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View Full Version : Boston's FALLACY of their "home grown team"



BobbyMeacham's glove
12-25-08, 07:41 PM
After hearing Sox fans whine and moan by not getting Teixeria and claim that "we have better chemistry due to our home grown players" it made me start to thinking how we keep hearing this and the media types like to perpetuate this myth as well.

Let's look at both INFIELDS: A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Giambi/Texieria & Posada (3 out of 5) Lowell, Lowrie, Pedroia, Youklis, Variktek (4 out of 5, but maybe no longer at C)

DH Matusi (0) Ortiz (0)

OUTFIELD Damon, Cabrera/Gardner, Abreu/Nady/Swisher (1 out of 3) Ramirez/Bay, Crisp/Ellsbury, Drew (1 out of 3)

PITCHING Sabathia, Burnette, Pettitte, Chamberlian,Wang (3 of 5) Beckett, Lester, Matsusaka,Wakefield, Bucholz/Masterson/Byrd/Colon (2 of 5)

RELIEF Okay I'm lazy and both teams have a bevy of guys who are a mix of home grown and been elsewhere, so I'm call it a tie or "toss up". Papelbon & Rivera are both homegrown.

So when you break it down, this whole Red Sox belief of "their team is built thru the draft" is absolute nonsense. So have the Yankees, just that their core of home grown's are older than the Sox.

The Yankees did it before the Red Sox and won 4 WS, the Red Sox did it and won 2, now the Yankees are doing it again.

Okay rant over :)

continentalg5
12-25-08, 07:42 PM
You should space out your thoughts so it's easier to read.

BobbyMeacham's glove
12-25-08, 07:44 PM
This forum seems to not like Firefox and give me problems time to time. Even when I do it right it wraps the text. I edit it, and it still won't work. I try to use IE and I never remember my password. Heck, even 50% of the time it won't let me click on the :) to the right

ny
12-25-08, 07:54 PM
Vag played in 345 games before he came up and only 20 were with the sox so he's not homegrown.

BobbyMeacham's glove
12-25-08, 08:02 PM
Vag played in 345 games before he came up and only 20 were with the sox so he's not homegrown. Color me confused? Vag???

27IsNext
12-25-08, 08:09 PM
Varitek isn't homegrown. He spent the majority of his minor league career in Seattle's system. As already mentioned, he only played 20 games for the Red Sox' minor league team before coming up.

Like the Yankees, they have a good mix of homegrown players and players acquired via free agency or trade; although, I'd argue they've been much wiser in their spending over the last few years.

cupcollector99
12-25-08, 08:15 PM
Homegrown is just an excuse to knock the Yankees again. I like the idea of getting players from within the system because the team has more control over how they develop. That said, the entire concept of free agency is to allow the players to seek the highest salary they could get and control their own destiny.
Working out a good balance is what competitive teams try to do.

Zimmers' Helmet
12-25-08, 08:22 PM
Posada
Cano
Jeter
Gardner
Cabrera
Chamberlain
Riveira
Wang
Pettitte (if he re-signs)
Robertson

That's 10 homegrown players on the Yankee roster; (40%)

Boston can stick it where the sun don't shine :)

PirateChief
12-25-08, 08:39 PM
I don't know why this matters at all. We shouldn't have to defend the Yankees from Red Sox fans wiping away bitter tears. Their philosophy is not hard and fast, nor is it how they won in 2004. They wanted Teixiera. If they were not in the bidding for any major free agents, you could understand.

I don't understand how this is anything other than, "Well I never really wanted him anyway!"

Stop dignifying what are borderline trolls with responses that we actually have to go and think out. Just point out to them that John Henry's hedge fund is sucking more wind than a vacuum cleaner and they'll go off and pout for another few days.

parkerstrong
12-25-08, 09:38 PM
After hearing Sox fans whine and moan by not getting Teixeria and claim that "we have better chemistry due to our home grown players" it made me start to thinking how we keep hearing this and the media types like to perpetuate this myth as well. Let's look at both INFIELDS: A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Giambi/Texieria & Posada (3 out of 5) Lowell, Lowrie, Pedroia, Youklis, Variktek (4 out of 5, but maybe no longer at C) DH Matusi (0) Ortiz (0) OUTFIELD Damon, Cabrera/Gardner, Abreu/Nady/Swisher (1 out of 3) Ramirez/Bay, Crisp/Ellsbury, Drew (1 out of 3) PITCHING Sabathia, Burnette, Pettitte, Chamberlian,Wang (3 of 5) Beckett, Lester, Matsusaka,Wakefield, Bucholz/Masterson/Byrd/Colon (2 of 5) RELIEF Okay I'm lazy and both teams have a bevy of guys who are a mix of home grown and been elsewhere, so I'm call it a tie or "toss up". Papelbon & Rivera are both homegrown. So when you break it down, this whole Red Sox belief of "their team is built thru the draft" is absolute nonsense. So have the Yankees, just that their core of home grown's are older than the Sox. The Yankees did it before the Red Sox and won 4 WS, the Red Sox did it and won 2, now the Yankees are doing it again. Okay rant over :) WHY WON'T THIS WORK WHEN I EDIT IT!!!!!!

