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The Q Bomb
04-26-08, 10:36 PM
It seems I say this every year for the last 3 or 4 seasons - but I'll say it again. It's not only that this team losses games - it's the way they lose them - like they barely compete sometimes. I know everyone will say, it's a long season; they've had bad weather (as if they are a team in a bubble and the only ones subject to weather); they are an older team that takes a while to get going; they have a lot of young players who will take a while to get acclimated.

All I know is, when you get the first two runners of an inning on base and don't even move them up a base no less score a run; when you come in to relieve and walk the first batter on four pitches; when you give up the first run of the game by walking in a run; when you can't execute a pitch and give up a homerun to Manny Ramirez in a crucial with an open base sitting there; you look like you can't compete in major league baseball.

Sure these things happen from time to time with every team, but with The Yankees it seems to be their modus operandi.

So far this year all the above things have happened, most of them this week. Our youngsters seem to fullfill the worse case scenario more often than not. Our "veterans" either can't execute or get injured by performing extraordinary feats like running, batting, fielding. Just now, someone will injure their diaphram by breathing.

I keep hearing criticisms of Girardi's moves, but the poor guy is hamstrung. His players aren't executing. The only players who have done their jobs this year are Abreu, Matsui, Melky, Joba, Rivera - that's 5 out of 25 players, exactly 20%.

Getting back to competing, if you're going to lose, at least throw the ball over the plate; at least take the bat off your shoulder and try to drive the ball. If you're going to lose at least advance the runners once in a game; at least attempt to throw out a runner. At least compete! The damn games aren't even enjoyable when we win - it seems more like we avoid losing.

I'm sure, or I hope, that like seasons past, by July and August, I'll see a completely different team and they'll be scratching and clawing in every game to win and make the playoffs - but right now, this team looks like it's spring training or pre-game practice. They look totally inept!

27IsNext
04-26-08, 10:40 PM
The offense is hot and cold, three of our five pitchers are question marks to go more than five innings, and our bullpen is poorly-constructed. How well we "compete" has little to do with it.

NYYDragoon
04-26-08, 10:40 PM
Q, I completely agree. But this year more than ever do love the fact that the season is 162 games long. We shouldn't pass complete judgment yet, but the way they're playing now is incredibly frustrating.

flymick24
04-26-08, 10:41 PM
this team just has had a cloud of lethargy hanging over their heads since 2004

The Q Bomb
04-26-08, 10:43 PM
this team just has had a cloud of lethargy hanging over their heads since 2004 "...cloud of lethargy..." what an apt description of what I'm talking about. Except for that five game sweep against Boston in August 2006 - that about sums up the last four years.

Joba's Rings
04-26-08, 10:45 PM
I can tell by the look in their eyes. We're doomed.

Mark19
04-26-08, 10:46 PM
They played some horrendous baseball today. Ian just isn't psychologically ready to compete at the highest level. I feel for the kid but if you won't throw strikes, there is no reason to keep you in the rotation.

The game was not out of hand because of Ian. The offense had so many opportunities but got themselves out. No one can bunt and no one can do anything except swing for the fences. A-Rod had 2 on, 1 out and Victor Martinez flailing his arms for Jensen to throw one in the dirt, a ball goes in the dirt and A-Rod swings right over the top.
This team is such a bad match for its city. It would be one thing if they weren't talented enough, not being focused enough is simply inexcusable.

Sam18
04-26-08, 10:47 PM
Q Bomb and mycroft need to get a talk show asap.

The Q Bomb
04-26-08, 10:48 PM
They played some horrendous baseball today. Ian just isn't psychologically ready to compete at the highest level. I feel for the kid but if you won't throw strikes, there is no reason to keep you in the rotation.

The game was not out of hand because of Ian. The offense had so many opportunities but got themselves out. No one can bunt and no one can do anything except swing for the fences. A-Rod had 2 on, 1 out and Victor Martinez flailing his arms for Jensen to throw one in the dirt, a ball goes in the dirt and A-Rod swings right over the top.
This team is such a bad match for its city. It would be one thing if they weren't talented enough, not being focused enough is simply inexcusable. That's another good point, or good description, "not focused". The problem is, lack of focus or lethargy are hard things to fix. It's much easier to fix a flawed swing or delivery.

-tz
04-26-08, 10:49 PM
this team just has had a cloud of lethargy hanging over their heads since 2004How many people from 2004 are still even on the team? Jeter, Posada, Mo, Giambi, Matsui, Mussina, A-Rod ... anyone else?

That's seven out of twenty-five. Can't blame it on a continuous cloud of lethargy lasting four straight years.

Joba's Rings
04-26-08, 10:53 PM
They simply don't care. Can't you tell just by looking at them? I can.

-tz
04-26-08, 10:54 PM
They simply don't care. Can't you tell just by looking at them? I can.You must have X-ray eyes or something. :P

27IsNext
04-26-08, 10:56 PM
Wow, seriously?

The Q Bomb
04-26-08, 10:56 PM
...Can't blame it on a continuous cloud of lethargy lasting four straight years. Yes, you can. flymick didn't say anything about specific players causing the lethargy - just that it exists. It could be a result of poorly constructed teams; lack of chemistry; having to overcome too many injuries or too many controversies - but whatever the reason it's obvious this team has not performed up to the level of it's talent - or anywhere near that level - for a few seasons now.

Rocketbooster
04-26-08, 10:59 PM
well, I don't agree with your premise that they aren't competing, so my answer is "no" to your question.

What you're describing is a lack of execution; that is a completely different thing than not competing. I don't think the Yankees are guilty at all of not caring; maybe they aren't smart on the basepaths all the time or possibly aggressive enough and maybe they have bad at bats, but this team is trying. It's always going to look bad when your offense is slumbering, but as frustrated as I am, I will never, ever accuse my team of not caring.

Additionally, I think you're pretty brutal on the kids. They "seem to fulfill the worst case scenario"? Hughes is 21 and Kennedy is 23. Hughes was rushed last year and injured and he's had his struggles to be sure, but he's got all the talent in the world and great makeup to boot. How is he considered not to be competing? When does struggling, esp. as a young pitcher in a notoriously tough town to begin with, equate to not-competing? As for Ian, even if he is pitching scared, it doesn't mean he's not trying; it means he's young and inexperienced and human.

The players are to blame for getting injured now? I don't have anything else to add to that other than to say that is patently unfair.

I get your frustration, but that's all I can give you.

Joba's Rings
04-26-08, 11:00 PM
You must have X-ray eyes or something. :P I wish.

But seriously, what is this garbage about "forgetting how to compete"? The Yankees haven't played great baseball lately. Period.

If you buy into the premise of this thread, it looks like the Red Sox have mysteriously forgotten how to win too, seeing as they've lost 4 in a row. The roster is pretty much the same team that won the WS last year, but somewhere along the line they got lethargic. Or the team chemistry got all messed up. Or something. :lol:

Retire21
04-26-08, 11:01 PM
It seems I say this every year for the last 3 or 4 seasons - but I'll say it again. It's not only that this team losses games - it's the way they lose them - like they barely compete sometimes. I know everyone will say, it's a long season; they've had bad weather (as if they are a team in a bubble and the only ones subject to weather); they are an older team that takes a while to get going; they have a lot of young players who will take a while to get acclimated.

All I know is, when you get the first two runners of an inning on base and don't even move them up a base no less score a run; when you come in to relieve and walk the first batter on four pitches; when you give up the first run of the game by walking in a run; when you can't execute a pitch and give up a homerun to Manny Ramirez in a crucial with an open base sitting there; you look like you can't compete in major league baseball.

Sure these things happen from time to time with every team, but with The Yankees it seems to be their modus operandi.

So far this year all the above things have happened, most of them this week. Our youngsters seem to fullfill the worse case scenario more often than not. Our "veterans" either can't execute or get injured by performing extraordinary feats like running, batting, fielding. Just now, someone will injure their diaphram by breathing.

I keep hearing criticisms of Girardi's moves, but the poor guy is hamstrung. His players aren't executing. The only players who have done their jobs this year are Abreu, Matsui, Melky, Joba, Rivera - that's 5 out of 25 players, exactly 20%.

Getting back to competing, if you're going to lose, at least throw the ball over the plate; at least take the bat off your shoulder and try to drive the ball. If you're going to lose at least advance the runners once in a game; at least attempt to throw out a runner. At least compete! The damn games aren't even enjoyable when we win - it seems more like we avoid losing.

I'm sure, or I hope, that like seasons past, by July and August, I'll see a completely different team and they'll be scratching and clawing in every game to win and make the playoffs - but right now, this team looks like it's spring training or pre-game practice. They look totally inept!

Couldn't agree more, Q- well said. We have given away the last 3 games because our pitchers can't throw strike one, and end up falling behind in counts, eventually getting burned.

Even so, I still feel better about this team now than I did about last season's team. I remember wondering aloud to my wife in late July if they were going to make it. I think some of the young kids are going to get a chance in the BP- and they will probably stick if they can throw strikes. I don't think Girardi minds giving up hits if the pitchers are locating well- our staff walks too many guys. That 0-2 pitch Farnsworth got whoever it was to strike out on to end the 8th was a hanging curveball. Here I thought Farnsworth would try to get him to chase and instead he gets lucky and hangs a curve that the guy swung through. Mercy.

wang+cano=future
04-26-08, 11:02 PM
I keep hearing criticisms of Girardi's moves, but the poor guy is hamstrung. His players aren't executing. The only players who have done their jobs this year are Abreu, Matsui, Melky, Joba, Rivera - that's 5 out of 25 players, exactly 20%.

I think it is unfair not to include Jeter, Pettitte, Wang, Molina, and Posada. I think Wang and Pettitte have pitched pretty well so far this year, and to discount the contributions of Posada, Molina and Jeter due to injuries is not fair to them. I don't think Moose has been that bad so far this year either....

The holes on this team have been the pen minus Mo and Joba, the lack of production from Cano and Giambi, the inconsistencies of Damon and Arod and the poor starts of Hughes and Kennedy.



Plus it is APRIL.

Retire21
04-26-08, 11:04 PM
How many people from 2004 are still even on the team? Jeter, Posada, Mo, Giambi, Matsui, Mussina, A-Rod ... anyone else?

That's seven out of twenty-five. Can't blame it on a continuous cloud of lethargy lasting four straight years.

Agreed to an extent; your leaders and incumbents set the tone for the new guys and clearly there seems to be some kind of malaise that infects this team. I used to think it was Joe Torre and his laid-back ways- now I'm not so sure.

mrmike98
04-26-08, 11:04 PM
I'm suprised our "fiery" manager has stood for this. I equally surprised that this kind of play remains as residue from our former manager.

Wins are down but sarcasm is up.

Vinny
04-26-08, 11:08 PM
Girardi needs to pull a Leyland.

DiMaggio5CF
04-26-08, 11:08 PM
The only thing that worries me about this year is the prospect of making up ground in the second half. In previous years, the team dug itself out of holes late in the season.

But this year, the team has a lot of young pitchers, and young pitchers are subject to wearing down at the end of the season as they go beyond the number of innings that they've pitched in any single year prior.

The team is off to a slow start, and I can see them making up ground in July and August but then fading in September and missing the postseason.

Joba's Rings
04-26-08, 11:09 PM
Girardi needs to pull a Leyland.
Start smoking?

The Q Bomb
04-26-08, 11:09 PM
Rocketbooster, please don't misinterpret my frustration and my "rant"! I never think The Yankees "don't care" and have posted many responses and made several threads castigating people for saying The Yankees are complacent, or too well paid to play hard, or things of that nature. That is not what I mean when I say they can't compete. I mean exactly what you said - they don't execute. You have to execute to compete. All players and all teams don't execute at times but not with the regularity of Yankee players.

As far as being harsh on the "kids" I didn't mean they fullfill the worse case scenario in terms of their "careers" or "seasons" so far but in terms of what they've done in individual ball games and situations so far. When the bases are loaded, they issue a walk. When we need a long outing - they go 3 innings. When they need a strikeout; they give up a hit. You can't deny that's been the way they've performed more often than not so far this young season.

Add that to situations like sending up a pinch hitter who takes a called third strike (on 4 or 5 pitches!) with the bases loaded; or a pitcher giving up a homerun on the very next pitch after a visit from the manager; or getting 12 hits and scoring only 3 runs - and it's not executing - not competing.

27IsNext
04-26-08, 11:09 PM
Yes, you can. flymick didn't say anything about specific players causing the lethargy - just that it exists. It could be a result of poorly constructed teams; lack of chemistry; having to overcome too many injuries or too many controversies - but whatever the reason it's obvious this team has not performed up to the level of it's talent - or anywhere near that level - for a few seasons now.

The offense has played tight since '04, but our starting pitching hasn't been anything to write home about since the '03 season, so you could definitely say they're performing down to their lack of talent (in the rotation).

B.A.
04-26-08, 11:10 PM
I wouldn't say they have forgotten how to compete. This is just going to be a growing pains type of season. New manager, rooks in the rotation, streaky offense that was supposed to be the staple, subpar middle relief. I'm not saying they are DOOOMED by any means, but expecting this team to dominate out of the gates was probably a little bit optimistic.

philleotardo
04-26-08, 11:10 PM
Girardi needs to pull a Leyland.No one on this team would respond to that.

hellonewman
04-26-08, 11:12 PM
Start smoking?:lol::lol:

No, quit early in his first season (Like Leyland in Colorado).

yabigyank
04-26-08, 11:17 PM
Right now, the Yankees are like one big Mike Mussina - there has to be optimal conditions in order for things to work out.

Ok, that's a stretch. I share the same frustrations but I support Girardi and I do think that Hughes and Kennedy will be competitive and do their share.

But, yeah, they need some fire. I've been watching the Red Sox/Tampa series and Tampa has some mojo happening right now. Great defense yesterday and a big hit today.

I know that I'll get slammed for this but I don't see the same fire, energy, and passion from the Yankees thus far.

jimmykey2
04-26-08, 11:18 PM
Gosh... people are getting silly already?

bigwampum
04-26-08, 11:19 PM
If we can get out of April over .500, I call it a win.

R.V.47
04-26-08, 11:23 PM
This team has been extremely frustrating so far this year. The fact that we have hovered around 500 all year is very telling because it really sums up how the team has played. No consistent starting pitching and a shakey bullpen plus a lineup with great hitters that arent able to execute basic fundamentals to score runs like moving runners over and getting guys in from 3rd with less than 2 outs. Its a roster filled with talented players with extraordinary talent and ability that sometimes shows up. When that talent does show up the yankees win easily, when it doesnt they cant win because they dont execute fundamentals at all.

Rocketbooster
04-26-08, 11:27 PM
Rocketbooster, please don't misinterpret my frustration and my "rant"! I never think The Yankees "don't care" and have posted many responses and made several threads castigating people for saying The Yankees are complacent, or too well paid to play hard, or things of that nature. That is not what I mean when I say they can't compete. I mean exactly what you said - they don't execute. You have to execute to compete. All players and all teams don't execute at times but not with the regularity of Yankee players.

It's true, I do know that you have been bothered by accusations of the Yankees not caring. Still, IMO, when someone uses the term "not competing" in relation to an athlete, it means that they aren't caring enough or putting in the effort. If you (meaning anyone in general) wants to say they aren't executing, then say they aren't executing. Maybe it's semantics, but "not competing" just means something different to me. As to your comment about the Yankees not execution more than most other teams, I can't agree with that. There were 8 teams that made the playoffs last year, including the Yankees. Therefore, every other team executed poorly more often than the Yankees did. There are teams with worse records than the Yanks have now, so they are not executing as well as the Yankees. The Sox are only two games ahead in the loss column and they apparently blew a late inning lead tonight. That's not executing and they have lost 4 in a row. In the end, I completely understand your frustration. I am dealing with it by trying not to take every loss so personally - and trying to put some emotional distance between the myself and the game. It's better than giving myself ulcers.

As far as being harsh on the "kids" I didn't mean they fullfill the worse case scenario in terms of their "careers" or "seasons" so far but in terms of what they've done in individual ball games and situations so far. When the bases are loaded, they issue a walk. When we need a long outing - they go 3 innings. When they need a strikeout; they give up a hit. You can't deny that's been the way they've performed more often than not so far this young season.

I just think you can't judge the kids at all this early in the season, not the way that you describe above. You're still talking about green kids - how can they be expected to carry the burden in the sense that they are expected to compensate for the previous night's pitcher's poor performance? They're kids - and they are struggling, period. It happens and we have to deal with it. I think you're expecting them to pitch like veterans (when we need a K, they give up a hit ) and IMO, that's unfair. Now, I think Kennedy needs to go down and work on his confidence. He settled down and that's great, but the fact is, everyone is noticing his bad, scared body language. Phil has far superior stuff and is in the process of righting himself. However, we still have to be patient. It will be worth the wait for him.

