Pujols vs. Bonds

[Rocketman]

Bonds is the best player in the NL, but Pujols may be overtaking him in the MVP race right now. Despite having a much higher OPS, Bonds doesn't have NEARLY the counting numbers that Pujols does. Yesterday he hit his 40th and 41st HRs of the year... a tremendous achievement. That moves him into first place for home runs, and he's first in batting average. Pujols is also second in RBI, eight behind Colorado slugger Preston Wilson. I can't imagine how he won't win the NL MVP award, even in St. Louis doesn't make the playoffs.

Moderators: I meant to post this in Around the Majors. Please move it!

[Ansky39]

Originally posted by Rocketman
Bonds is the best player in the NL, but Pujols may be overtaking him in the MVP race right now. Despite having a much higher OPS, Bonds doesn't have NEARLY the counting numbers that Pujols does. Yesterday he hit his 40th and 41st HRs of the year... a tremendous achievement. That moves him into first place for home runs, and he's first in batting average. Pujols is also second in RBI, eight behind Colorado slugger Preston Wilson. I can't imagine how he won't win the NL MVP award, even in St. Louis doesn't make the playoffs.

Moderators: I meant to post this in Around the Majors. Please move it!

excellent discussion topic, i thought of posting it too, but i figure i'd wait until all the numbers are in at the end of the seas...

i'm gone for the day so i'll chime in tomorrow, but i'm anxious to hear others' takes...

fwiw, i picked bonds like 3 weeks ago and have no changed my mind yet, but i'll be sure to reevalute the numbers before posting tomorrow...

:smokin:

[MulderHudsonZito]

Pujols. No question. Bonds is a disgrace. I have no doubt that the man cycles Androgens/dihydrotestosterone like a child goes through candy; then he has the unmitigated gall to compare himself to Babe Ruth?? Ruth was morbidly obese, an alcoholic, a smoker, an all-hours womanizer who abused his body mercilessly, and yet accomplished his poetic feats in parks far larger than the ones Bonds hits in today. Bonds could live a hundred lifetimes and he'd never be the natural athlete Ruth was. But I digress--

While many ballplayers take steroids, Bonds does so without chagrin and without measure. He's the most lurid example of a cheater in the game today. Tragically, the piss-man will never come for Bonds, and no asterik will be placed on his records.

Pujols gets my vote by default.

[Yankee Bulldawg]

I'd take Alber Pujols over Barry Bonds as NL MVP any day & any time. Why because Pujols is putting up some damn awesome nr's this year. So what if Bonds is hitting all those home runs no fans except Giants fans gives a hoot about it and there are many many fans who suspect Bonds is juicing and i am one of those fans.

And one other thing Barry dont you ever think you have the right to compare yourself to such a great as Babe Ruth, yeah so what Ruth was'nt perfect in his day but he had alot more style & grace in a baseball uniform then you'll ever have. It's a shame the piss man wont ever come after you cause that would proofe just how much of a cheater you really are. A cheater who is one the verge of breaking one of the greatest records in MLB history, that would be the biggest disgrace in the history of the game.

And one last thing Barry, at least Ruth did'nt need steriods or other drugs to hit his 714 HR's. Ruth is all gentleman compaired to the likes of you filthy rotten cheater :P :P :P :P

[ring403]

Pujols has a legitimate shot at the triple crown in the NL. As Rocketman said, these are the counting numbers that are looked at for MVP. But team record also factors in. I don't know if Albert gets MVP if the Cards miss the postseason, especially if Bonds tears it up in the playoffs, and gets the Giants back to the WS.

[djhitman01]

One thing's for sure, you fear Bond's more then anyone these days in a big spot, at least that's how I feel. I mean could you imagine him up in the ws's against the yankees where they'd have to pitch to him? I'd feel helpless. Pujols is freaking awsome though. I havent kept up with the cards at all this year, do they have a shot at making the playoffs? If they don't, expect Bonds to get another mvp, OPS is getting popular more and more these days, and Bonds just has a sick one.

[Jeter&Johnson]

Originally posted by ring403
I don't know if Albert gets MVP if the Cards miss the postseason, especially if Bonds tears it up in the playoffs, and gets the Giants back to the WS.