Varitek isn't homegrown.....he was traded from Seattle for Heacliff Slocumb. Homegrown is spending your entire career with one organization.

SLURPEE
12-25-08, 11:14 PM
Boston has done a nice job over the past few years of developing and inserting young players on to their team. Now having said that I do think people (fans media analyst) have a tendency to overrate their young talent. And in the process bash what is perceived to them lack of Yankee "homegrown" talent.
The current guys that have been brought up by Boston: Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lowrie, Lester, Bucholtz, Masterson. No doubt some of those guys have talent. But people act like those guys blow away Yankee homegrown guys.
I'm sorry but those guys aren't that significantly (in terms of talent not so much performance) better then: Cano, Wang, Joba, Melky, Hughes, Robertson.
The Red Sox have done slightly better when it comes to position players. but still even with that outside of Pedroia (I know Youklis came from their system but I'm mainly talking about players from the past 2 years) And the Yankees have a very good young second baseman themselves, there's no homegrown position guy that jumps out at you. Lowie, Ellsbury? Please!
But on the other side the Yankees have done better when it comes to drafting pitchers.

I don't really care about Boston taking credit for developing players recently. I'm just irked that many act like (especially with this off season spending spree) the Yankees don't develop their own.
I'm hearing a lot of "who do they develop?"

ace
12-25-08, 11:47 PM
They are more homegrown now than they were in 2003 and 2004. Go back and look at those rosters.

PirateChief
12-25-08, 11:48 PM
They are more homegrown now than they were in 2003 and 2004. Go back and look at those rosters.
And so are we. So both teams can shut up about this.

sweet_lou_14
12-25-08, 11:52 PM
There was one home grown player on the 2004 ALCS roster for Boston. ONE.

Can you name him?

DEADSOX
12-26-08, 12:18 AM
There was one home grown player on the 2004 ALCS roster for Boston. ONE.

Can you name him?

Wasn't it Nomaaa?

Ahhh.. he was traded before the ALCS... forget it.

Mr. Smith
12-26-08, 12:18 AM
There was one home grown player on the 2004 ALCS roster for Boston. ONE.

Can you name him?

Bronson Arroyo?

Nevermind he was with the Pirates... forgot.

PirateChief
12-26-08, 12:26 AM
it's trot nixon.

CanoForPresident
12-26-08, 12:26 AM
There was one home grown player on the 2004 ALCS roster for Boston. ONE.

Can you name him?

Trot Nixon.

teknetic
12-26-08, 12:40 AM
Call it personal bias, but there isn't a Sox prospect I'd take over Montero and Brackman.

Stick Michael
12-26-08, 01:34 AM
The Sox won in 2004 by making sound trades and good free agent signings. They won in 2007 with more home grown players. Know how much either matters? When it comes to winning, not a whole lot. No asterisk punctuates any World Series championship team that was filled with players from other teams, nor do championship teams that won with mostly homegrown talent receive additional accolades. Championships justify themselves, regardless of what team wins them and how they're won.

James

hockeypuck2008
12-26-08, 01:51 AM
The Sox won in 2004 by making sound trades and good free agent signings. They won in 2007 with more home grown players. Know how much either matters? When it comes to winning, not a whole lot. No asterisk punctuates any World Series championship team that was filled with players from other teams, nor do championship teams that won with mostly homegrown talent receive additional accolades. Championships justify themselves, regardless of what team wins them and how they're won.

James

exactly, why does anyone care what the Red Sox think in the first place?

Mr Coffee
12-26-08, 02:25 AM
(Image removed by moderator. Would have been tolerated in Sports Bar, but discretion is needed in areas of forum viewable by guests and the general public, particularly children. Please keep this in mind. Thanks.)

Bob420
12-26-08, 08:33 AM
Call it personal bias, but there isn't a Sox prospect I'd take over Montero and Brackman.

If the Yankees could trade Brackman for Anderson, I would personally pack his bags.

bcom33
12-26-08, 08:34 AM
If the Yankees could trade Brackman for Anderson, I would personally pack his bags.

With Mark Teixeira locked up for the next 8 years, you'd make that trade?

Bob420
12-26-08, 08:38 AM
With Mark Teixeira locked up for the next 8 years, you'd make that trade?

In a heartbeat. Anderson's value is so much higher than Brackman's. I am excited to see what Brackman can do but he is a project.

wang+cano=future
12-26-08, 08:42 AM
Posada - Varitek
Teixiera - Youk
Cano - Pedroia
Jeter - Lowrie
ARod - Lowell
Nady - Drew
Melky/Gardner - Ellsbury
Damon - Bay

Sabathia - Beckett
Wang - Lester
Burnett - Dice-K
Joba - Wakefield
Hughes - Bucholz

Rivera - Papelbon



That is 8 home-grown Yanks and 7 for the Red Sox (not including the rest of the bullpens or bench).

yanksphan
12-26-08, 09:59 AM
Don't forget Lugo....he's still on the roster, and not homegrown.

yankeeman61
12-26-08, 10:06 AM
Boston fans whining, moaning, crying? Music to my ears. Something good must be brewing for the Yankees :)

YankeePride1967
12-26-08, 10:11 AM
Boston fans whining, moaning, crying? Music to my ears. Something good must be brewing for the Yankees :)

You know the Yanks must be doing something right to get Sox fans upset. For the first time in years I can hear actual anger in the voice and tone of Sox fans whether it be in person or in type.

