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yanksphan
02-18-08, 09:01 AM
http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-gaming/article/2008-02/statheads-speak-derek-jeter-you-stink


Once upon a time, the only fielding statistic listed on the back of baseball cards was fielding percentage, a simple calculation of the number of assists and putouts a player records divided by total chances. But this only tells you how well players handled the balls that they were able to put a glove on, giving pretty much zero insight into how much ground a player covers at his position and, ultimately, his impact on the outcome of the game.

Enter Spatial Aggregate Fielding Evaluation, or SAFE, a new yard stick for fielding developed by professor Shane Jensen and his stat-junkie colleagues at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and presented today at the AAAS Meetings in Boston. In short, Jensen examined every hit from the 2002-2005 baseball seasons and developed a formula that spit out the probability of the average player at each position recording an out on a batted ball. He then compared this to individual players' stats and determined how many runs each player's fielding performance either saved or caused.

and for those complaining about Giambi's defense...


First basemen, it turns out are relatively inconsequential when it comes to fielding balls. On average, the best first basemen will only save their team one or two runs over the course of the season; the very worst only cough up five.

edwardthomas34
02-18-08, 09:07 AM
http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-gaming/article/2008-02/statheads-speak-derek-jeter-you-stink



and for those complaining about Giambi's defense...
David eckstein for SS.GET IT DONE CASH.

yanksphan
02-18-08, 09:10 AM
The methodology can be found here:

http://stat.wharton.upenn.edu/~stjensen/research/safe.html

hardrain
02-18-08, 09:15 AM
more fuel for the fire--he's a horrible defensive shortstop. we should all know that by now.

yanksphan
02-18-08, 09:20 AM
Looking at the bottom of each positional list, we find Enrique Wilson, Bernie Williams and Jeter.

Sheffield, Matsui, Damon and Cano also find themselves in the bottom 10 - although for Cano, it's just the 05 season being averaged out amongst 3 years...so slightly misleading.

Man we had some rough years...

justinvarnes
02-18-08, 09:25 AM
http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-gaming/article/2008-02/statheads-speak-derek-jeter-you-stink



and for those complaining about Giambi's defense...


A note on the 1B argument: Anyone who watched most the NYY games last year should remember how often Doug M. made GREAT plays that would have cost the team alot more than 1 or 2 runs a season.

Likewise, we all saw Giambi give away 3 runs in one game at 1B.

Take that for whatever you think it's worth, but to me it shows that just last year by me watching ONE team it was easy to disprove the 1B theory. Of course, maybe this year will be different.

Pinstripe Pride23
02-18-08, 09:58 AM
more fuel for the fire--he's a horrible defensive shortstop. we should all know that by now.

Jeter's a bad defensive shortstop?? Newsflash material here. First I've heard of it.

b_joseph
02-18-08, 10:24 AM
So according to various fielding experts......Jeter is awful, Alex is below average, Matsui is below average as is Abreu.
Cano is average, Melky is average, Damon is average.

Yet after all of that. We commited the 6th least errors in the Majors last year and had the 8th best fielding % in the Majors last year.


I do love me those individual fielding stats!!!!!

yanksphan
02-18-08, 10:26 AM
Perhaps if you read them more carefully, they would make more sense to you.

Where does it say Alex is average? The context for Robby is flawed as 1 season is getting averaged over 3.

Damon and Matsui are well below average - you don't need a fielding statistic to tell you that.

Just because previous metrics had their flaws (as does this one) - doesn't mean you can't take something of value away from it.

b_joseph
02-18-08, 10:33 AM
I've read on numerous places that Alex is considered an average 3rd baseman.

All the experts love to tell us how Cano is average at 2nd.


At the end of the day...Our guys are not spectacular, but they make enough plays to enable our team to be successful.
And considering how many contact pitchers we've had and have. They have done a good job.


Plus..anyone with a set of eyes knows that Jeter isnt the best at fielding his position.
So instead of using Jeter's name as a way to create a buzz for one's self. Maybe they should come up with something new.

yanksphan
02-18-08, 10:38 AM
Sorry - thought you were referring to this article specifically regarding those players. I should read more carefully. :)

I don't think the casual fan realizes how bad Jeter is. Watch this thread in a couple days - you'll see Yankee fans themselves mentioning jump throws, the Gold Gloves, the flip play, or the dive into the seats.