The voting takes place right after the season ends, despite the fact that it isn't released til later so Playoffs have no bearing on MVP or any of the other awards. Not sure how so many people are saying Pujols should get it even if his team doesn't make the playoffs yet disregard players like A-rod and Delgado because their teams don't make the playoffs.

[ring403]

Originally posted by Jeter&Johnson

Not sure how so many people are saying Pujols should get it even if his team doesn't make the playoffs yet disregard players like A-rod and Delgado because their teams don't make the playoffs.

Right or wrong, a team's record is certainly a factor that influences many voters, especially in a year like this where there are two or more legitimate MVP contenders in each league. If the vote is close, and the Giants make the playoffs, while the Cards don't, Bonds is going to get the votes of people who are sitting on the fence.

[Ansky39]

NL MVP:
NL Leaders in Batting Average (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
(3.1 PA/Game)

Rank Player BA
1 Albert Pujols .367 ( 195/532 )
2 Todd Helton .350 ( 187/534 )
3 Barry Bonds .343 ( 121/353 )
4 Gary Sheffield .337 ( 176/522 )
5 Edgar Renteria .327 ( 177/541 )
6 Luis Castillo .326 ( 176/540 )
7 Jason Kendall .326 ( 171/525 )
8 Mike Lieberthal .322 ( 147/456 )
9 Mark Loretta .319 ( 166/520 )
10 Scott Podsednik .318 ( 157/494 )

NL Leaders in Home Runs (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
Rank Player HR
1 Albert Pujols 41
2 Barry Bonds 40
3t Javy Lopez 39
3t Jim Thome 39
5 Richie Sexson 38
6 Jim Edmonds 36
7 Gary Sheffield 35
8 Sammy Sosa 34
9t Jeff Bagwell 33
9t Andruw Jones 33

NL Leaders in Runs Scored (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
Rank Player R
1 Albert Pujols 126
2 Todd Helton 124
3 Rafael Furcal 120
4 Gary Sheffield 118
5 Jeff Bagwell 100
6 Barry Bonds 99
7 Lance Berkman 97
8t Marcus Giles 96
8t Jim Thome 96
10t Craig Biggio 92
10t Luis Castillo 92

NL Leaders in Walks (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
Rank Player BB
1 Barry Bonds 135
2 Jim Thome 103
3 Todd Helton 98
4t Bobby Abreu 97
4t Lance Berkman 97
6t Jose Cruz 92
6t Brian Giles 92
8 Richie Sexson 88
9 Chipper Jones 87
10 Larry Walker 86

NL Leaders in Intentional Walks (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
Rank Player IBB
1 Barry Bonds 57
2 Vladimir Guerrero 20
3 Todd Helton 17
4t Luis Gonzalez 16
4t Mike Matheny 16
6 Bobby Abreu 13
7 Lance Berkman 12
8t Brian Giles 11
8t Alex Gonzalez 11
8t Chad Moeller 11
11t Royce Clayton 10
11t Geoff Jenkins 10
11t Chipper Jones 10
11t Albert Pujols 10
11t Jim Thome 10
11t Larry Walker 10


NL Leaders in Slugging Percentage (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
(3.1 PA/Game)

Rank Player SLG
1 Barry Bonds .745 ( 263/353 )
2 Albert Pujols .688 ( 366/532 )
3 Jim Edmonds .619 ( 260/420 )
4 Todd Helton .618 ( 330/534 )
5 Gary Sheffield .611 ( 319/522 )
6 Reggie Sanders .569 ( 247/434 )
7 Sammy Sosa .564 ( 257/456 )
8 Richard Hidalgo .561 ( 256/456 )
9 Jim Thome .550 ( 288/524 )
10 Preston Wilson .538 ( 297/552

NL Leaders in On-Base Average (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
(3.1 PA/Game)