4degrees
12-26-08, 10:47 AM
The reality is that both teams operate the same way.

2006; Red Sox don't make the play-offs after 3 straight appearances. Payroll: $120M. Claim they do not have the money to get Bobby Abreu.

2007: Red Sox raise payroll to $143M. Added Lowell ($9M), Beckett ($6.67M) by trade; Drew ($14M), Lugo ($8.25M), Matsuzaka ($57M for that year), Piniero ($4M), Okajima ($1.25M), Gagne ($4M), Donnelly ($1.4M), Romero ($1.6M)

So the Red Sox don't make the play-offs and go out and use money to get players in FA or salary dumps. They get a bullpen, 2 starters, and 3 position players out of it. They sign a 1 and a 2 and the second best positional player available.

Sounds familiar...

The hard truth is that money is a key resource for both teams and when they struggle, they play the card. It was okay for the Sox to do it in 2007 because they needed to catch up; last time I looked, one team has won 2 WS in the last 4 years and one hasn't. Just more of the hypocrisy.

ngruz25
12-26-08, 03:38 PM
The Sox won in 2004 by making sound trades and good free agent signings. They won in 2007 with more home grown players. Know how much either matters? When it comes to winning, not a whole lot. No asterisk punctuates any World Series championship team that was filled with players from other teams, nor do championship teams that won with mostly homegrown talent receive additional accolades. Championships justify themselves, regardless of what team wins them and how they're won.

James
Couldn't have said it better myself. Your whole post seems like you're setting up and knocking down some big 'ol strawmen.

Hitman23
12-26-08, 06:29 PM
waaah the Yankees are trying to improve their team wahhhh

ArodEra
12-26-08, 06:36 PM
In all fairness, I think that the Sox fans are aware of our home grown talent as well. As baseball fans, they're too smart not to know this, unless some are acting dumb. I think that it's the rest of the baseball world, and the less-than-honest media, that's the problem.

hockeypuck2008
12-26-08, 07:06 PM
Posada - Varitek
Teixiera - Youk
Cano - Pedroia
Jeter - Lowrie
ARod - Lowell
Nady - Drew
Melky/Gardner - Ellsbury
Damon - Bay

Sabathia - Beckett
Wang - Lester
Burnett - Dice-K
Joba - Wakefield
Hughes - Bucholz

Rivera - Papelbon



That is 8 home-grown Yanks and 7 for the Red Sox (not including the rest of the bullpens or bench).

I am counting 8 for the Red Sox and the Yankees. Dice-K, even though purchased from Japan, still counts as home grown since he never before played in the MLB.

YankeePride1967
12-26-08, 07:09 PM
I am counting 8 for the Red Sox and the Yankees. Dice-K, even though purchased from Japan, still counts as home grown since he never before played in the MLB.


Then it's 9 for the Yanks (Matsui).

CallOfTheCrow
12-26-08, 07:11 PM
Matsui & Daisuke do not count as home grown players since they were bought already as established professionals.

YankeePride1967
12-26-08, 07:13 PM
Matsui & Daisuke do not count as home grown players since they were bought already as established professionals.


Of course, I was just goi g bythe other poster's criteria.

hockeypuck2008
12-26-08, 07:17 PM
Matsui & Daisuke do not count as home grown players since they were bought already as established professionals.

actually when baseball does count stuff like this, they are considered home grown talent.

CallOfTheCrow
12-26-08, 07:19 PM
It's a flaw that should be corrected then because by no means are they home grown.

They were not drafted & developed in their minor league systems.

hockeypuck2008
12-26-08, 07:25 PM
It's a flaw that should be corrected then because by no means are they home grown.

They were not drafted & developed in their minor league systems.

how do you correct it, why correct it? MLB onlty cares about MLB, they recognize only themselves. And where does this end? How about Cubans, do they count? If Gourriel came over right now he is a big leaguer. Do we then aknowledge Cuba? ................, we don't even trade with them and haven't for what, 50 years, but now we are going to aknowledge them. Like it or not if they where never owned by a MLB team, the first team to sign them is the team that is considered the one who grew them. Anything elses becomes too complex and long winded.

27IsNext
12-26-08, 07:29 PM
No way should Daisuke and Matsui be considered homegrown.

CanoForPresident
12-26-08, 07:31 PM
I am counting 8 for the Red Sox and the Yankees. Dice-K, even though purchased from Japan, still counts as home grown since he never before played in the MLB.

lmfao...

Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

CallOfTheCrow
12-26-08, 07:36 PM
how do you correct it, why correct it? MLB onlty cares about MLB, they recognize only themselves. And where does this end? How about Cubans, do they count? If Gourriel came over right now he is a big leaguer. Do we then aknowledge Cuba? ................, we don't even trade with them and haven't for what, 50 years, but now we are going to aknowledge them. Like it or not if they where never owned by a MLB team, the first team to sign them is the team that is considered the one who grew them. Anything elses becomes too complex and long winded.

Whether you're from Mexico, Cuba, Japan, China, Amsterdam...wherever, that's just how I feel. If an established professional player is purchased then they should not be considered "home grown talent" since they weren't developed by their team.

What MLB executive/scout/whoever considers these guys home grown? Or are you just speaking for yourself here?

Abe Frohman
12-26-08, 07:37 PM
I think there is also a big difference between this wave of FA signings and the post - 2000 signings. Cashman rebuilt our farm system. After Jeter, Mo and Po, we hadnt turned out any quality players from within. The FO just kept shelling out the guap and not developing anyone ... they were all traded. Now, we have one of the best farms in baseball (Pitching wise) and we can spend $$$ 430 mil in one offseason ... without even blinking.

Who knows what gems we have in our farm right now ... drafted or international signings or what not ? Cano, Wang came through. plus the beasts coming up in Betances and Brackman. Joba ??? Joba outta nowhere has the talent to become top 3 starters in all of Baseball. Hughes ... many of us have high hopes for him. This is what was missing last go around and it will be the difference. Its like that quote says ... " God help the rest of Baseball ... "

yanksphan
12-26-08, 07:54 PM
Then it's 9 for the Yanks (Matsui).

Okajima and Igawa are felling left out too then.

hockeypuck2008
12-26-08, 08:06 PM
Whether you're from Mexico, Cuba, Japan, China, Amsterdam...wherever, that's just how I feel. If an established professional player is purchased then they should not be considered "home grown talent" since they weren't developed by their team.

What MLB executive/scout/whoever considers these guys home grown? Or are you just speaking for yourself here?

wow, I stand corrected. At least one article I have found states them as not being home grown talent unless they play at least one game in the minors before playing in the bigs. I also found that even if a player played his first professional baseball game in your minor league system but didn't make his MLB debut with your team, even if he comes back to the team that he was originally apart of, he isn't considered home grown. Interesting.

Hitman23
12-26-08, 10:55 PM
In all fairness, I think that the Sox fans are aware of our home grown talent as well. As baseball fans, they're too smart not to know this, unless some are acting dumb. I think that it's the rest of the baseball world, and the less-than-honest media, that's the problem.It's the same tired argument that goes on every time the Yankees get their way and god forbid, actually have a shot at being the team to beat. People lash out, complain, whine, cry, come up with stupid arguments like "yeah..... well..... you're team isn't homegrown!" That's like having someone prove you wrong and replying "well you're stupid". Anyone who can't acknowledge that Mo, Jeter, Cano, Posada, and Wang are all star home grown Yankees are just plain dinks and I don't even justify comments like that with a response. They aren't acting dumb, they are just plain dumb. They obviously don't pay attention and would rather bash the Yankees for having leverage and money rather than face the real problem of their team making moves that aren't alwasy correct if winning is the ultimate goal. If that's what they want to think, they can go on thinking it and cry all they want. I like seeing my team improve and if it takes big contracts and big players than so be it. We aren't breaking any rules.

Casey at the Bat
12-27-08, 12:01 AM
wow, I stand corrected. At least one article I have found states them as not being home grown talent unless they play at least one game in the minors before playing in the bigs. I also found that even if a player played his first professional baseball game in your minor league system but didn't make his MLB debut with your team, even if he comes back to the team that he was originally apart of, he isn't considered home grown. Interesting.

So would that make Tek homegrown?

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the "homegrown" label... just get the best players to play on your team. But some are saying Tek isn't homegrown. And according to the definition above, he couldn't be homegrown to the mariners either. So who's homegrown talent is he?

btw, this really is a pretty silly argument to be having, imho.

hockeypuck2008
12-27-08, 12:36 AM
So would that make Tek homegrown?

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the "homegrown" label... just get the best players to play on your team. But some are saying Tek isn't homegrown. And according to the definition above, he couldn't be homegrown to the mariners either. So who's homegrown talent is he?

btw, this really is a pretty silly argument to be having, imho.

that is a great question. If Schilling wasn't home grown because of that then Varitek should be considered homegrown. You are right though, this is silly.

hockeypuck2008
12-27-08, 12:40 AM
It's the same tired argument that goes on every time the Yankees get their way and god forbid, actually have a shot at being the team to beat. People lash out, complain, whine, cry, come up with stupid arguments like "yeah..... well..... you're team isn't homegrown!" That's like having someone prove you wrong and replying "well you're stupid". Anyone who can't acknowledge that Mo, Jeter, Cano, Posada, and Wang are all star home grown Yankees are just plain dinks and I don't even justify comments like that with a response. They aren't acting dumb, they are just plain dumb. They obviously don't pay attention and would rather bash the Yankees for having leverage and money rather than face the real problem of their team making moves that aren't alwasy correct if winning is the ultimate goal. If that's what they want to think, they can go on thinking it and cry all they want. I like seeing my team improve and if it takes big contracts and big players than so be it. We aren't breaking any rules.

everybody does it though. Sox fans, Yankees fans, Cowboys fans, Niners fans, Avs fans, Celtics fans, etc, But you are absolutely right, who cares how a team is constructed as long as they win.