Imagine the perception of the fan who only sees him on the cover of video games and Gatorade commercials.

Since95
02-18-08, 10:43 AM
This whole defensive issue is way overblown.

yanksphan
02-18-08, 10:47 AM
This whole defensive issue is way overblown.

Remember that next time you hear "Ground ball up the middle....past a diving Jeter and through for a basehit!" ;)

StatenIslandYankee
02-18-08, 10:59 AM
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ....... :boring:

Retire21
02-18-08, 11:04 AM
Remember that next time you hear "Ground ball up the middle....past a diving Jeter and through for a basehit!" ;)

Statistics aside, saying Jeter is a bad "fielder" is a bit misleading. He has soft hands and a strong arm at short; the "fielding" part he is fine on.

Where he is rough is going to his left. Anything near the bag at second he is not getting to- therefore, his range is not very good.

I think sometimes people pile on Jeter because he's had so much success. Is he the best SS in the league? No. Did he deserve the 3 Gold Gloves? Probably not. But I have a hard time believing he is the worst SS in the league defensively. If you factor in his offense, he gives you more value than most in MLB. Factor in his salary and he's a bargain.......uh, nevermind. :)

YASS
02-18-08, 11:07 AM
Regardless of individual stats, overall, the Yankees were moderately above average defensively based on results. Their defensive efficiency rating was 5th in the AL and 14th in the major leagues.

yankeeman61
02-18-08, 11:11 AM
Yay!!!! Another "Jeter stinks" thread!!!!!! :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

Another stat to prove the case!!!!!


I swear, sometimes it seems like overnight the Yankees and Red Sox swapped a portion of its fan base. Maybe the Yankees should just get it overwith and trade Jeter to the Red Sox for Ted's head and a bag of BP balls . I'll bet those "Jeter Sucks" t-shirts would sell like hotcakes in navy blue.:)

fredgmuggs
02-18-08, 11:13 AM
more fuel for the fire--he's a horrible defensive shortstop. we should all know that by now.I guess you were happier with the days of Fred Stanley patrolling SS?

His range up the middle stinks but I think he's adequate at all other aspects of fielding his position with fairly reliable hands and a fairly consistent throwing arm when healthy.

Yankees13
02-18-08, 11:33 AM
Yay!!!! Another "Jeter stinks" thread!!!!!! :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

Another stat to prove the case!!!!!


I swear, sometimes it seems like overnight the Yankees and Red Sox swapped a portion of its fan base. Maybe the Yankees should just get it overwith and trade Jeter to the Red Sox for Ted's head and a bag of BP balls . I'll bet those "Jeter Sucks" t-shirts would sell like hotcakes in navy blue.:)
What, does the truth hurt? People can't say Jeter is an ineffective SS without being accused of being Red Sox fans?

Dr. Gonzo
02-18-08, 11:34 AM
yankee fans are idiots http://www.nypost.com/seven/02172008/news/nationalnews/youve_got_to_be_kidding__98050.htm

yanksphan
02-18-08, 11:41 AM
Yup...just as I predicted.

yankeeman61
02-18-08, 11:43 AM
What, does the truth hurt? People can't say Jeter is an ineffective SS without being accused of being Red Sox fans?

If it were actually stated as "ineffective" instead "stinks", or if this topic wasn't beaten and dragged to death by those trying to convince anyone who will listen how "bad" Jeter is, then maybe this legion of Yankee fans won't seem more like Red Sox fans to me. It's like anything else where people who constantly complain about the same thing over and over simply become annoying instead of credible.

justtxyank
02-18-08, 11:45 AM
If it were actually stated as "ineffective" instead "stinks", or if this topic wasn't beaten and dragged to death by those trying to convince anyone who will listen how "bad" Jeter is, then maybe this legion of Yankee fans won't seem more like Red Sox fans to me. It's like anything else where people who constantly complain about the same thing over and over simply become annoying instead of credible.

I don't think people would feel the need to point this out continuously if the majority of fans didn't continue to deny it.

aeromac76
02-18-08, 11:46 AM
From a defensive standpoint:
Jeter's range up the middle is horrendous.
But he has good hands, a strong arm, and goes to the hole well..