Rank Player OBP
1 Barry Bonds .532 ( 265/498 )
2 Todd Helton .448 ( 287/641 )
3 Albert Pujols .444 ( 273/615 )
4 Brian Giles .431 ( 230/534 )
5 Gary Sheffield .429 ( 265/617 )
6 Lance Berkman .410 ( 242/590 )
7 Larry Walker .410 ( 210/512 )
8 Bobby Abreu .406 ( 257/633 )
9 Jason Kendall .406 ( 244/601 )
10 Jose Vidro .401 ( 218/543 )


NL Leaders in HR Frequency (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
(3.1 PA/Game)

Rank Player HR Freq
1 Barry Bonds 8.8 ( 353/40 )
2 Jim Edmonds 11.7 ( 420/36 )
3 Albert Pujols 13.0 ( 532/41 )
4 Sammy Sosa 13.4 ( 456/34 )
5 Jim Thome 13.4 ( 524/39 )
6 Adam Dunn 14.1 ( 381/27 )
7 Reggie Sanders 14.5 ( 434/30 )
8 Richie Sexson 14.5 ( 550/38 )
9 Gary Sheffield 14.9 ( 522/35 )
10 Mike Lowell 15.3 ( 488/32 )

NL Leaders in BA Scoring Position (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
(.6 PA/Game)

Rank Player BA
1 Todd Helton .413 ( 52/126 )
2 Albert Pujols .400 ( 48/120 )
3 Ivan Rodriguez .389 ( 51/131 )
4 Gary Sheffield .374 ( 52/139 )
5 Scott Podsednik .372 ( 35/94 )
6 Barry Bonds .364 ( 24/66 )
7 Bobby Abreu .357 ( 50/140 )
8 J.T. Snow .347 ( 26/75 )
9 Mark Loretta .341 ( 42/123 )
10 Jeff Kent .339 ( 41/121 )

NL Leaders in BA Late & Close (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
(.3 PA/Game)


Rank Player BA
1 Albert Pujols .431 ( 31/72 )
2 Scott Podsednik .403 ( 31/77 )
3t Jason Kendall .385 ( 35/91 )
3t Carlos Baerga .385 ( 20/52 )
5 D'Angelo Jimenez .383 ( 18/47 )
6 Sean Casey .374 ( 34/91 )
7 Sean Burroughs .359 ( 28/78 )
8 Jeff Reboulet .357 ( 15/42 )
9 J.T. Snow .356 ( 16/45 )
10 Barry Bonds .350 ( 14/40 )

NL Leaders in On-Base+Slugging (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
(3.1 PA/Game)

Rank Player OBA+SLG
1 Barry Bonds 1.277
2 Albert Pujols 1.132
3 Todd Helton 1.066
4 Gary Sheffield 1.041
5 Jim Edmonds 1.007
6 Richard Hidalgo 0.948
7 Brian Giles 0.946
8 Sammy Sosa 0.940
9 Jim Thome 0.936
10 Marcus Giles 0.922

NL Leaders in Isolated Power (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
(3.1 PA/Game)

Rank Player ISO
1 Barry Bonds 0.402
2 Jim Edmonds 0.340
3 Albert Pujols 0.321
4 Reggie Sanders 0.286
5 Jim Thome 0.284
6 Gary Sheffield 0.274
7 Sammy Sosa 0.272
8 Todd Helton 0.268
9 Richie Sexson 0.258
10 Mike Lowell 0.254

NL Leaders in Runs Created (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
Rank Player RC
1 Albert Pujols 165
2 Barry Bonds 151
3 Todd Helton 147
4 Gary Sheffield 141
5 Jim Thome 118
6 Marcus Giles 111
7 Richie Sexson 110
8t Luis Gonzalez 108
8t Chipper Jones 108
10t Bobby Abreu 107
10t Lance Berkman 107

NL Leaders in Secondary Average (Thru games of Sept. 11, 2003)
(3.1 PA/Game)


Rank Player 2nd Avg
1 Barry Bonds .805 ( 284/353 )
2 Jim Edmonds .514 ( 216/420 )
3 Jim Thome .481 ( 252/524 )
4 Gary Sheffield .466 ( 243/522 )
5 Adam Dunn .465 ( 177/381 )
6 Albert Pujols .457 ( 243/532 )
7 Todd Helton .451 ( 241/534 )
8 Lance Berkman .439 ( 211/481 )
9 Derrek Lee .434 ( 211/486 )
10 Brian Giles .425 ( 184/433 )