JeterRodriguezSheff
12-27-08, 02:00 AM
I am counting 8 for the Red Sox and the Yankees. Dice-K, even though purchased from Japan, still counts as home grown since he never before played in the MLB.

That is a pretty big stretch. He was well established and hyped before coming to the USA. You have to consider Matsui and Igawa home grown under those standards, and I would not.

MaineSoxFan
12-27-08, 07:56 AM
So would that make Tek homegrown?

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the "homegrown" label... just get the best players to play on your team. But some are saying Tek isn't homegrown. And according to the definition above, he couldn't be homegrown to the mariners either. So who's homegrown talent is he?

btw, this really is a pretty silly argument to be having, imho.

It is pretty silly, I agree. The goal of developing your farm system isn't so that you can have a homegrown team, it is so that you have the pieces to create a championship team. Sometimes that means trades, like moving Hanley Ramirez and getting Beckett and Lowell and sometimes it means developing your own players. As Stick Michael said earlier, the goal is to win a championship, not to have a "homegrown team", however that is defined.

ArodEra
12-27-08, 08:33 AM
It's the same tired argument that goes on every time the Yankees get their way and god forbid, actually have a shot at being the team to beat. People lash out, complain, whine, cry, come up with stupid arguments like "yeah..... well..... you're team isn't homegrown!" That's like having someone prove you wrong and replying "well you're stupid". Anyone who can't acknowledge that Mo, Jeter, Cano, Posada, and Wang are all star home grown Yankees are just plain dinks and I don't even justify comments like that with a response. They aren't acting dumb, they are just plain dumb. They obviously don't pay attention and would rather bash the Yankees for having leverage and money rather than face the real problem of their team making moves that aren't alwasy correct if winning is the ultimate goal. If that's what they want to think, they can go on thinking it and cry all they want. I like seeing my team improve and if it takes big contracts and big players than so be it. We aren't breaking any rules.

Great post - worthy of taping it to the fridge.

Meecham4ever
12-28-08, 11:51 AM
Are Wang and Dice-K to be considered homegrown as well?

Was the team Mo pitched and played shortstop for in Panama (Oreste) a professional team?

nnysiny
12-28-08, 11:54 AM
Are Wang and Dice-K to be considered homegrown as well?
Wang is

blumj
12-28-08, 04:05 PM
Amateur free agents vs. professional, although I suppose there might be countries where that distinction could be a bit blurry.

YankeePride1967
12-28-08, 04:07 PM
At the end of the day, does it really matter how the team was built?

BobbyMeacham's glove
12-29-08, 03:15 PM
Being the originator of this thread, I didn't think it would turn into a debate as to what a "homegrown" player was.

I'm not concerned with what is the "official" stance on this, but to me, if a player plays his entire MLB career for one team (regardless of minor leagues) I consider him a "homegrown" from the perspective that fans feel more of a connection to them.

So by my logic Varitek is a homegrown.

It's a mute point at the end of the day. Even though Tino played with Seattle and helped beat us in 1995, he performed like a champion, therefore he'll always be considered a "YANKEE".

Just like Ortiz will be for the Sox.

ace
12-29-08, 03:32 PM
Being "homegrown" and having your career and accomplishments being associated with one team are different things.

yanksphan
12-29-08, 09:19 PM
moot point.

TheoShmeo
12-29-08, 10:34 PM
I think the fans of all teams enjoy seeing players come up through the system and succeed. It's nice for Sox fans when guys like Pedroia, Youks, Papelbon and Lester do well.

But that's only a nice thing at the margin, in my opinion. Said differently, if Jason Bay hits a walk off, my enjoyment isn't diminished one little bit by the fact that he was acquired in a trade as opposed to through the draft.

As has been said well by others, it's about winning, not pedigree.

This thread seems like a proxy to complain about Sox fans lamenting the fact that the Yankees have once again used their upper limit salary advantage to upgrade their team. And the reality is that as long as some teams can spend more than others, the fans of the lesser economic powers will note the inherent unfairness of baseball's system. This is not something that football, hockey or basketball fans ever talk about.

JDPNYY
12-29-08, 10:44 PM
heh..

Casey at the Bat
12-30-08, 01:07 AM
I wonder how many sox fans were complaining about uneven economics when they blew everyone out of the water for the right to talk to matsusaka?

aeromac76
12-30-08, 09:21 AM
I'll say one thing, the Sox fans I know have not been complaining about the Yankees spending. They have been more annoyed with the Sox FO.
It seems as if most of the whining is actually coming from the team itself. That is weird, normally the teams act professionally and the fans are irrational.
But most of my friends who are Sox fans say "man, I'd have done the same thing if I had your $$$".

Rice14
12-30-08, 10:09 AM
I'll say one thing, the Sox fans I know have not been complaining about the Yankees spending. They have been more annoyed with the Sox FO.
It seems as if most of the whining is actually coming from the team itself. That is weird, normally the teams act professionally and the fans are irrational.
But most of my friends who are Sox fans say "man, I'd have done the same thing if I had your $$$".

If you were strictly talking about the Red Sox vs. the Yankees only, there might be a valid complaint about the fact the Yankees can consistently outspend the Sox by 30-50 million.

When you step back and look at the big picture though, and remember that there are actually 28 other teams, there's nothing to complain about. The guy in the room with the second most amount of money shouldn't be complaining about the guy with the most.

The current economic system benefits Boston far, far, far more than it hurts them. It just benefits the Yankees a little more than that.

TheoShmeo
12-30-08, 10:12 AM
I'll say one thing, the Sox fans I know have not been complaining about the Yankees spending. They have been more annoyed with the Sox FO.
It seems as if most of the whining is actually coming from the team itself. That is weird, normally the teams act professionally and the fans are irrational.
But most of my friends who are Sox fans say "man, I'd have done the same thing if I had your $$$".
I'm neither annoyed with the Sox or angry at the Yankees.

The Sox didn't get Teix because they didn't offer enough or because Boras played them in an effort to squeeze out the last dollar or because Teix always deep down wanted to be a Yankee or because a combination of those factors or because of something else that has never been mentioned. Why would a Sox fan be annoyed with the Red Sox when we don't really know how or why this happened and especially given that the decision might not have been tied to their offer? And while I wanted them to get Teixeira, and did not want the Yankees to get him, the fact remains that paying that amount of coin to a first baseman with Teix's stats would have been on the edge, and maybe beyond it, for a team that has an annual self-imposed payroll cap of about $130-140 mm. Again, I would have done it, but it very well might have limited them going forward.

I'd really be annoyed if they sat on their hands and did nothing during this off season, but if they drew a line in the sand and refused to go past it, that's been their MO all along, and it's a little churlish to applaud them when their approach works and they win two titles, and crap on them when it doesn't or apparently doesn't.

As to the Yankees, I wish they spent a little less year after year, and didn't continually have $60-80 mm more in aggregate player salaries than my team. And I admit to wondering how much better the Sox would be if Theo et al had that gap to work with. But the Yankees are playing within the rules of baseball, so it's hard to fault them for taking advantage of an uneven system.

Casey at the Bat
12-30-08, 10:31 AM
If you were strictly talking about the Red Sox vs. the Yankees only, there might be a valid complaint about the fact the Yankees can consistently outspend the Sox by 30-50 million.

When you step back and look at the big picture though, and remember that there are actually 28 other teams, there's nothing to complain about. The guy in the room with the second most amount of money shouldn't be complaining about the guy with the first.

The current economic system benefits Boston far, far, far more than it hurts them. It just benefits the Yankees a little more than that.

While I agree with your sentiment, I don't think it is accurate to say that the sox were the team with the second most amount of money, at least not in 2008. If we are going strictly by team payroll, I think the sox were in 4th last season. Although it is safe to assume they won't be #1 in payroll this season, who knows if they will reclaim #2 anytime soon.

Mr Coffee
12-30-08, 12:23 PM
Not having the money and not spending the money are two different things.

NyQuil
12-30-08, 12:48 PM
They are more homegrown now than they were in 2003 and 2004. Go back and look at those rosters.

My sig used to have a link to SI article written the day after game seven in 2004 detailing how the Red Sox only beat the Yankees be becoming them and pointing out that the Yankees had more home grown player on their roster than Boston.

Casey at the Bat
12-30-08, 02:08 PM
Not having the money and not spending the money are two different things.

Then how are we sure that the sox are the second richest team?

EDIT: I found the value of the teams. According to Forbes, The red sox are #3 in value, behind the yankees and the mets, and in front of the Dodgers. This was according to the 2007 season.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/33/biz_baseball08_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Rank.html

Meecham4ever
12-30-08, 02:15 PM
My sig used to have a link to SI article written the day after game seven in 2004 detailing how the Red Sox only beat the Yankees be becoming them and pointing out that the Yankees had more home grown player on their roster than Boston.

And now they write thesis on how the Yankees are copying the Theo and Co. model, building the farm system up, etc...if anyone would know, it would be sportswriters...:P

NyQuil
12-30-08, 02:25 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/jacob_luft/10/28/redsox.empire/index.html

Boom. Outta here.

YankProspector
01-01-09, 09:32 PM
Then how are we sure that the sox are the second richest team?

EDIT: I found the value of the teams. According to Forbes, The red sox are #3 in value, behind the yankees and the mets, and in front of the Dodgers. This was according to the 2007 season.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/33/biz_baseball08_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Rank.html

Looking at that, looks like the Red Sox are #2 as far as revenue ...

Casey at the Bat
01-01-09, 09:42 PM
Looking at that, looks like the Red Sox are #2 as far as revenue ...
#2 in revenue, and still operating at a loss. Of course, Yankees are #1 in revenue and #1 operating loss too!