He probably has 3 GG because he is Derek Jeter more than he is Ozzie Smith with the glove of course..
But I am not going to sit here and accept that he is the worst defensive SS in the game.
The guy is not a butcher for goodness sake..

"The Straw"
02-18-08, 11:46 AM
I guess some people believe everything they read :o

yanksphan
02-18-08, 11:46 AM
If it were actually stated as "ineffective" instead "stinks", or if this topic wasn't beaten and dragged to death by those trying to convince anyone who will listen how "bad" Jeter is, then maybe this legion of Yankee fans won't seem more like Red Sox fans to me. It's like anything else where people who constantly complain about the same thing over and over simply become annoying instead of credible.

So since you're not interested in discussing it - you've resorted to questioning the fandom of those who are?

YankeePride1967
02-18-08, 11:47 AM
yankee fans are idiots http://www.nypost.com/seven/02172008/news/nationalnews/youve_got_to_be_kidding__98050.htm

I wish I could individually strangle every Yankee fan quoted in that article.

yankeeman61
02-18-08, 11:48 AM
So since you're not interested in discussing it - you've resorted to questioning the fandom of those who are?

Well since you brought up the CS (in your way), could you explain how it is acceptable to state that "Jeter stinks"?

yanksphan
02-18-08, 11:50 AM
Well since you brought up the CS (in your way), could you explain how it is acceptable to state that "Jeter stinks"?

Because it was the title of the article? :dunno:

aeromac76
02-18-08, 11:50 AM
I wish I could individually strangle every Yankee fan quoted in that article.

Yeah, they definitely give us a bad name..
Half of them made it a Jeter versus Arod argument and the other half stated things that have absolutely nothing to do with Jeter's defense. The fact Jeter is a good leader has exactly what relevance to his defense?
But every team has those fans, the casual people who know the names and know the big back page headlines and know little or nothing else. Too bad the Post seemed to find every one of them for this article..

yankeeman61
02-18-08, 11:51 AM
Because it was the title of the article? :dunno:

Accept for the fact that beyond the title of this article, it has been stated numerous times in this forum.

yanksphan
02-18-08, 11:54 AM
Accept for that fact beyond the title of this article, it has been stated numerous times in this forum.

Right. There are some of us who wish to discuss it - there are others who are tired of discussing it, and yet there are still others who just flat out won't acknowledge it.

That's the beauty of a discussion forum. Takes all kinds.

Since95
02-18-08, 11:56 AM
Remember that next time you hear "Ground ball up the middle....past a diving Jeter and through for a basehit!" ;)

Thanks.. I'll make sure I look out for that.. and since this issue is such a concern for those who bring it up.. make sure you bring those "JETER HAS NO RANGE" signs to his Hall of Fame induction.. but more than likely.. the few of you will be in the back of the Cooperstown crowd not being paid any attention.

JavyVazquezIsSick
02-18-08, 11:56 AM
I wish I could individually strangle every Yankee fan quoted in that article.

:lol:

"The Straw"
02-18-08, 11:57 AM
I love how they compare a 27 year old SS (A-Rod in TX) to a 33 year old Jeter (eyes rolling) there's no bias there :o

Yankees13
02-18-08, 12:00 PM
I love how they compare a 27 year old SS (A-Rod in TX) to a 33 year old Jeter (eyes rolling) there's no bias there :o
Uh, do we get a special exemption from poor fielding because we use an older SS? I don't see your point. BTW the study covers Jeter from 27-31, prime years.

teknetic
02-18-08, 12:02 PM
"He has intangible qualities that can't be measured with statistics," said East Village bar owner Kevin Hooshangi, 28.

All this time, I thought this was actually a myth.

yankeeman61
02-18-08, 12:06 PM
Right. There are some of us who wish to discuss it - there are others who are tired of discussing it, and yet there are still others who just flat out won't acknowledge it.

That's the beauty of a discussion forum. Takes all kinds.

Discuss what? That Jeter "stinks" because he can't go to his left very well due to his limited range supported by the newest fielding statistic? By all means, discuss this fresh topic amongst yourselves :)

Nick
02-18-08, 12:10 PM
Discuss what? That Jeter "stinks" because he can't go to his left very well due to his limited range supported by the newest fielding statistic? By all means, discuss this fresh topic amongst yourselves :)

Thanks for telling us what we can discuss on your message board. We'll be sure to check with you before starting any more topics to make sure they meet your satisfaction. The condescending smilie at the end is a nice touch too.

hardrain
02-18-08, 12:11 PM
Jeter's a bad defensive shortstop?? Newsflash material here. First I've heard of it.
really? Derek Jeter is to infield defense roughly what the Edmund Fitzgerald was to maritime navigation on the Great Lakes...Jeter does many things well. He is a HOF offensive player. He is a bad shortstop.

Sorry..I can't get these tables lined up for easy viewing.


Individual Shortstop PMR, 2007, Visit Smooth Distance Model, 2007
<pre> In Predicted Predicted
Play Outs Outs DER DER Ratio
Troy Tulowitzki 4294 615 564.54 0.143 0.131 108.94
Tony F Pena 4010 480 449.44 0.120 0.112 106.80
Rafael Furcal 3574 473 445.28 0.132 0.125 106.23
John McDonald 2389 311 294.27 0.130 0.123 105.69
Jason Bartlett 3631 466 443.58 0.128 0.122 105.05
Jimmy Rollins 4447 528 511.62 0.119 0.115 103.20
Jack Wilson 3657 470 457.15 0.129 0.125 102.81
Yunel Escobar 1116 135 131.47 0.121 0.118 102.69
Jhonny Peralta 4206 512 502.37 0.122 0.119 101.92
Omar Vizquel 3739 504 497.76 0.135 0.133 101.25
Julio Lugo 3592 431 426.14 0.120 0.119 101.14
Adam Everett 1631 217 214.61 0.133 0.132 101.12
Orlando Cabrera 3997 462 456.91 0.116 0.114 101.11
Alex Gonzalez 2728 306 306.06 0.112 0.112 99.98
J.J. Hardy 3873 442 442.35 0.114 0.114 99.92
Cesar Izturis 1904 216 216.36 0.113 0.114 99.83
Bobby Crosby 2524 313 313.77 0.124 0.124 99.75
Stephen Drew 3877 434 435.25 0.112 0.112 99.71
Hanley Ramirez 4054 460 462.96 0.113 0.114 99.36
Ryan Theriot 2494 301 303.06 0.121 0.122 99.32
Khalil Greene 4206 504 507.64 0.120 0.121 99.28
Mark Loretta 1537 177 178.28 0.115 0.116 99.28
Y. Betancourt 4103 464 467.60 0.113 0.114 99.23
Edgar Renteria 3067 361 365.13 0.118 0.119 98.87
Eric Bruntlett 1075 131 132.81 0.122 0.124 98.63
Royce Clayton 1538 200 202.77 0.130 0.132 98.63
Marco Scutaro 1064 122 124.14 0.115 0.117 98.28
Juan Uribe 4113 513 524.43 0.125 0.128 97.82
Jose Reyes 4295 500 511.97 0.116 0.119 97.66
David Eckstein 3002 349 357.57 0.116 0.119 97.60
Miguel Tejada 3317 363 373.46 0.109 0.113 97.20
Jeff Keppinger 1209 130 135.67 0.108 0.112 95.82
Carlos Guillen 3361 389 408.05 0.116 0.121 95.33
Felipe Lopez 2949 359 377.76 0.122 0.128 95.03
Michael Young 4083 476 504.85 0.117 0.124 94.29
Josh Wilson 1340 141 151.37 0.105 0.113 93.15
Brendan Harris 2336 234 253.12 0.100 0.108 92.45
Derek Jeter 4117 421 461.63 0.102 0.112 91.20
Cristian Guzman 1189 117 130.96 0.098 0.110 89.34

justtxyank
02-18-08, 12:17 PM
I love how they compare a 27 year old SS (A-Rod in TX) to a 33 year old Jeter (eyes rolling) there's no bias there :o

I'm not sure I get the relevance of this post. Is one to say that Adam Everett is not a better short stop than Derek Jeter because Jeter is older and therefore can't be evaluated?

yanksphan
02-18-08, 12:20 PM
Discuss what? That Jeter "stinks" because he can't go to his left very well due to his limited range supported by the newest fielding statistic? By all means, discuss this fresh topic amongst yourselves

Gee thanks.... :dunno:

Anyway - I'd imagine it must be an arduous task to collect the data for this study. It seems to follow some of the same methodology that UZR uses.

