View Full Version : Clevland, another poor little suffering small market team.

Bluesexy's daddy
03-15-00, 03:59 PM
Clevland is having trouble signing Ramirez.

I can see that Ramorez is no Bernie Williams in the outfield, but he isn't Greg vaughn either.He could be the best DH and an ok back up outfielder.

I would like to know the numbers involved. Somebody will pay Ramirez big bucks if not Clevland.

I do have one big problem with John Hart.
According to him Clevland is a "small market team". THEY HAVE BEEN SELLING OUT EVERY GAME FOR HALF A DECADE !!!!!!

John, babby, get a grip!!! What the heck are you talking about??? When Montreal lets a Lary Walker get away I can buy the "small market" explination but coming from the Indians it sounds ridiculous in the extreme.

I did not complain when you let Albert Belle walk. He was behaving like a criminal so I could see you guys not wanting to outbid Chicago in spite of his HUGE numbers. Albert has since calmed down but I can still buy whatever arguements you might put forth about Albert. Ramirez is another matter.

John, I think you are overating your clubs farm system. For a few years it was the best in the business by a small margine over the YANKEES and Braves but those days are gone. If you are expecting your farm system to pop out another Albert Belle and a pair of Ramirez's you better think again.

Let me put this in terms that even Dan Duquette could understand. IF YOU DON'T SIGN RAMIREZ IT SIGNALS THE DECLINE OF THE INDIANS!!!

Stop trying to snowjob us John. Not all baseball fans are born in Boston.

Q: What do you call a mets fan with a 70 IQ after he drinks a bottle of cheap whiskey??

A: A redsox fan.

03-15-00, 04:33 PM
Look's like Hart is priming the Tribe fans for Manny's exit from Cleveland. I'm for Manny coming home to NY...... Mussina, Hampton, Radke, Manny, etc. ......I want Hart, Angelos, and the rest of the pretenders to keep all our options open. This is going to be a nice year for the Yankees to once again show the wannabe's how to run a ballclub. It all starts at the top.



Bleacher Bum
03-15-00, 07:06 PM
As far as John Hart's comments that Cleveland is a small market team you must remember that even though the Tribe sells out every game, the largest percentage of most baseball teams revenue is generated through television rights, and in that regard Cleveland is a small market. I don't know the exact figure but I believe that the Indians make about 20 million a year from local TV and Cable. Compared to I believe it is 60 million per year for the Yanks. So all things considered the Indians really are tapped out with a 70-80 million per year payroll.

With that said it also must be considered that it would be foolish for John Hart to play his hand at this time. There are many "creative" options for Hart to sign Ramirez, but why should he up the ante before he has too. He will always have the opportunity to make a counter offer during the off season. When you mix in all the players such as Juan Gonzalez, Alex Rodriguez, and even Derek Jeter, who will all be asking for BIG money, and you consider that there are only so many teams with the kind of cash that these players want, you can see that there is going to be a glut of big name free agents this winter, much to the owners benefit. Can Steinbrenner afford to pay 14 million + each for both Jeter and Ramirez?

The last point I will make may sound petty but I think you have to consider it. I consider Derek Jeter and Manny Ramirez to be in the super star class of ball players, but when you compare the two you can see a huge difference in them and it is a difference I feel must be considered when you start throwing around this much money.

Derek Jeter epitomizes the New York Yankees, he is a class act, and is proud to be a Yankee. He plays hard, and represents everything the Yankee organization ever was and ever will be. He is well on the way to a Hall of Fame career and from where I am sitting here in Cleveland appears to be the latest in the string of legendary Yankee baseball players.

Compared to Manny Ramirez, who without a doubt is an excellent ball player. I don't consider his fielding to be as bad as the media tries to portray it, but his baserunning is not that great. Still overall he is one of the premier hitters in the game today. But that is where the comparasion stops. Manny Ramirez is no where as classy of a ball player as Jeter. He won't (or can't) speak to the media. He won't represent the team at charitable functions, he continually shows up at the ball park with tattoos, weird haircuts, and he changes the color of his hair several times through out the season. Last fall, during the playoffs he decided to change his batting stance to emulate Babe Ruth and promptly went 0-19 (or something to that effect). This is not an indication of a professional ball player.

The bottom line is this, when push comes to shove and a team has to layout 14 + million dollars for a player, which player would you prefer to sign?

That is part of the logic that is going into the decision making process here in Cleveland. Manny Ramirez is not going to win Cleveland a World Championship. He can help us win, but then again Cleveland can spend 14 million on one or two other players that will also help us win so if Manny decides he wants to go home to the big Apple. We will miss him, but the team will survive without him, just as it did when Albert Belle left.

Bleacher Bum - Tenth Man - Baseball Message Boards (

Bluesexy's daddy
03-16-00, 07:38 PM
Good Points bleacher Bum. Ramirez is not as much a "team player" as Jeter but how often do you see a guy drive in that many RBI?

I know that the YANKEES have more TV revenue than the Indians but I see that more as a lack of corporate success as opposed to market size. Few teams in baseball have the "demographics" that Clevland has.

If Clevland qualifies as a "small market team" than nearly all the major league teams do.

I don't know where Ramirez will end up but I'm sure he will get a huge contract from somebody.

Imagine what Ramirez would do in Tampa or Coors field? Even in a "pitchers park" he will make a huge impact to some team.

Q: What do you call a mets fan with a 70 IQ after he drinks a bottle of cheap whiskey??

A: A redsox fan.

[This message has been edited by Bluesexy's daddy (edited March 16, 2000).]

03-16-00, 08:46 PM
Not to give fodder to The Boss's argument that more people would come to a 'new' Yankee Stadium in mid-town, but I think the main reason that Cleveland sells lots of tickets is because well, they're in Cleveland......Ohio. The Cleveland Symphony Orchestra is not an option for most people (even though they're terrific), the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a one-shot trip, so what else is there to do in Cleveland? Hey, let's go to a ball game. So, they sell more tickets because they're in essentially the boonies of entertainment.

Manny Ramirez. For some reason all I can remember about Manny Ramirez is when he tried to catch that hit to right field in the 98 playoffs that he thought was going over the wall and he JUMPED and STRETCHED his arm over the wall, and the ball was rolling around his feet. HAH, that was great! Yeah, I know he's a Washington Heights boy (my birthplace too), and I wouldn't mind him coming home to the Yanks. But I'm not ready to label him "great" just yet.


Official Bouncer - Ansky39 Fan Club.

"I love baseball."
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"If they ask, 'who was our star?', give them 25 names..and if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees......"

Bleacher Bum
03-16-00, 11:15 PM
Don't get me wrong I am not saying Ramirez isn't good, I just don't think any of these players are worth Shawn Ggreen money, especially Shawn Green.

What I foresee if Ramirez leaves and I am 99% sure that he will leave, is David Justice in RF, which woould free up LF allowing Sexson to play everyday. The combination of Sexson and Justice in the lineup will be well over 100 RBI's per year.

You have to keep in mind the reason Ramirez had 165 RBI is because Kenny Lofton, Omar Vizquel, and Roberto Alomar are batting in front of him. It's not that hard to get a ton of RBI when you have one or two guys in scoring position every other time you step up to the plate.

Personally I'm thinking this is O'Neil's last year and Steinbrenner will sign Ramirez if for no other reason than to make sure he doesn't play for Cleveland, or any other team that may challenge the Yanks.

Bleacher Bum - Tenth Man - Baseball Message Boards (

Bluesexy's daddy
03-17-00, 01:06 PM
I don't know if George wants Ramirez in the outfield. He would make a great DH but I can't see paying that kind of money for a DH.
Shane Spencer,Ricky LeDee, and Kelly are all better fielders than Ramirez and the YANKEES will likely have at least one of those on the roster if O'Neill should retire next year.

Ramirez would be a perfect fit for the Mets. They don't have any real outfielders any way so nobody would notice his defense. The Mets seem to be becoming a team of "DHs".

To be fair to Ramirez I can't help but point out his .333 avg, his 44 HR, and his 34 doubles. Those men on base were not going home without Ramirez' bat. Sexon MIGHT hit 40 HR but he does not look like he will ever hit .300. .333 appears to be way beyond his ability. Sexon had 17 doubles I doubt that he will ever hit 30 doubles.

You guys are right, Ramirez' play in 88 looked pathetic. It seemes to have become his trade mark play, but I honestly think he has gotten a little better since then.

None of this is meant to give Ramirez any votes as a future MVP or gold glover. I just think that some team will be willing to pay mightily for those RBI.

I could see Steinbrenner not wanting to outbid Angelos or maybe the Mets or Dodgers for a guy that can't handle the YANKEES outfield.

Q: What do you call a mets fan with a 70 IQ after he drinks a bottle of cheap whiskey??

A: A redsox fan.

03-20-00, 09:51 AM
yeah drew carey land is a small market boondocks town, but their owner is one of the richest media conglom's in the world w/ a bigger appetite for sports fanchises than galactica's appetite for planets so sorry hart, spare us the I ain't got enough dough drama, we're from New York... If there's any conning going on we'll be doin' it got it...

by the way, gotta bridge for sale real cheap if ya interested...

a39, bthgaPrez & shotgun's partner in crime...

26 in 2000