Pujols has edge in ba, negligible edge in hrs, edge in runs, ba risp, ba late & close, runs created…

Bonds has the advantage in walks, ibb’s, slg%, obp, hr frequency, ops, iso, and secondary avg…

If you prefer ba over obp pujols is your man…

Let’s look at some other numbers:



National League Adjusted Equivalent Average Leaders
Name EQA EQR RAR RAP RARP
Barry Bonds0.425 134.6 105.6 85.5 98.6
Albert Pujols0.369 138.7 96.0 66.4 85.7
Sheffield, Gary 0.345 121.6 77.3 49.7 68.9
Helton, Todd 0.339 116.1 72.0 41.5 61.3
Lopez, Javy 0.337 90.7 55.7 45.6 57.6
Edmonds, Jim 0.326 93.1 54.2 35.8 51.1
Guerrero, Vladimir 0.325 70.7 41.0 22.6 35.4

Bonds leads pujols in eqa, rar, rap and rarp

Pujols has negligible edge in eqr

Still more numbers:


VORP
NAME VORP
--- -- --
Barry Bonds103.6
Albert Pujols93.0
Rodriguez_Alex 79.6
Sheffield_Gary 76.0
Lopez_Javy 68.4
Boone_Bret 64.1



hmm bonds has highest vorp rating in the majors… let’s see how he does compared to his team supposedly his supporting cast:


NAME VORP
---- ----
CruzJr_Jose 13.0
Grissom_Marquis 28.7
Alfonzo_Edgardo 14.6
Barry Bonds103.6
Aurilia_Rich 21.7
Durham_Ray 26.2
Santiago_Benito 15.6
Snow_JT 15.8
Perez_Neifi 2.5
Galarraga_Andre 15.2



interesting bonds vorp is 74.9 pts higher than his next teammate.. let’s see how pujols does in relation to his teammates:


NAME VORP
---- ----
Albert Pujols93.0
Renteria_Edgar 56.4
Rolen_Scott 51.5
Martinez_Tino 11.5
Edmonds_Jim 52.4
Matheny_Mike -2.2
Palmeiro_Orland -4.4
Hart_Bo 8.3
Drew_JD 18.2
Cairo_Miguel 0.2
Perez_Eduardo 10.7


hmm, pujols seems to have much more support w/ three teammates at 50+ vorp rating his rating is only 36.6 higher than his next most valuable teammate, less than half the diff between bonds and his next most valuable teammate..

it’d seem to me that despite the overwhelming at times hatred many in the public has for mr bonds, once again his numbers prove he is the most valuable asset w/ a bat in baseball.. he is the most feared hitter on the planet has revolutionized the classic battle between batter and pitcher to put the odds in his favor w/ his above 50% obp, is w/o a doubt the most perhaps only valuable bat on a first place team headed to the post… pujols has put up great numbers batting in a great lineup, bonds is the giants lineup…

I’m still leaning towards bonds but I won’t write pujols off yet, he stil has some time to improve his chances..

[KC]

Would someone be kind enough to explain Secondary Average, eqa, rar, rap, rarp, eqr, and vorp to me?

[Ansky39]

Originally posted by KC
Would someone be kind enough to explain Secondary Average, eqa, rar, rap, rarp, eqr, and vorp to me?

i'm about to bail, i'll chime in on monday, but here's a gppd resource:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/glossary.shtml

[NYYFAN]

Based on the numbers presented, I have to go with Albert...

[KC]

I've never even heard of most of those Stats.

Thanks for the resource, Ansky.

[Blind_Umpire]

I want Pujols to win it, but Bonds is a true MVP. The guy doesn't have as big of a supporting cast in his lineup, like Pujols does.
But Pujols doesn't have the pitching that Bonds does.

[Ansky39]

Originally posted by NYYFAN
Based on the numbers presented, I have to go with Albert...

i think u mean in spite of the numbers presented you "have" to go w/ pujols... :smokin: