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Bleacher_Creature
06-13-08, 09:11 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/sports/baseball/13pins.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

It's going to be expensive, I don't think Melky, Kennedy + prospects gets this done, considering the other teams that may be involved.

Metroidman
06-13-08, 09:17 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/sports/baseball/13pins.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

It's going to be expensive, I don't think Melky, Kennedy + prospects gets this done, considering the other teams that may be involved.

Stupid to do it. I dont think he gets traded. He's gonna hit FA. I'd like to keep the Yankee young guns. We'd acutally have to give more for CC than we would've for Santana and the money would be the same. Just doesn't make sense.

Bleacher_Creature
06-13-08, 09:25 AM
Stupid to do it. I dont think he gets traded. He's gonna hit FA. I'd like to keep the Yankee young guns. We'd acutally have to give more for CC than we would've for Santana and the money would be the same. Just doesn't make sense.

If we could extend his contract then it might be worth it, depending on what we give up.

Metroidman
06-13-08, 09:27 AM
If we could extend his contract then it might be worth it, depending on what we give up.

But the logic doesn't make sense

We didn't trade for Santana to extend him to what will be the same contract. Why do it for a lesser pitcher whose the same age? This isnt' a knock against CC but if we didn't trade for Santana why give up MORE for CC?

primetime714
06-13-08, 09:31 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/sports/baseball/13pins.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

It's going to be expensive, I don't think Melky, Kennedy + prospects gets this done, considering the other teams that may be involved.

Melky, Kennedy, + prospects is the only thing that makes sense for us to offer. Cano? He's our only good offensive player under 30 if he wasn't having by far the worst year of his career everyone would laugh at the thought of dealing him. Hughes? We wouldn't give him up for Santana a pitcher who was assured to sign an extension, why give him up for Sabathia who is likely to test the waters of FA.

The Dynasty
06-13-08, 09:32 AM
But the logic doesn't make sense

We didn't trade for Santana to extend him to what will be the same contract. Why do it for a lesser pitcher whose the same age? This isnt' a knock against CC but if we didn't trade for Santana why give up MORE for CC?

What was the price for Santana? To this day, I don't think anyone outside of the Yankee brass knows that.

Metroidman
06-13-08, 09:33 AM
What was the price for Santana? To this day, I don't think anyone outside of the Yankee brass knows that.

Well the Hank deadline offer was Hughes/Melky + prospect

I still dont think CC gets traded and trading Cano for his is just plain stupid

You dont trade a guy when his value is in the toilet.

BRNXBMRS
06-13-08, 09:33 AM
The only way i would think about this, is if the Yanks can have a a window to negoiate a contract, and it depends who the Indians want back in return.

primetime714
06-13-08, 09:34 AM
If we could extend his contract then it might be worth it, depending on what we give up.

Others may disagree with me, but I feel like Sabathia has gotten this close to FA, so unless a team acquiring him blows him away with an offer he'll wait a little longer and gain the leverage of having several teams vieing for his services and willing to pay top dollar. It would help to get a head start on negotiations, but he isn't likely to sign for anything less than a ridiculous amount.

Abe Frohman
06-13-08, 09:35 AM
Im glad we didnt trade for santana and i want NO PART of Sabathia ... These are

exactly the kind of big - time desperate moves that we made a few years ago and

what has it gotten us ? nothing. Just look at Santana. Everyone thought he was a

lock for the Cy and hes nowhere near that ... in the NL !!! A deadline trade for CC will

be the most desperate move ever.

aeromac76
06-13-08, 09:36 AM
Others may disagree with me, but I feel like Sabathia has gotten this close to FA, so unless a team acquiring him blows him away with an offer he'll wait a little longer and gain the leverage of having several teams vieing for his services and willing to pay top dollar. It would help to get a head start on negotiations, but he isn't likely to sign for anything less than a ridiculous amount.

Easy way around that, you can ask for a 72 hour window to get an extension done or no deal..

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 09:41 AM
Trading a large package for Sabathia (assuming as large as what we potentially would have given up for Santana) is career suicide for Cashman.

teknetic
06-13-08, 09:45 AM
Eagerly awaiting another New York-Boston pissing match.

Metroidman
06-13-08, 09:46 AM
Eagerly awaiting another New York-Boston pissing match.

God no. I hope he just goes to FA

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-13-08, 09:51 AM
The Indians have absolutely no use for Melky.

koko
06-13-08, 09:52 AM
yep, expect the media to swoon over Lester + a bag of crap offer the Sox give them. Maybe they'll let Ellsbury just wear an Indians cap for a day as part of the deal too.

primetime714
06-13-08, 09:56 AM
Easy way around that, you can ask for a 72 hour window to get an extension done or no deal..

The Indians would be glad to give a window. The problem is they don't hold the cards here. Sabathia does. If he wants to wait and hit FA any acquiring team is going to have to take the chance that he'll leave. You can get a window to make the deal, but there are no signs that Sabathia is itching to sign an extension now that he is just over half a year away from having the whole league bid on him (well not the whole league, but you get the idea).

The Twins traded Santana before the beginning of this year because they knew he likely wouldn't sign an extension mid-year thus lowering his value in trade market. The Indians held onto Sabathia hoping they'd be able to win this year and maybe convince Sabathia to re-sign. Now that they have little chance of winning this year they're looking to trade him and will have to accept less because Sabathia is not likely to sign an extension or at least not likely to sign an extension for anything less than top dollar.

My guess is any extension talk with Sabathia is going to start at Santana's and Zito's. He is unlikely to sign for less money or years than either of those guys.

primetime714
06-13-08, 10:01 AM
Im glad we didnt trade for santana and i want NO PART of Sabathia ... These are

exactly the kind of big - time desperate moves that we made a few years ago and

what has it gotten us ? nothing. Just look at Santana. Everyone thought he was a

lock for the Cy and hes nowhere near that ... in the NL !!! A deadline trade for CC will

be the most desperate move ever.

Yea cause Santana is so far out of the race with his 2.85 ERA and 7 wins. Oh and he is a second half pitcher no less.

How many of these desperate moves of a few years ago got us Cy Young winners in their late 20's?

Metroidman
06-13-08, 10:06 AM
Yea cause Santana is so far out of the race with his 2.85 ERA and 7 wins. Oh and he is a second half pitcher no less.

How many of these desperate moves of a few years ago got us Cy Young winners in their late 20's?

Mike Mussina

And he was a FA

And he was better than both

shadyridr
06-13-08, 10:16 AM
The Indians have absolutely no use for Melky.

And unfortunately a HUGE need for a 2B.

IMO CLE will ask for Hughes & Cano :(

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 10:18 AM
And unfortunately a HUGE need for a 2B.

IMO CLE will ask for Hughes & Cano :(

They can ask for whatever they want. I don't think Cash would even entertain that thought for a minute.

I am fully against a trade for CC unless the centerpiece is IPK, which the Indians would never/should never agree to.

shadyridr
06-13-08, 10:20 AM
Im glad we didnt trade for santana and i want NO PART of Sabathia ... These are

exactly the kind of big - time desperate moves that we made a few years ago and

what has it gotten us ? nothing. Just look at Santana. Everyone thought he was a

lock for the Cy and hes nowhere near that ... in the NL !!! A deadline trade for CC will

be the most desperate move ever.

What are you smoking? 7 wins (would be 9 if it wasnt for Wagner), 2.85 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 86 Ks. Yeah hes dreadful.

shadyridr
06-13-08, 10:21 AM
They can ask for whatever they want. I don't think Cash would even entertain that thought for a minute.

I am fully against a trade for CC unless the centerpiece is IPK, which the Indians would never/should never agree to.

agreed

yankeeman61
06-13-08, 10:31 AM
Best thing that could happen with CC is for the Indians to somehow stay in the WC race long enough for them to think they still have a shot at it. Pretty tough without Hafner and V-Mart though.

primetime714
06-13-08, 10:39 AM
Mike Mussina

And he was a FA

And he was better than both

First off Moose was 32 his first year with the Yankees.

Secondly that turned out to be a good signing for us. He pitched well for us for the full length of that deal that we originally signed him to and then we re-signed him to the two year deal he is on now and he is still pitching well for us despite a significant dropoff in stuff. The only bad year he had for us was last year. The others were at worst decent.

You would be hard pressed to call the Mussina signing a poor one or simply a desperation move. He's also certainly not the reason we haven't won a championship since he signed.

primetime714
06-13-08, 10:41 AM
Best thing that could happen with CC is for the Indians to somehow stay in the WC race long enough for them to think they still have a shot at it. Pretty tough without Hafner and V-Mart though.

Yea I think the Martinez injury has them thinking about next year already. Especially when you couple that with the injuries to Carmona, Hafner, and Westbrook.

shadyridr
06-13-08, 10:46 AM
First off Moose was 32 his first year with the Yankees.

Secondly that turned out to be a good signing for us. He pitched well for us for the full length of that deal that we originally signed him to and then we re-signed him to the two year deal he is on now and he is still pitching well for us despite a significant dropoff in stuff. The only bad year he had for us was last year. The others were at worst decent.

You would be hard pressed to call the Mussina signing a poor one or simply a desperation move. He's also certainly not the reason we haven't won a championship since he signed.

Was MetroidMan calling Mussina a bad signing? If so thats a pretty dumb statement. Hes been a phenomenal Yankee and Cashman's best Free Agent signing ever. That being said Im not sure MetroidMan was even trying to say that.

YESSIR!
06-13-08, 11:00 AM
The Indians would be glad to give a window. The problem is they don't hold the cards here. Sabathia does. If he wants to wait and hit FA any acquiring team is going to have to take the chance that he'll leave. You can get a window to make the deal, but there are no signs that Sabathia is itching to sign an extension now that he is just over half a year away from having the whole league bid on him (well not the whole league, but you get the idea).

The Twins traded Santana before the beginning of this year because they knew he likely wouldn't sign an extension mid-year thus lowering his value in trade market. The Indians held onto Sabathia hoping they'd be able to win this year and maybe convince Sabathia to re-sign. Now that they have little chance of winning this year they're looking to trade him and will have to accept less because Sabathia is not likely to sign an extension or at least not likely to sign an extension for anything less than top dollar.

My guess is any extension talk with Sabathia is going to start at Santana's and Zito's. He is unlikely to sign for less money or years than either of those guys.

I dunno, Sabathia isn't having a monster year. Negotiating teams will be able to point to his 4-8 record, or whatever it is at trade time. If the Yankees traded for him and offered him $18-20 million a year, I think he'd take it. He risks finishing the season with mediocre numbers and hurting his overall value.

themgmt
06-13-08, 11:45 AM
Soo umm, where exactly in this article do the Yankees show they have interest? Looks like someone's speculation and nothing more.

No way they trade for Sabathia, after not trading for Santana.

YanksFan1992
06-13-08, 11:46 AM
If Cashman can somehow make it a reasonable enough trade, and Sabathia has to agree to an extension before hand I would be all for this.

The problem is I can't see Cleveland asking for something reasonable. :(

JL25and3
06-13-08, 12:36 PM
No way they trade for Sabathia, after not trading for Santana.That seems to be a common way of looking at it. The thing is, it's a very different situation now. Hughes is injured, again, and still hasn't been able to have any sustained success. Kennedy, frankly, has been a flop so far. Next year's rotation has holes, to say the least - but in the offseason, it looked like Sabathia would be available through free agency. Now, I wouldn't be too sure of that.

Sabathia's also a year younger than Santana, and even more of a horse. After an awful month of April, he's been pitching spectacularly (2.43 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 4.9 K/BB).

Now, I do think the Indians will ask for Cano, and I wouldn't give him up. But would I otherwise be interested in Sabathia? Hell yes.

smckdwn989
06-13-08, 12:36 PM
If Cashman can somehow make it a reasonable enough trade, and Sabathia has to agree to an extension before hand I would be all for this.

The problem is I can't see Cleveland asking for something reasonable. :(

can you blame them?

JohnnyDamonfan
06-13-08, 01:05 PM
I would do this depending on who we need to trade Let's not kid ourselves if he hits Free Agency there is at least a 80 percent chance that he signs with another team. I don't want to lose the kids. But I would hate the chance to get Sabathia even more. Let's think about for a sec once he hits free agency some team might be stupid enough to give him a 9 or maybe even 10 year contract. Now, chances are if some team does that it's not gonna be the Yankees (Nor would we want to be in such a long term deal with him) . This is kind of an opportunity that has opened up that can get Sabathia before anybody else can.

NelsonMuntz
06-13-08, 01:12 PM
That seems to be a common way of looking at it. The thing is, it's a very different situation now. Hughes is injured, again, and still hasn't been able to have any sustained success. Kennedy, frankly, has been a flop so far. Next year's rotation has holes, to say the least - but in the offseason, it looked like Sabathia would be available through free agency. Now, I wouldn't be too sure of that.

Sabathia's also a year younger than Santana, and even more of a horse. After an awful month of April, he's been pitching spectacularly (2.43 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 4.9 K/BB).

Now, I do think the Indians will ask for Cano, and I wouldn't give him up. But would I otherwise be interested in Sabathia? Hell yes.
I think this is a pretty fair perspective. I agreed with the decision to not trade for Santana, but I could completely understand if the Yankees made a deal for Sabathia (as long as they do not get robbed in the process). Sometimes things don't go as planned and you need to make adjustments.

JohnnyDamonfan
06-13-08, 01:19 PM
That seems to be a common way of looking at it. The thing is, it's a very different situation now. Hughes is injured, again, and still hasn't been able to have any sustained success. Kennedy, frankly, has been a flop so far. Next year's rotation has holes, to say the least - but in the offseason, it looked like Sabathia would be available through free agency. Now, I wouldn't be too sure of that.

Sabathia's also a year younger than Santana, and even more of a horse. After an awful month of April, he's been pitching spectacularly (2.43 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 4.9 K/BB).

Now, I do think the Indians will ask for Cano, and I wouldn't give him up. But would I otherwise be interested in Sabathia? Hell yes.

I'd be interested in Sabathia too. By the time we actually get Sabathia though I think they'd be doing pretty damn well. Unfortunately I think we might have to wish or hope Sabathia goes FA. Because as much as I hate to admit it and as much I believe we should trade for him now I think they'd be asking for to much.

Yankee Fan in Boston
06-13-08, 01:33 PM
If Cashman can somehow make it a reasonable enough trade, and Sabathia has to agree to an extension before hand I would be all for this.

The problem is I can't see Cleveland asking for something reasonable. :(

Well, if they keep him they get two high draft picks. So whatever we offered would have to have more value than that, to start.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 01:40 PM
This would be my exact answer as well:


Dan (Buffalo, NY): Jayson, don't you think the Yankees will be more desperate for Sabathia come July and therefore overspend for him? What are your thoughts on a Sabathia/Peralta for Cano and two mid level hitting prospects deal?

Jayson Stark: Brian Cashman would have to completely change philosophies to make that deal. For one thing, Robinson Cano and two "mid-level" prospects wouldn't do it. It's going to take three high-level young players. And if the Yankees wouldn't make that trade for Johan Santana, whom they at least would have had around for years, why would they make it for a rent-a-player? And while the obvious response is, they could negotiate and sign him, what would Sabathia want to give up free agency? He'd want (ta-taa) the Santana contract. So if he gets traded, how can it be to the Yankees?

MaximMan121
06-13-08, 01:43 PM
He won't cost three high level prospects. Why, you ask? Because no one is going to send that sort of talent for a rent a player. Those days are behind us.

He is going to want a santana contract, as stark says.

Do people really think he's a better pitcher than Santana? Why would anyone send something more than the group of prospects that the Mets sent Minnesota? It's the same reasoning.

And would you send Cano for the group of prospects the Mets sent Minnesota? I sure wouldn't.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 01:46 PM
He won't cost three high level prospects. Why, you ask? Because no one is going to send that sort of talent for a rent a player. Those days are behind us.

He is going to want a santana contract, as stark says.

Why then, would anyone send more than the Mets sent for Santana? And I wouldn't trade Cano alone for that package. Would you?

The part I really agree with was "how can he be traded to the Yankees?"

I would never, ever trade Cano for him.

As I said earlier, if Cash makes a trade for CC (assuming Phil or Cano are involved) and signs him to an extension it is career suicide.

R.V.47
06-13-08, 01:58 PM
The Indians need offense in the worst way, I dont see them making a deal with us just for some pitching prospects I suspect they will want major league talent hitting.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 01:59 PM
I think everyone agrees that Cano is off the table - if only because that just creates another hole at 2b.

Is he better than Santana? No, though he's really, really good. The problem is, Santana's not available. Sabathia is.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 01:59 PM
The Indians need offense in the worst way, I dont see them making a deal with us just for some pitching prospects I suspect they will want major league talent hitting.

Well if they were to make this trade, they wouldn't need any hitters that can contribute in 2008 since this would be throwing in the towel. Meaning Jackson would potentially cut it.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 02:00 PM
I think everyone agrees that Cano is off the table - if only because that just creates another hole at 2b.

Is he better than Santana? No, though he's really, really good. The problem is, Santana's not available. Sabathia is.

How do you explain trading for and signing CC to potentially the same contract as Johan when he is undoubtedly the inferior pitcher? Outraged is was I would be, I don't know about you though.

JohnnyDamonfan
06-13-08, 02:01 PM
The Indians need offense in the worst way, I dont see them making a deal with us just for some pitching prospects I suspect they will want major league talent hitting.

Well I think I'd be more willing to trade Major League offense. So depending on who they're asking for I'd be willing to make a deal.

owine
06-13-08, 02:01 PM
The price of this trade will be far too high. Sabathia is not the pitcher Santana is and if we weren't willing to deal for him, we can't change that stance. Sabathia has also had an off year and who knows if its a sign of decline beginning. Sabathia also is obviously a big fella and that could cause his health to decline faster than other pitchers.

Overall, unless we can get a really good price for Sabathia, I don't pull the trigger on this deal.

YanksFan1992
06-13-08, 02:02 PM
can you blame them?

Not at all.

But seeing how they are unlikely to retain him at the end of the year I am hoping their front office requires a little bit of a weaker package than they would need if he still had 3 years on his contract (I realize they probably wouldn't be shopping him then, but that's beside the point).

Hobie
06-13-08, 02:16 PM
The Yankees were (during the Santana talks) counting on Hughes and Kennedy to give them 170ish and 190ish innings respectively. That obviously is not going to be the case due to unforeseen injuries. Assuming Pettitte does not return for '09, Wang will be the only Yankee starter without an innings limit. They drastically need another reliable innings eater in this rotation to go along with Wang.

The original plan can (and probably should) change when you lose 2 starters.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not advocating trading Robbie for Sabathia, I just don't think these two situations are all that comparable.

YESSIR!
06-13-08, 02:19 PM
If the Indians ask for way too much, than they're not going to get anything but the draft picks after C.C. walks. There aren't many teams that can afford the guy in the first place. Out of those teams that can, very few are going to be willing to part with top talent, and have to deal with the fear that Sabathia might not agree to an extension (which I think he would, though). For these reasons, it seems likely to me that the guy reaches free agency. Or else, Cleveland needs to try to get a reasonable package of players that isn't over the top, but will likely be better than two random draft picks.

YanksFan1992
06-13-08, 02:19 PM
The Yankees were (during the Santana talks) counting on Hughes and Kennedy to give them 170ish and 190ish innings respectively. That obviously is not going to be the case due to unforeseen injuries. Assuming Pettitte does not return for '09, Wang will be the only Yankee starter without an innings limit. They drastically need another reliable innings eater in this rotation to go along with Wang.

The original plan can (and probably should) change when you lose 2 starters.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not advocating trading Robbie for Sabathia, I just don't think these two situations should be viewed in the same light.

Pettitte has repeatedly said he wants to pitch in the new Yankee Stadium, so unless he stinks up the joint in the next few months it looks like he'll most likely be with the Yankees in 09.

owine
06-13-08, 02:21 PM
I'm thinking the suitors will be the same suitors for Santana. Except the Mets are out, and the Red Sox have an overabundance of pitching so will probably not be in it unless they're just jacking up the price for the Yankees.

YESSIR!
06-13-08, 02:22 PM
I'm thinking the suitors will be the same suitors for Santana. Except the Mets are out, and the Red Sox have an overabundance of pitching so will probably not be in it unless they're just jacking up the price for the Yankees.

I think we have more pitching than the Sox. Cleveland will want an impact bat, which we don't really have outside of Cano. I think the Sox are better suited in that regard.

Hobie
06-13-08, 02:23 PM
Pettitte has repeatedly said he wants to pitch in the new Yankee Stadium, so unless he stinks up the joint in the next few months it looks like he'll most likely be with the Yankees in 09.

Even so, in '09 is Hughes going to have the same 170 IP limit he did this season? He's going to be another year seperated from his 146 IP '06 season.

owine
06-13-08, 02:24 PM
I think we have more pitching than the Sox. Cleveland will want an impact bat, which we don't really have outside of Cano. I think the Sox are better suited in that regard.By overabundance I meant major league ready pitching that is not injured.

owine
06-13-08, 02:25 PM
Even so, in '09 is Hughes going to have the same 170 IP limit he did this season? He's going to be another year seperated from his 146 IP '06 season.He's going to throw about 90 innings this year. All the injuries are really slowing his development process.

Art Vanderlay
06-13-08, 02:27 PM
They can ask for whatever they want. I don't think Cash would even entertain that thought for a minute.

I am fully against a trade for CC unless the centerpiece is IPK, which the Indians would never/should never agree to.

I agree. Cashman passed on Santana because he didn't want to pay the price in prospects and dollars. If he trades propects for Sabathia and then signs him to a long term deal he would be going againts his own publicly stated principle. I don't see how he can pull this off unless he somehow convinces Cleveland to take inferior prospects which is highly unlikely when you consider there will be multiple teams bidding.

Art Vanderlay
06-13-08, 02:28 PM
I'm thinking the suitors will be the same suitors for Santana. Except the Mets are out, and the Red Sox have an overabundance of pitching so will probably not be in it unless they're just jacking up the price for the Yankees.

The Cubs want Sabathia.

SoCal Pinstriper
06-13-08, 02:29 PM
Stupid to do it. I dont think he gets traded. He's gonna hit FA. I'd like to keep the Yankee young guns. We'd acutally have to give more for CC than we would've for Santana and the money would be the same. Just doesn't make sense. Two out of three of our "Young guns" have, to this point, proven to be more like the slingshots you made with rubber bands when you were a kid. They break a lot, and aren't very effective when they actually fire.

I'm all for a long term plan that includes building around younger, cost controlled pitching, but that pitching also has to step up and become effective in a relative hurry, because this team has large investments in players at or near significant decline (Alex, Jorge, Mo, and soon, Jeter).

If we adopt a "Do nothing and wait for the kids to develop" policy, we could easily find ouselves with a fine staff in 2010 that is hamstrung by a bunch of over the hill vets named above.

Basicly, I agree with:

Originally Posted by JL25and3
That seems to be a common way of looking at it. The thing is, it's a very different situation now. Hughes is injured, again, and still hasn't been able to have any sustained success. Kennedy, frankly, has been a flop so far. Next year's rotation has holes, to say the least - but in the offseason, it looked like Sabathia would be available through free agency. Now, I wouldn't be too sure of that.

Sabathia's also a year younger than Santana, and even more of a horse. After an awful month of April, he's been pitching spectacularly (2.43 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 4.9 K/BB).

Now, I do think the Indians will ask for Cano, and I wouldn't give him up. But would I otherwise be interested in Sabathia? Hell yes.
except that I would trade Cano if that gets it done. Serviceable middle infielders are available.

The entire franchise cannot be put on hold as we wait for Phil Hughes and friends to develop. That puts a ton of unneccessary pressure on them, and frankly, it just might not ever happen.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 02:32 PM
A lot of you guys don't seem to understand how big of an idiot Cashman would make himself look like if he were to make this trade.

JeterRodriguezSheff
06-13-08, 02:33 PM
That seems to be a common way of looking at it. The thing is, it's a very different situation now. Hughes is injured, again, and still hasn't been able to have any sustained success. Kennedy, frankly, has been a flop so far. Next year's rotation has holes, to say the least - but in the offseason, it looked like Sabathia would be available through free agency. Now, I wouldn't be too sure of that.

Sabathia's also a year younger than Santana, and even more of a horse. After an awful month of April, he's been pitching spectacularly (2.43 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 4.9 K/BB).

Now, I do think the Indians will ask for Cano, and I wouldn't give him up. But would I otherwise be interested in Sabathia? Hell yes.

This post wins the thread. Sadly I do not believe the Yankees and the Indians match up well for a trade.

SoCal Pinstriper
06-13-08, 02:34 PM
The Yankees were (during the Santana talks) counting on Hughes and Kennedy to give them 170ish and 190ish innings respectively. That obviously is not going to be the case due to unforeseen injuries. Injuries aside, neither one would be giving us innings at the ML level at this time. Both were completely ineffective, and would be pitching in the minors if they were healthy.

SoCal Pinstriper
06-13-08, 02:35 PM
A lot of you guys don't seem to understand how big of an idiot Cashman would make himself look like if he were to make this trade. If the shoe fits, he should wear it.

EDIT: ..and I don't think that he'd look that bad. He would just be admitting that he over-relied on unproven kids. Almost everybody, including myself, agreed with him at the time. Time to move on. It really isn't any different than mistakes that were made with Pavano and Igawa.

JeterRodriguezSheff
06-13-08, 02:38 PM
A lot of you guys don't seem to understand how big of an idiot Cashman would make himself look like if he were to make this trade.

What if we win a World Series because of it? Would he still look like an idiot? Would you even care?

Obviously I wouldnt want to get raped in a trade, but if its reasonable go for it. Our situation today is light years different from our situation in the offseason.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 02:40 PM
What if we win a World Series because of it? Would he still look like an idiot? Would you even care?

Obviously I wouldnt want to get raped in a trade, but if its reasonable go for it. Our situation today is light years different from our situation in the offseason.

No I wouldn't care at all obviously. At the same time, what if we don't end up making the playoffs even with CC? Cash would have just sent in his resignation forms, in effect.

I view this season as a transition year with the playoffs being gravy(even though we have a very, very large chance of making it). No trade for CC is allowable.

YESSIR!
06-13-08, 02:41 PM
A lot of you guys don't seem to understand how big of an idiot Cashman would make himself look like if he were to make this trade.

I don't agree with this because the landscape has changed significantly.

Also, I think going for C.C. would be a move that is highly motivated by ownership. Hank will likely want him. In that light, I don't think there's a ton of pressure on Cashman.

SoCal Pinstriper
06-13-08, 02:44 PM
No I wouldn't care at all obviously. At the same time, what if we don't end up making the playoffs even with CC? Cash would have just sent in his resignation forms, in effect.

I view this season as a transition year with the playoffs being gravy(even though we have a very, very large chance of making it). No trade for CC is allowable. getting CC isn't about making the playoffs this year. We should only do a deal if he signs a multi-year contract.

JohnnyDamonfan
06-13-08, 02:44 PM
What if we win a World Series because of it? Would he still look like an idiot? Would you even care?

Obviously I wouldnt want to get raped in a trade, but if its reasonable go for it. Our situation today is light years different from our situation in the offseason.

I really don't think getting one pitcher really helps our chances. Our major Problem has been offense anyway not pitching. I really want Sabathia. But, you can't really count on him to get us to the World Series unless you teach him to bat and spark up our offense.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 02:45 PM
getting CC isn't about making the playoffs this year. We should only do a deal if he signs a multi-year contract.

If getting CC isn't about making the playoffs this year, why in the world would we trade for him when he's a free agent in 5 months??

JL25and3
06-13-08, 02:46 PM
How do you explain trading for and signing CC to potentially the same contract as Johan when he is undoubtedly the inferior pitcher? Outraged is was I would be, I don't know about you though.Simple enough: I'm not comparing it to that deal. That was then, this is now. I think the Yankees need Sabathia now more than they needed Santana then - and that's the way Cashman can explain it.

It's not nearly as humiliating as you seem to think. Yeah, if Cashman had known he'd need Sabathia now, it would have been better to get Santana then. But that's not how things work. The issue here has nothing to do with Santana in December, only with Sabathia in June.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 02:47 PM
If getting CC isn't about making the playoffs this year, why in the world would we trade for him when he's a free agent in 5 months??Because a lot of us think he won't be a free agent in 5 months.

YESSIR!
06-13-08, 02:47 PM
I really don't think getting one pitcher really helps our chances. Our major Problem has been offense anyway not pitching. I really want Sabathia. But, you can't really count on him to get us to the World Series unless you teach him to bat and spark up our offense.

Our offense is coming around, and have been putting up better numbers. I think the longer they are healthy and playing together the better they're going to be. Consistent pitching is still our biggest issue, imo.

SoCal Pinstriper
06-13-08, 02:48 PM
If getting CC isn't about making the playoffs this year, why in the world would we trade for him when he's a free agent in 5 months?? we shouldn't unless he can be signed at the time of the trade.

Yankee Fan in Boston
06-13-08, 02:50 PM
Simple enough: I'm not comparing it to that deal. That was then, this is now. I think the Yankees need Sabathia now more than they needed Santana then - and that's the way Cashman can explain it.

It's not nearly as humiliating as you seem to think. Yeah, if Cashman had known he'd need Sabathia now, it would have been better to get Santana then. But that's not how things work. The issue here has nothing to do with Santana in December, only with Sabathia in June.

That's a bit shortsighted for me -- it puts too much emphasis on this season. I think they can only do this deal if they feel like they are giving up less than the Twins wanted (which might not be possible). If we start next year with, say, CC, Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes and Pettitte (or, if Pettitte retires, we have a Horne or someone else, with 5 starters below 30), Cashman will have still made us much younger and cheaper overall. I think this would have to be a better alternative than the Santana deal, not just better timing.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 02:50 PM
Because a lot of us think he won't be a free agent in 5 months.

What exactly would lead you to believe this? There is absolutely nothing in print that should make you think this. No quotes, nothing.

Do you realize it's a completely different animal doing this midseason and signing a MASSIVE extension as compared to what Johan did in the offseason? If I were CC, there is no reason to sign an extension whatsoever.

Yankee Fan in Boston
06-13-08, 02:51 PM
If getting CC isn't about making the playoffs this year, why in the world would we trade for him when he's a free agent in 5 months??

A lot of people here were saying the same thing about Santana. Good starting pitching almost never makes the FA market now.

Yankee Fan in Boston
06-13-08, 02:53 PM
What exactly would lead you to believe this? There is absolutely nothing in print that should make you think this. No quotes, nothing.

Do you realize it's a completely different animal doing this midseason and signing a MASSIVE extension as compared to what Johan did in the offseason? If I were CC, there is no reason to sign an extension whatsoever.

Fair point, but I bet the Indians try (unless they bounce back into the race, of course).

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 02:53 PM
A lot of people here were saying the same thing about Santana. Good starting pitching almost never makes the FA market now.

I will guarantee CC will hit free agency

There are a handful of teams that can sign him PERIOD. If one of those handful of teams (lets say the Dodgers for instance) is out of the playoff race, would they trade for him now knowing that he is of little use to them this season??

JL25and3
06-13-08, 02:53 PM
That's a bit shortsighted for me -- it puts too much emphasis on this season. I think they can only do this deal if they feel like they are giving up less than the Twins wanted (which might not be possible). If we start next year with, say, CC, Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes and Pettitte (or, if Pettitte retires, we have a Horne or someone else, with 5 starters below 30), Cashman will have still made us much younger and cheaper overall. I think this would have to be a better alternative than the Santana deal, not just better timing.I'm not saying it's about this season; I'd only make the deal for the long term. But either way, it's a much better alternative than the Santana deal because there is no Santana deal.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 02:55 PM
I will guarantee CC will hit free agencyFine. You guarantee that, I'll guarantee that he'll be traded to someone who signs him to a long-term deal. We're even.

fellows
06-13-08, 02:55 PM
A lot of you guys don't seem to understand how big of an idiot Cashman would make himself look like if he were to make this trade.

If it's for lesser prospects than Phil and for less money I don't think he would look stupid. The media will try to spin it as the same as the Santana situation, but I do not see it.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 02:56 PM
I'm not saying it's about this season; I'd only make the deal for the long term. But either way, it's a much better alternative than the Santana deal because there is no Santana deal.

I don't understand your logic (and I think you're a smart guy). Can I say that the Damon deal was a much better alternative than the Beltran deal because there was no Beltran deal?

YESSIR!
06-13-08, 02:56 PM
What exactly would lead you to believe this? There is absolutely nothing in print that should make you think this. No quotes, nothing.

Do you realize it's a completely different animal doing this midseason and signing a MASSIVE extension as compared to what Johan did in the offseason? If I were CC, there is no reason to sign an extension whatsoever.

I dunno, the Yankees would offer him a fat contract that would likely be about what he'd get on the open market. His full season numbers right now are not that great. What if he has another month like April? He runs the chance of hurting his value somewhat. I think that thought is probably on his mind. So if he's offered a great contract mid-season, he may be likely to sign it. When the money is in your face, it's often hard to say no.

Yankee Fan in Boston
06-13-08, 02:56 PM
I will guarantee CC will hit free agency

There are a handful of teams that can sign him PERIOD. If one of those handful of teams (lets say the Dodgers for instance) is out of the playoff race, would they trade for him now knowing that he is of little use to them this season??

You may be right -- you just can't count on it. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I don't think the Indians are even out of it yet, personally.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 02:57 PM
Fine. You guarantee that, I'll guarantee that he'll be traded to someone who signs him to a long-term deal. We're even.

How about you reply to the second part of my post you quoted.

MaximMan121
06-13-08, 03:07 PM
How about you reply to the second part of my post you quoted.

I'll do you both one better.

I guarantee that IF Sabathia is traded, he'll be signed to a long term deal by the team that trades for him. If he isn't traded, he will hit FA.

But you can't say one or the other until the market firms up.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 03:09 PM
I'll do you both one better.

I guarantee that IF Sabathia is traded, he'll be signed to a long term deal by the team that trades for him. If he isn't traded, he will hit FA.

But you can't say one or the other until the market firms up.

But the difference between this situation and the Johan situation is that the team that trades for him now is trading for current need to make the playoffs/put them over the top. The team that traded for Johan was trading for an ace that they can have going into 2008 and beyond. If a team that is trading for need at the deadline such as the Cardinals, would they be able to lock him up to a Santana sized deal? Or would they just put all their chips in for THIS YEAR and worry about his free agency later?

JL25and3
06-13-08, 03:12 PM
There are a handful of teams that can sign him PERIOD. If one of those handful of teams (lets say the Dodgers for instance) is out of the playoff race, would they trade for him now knowing that he is of little use to them this season??OK, you got it.

I'm looking at this as a long-term deal, not a quick fix, and it wouldn't surprise me if other teams do as well. That means that some team might want to make the trade because they want to lock Sabathia up right now, without taking the risk of the FA market.

Red Sox, Yankees, Angels, Cubs and Dodgers are the most obvious candidates, because they'd want him right now and can afford him. The Phillies and White Sox are probably in that mix as well. but with this kind of thing, you never know when a team is going to decide that Sabathia will alter the face of their team for the foreseeable future, and surprise you with their one-time willingness to spend. I wouldn't be all that surprised if teams like the Cardinals, Braves, Tigers or even Orioles might decide to get into the mix. And then there's always the team that surprises you, as the Giants did with Zito; heck, if the Rays decided to scrape up the money, they might be the best team in the league.

In other words, things just aren't as cut-and-dried as you make them seem.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 03:16 PM
There is absolutely no history of a team trading for a future FA for the sole purpose of securing him from becoming an FA in the offseason.

Please correct me if I'm wrong by bringing examples to the table.

Metroidman
06-13-08, 03:20 PM
Lots of playoff hunt teams would trade for CC just to try to get them over the top

And jeez you want CC? If you thought Wang tanked the playoffs last year do you even know what CC did?

YESSIR!
06-13-08, 03:20 PM
There is absolutely no history of a team trading for a future FA for the sole purpose of securing him from becoming an FA in the offseason.

Please correct me if I'm wrong by bringing examples to the table.

I know you're talking about mid-season, but isn't Santana something of an example? He was a future FA (after 2008) who was traded for to keep him off the market. Bottom line is, if a team wants Sabathia, and they think they have what it takes to get him, and they think they're best shot at getting him is via trade before the deadline, then they will likely try to do so, imo.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 03:21 PM
I don't understand your logic (and I think you're a smart guy). Can I say that the Damon deal was a much better alternative than the Beltran deal because there was no Beltran deal?
There's a very, very old joke about the woman who goes into the butcher shop and asks for a pound of ground beef. "That'll be $3.99," the butcher says.
"$3.99? But Rabinowitz down the street sells it for $3.79 a pound."
"OK, then buy it from Rabinowitz."
"He's out of it."
"Oh," the butcher says, "when I'm out of it it's only $3.49 ."

Look, in retrospect, if you're going to choose between them, of course Beltran is the better deal. But that's a false choice. They should have signed Beltran when they had the chance, but they didn't. That was a mistake. But when Damon came along, it wasn't a choice between Beltran and Damon anymore. The question was no longer whether they should sign Beltran or Damon; it was whether they should sign Damon, period. Beltran wasn't an option.

Same here. As I said, if they'd known they'd want Sabathia now, they should have traded for Santana then. But it's not then, it's now, and Santana simply isn't relevant anymore. The only question is whether you want Sabathia, and at what price.

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 03:21 PM
Lots of playoff hunt teams would trade for CC just to try to get them over the top

And jeez you want CC? If you thought Wang tanked the playoffs last year do you even know what CC did?

That's not even close to what I said in the previous post. And fine, lots of teams would for CC to try to get them over the top. Would that necessarily mean that lots of teams would ALSO be willing to give him what would likely be the second largest contract EVER for a pitcher?

YESSIR!
06-13-08, 03:21 PM
Lots of playoff hunt teams would trade for CC just to try to get them over the top

And jeez you want CC? If you thought Wang tanked the playoffs last year do you even know what CC did?

To be fair, Wang was much worse than Sabathia in the playoffs last year. C.C. was indeed bad, though (probably a fluke?).

Metroidman
06-13-08, 03:22 PM
I DONT WANT TO TRADE FOR SABATHIA

Why get another pitcher that will tank in the playoffs? Aren't we all tired of the 1 and done series of the playoffs?

YESSIR!
06-13-08, 03:23 PM
That's not even close to what I said in the previous post. And fine, lots of teams would for CC to try to get them over the top. Would that necessarily mean that lots of teams would ALSO be willing to give him what would likely be the second largest contract EVER for a pitcher?

I agree with you that the number of teams in play for Sabathia would be small. No more than 5 would be my guess.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 03:23 PM
I know you're talking about mid-season, but isn't Santana something of an example? He was a future FA (after 2008) who was traded for to keep him off the market. Bottom line is, if a team wants Sabathia, and they think they have what it takes to get him, and they think they're best shot at getting him is via trade before the deadline, then they will likely try to do so, imo.Right. I don't know if there are midseason examples - it'd take more research than I'd want to do now - but there are plenty of offseason examples. I don't see why the principle is any different.

Metroidman
06-13-08, 03:24 PM
To be fair, Wang was much worse than Sabathia in the playoffs last year. C.C. was indeed bad, though (probably a fluke?).

He had a 5.14ERA against us

a 10.45ERA against Boston

In 2001 he also didn't pitch well in the playoffs

I just dont think he's a pitcher that can handle pressure.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 03:27 PM
He had a 5.14ERA against us

a 10.45ERA against Boston

In 2001 he also didn't pitch well in the playoffs

I just dont think he's a pitcher that can handle pressure.He's got 1500 career IP, and 21 IP in the postseason. And you're going to judge his character on that basis?

Maybe he just didn't pitch all that well. It happens.

AcidLake
06-13-08, 03:28 PM
I'd absolutely love Sabathia.

We need BOBCAT for the inside coverage

THEBOSS84
06-13-08, 03:28 PM
He had a 5.14ERA against us

a 10.45ERA against Boston

In 2001 he also didn't pitch well in the playoffs

I just dont think he's a pitcher that can handle pressure.

Based on this sample, I think you'd be an A-rod hater too.

Metroidman
06-13-08, 03:29 PM
He's got 1500 career IP, and 21 IP in the postseason. And you're going to judge his character on that basis?

Maybe he just didn't pitch all that well. It happens.

He's had 4 starts in the playoffs

He didn't pitch well in any of them. I'm sorry but I just dont look at him and see a pitcher that can pitch well under pressure.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 03:31 PM
He's had 4 starts in the playoffs

He didn't pitch well in any of them. I'm sorry but I just dont look at him and see a pitcher that can pitch well under pressure.I'm sorry, but that's an absurd conclusion to reach. You really know nothing about the man's character based on 4 starts (one of them in 2001).

Edit: and, actually, he pitched quite well in the 2001 game.

Metroidman
06-13-08, 03:35 PM
I'm sorry, but that's an absurd conclusion to reach. You really know nothing about the man's character based on 4 starts (one of them in 2001).

Edit: and, actually, he pitched quite well in the 2001 game.

Did you look at his walk totals in that game?

I dont define that as pitching well

It was mostly luck.

knickfan23
06-13-08, 03:36 PM
The biggest contender for his services IMO are the Cubs.

It's been rumored about here. And it also serves the Indians well. Not only could the Cubs give them prospects due to Piniella's lack of caring for young players mixed in with the 100 year itch. Also, it gives Cleveland a chance to get him out of the American League and not have to see him...ever.

The directions of the two franchises are different. NY is looking to try and win now, but look 2-3 years down the road. The Cubs are in full WIN NOW mode and with the weakness of the NL, have as good as chance to get to the Series as any other team and then take their chances.

knickfan23
06-13-08, 03:37 PM
Lots of playoff hunt teams would trade for CC just to try to get them over the top

And jeez you want CC? If you thought Wang tanked the playoffs last year do you even know what CC did?

He tanked because he ran out of gas. Look at his innings splits through his career and compare that to last year. Then, justify how Eric Wedge could abuse him to the point of ineffectiveness in the playoffs.

The Indians organization played with a firecracker that was ready to go off at any moment.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 03:38 PM
Did you look at his walk totals in that game?

I dont define that as pitching well

It was mostly luck.Good god, man. You're looking at 2 runs in 6+ innings, and you're telling me the guy choked?

Whatever.

Hellsing
06-13-08, 03:44 PM
I have interest in other women, but my wife won't allow me to act on it.
(Kidding)

CC will hit Free Agency. The Red Sox have their 1-2-3 pitchers pretty much set with Beckett, Dice-K, & Lester. Would they REALLY go after CC?

I don't see any other team EXCEPT the Yankees signing Sabathia. (Unless he takes a discount to stay with Cleveland)

CallOfTheCrow
06-13-08, 03:47 PM
Jake Peavey stinks in the postseason too. Maybe we can trade Igawa, Giese, & Pettitte for him!

Art Vanderlay
06-13-08, 04:01 PM
I'm with BOSS on this one. I don't see how Cashman can trade for CC when he passed on Santana, unless of course Hank forces him to make the deal.

Method_62
06-13-08, 04:12 PM
Cleveland won't ask for something reasonable, that's out of the question.

And Cashman would look REALLY bad if he refused to trade for Santana because he wanted to keep his young talent, and conserve money but then turned around and traded for a pitcher who isn't as talented, and will probably cost you more.

I'll pass.

MaximMan121
06-13-08, 04:25 PM
I DONT WANT TO TRADE FOR SABATHIA

Why get another pitcher that will tank in the playoffs? Aren't we all tired of the 1 and done series of the playoffs?

Yep. Man, he sure stunk last year in that small sample size. Clearly he will again in the future.

By the way, Jay Bruce is in a 4-18 slump, with 3 singles and a double. Screw that guy. Clearly should be DFA'd.

MaximMan121
06-13-08, 04:27 PM
I'm with BOSS on this one. I don't see how Cashman can trade for CC when he passed on Santana, unless of course Hank forces him to make the deal.

My sense at this point is really that Hal and Cashman are like minded on most things, which means Hank gets little say in the matter. He's simply outvoted.

Which really means that Hal, as the swingman, has the most effect.

MaximMan121
06-13-08, 04:38 PM
But the difference between this situation and the Johan situation is that the team that trades for him now is trading for current need to make the playoffs/put them over the top. The team that traded for Johan was trading for an ace that they can have going into 2008 and beyond. If a team that is trading for need at the deadline such as the Cardinals, would they be able to lock him up to a Santana sized deal? Or would they just put all their chips in for THIS YEAR and worry about his free agency later?

Look, there's a chance that what you're suggesting will happen actually occurs. No team is willing to pony up the prospect trove, and so Cleveland has to stick to the "better than 2 draft picks" line.

But really, this is a classic economics 101 collusion discussion. Sure, if everyone decides to keep their offers low, then they'll all be better off, right? Whoever gets him will not have to give up a trove, so if you aggregate their chances of getting him, they're all better off.

But if one of those teams decides to up the ante, just a liiiittle bit, suddenly they've got a huge advantage over the other teams. They're only offering a little more than their competitors, so they're still not giving up THAT much, but they get the pitcher.

Well, what happens when you think this order of operations through? The next team is going to offer just a little bit more than the first offending team, and so on and so forth. It turns out that in real life application, we don't have nearly so much bidding. The teams all assume that he other teams are going to 'cheat' and offer better packages of talent for the trade target. The Indians, of course, will do nothing to alleviate this issue. Information doesn't flow freely.

And at that point, when it becomes clear that you do in fact have to pony up several solid prospects to get Sabathia, if you make the trade then how can you NOT sign him to a long term deal. Even if you just do it as a hedge--what happens if the prospects you've traded away turn into Liriano, Bonser and Nathan? Or even if they don't, what happens if you don't win, having fired of several of your major bullets to acquire someone?

Part of the GM game is that you can be fired at any moment. If you trade players for Sabathia and don't win that year, but have him for the future, you can at least point to the acquisition of Sabathia to head your team's pitching staff. What happens if you don't win the WS and you didn't sign him? It's a very clear waste of resources in the short term past, a very good way to get fired.

I simply don't see anyone acquiring him for peanuts. Similarly, I don't see him not getting signed, if he's traded. I think it's much more likely that he isn't traded, than that he is traded and still hits FA.

Stupid Flanders
06-13-08, 04:56 PM
Im glad we didnt trade for santana and i want NO PART of Sabathia ... These are

exactly the kind of big - time desperate moves that we made a few years ago and

what has it gotten us ? nothing. Just look at Santana. Everyone thought he was a

lock for the Cy and hes nowhere near that ... in the NL !!! A deadline trade for CC will

be the most desperate move ever.
Maybe you weren't alive in the 1990s when the Yankees traded for or signed the best pitchers available (Cone, Key, Wells) and then won 4 World Championships.

In Mo I Trust
06-13-08, 05:01 PM
The Yankees should be interested in CC, if he can be had for something reasonable at the trade deadline and signs an extension it is a no brainer IMO.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 05:09 PM
And Cashman would look REALLY bad if he refused to trade for Santana because he wanted to keep his young talent, and conserve money but then turned around and traded for a pitcher who isn't as talented, and will probably cost you more.Think of it this way. If the Yankees trade for - and sign - Sabathia now, yes, it will be clear that Cashman made a mistake with Santana.

But if the Yankees have pitching problems and Cashman has let not one but two chances slip away from him, how bad will he look then?

shadyridr
06-13-08, 07:00 PM
I DONT WANT TO TRADE FOR SABATHIA

Why get another pitcher that will tank in the playoffs? Aren't we all tired of the 1 and done series of the playoffs?

LMFAO

Prison Mike
06-13-08, 07:05 PM
The biggest contender for his services IMO are the Cubs.

It's been rumored about here. And it also serves the Indians well. Not only could the Cubs give them prospects due to Piniella's lack of caring for young players mixed in with the 100 year itch. Also, it gives Cleveland a chance to get him out of the American League and not have to see him...ever.

The directions of the two franchises are different. NY is looking to try and win now, but look 2-3 years down the road. The Cubs are in full WIN NOW mode and with the weakness of the NL, have as good as chance to get to the Series as any other team and then take their chances.

The Cubs don't have the pieces to do a deal.

Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall and Felix Pie isn't very sexy.

knickfan23
06-13-08, 07:46 PM
The Cubs don't have the pieces to do a deal.

Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall and Felix Pie isn't very sexy.

I'll put it this way..

The Yanks will be out in front with trade talks for at least the next 30 days. Suddenly, out of nowhere, the Red Sox will come in to "kick the tires" on a possible deal to c*ckblock the Yankees. The Indians will seriously consider the Red Sox deal under the impression that Boston really wants to make one, but are only in the deal for irritation and to drive the price up. The Yankees, not knowing if the Sox are really serious, will consider their options for a few days. Slowly, the team will back out and the Red Sox will be leaders. However the day before/of the deadline, they too will back out because they weren't serious in the first place. With limited options now, both the Cubs and the Phillies become players for CC and the Indians sell him off to one of those teams at 50-60 cents on the dollar.

Sound familiar? That same scenario more than likely will play out again just like it did this offseason. Whether the Yanks fall for it or not is another thing.

SoCal Pinstriper
06-13-08, 07:56 PM
I'll put it this way..

The Yanks will be out in front with trade talks for at least the next 30 days. Suddenly, out of nowhere, the Red Sox will come in to "kick the tires" on a possible deal to c*ckblock the Yankees. The Indians will seriously consider the Red Sox deal under the impression that Boston really wants to make one, but are only in the deal for irritation and to drive the price up. The Yankees, not knowing if the Sox are really serious, will consider their options for a few days. Slowly, the team will back out and the Red Sox will be leaders. However the day before/of the deadline, they too will back out because they weren't serious in the first place. With limited options now, both the Cubs and the Phillies become players for CC and the Indians sell him off to one of those teams at 50-60 cents on the dollar.

Sound familiar? That same scenario more than likely will play out again just like it did this offseason. Whether the Yanks fall for it or not is another thing.I'm looking foreward to at least ten versions of this thread too. :D

yanksphan
06-13-08, 07:58 PM
Cubs or Phillies for sure.

Then FA where he gets paid slightly less than Johan.

SoCal Pinstriper
06-13-08, 08:09 PM
I'm with BOSS on this one. I don't see how Cashman can trade for CC when he passed on Santana, unless of course Hank forces him to make the deal. He is armed with better information now than he had then. Both Hughes and IPK were, at least in a small sample size, complete and utter failures. They may or may not end up being serviceable ML pitchers. Anybody who says that they are certain didn't watch their starts.

Cashman assumed that they would be able to step up as valuable members of a contending team (like many of us, myself included). That assumption is now a giant variable. If he can be signed to a long term deal, CC has greater value to us now and in the near future than Johan did this winter (regardless of the differences in their abilities) because we need another pitcher more now than we did then.

Just as the Pettitte's decision to come back meant that the Yankees needed Santana less this winter, the kid's failures mean that we need CC more for next season ans beyond. That is a pretty easy sell for Cashman.

BomberBrian
06-13-08, 10:06 PM
depending on the cost i'd actually be interested in CC with an eye on letting him walk at the end of the year.

ppa79
06-13-08, 10:10 PM
If the Yanks want CC, just sign him in the offseason. Boston or the Mets aren't trading for him. I can't think of another team that will give him big money.

bmxstreetrider86
06-13-08, 10:22 PM
Cubs or Phillies for sure.

Then FA where he gets paid slightly less than Johan.



and who are they going to trade in order to get CC?


neither of them has anything remotely attractive, maybe carlos carrasco

MaximMan121
06-13-08, 11:08 PM
and who are they going to trade in order to get CC?


neither of them has anything remotely attractive, maybe carlos carrasco

If the Phillies get him, I'd expect them to sign him. I expect them to go HARD after him in the offseason if he hits FA. They've got an incredible offense and no pitching, plus they have some money to spend.

Hellsing
06-13-08, 11:18 PM
The Phils would be so LHP reliant that it seems like a mistake. IDK...wouldn't a RH dominant line-up spell doom against them with Hamels AND Sabathia. In a short series it might hurt them.

However, they score more than a college QB at a late-night party that it hardly matters.

JL25and3
06-13-08, 11:41 PM
The Phils would be so LHP reliant that it seems like a mistake. IDK...wouldn't a RH dominant line-up spell doom against them with Hamels AND Sabathia. In a short series it might hurt them.

However, they score more than a college QB at a late-night party that it hardly matters.Sabathia's essentially the same against lefties and righties.

Career against RHB: .251/.315/.391
Career against LHB: .249/.308/.379

NelsonMuntz
06-13-08, 11:46 PM
Maybe you weren't alive in the 1990s when the Yankees traded for or signed the best pitchers available (Cone, Key, Wells) and then won 4 World Championships.
Not to mention, some guy named Roger Clemens.

primetime714
06-13-08, 11:57 PM
What exactly would lead you to believe this? There is absolutely nothing in print that should make you think this. No quotes, nothing.

Do you realize it's a completely different animal doing this midseason and signing a MASSIVE extension as compared to what Johan did in the offseason? If I were CC, there is no reason to sign an extension whatsoever.

Finally someone gets it. CC has no reason to sign an extension for anything less than an absurd amount (i.e. the largest contract ever given to a pitcher). Especially since he'll have no loyalty to the team acquiring him.

JL25and3
06-14-08, 12:04 AM
Finally someone gets it. CC has no reason to sign an extension for anything less than an absurd amount (i.e. the largest contract ever given to a pitcher). Especially since he'll have no loyalty to the team acquiring him.One good reason would be a bird in the hand. A pitcher's always one pitch away from Dr. Andrews.

Bottom line is, it's presumptuous to think we know what Sabathia is thinking. Me, I wouldn't assume anything.

primetime714
06-14-08, 12:38 AM
One good reason would be a bird in the hand. A pitcher's always one pitch away from Dr. Andrews.

Bottom line is, it's presumptuous to think we know what Sabathia is thinking. Me, I wouldn't take the cahnce.

Ok but he's been willing to take the chance up until now, why would he accept less with only a few months left before FA?

He's had no injury history and I'm sure given the situation he was probably smart enough to take out a pretty large insurance policy.

You're right I don't know what Sabathia is thinking, but I do know that he holds all the cards and has all the leverage when it comes to signing an extension. So far he's held out for more money and more years from Cleveland, a team that he has openly said that he really enjoys playing for. It just doesn't make sense for him to suddenly flip for a team that he has no loyalty to. Granted they will certainly be offering more than Cleveland, but if it isn't near a record setting type deal, what's the motivation? A few extra months of security?

I'm not saying that him signing an extension won't happen, I'm just saying its unlikely because his demands should be sky high. To the point where the team that acquires him may be better off waiting it out and bidding against the field versus bidding against themselves. It may also help for them to wait and let Sabathia get settled and comfortable with a new team/city. Increasing the chances that he'll want to sign long term with them. Finally what about the risk to the acquiring team what if Sabathia does get injured and they just signed him to a 6-7 year deal or what if he flames out in the playoffs again would they even want him back?

Maybe Sabathia will be more reasonable in his demands than I expect, but I don't see any logical reason why he wouldn't ask for the moon.

JL25and3
06-14-08, 12:57 AM
Ok but he's been willing to take the chance up until now, why would he accept less with only a few months left before FA?

He's had no injury history and I'm sure given the situation he was probably smart enough to take out a pretty large insurance policy.

You're right I don't know what Sabathia is thinking, but I do know that he holds all the cards and has all the leverage when it comes to signing an extension. So far he's held out for more money and more years from Cleveland, a team that he has openly said that he really enjoys playing for. It just doesn't make sense for him to suddenly flip for a team that he has no loyalty to. Granted they will certainly be offering more than Cleveland, but if it isn't near a record setting type deal, what's the motivation? A few extra months of security?

I'm not saying that him signing an extension won't happen, I'm just saying its unlikely because his demands should be sky high. To the point where the team that acquires him may be better off waiting it out and bidding against the field versus bidding against themselves. It may also help for them to wait and let Sabathia get settled and comfortable with a new team/city. Increasing the chances that he'll want to sign long term with them. Finally what about the risk to the acquiring team what if Sabathia does get injured and they just signed him to a 6-7 year deal or what if he flames out in the playoffs again would they even want him back?

Maybe Sabathia will be more reasonable in his demands than I expect, but I don't see any logical reason why he wouldn't ask for the moon.I'm with the earlier poster who said that if CC is traded, he will be signed. I don't think any team is going to trade for him without an extension. That may well mean he doesn't get traded, but if he is, I don't expect him to get to the FA market.

As for the risk to the signing team that he does get injured: that's true of any FA signing, there's nothing different in this case. And the possibility of a bad postseason - or his team simply not getting there despite trading for CC - looks to me like another good reason for him to sign sooner rather than later.

nnysiny
06-14-08, 09:56 AM
CC's last 10 starts:
73 1/3 IP
73:13 K/BB ratio
2.09 ERA
.235/.278/.336/.614

Meecham4ever
06-14-08, 10:14 AM
There's a very, very old joke about the woman who goes into the butcher shop and asks for a pound of ground beef. "That'll be $3.99," the butcher says.
"$3.99? But Rabinowitz down the street sells it for $3.79 a pound."
"OK, then buy it from Rabinowitz."
"He's out of it."
"Oh," the butcher says, "when I'm out of it it's only $3.49 ."

Look, in retrospect, if you're going to choose between them, of course Beltran is the better deal. But that's a false choice. They should have signed Beltran when they had the chance, but they didn't. That was a mistake. But when Damon came along, it wasn't a choice between Beltran and Damon anymore. The question was no longer whether they should sign Beltran or Damon; it was whether they should sign Damon, period. Beltran wasn't an option.

Same here. As I said, if they'd known they'd want Sabathia now, they should have traded for Santana then. But it's not then, it's now, and Santana simply isn't relevant anymore. The only question is whether you want Sabathia, and at what price.

Why is Rabinowitz out of ground beef? Is he behind with his supplier?

JL25and3
06-14-08, 10:40 AM
Why is Rabinowitz out of ground beef? Is he behind with his supplier?No, Bronstein was the one who backed into the meat grinder and got little behind in his work.

primetime714
06-14-08, 01:42 PM
I'm with the earlier poster who said that if CC is traded, he will be signed. I don't think any team is going to trade for him without an extension. That may well mean he doesn't get traded, but if he is, I don't expect him to get to the FA market.

As for the risk to the signing team that he does get injured: that's true of any FA signing, there's nothing different in this case. And the possibility of a bad postseason - or his team simply not getting there despite trading for CC - looks to me like another good reason for him to sign sooner rather than later.

I understand your point of view on this but I still disagree. I think a lot will be determined by what the Indians ask for him. If they're demanding a king's ransom in terms of prospects then the acquiring team will demand that CC sign an extension. However I believe that CC is not willing to do that (as I've already stated doesn't make sense for him) which means that Cleveland will have to lower their prospect demands if they want to trade him. If Cleveland does that I could definitely see a team like the Cubs, Yankees, or other big market teams trading for him with no extension in hopes they can make a push this year and also hoping that they'll be able to re-sign him when he hits FA. That's what I expect to happen.

JeffWeaverFan
06-14-08, 03:12 PM
I'd prefer to wait it out until the year. Unlike Santana, Sabathia will definitely see free agency at the end of the year, so you literally are only trading for half a season of a pitcher.

smckdwn989
06-14-08, 04:26 PM
I'd prefer to wait it out until the year. Unlike Santana, Sabathia will definitely see free agency at the end of the year, so you literally are only trading for half a season of a pitcher.

again that's not true. if he is dealt you can bet that the team dealing for him will request a window to negotiate a new deal with him.

JeffWeaverFan
06-14-08, 04:37 PM
again that's not true. if he is dealt you can bet that the team dealing for him will request a window to negotiate a new deal with him.
And why would he agree to a new deal? He's a couple months from reaching free agency. Unless you give him a Santana-like deal, he's not going to agree to anything. The value of the ability to give a pitcher a 7 year deal at $19M a year is very small.

smckdwn989
06-15-08, 12:21 AM
And why would he agree to a new deal? He's a couple months from reaching free agency. Unless you give him a Santana-like deal, he's not going to agree to anything. The value of the ability to give a pitcher a 7 year deal at $19M a year is very small.

because the team dealing for him won't be trading big time prospects for him unless they know that they will be retaining sabathia for much longer than half a year.

Abe Frohman
06-15-08, 12:23 AM
What are you smoking? 7 wins (would be 9 if it wasnt for Wagner), 2.85 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 86 Ks. Yeah hes dreadful.

And hes gonna win the Cy over Webb or Volquez ??? what are YOU smoking ? Hes

good but i thought with the inferior NL lineups wouldve made him look even nastier.

Still, we need to stay away from these Big - Time pitching contracts. These guys

come to the bronx and crumble under the hot lights or Just soak in the sun on the DL

while we all wallow in the suck ...

YanksFan1992
06-15-08, 12:27 AM
And hes gonna win the Cy over Webb or Volquez ??? what are YOU smoking ? Hes

good but i thought with the inferior NL lineups wouldve made him look even nastier.

Still, we need to stay away from these Big - Time pitching contracts. These guys

come to the bronx and crumble under the hot lights or Just soak in the sun on the DL

while we all wallow in the suck ...

Besides Chacon, who was the last pitcher who came from an NL background to the Yankees and succeded (there's probably someone really obvious, but I really can't recall one).

teknetic
06-15-08, 12:37 AM
And hes gonna win the Cy over Webb or Volquez ??? what are YOU smoking ? Hes

good but i thought with the inferior NL lineups wouldve made him look even nastier.

Still, we need to stay away from these Big - Time pitching contracts. These guys

come to the bronx and crumble under the hot lights or Just soak in the sun on the DL

while we all wallow in the suck ...

Your posting "style" reminds me of this;

http://www.simprograms.com/images/funny/unique-poster.jpg


The only "big-time pitching contract" signee that crumbled (injured) was Pavano. Everyone (Unit, Vasquez, Brown, etc) were all minor contracts that were washed away. If you're gonna let Carl Pavano prevent you from signing premium pitching talent, then I'm not really sure what to say.

diehardyankeefan
06-15-08, 12:41 AM
I think the Yankees need a better SU/middle reliever than trying to throw away the farm system for Sabathia. I don't think the rotation is a problem for the Yankees now.

smckdwn989
06-15-08, 12:50 AM
I think the Yankees need a better SU/middle reliever than trying to throw away the farm system for Sabathia. I don't think the rotation is a problem for the Yankees now.

the yankees should be able to address this area from within. cox, robertson, melancon could all step in and be big bullpen additions.

brian fuentes is one guy though who I wouldn't mind seeing setup for mo. but his price will be too much i think.

AMYanks
06-15-08, 05:02 AM
In recent years, I've become a Sabathia fan, more than I used to be. He's a guy I definitely wouldn't mind signing to the big contract, especially given the circumstances (lots of money coming off the books). But for the price it would take to get him during the season, I wouldn't want to take the chance of him just being a second half rental. But in the off-season, I'd pay him. Durable, lefty, proven AL success, and would be in his prime for just about the entire contract.

CC
Joba
Wang
Hughes
IPK/Rasner/Horne/etc.

That's a rotation built for long-term success.

JohnnyDamonfan
06-15-08, 07:37 AM
But, here's the thing what if he doesn't hit the Free agent market? I read something on page 2 saying he might not hit the Free Agent market and might get an extension from Cleaveland. Now, that shouldn't be any excuse to trade for him so I ask you hypthetically what if CC signs back with Cleaveland who do you think we should get? Cause I really don't trust a rotation of Wang/Hughes/Kennedy/Chamberlain/Rasner/Horne etc.

ppa79
06-15-08, 07:50 AM
I think in the end of the day, Sabathia will end up signing with Cleveland.

yankeebot
06-15-08, 08:11 AM
I think in the end of the day, Sabathia will end up signing with Cleveland.
I think he wanted to but I also think if that were going to happen, they would have worked out an extension before the season started. Now that he's come this far, it's hard for me to imagine him not testing FA. He's going to want the Johan deal or something very close to it. I don't think the Indians will do that.

JeffWeaverFan
06-15-08, 10:36 AM
because the team dealing for him won't be trading big time prospects for him unless they know that they will be retaining sabathia for much longer than half a year.
And unless they agree to give him the same deal Santana got, he'll say no.

Abe Frohman
06-15-08, 10:52 AM
Your posting "style" reminds me of this;

http://www.simprograms.com/images/funny/unique-poster.jpg


The only "big-time pitching contract" signee that crumbled (injured) was Pavano. Everyone (Unit, Vasquez, Brown, etc) were all minor contracts that were washed away. If you're gonna let Carl Pavano prevent you from signing premium pitching talent, then I'm not really sure what to say.

You guys wont stop with my typing huh ? how were the Unit and Brown minor

contracts ? wasnt Brown over $100 mil ? Cashman has a bad track record in these

matters and should just stay away from Sabathia .

yankeebot
06-15-08, 11:12 AM
You guys wont stop with my typing huh ? how were the Unit and Brown minor

contracts ? wasnt Brown over $100 mil ? Cashman has a bad track record in these

matters and should just stay away from Sabathia . The Yankees share of Brown's contract was about $31.5M. Same with Randy Johnson. I disagree with teknetic that those were minor contracts but both were old and on the downside of their careers when acquired. CC is at his peak. Apples and oranges.

And your typing style is a very odd. :P

yankeeman61
06-15-08, 11:14 AM
You guys wont stop with my typing huh ? how were the Unit and Brown minor

contracts ? wasnt Brown over $100 mil ? Cashman has a bad track record in these

matters and should just stay away from Sabathia .

Let me get this straight. Cashman should stay away from a 27-year old CC because of his history of signing old pitchers who were well past their time? Were Johnson and Brown Cashman's idea?

Just because some poor decisions were made in the past, does it mean you shouldn't take any chances with a top flite LHP? An "ace" pitcher?

If you're saying Cashman is incapable of making a good decision then why bother having him as the GM?

By the way, I don't give a damn how you type as long as it's in English.

smckdwn989
06-15-08, 12:06 PM
And unless they agree to give him the same deal Santana got, he'll say no.

clearly you seem to know all about what santana will or will not do.

and might i add if a team like the cubs or phillies deals for him, they would have the money to give him a deal like that.

Yankees Empire
06-15-08, 01:27 PM
The only "big-time pitching contract" signee that crumbled (injured) was Pavano. Everyone (Unit, Vasquez, Brown, etc) were all minor contracts that were washed away. If you're gonna let Carl Pavano prevent you from signing premium pitching talent, then I'm not really sure what to say.

I agree that Carl Pavano is a very poor analogy. Pavano had one good year with an otherwise very mediocre track record and the Yankees (very foolishly) backed up a Brinks truck full of cash for him.

C.C. Sabathia is still young and has shown a record of steady improvement every year he has been in the Bigs. He's not a flash-in-the-pan.

Now, I always worry about giving a long-term deal to a pitcher, no matter how good he is. Too much can happen. But if you are going to give a long-term deal to any pitcher, C.C. is pretty much the perfect candidate.

