 RBI

Not only that but he drew 138 walks versus 112 strikeout's that year!

He's one of those players with an incredible eye, incredible power, and incredible hitting ability that has gone udner the radar the last few years due to stars like Sosa and Bonds and Griffey taking the spotlight

Byung-HyunKimCyYoung
08-12-04, 06:16 PM
Wow, someone's been drinking the Haterade today.

BruceCampbellKG7
08-12-04, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Byung-HyunKimCyYoung
Wow, someone's been drinking the Haterade today.

I don't hate Edgar Martinez. I think he was very good at what he did. He was a very good hitter. My point is he only plays half the game, so he shouldn't be in the Hall.

Euclis
08-12-04, 06:25 PM
AL pitchers only play half the game. Half the game is offense, the other half is a combination of pitching and fielding. At most, fielding is 20% of the game, at least, 5%. More likely it is between 10-15%.

tdel23
08-12-04, 06:26 PM
when I think of Hall of Fame I don't think of Edgar Martinez...the HOF has a chance to be very watered down in a few years

Serge
08-12-04, 06:55 PM
One thing is for sure, it will not be easy for Edgar to get into the Hall, but it can be done.

For one, he hasn't played in the field since 2001 and that was 5 innings at first. He hasn't played in the field with any regularity since 1994 and even that was only 94 games.

But, he has been a very good hitter. His career OBP is fantastic at .420, with SLG at .519. But he hasn't reached any 'big' milestones. He doesn't have 500 homeruns or 3,000 hits. But he does have over 1,200 RBI's.

Again, it can be done but it will be very difficult.

Yanks21
08-12-04, 07:12 PM
If "one dimensional" players like Ozzie Smith and Bill Mazeroski are in the hall of fame, then Edgar Martinez should be in the hall of fame. If closers are becoming members, then Edgar Martinez should be included. His career offensive numbers place him in a real select company. It's too bad that injuries derailed his ability to play the field, because he was at one time a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman...

Mo_04
08-12-04, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Yanks21
If "one dimensional" players like Ozzie Smith and Bill Mazeroski are in the hall of fame, then Edgar Martinez should be in the hall of fame. If closers are becoming members, then Edgar Martinez should be included. His career offensive numbers place him in a real select company. It's too bad that injuries derailed his ability to play the field, because he was at one time a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman...

It's a very tough issue because of these points you bring up. I mean relief pitchers are put in the HoF, right? I for one think a DH should be allowed in the HoF, but he definitely needs to put up better offensive numbers than the average hall of famer, and not just by a little. Anyway i don't really know if he deserves to be there or not, i would need to look it up more. One thing is for sure though, is that it's a very interesting debate.

nahzo
08-12-04, 07:20 PM
He'll get in.

Mo_04
08-12-04, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by nahzo
He'll get in.

I happen to think he will too. And if he does, he can pat himself on the back for being such a nice guy throughout his career because that will be the reason he is chosen.

BroadwayBomber55
08-12-04, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by nahzo
He'll get in.

Edgar Martinez will get in. He's a great guy and a class act. Solid hitter.

Allan
08-14-04, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by tdel23
when I think of Hall of Fame I don't think of Edgar Martinez...the HOF has a chance to be very watered down in a few years

Sort of like Monument Park and retired numbers?

CyYoung4Vazquez
08-14-04, 07:12 PM
If Edgar Martinez gets in and Mattingly is left out.....I think I would never ever go to Cooperstown again

BruceCampbellKG7
08-14-04, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by BroadwayBomber55


Edgar Martinez will get in. He's a great guy and a class act. Solid hitter.

So's Tino Martinez. Will he get in? Nope.

BruceCampbellKG7
08-14-04, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by CyYoung4Vazquez
If Edgar Martinez gets in and Mattingly is left out.....I think I would never ever go to Cooperstown again

That's an excellent point. Here's a guy who was one of the greatest combinations of batting and fielding for a first baseman ever, and he doesn't even get in. If Mattingly doesn't then Frank Thomas and Edgar shouldn't either.

Euclis
08-14-04, 08:53 PM
Frank Thomas is a far better hitter than Mattingly was. Easily enough to overcome the defensive difference between the two.

ChewieTobbacca
08-14-04, 09:18 PM
Frank Thomas and even Edgar's hitting were far better to put the defense aside.. and they did it for a far longer period more consistently

BobbyMurcerFan
08-14-04, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by ChewieTobbacca
Frank Thomas and even Edgar's hitting were far better to put the defense aside.. and they did it for a far longer period more consistently Too true.

Yanks21
08-14-04, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by BruceCampbellKG7


So's Tino Martinez. Will he get in? Nope.