Add that to situations like sending up a pinch hitter who takes a called third strike (on 4 or 5 pitches!) with the bases loaded; or a pitcher giving up a homerun on the very next pitch after a visit from the manager; or getting 12 hits and scoring only 3 runs - and it's not executing - not competing.

again, not executing is not the same as "not competing". For athletes, "not competing" is a psychological term basically used to describe someone who has given up. It's a terribly negative term, far worse than saying someone is not execucting.

teknetic
04-26-08, 11:28 PM
Gosh... people are getting silly already?

Do you expect people not to? this team is underachieving by quite a bit. It's been the trend for the last few years, they'll get off to a slow start, mash their way into the playoffs, and revert back to their early season form. Essentially, being one giant tease. Hell, the word "tease" describes this team pretty well.

The most frustrating aspect about this team has been the offense. You can't blow it up because there's way too much talent (Jeter, Abreu, ARod, Cano, Melky; Matsui/Damon/Giambi will give you decent numbers also) So you basically hope they figure it out and play up to their capabilities.

Rocketbooster
04-26-08, 11:28 PM
Oops, sorry my post is so hard to read; my responses are in bold

Rocketbooster
04-26-08, 11:37 PM
Do you expect people not to? this team is underachieving by quite a bit. It's been the trend for the last few years, they'll get off to a slow start, mash their way into the playoffs, and revert back to their early season form. Essentially, being one giant tease. Hell, the word "tease" describes this team pretty well.


If we believe (which I do not) that there is some vague malaise hovering around this team since 2004 (I didn't believe in the curse of Babe Ruth and I don't believe in 4 year old hangovers....or even 1 or 2 year hangovers/malaise/whatever), then why are we excited about having two top notch potential aces and plenty more promising reinforcements in the farm (not to mention very good position player prospects in the lower minors) when they are just going to be infected with the non-competitive gene?

bigwampum
04-26-08, 11:43 PM
Jesus, has nobody here ever just plain sucked at something for a while? That's all that's going on here. It's not that they're not trying, or that there's a black rain cloud hovering over the team bus, or anything like that.

DJ27
04-26-08, 11:50 PM
Jesus, has nobody here ever just plain sucked at something for a while? That's all that's going on here. It's not that they're not trying, or that there's a black rain cloud hovering over the team bus, or anything like that.

Good point. But again, we are Yankee fans! ;)

It is hard for me to say but...... this is a rebuilding year and I can't see us making the playoffs. It will be OK in the long run though!!!

apalradio
04-26-08, 11:56 PM
Good point. But again, we are Yankee fans! ;)

It is hard for me to say but...... this is a rebuilding year and I can't see us making the playoffs. It will be OK in the long run though!!!It's always ok in the long run. The problem is that in the short run, this team is still expected to at least compete. Of course our kids are going to struggle, but I don't think most people expected that kids with this kind of pedigree would struggle this much this early. Furthermore, this is an offense that is expected to mash, not turn to mush like they have.

-tz
04-27-08, 12:04 AM
Girardi needs to pull a Leyland.Or even better, as reported by The Onion ...

Jim Leyland To Tigers: 'Do I Have To Get Naked And Yell Some Sense Into You?' (http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/jim_leyland_to_tigers_do_i) :lol:

Rich
04-27-08, 12:05 AM
They may need a bat, but idea that they have forgotten how to compete is ridiculous (no disrespect intended to the thread starter).

NYIndian2005
04-27-08, 12:54 AM
Didn't we start 2006 11-19? Weren't we pretty bad last year too? But I do agree that this offense is just leaving too many runners on base, and what is worrying is the inconsistency of our rotation but, this time around with no injuries.

bomber999
04-27-08, 01:15 AM
I don't think that they have forgotten how to compete. They are just playing very mediocre and inconsistent baseball this season. My take:

They have a lineup of aging veterans, many of whom appear to be streaky hitters, and some of whom appear to be on the downside of their career. This is a lineup that has the potential on any given day to mash, or to be completely shut down. They have shown a disturbing penchant to be handily neutralized by good pitching. They also tend to get extremely tight in clutch spots. They appear inept at manufacturing runs, e.g. by moving runners up, making productive outs. How many times do the Yankees put men on with zero or one out, and not only fail to score, but fail even to move the runners into scoring position?

Cano, BTW, is a special case. He looks absolutely lost at the plate, and is killing this team right now.

The starting pitching is a mixed bag. Wang and Pettitte have been solid, and Mussina better than expected (but still a good bet to be brutalized by a good offensive team). However, neither Wang nor Pettitte appears better, routinely, than the opposition's top starters, and "solid" often isn't good enough, particularly with a streaky offense. The kids, obviously, are struggling mightily. I would love to chalk it up to their inexperience- some of it can be- but I must admit, I thought that they would be more competitive than they have been thus far. There are other young pitchers in MLB who appear more polished than our youngsters, and have had more success. If this were an ideal world, a full season in AAA would likely benefit Phil Hughes very much. On the plus side, Kennedy showed some moxie today by stopping the bleeding after a very poor 2nd inning. I think that Cashman made a fundamental error in treating the kids like rotation stalwarts (before any pitches were thrown this season), instead of young, raw, pitchers who have great potential but need further development to be able to pitch on the major league level. There is simply too much pressure on and too high expectations for Phil and IPK.

The back end of the bullpen is one of the best in baseball. The middle relief is poor, and stands to be worse now with Bruney likely done for the season.

The bench has actually been a nice surprise. They are doing all they can. It's too bad that the regulars have been injured and/or underperforming.

The bottom line is that for this team to win, they need to mash offensively on a consistent basis, which they appear unable to do. Their inconsistent pitching, I think, has something to do with their offensive woes- players tend to press if they do not have confidence in their pitching. I actually think that this has been a problem since the Boston series in '04.

A team with so many holes and inconsistencies tends to win as much as they lose. Last time I checked, the Yankees were basically a .500 team.

Sorry for the long post.

boday
04-27-08, 01:16 AM
Okay nineth inning today, Damon on third, one out. Jeter hits the ball hard, it ricochets of the pitcher's mound right to the second baseman. DP. Hard to compete. Chicago - Hughes very good for two innings, rain delay. 7 innings of bullpen. Three pitchers get hurt. Hard to compete. Next day Pettite manages to go only five innings. Hard to compete. And so on and so on. I could go on for a page. On the other hand, Damon had a very good day, A Rod had two hits batting on one leg. AG had a miracle double play, IPK is slowly looking better, Albaladejo looked pretty good. I watched the whole game (I yelled a lot, but I didn't leave) It was frustrating but entertaining.

JDPNYY
04-27-08, 01:40 AM
The water beneath the bridge is so full of people that those jumping now will not get wet.

boday
04-27-08, 01:48 AM
The water beneath the bridge is so full of people that those jumping now will not get wet.

See, things are looking up already. Actually, if we can get by Detroit, I think we'll be in good shape. The kids look to be over the hump. Hughes had 23 pitches in 2 innings. Damon is on a tear. Now Cano - que pasa?

frostdude1
04-27-08, 02:21 AM
I can tell by the look in their eyes. We're doomed.

Especially Arod. He's gonna strike out for sure

smr15
04-27-08, 08:33 AM
What strikes me about this team thus far is what I perceive as a lack of fire, or joy for the game.
They all just look kind of "blah", like they're putting in their 8 hours at the H&R Block at the local strip mall.

I see no emotion.

That bothers me a bit.

(.... it couldn't be fatigue this early in the season, could it? It shouldn't be.)

yankeeman61
04-27-08, 08:41 AM
Q - I am often on the same page with you and I completely understand where you are coming from. But I don't think it's a matter of competing. IMO there seems to be varying degrees of tightness and complacency at times if that makes any sense. I see the tightness against the better teams like Cleveland and complacency against weaker teams like the series in Baltimore where it seems like the team is sleepwalking and everyone waiting around for one of the many stars on the team to do something.

But I think it's closer to the truth to say the organization has forgotten how to construct a balanced championship caliber team. I don't want to write a book in this response to explain every detail to back this up as to why there hasn't been a WS title since 2000 so I'll just touch on a few points.

I think your read on how the team doesn't seem to compete is close. These days the Yankees don't seem to have enough ultra competitors on the team. In other words, not enough "a-holes" in the clubhouse, and I mean that in a good way. There's not an O'Neill, not a Wells, not a Clemens (before he just became a part-timer), or even lesser talented jackasses like Leyritz or Chad Curtis. The Yankees have a lot of talented, well spoken and intelligent nice guys on the team. The dynasty teams would be the aggressors instead of the hunted like theyseem to be now. There is also some dead weight (Giambi, Farnsworth, Betemit, Traber to name a few) players in varying degrees of decline (Mussina, Damon, Matsui, Posada) some inexperience and gaps in certain areas (pitching).

I see the type of toughness you want in guys like Joba and even a lesser talent like Duncan. The Yankees have a $200 Million team but they are still paying for years of inadvisable spending and bad trades. They are trying to do the right things now but they are truly a team in transition and unless a few helpful changes are made during the season, they are going to have a very tough time even getting to the post season, let alone getting deep into it.

OhioYankee
04-27-08, 08:44 AM
I was always ready for this year to be an up-and-down year. We made the decision to go with young pitchers and we are going to take our lumps that result in losses. If we stay the course and stick with youth we have to have some growing pains. I cannot blame the starting pitching because this was expected in my thoughts. Maybe the hitters at times do not show emotion or life but the Paul O'Neils, Scott Brosius's, Tino Martinez and Bernie Williams are no longer with us. These guys played with heart. We have some guys with heart on this team but maybe not as many as our glory years. We need time and patience to see this period through.

wardsp
04-27-08, 08:48 AM
I have to say there is something to this idea, but I'm not sure where the lack of competitiveness comes from. I mean the players all say the right things, but yet they kind of seem happy whether they win or lose. It's very rare to see a Yankee player visibly upset after a tought loss. Most just kind of follow the old Torre cliches...we're scuffling, they pitched a helluva game, etc.

One thing that bothers me is how much more intense our young players seem to be than our vets. I mean sometimes these young kids look like would rip their own heads off to win a game (Duncan as a great example). Yet, the vets on our team just seem to hope someone will eventually get a hit.

blumj
04-27-08, 08:55 AM
I have to say there is something to this idea, but I'm not sure where the lack of competitiveness comes from. I mean the players all say the right things, but yet they kind of seem happy whether they win or lose. It's very rare to see a Yankee player visibly upset after a tought loss. Most just kind of follow the old Torre cliches...we're scuffling, they pitched a helluva game, etc.

One thing that bothers me is how much more intense our young players seem to be than our vets. I mean sometimes these young kids look like would rip their own heads off to win a game (Duncan as a great example). Yet, the vets on our team just seem to hope someone will eventually get a hit.
But that's just normal. The longer you've been around, the more you've experienced and the more you learn to have perspective, don't get too high or too low. Young people are more likely to get emotional. That's why it's good to have a mix.

yankeeman61
04-27-08, 08:57 AM
If we can get out of April over .500, I call it a win.

Pretty sad to have this level of satisfaction from the Yankees, isn't it?

JDPNYY
04-27-08, 09:02 AM
Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Yankees have forgotten how to win. They stand an insurmountable 2.5 games out of first place with just 137 games to play (plus or minus, after games that just may never be made up). What's the magic number?

The beutifully assembled Orioles are running away with the division. Some of you mocked the great Angelos, but his 10 year plan is bearing fruit. The Red Sox have lost 4 in a row. Stick a fork in them. They may not win again if Curt (as tough as dirt) does not get back on his feet soon. The Jays, who were to give the Yanks and Sox all kind of troubles should begin the rebuilding process today. Why wait.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Indians have won 5 straight. They have awoken, and they haven't even had to break out the bugs as yet. If they can continue this walk off streak - I see them putting up a serious challenge to the Ozzie-led Pale Hose Machine. Everyone's pick in the preseason articles - The Mighty Detroit Tigers have been a complete bust. They sit in the Central Basement. Three (yes, three) full games out. They need a Steve Phillips in their front office. There's no hope for this year, but he could help them get on track for future seasons.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Marlins, finally (thankfully) completely over the Girardi era, are poised to make yet another World Series run. They play lights out baseball. The Mets are not quite done, but Willie's Team is fading in the rear view mirror, they stand 5-5 over their last 10 games. You don't get to the last month of the season in first place with play like that.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Perhaps the biggest surprise of all is the gutty gritty Juan Pierre-led Tories. Done. At 6 games out it's looking like Joe's new era can already be deemed a bust.

Will the Padres ever score a run?



Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Despite the disappointment, I think we can all agree that this season was fun. I'm sorry to see it end.

yankeeman61
04-27-08, 09:07 AM
Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Yankees have forgotten how to win. They stand an insurmountable 2.5 games out of first place with just 137 games to play (plus or minus, after games that just may never be made up). What's the magic number?

The beutifully assembled Orioles are running away with the division. Some of you mocked the great Angelos, but his 10 year plan is bearing fruit. The Red Sox have lost 4 in a row. Stick a fork in them. They may not win again if Curt (as tough as dirt) does not get back on his feet soon. The Jays, who were to give the Yanks and Sox all kind of troubles should begin the rebuilding process today. Why wait.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Indians have won 5 straight. They have awoken, and they haven't even had to break out the bugs as yet. If they can continue this walk off streak - I see them putting up a serious challenge to the Ozzie-led Pale Hose Machine. Everyone's pick in the preseason articles - The Mighty Detroit Tigers have been a complete bust. They sit in the Central Basement. Three (yes, three) full games out. They need a Steve Phillips in their front office. There's no hope for this year, but he could help them get on track for future seasons.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Marlins, finally (thankfully) completely over the Girardi era, are poised to make yet another World Series run. They play lights out baseball. The Mets are not quite done, but Willie's Team is fading in the rear view mirror, they stand 5-5 over their last 10 games. You don't get to the last month of the season in first place with play like that.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Perhaps the biggest surprise of all is the gutty gritty Juan Pierre-led Tories. Done. At 6 games out it's looking like Joe's new era can already be deemed a bust.

Will the Padres ever score a run?



Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Despite the disappointment, I think we can all agree that this season was fun. I'm sorry to see it end.

John, I like your humor. I don't think anyone is calling it a "season". It's just that there seems to be a lot of indicators that this season is headed in the same direction and people are frustrated with that prospect and no one wants to hear it's early anymore. It's been 7 years and the fans seem hungrier to win than the organization. We're all there through thick and thin and we'll be there all season, no matter how frustrating it is to watch this team.

NYSITH
04-27-08, 09:08 AM
It seems I say this every year for the last 3 or 4 seasons - but I'll say it again. It's not only that this team losses games - it's the way they lose them - like they barely compete sometimes. I know everyone will say, it's a long season; they've had bad weather (as if they are a team in a bubble and the only ones subject to weather); they are an older team that takes a while to get going; they have a lot of young players who will take a while to get acclimated.

All I know is, when you get the first two runners of an inning on base and don't even move them up a base no less score a run; when you come in to relieve and walk the first batter on four pitches; when you give up the first run of the game by walking in a run; when you can't execute a pitch and give up a homerun to Manny Ramirez in a crucial with an open base sitting there; you look like you can't compete in major league baseball.

Sure these things happen from time to time with every team, but with The Yankees it seems to be their modus operandi.

So far this year all the above things have happened, most of them this week. Our youngsters seem to fullfill the worse case scenario more often than not. Our "veterans" either can't execute or get injured by performing extraordinary feats like running, batting, fielding. Just now, someone will injure their diaphram by breathing.

I keep hearing criticisms of Girardi's moves, but the poor guy is hamstrung. His players aren't executing. The only players who have done their jobs this year are Abreu, Matsui, Melky, Joba, Rivera - that's 5 out of 25 players, exactly 20%.

Getting back to competing, if you're going to lose, at least throw the ball over the plate; at least take the bat off your shoulder and try to drive the ball. If you're going to lose at least advance the runners once in a game; at least attempt to throw out a runner. At least compete! The damn games aren't even enjoyable when we win - it seems more like we avoid losing.

I'm sure, or I hope, that like seasons past, by July and August, I'll see a completely different team and they'll be scratching and clawing in every game to win and make the playoffs - but right now, this team looks like it's spring training or pre-game practice. They look totally inept!

I agree with most of the points you bring up except for the fact that Girardi is hamstrung. Ok, in some ways he has to live with the roster he was given and the non flexibility in some areas. But, he did not have start Oldendorf in the ninth inning of a tie game with the heart of the Indians order coming up after he threw like 40 pitches on Thursday. He also could have walked Manny with first base open during the Sox game. I think Girardi is a good manager and will get better as the season moves along, but so far, I think his bullpen management is a little shaky.

Tabata
04-27-08, 09:10 AM
Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Yankees have forgotten how to win. They stand an insurmountable 2.5 games out of first place with just 137 games to play (plus or minus, after games that just may never be made up). What's the magic number?

The beutifully assembled Orioles are running away with the division. Some of you mocked the great Angelos, but his 10 year plan is bearing fruit. The Red Sox have lost 4 in a row. Stick a fork in them. They may not win again if Curt (as tough as dirt) does not get back on his feet soon. The Jays, who were to give the Yanks and Sox all kind of troubles should begin the rebuilding process today. Why wait.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Indians have won 5 straight. They have awoken, and they haven't even had to break out the bugs as yet. If they can continue this walk off streak - I see them putting up a serious challenge to the Ozzie-led Pale Hose Machine. Everyone's pick in the preseason articles - The Mighty Detroit Tigers have been a complete bust. They sit in the Central Basement. Three (yes, three) full games out. They need a Steve Phillips in their front office. There's no hope for this year, but he could help them get on track for future seasons.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Marlins, finally (thankfully) completely over the Girardi era, are poised to make yet another World Series run. They play lights out baseball. The Mets are not quite done, but Willie's Team is fading in the rear view mirror, they stand 5-5 over their last 10 games. You don't get to the last month of the season in first place with play like that.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Perhaps the biggest surprise of all is the gutty gritty Juan Pierre-led Tories. Done. At 6 games out it's looking like Joe's new era can already be deemed a bust.

Will the Padres ever score a run?



Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Despite the disappointment, I think we can all agree that this season was fun. I'm sorry to see it end.
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6685/axxlwzucj3zfh15qsuf2.gif

wardsp
04-27-08, 09:42 AM
But that's just normal. The longer you've been around, the more you've experienced and the more you learn to have perspective, don't get too high or too low. Young people are more likely to get emotional. That's why it's good to have a mix.

I agree, completely normal. The thing you would hope for though is that this "good" mix would result in winning. As it stands, the formula doesn't seem to be working all that great, especially in the playoffs.

I think one of the great things about Torre was his calmness, but it was also simultaneously a weakness, as it led to a kind of complacent "looking" team. Sure they may have fire in their bellies and hearts, but outwardly the whole team usually looks as if they are about to take a nap, whether they are winning or losing.

One of the things you often see in small market teams is a field of men playing as if their asses are on fire. Of course thats not the only way to win, but it makes for a bit more entertainment and fans don't mind losing as much when they perceive their players have left everything on the field.

cupcollector99
04-27-08, 09:50 AM
Not much to say about this. Is the team underperforming? Yes. I don't think they've forgotten how to compete, just a string of tough luck. Crappy weather, a few injuries (the team is old), getting shafted by the scheduler, no days off, weak offense, growing pains of the young starters that nobody wanted to trade for established talent.. Taken one at a time and it's no big deal but pile it all together and it's having an effect.
Don't forget it took an historic effort by ARod and an incredible run of wins in the second half for this team to secure the wildcard last year.

The games in April are just as important as the games in September but it's easier to make up for mistakes in April than mistakes in September, especially with the resources the Yankees have.

Calm Down.

apalradio
04-27-08, 10:00 AM
John, I like your humor. I don't think anyone is calling it a "season". It's just that there seems to be a lot of indicators that this season is headed in the same direction and people are frustrated with that prospect and no one wants to hear it's early anymore. It's been 7 years and the fans seem hungrier to win than the organization. We're all there through thick and thin and we'll be there all season, no matter how frustrating it is to watch this team.Yes, we'll be there in spite of another season of "early" frustrations. I don't necessarily agree that we want this more than the organization does, but the bad judgement shown by the organization in recent years has been a head scratcher. Not going into this season with more depth in the rotation and a backup plan for two inexperienced young starters and a consistency challenged old veteran showed either stupidity or arrogance on the part of the front office. Not sure which. Maybe both.

The Q Bomb
04-27-08, 10:51 AM
Q - I am often on the same page with you and I completely understand where you are coming from. But I don't think it's a matter of competing. IMO there seems to be varying degrees of tightness and complacency at times if that makes any sense. I see the tightness against the better teams like Cleveland and complacency against weaker teams like the series in Baltimore where it seems like the team is sleepwalking and everyone waiting around for one of the many stars on the team to do something.

But I think it's closer to the truth to say the organization has forgotten how to construct a balanced championship caliber team. I don't want to write a book in this response to explain every detail to back this up as to why there hasn't been a WS title since 2000 so I'll just touch on a few points.

I think your read on how the team doesn't seem to compete is close. These days the Yankees don't seem to have enough ultra competitors on the team. In other words, not enough "a-holes" in the clubhouse, and I mean that in a good way. There's not an O'Neill, not a Wells, not a Clemens (before he just became a part-timer), or even lesser talented jackasses like Leyritz or Chad Curtis. The Yankees have a lot of talented, well spoken and intelligent nice guys on the team. The dynasty teams would be the aggressors instead of the hunted like theyseem to be now. There is also some dead weight (Giambi, Farnsworth, Betemit, Traber to name a few) players in varying degrees of decline (Mussina, Damon, Matsui, Posada) some inexperience and gaps in certain areas (pitching).

I see the type of toughness you want in guys like Joba and even a lesser talent like Duncan. The Yankees have a $200 Million team but they are still paying for years of inadvisable spending and bad trades. They are trying to do the right things now but they are truly a team in transition and unless a few helpful changes are made during the season, they are going to have a very tough time even getting to the post season, let alone getting deep into it.














Great post, yankeeman. I do agree. I used the term compete, as I said before, perhaps not in the truest sense of the word, but I guess to indicate that the team, as a whole, frequently does not "rise to the occasion" whether due to an inability to execute or a fear of failure, or due to the poorly constructed make-up of the team.

The last issue, poor roster construction, is something I've pointed out on this forum since 2002. I actually think it's less of a factor this season; I think the problem is more an inability to execute at this point. I truly expect the young pitchers to get better, much better, and to become strong starting pitchers over the course of their careers, however, it is very difficult for them to grow on a team that is not comprised of at least one dominant pitcher and two other very strong pitchers - on a Yankee team that is expected to make the playoffs at the very least. It may have been unrealistic to put that burden on Hughes and Kennedy with a Mussina (who I agree has not been too bad) who can't be counted on; a Pettitte who is a great competitor but a year older and does have sporadic health issues; and Wang, who is obviously in the process of reinventing himself as a pitcher by adding new pitches to his repertoire - which could mean some shaky starts.

Again, I know Cano will start to hit and hit well; I know A-Rod will hit better than he is now; but just looking at individual at-bats, pitches thrown is specific situations, etc. - the team as a whole is not elevating it's game as needed. The players seem like they do well or not just based on their own ability to do so and not based on the situation. (I know that sentence doesn't make complete sense grammatically but I hope it conveys what I mean.) The old teams used to have this mentality, "...just don't make an out...". Now, of course, they did make outs and plenty of them but more often than not they were able to do execute in crucial situations and that is not the case now.

Hopefully this can just be chalked up to youth and inexperience, but that doesn't take into account LaTroy Hawkins, Billy Traber, Johnny Damon (up to last week), Robinson Cano, to name a few. I will consider it a decent month if we are at least at .500 (which I guess at this point is as good as possible) but I'm more concerned with the inability to get the big hit, make the big pitch or big play than their win-loss record right now.

I also don't think that Girardi, who still has to establish his relationship with the team, going off on the players will help that much. Leyland, has built up much stature as a manager over the years and has had several years, and a record of success with The Tigers so that's a different situation.

montrealer
04-27-08, 10:56 AM
Q - I am often on the same page with you and I completely understand where you are coming from. But I don't think it's a matter of competing. IMO there seems to be varying degrees of tightness and complacency at times if that makes any sense. I see the tightness against the better teams like Cleveland and complacency against weaker teams like the series in Baltimore where it seems like the team is sleepwalking and everyone waiting around for one of the many stars on the team to do something.

But I think it's closer to the truth to say the organization has forgotten how to construct a balanced championship caliber team. I don't want to write a book in this response to explain every detail to back this up as to why there hasn't been a WS title since 2000 so I'll just touch on a few points.

I think your read on how the team doesn't seem to compete is close. These days the Yankees don't seem to have enough ultra competitors on the team. In other words, not enough "a-holes" in the clubhouse, and I mean that in a good way. There's not an O'Neill, not a Wells, not a Clemens (before he just became a part-timer), or even lesser talented jackasses like Leyritz or Chad Curtis. The Yankees have a lot of talented, well spoken and intelligent nice guys on the team. The dynasty teams would be the aggressors instead of the hunted like theyseem to be now. There is also some dead weight (Giambi, Farnsworth, Betemit, Traber to name a few) players in varying degrees of decline (Mussina, Damon, Matsui, Posada) some inexperience and gaps in certain areas (pitching).

I see the type of toughness you want in guys like Joba and even a lesser talent like Duncan. The Yankees have a $200 Million team but they are still paying for years of inadvisable spending and bad trades. They are trying to do the right things now but they are truly a team in transition and unless a few helpful changes are made during the season, they are going to have a very tough time even getting to the post season, let alone getting deep into it.















That being said..........I`ve been watching this game for 40 odd years........Arse-holes do not win WS .........pitching does......and we`re short on that in all aspects except closing. ........But point taken.;)

b-ball-lunachick
04-27-08, 11:28 AM
Q Bomb and mycroft need to get a talk show asap.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

yankeeman61
04-27-08, 12:07 PM
That being said..........I`ve been watching this game for 40 odd years........Arse-holes do not win WS .........pitching does......and we`re short on that in all aspects except closing. ........But point taken.;)

Likewise...the superior pitching usually makes the difference once you get there, except for the Braves which many believe should have more than 1 WS title. I've been following the game about the same amount of time as you and I have seen the same dominant WS teams - the A's '72-'74, Reds '75-'76, Yankees '77-'78 & '96-'00 and we have to consider the Red Sox for winning 2 of the last 4. All of these teams had strong pitching, as well as their share of very tough and tenacious competitors on their rosters. I also think desire and hungriness can make a difference, as I believe was the reason the Red Sox won in '04. That team could have understandably died after the way it lost in '03, and especially after getting crushed in game 3. Talent being very close to equal in the post season, it can come down to desire which can make the difference under pressure. I know a lot of people will call BS on this (especially the sabermaniacs) but I think to underestimate the will of a team is a big mistake. We've seen it come into play for the last several post seasons.

JDPNYY
04-27-08, 12:48 PM
Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Yankees have forgotten how to win. They stand an insurmountable 2.5 games out of first place with just 137 games to play (plus or minus, after games that just may never be made up). What's the magic number?

The beutifully assembled Orioles are running away with the division. Some of you mocked the great Angelos, but his 10 year plan is bearing fruit. The Red Sox have lost 4 in a row. Stick a fork in them. They may not win again if Curt (as tough as dirt) does not get back on his feet soon. The Jays, who were to give the Yanks and Sox all kind of troubles should begin the rebuilding process today. Why wait.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Indians have won 5 straight. They have awoken, and they haven't even had to break out the bugs as yet. If they can continue this walk off streak - I see them putting up a serious challenge to the Ozzie-led Pale Hose Machine. Everyone's pick in the preseason articles - The Mighty Detroit Tigers have been a complete bust. They sit in the Central Basement. Three (yes, three) full games out. They need a Steve Phillips in their front office. There's no hope for this year, but he could help them get on track for future seasons.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

The Marlins, finally (thankfully) completely over the Girardi era, are poised to make yet another World Series run. They play lights out baseball. The Mets are not quite done, but Willie's Team is fading in the rear view mirror, they stand 5-5 over their last 10 games. You don't get to the last month of the season in first place with play like that.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Perhaps the biggest surprise of all is the gutty gritty Juan Pierre-led Tories. Done. At 6 games out it's looking like Joe's new era can already be deemed a bust.

Will the Padres ever score a run?



Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Despite the disappointment, I think we can all agree that this season was fun. I'm sorry to see it end.

Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Just a matter of time before folks start calling for Cano to be sent back down to the minors.

JDPNYY
04-27-08, 12:50 PM
Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Just a matter of time before folks start calling for Cano to be sent back down to the minors.

Oops. Late.

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=5077601&postcount=1597

LeapsNbounds
04-27-08, 12:58 PM
From what I can remember, this is the SAME exact thing that happened last April. Spotty hitting and pitching, injuries and inconsistency. We are 2.5 out, that is NOTHING compared to the 14.5 game deficit the Yankees nearly erased last season.

Please step away from the ledge....................... ;)

JDPNYY
04-27-08, 01:01 PM
From what I can remember, this is the SAME exact thing that happened last April. Spotty hitting and pitching, injuries and inconsistency. We are 2.5 out, that is NOTHING compared to the 14.5 game deficit the Yankees nearly erased last season.

Please step away from the ledge....................... ;)

You fail to understand that a Baseball Season is a sprint. 2.5 Games Out can not be made up. Not with the Orioles holding down the top spot. They may never lose again. More need to get on the ledge.

LeapsNbounds
04-27-08, 01:04 PM
You fail to understand that a Baseball Season is a sprint. 2.5 Games Out can not be made up. Not with the Orioles holding down the top spot. They may never lose again. More need to get on the ledge.

That's why I gave up on watching the yankees in Spring Training, I knew they didn't have it.........

I can't believe we actually play the season, I mean if you can win every game, whats the point?

Abe Frohman
04-27-08, 01:09 PM
Yankeeman , i completely agree with you. The game consists of more than just

stats. The problem is that everyone expects this team to just win. plain and simple.

So much so that i think theres a certain sense of complacency, where the

players expect the win to come to them, without any fight. thats complete crap.

There was a particular AB that really showed me some REAL guts so far this

season. The AB that melky had against Halladay on opening night was amazing.

I think this was the defining AB of his career and showed that hes not just going to

be a medicore 270-280 hitter. 10 pitch AB, with guts and fight and glory and then

BOOM ! a bomb down the right field line. Can someone answer this ? what is

our record in close, tight games in extra innings at home or away ? cause for the

past couple of years weve sucked at close games i think. those playoff

atmosphere kind of games that a WS caliber team finds a way to win. we need

to find OUR way. cause if not its gonna be the same ol story in october. I mean

its not like this team is not making the playoffs, but whats the point of gettin

there and goin home 3-4 games later ?

ColombiaYanksFan
04-27-08, 01:25 PM
Am I losing my mind , or am I really seeing Yankees hitting into record double plays, killing rally after rally on a consistent basis?

and 2 for 15 with a chance to drive in runs this series!

When I see Cano going after bad pitches, also striking out on pitches down the middle, Giambi with his constant foul pop up outs, and A-Rod swinging at bad pitches, I just start pulling my hairs out and realize that this team may be overrated and not a playoff caliber team.

they're looking like the Denver Nuggets of the NBA. Full of talent, but always struggling not to lose.

You would think the Yankees appear to have 5 Manny's on this team with so many superstars, and hit clutch when one don't the other will. But NO!

Joba's Rings
04-27-08, 01:27 PM
I'd much rather panic than take the time to think rationally.

Chairman-of-TheBoard
04-27-08, 02:16 PM
Ahhhh, April Baseball.

Just a matter of time before folks start calling for Cano to be sent back down to the minors.

Giambi needs to spend the rest of his time as a Yankee far, far away from the Bronx. After Duncan's excellent stretch to catch Jeter's throw against Cleveland in game 3, I saw Giambi standing next to him in the dugout looking at Shelley as if to say, "I want to be just like you when I grow up."

joesalto
04-27-08, 02:17 PM
I'd much rather panic than take the time to think rationally.

most people panic. Season is still young BUT this team is painful to watch, has been for a long time.

They just do so many things wrong. It's mainly why teams like the Angels own them. They take advantage of the holes in the team construction. Yanks play Red Sox well because they are very similar.

Cashman deserves much of the blame. We went into this season needing some things to work out and they are big "IFs".

The Q Bomb
04-27-08, 02:20 PM
I'd much rather panic than take the time to think rationally. Nobody's panicking; we just see our team performing below expectations and are pointing out what we think are some of the problems. Maybe you anticipated this team being 1 game under .500 at this point; having a lousy average with RISP; having a bullpen that can't hold a lead; and with the two young starters averaging little more than 3 innings a start - but most of us didn't and come to this forum to discuss our disappointment; the same way we come here to give props to our team and share our joy in their success.

joesalto
04-27-08, 02:27 PM
Nobody's panicking; we just see our team performing below expectations and are pointing out what we think are some of the problems. Maybe you anticipated this team being 1 game under .500 at this point; having a lousy average with RISP; having a bullpen that can't hold a lead; and with the two young starters averaging little more than 3 innings a start - but most of us didn't and come to this forum to discuss our disappointment; the same way we come here to give props to our team and share our joy in their success.

this team is constructed to be a wild card team right now at best.

here is what is holding us back
1. failure to have a 3rd starter. Mosse's declien is greatly exaggerated. He is a #4, but after Wang and Pettitte, we cant trust that Hughes and IPK will be good for 6 innings per start, that in turn will kill your bullpen as we see.
2. Our bullpen is ok but has been overworked due to the lack of a #3 starter. the biggest mistake was not trading Farns. He could bring something back in return. He is not being used and is not trusted.

Rocketbooster
04-27-08, 02:32 PM
this team is constructed to be a wild card team right now at best.

here is what is holding us back
1. failure to have a 3rd starter. Mosse's declien is greatly exaggerated. He is a #4, but after Wang and Pettitte, we cant trust that Hughes and IPK will be good for 6 innings per start, that in turn will kill your bullpen as we see.
2. Our bullpen is ok but has been overworked due to the lack of a #3 starter. the biggest mistake was not trading Farns. He could bring something back in return. He is not being used and is not trusted.

Phil is going to be the #3 and a good one by the end of the year. He was rushed last year, no question, due to injuries to the rotation, but we will have to deal with his growing pains. He will be a much better pitcher in the end because of these bumps in the road. Not having a backup for Kennedy, who doesn't have nearly the stuff Phil does and only made 3 starts last year - and Moose - that I can understand being annoyed about.

joesalto
04-27-08, 02:43 PM
Phil is going to be the #3 and a good one by the end of the year. He was rushed last year, no question, due to injuries to the rotation, but we will have to deal with his growing pains. He will be a much better pitcher in the end because of these bumps in the road. Not having a backup for Kennedy, who doesn't have nearly the stuff Phil does and only made 3 starts last year - and Moose - that I can understand being annoyed about.

I do think Hughes is the real deal and Moose can still be effective as a #4 or #5.

I think IPK stock was really inflated and overhyped. We really need 2 veterans in a rotation going forward for 2009. I think IPK should be traded to NL team
I can see our future rotation being
Wang
Hughes
Joba
Pettitte(1 year deal)
or any of the big name free agents
here is a complete list available
Starting Pitchers
Kris Bensen BAL
A.J. Burnett TOR (may opt out)
Paul Byrd CLE
Jon Garland LAA
Tom Glavine ATL
Mike Hampton * ATL
Rich Harden * OAK
Orlando Hernandez NYM
Jason Jennings TEX
Randy Johnson ARZ
John Lackey * LAA
Esteban Loaiza OAK
Braden Looper STL
Derek Lowe LAD
Pedro Martinez NYM
Matt Morris * PIT
Mike Mussina NYY
Jamie Moyer PHI
Mark Mulder * STL
Carl Pavano NYY
Brad Penny * LAD
Odalis Perez WAS
Oliver Perez NYM
Andy Pettitte NYY
Mark Prior SD
Horatio Ramirez SEA
C.C. Sabathia CLE
Ben Sheets MIL
John Smoltz * ATL
Julian Tavarez BOS
Steve Trachsel BAL
Brett Tomko KC
Claudio Vargas MIL
Randy Wolf SD

Rocketbooster
04-27-08, 03:16 PM
Joe, I like Ian - he will be a fine pitcher. However, perhaps he zipped too quickly through the system. He may not be ready for the big leagues now and I would say he's definitely not if Ken Rosenthal's comments are true. I don't want to trade Ian at all (unless you are talking about a stud young pitcher, but none of those are on the block). If/When Phil and Joba live up to their potential, Ian will be a perfect #3 or 4 starter.

The Q Bomb
04-27-08, 03:26 PM
That atrocious at-bat by A-Rod is exactly what I'm talking about. That is a spot where whoever is at bat, lowly # 9 hitter, or light hitting # 1 hitter, has to get the run in. It doesn't even have to be a hit and you, who are the best player on this team, don't come through. There are plenty of times when the best player on a team doesn't come through, but in this instance, in the circumstances with which your team finds itself, you had to come through and you didn't. Not only did he not come through, but he didn't even (seem to) battle. He didn't take it to a 3-2 count; he didn't foul off a bunch of pitches; he didn't drive the ball just short of getting the run in; or hit it too hard to the right side so the run couldn't come in - he basically did nothing.

That's what I thought about when I created this thread yesterday. The last thing Kennedy needed to do with the bases loaded was walk somebody - but that's exactly what he did. Hawkins came in and didn't even get to a 3-2 count on the first batter - he walked him on 4 pitches; in a situation when it was crucial he not get a runner on base. Granted, there was something going on with his landing spot on the mound and he eventually did not give up any runs that inning, but the point is he, and Ohlendorf, did exactly the opposite, of what was needed. Today, A-Rod did the one thing that would not get in the run. Situations like this (seem to) happen with regularity on The Yankees instead of occasionally.

bomber999
04-27-08, 03:30 PM
You fail to understand that a Baseball Season is a sprint. 2.5 Games Out can not be made up. Not with the Orioles holding down the top spot. They may never lose again. More need to get on the ledge.

Sarcasm well-taken. However, why is everyone who, correctly, criticizes the Yankees's performance this year (and in years' past)- based on empirical observation- an automatic ledge-jumper? It's like there are only two recognized camps- those who feel the Yankees are doomed, and those who appear to be choosing to ignore or minimize some disturbing patterns in their play and, perhaps, their moxie.

The truth, as usual, lies somewhere in between.

The Q Bomb
04-27-08, 03:37 PM
Sarcasm well-taken. However, why is everyone who, correctly, criticizes the Yankees's performance this year (and in years' past)- based on empirical observation- an automatic ledge-jumper? It's like there are only two recognized camps- those who feel the Yankees are doomed, and those who appear to be choosing to ignore or minimize some disturbing patterns in their play and, perhaps, their moxie.

The truth, as usual, lies somewhere in between. Good and quite valid points.

P.S. In all fairness, tough luck must also be factored into The Yankees' performance over the last several years. You can't use that as an excuse, but, I can't think of another team who has had the adverse luck, whether it's the Pavano fiasco; Matsui and Sheffield (and someone else that year too?) getting injured in the first month of the season and out until September; all the injuries at the beginning last year; our third string catcher getting his hand or leg broken in spring training and our first string catcher going down two days after putting our next back-up on waivers. The Yankees have really become the hard luck gang.

Joba's Rings
04-27-08, 07:07 PM
That atrocious at-bat by A-Rod is exactly what I'm talking about. That is a spot where whoever is at bat, lowly # 9 hitter, or light hitting # 1 hitter, has to get the run in. It doesn't even have to be a hit and you, who are the best player on this team, don't come through. There are plenty of times when the best player on a team doesn't come through, but in this instance, in the circumstances with which your team finds itself, you had to come through and you didn't. Not only did he not come through, but he didn't even (seem to) battle. He didn't take it to a 3-2 count; he didn't foul off a bunch of pitches; he didn't drive the ball just short of getting the run in; or hit it too hard to the right side so the run couldn't come in - he basically did nothing. This is an incredible post.

"...had to come through?" "...he didn't even (seem to) battle?" Don't take this the wrong way - but do you understand the game of baseball?

The Q Bomb
04-27-08, 07:12 PM
This is an incredible post.

"...had to come through?" "...he didn't even (seem to) battle?" Don't take this the wrong way - but do you understand the game of baseball? Of course, I do. I've been watching The Yankees for over 40 years. I didn't say he went up to the plate looking to go back to the dugout as soon as possible. I said, when the team needed a hit in a crucial spot he had an extremely bad at bat. The fact that I used a bit of hyperbole to illustrate my point doesn't diminish the point - that he didn't come through in a big spot. I'm flattered that you find that "incredible".

Joba's Rings
04-27-08, 07:14 PM
Come on now. You wrote out a paragraph, added italics...the works. That was no hyperbole. You meant every single word.

And it's just plain silly to expect any batter - A-Rod, Jeter...anyone - to have successful at-bats even most of the time in those sort of situations. Or even "good", as you defined it.

montrealer
04-27-08, 07:21 PM
Come all-Star break and see where we stand we need to sit back and let this team come together as a team. New manager ,young pitching staff and injuries and some of you will scream All-Star break.....that`s too late........well I saw this year as a "Transition Year" anyway. Too many changes to the Pitching staff in a year with an all new coaching staff. Too many little things to overcome......maybe our WS expectations were a little high and need to look at the future instead .anyway that`s my 2 cents.....

YanksFan1992
04-27-08, 07:34 PM
Sure it is looking down now, especially with Posada having what seems to be a very bad injury.

However, Molina has played well, our pitching prospects at this point are still much better than they were at this point last year and we still have one of the best offenses in baseball.

This can and should be a playoff team. :NY:

mrmike98
04-27-08, 07:42 PM
Only at this site would this topic be found.

Then again, I'm adding to it. Ain't I?

Ynkcpt23
04-27-08, 08:30 PM
Yes, we'll be there in spite of another season of "early" frustrations. I don't necessarily agree that we want this more than the organization does, but the bad judgement shown by the organization in recent years has been a head scratcher. Not going into this season with more depth in the rotation and a backup plan for two inexperienced young starters and a consistency challenged old veteran showed either stupidity or arrogance on the part of the front office. Not sure which. Maybe both.

Normally I have to take your posts with a grain of salt, but you make a pretty good point here. I said before the season started (and was somewhat roundly dismissed) that we should look into another vet arm for the rotation in case of...well, exactly what's happened. None of the minds in our FO are stupid, I just am not sure that beyond the viewpoint to "work from within" that they decided to give short shrift to the idea that their plans were going to take a while to take shape and show real progress. This is an offensive team that's built for the now, and though I agree with the direction we're heading in, we need to capitalize on our capabilities on the offensive side now, before we're half the run-scoring threat we are right now.

yankeeman61
04-27-08, 10:27 PM
Of course, I do. I've been watching The Yankees for over 40 years. I didn't say he went up to the plate looking to go back to the dugout as soon as possible. I said, when the team needed a hit in a crucial spot he had an extremely bad at bat. The fact that I used a bit of hyperbole to illustrate my point doesn't diminish the point - that he didn't come through in a big spot. I'm flattered that you find that "incredible".

:lol:

BTW I don't believe you would jump off a bridge, but don't you get the sense some people might be willing to push you off if you have a different opinion from theirs? :lol:

The Q Bomb
04-27-08, 10:31 PM
:lol:

BTW I don't believe you would jump off a bridge, but don't you get the sense some people might be willing to push you off if you have a different opinion from theirs? :lol:Indubitably! ;)

TheInfallibleOne
04-27-08, 10:46 PM
at what point do we see the Fire Girardi NOW Threads, the Lets Trade our top prospect for Flavor of the First Half threads, and my personal favorite, the Were Doomed! threads?

Anyone wanna start up the new versions of The Run, The Grind, and The Gauntlet?

DiMaggio5CF
04-27-08, 10:54 PM
at what point do we see the Fire Girardi NOW Threads, the Lets Trade our top prospect for Flavor of the First Half threads, and my personal favorite, the Were Doomed! threads?

Anyone wanna start up the new versions of The Run, The Grind, and The Gauntlet?

I don't know about that, but Cashman should definitely get on the phone with the Brewers and work out a Hughes-for-Kapler deal ASAP.

Joba's Rings
04-27-08, 11:03 PM
:lol:

BTW I don't believe you would jump off a bridge, but don't you get the sense some people might be willing to push you off if you have a different opinion from theirs? :lol:
Is this one of those boards where all opinions are considered equally valid and cannot be contested?

yankeeman61
04-27-08, 11:05 PM
Is this one of those boards where all opinions are considered equally valid and cannot be contested?

It depends on who you ask :D

Joba's Rings
04-27-08, 11:06 PM
It depends on who you ask :D
Now that's a pretty good answer. :lol:

yankswn23
04-28-08, 08:55 AM
Oh sorry sort this was the OFFICIAL has this team forgetton how to COMPETE thread.. is this serious? Every day we compete.. you can't honestly tell me we go out there to lose every day, the fact is the players are older and it takes them a month or so to get going, all the teams that are winning right now like Tampa and Baltimore, Florida, all have young players who got off to a hot start..

The Q Bomb
04-30-08, 08:52 PM
I don't know how anyone can watch a game like tonight's and not wonder about what this post is about. Again, of course, they want to win but to see game after game of missed opportunities; with 5 or 6 "three up; three down" innings; to see starting pitching murdered in the first three innings (our starting pitching that is) is so disheartening. And I don't want to hear that it's early - it's not that early. And I don't want to hear about 2nd half come-backs. As one forumer pointed out in another thread - you can only go to that well but so often. We may have used up our quota of 2nd half comebacks.

Tonight's game is just desultory. Suzyn and Sterling are really having a hard time announcing this game it's so bland (from he Yankee point of view.)

Joba's Rings
04-30-08, 09:00 PM
Posada and A-Rod are on the DL, a few guys in the lineup are in slumps, and Andy didn't have his best night on the mound. Oh, and the Tigers are pretty good. I think that's why this game is going like it is.

Not that I have any idea what's going through these guys' minds, but if I absolutely had to venture a guess I'd say they're pressing ... trying too hard. In any case, it's still certainly not that they're slacking off or have forgotten how to compete or aren't gritty or any number of other cliches.


(Also, did you mean to use desultory there? That's an odd choice of words given the sentence that follows.)

yankeeman61
04-30-08, 10:31 PM
I don't know how anyone can watch a game like tonight's and not wonder about what this post is about. Again, of course, they want to win but to see game after game of missed opportunities; with 5 or 6 "three up; three down" innings; to see starting pitching murdered in the first three innings (our starting pitching that is) is so disheartening. And I don't want to hear that it's early - it's not that early. And I don't want to hear about 2nd half come-backs. As one forumer pointed out in another thread - you can only go to that well but so often. We may have used up our quota of 2nd half comebacks.

Tonight's game is just desultory. Suzyn and Sterling are really having a hard time announcing this game it's so bland (from he Yankee point of view.)

Glad I missed this one tonight. What is going on with Pettitte? Two games in a row he implodes in the middle of the game?

apalradio
04-30-08, 10:45 PM
Guess this was yet another game where we have to tip our hat to the opposing pitcher for having great stuff and shutting down our offense. Furthermore, because Pettitte and Wang are the only two pitchers in our rotation that can be counted on to consistently compete against the best teams, neither one can ever afford a bad outing. So when one happens, like tonight, it basically means we lose an average of at least three out of the next five games, if not four. With another offensive outburst of five hits tonight, it sure does look like the tank is empty on this team's competitive aptitude.

nyyfanatic85
04-30-08, 10:46 PM
Well, it could be worse. Like 11-19.

Mark19
04-30-08, 10:51 PM
Either they're exhausted or they just don't care

I don't get this discouraged about the hockey, basketball or football teams I follow because they usually aren't talented enough to win. In this case, they just aren't focused.

bronxburning
04-30-08, 11:13 PM
Guess this was yet another game where we have to tip our hat to the opposing pitcher for having great stuff and shutting down our offense. Furthermore, because Pettitte and Wang are the only two pitchers in our rotation that can be counted on to consistently compete against the best teams, neither one can ever afford a bad outing. So when one happens, like tonight, it basically means we lose an average of at least three out of the next five games, if not four. With another offensive outburst of five hits tonight, it sure does look like the tank is empty on this team's competitive aptitude.

The Red Sox offense score a total of 3 runs in the last two games and they won both. Our pitchers just need to pitch and keep the offense in the game.

apalradio
04-30-08, 11:18 PM
The Red Sox offense score a total of 3 runs in the last two games and they won both. Our pitchers just need to pitch and keep the offense in the game.That's the point. The Sox are winning these games, AND getting good pitching. We're not doing either.

diehardyankeefan
04-30-08, 11:21 PM
This is get frustrating. I'm hearing the word "2007" in my head right now, because this team might be in the bottom of the standings as the season goes on and then have to make up so much ground in the standings in July and August. I mean I don't know if the Yankees can pull off another run like last year. If this problem goes on for another week or so, the Yankees will find themselves in last year's position. And I don't want this team to miss the playoffs in the last year at YS.

bronxburning
04-30-08, 11:26 PM
This is get frustrating. I'm hearing the word "2007" in my head right now, because this team might be in the bottom of the standings as the season goes on and then have to make up so much ground in the standings in July and August. I mean I don't know if the Yankees can pull off another run like last year. If this problem goes on for another week or so, the Yankees will find themselves in last year's position. And I don't want this team to miss the playoffs in the last year at YS.

Last year, they had Arod and he had a MVP year. This year he is hurt. Last year they had Joe Torre who can motivate his players. This year we have Giardi who is not a motivator and is just playing Russian Roulette with his relief pitchers.

Joba's Rings
04-30-08, 11:28 PM
Last year they had Joe Torre who can motivate his players. This year we have Giardi who is not a motivator and is just playing Russian Roulette with his relief pitchers.
What on earth are you talking about?

diehardyankeefan
04-30-08, 11:31 PM
What on earth are you talking about?
I was thinking the same thing after that quote. Last time I checked, didn'tTorre burn everyone's arm in the BP and Girardi is managing this bullpen the best he can not to overuse some pitcher's arms.

Rich
04-30-08, 11:32 PM
What on earth are you talking about?

I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with rings. Oh wait, Girardi has three, so that can't be it.

Joba's Rings
04-30-08, 11:39 PM
I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with rings. Oh wait, Girardi has three, so that can't be it.
That's one fewer than Torre, though. :(

UconnYankeeFan
05-01-08, 12:08 AM
I don't think that this team doesn't compete well- I just think they have a different mentality as a team than the 96-2000 teams we were spoiled with. Those teams fed off the emotions of one another and the moment, but could handle their emotions and change it to supreme focus once they got to the plate (i.e. tino, paulie, brosius, etc.). This team does not seem to be able to do that quite as readily. The major parts of the 96-2000 teams were all about the same age at the same time (with a few exceptions). This team has a wide variation in age- we have very young players and very old players, but virtually noone contributing that is on the young side of their prime besides CMW. I do think the younger generation is much more fiery and more "win-or-die" but, for the time being, deferring to the veterans. This is without question a transition year, and I think we'll see both the level of play (I am really, really excited about the next few years) and the competitive fire escalate with players like Joba leading the way. That said, I believe we can still compete this season, because the Yankees are better than other teams and can still dominate even in a transition year.;)

Mark19
05-01-08, 08:05 PM
Talking about playing for the 3-Run Homer

They get their 3-run homer and promptly stop competing

teknetic
05-01-08, 08:07 PM
They were better at this point last year..that team showed some signs of life late in the game. We're really the only team who'll have a pitcher on the ropes one inning and then let him completely slide and put up a good start afterwards. Just putrid.

BonusCantos
05-01-08, 08:29 PM
I wouldn't think they've forgotten how to compete.

Forgotten how to hit? Now that's a different story.

teknetic
05-01-08, 09:09 PM
This is the worst they've looked in a long while. Anemic offense claws back to get into the game after a 1 run defecit only to watch our pitchers give it right back and some in the next inning.

yankeeman61
05-01-08, 09:59 PM
It's just great when teams use the Yankees to propel themselves. Now that the Tigers are on track, who else can the Yankees help?

TEPLimey
05-01-08, 10:08 PM
WTF does it mean to "forget how to compete"? Competition isn't a set of keys that you lose in your couch cushions.

If "forgetting how to compete" means "forgetting how not to have 2-3 irreplaceable players injured and not have growing pains with their 2 rookie starters" then yes, this team has forgotten how to compete.

Ynkcpt23
05-01-08, 10:18 PM
WTF does it mean to "forget how to compete"? Competition isn't a set of keys that you lose in your couch cushions.

If "forgetting how to compete" means "forgetting how not to have 2-3 irreplaceable players injured and not have growing pains with their 2 rookie starters" then yes, this team has forgotten how to compete.

Great post, TEP! Amidst all of the crap surrounding Yankee fans tonight, you made me feel a bit better.

Mark19
05-01-08, 10:22 PM
WTF does it mean to "forget how to compete"? Competition isn't a set of keys that you lose in your couch cushions.

If "forgetting how to compete" means "forgetting how not to have 2-3 irreplaceable players injured and not have growing pains with their 2 rookie starters" then yes, this team has forgotten how to compete.

I wish I had your patience. I just can't be at peace with their terrible efforts. A lot of these guys are healthy veterans but still can't contribute.

cupcollector99
05-01-08, 10:40 PM
The team needs luck. A few balls to fall in, an error here or there and they're a few games over 500.
They built this 2008 team on offense. The bats were supposed to overcome the young pitching and keep them in it. If they scored their usual 7 runs a game, they would be in good shape but when the offense went down with injuries, they were screwed.
Cash and Hank rolled the dice and they knew it could blow up in their faces, just not so early. The team will probably claw it's way back into the discussion but they'll never compete with the more complete team in the league, the Tigers being one and the Indians being another. Actually, I don't have the confidence that this squad could defeat Tampa and Texas in a three game series.
This is the youth movement everyone screamed for. Wait until they really start to rebuild next year. There will be some fun threads then.

CyYoung4Vazquez
05-01-08, 10:45 PM
They don't need luck, they need skill. This team is effing terrible.


The team needs luck. A few balls to fall in, an error here or there and they're a few games over 500.
They built this 2008 team on offense. The bats were supposed to overcome the young pitching and keep them in it. If they scored their usual 7 runs a game, they would be in good shape but when the offense went down with injuries, they were screwed.
Cash and Hank rolled the dice and they knew it could blow up in their faces, just not so early. The team will probably claw it's way back into the discussion but they'll never compete with the more complete team in the league, the Tigers being one and the Indians being another. Actually, I don't have the confidence that this squad could defeat Tampa and Texas in a three game series.
This is the youth movement everyone screamed for. Wait until they really start to rebuild next year. There will be some fun threads then.

dkman
05-01-08, 11:00 PM
This thread is going to make my head explode. I'll have to go read some FJM, where they know that what the Yankees need is more grit and hustle. Maybe a trade for Eckstein or Erstad would do it?

26 and counting
05-02-08, 07:18 AM
Some people say that the players don't care. I'm at the point where I don't even care. If they lose, screw 'em. Even before the season started, I was skeptical about this team. They didn't do ANYTHING to improve this team in the offseason, and now the old players are a year older, and the new players are inexperienced and will suffer a lot of growing pains. So if they lose, whatever. I'm not going to dwell on it.

26 and counting
05-02-08, 07:27 AM
Last year, they had Arod and he had a MVP year. This year he is hurt. Last year they had Joe Torre who can motivate his players. This year we have Giardi who is not a motivator and is just playing Russian Roulette with his relief pitchers.

Right, blame Girardi. He's the one who's pitching all the meatballs and striking out on balls in the dirt.

Managers are so overrated in baseball. It's not like a football game where there's X's and O's and they have to be involved in the setup of every play. A baseball manager can just nap for two innings and let his best hitters swing away and his ace pitcher strike everyone out.

For example, take Joe Torre. Did he all of a suddent become a genius when he managed the Yankees? No, he won because the Yankees had good players. When Torre managed those National League teams he lost because he had bad players.

I think the Yankees' woes have nothing to do with Girardi. He was able to motivate the Marlins a couple of years ago. Who's to say he can't do the same things with the Yankees?

CalYankeeFan
05-02-08, 07:33 AM
This is the worst they've looked in a long while. Anemic offense claws back to get into the game after a 1 run defecit only to watch our pitchers give it right back and some in the next inning.

The defense looks terrible too - any ball hit to left or right field becomes an adventure.

cupcollector99
05-02-08, 08:00 AM
These guys are vets, they see the writing on the wall. This team is a few bad weeks away from a full blown rebuilding project which is a good thing IMO.

cajunyankee
05-03-08, 12:04 PM
Some people say that the players don't care. I'm at the point where I don't even care. If they lose, screw 'em. Even before the season started, I was skeptical about this team. They didn't do ANYTHING to improve this team in the offseason, and now the old players are a year older, and the new players are inexperienced and will suffer a lot of growing pains. So if they lose, whatever. I'm not going to dwell on it. Didn't do anything in the offseason? How about three humongous contracts which locked up key contributors well into retirement and beyond!!!!

ZIM 2002
05-03-08, 12:08 PM
Right now it seems Cano's contract went to his head!

Joba's Rings
05-03-08, 07:00 PM
The Yankees are 2.5 games out of first place in the AL East.

BrandonA33
05-04-08, 11:42 AM
I chalk the start up to inconsistancy, and an improved AL East. Lets face it, Toronto, Tampa, and Baltimore aren't being pushed around by NY and Bos right now. The parody in this division right now is great. K.C. started off hot. There hasn't been the series against the dog yet to get the bats and pitching working at the same time. I don't worry until the AS break

Mark19
05-06-08, 10:32 PM
15 chances for come from behind wins, 15 failures to make noise

I remember when even the best closers feared facing the Yankees, now every team has at least two relievers we can barely make contact against.

yankswn23
05-08-08, 10:32 AM
This thread is as dumb as the are we ever going to score any runs thread, it's a major league baseball team they are comptitive every game.

wardsp
05-09-08, 04:00 PM
This thread is as dumb as the are we ever going to score any runs thread, it's a major league baseball team they are comptitive every game.

Really? Doesn't look like it, especially when they are behind.

The Q Bomb
05-12-08, 09:53 PM
Tonight's game is just pitiful. Like I said, there's losing and there's losing - and this team manages to look like they don't even belong on the same field with some of their opponents.

I understand the magnituded of the injuries we've sustained; I understand a lot of the teams we face are much stronger than they've been in years past; but even so - we look like The 2005 Devil Rays - with 4 times the payroll. I can't even believe I brought that up since I take issue with anyone taking pot shots at The Yankees over payroll. I brought it up only to show how much worse our desultory play looks when it's the play of such accomplished players.

There is no way a team like The Yankees, injuries or not, should have such a preponderance of hopeless, listless, down in the dumps, games like tonight's game. This could be the what 4th time this young season we're shut out?! Remember when it was a big deal if we were shut out once?! Our offense this year seems to consist of walks, hit batsmen, and some heavy hitting bloops. Our fielding looks bad, our offense is lethargic, and our pitching is mediocre - at best.

I'm sure the team will improve, mainly because I don't think they can get much worse, and of course, when A-Rod comes back (hopefully) and IF Posada makes it back this year - the offense will be a bit more potent - but, you can't look at a game like this and tell me the team looks competitive.


PITIFUL!

Mark19
05-12-08, 09:55 PM
I think we're good enough to lose tight games to any team in baseball.

b_joseph
05-12-08, 09:59 PM
Every team competes, its just that Baseball makes you look really sluggish when things are not going your way.

This isnt football, Basketball or Hockey where you can clearly see changes in competitive nature.

We have the 2nd best OPS for May in the A.L.....thats a sign of competing.

gK
05-12-08, 11:06 PM
On the bright side, we are hanging around .500 when last year we were at a huge deficit.

apalradio
05-12-08, 11:08 PM
Every team competes, its just that Baseball makes you look really sluggish when things are not going your way.

This isnt football, Basketball or Hockey where you can clearly see changes in competitive nature.

We have the 2nd best OPS for May in the A.L.....thats a sign of competing.We're also ranked 19th out of 30 teams in winning percentage, we're an under .500 team, we've given up more runs than we've scored, and we lose every game that we're trailing in the late innings. Hard to see this team being all that competitive at this time.

R.V.47
05-12-08, 11:16 PM
They know how to compete but at the moment the Rays just have more talent out on the field and its not even that close. When A-Rod and Posada comes back of course we are the better team but at the moment I cant say that.

yankeeman61
05-13-08, 07:47 AM
They know how to compete but at the moment the Rays just have more talent out on the field and its not even that close. When A-Rod and Posada comes back of course we are the better team but at the moment I cant say that.

And how sad is that? We're talking the Rays vs Yankees. Yes, the Rays are improved, but should it ever get to the point where the Yankees are not as good because 2 players are injured? I won't even bring up the payroll disparity...ooops :o

BRNXBMRS
05-13-08, 09:12 AM
This team has forgotten how to put a few wins together. This win on,e lose one crap has got to stop.

R.V.47
05-13-08, 09:16 AM
And how sad is that? We're talking the Rays vs Yankees. Yes, the Rays are improved, but should it ever get to the point where the Yankees are not as good because 2 players are injured? I won't even bring up the payroll disparity...ooops :o

Look at their roster and look at ours, forget the fact that they are the Tampa Bay Rays they are more talented at the moment at basically every position except in the bullpen.

Leche28
05-13-08, 09:27 AM
Giambi shouldnt be playing. It's pretty much a fact the team wins more games when he's not in the lineup.

The lineup is just poorly constructed all around, and Giambi just has the uncanny ability to suffocate it.

tdel23
05-13-08, 09:28 AM
do you really think they doesn't want to compete?

Leche28
05-13-08, 09:30 AM
do you really think they doesn't want to compete?

No. But when theyre playing from behind they seem to completely shut down. That certainly is a lack of competetivness.

yankeeman61
05-13-08, 09:37 AM
This team has forgotten how to put a few wins together. This win on,e lose one crap has got to stop.

I have this early childhood memory of sitting in the RF grandstand at the old YS circa 1971 or so. There was a "discussion" amongst fans in the midst of a Yankee winning streak of 4 or 5 games during the Horace Clarke era. This is the equivalent of today's internet conversation about the state of the team. Most of the fans in the discussion were being positive about the team's chances when suddenly an elderly African American gentleman piped in and said something like, "What the hell are you people talking about? This team is going nowhere. Win 1, lose 2. Win 3, lose 5. You see Mickey Mantle out there? Elston Howard? Whitey Ford? NO! We got Horace Clarke, Jerry Kenney and Mike Kekich!" I wish I could channel the passion exuded by this man, who had obviously seen better times. It was funny and sad at the same time.

Now I'm not comparing this team to that one, but the feeling of frustration during an up and down season is pretty similar.

Leche28
05-13-08, 09:42 AM
“We won yesterday. If we win today, that’s two-in-a-row. If we win tomorrow, that’s called a winning streak; it has happened before “.

The immortal Lou Brown

BRNXBMRS
05-13-08, 09:43 AM
I have this early childhood memory of sitting in the RF grandstand at the old YS circa 1971 or so. There was a "discussion" amongst fans in the midst of a Yankee winning streak of 4 or 5 games during the Horace Clarke era. This is the equivalent of today's internet conversation about the state of the team. Most of the fans in the discussion were being positive about the team's chances when suddenly an elderly African American gentleman piped in and said something like, "What the hell are you people talking about? This team is going nowhere. Win 1, lose 2. Win 3, lose 5. You see Mickey Mantle out there? Elston Howard? Whitey Ford? NO! We got Horace Clarke, Jerry Kenney and Mike Kekich!" I wish I could channel the passion exuded by this man, who had obviously seen better times. It was funny and sad at the same time.

Now I'm not comparing this team to that one, but the feeling of frustration during an up and down season is pretty similar.

Yes total frustration!

The Q Bomb
05-13-08, 10:20 PM
I have this early childhood memory of sitting in the RF grandstand at the old YS circa 1971 or so. There was a "discussion" amongst fans in the midst of a Yankee winning streak of 4 or 5 games during the Horace Clarke era. This is the equivalent of today's internet conversation about the state of the team. Most of the fans in the discussion were being positive about the team's chances when suddenly an elderly African American gentleman piped in and said something like, "What the hell are you people talking about? This team is going nowhere. Win 1, lose 2. Win 3, lose 5. You see Mickey Mantle out there? Elston Howard? Whitey Ford? NO! We got Horace Clarke, Jerry Kenney and Mike Kekich!" I wish I could channel the passion exuded by this man, who had obviously seen better times. It was funny and sad at the same time.

Now I'm not comparing this team to that one, but the feeling of frustration during an up and down season is pretty similar. You know, I was probably at the game you're talking about and I'll tell you the difference between that team and this one - that team played to their capabilities. They were a team with limited talent and limited wins. This team has limited wins but (supposedly) a lot of talent.

What drives me nuts about this team, and last year's team and the 2002 team (which had a great win-loss record) is that they play way below their capabilities. Look at this team today - they didn't even compete. And before you all jump on me and tell me things I already know like, "When a team isn't hitting it looks bad."; "They just need a few hits to drop in.", or "They are missing such a big part of their offense with A-Rod and Posada out." - save it. When I say they don't compete I don't mean it as much literally as figuratively. I'm sure, or at least I hope, they are trying - but trying isn't good enough. Trying isn't good enough for a lifetime .300 hitter who is hitting .180 with almost two months of the season (1/3!) gone (Cano). Trying isn't good enough when one of your supposed power hitters is hitting 7th, batting .190 and can only run station to station (Giambi). Having the heart of your lineup make out in your half of the 7th inning on 11 pitches (when the pitcher strikes out the side - which feat requires a minimum of 9 pitches) isn't trying - or it isn't trying hard enough. I can go to Staten Island and watch The Staten Island Yankees TRY.

This is absolute bull................. First the team was doing poorly because of the awful weather; then it was doing poorly because of the terrible early schedule; now it's doing poorly because of the injuries. Well, you are a baseball team, a New York baseball team. You have to play in bad weather; you have to play 81 road games a year; and you have to play through injuries. Oh, and please note - the weather got better and the schedule got better and their losing continued. I won't be surprised if the losing continues when A-Rod returns. I'm not even sure Posada will return this season - but if so, the same goes for that eventuality.

This post is a combination of reason and venting. If I were Hank Steinbrenner on pay day when these guys are holding out their hands, all they'll get is a manual on how to compete - oh, except Wang and Matsui. Them I'll pay!

Oh, and can someone tell me why Ensberg is on the team? It's ridiculous to have both him and Gonzalez. I don't think Ensberg has added anything since Opening Day - OK, maybe there was one game in which he made a contribution.

As I said before, I've been a Yankee fan since the late 60s, and have seen some terrible Yankee teams - but this has got to be one of the most pitiful stretches of Yankee baseball (pound for pound or maybe more accurately dollar for dollar) I've ever witnessed. Absolutely PITIFUL!

Mark19
05-13-08, 10:24 PM
You know, I was probably at the game you're talking about and I'll tell you the difference between that team and this one - that team played to their capabilities. They were a team with limited talent and limited wins. This team has limited wins but (supposedly) a lot of talent.

What drives me nuts about this team, and last year's team and the 2002 team (which had a great win-loss record) is that they play way below their capabilities. Look at this team today - they didn't even compete. And before you all jump on me and tell me things I already know like, "When a team isn't hitting it looks bad."; "They just need a few hits to drop in.", or "They are missing such a big part of their offense with A-Rod and Posada out." - save it. When I say they don't compete I don't mean it as much literally as figuratively. I'm sure, or at least I hope, they are trying - but trying isn't good enough. Trying isn't good enough for a lifetime .300 hitter who is hitting .180 with almost two months of the season (1/3!) gone (Cano). Trying isn't good enough when one of your supposed power hitters is hitting 7th, batting .190 and can only run station to station (Giambi). Having the heart of your lineup make out in your half of the 7th inning on 11 pitches (when the pitcher strikes out the side - which feat requires a minimum of 9 pitches) isn't trying - or it isn't trying hard enough. I can go to Staten Island and watch The Staten Island Yankees TRY.

This is absolute bull................. First the team was doing poorly because of the awful weather; then it was doing poorly because of the terrible early schedule; now it's doing poorly because of the injuries. Well, you are a baseball team, a New York baseball team. You have to play in bad weather; you have to play 81 road games a year; and you have to play through injuries. Oh, and please note - the weather got better and the schedule got better and their losing continued. I won't be surprised if the losing continues when A-Rod returns. I'm not even sure Posada will return this season - but if so, the same goes for that eventuality.

This post is a combination of reason and venting. If I were Hank Steinbrenner on pay day when these guys are holding out their hands, all they'll get is a manual on how to compete - oh, except Wang and Matsui. Them I'll pay!

Oh, and can someone tell me why Ensberg is on the team? It's ridiculous to have both him and Gonzalez. I don't think Ensberg has added anything since Opening Day - OK, maybe there was one game in which he made a contribution.

As I said before, I've been a Yankee fan since the late 60s, and have seen some terrible Yankee teams - but this has got to be one of the most pitiful stretches of Yankee baseball (pound for pound) I've ever witnessed. Absolutely PITIFUL!

Sounds about right to me. With few exceptions, this team has become old, soft and spoiled. I have more tolerance for mediocre teams losing due to lack of talent than I do top-grade teams losing because they've forgotten how simple baseball is.

rajah
05-13-08, 10:38 PM
Two questions:

1) What is in the manual on "How to Compete"? "Hit the ball hard where they ain't"? Or "give 100%". Or "try harder and grit your teeth and run faster." And "feel really bad when you make an out".

2) What does tell Hank tell the arbitrator when the players demand their pay? "Our fans have chosen a team with the biggest payroll; they deserve a winner." "If I pay you more, there is an implicit contractual commitment to be better than a team in Tampa."

Mark19
05-13-08, 10:44 PM
Two questions:

1) What is in the manual on "How to Compete"? "Hit the ball hard where they ain't"? Or "give 100%". Or "try harder and grit your teeth and run faster." And "feel really bad when you make an out".

2) What does tell Hank tell the arbitrator when the players demand their pay? "Our fans have chosen a team with the biggest payroll; they deserve a winner." "If I pay you more, there is an implicit contractual commitment to be better than a team in Tampa."

A big part of the game is mental. Physical gifts can only accomplish so many. If players make mental errors or struggle to execute simple plays, they are failing to compete. Pitch selection falls into that as well. Guys like Abreu, Matsui and Damon can have career numbers worthy of top-tier players but if they routinely have poor ABs, they are failing to compete. The 2000 Yankees were not exceptionally talented but they got the most mileage out what they were given and were a truly opportunistic team.

rajah
05-13-08, 10:47 PM
A big part of the game is mental. Physical gifts can only accomplish so many. If players make mental errors or struggle to execute simple plays, they are failing to compete. Pitch selection falls into that as well. Guys like Abreu, Matsui and Damon can have career numbers worthy of top-tier players but if they routinely have poor ABs, they are failing to compete. The 2000 Yankees were not exceptionally talented but they got the most mileage out what they were given and were a truly opportunistic team.

How interesting! Why don't you send them a letter explaining this. Or perhaps write a speech for Girardi to give them. Or draft the entire manual. Perhaps you could sell it to several teams.

yankeeman61
05-13-08, 10:52 PM
I am waiting for Girardi to assert himself with his team. After all of the inane comments about Torre's sleepy green tea... whatever...I just have to wonder when that team meeting is going to occur. The one where Girardi starts calling out some people for lackluster play. It needs to happen.

teknetic
05-13-08, 10:52 PM
When was the last time we won an extra inning game?

Mark19
05-13-08, 10:52 PM
How interesting! Why don't you send them a letter explaining this. Or perhaps write a speech for Girardi to give them. Or draft the entire manual. Perhaps you could sell it to several teams.

Your sarcasm isn't appreciated. How else does one explain so many talented players failing is such a total, coordinated fashion. Small mistakes and lapses add up. It is easy to be so derisive when you fail to offer an alternate explanation.

BonusCantos
05-13-08, 11:04 PM
When was the last time we won an extra inning game?September 22, 2007.

nyyfanatic85
05-13-08, 11:06 PM
Just be glad we're treading water with A-Rod and Posada out. It could be much, much worse. Like 21-29.

yankeeman61
05-13-08, 11:07 PM
September 22, 2007.

Wow. I was there. That was a marathon rain delayed game started by Hughes. It was a 12-11 final with a GWH by Melky

BonusCantos
05-13-08, 11:08 PM
Just be glad we're treading water with A-Rod and Posada out. It could be much, much worse. Like 21-29.I hope they're not heading there.

yankeeman61
05-13-08, 11:08 PM
Just be glad we're treading water with A-Rod and Posada out. It could be much, much worse. Like 21-29.

There's still a chance to reach that level. Just need to win 2 of the next 10.

teknetic
05-13-08, 11:08 PM
Just be glad we're treading water with A-Rod and Posada out. It could be much, much worse. Like 21-29.

We were actually scoring runs then, our pitching was largely at fault for the slow start (even though the offense was mediocre in May) This year, we've had the bullpen and Wang, only reason we don't have a similar record.

apalradio
05-13-08, 11:09 PM
The derisive comments by some posters attacking the frustration felt by many fans is getting tiresome. The fact is, this team is playing very poorly. There's no denying it. To attack fellow fans for commenting on this defies explanation. Never mind the excuses. We all want the team to play better, but the fact is, they are downright terrible. We have two key hitters below the Mendoza line with a quarter of the season gone. We haven't won a game in which we trail in the late innings. We've given up more runs than we've scored. We haven't put together a decent stretch of games. Our pitching and offense are both in the middle or the lower end of the pack. We're only a game out of last place, which is already embarrassing enough. This team is dreadful, and deserves to be called out for it. Why come down on your fellow fans for reacting to this?

The Q Bomb
05-13-08, 11:19 PM
Two questions:

1) What is in the manual on "How to Compete"? "Hit the ball hard where they ain't"? Or "give 100%". Or "try harder and grit your teeth and run faster." And "feel really bad when you make an out".

2) What does tell Hank tell the arbitrator when the players demand their pay? "Our fans have chosen a team with the biggest payroll; they deserve a winner." "If I pay you more, there is an implicit contractual commitment to be better than a team in Tampa."
rajah, I usually love your posts but I think you are off the mark here. Your sarcasm does not address the premise behind my sarcasm - the team is not competing. There is more to competing than the won-loss record, as all important as that is. When you see your team have 3 batters struck out in one inning on 11 pitches - that gives you the right to question their "competitive spirit". Not if that happens once, but when that happens with much more regularity than the norm and when your at-bats are usually 3 or 4 pitch affairs; when you constantly fail to hit RISP - for 1/3rd of the season; when you score 2 runs in 2 games and have already been shut out 3 times in 1/3rd of the season; when you have scored only 1 run in 3 or 4 games in 1/3rd of the season; when your hitters are batting .100 - .200 points below their career average with 1/3rd of the season gone - fans have the right to question their team's competitive spirit.

As far as Girardi's speech - he is in a very difficult position. I truly feel it will take awhile for him to get comfortable enough to challenge these guys and I also believe he will have to get a bit of a different mix of folks in there to be totally comfortable. It's a very wierd situation/dynamic with The Yankees right now. For this to work, the team needed to get off to a good start. With this bad start, I believe the situation resembles walking on eggshells. Hopefully, if and when the team starts to perform better, it will coalesce more and Girardi's influence will be more evident.

One thing they need to do is fix this roster. I don't like the way the team is constructed right now, at all.

BRNXBMRS
05-14-08, 08:39 AM
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l209/querbiss/FLATLINE.jpg

This is the Yankee offense, amazing Jeter they couldnt get Jeter in from 3rd with one out.

yankeeman61
05-14-08, 08:59 AM
rajah, I usually love your posts but I think you are off the mark here. Your sarcasm does not address the premise behind my sarcasm - the team is not competing. There is more to competing than the won-loss record, as all important as that is. When you see your team have 3 batters struck out in one inning on 11 pitches - that gives you the right to question their "competitive spirit". Not if that happens once, but when that happens with much more regularity than the norm and when your at-bats are usually 3 or 4 pitch affairs; when you constantly fail to hit RISP - for 1/3rd of the season; when you score 2 runs in 2 games and have already been shut out 3 times in 1/3rd of the season; when you have scored only 1 run in 3 or 4 games in 1/3rd of the season; when your hitters are batting .100 - .200 points below their career average with 1/3rd of the season gone - fans have the right to question their team's competitive spirit.

As far as Girardi's speech - he is in a very difficult position. I truly feel it will take awhile for him to get comfortable enough to challenge these guys and I also believe he will have to get a bit of a different mix of folks in there to be totally comfortable. It's a very wierd situation/dynamic with The Yankees right now. For this to work, the team needed to get off to a good start. With this bad start, I believe the situation resembles walking on eggshells. Hopefully, if and when the team starts to perform better, it will coalesce more and Girardi's influence will be more evident.

One thing they need to do is fix this roster. I don't like the way the team is constructed right now, at all.

Q - you make a very good point with Girardi. I think those expecting a major style difference between the Joes have to be a little disappointed thus far. I think you are right that he is probably walking on egg shells with some of the players and trying to ease into the role. Unfortunately for Girardi, this is not Florida, it's NY and it's the Yankees. I think the situation is getting very close for the manager to take the reins and start asserting his leadership. If he doesn't, his team may continue to flounder and they may not be so lucky with Boston continuing to wait for them to get their act together.

I can also see the potential of that 3rd team causing problems. I am not comfortable with the whole "they've come from behind before" theory. This team has some problems and there are more questions than answers. As you pointed out, the roster leaves much to be desired. Ensberg should be released and I would just bring up Gardner right now. This team needs to be energized and they need guys who can help to manufacture a friggin run when they need it. I also think Betemit is obsolete and though I was hoping Duncan would be given more PT to see what he can do, I don't think he is part of the plan. Basically the roster needs an enema but at least a few changes could be made. Hopefully Rasner continues his Aaron Small impression because they really need that stability in the rotation. Who would have thought the pen would be a consistent strength so far? This team has issues. And we need tissues.

ksison
05-14-08, 09:01 AM
yanks are making edwin jackson look like Cy Young

rajah
05-14-08, 02:34 PM
rajah, I usually love your posts but I think you are off the mark here. Your sarcasm does not address the premise behind my sarcasm - the team is not competing. There is more to competing than the won-loss record, as all important as that is. When you see your team have 3 batters struck out in one inning on 11 pitches - that gives you the right to question their "competitive spirit". Not if that happens once, but when that happens with much more regularity than the norm and when your at-bats are usually 3 or 4 pitch affairs; when you constantly fail to hit RISP - for 1/3rd of the season; when you score 2 runs in 2 games and have already been shut out 3 times in 1/3rd of the season; when you have scored only 1 run in 3 or 4 games in 1/3rd of the season; when your hitters are batting .100 - .200 points below their career average with 1/3rd of the season gone - fans have the right to question their team's competitive spirit.

As far as Girardi's speech - he is in a very difficult position. I truly feel it will take awhile for him to get comfortable enough to challenge these guys and I also believe he will have to get a bit of a different mix of folks in there to be totally comfortable. It's a very wierd situation/dynamic with The Yankees right now. For this to work, the team needed to get off to a good start. With this bad start, I believe the situation resembles walking on eggshells. Hopefully, if and when the team starts to perform better, it will coalesce more and Girardi's influence will be more evident.

One thing they need to do is fix this roster. I don't like the way the team is constructed right now, at all.

I think I actually tend to take my own frustration with the team out on other posters who I think are being unfair to someone on the team or to the management of the team. So, I am sure that I was not being fair.

I still disagree, however, with any suggestion that these guys are not trying as hard as they can to compete. They are not hitting with RISP. They are failing to respond to pitchers who challenge them with fast balls in the zone. They are not providing fans with much excitement. But I do not feel that it is because they do not care or are not trying. I think it is because this team without ARod and Posada, especially without Cano and Giambi in gear, is not a particularly good offensive team. This is what I thought at the end of last year, making me feel that ARod's signing was absolutely necessary to provide a bridge to a new offense. In fact, this year has been what it would have been like without ARod, worse really because the Y's would have tried to compensate, perhaps with Lowell.

Anyway, I think that you make an interesting point about Girardi's position.

The Q Bomb
05-14-08, 05:12 PM
I think I actually tend to take my own frustration with the team out on other posters who I think are being unfair to someone on the team or to the management of the team. So, I am sure that I was not being fair.

I still disagree, however, with any suggestion that these guys are not trying as hard as they can to compete. They are not hitting with RISP. They are failing to respond to pitchers who challenge them with fast balls in the zone. They are not providing fans with much excitement. But I do not feel that it is because they do not care or are not trying. I think it is because this team without ARod and Posada, especially without Cano and Giambi in gear, is not a particularly good offensive team. This is what I thought at the end of last year, making me feel that ARod's signing was absolutely necessary to provide a bridge to a new offense. In fact, this year has been what it would have been like without ARod, worse really because the Y's would have tried to compensate, perhaps with Lowell.

Anyway, I think that you make an interesting point about Girardi's position.

I do not think that The Yankees, any of them, are not trying, but trying is not enough. Of course, with all the injuries, their offense is compromised and I'm sure all the batters are trying, in some form or another, to make up for that, but the bottom line is - they must have better at-bats in order to have a chance to win. Better at-bats; better fielding; better baserunning, may not guarantee more wins but they will be more competitive (for lack of a better word) and have a better chance to win.

yankeeman61
05-16-08, 08:04 PM
I do not think that The Yankees, any of them, are not trying, but trying is not enough. Of course, with all the injuries, their offense is compromised and I'm sure all the batters are trying, in some form or another, to make up for that, but the bottom line is - they must have better at-bats in order to have a chance to win. Better at-bats; better fielding; better baserunning, may not guarantee more wins but they will be more competitive (for lack of a better word) and have a better chance to win.

Q - I have a vague recollection of a recount of the 40'-50's Yankees. I think it may have been from Tommy Henrich. Some new player said something like, "Hey we tried our best" after a loss. Everyone jumped all over him. I think Henrich said, "Try??!!!?? Try my ass, we get it done here" Back then WS $$$ was pretty important AND expected.

JDPNYY
05-17-08, 11:21 PM
One thing this team hasn't forgotten is how to stink.

The Q Bomb
05-18-08, 08:32 AM
Q - you make a very good point with Girardi. I think those expecting a major style difference between the Joes have to be a little disappointed thus far. I think you are right that he is probably walking on egg shells with some of the players and trying to ease into the role. Unfortunately for Girardi, this is not Florida, it's NY and it's the Yankees. I think the situation is getting very close for the manager to take the reins and start asserting his leadership. If he doesn't, his team may continue to flounder and they may not be so lucky with Boston continuing to wait for them to get their act together.

I can also see the potential of that 3rd team causing problems. I am not comfortable with the whole "they've come from behind before" theory. This team has some problems and there are more questions than answers. As you pointed out, the roster leaves much to be desired. Ensberg should be released and I would just bring up Gardner right now. This team needs to be energized and they need guys who can help to manufacture a friggin run when they need it. I also think Betemit is obsolete and though I was hoping Duncan would be given more PT to see what he can do, I don't think he is part of the plan. Basically the roster needs an enema but at least a few changes could be made. Hopefully Rasner continues his Aaron Small impression because they really need that stability in the rotation. Who would have thought the pen would be a consistent strength so far? This team has issues. And we need tissues.

I agree with your points about the roster. Giambi is killing this team - not only because he has not hit but the rest of his game is mediocre (defense) to poor (running) so without consistent power to make up for those negatives - he is not only "not helping" the team he is hurting it. The problem is that we do not have anyone to replace him. I'm not a big fan of having folks play out of position so unless The Yanks are ready to commit to Posada as the first baseman, this idea of having Damon, Matsui, or Posada "fill in" at first base is not a solution in my mind. Unfortunately, Duncan has not shown that he can give us more offense than Giambi's meager output. I know he has had very limited and inconsistent playing time but I never felt that he was going to be this great energetic, offensive force that many others seem to envision. I looked at him more like a Shane Spencer type - hot flashes in between mediocrity (or less). Maybe he has to play for a month straight to see if he can be better than that but unfortunately, The Yanks have lost the luxury of doing that because of their dismal last place record in mid-May! So, for all intents and purposes, first base will continue to be a black hole for the rest of the season - and most likely next year as well.

I agree that Ensberg has to go. I was surprised The Yanks signed him in the first place and unfortunately, he has not surprised me by being better at the plate and in the field than I thought. I much prefer Alberto Gonzalez because he is about the same at the plate as Ensberg, without the power possibility, but is a superior fielder and baserunner. I also assume he could improve a bit at the plate and perhaps hit .250. If he can run and bunt - that .250 would be an improvement over Ensberg's .250 - if Ensberg could even get his average up that high.

Now, going back to the title of this thread - I can't tell you how demoralizing it is to realize your team will (most likely) not win a game when they give up 2 or 3 runs in the first or second inning. I can't tell you how deflating it is when you have a 2-1 lead in the 4th inning and the opponents tie the game and you realize the game is just about over. I can't tell you how humiliating it is to realize that other teams can't wait to play The Yankees to 1) end their losing streaks, 2) improve their batting averages, 3) improve their ERAs, 4) brag that they made The "Almighty" Yankees look like @#$^&*! Like another forum posted somewhere, if Kei Igawa were on another team - he would beat us. The minute Damon was thrown out at the plate in the 4th inning yesterday, even though The Yanks still had a 2-0 lead, I felt they were going to lose. Can you imagine that? In the 4th inning, with your team winning, to be worried about losing? Just a few years ago, if The Yanks were down by 3 in the 9th you felt we could still win. The thing is - so did those players.

I'm really tired of hearing these guys saying they 'know they are better than this", and they "know they will start hitting soon", etc. They don't know any such thing. I can deal with the W-L record; I can even deal with The Yankees being in last place (at least I can deal with that in May) but I can NOT deal with the desultory play and the seeming acceptance of losing this team has evidenced this season. I cannot tell you how upsetting yesterday's loss to The Mets (who I hate even more than Boston) was. This team deserves to be roundly booed (not individual players but as a team) - not by spoiled fans who have never known anything but post season play, but by knowlegable fans who know that their team is not competing and they are not getting value for their $95 seats.

yankeeman61
05-18-08, 09:17 AM
I agree with your points about the roster. Giambi is killing this team - not only because he has not hit but the rest of his game is mediocre (defense) to poor (running) so without consistent power to make up for those negatives - he is not only "not helping" the team he is hurting it. The problem is that we do not have anyone to replace him. I'm not a big fan of having folks play out of position so unless The Yanks are ready to commit to Posada as the first baseman, this idea of having Damon, Matsui, or Posada "fill in" at first base is not a solution in my mind. Unfortunately, Duncan has not shown that he can give us more offense than Giambi's meager output. I know he has had very limited and inconsistent playing time but I never felt that he was going to be this great energetic, offensive force that many others seem to envision. I looked at him more like a Shane Spencer type - hot flashes in between mediocrity (or less). Maybe he has to play for a month straight to see if he can be better than that but unfortunately, The Yanks have lost the luxury of doing that because of their dismal last place record in mid-May! So, for all intents and purposes, first base will continue to be a black hole for the rest of the season - and most likely next year as well.

I agree that Ensberg has to go. I was surprised The Yanks signed him in the first place and unfortunately, he has not surprised me by being better at the plate and in the field than I thought. I much prefer Alberto Gonzalez because he is about the same at the plate as Ensberg, without the power possibility, but is a superior fielder and baserunner. I also assume he could improve a bit at the plate and perhaps hit .250. If he can run and bunt - that .250 would be an improvement over Ensberg's .250 - if Ensberg could even get his average up that high.

Now, going back to the title of this thread - I can't tell you how demoralizing it is to realize your team will (most likely) not win a game when they give up 2 or 3 runs in the first or second inning. I can't tell you how deflating it is when you have a 2-1 lead in the 4th inning and the opponents tie the game and you realize the game is just about over. I can't tell you how humiliating it is to realize that other teams can't wait to play The Yankees to 1) end their losing streaks, 2) improve their batting averages, 3) improve their ERAs, 4) brag that they made The "Almighty" Yankees look like @#$^&*! Like another forum posted somewhere, if Kei Igawa were on another team - he would beat us. The minute Damon was thrown out at the plate in the 4th inning yesterday, even though The Yanks still had a 2-0 lead, I felt they were going to lose. Can you imagine that? In the 4th inning, with your team winning, to be worried about losing? Just a few years ago, if The Yanks were down by 3 in the 9th you felt we could still win. The thing is - so did those players.

I'm really tired of hearing these guys saying they 'know they are better than this", and they "know they will start hitting soon", etc. They don't know any such thing. I can deal with the W-L record; I can even deal with The Yankees being in last place (at least I can deal with that in May) but I can NOT deal with the desultory play and the seeming acceptance of losing this team has evidenced this season. I cannot tell you how upsetting yesterday's loss to The Mets (who I hate even more than Boston) was. This team deserves to be roundly booed (not individual players but as a team) - not by spoiled fans who have never known anything but post season play, but by knowlegable fans who know that their team is not competing and they are not getting value for their $95 seats.

This pretty much says it all. For those of us who have lived through the crappy teams of the mid-late 60's through the mid-70's, followed up by most of the 80's into the early 90's, we recognize this team for what it is. With this team, it is about more than ARod & Posada getting hurt, or having to be patient with struggling rookie pitchers. I don't care how much season is left. This team is poorly constructed. We have shallow depth (certainly nowhere near 40-deep) little speed, slowing bats and amazingly bad plate discipline for a team which has been lauded for its "good eye" for so many years. This team just can't seem to execute many of the basic fundamentals of the game and can't get a big hit to save their own skins. These aren't the signs of a team in a slump which will suddenly snap out of it and go on a huge run to take the AL East. These are the signs of a team in transition that will hover near .500 all season long. If there is still little life by the trading deadline they better become sellers so they can start plugging in a few pieces for 2009. Before this season started I thought they would be on the cusp of the WC and could go either way. The way the league has been so far they might still sneak in there! But I don't anticipate it will be pretty.

Jersey Yankee
05-18-08, 09:26 AM
I think that yesterday's biggest mistake was going with a struggling Andy Pettitte, rather than staying with Rasner, who was on a roll. Had it been a double header, I could've understood using Pettitte, but why choose the guy who hasn't won in a month over the one who's got the wind to his back?

I also can't understand why you'd keep putting Farns out there. He's the Yankee version of Aaron Heilman.

With Rasner and anyone else in relief, I believe that we could've won 4-3 or 4-2.

Also, in a close game, I would consider bringing in Mo with 2 outs in the 8th if there's a RISP. I know that people love Joba, but you've gotta seal the deal, not worry too much about who's on the mound.

The Q Bomb
05-18-08, 09:38 AM
[/b]...This team is poorly constructed. We have shallow depth (certainly nowhere near 40-deep) little speed, slowing bats and amazingly bad plate discipline for a team which has been lauded for its "good eye" for so many years. This team just can't seem to execute many of the basic fundamentals of the game and can't get a big hit to save their own skins. These aren't the signs of a team in a slump which will suddenly snap out of it and go on a huge run to take the AL East. These are the signs of a team in transition that will hover near .500 all season long. If there is still little life by the trading deadline they better become sellers so they can start plugging in a few pieces for 2009. Before this season started I thought they would be on the cusp of the WC and could go either way. The way the league has been so far they might still sneak in there! But I don't anticipate it will be pretty. Unfortunately, this really sums up where this team is right now and the outlook for the rest of the season.


I think that yesterday's biggest mistake was going with a struggling Andy Pettitte, rather than staying with Rasner, who was on a roll. Had it been a double header, I could've understood using Pettitte, but why choose the guy who hasn't won in a month over the one who's got the wind to his back?
I agree they should have gone with Rasner - not because Andy has been struggling, because I'm confident he can turn it around at anytime, but because I don't like to tempt fate. If Rasner was set to pitch Friday, just move the rotation back a day, as is. Now you've not only had a poor start from Andy, you have messed up Rasner's schedule and can only hope that the effects of that are not too negative. To me, it's a classic case of micro-managing. (And, correct me if I'm wrong - I think this was a Cashman decision - not Girardi's.)

yankeeman61
05-18-08, 09:43 AM
I think that yesterday's biggest mistake was going with a struggling Andy Pettitte, rather than staying with Rasner, who was on a roll. Had it been a double header, I could've understood using Pettitte, but why choose the guy who hasn't won in a month over the one who's got the wind to his back?

I also can't understand why you'd keep putting Farns out there. He's the Yankee version of Aaron Heilman.

With Rasner and anyone else in relief, I believe that we could've won 4-3 or 4-2.

Also, in a close game, I would consider bringing in Mo with 2 outs in the 8th if there's a RISP. I know that people love Joba, but you've gotta seal the deal, not worry too much about who's on the mound.

If you are going to rely on Rasner more than Pettitte, this team is in bigger trouble than we thought. Ras has done a nice job in his two starts, so should we start calling him Big Game Ras? You keep the proven vets on their regular rest and go with the guy with the longer history of success. He gave the Yankees a QS. Farns was due for a bad outing and that's what sealed the loss. The offense continues to be abysmal.

yankeeman61
05-18-08, 11:00 PM
I hope tonight's debacle is rock bottom. Wow :(

apalradio
05-18-08, 11:06 PM
I hope tonight's debacle is rock bottom. Wow :(Trouble is, every time you think you've hit rock bottom, it will continue to get worse. I honestly don't think we're even close to rock bottom yet. I hate to say it, but it will continue to get worse before it gets better.

IMissBillyM
05-18-08, 11:10 PM
How can we get any worse?...3 hits?..Another worthless effort by our offense. OH but wait, we were forced to face a hot pitcher tonight.dang it! We'll be ok when we start facing other team's # 5 pitchers, pitching on 2 days rest.

Ericas367
05-19-08, 10:24 PM
How can we get any worse?...3 hits?..Another worthless effort by our offense. OH but wait, we were forced to face a hot pitcher tonight.dang it! We'll be ok when we start facing other team's # 5 pitchers, pitching on 2 days rest.

Somebody is going to pitch a no-hitter against us...:(

ksison
05-21-08, 11:22 AM
Somebody is going to pitch a no-hitter against us...:(

Which pitcher from the Red Sox staff?

R.V.47
05-21-08, 03:38 PM
I think that first inning last night showed why this is a bad team. OK Jeter had a bad error but I think a good team rebounds from that, instead the yankees completely folded.

27IsNext
05-25-08, 04:40 PM
To answer your question, yes. :)

nnysiny
05-25-08, 05:09 PM
theyre looking like the old Yankees right now

sweet_lou_14
05-25-08, 06:09 PM
It might be tempting to dismiss this weekend sweep because the opponent has such a terrible record. But the Yankees played three great games, pummeling a top-flight starter on Friday and putting up some fantastic at-bats against a quality closer to pull off today's comeback. This was a win worthy of any of the great Yankee teams of recent memory. And the kind of win that seemed completely beyond the team's ability earlier in the season.

Definitely one to celebrate!

The Q Bomb
06-01-08, 06:00 PM
Another case of the team playing uninspired baseball today. It's not a crime to lose 5-1 (well, maybe it is - for The Yankees), but it's damn discouraging to see the team making out on the first or second pitch; seeing the clean-up hitter come up empty handed in the worst way (a strikeout and a pop-up) with an RBI opportunity on hand. It's these uninspired, lackluster performances, that really concern me - and these occur against teams that are less than the cream of the crop competition wise. We really seem to have fallen from an elite team to a good team the last couple of years.

27IsNext
06-01-08, 07:17 PM
Somehow I doubt you'd tell any of these players to their face that they're playing "uninspired."

yankeeman61
06-02-08, 10:08 PM
Poor execution tonight and yesterday as well. So many chances yet failing to capatilize on their opportunities. The Twins simply outplayed them in the last 2 games of the series. The Twins don't have the names but they make the most of what they have. Can the Yankees claim this?

Yankees47
06-02-08, 10:11 PM
I am not simply saying this because we lost but I just dont think this team has the right players to win this year. I'm not predicting that we finish in last place or anything like that but I dont see this team winning 90 games this year and I think thats what it will take to get into the playoffs. And let me get this off my chest, I am sick and tired of Bobby Abreu and his lackadasical style of play. He cant play RF because he is afraid of the wall. Any thoughts?

Reed Rothchild
06-02-08, 10:31 PM
Poor execution tonight and yesterday as well. So many chances yet failing to capatilize on their opportunities. The Twins simply outplayed them in the last 2 games of the series. The Twins don't have the names but they make the most of what they have. Can the Yankees claim this?

Yep. The Twins have made their living with their few superstarts and an ability to situational hit and properly execute baseball situations. Exactly opposite of the Yanks who cannot execute elementary baseball situations against inferior competition.

apalradio
06-03-08, 06:15 AM
It really seems like the team needs an overhaul. This will take some time.

jpao89
06-03-08, 02:57 PM
It really seems like the team needs an overhaul. This will take some time.

Yes it will and some patience. I would be satisified with not making the playoffs a few years so long as they were building, i.e. giving young players the chance to develop. I will not, however, be happy if they try to compete the Hank way, i.e. by trading the youth for overthehill vets.

OzarkFan
06-04-08, 10:20 PM
yanks are making edwin jackson look like Cy Young
...and tonight the Sawx made him look like... Edwin Jackson. :(

matt2351
06-04-08, 11:31 PM
It really seems like the team needs an overhaul. This will take some time.

Agreed. Even after the win tonight, I still think they need to tear this thing apart. The Yanks should have a good old fashioned fire sale at the deadline and keep building for the future. Unfortunately for us they would never do this when they are moving into a new $1 billion stadium next year.

matt2351
06-04-08, 11:32 PM
Yes it will and some patience. I would be satisified with not making the playoffs a few years so long as they were building, i.e. giving young players the chance to develop. I will not, however, be happy if they try to compete the Hank way, i.e. by trading the youth for overthehill vets.

Don't you mean the George way that hank is trying to bring back?

The Q Bomb
06-05-08, 11:08 PM
That is our season in a nutshell. Average pitchers look like Cy Young against us. Guys looking for their first homerun of the year in June (Justin Morneau) - get it against us. Teams who've lost 10 of 12 take series from us. Ordinary teams (like Baltimore) play like the 27 Yanks against us and go back to being the plain old, last place Baltimore Orioles against Boston. Teams used to dread facing The Yankees - now they seem to look forward to it.

Even today's win was really a terrible game all around for The Yanks - except for the end result. The error by Melky; Cano's failure to execute the bunt; Wang's implosion yet again; Farnsworth giving up the run in the top of the 9th (or 8th); the two easy, easy outs in the bottom of the 9th. Again, more than the win - loss record, I'm worried and disgusted by the poor execution and all around bad play by this team so far - and that's giving them some slack because of all the injuries.

groovitude
06-05-08, 11:44 PM
That is our season in a nutshell. Average pitchers look like Cy Young against us. Guys looking for their first homerun of the year in June (Justin Morneau)
That was Joe Mauer.

That said, your points are no less valid.

dougj1
06-07-08, 03:54 AM
This team needs major changes since there are problems in pitching, hitting, defense, bench....The only way is to get a new GM.

Vin
06-07-08, 04:15 AM
We need younger hitters who have great eye, can hit for power, gets on base a lot and consistent. Having a Youkilis or Manny like hitter in the lineup can make a big difference. I can dream.

The Q Bomb
06-07-08, 07:11 AM
That was Joe Mauer.

That said, your points are no less valid. Sorry about that - I always mix those two up.

Last night is another example perfect for this thread. We lose to a team who hasn't won on the road in - how long? Teams, pitchers, batters, even lackluster fans - get rejuvenated against The Yankees. It's a damn shame. Last night's game was another abysmal effort on all parts except Rasner. Kansas City can't win for losing - except against us!

yankeeman61
06-07-08, 09:28 AM
No Mahhbles

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6452/tanakaqi5.jpg

Just when your wishful thinking gets you to a place where you believe it's possible this team has turned the corner, or is on its way, or has reached this year's "HA!" moment, they come up with another flat performance. When Rasner leaves it all on the field and gives you EIGHT (8) solid innings with an extended PC, you HAVE to win that game! I was as PO'd as any other Yankee fan on that horrible check swing call. But they lost that game well before they were in that position of needing a 2-out hit in the 8th inning.

b_joseph
06-07-08, 05:02 PM
Ofcourse

Jace
06-07-08, 05:02 PM
has this board forgotten how to MAKE APPLICABLE THREADS?

yankeeman61
06-24-08, 09:28 PM
has this board forgotten how to MAKE APPLICABLE THREADS?

The thread title sure as hell applied to tonight's game. This team was not ready to compete from the first inning on.

R.V.47
06-24-08, 09:29 PM
I had a feeling this thread would make a comeback after tonights game. Cant say its not deserving, losing in this manner to the Pirates is inexcusable.

yankeeman61
06-24-08, 10:04 PM
I had a feeling this thread would make a comeback after tonights game. Cant say its not deserving, losing in this manner to the Pirates is inexcusable.

And on the other end of the spectrum, the Red Sox looked flat against the D-Backs, but were able to keep the game at 4-1, then put together some tough AB's and now have tied the game with 2 outs in the 8th, with the go ahead run on 2B. That's how you compete....ooops they just got the go ahead run. Yep...glaring difference in the way these two rivals compete.

The Q Bomb
06-27-08, 05:16 PM
And this damn team double forgets how to compete against The Mets and The Red Sox. I'm so disgusted I'd like to tear the pinstripes off all 25 of them right now! Let them go on the field naked!

P.S. How many "rock bottom" games have we had this year - 4?

dogg
06-27-08, 09:21 PM
And this damn team double forgets how to compete against The Mets and The Red Sox. I'm so disgusted I'd like to tear the pinstripes off all 25 of them right now! Let them go on the field naked!

P.S. How many "rock bottom" games have we had this year - 4?

getting swept by the mutts at YS and lit up in the process is an absolute disgrace...in no way can this bunch compete against the sux. I hope the FO places an urgent emphasis on signing their high-ceiling draft picks... this current collection at the ML level is borderline unwatchable.

Pinstripe Pride23
06-27-08, 09:50 PM
Can't stand the title of this thread. In a word - no.

b_joseph
06-27-08, 09:53 PM
Tonight would show that they havent forgotten. Competing has never been an issue for me.

yankeeman61
06-27-08, 10:06 PM
Tonight would show that they havent forgotten. Competing has never been an issue for me.

I think they are bipolar

The Q Bomb
07-03-08, 10:25 PM
This is just unconscienable! This team, from the vaunted Derek (2008 Double Play King) Jeter; to Alex (harmless pop-up or strike out with RISP) Rodriguez; to Melky (hit like a minor leaguer) Cabrera; to Phil (I wet the bed) Hughes and Ian (I wet the bed even more) Kennedy - they all don't know how to compete. The sad thing is - if they want to learn how they should look at some of the Red Sox players (Ugh!). Forget the stars - look at Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youkilis, Lester, whoever they seem to stick in their line-up - they may not have the best numbers (although, actually a lot of them do have good numbers) but they come to play. They don't look like deer in the headlights when they are losing; they don't come up short more often than not in big situations - at least not against The Yankees. They come to play. The Red Sox look better losing than we look winning.

If George Steinbrenner were "OK" he wold have publically lambasted this team and probably offered the fans a refund for the @#$%^ they have paid to watch this season. Sheesh! The Mets look better than us!

NHYank
07-03-08, 10:34 PM
This team is tough to watch. They packed it in after the 1st inning. Girardi looks pissed off, and he should be.

Torre Must Go
07-03-08, 10:53 PM
From the Jeter error on, this team just didn't have it going in any facet of the game. Given the payroll, the track record of these players, the place in the standings, the team we were playing, that we were home, it's just inexcusable to have this type of performance.

I'm happy Girardi ripped this Yankees team a new one. They deserve it and better improve. As fans, we should get and expect better than this.

TheJobaRules
07-03-08, 10:56 PM
It's never a good sign when this thread still has life in July.

The Q Bomb
07-03-08, 11:00 PM
From the Jeter error on, this team just didn't have it going in any facet of the game. Given the payroll, the track record of these players, the place in the standings, the team we were playing, that we were home, it's just inexcusable to have this type of performance.

I'm happy Girardi ripped this Yankees team a new one. They deserve it and better improve. As fans, we should get and expect better than this. Big deal - Girardi's tantrum won't change a thing. What could he possibly tell them that they don't know already - that they stink?

I'll be happy if the damn players just show some remorse after a game and say something like, "I know we're letting our fans down.." etc. I'm so sick of seeing Jeter saunter back to the bench after striking out looking like "that shouldn't have happened" or seeing biting his lips and looking at some imaginary god in the stands after popping up; of seeing someone practically having to point out where homeplate is to Melky. I'd rather watch Horace Clarke!

NelsonMuntz
07-04-08, 12:37 PM
I don't think the team's problems have anything to do with "competing" or lack thereof. Does anyone really think Jeter, Abreu et al go up to the plate without the intent of getting on base?

The problem is a troublesome combination of bad luck, bad approaches (i.e, lack of patience), and decline due to age/injury.

The Q Bomb
07-04-08, 12:56 PM
I don't think the team's problems have anything to do with "competing" or lack thereof. Does anyone really think Jeter, Abreu et al go up to the plate without the intent of getting on base?

The problem is a troublesome combination of bad luck, bad approaches (i.e, lack of patience), and decline due to age/injury. Nelson, if you read any of my posts, I'm not suggesting that any Yankee player doesn't try hard and give each at-bat his all. What I am saying is that they don't have that, whatever you want to call it, focus, cohesiveness, execution skills, to win games. I have a lot of difficulty putting it into words but another forumer, on (I think) the "Offense ..." thread, pointed out how The Red Sox now have the kind of players (Youkilis, Pedroia, Lowell) that we had on our championship teams and I knew exactly what he meant. They not only try hard, as our guys do, but they seem to "get it", get the big picture or what they have to do in an at-bat or on the basepaths and our guys don't seem to get it 90% of the time.

A perfect example is A-Rod. I'm not picking on him but his example stands out most - I have seen him time and time again, come up to the plate with the tying or go-ahead run in scoring position and he swings for the fences and strikes out or pops-up. Now, I know he is paid, to hit homeruns, but in those situations he needs to concentrate on just hitting the ball hard - somewhere. He has enough natural power, even in his mid-thirties, to hit it out when he does that. If he just tried to drive the ball, he would have a better chance of getting a hit to drive in a run and a better chance to hit a homerun; instead, he over swings and more often than not the result is a pop-up or strikeout. Of course, if he swung for the fences and actually hit a homerun, then, even if the approach were wrong, since the results were good, it wouldn't be an issue - but the results are not good and it is an issue. (On the other hand, he does have an uncanny ability to steal a base when it is most necessary. Give credit where credit is due - except his paycheck is based more on driving in runs than stealing bases.)

It's not only A-Rod either. I see all these guys have the wrong approach at times; at other times (like Jeter's DPs) it's just lack of ability.

Whatever, it is very disheartening to watch Yankee baseball these days - and this state of affairs has existed for years, IMO. I know we've been in the playoffs every year - and I do credit this team for playing with a lot of heart the past couple of seasons to be able to overcome more than their share of injuries and overcome very poor starts; however, I don't think anyone can argue, injuries not withstanding, this team has underperformed in each of the last 5 years.

apalradio
07-04-08, 01:17 PM
Nelson, if you read any of my posts, I'm not suggesting that any Yankee player doesn't try hard and give each at-bat his all. What I am saying is that they don't have that, whatever you want to call it, focus, cohesiveness, execution skills, to win games. I have a lot of difficulty putting it into words but another forumer, on (I think) the "Offense ..." thread, pointed out how The Red Sox now have the kind of players (Youkilis, Pedroia, Lowell) that we had on our championship teams and I knew exactly what he meant. They not only try hard, as our guys do, but they seem to "get it", get the big picture or what they have to do in an at-bat or on the basepaths and our guys don't seem to get it 90% of the time.

A perfect example is A-Rod. I'm not picking on him but his example stands out most - I have seen him time and time again, come up to the plate with the tying or go-ahead run in scoring position and he swings for the fences and strikes out or pops-up. Now, I know he is paid, to hit homeruns, but in those situations he needs to concentrate on just hitting the ball hard - somewhere. He has enough natural power, even in his mid-thirties, to hit it out when he does that. If he just tried to drive the ball, he would have a better chance of getting a hit to drive in a run and a better chance to hit a homerun; instead, he over swings and more often than not the result is a pop-up or strikeout. Of course, if he swung for the fences and actually hit a homerun, then, even if the approach were wrong, since the results were good, it wouldn't be an issue - but the results are not good and it is an issue. (On the other hand, he does have an uncanny ability to steal a base when it is most necessary. Give credit where credit is due - except his paycheck is based more on driving in runs than stealing bases.)

It's not only A-Rod either. I see all these guys have the wrong approach at times; at other times (like Jeter's DPs) it's just lack of ability.

Whatever, it is very disheartening to watch Yankee baseball these days - and this state of affairs has existed for years, IMO. I know we've been in the playoffs every year - and I do credit this team for playing with a lot of heart the past couple of seasons to be able to overcome more than their share of injuries and overcome very poor starts; however, I don't think anyone can argue, injuries not withstanding, this team has underperformed in each of the last 5 years.So much of what you say is right on the mark. About ARod, though, it's hard to overanalyze and critique a guy's swing when it has elevated him to historic proportions. Sure, I think we'd all like him to drive in even more runs, and pick the spots where we'd like him to do it. But I guess I can live with the numbers he does put up on his climb to the Hall of Fame.

walesave
07-04-08, 01:31 PM
I like this question because I have always believed that most fans who say they want to win actually are happy when their team is competitive. Consistent winning occurs when a competitive team also has talent. This team has lost it's ability to compete. I believe each player is giving his all every game but collectively they are adrift. This is on Joe G. to fix.

The Q Bomb
07-04-08, 03:50 PM
... I believe each player is giving his all every game but collectively they are adrift. This is on Joe G. to fix. THAT is what I was trying to convey (obviously unsuccessfully). They are not functioning as a unit or a TEAM. And I agree, Girardi is the one to fix it.

2JAY
07-04-08, 04:33 PM
I am not convinced that Girardi can fix it. We have heard the same rants all season long and nothing seems to change. I just do not think that the 08 Yankees are a playoff team and that .500 is about where they will stay all year.

27IsNext
07-04-08, 10:22 PM
Numbers as of July 4:
**Johnny Damon .319/.387/.470/.856
Derek Jeter .282/.346/.389/.734
Bobby Abreu .277/.347/.445/.792
**Alex Rodriguez .319/.402/.597/.999
Jason Giambi .263/.397/.550/.947
**Jorge Posada .281/.361/.446/.807
**Hideki Matsui .323/.404/.458/.862
Robinson Cano .248/.284/.362/.646
Melky Cabrera .246/.311/.352/.662
Wilson Betemit .256/.284/.456/.740
Brett Gardner .100/.182/.100/.282

**Means they have missed or likely will miss significant playing time due to injuries.

It's not that the team can't "play well collectively," the majority of the lineup is simply either having mediocre or downright awful years at the plate, and a significant chunk has dealt with injuries.

The Q Bomb
09-13-08, 10:11 PM
At least one guy on this team still remembers how to COMPETE - Derek Jeter. What a surprise - not!

-tz
09-13-08, 10:26 PM
At least one guy on this team still remembers how to COMPETE - Derek Jeter. What a surprise - not!Derek Jeter? Don't you mean "Derek (2008 Double Play King) Jeter"? :confused:

The Q Bomb
09-14-08, 08:15 AM
Derek Jeter? Don't you mean "Derek (2008 Double Play King) Jeter"? :confused: Yes, that's exactly who I mean. No one killed him more than me over those double plays. I used to tell my husband, "If Damon can't hit a double, I don't want him to get on first base - it will just result in another double play by Jeter."

My point is that Jeter does not look like he's out there waiting for the game and the season to end. He is the one player out there looking like he's playing to win that game. Whether he has the skills and abilities to do it is another argument.

montrealer
09-14-08, 08:30 AM
Yep..........and short of some wholesale changes you`ll get the same team next year a year older.......

mrmike98
09-14-08, 08:50 AM
Yep..........and short of some wholesale changes you`ll get the same team next year a year older.......

Hey 514, I thought a managerial change would fix whatever ails this team.

JL25and3
09-14-08, 09:13 AM
Hey 514, I thought a managerial change would fix whatever ails this team.Nah, it won't fix everything that's wrong with the Yankees.

Of course, it might help...

JL25and3
09-14-08, 09:21 AM
Yes, that's exactly who I mean. No one killed him more than me over those double plays. I used to tell my husband, "If Damon can't hit a double, I don't want him to get on first base - it will just result in another double play by Jeter."

My point is that Jeter does not look like he's out there waiting for the game and the season to end. He is the one player out there looking like he's playing to win that game. Whether he has the skills and abilities to do it is another argument.I'm still trying to figure out which Yankees have supposedly rolled over and quit. Maybe Cano, though he's been so lost all year it would be hard to tell. Aside from him - maybe - who else?

Giambi is brutal in the field and has had a bad year with RISP, but he plays hard. Jeter, Damon, Abreu? Um, no. Nady, Molina, Pudge? Not as far as I can tell. And say what you like about A-Rod, the man busts his tail out there, all game, every game.

The pitchers? No.

So who are the quitters supposed to be?

apalradio
09-14-08, 11:36 AM
I'm still trying to figure out which Yankees have supposedly rolled over and quit. Maybe Cano, though he's been so lost all year it would be hard to tell. Aside from him - maybe - who else?

Giambi is brutal in the field and has had a bad year with RISP, but he plays hard. Jeter, Damon, Abreu? Um, no. Nady, Molina, Pudge? Not as far as I can tell. And say what you like about A-Rod, the man busts his tail out there, all game, every game.

The pitchers? No.

So who are the quitters supposed to be?Interesting question. The problem may not be as much with individual quitters, as it is with not having enough winners. Back in the golden years of the late '90's, the team was filled with leaders who all seemed to contribute with key hits, key plays, and key pitching performances. Today's team seems to have that deer in the headlights look all too often. I don't think it's because any individual players have necessarily quit. There just don't seem to be enough guys who know how to pull games out of the fire and win with consistency. Leadership like that from the players can have a positive effect on the team as a whole, and the current crop doesn't have that. In addition, there are some glaring talent gaps here and there.

dkman
09-14-08, 12:16 PM
Interesting question. The problem may not be as much with individual quitters, as it is with not having enough winners. Back in the golden years of the late '90's, the team was filled with leaders who all seemed to contribute with key hits, key plays, and key pitching performances. Today's team seems to have that deer in the headlights look all too often. I don't think it's because any individual players have necessarily quit. There just don't seem to be enough guys who know how to pull games out of the fire and win with consistency. Leadership like that from the players can have a positive effect on the team as a whole, and the current crop doesn't have that. In addition, there are some glaring talent gaps here and there.

It seems that way because the team isn't very good. Like you said, they lack talent in key areas. They aren't scoring enough runs and the pitching isn't good enough to make up for it. If the team had scored 900+ runs like they did last year, the 2008 Yankees would have World Series aspirations. But when you lose, everyone looks flat. Win a game 6-5 and your guys are playing with fire in their belly, lose a game 6-5 and they just didn't want it as much as the other team. At least, that's how the newspapers will tell the story.

JL25and3
09-14-08, 12:43 PM
Interesting question. The problem may not be as much with individual quitters, as it is with not having enough winners. Back in the golden years of the late '90's, the team was filled with leaders who all seemed to contribute with key hits, key plays, and key pitching performances. Today's team seems to have that deer in the headlights look all too often. I don't think it's because any individual players have necessarily quit. There just don't seem to be enough guys who know how to pull games out of the fire and win with consistency. Leadership like that from the players can have a positive effect on the team as a whole, and the current crop doesn't have that. In addition, there are some glaring talent gaps here and there.

That last sentence says a whole lot.

The rest of it...no disrespect intended, but I'm not even sure I know what that means. They all "know how to pull games out of the fire and win with consistency" - by hitting, pitching and fielding. This year they haven't been doing those things well enough overall.

apalradio
09-14-08, 06:11 PM
That last sentence says a whole lot.

The rest of it...no disrespect intended, but I'm not even sure I know what that means. They all "know how to pull games out of the fire and win with consistency" - by hitting, pitching and fielding. This year they haven't been doing those things well enough overall.A bit of a subjective observation, I'll admit. But I'd use Brosius as an example. Not the best third baseman in the game during his playing days, by any stretch. Yet we still remember his clutch hits, passionate play, and winning attitude. Other guys like Leyritz, Curtis, O'Neill, Strawberry, Girardi, these guys could come off the bench and change the course of a game in ways that the current bench cannot, and even the everyday lineup can't seem to. That's all it means.