Greenwave81
06-15-08, 02:51 PM
They can ask for whatever they want. I don't think Cash would even entertain that thought for a minute.

I am fully against a trade for CC unless the centerpiece is IPK, which the Indians would never/should never agree to.

Unless he's willing to sign a long term deal, they might not get offered more than that.

But I guess the offer has to be better than the two comp draft picks.

primetime714
06-15-08, 04:11 PM
because the team dealing for him won't be trading big time prospects for him unless they know that they will be retaining sabathia for much longer than half a year.

That's not Sabathia's problem! Just cause a team gives up big time prospects for him doesn't mean he has to sign an extension with them. That's Cleveland's problem. If Sabathia won't sign an extension they'll have to take lesser prospects in return.

teknetic
06-15-08, 04:16 PM
Start your engines..

AMYanks
06-15-08, 05:11 PM
But, here's the thing what if he doesn't hit the Free agent market? I read something on page 2 saying he might not hit the Free Agent market and might get an extension from Cleaveland. Now, that shouldn't be any excuse to trade for him so I ask you hypthetically what if CC signs back with Cleaveland who do you think we should get? Cause I really don't trust a rotation of Wang/Hughes/Kennedy/Chamberlain/Rasner/Horne etc.

If Cleveland knew they had a chance at re-signing him, I have to believe they would have made a better offer than they made before the season (I think it was only 4 years). At this point, I definitely think he'll at least test the market even if he does in the end return to Cleveland.

JL25and3
06-15-08, 05:39 PM
Y'know, suddenly a Sabathia deal is looking a whole lot more attractive.

THEBOSS84
06-15-08, 05:47 PM
Y'know, suddenly a Sabathia deal is looking a whole lot more attractive.

Right now the Indians are closer to their division leader than the Yanks are. The Indians would have to be playing considerably worse if they plan on trading CC.

themgmt
06-15-08, 05:48 PM
not really...

1) because, no not really
2) if the trade happened it would be towards the trade deadline, Wang would be back by then, unless of course it's a very serious injury

teknetic
06-15-08, 05:50 PM
Right now the Indians are closer to their division leader than the Yanks are. The Indians would have to be playing considerably worse if they plan on trading CC.

They're still not going anywhere. Hafner is the offensive version of Gagne and VMart is gone for a while.Big blows for an offense that already is somewhat mediocre even with those two.

NelsonMuntz
06-15-08, 05:54 PM
You guys wont stop with my typing huh ? how were the Unit and Brown minor

contracts ? wasnt Brown over $100 mil ? Cashman has a bad track record in these

matters and should just stay away from Sabathia .
Are you typing on an iPhone by any chance or are the mid-sentence hard returns an OCD-related habit?

THEBOSS84
06-15-08, 06:02 PM
They're still not going anywhere. Hafner is the offensive version of Gagne and VMart is gone for a while.Big blows for an offense that already is somewhat mediocre even with those two.

Well they are still hanging around and they have Carmona coming back soon. Carmona/CC/Lee could make the Indians looking for hitting at the deadline as opposed to selling.

nnysiny
06-15-08, 06:26 PM
CC had a 10:1 ratio today :drool:

TheJobaRules
06-15-08, 06:39 PM
Man, the Indians are going to ask for a lot. I really think Sabathia would be the type of addition that could put the Yankees over the top, but I don't want a big piece of the future to be sacrificed.

Tough call for Cashman.

BRONXBOMBERS06
06-15-08, 06:44 PM
May as well package Tabata in the CC sweepstakes.

ARoDfan4life
06-15-08, 06:49 PM
None of this is going to happen. It's amazing how people jump to the panic wheel so easily. No one knows how long Wang is out, Cleveland is not trading CC right now and the Yankees are not buying right now. It's been said many times by Cash he will first check from within for a resource before he makes any move. Meaning Horne, Marquez, McCutchen or even Aceves has an oppurtunity before anything outside gets done.

And give it a rest 19 yr. old Jose Tabata and 21 yr. old Austin Jackson is not going anywhere. Nor is Cano.

AlbanyColonieYankee
06-15-08, 07:33 PM
None of this is going to happen. It's amazing how people jump to the panic wheel so easily. No one knows how long Wang is out, Cleveland is not trading CC right now and the Yankees are not buying right now. It's been said many times by Cash he will first check from within for a resource before he makes any move. Meaning Horne, Marquez, McCutchen or even Aceves has an oppurtunity before anything outside gets done.

And give it a rest 19 yr. old Jose Tabata and 21 yr. old Austin Jackson is not going anywhere. Nor is Cano.

I am not convinced of that. Not every single prospect is going to make it, and part of the value of having a strong farm system is in having trade chips. Cashman has said so himself.

I don't think that he is going to dump the whole farm and make a panic move, but he is going to explore whether a reasonable move can be made.

To use the Red Sox as an example, everyone points to the strong players that have come through their farm system, but the big trade for Beckett and Lowell was a big part of their recent success as well. The key is not to make no trades but to make the right ones.

nnysiny
06-15-08, 07:49 PM
May as well package Tabata in the CC sweepstakes.
i would have no problem moving Tabata for CC, but its going to cost a lot more than that

knickfan23
06-15-08, 07:51 PM
Man, the Indians are going to ask for a lot. I really think Sabathia would be the type of addition that could put the Yankees over the top, but I don't want a big piece of the future to be sacrificed.

Tough call for Cashman.

The man would be 27 or 28 years old when you'd acquire him. What do you mean "the future would be sacrificed"?

knickfan23
06-15-08, 08:06 PM
They're still not going anywhere. Hafner is the offensive version of Gagne and VMart is gone for a while.Big blows for an offense that already is somewhat mediocre even with those two.

Define that phrase please.

Here is the problem. Unless you think the White Sox are going to run away from the Central, which they wont. Or the Tigers are going to come back and then run away from the pack in the next 45 days, the Indians are not going to be far out to where they are going to pack it in.

They are 5.5 games behind in the Central now. They have the pitching once Carmona comes back to catch Chicago. If you are the Indians, what sense would it make to wave the white flag? Its not like they are competing with the Red Sox or Angels, where packing it in would be a smart decision.

Surely Shapiro will kick the tires on a deal. But once July 31 comes, they'll more than likely be in the same position they are now if not closer because Chicago isnt good enough to pull away. If you were Cleveland, would you just give up the season like that?

I would not. That's why there's really only about a 10% chance of him being traded.

MickJaggersMate
06-15-08, 08:11 PM
The Yankees do not need C.C. That's it, enough said. Enough with the wild conclusions.

JL25and3
06-15-08, 08:18 PM
I didn't say a Sabathia deal was any more likely than it was this morning, just that he's looking a hell of a lot more attractive.

ppa79
06-15-08, 08:48 PM
I didn't say a Sabathia deal was any more likely than it was this morning, just that he's looking a hell of a lot more attractive.

He still doesn't guarantee the Yanks anything. Even if the Yanks acquire him they could still miss the playoffs. IMO, I think its better to go stick with the plan and let the kids develop. We soon should have a powerhouse starting staff and bullpen. We just need to be a little patient.

Yankeesfan811
06-15-08, 09:09 PM
C.C. is a great pitcher, don't get me wrong, but two things worry me with him:

1. he is overweight, and that might become a problem as he gets older.

2. he threw 240+ innings last year, and his arm is showing it this year, as he is off to an awful start.

themgmt
06-15-08, 09:13 PM
C.C. is a great pitcher, don't get me wrong, but two things worry me with him:

1. he is overweight, and that might become a problem as he gets older.

2. he threw 240+ innings last year, and his arm is showing it this year, as he is off to an awful start.

Is it April again? He's pitched exceptionally since then

JL25and3
06-15-08, 09:14 PM
C.C. is a great pitcher, don't get me wrong, but two things worry me with him:

1. he is overweight, and that might become a problem as he gets older.

2. he threw 240+ innings last year, and his arm is showing it this year, as he is off to an awful start.He's not off to an awful start anymore. He had a terrible April, but he's been superb since then.

NyyNjnNyg
06-15-08, 09:43 PM
Now with Wang hurt, the Indians will demand more knowing the Yanks have a greater need..it's not gonna happen unless the front office decides to get rid of everyone in the farm

BronxBombersMRP
06-15-08, 09:46 PM
Now with Wang hurt, the Indians will demand more knowing the Yanks have a greater need..it's not gonna happen unless the front office decides to get rid of everyone in the farm

I would hope that they wouldnt do that. Like you said though if Wang's injury is serious and he has to go on the DL, Yanks may bring someone up or look to make a big move. Lets hope Wang only misses one start and it's a none issue.

walesave
06-15-08, 10:01 PM
I hope this remains a rumor. Sabathia does eat innings from the left side but I'm not a big fan of his .271 BAA.

JL25and3
06-15-08, 10:06 PM
I hope this remains a rumor. Sabathia does eat innings from the left side but I'm not a big fan of his .271 BAA.Again, that's a function of a terrible April.

Opposing OPS by month:

April .911
May .663
June .607

The guy is a really good pitcher.

NyyNjnNyg
06-15-08, 10:07 PM
And look, in my opinion, if we were gonna make a deal for a front line guy it should have been Santana. Personally, I did not want to deal away prosepcts for Johan, but if I had to choose one guy, it would be him. Trading for Sabathia is a downgrade and would imply that the Yankees think they screwed up this offseason.

teknetic
06-15-08, 10:12 PM
Define that phrase please.

Here is the problem. Unless you think the White Sox are going to run away from the Central, which they wont. Or the Tigers are going to come back and then run away from the pack in the next 45 days, the Indians are not going to be far out to where they are going to pack it in.

They are 5.5 games behind in the Central now. They have the pitching once Carmona comes back to catch Chicago. If you are the Indians, what sense would it make to wave the white flag? Its not like they are competing with the Red Sox or Angels, where packing it in would be a smart decision.

Surely Shapiro will kick the tires on a deal. But once July 31 comes, they'll more than likely be in the same position they are now if not closer because Chicago isnt good enough to pull away. If you were Cleveland, would you just give up the season like that?

I would not. That's why there's really only about a 10% chance of him being traded.

Sizemore's their best hitter and after that, who? Hafner isn't good anymore and he's on the DL. Martinez was their best hitter out of the gate, and he's on the shelf for a few months. The Sox might just edge out the division title because the division is pretty mediocre. As bad as the Tigers pitching staff is, getting back Zumaya and Rodney should help somewhat.

I don't expect a trade to go down, but I wouldn't rule it out either. I'm pretty confident when I say the Indians won't make the playoffs.


And look, in my opinion, if we were gonna make a deal for a front line guy it should have been Santana. Personally, I did not want to deal away prosepcts for Johan, but if I had to choose one guy, it would be him. Trading for Sabathia is a downgrade and would imply that the Yankees think they screwed up this offseason.

Or that they'd prefer to go after a younger pitcher who's just entered his prime and also hasn't seen his overall "stuff" decline. He'd also be somewhat cheaper.

AcidLake
06-15-08, 10:16 PM
Just do it (either by trade of FA)

http://ballsiest.com/sportsblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/cc-sabathia.jpg

TheJobaRules
06-15-08, 10:20 PM
The man would be 27 or 28 years old when you'd acquire him. What do you mean "the future would be sacrificed"?

C.C. is a durable innings eater who has ace stuff, but you have to assume the Yankees would be sending multiple prospects to Cleveland. I guess part of the purpose of building up the farm was so that it was deep enough to make a move like this. There would still be plenty of great young talents coming up through the farm.

I'm not saying I'm against this move, I'm just assuming that it could be a tough call for Cashman. He and Oppenheimer have rebuilt the farm so well over the last four or five years, and we saw how hesistant he was to deal for Johan. Sure the Twins were asking for way too much, but what's to say Shapiro won't do the same thing?

This is all a moot point if Cleveland decides against trading him, of course.

NyyNjnNyg
06-15-08, 10:28 PM
Or that they'd prefer to go after a younger pitcher who's just entered his prime and also hasn't seen his overall "stuff" decline. He'd also be somewhat cheaper.

I'm not saying I wanted Santana, cause I didn't..I actually don't want either guy.

Even if he is cheaper, it still would be quite a haul for Cleveland.

shadyridr
06-15-08, 10:32 PM
The Yankees do not need C.C. That's it, enough said. Enough with the wild conclusions.

:lol:

shadyridr
06-15-08, 10:34 PM
C.C. is a great pitcher, don't get me wrong, but two things worry me with him:

1. he is overweight, and that might become a problem as he gets older.

2. he threw 240+ innings last year, and his arm is showing it this year, as he is off to an awful start.

He kind of reminds me a lot of David Wells. Fat, lefthanded, pinpoint accuracy, rubber arm & Wells through effectively into his 40's.

JL25and3
06-16-08, 12:36 AM
And look, in my opinion, if we were gonna make a deal for a front line guy it should have been Santana. Personally, I did not want to deal away prosepcts for Johan, but if I had to choose one guy, it would be him. Trading for Sabathia is a downgrade and would imply that the Yankees think they screwed up this offseason.Again: Santana is irrelevant. You can't choose between Sabathia and Santana anymore. They didn't feel they needed Santana then, not at that price - but it's not then, it's now, and it's a different situation. If they feel they need Sabathia now, it's silly to back off because they should have gotten Santana instead.

Honestly, that argument doesn't make a lick of sense.

JohnnyDamonfan
06-16-08, 07:58 AM
Y'know, suddenly a Sabathia deal is looking a whole lot more attractive.