Has Tino Martinez amassed 300 homeruns, 500 doubles, 2000 hits, a career BA over .300, and a career OBP over .400? Nope. That's because only Stan Musial, Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, and...Edgar Martinez have put up such numbers. Again if all defense, no offense players like Mazerozki and Smith make the Hall, then Edgar Martinez belongs there. If relief pitchers like Rollie Fingers and Dennis Eckersly make the hall, then one of the best hitters of his generation in Edgar Martinez belongs in the hall. Had Martinez been able to play 3rd base for a couple of more seasons, then this wouldn't even be a discussion. He'd be a guaranteed first ballot entry...

VanHalen5150
08-14-04, 10:34 PM
If you're not going to put designated hitters in the hall of fame simply because they don't field, then let's just flat out eliminate the DH.

BruceCampbellKG7
08-14-04, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by VanHalen5150
If you're not going to put designated hitters in the hall of fame simply because they don't field, then let's just flat out eliminate the DH.

I wish they would. It gives one dimentional players a chance to shine. They didn't play baseball in "the good old days" with a DH, why should they now? I want to see Pedro Martinez pitch to Kevin Brown, and vice versa. I've always hated the DH, and i really wish that the Yankees were an NL team sometimes.

WashingtonYankee
08-15-04, 03:02 AM
He deserves the Hall. Look at these numbers.
Career DH leaders
Batting average (min. 1,000 AB)

1. Edgar Martinez* .316 (1,567-for-4,963)
2. Paul Molitor .308 (1,457-for-4,727)
3. Hal McRae .294 (1,555-for-5,293)

Home runs

1. Edgar Martinez* 239
2. Harold Baines 235
3. Don Baylor 219

RBIs
1. Edgar Martinez* 986
2. Harold Baines 978
3. Hal McRae 823
** Stats as of Aug. 9, 2004

Mariners records held by Edgar
Category Stat* Rank*
Games 2,013 1
At-bats 7,060 1
Runs 1,203 1
Hits 2,205 1
Walks 1,272 1
Doubles 510 1
Extra base 830 1
RBI 1,244 1
BA .312 2
Home runs 305 3
Slg. % .519 4

He deserves the hall. Just look at these numbers.

BobbyMurcerFan
08-15-04, 09:23 AM
And there are many offensive players in the Hall who were mediocre or pretty bad on defense. Poor defense has never kept a good offensive player out of the Hall. I have no doubt that Edgar could have eventually played a serviceable RF, LF, 3B, 1B.

ForceFive
08-15-04, 10:23 AM
Edgar Martinez is one of only 12 hitters (they were talking about this on ESPN radio the other day) that will enter the HOF with a .300/.400/.500 for his career. That's a pretty awesome accomplishment. He is one of the greatest pure hitters of all time when it comes to JUST metrics.

HOWEVER, if he goes into the hall, he will go into due to his hitting prowess completely; and the fact is, his counting number categories simply are not there. And for a guy whose whole career is about JUST hitting, those numbers don't cut it.

Forget his "position" (if that's what you want to call DH) for a second. Think of just the numbers: he'll only have 2,200+ hits, 1,200+ RBI and barely over 300 homers. For a guy whose only argument for the HOF are pure numbers these are NOT HOF numbers.

And I don't buy the argument that just because he's the greatest DH of all time, that he should go in based on that idea; that's ONLY because DH has historically been reserved for older players toward the ends of their career who don't have a chance to pile up big numbers at that "position". Basically, because Martinez was a gimp and couldn't field or run, he was relegated to DH, affording him the opportunity to compile numbers there (and again, those compiled numbers are not that great). That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for his ability as an all-around baseball player, considering the circumstances.

Edgar Martinez should not be in the HOF.

NYCVirago
08-15-04, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by ForceFive
Forget his "position" (if that's what you want to call DH) for a second. Think of just the numbers: he'll only have 2,200+ hits, 1,200+ RBI and barely over 300 homers. For a guy whose only argument for the HOF are pure numbers these are NOT HOF numbers.

Agreed. Those numbers are the real reason to keep him out of the Hall, not him being a DH.

ChewieTobbacca
08-15-04, 03:17 PM
That is tough though. He had 1,200 RBI in a very short period given how late he was brought to the major leagues. How many 100+ RBI years did he have? A lot of them.

Anyways often times the best hitters don't get even 3000 hits. Ruth, Gehrig, among others never got 3000 hits. Often times, it was because of how many walks they take.

It is a tough choice. I think he will eventually get in just not necessarily in the first round.

Bluesexy's daddy
08-15-04, 06:13 PM
When I consider that Mattingly is not in the HOF I think that Edgar should not be either. When I consider that Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF (for his one good game against the YANKEES I guess) I think that they should just induct each player some time during his first month in the majors.

As far as "Edgar COULD have played a regular position", he could not have done so after his injury that drove him from defense. It was not an option for him.

Since the HOF obviously has no relaible criteria we could probably argue this one for ever. One way or the other I don't care that much.