Casey at the Bat
01-17-09, 09:43 AM
You all just didn't know what you were talking about...


"With the signing of Kevin and the signing of Dustin Pedroia earlier this off season, those investments really reflect our priorities as an organization and who we want to be, which is a team full of home grown talent trained in the Red Sox way, and able to compete at the highest level for a world championship year in and year out," Epstein said.

Uhhh, Theo.... Paps, Youk, Pedroia, and that center fielder kid make FOUR homegrown players on your starting nine.

I'm assuming Mr. Beckett is in charge of training the youngsters in "The Red Sox Way."

ieddyi
01-17-09, 10:00 AM
I don't know why this matters at all. We shouldn't have to defend the Yankees from Red Sox fans wiping away bitter tears. Their philosophy is not hard and fast, nor is it how they won in 2004. They wanted Teixiera. If they were not in the bidding for any major free agents, you could understand.

I don't understand how this is anything other than, "Well I never really wanted him anyway!"

Stop dignifying what are borderline trolls with responses that we actually have to go and think out. Just point out to them that John Henry's hedge fund is sucking more wind than a vacuum cleaner and they'll go off and pout for another few days.

His funds did great this year. It was the previous years when they sucked so the assets under control is way down compared to previous years

Rice14
01-17-09, 11:20 AM
You all just didn't know what you were talking about...



Uhhh, Theo.... Paps, Youk, Pedroia, and that center fielder kid make FOUR homegrown players on your starting nine.

I'm assuming Mr. Beckett is in charge of training the youngsters in "The Red Sox Way."

Paps isn't part of the starting nine, did you mean Lowrie?

That number seems to be trending up though. As is often mentioned, the 2004 Sox had one homegrown player in their lineup. However, with the resources the Sox have, it wouldn't make sense to ever try to make it nine for nine. I think you need a good mixture of homegrown guys and guys you've targeted through trades or free agency.

Casey at the Bat
01-17-09, 11:43 AM
Paps isn't part of the starting nine, did you mean Lowrie?

That number seems to be trending up though. As is often mentioned, the 2004 Sox had one homegrown player in their lineup. However, with the resources the Sox have, it wouldn't make sense to ever try to make it nine for nine. I think you need a good mixture of homegrown guys and guys you've targeted through trades or free agency.

No, I just can't count. :)

aeromac76
01-17-09, 11:43 AM
I agree with what Theo said..
I'd rather have a parade with a bunch or merceneries than finish out of the running with home grown guys.
Just does not matter to me.
I think you have to pay attention to the farm because it allows you to get better and become a stringer team, not because I have any real affinity to players who came up with my team.

I love Jeter and Rivera more than others because they have won with us, not because they came up with us. Case in point,l I feel the same way about guys like Tino, Oneill and Cone. None home grown Yankees.

If I am watching my team walk away with the big prize more often than not, does not matter to me which team they came up with.

JimmyTheGent
01-17-09, 12:01 PM
What do you consider homegrown? Does the player have to be drafted by that team of could that player have been acquired as a minor league player and developed in their system?


According to this
http://www.soxprospects.com/40man.htm as of today the Red Sox have 12 players on their 40 man roster that they drafted. They have another 10 players who were either signed as an international free agent or acquired before making their ML debut with another team. Now that is a bit skewed because 2 of those players are Okajima and DiceK.

If you look at the projected 25 man roster for 2009 the Red Sox could have 10 players who they drafted, this is counting either Mark Wagner or Dusty Brow as a cather (assuming Varitek doesn't return) and Clay Bucholtz.

Both NY and Boston have their sdahe of home grown talant but when you have the resources they do you don't have to rely on that alone.

blumj
01-17-09, 12:20 PM
How could anyone be more strongly identified with the Red Sox than the not home grown under even the loosest possible definition Tim Wakefield?

SoxYanksBattle2009
01-17-09, 12:25 PM
It is very simple.. The Yankees made their BIG Play for the year by signing the top 3 free-agents available to the tune of $400 mill. No other team could come close to matching that kind of cash.

The Red Sox missed out on Tex and had to go to cheaper options. Obviously the Yankees improved more than the Red Sox did, but they really had to..they were forced to close the gap.. Also, whose to say the Sox signees won't work it...we will have to just wait and see.

The Red Sox now have an advantage from here on out however. The Sox get to see if their signings are panning out...they get to see if Lowell and Papi return to form.. As the Yankees have the preseason advantage in the free agent market, the Sox can TRUMP them at the trade deadline by having better prospects to dangle for any parts they may need. Just as the Yankees can OUTSPEND every team, the Red Sox can out-trade most teams mid-season, without crippling their major league roster.

The Yankees pushed ALL-IN preflop...and what a GREAT bet they made... Now the Sox need to stay close and see what the "Flop" brings... They can then go all-in or pack it in.. Should they decide to go all-in, they will have a HUGE advantage over the Yankees in acquiring talent for the stretch run come August.. This season is going to be fun to watch.

Zippythepinhead
01-17-09, 12:40 PM
I agree with what Theo said..
I'd rather have a parade with a bunch or merceneries than finish out of the running with home grown guys.
Just does not matter to me.
I think you have to pay attention to the farm because it allows you to get better and become a stringer team, not because I have any real affinity to players who came up with my team.

I love Jeter and Rivera more than others because they have won with us, not because they came up with us. Case in point,l I feel the same way about guys like Tino, Oneill and Cone. None home grown Yankees.

If I am watching my team walk away with the big prize more often than not, does not matter to me which team they came up with.

I generally agree with you, but all else equal, I think there's more enjoyment watching a player win when you followed him through the minors, saw him come up with the team and make all his "firsts" with your club, and then become a major leaguer, be it an average player or a star, and win with the team.

eaganmafia
01-17-09, 12:53 PM
I generally agree with you, but all else equal, I think there's more enjoyment watching a player win when you followed him through the minors, saw him come up with the team and make all his "firsts" with your club, and then become a major leaguer, be it an average player or a star, and win with the team.

Winning is winning, I don't care if it's 25 farmies or 25 guys from free agency and trades.

Rice14
01-17-09, 12:56 PM
I generally agree with you, but all else equal, I think there's more enjoyment watching a player win when you followed him through the minors, saw him come up with the team and make all his "firsts" with your club, and then become a major leaguer, be it an average player or a star, and win with the team.

I agree with that as well. I think there is some added satisfaction in seeing players your team scouted and developed turn out well, moreso than just players you gave a lot of money to. It's also harder to see those players possibly leave down the line.

I'd also rather win with mercenaries than lose with home grown players, but if you can somehow win with homegrown guys, I think it adds even more.

Zippythepinhead
01-17-09, 01:01 PM
Winning is winning, I don't care if it's 25 farmies or 25 guys from free agency and trades.

Fair enough. I've just had a different experience. Same goes for winning with players I like versus those I don't. I'll certainly take a World Series win, Super Bowl win, etc. with players I don't particularly like, but I have found it more enjoyable, albeit marginally so, I suppose, when I liked the players more.

teknetic
01-17-09, 01:21 PM
It is very simple.. The Yankees made their BIG Play for the year by signing the top 3 free-agents available to the tune of $400 mill. No other team could come close to matching that kind of cash.

The Red Sox missed out on Tex and had to go to cheaper options. Obviously the Yankees improved more than the Red Sox did, but they really had to..they were forced to close the gap.. Also, whose to say the Sox signees won't work it...we will have to just wait and see.

The Red Sox now have an advantage from here on out however. The Sox get to see if their signings are panning out...they get to see if Lowell and Papi return to form.. As the Yankees have the preseason advantage in the free agent market, the Sox can TRUMP them at the trade deadline by having better prospects to dangle for any parts they may need. Just as the Yankees can OUTSPEND every team, the Red Sox can out-trade most teams mid-season, without crippling their major league roster.

The Yankees pushed ALL-IN preflop...and what a GREAT bet they made... Now the Sox need to stay close and see what the "Flop" brings... They can then go all-in or pack it in.. Should they decide to go all-in, they will have a HUGE advantage over the Yankees in acquiring talent for the stretch run come August.. This season is going to be fun to watch.

Cashman has already shown that he can trade worthless/underperforming pieces for All-Star caliber talent. Trades are so fickle, I'm not even how you can say one team is better than another when it comes to it.

blumj
01-17-09, 01:45 PM
And Theo's been pretty lousy at deadline deals. I think the Sox have been better off promoting their prospects to be their midseason help, than by trading them for more veteran help.

eaganmafia
01-17-09, 02:19 PM
Cashman has already shown that he can trade worthless/underperforming pieces for All-Star caliber talent.

Either I'm too hung over cause I can't think of who your talking about?

Zippythepinhead
01-17-09, 02:30 PM
Either I'm too hung over cause I can't think of who your talking about?

Abreu, Swisher, possibly Nady/Marte?

eaganmafia
01-17-09, 04:26 PM
Abreu, Swisher, possibly Nady/Marte?

Abreu was a salary dump.

Cashman is buying Swisher at an all-time low and who knows if he'll bounce back from the abortion known as 2008.

Nady is an league average player who might be in NY for a half season and Marte is a bullpen piece.

teknetic
01-17-09, 04:52 PM
Abreu was a salary dump.

Abreu and Lidle were acquired by three no namers and a guy who's currently riding the Memphis bench.


Cashman is buying Swisher at an all-time low and who knows if he'll bounce back from the abortion known as 2008.

Why does this detract from anything? Williams gave up a ransom for Swisher and got nothing in return.


Nady is an league average player who might be in NY for a half season and Marte is a bullpen piece.

Again, why does this matter? Nady was coming off a career 1st half and he was acquired with a legit setup man for Tabata and a few prospects with no place on this team.

Zippythepinhead
01-17-09, 04:56 PM
Abreu was a salary dump.

Cashman is buying Swisher at an all-time low and who knows if he'll bounce back from the abortion known as 2008.

Nady is an league average player who might be in NY for a half season and Marte is a bullpen piece.

see teknetic's post