Yeah, it is. But, even if there is something seriously wrong with Wang(Knock on wood there isn't. What happened? I work at the movie theater on Sunday. I read that he sprained his right foot running the bases or something. But, the more I read comments from people the more I worry that it wasn't just a sprained right foot. Could anyone go into detail about what happened if that's not what happened)

Dealing for Sabathia isn't really what I want to do. Sure, the Sabathia deal seems extremely attractive. But, it wouldn't be so attractive when we lose maybe 3 or 4 of our good guys for him. It would be a panic move and since that's the case they might end up charging more. When are Hughes and Kennedy coming off the DL? Anytime soon? I think I heard Hughes will come off the DL sometime in July but I'm not sure.

YankeePride1967
06-16-08, 08:14 AM
If Sabathia was going to be costly in terms of prospects Saturday, the Yankees price went up even more yesterday.

primetime714
06-16-08, 09:44 AM
At this point regardless of how long Wang is out, I'm inclined to say that we simply shouldn't deal for Sabathia:

1) I feel there is only a small chance he doesn't reach FA (see my previous posts)
1b) I don't feel Sabathia is willing to sign a reasonable extension, he's gotten this close why not go to FA and let the market compete for him?
2) Cleveland is not out of it yet so if they're going to deal him they're going to want enough in return for them to give up on the season.
3) Taking the chance that he does reach FA this offseason puts us in outstanding shape for next year as our minor league system will still be full and we'll have a chance to acquire him for nothing but money and a 1st round pick. This will open us up to trade opportunities elsewhere and to use our prospects to strengthen the team now.
4) While not giving up on this year at all, I feel our chances in 2009 are going to be significantly better.
5) Adding Sabathia this year guarantees us nothing for 2008. I think if we added him we'd almost certainly make the playoffs, but are we better than Boston or Anaheim or the Cubs? And even if we are, the playoffs never go exactly how you expect them to.

Martini6196
06-16-08, 09:56 AM
Watching what has happened with our "can't miss prospects" (Hughes and Kennedy) makes a Sabathia deal more attractive to me right now.

Martini6196
06-16-08, 09:58 AM
At this point regardless of how long Wang is out, I'm inclined to say that we simply shouldn't deal for Sabathia:

1) I feel there is only a small chance he doesn't reach FA (see my previous posts)
1b) I don't feel Sabathia is willing to sign a reasonable extension, he's gotten this close why not go to FA and let the market compete for him?
2) Cleveland is not out of it yet so if they're going to deal him they're going to want enough in return for them to give up on the season.
3) Taking the chance that he does reach FA this offseason puts us in outstanding shape for next year as our minor league system will still be full and we'll have a chance to acquire him for nothing but money and a 1st round pick. This will open us up to trade opportunities elsewhere and to use our prospects to strengthen the team now.
4) While not giving up on this year at all, I feel our chances in 2009 are going to be significantly better.
5) Adding Sabathia this year guarantees us nothing for 2008. I think if we added him we'd almost certainly make the playoffs, but are we better than Boston or Anaheim or the Cubs? And even if we are, the playoffs never go exactly how you expect them to.

With C.C. Sabathia we are just as good as any of the teams you've mentioned. If the offense is clicking then the answer is YES.

JohnnyDamonfan
06-16-08, 10:32 AM
Watching what has happened with our "can't miss prospects" (Hughes and Kennedy) makes a Sabathia deal more attractive to me right now.

Bottom line we DO NOT want to trade for CC. Trust me all those good prospects we have in the farm will be gone. First it would be a panic move and any team will make us pay even more if they know we're in trouble and it's a panic move. And most teams don't like to trade in their division anyway. The fact of the matter is this I think he is just to pricy player wise to even consider it. So unless we can make a deal I am fine with what we have. I have got a question how good is McCutchen? I heard in the paper they might bring him up for Wang's next start.

ksison
06-16-08, 10:41 AM
Im with you, I'm a big fan of the keeping our youth. If the Yanks were to get CC, it should be via FA

JohnnyDamonfan
06-16-08, 10:47 AM
Im with you, I'm a big fan of the keeping our youth. If the Yanks were to get CC, it should be via FA

Exactly! Our major problem is hitting anyway. So let's say we get CC our problem still remains. So we would have lost valuable prospects and it wouldn't help us if the hitting doesn't pick up.

YanksFan1992
06-16-08, 10:53 AM
Here's the latest from MLB Trade Rumors:


The Indians are "thoroughly scouting" eight teams that may be interested in C.C. Sabathia, including the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, and Dodgers (the Mets may be another). Gammons agrees with Ken Rosenthal that Mark Shapiro may trade Sabathia soon to maximize his value. Gammons does not see the Yanks jumping in with Phil Hughes or a multi-prospect offer, unless Chien-Ming Wang's injury forces their hand. He does not think the Cubs or Phillies have the goods, but suggests the Rangers as a dark horse.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/06/gammons-latest.html

DaSh 1s
06-16-08, 10:54 AM
Just do it (either by trade of FA)

http://ballsiest.com/sportsblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/cc-sabathia.jpg

Where was this picture taken? How come I have never seen this?

shadyridr
06-16-08, 11:16 AM
Exactly! Our major problem is hitting anyway. So let's say we get CC our problem still remains. So we would have lost valuable prospects and it wouldn't help us if the hitting doesn't pick up.

what?

JohnnyDamonfan
06-16-08, 11:19 AM
what?

In other words our major problem is the hitters always either striking out or not hitting when we have runners on base. Maybe I am phrasing what I said wrong but I think at least 70 percent of the games we played that were losses could have turned out to be wins if we got some timely hits.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 11:27 AM
In other words our major problem is the hitters always either striking out or not hitting when we have runners on base. Maybe I am phrasing what I said wrong but I think at least 70 percent of the games we played that were losses could have turned out to be wins if we got some timely hits.

We're 4th in the AL in runs scored (1 behind DET), 3rd in BA. Our problem is pitching (like usual)

Bleacher_Creature
06-16-08, 11:48 AM
Here are some "updates/speculation" on the Sabathia rumors.

"With Robinson Cano struggling, the Yankees might trade Cano to the Indians in a deal involving CC Sabathia. If I am the Indians, I do this trade in a heart beat, but we'll see what happens."
http://www.mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

"
Scouts were in Cleveland yesterday (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/121360503391080.xml&coll=2&thispage=1) to watch him pitch, though Paul Hoynes doesn't identify the teams.
With Chien-Ming Wang's season in peril, the Yankees' interest in Sabathia has increased according to Tyler Kepner (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/sports/baseball/16yankees.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin).
In his Mock Blockbuster series, Dayn Perry suggests (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7665) the Cardinals should trade Colby Rasmus and Bryan Anderson for Sabathia."
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

"The Yankees were interested in him before Wang’s injury, and their need has become more acute. Sabathia can be a free agent after the season, and the Yankees have the payroll space to afford him and the prospects to obtain him.
The Yankees resisted a similar deal last winter, passing on the chance to add Johan Santana (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/johan_santana/index.html?inline=nyt-per), but the stakes are different now. The Yankees are four games over .500 for the first time this season, seemingly ready to make their move into playoff contention."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/sports/baseball/16yankees.html?ref=sports

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-16-08, 11:54 AM
Who plays 2nd if Cano is traded?

shadyridr
06-16-08, 11:55 AM
Id trade Hughes well before Cano. Please dont trade Cano :(

THEBOSS84
06-16-08, 12:16 PM
Took about selling low on Cano....NEVER would I trade him for CC. That is an insane thought.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 12:17 PM
Took about selling low on Cano....NEVER would I trade him for CC. That is an insane thought.

I wouldnt exactly call trading Cano for a Cy Young winner selling low.

THEBOSS84
06-16-08, 12:19 PM
I wouldnt exactly call trading Cano for a Cy Young winner selling low.

Considering he'll be a free agent in 4 months and we can sign him for only $$$, I would.

YankeesAce4Life
06-16-08, 12:24 PM
All because Cano is struggling at the plate? :mad:

I want C.C., but I wouldn't trade Cano for him. I'd give them Kennedy, Hawkins and a few other prospects for C.C.

GET IT DONE CASH!

Yankee Tripper
06-16-08, 12:25 PM
Who plays 2nd if Cano is traded?I'm sure we could get Ray Durham from SF for little more than picking up the remainder or this year's salary. He's horrid defensively but is having a good year with the stick so far.

Then throw some money at Orlando Hudson next.

That said I would not want to deal Robbie for CC unless unless an extension for CC was signed, sealed and delivered.

Poeman
06-16-08, 12:26 PM
All because Cano is struggling at the plate? :mad:

I want C.C., but I wouldn't trade Cano for him. I'd give them Kennedy, Hawkins and a few other prospects for C.C.

GET IT DONE CASH!

they are not taking kennedy for sabathia

the rays can make a much better offer...its gonna have to be more

knickfan23
06-16-08, 12:26 PM
what?

I'll try to decode what he may be trying to say.

Because the offense has been inconsistent, it has put a strain on the bullpen that wont be felt until later in the season. No reasonable can sit back and say offense has at no point been an issue this season. Scoring 2 one day and 13 the next would equate to scoring 7.5 runs per game, but that has not been the case on average (see: KC series 6/6 to 6/9).

Because the offense has not "put away" games and kept the margins within reasonable comeback numbers, this is allowing Girardi to use Rivera far too regularly. Jose Veras, if he continues to pitch the way he has, is next in line for overuse.

If these games were ending 6-2 instead of 4-2, the "A group" of bullpen guys would not have to be counted on so frequently.

Hopefully I was able to shed some light on what his point may have been.

knickfan23
06-16-08, 12:27 PM
All because Cano is struggling at the plate? :mad:

I want C.C., but I wouldn't trade Cano for him. I'd give them Kennedy, Hawkins and a few other prospects for C.C.

GET IT DONE CASH!

Tell me you are joking with Hawkins.

YankeesAce4Life
06-16-08, 12:27 PM
I'm sure we could get Ray Durham from SF for little more than picking up the remainder or this year's salary. He's horrid defensively but is having a good year with the stick so far.

Then throw some money at Orlando Hudson next.

That said I would not want to deal Robbie for CC unless unless an extension for CC was signed, sealed and delivered.

Um yeah, Ray Durham or Robinson Cano? Cano>Durham

I would not even throw Cano's name into this trade. DON'T DO IT CASH!

Smartin681
06-16-08, 12:28 PM
Bottom line we DO NOT want to trade for CC. Trust me all those good prospects we have in the farm will be gone. First it would be a panic move and any team will make us pay even more if they know we're in trouble and it's a panic move. And most teams don't like to trade in their division anyway. The fact of the matter is this I think he is just to pricy player wise to even consider it. So unless we can make a deal I am fine with what we have. I have got a question how good is McCutchen? I heard in the paper they might bring him up for Wang's next start.

Im going to respectfully disagree with you here.. we have a plethora of prospects that are moving up in our farm system. Its not like 2003 when our minor league system was one of the worst in baseball. So trading for Sabathia wouldnt hurt too badly. Cleveland also wouldnt be trading CC within their divison since they are in the AL central. The Santana comparisons need to stop too.. CC is 4 years younger! and has been pitching much better since his slow april start.

The offense seems to be finally living up to expectations, and adding a stud pitcher to the rotation could only help.

YankeesAce4Life
06-16-08, 12:28 PM
Tell me you are joking with Hawkins.

We need to get rid of him anyway. Throw him into the deal.

THEBOSS84
06-16-08, 12:29 PM
Tell me you are joking with Hawkins.

Can you start one of those "run" threads like last year? They were great.

YankeesAce4Life
06-16-08, 12:29 PM
they are not taking kennedy for sabathia

the rays can make a much better offer...its gonna have to be more

Well obviously Kennedy wouldn't be the only guy.

YankeesAce4Life
06-16-08, 12:29 PM
Can you start one of those "run" threads like last year? They were great.

He pitched great yesterday....in a blow out. :o

Yankee Tripper
06-16-08, 12:34 PM
Um yeah, Ray Durham or Robinson Cano? Cano>Durham

I would not even throw Cano's name into this trade. DON'T DO IT CASH!

Umm the trade was Cano for Sabathia I thought. and the question was who would play 2B if we dealt Robbie for CC. I was thowing out one short term solution for the rest of this year.

Obviuosly Cano>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Durham long term but if you can land an ace in CC and sign him to an extension they I'd seriously consider dealing Cano and I've been a huge Robbie supporter this year even though his prolonged slump.

JL25and3
06-16-08, 12:36 PM
Im going to respectfully disagree with you here.. we have a plethora of prospects that are moving up in our farm system. Its not like 2003 when our minor league system was one of the worst in baseball. So trading for Sabathia wouldnt hurt too badly. Cleveland also wouldnt be trading CC within their divison since they are in the AL central. The Santana comparisons need to stop too.. CC is 4 years younger! and has been pitching much better since his slow april start.

The offense seems to be finally living up to expectations, and adding a stud pitcher to the rotation could only help.Actually, Sabathia's only 16 months younger than Santana. But the main reason to stop making that comparison is that it's irrelevant.

Good point about the farm system, and excellent use of "plethora."

I want CC, a lot, but I wouldn't trade Cano for him.

YankeesAce4Life
06-16-08, 12:36 PM
Umm the trade was Cano for Sabathia I thought. and the question was who would play 2B if we dealt Robbie for CC. I was thowing out one short term solution for the rest of this year.

Obviuosly Cano>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Durham long term but if you can land an ace in CC and sign him to an extension they I'd seriously consider dealing Cano and I've been a huge Robbie supporter this year even though his prolonged slump.

No kidding the trade was Cano for Sabathia...I was just saying that I'd rather have Cano over Ray Durham at 2nd anyday of the week. I would not trade Cano due to the fact that there would be a lack of defense at 2nd. I'd give a bunch of prospects for Sabathia, but Cano is off limits.

JL25and3
06-16-08, 12:37 PM
Maybe once upon a time the Yankee problem was hitting. With Wang out - and the team picking up the offense - that's changed.

Smartin681
06-16-08, 12:51 PM
Actually, Sabathia's only 16 months younger than Santana. But the main reason to stop making that comparison is that it's irrelevant.

Good point about the farm system, and excellent use of "plethora."

I want CC, a lot, but I wouldn't trade Cano for him.

My bad.. for some reason I thought that Santana was 32.. dont know what I was thinking lol..

Cano is going to rebound, he probably wont hit .300 but .280 could be a reality if he heats up like he did last summer. No need to trade him, there are plenty of other bait, the only question is, will Shapiro bite?

MaximMan121
06-16-08, 12:57 PM
We're 4th in the AL in runs scored (1 behind DET), 3rd in BA. Our problem is pitching (like usual)

He's right, actually. Here's a modified version of a run differential analysis that I put together a bit ago:

The purpose of run differential is to extract a bit of luck from the wins and losses, by using only runs to predict how many wins the team really should have. I go one step further, and modify runs scored and runs allowed using a coefficient made up of .avg and .avg w/RISP. Before everyone waves their hands and shouts about how .avg is outdated--it isn't for the purposes of this analysis. with a runner in scoring position, a hit will get a run in most of the time. A walk, however, will very rarely get one in (only if the bases are loaded) so we can't include OBP for this analysis without skewing the results. Similarly, that triple that Curtis Granderson hits with a man on third doesn't do any more in terms of scoring THAT run than a single would have, so we shouldn't overweight slugging either. Yes, these are slightly balanced out by the sac fly, or by multi-rbi instances, but these are outweighed by pure .avg.

So, here are the run differentials as they stand
Red Sox: +70
Yankees: +12
Rays: +25
Tigers: -9
Indians: +22
Angels: +1 (!!)
Athletics: +52 (!!!!)
White Sox: +60

However, if you modify them using this avg. coefficient (with the understanding that over time, .avg and .avg w/RISP should be equal--or if you want to argue it, w/RISP should be a bit higher due to constraints on the pitcher) you get:
Red Sox: +91
Yankees: +50
Rays: +32
Tigers: +22
Indians: -15
Angels: 0
Athletics: +59
White Sox: +25

So, as you can see, the Yanks have 2nd place in the AL East firmly in hand. This doesn't take into account injuries, and with Posada and A-Rod in the lineup, I think our modified differential will accelerate towards Boston's pretty quickly, even with the Wang injury.

The really amazing thing about this analysis is that the A's are spanking the Angels in differential. The Angels have been wiiiildly lucky so far. This data was all taken from ESPN, but that specific part of the analysis has me questioning the validity of ESPN's data recording (however, at the moment I don't have the time to redo it via another source).

If they are accurate, then Beane has to be even smarter than we've already given him credit for. Sheesh.

Also, it shows that the White Sox have been really lucky as well, 35 extra runs due to timely hitting.

Martini6196
06-16-08, 01:11 PM
Im going to respectfully disagree with you here.. we have a plethora of prospects that are moving up in our farm system. Its not like 2003 when our minor league system was one of the worst in baseball. So trading for Sabathia wouldnt hurt too badly. Cleveland also wouldnt be trading CC within their divison since they are in the AL central. The Santana comparisons need to stop too.. CC is 4 years younger! and has been pitching much better since his slow april start.

The offense seems to be finally living up to expectations, and adding a stud pitcher to the rotation could only help.

I can't imagine Hank Steinbrenner allowing the Yankees to miss out on getting Sabathia if Wang is out for the season. He let Cashman do it his way with the Santana trade but Hughes and Kennedy have crapped the bed this season. This could end up being a Steinbrenner deal because he doesn't want to miss out on another ace.

I think the Yankees should definitely make a run at Sabathia (without giving up Cano). The rotation would look like this in 2009:

C.C.
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Moose

With Hughes and Kennedy waiting in the minors.

MaximMan121
06-16-08, 01:14 PM
I can't imagine Hank Steinbrenner allowing the Yankees to miss out on getting Sabathia if Wang is out for the season. He let Cashman do it his way with the Santana trade but Hughes and Kennedy have crapped the bed this season. This could end up being a Steinbrenner deal because he doesn't want to miss out on another ace.

I think the Yankees should definitely make a run at Sabathia (without giving up Cano). The rotation would look like this in 2009:

C.C.
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Moose

With Hughes and Kennedy waiting in the minors.

There's just about 0 chance we have both Pettitte and Mussina in 2009.

MissingBillyMartin
06-16-08, 01:22 PM
Mike Mussina

And he was a FA

And he was better than both

Mussina was not better than Santana. I can see an argument for Mussina being better than Sabathia (probably was although Mussina was a lot older and got a ridiculous contract at the time).

teknetic
06-16-08, 01:37 PM
Would anyone laugh if the Rays jumped in and blew everyone away? I know it doesn't seem too likely, but they have the talent to do it. Signing him to an extension is another thing, but a possible rotation of Kazmir, Sabathia, Shields, Price, and Garza makes me soft in the pants.

Again, I don't expect it, but that's a dynasty in the making.

THEBOSS84
06-16-08, 01:41 PM
Would anyone laugh if the Rays jumped in and blew everyone away? I know it doesn't seem too likely, but they have the talent to do it. Signing him to an extension is another thing, but a possible rotation of Kazmir, Sabathia, Shields, Price, and Garza makes me soft in the pants.

Again, I don't expect it, but that's a dynasty in the making.

It depends, I wouldn't laugh if you meant just trade for him. I'd laugh if you meant trade for him and sign him to a Johan-like contract. Their payroll is prob in the $30-40M range right now (too lazy to look), there is no way they'll pay ONE PLAYER $18-20M a year.

They have the pieces to get him though with Davis, McGee, Helickson.

R.V.47
06-16-08, 01:42 PM
I can't imagine Hank Steinbrenner allowing the Yankees to miss out on getting Sabathia if Wang is out for the season. He let Cashman do it his way with the Santana trade but Hughes and Kennedy have crapped the bed this season. This could end up being a Steinbrenner deal because he doesn't want to miss out on another ace.

I think the Yankees should definitely make a run at Sabathia (without giving up Cano). The rotation would look like this in 2009:

C.C.
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Moose

With Hughes and Kennedy waiting in the minors.

Im not against a possible rotation that includes CC, Wang, Joba, but both Hughes and IPK will not be waiting in the minors if we deal for CC, one of them is going to Cleveland if a deal is made. Hard to say which one though if any. Kennedy, a control pitcher hasnt shown the ability to throw a strike really at all this year and some GM's might start to think Hughes is injury prone and overrated. Not saying I agree with those assesments but its likely a GM looks at those 2 that way.

I do though agree that Hank will not let another ace slip through his fingers, its just a question of trade now or wait until hes a FA.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 01:44 PM
I can't imagine Hank Steinbrenner allowing the Yankees to miss out on getting Sabathia if Wang is out for the season. He let Cashman do it his way with the Santana trade but Hughes and Kennedy have crapped the bed this season. This could end up being a Steinbrenner deal because he doesn't want to miss out on another ace.

I think the Yankees should definitely make a run at Sabathia (without giving up Cano). The rotation would look like this in 2009:

C.C.
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Moose

With Hughes and Kennedy waiting in the minors.

How so?

Smartin681
06-16-08, 02:12 PM
I can't imagine Hank Steinbrenner allowing the Yankees to miss out on getting Sabathia if Wang is out for the season. He let Cashman do it his way with the Santana trade but Hughes and Kennedy have crapped the bed this season. This could end up being a Steinbrenner deal because he doesn't want to miss out on another ace.

I think the Yankees should definitely make a run at Sabathia (without giving up Cano). The rotation would look like this in 2009:

C.C.
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Moose

With Hughes and Kennedy waiting in the minors.

Im sure Hank's blood pressure is up a couple of notches after watching Wang come up limping yesterday.

A deal for CC would most certainly mean we would have to include Hughes and/or Kennedy. Even if we do make a trade.. theres still plenty of arms in the minors if Pettitte/Mussina do not return next season

Martini6196
06-16-08, 02:19 PM
How so?

My thinking was that Hughes and Kennedy have been so bad this year that the Yankes might actually be able to keep them. Kennedy is a control pitcher who hasn't thrown strikes in the majors and Hughes is starting to look injury prone.

I don't think either of them at this point are good enough to be the centerpiece of a deal to the Indians for Sabathia.

I can see the Indians making Cano the centerpiece.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 02:27 PM
My thinking was that Hughes and Kennedy have been so bad this year that the Yankes might actually be able to keep them. Kennedy is a control pitcher who hasn't thrown strikes in the majors and Hughes is starting to look injury prone.

I don't think either of them at this point are good enough to be the centerpiece of a deal to the Indians for Sabathia.

I can see the Indians making Cano the centerpiece.

you said without giving up Cano. So please tell me how they get CC without trading Cano, Hughes, or Kennedy?

Yankee Tripper
06-16-08, 02:29 PM
you said without giving up Cano. So please tell me how they get CC without trading Cano, Hughes, or Kennedy?
I'm with you shady, I can't really see a scenario where CC comes to the Yanks this year w/o Cano or Hughes being the central piece.

Bleacher_Creature
06-16-08, 02:37 PM
you said without giving up Cano. So please tell me how they get CC without trading Cano, Hughes, or Kennedy?

Free agency?:dunno:

Martini6196
06-16-08, 02:49 PM
you said without giving up Cano. So please tell me how they get CC without trading Cano, Hughes, or Kennedy?

My point was that I don't think any deal will be centered around Hughes or Kennedy because of the crappy years they are having and that I wouldn't give up Cano. Without giving up those three there are still plenty of prospects/players that the Yankees could include in a trade for Sabathia.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 02:52 PM
Free agency?:dunno:

From your lips to Gods ears. Im just saying hypothetically if they traded for him.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 02:53 PM
My point was that I don't think any deal will be centered around Hughes or Kennedy because of the crappy years they are having and that I wouldn't give up Cano. Without giving up those three there are still plenty of prospects/players that the Yankees could include in a trade for Sabathia.

Dont get me wrong I would love for that to happen... it is probably not possible.

Bleacher_Creature
06-16-08, 02:54 PM
From your lips to Gods ears. Im just saying hypothetically if they traded for him.

Trading? I'd be shocked if we got him w/o giving up those guys.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 02:56 PM
Trading? I'd be shocked if we got him w/o giving up those guys.

yep i agree

Martini6196
06-16-08, 03:01 PM
Trading? I'd be shocked if we got him w/o giving up those guys.

Okay well would this work?

Tabata, Horne, JB Cox, McCutchen

Again, I'm not saying I want this to happen I'm just saying I believe the Yankees can still get Sabathia without having to give up Hughes, IPK or Cano. The Yankees farm system is loaded right now so there are plenty of options.

sjb23
06-16-08, 03:02 PM
ok- it was just announced that Wang is out for 10 weeks....maybe he comes back in late Sept, maybe not...

do they give up Cano in order to get Sabathia, and does Alberto Gonzalez take over at 2nd?

Cano,Kennedy,and Marquez, and they have to sign Sabathia for the trade to go through?

I think they can afford to lose Cano's offense (although I hate to lose him), and Gonzalez is comparable defensively.

Is it worth it? :dunno:

Martini6196
06-16-08, 03:03 PM
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/ (http://yankees.lhblogs.com/)

This from the Yankees:

INJURY UPDATE ON RHP CHIEN-MING WANG

RHP Chien-Ming Wang was examined today at New York Presbyterian Hospital Columbia Medical Center by Yankees Team Physician, Dr. Stuart Hershon and Dr. Jason Greisberg, Foot and Ankle Specialist.

Imaging studies revealed a mid-foot sprain of the Lisfranc ligament of the right foot and a partial tear of the peroneal longus tendon of the right foot.

Wang will be on crutches and wear a protective boot for a minimum of six weeks.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 03:09 PM
ok- it was just announced that Wang is out for 10 weeks....maybe he comes back in late Sept, maybe not...

do they give up Cano in order to get Sabathia, and does Alberto Gonzalez take over at 2nd?

Cano,Kennedy,and Marquez, and they have to sign Sabathia for the trade to go through?

I think they can afford to lose Cano's offense (although I hate to lose him), and Gonzalez is comparable defensively.

Is it worth it? :dunno:

This team is loaded with old hitters and young pitching prospects. Cano is our only good young hitter. Trading him would be stupidity.

YankeePride1967
06-16-08, 03:14 PM
All because Cano is struggling at the plate? :mad:

I want C.C., but I wouldn't trade Cano for him. I'd give them Kennedy, Hawkins and a few other prospects for C.C.

GET IT DONE CASH!

This would never happen even before Wang went down.

mrbawm
06-16-08, 03:16 PM
This team is loaded with old hitters and young pitching prospects. Cano is our only good young hitter. Trading him would be stupidity.

No kidding, I can't believe this is seriously being discussed. Let's give up Cano at his absolute lowest value for a pitcher who may be obtainable as a free agent this offseason.

Getting Sabathia at this point is a recipe for disaster. We're going to get screwed in a deal with Wang out a minimum of 6 weeks. We haven't shown enough to do any major damage in the postseason this year anyway. I highly doubt it's worth giving up major major value (which is what it will take to pry C.C. from the Indians) so that we can possibly sneak into the playoffs and have a high probablity of getting knocked out in the first round anyway.