I think it lends more credibility to itself by using a 3 year period rather than on a year by year basis.

The ranking of Cano (near dead last) proves this.

Retire21
02-18-08, 12:26 PM
Isn't Christian Guzman supposed to be a good defender? I mean, the guy seemingly hits around the Mendoza Line year after year, so if he's the worst fielding SS in baseball, how does this guy have a job at the Major League level?

keg411
02-18-08, 12:30 PM
I mean, I love the guy, but Hanley Ramirez is a pretty atrocious defensive SS. How is he up so high on the list (and by high, I mean not down with Michael Young and Jeter and Guilllen)?

Yankeesfan811
02-18-08, 12:38 PM
http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-gaming/article/2008-02/statheads-speak-derek-jeter-you-stink



and for those complaining about Giambi's defense...

I definately disagree with the analysis that first baseman can only save 5 runs per season, and that they can only give up 1 or 2 runs per season......

giambi can give up 1-2 runs a month.....or every other week actually.

justinvarnes
02-18-08, 12:38 PM
I'm not sure I get the relevance of this post. Is one to say that Adam Everett is not a better short stop than Derek Jeter because Jeter is older and therefore can't be evaluated?


Uh, do we get a special exemption from poor fielding because we use an older SS? I don't see your point. BTW the study covers Jeter from 27-31, prime years.


I took that to mean people are saying the 27 year old A-Rod is currently playing 3B for the Yankees.

I.E. Moving A-Rod back to SS doesn't mean you'll get the guy who was the best in the game 5 years ago.


He'd still be better than Jeter most likely of course, but I think that was the poster's point. It does have relevance.

hardrain
02-18-08, 12:40 PM
Isn't Christian Guzman supposed to be a good defender? I mean, the guy seemingly hits around the Mendoza Line year after year, so if he's the worst fielding SS in baseball, how does this guy have a job at the Major League level?

see Bowden, Jim

"The Straw"
02-18-08, 12:40 PM
I'm not sure I get the relevance of this post. Is one to say that Adam Everett is not a better short stop than Derek Jeter because Jeter is older and therefore can't be evaluated?




"The Yankees have one of the best defensive shortstops playing out of position in deference to one of the worst defensive shortstops," said Jensen.


Considering A-Rod hasn't played SS in 5 years this statement has no basis in fact and shows where their heads were when putting this list together. I'm not saying Jeter is the best SS or that he was better than A-Rod when he was a SS but we have know idea what type of SS A-Rod would be today. Clearly biased atempt to stir up some Yankee drama :mad:

yanksphan
02-18-08, 12:49 PM
I definately disagree with the analysis that first baseman can only save 5 runs per season, and that they can only give up 1 or 2 runs per season......

giambi can give up 1-2 runs a month.....or every other week actually.

That's the beauty of statistics. They can often explain or argue what your eyes believe to be true.

bigjf
02-18-08, 12:50 PM
Stinks? I'm pretty sure his offense makes up for his pedestrian defense. And I'm also sure I've seen some of the best defensive plays ever made by a shortstop (since Ozzie Smith, at least) done by Derek Jeter. Now I'm not going to get the pompoms out and act like he's the greatest thing since sliced bread (slicing bread on one's own must be quite difficult I imagine), but this is making a big deal out of nothing.

As "inconsequential" as a 1B's fielding ability might be, it sure gets accentuated when he messes up, such as when Giambi (as good as his picking ability is) drops an easy pop in foul territory or can't get his fat ass over for a diving play. I wonder how many runs Tino's glove saved or Olerud's...then try to tell me that a 1B's glove isn't important.

Back to Jeter one more time, it does amaze me that for all the highlight reel defensive plays he has made, people are still going to say he "stinks" because he is somehow ranked as a bad defensive SS (I know, that is the article's word). I'm pretty sure the guy is still more than capable of fielding a ball hit to him and throwing a runner out at first. As long as he can do that, he still has a spot in my lineup.

This is also from that same article:

"This is where some interesting ambiguities between statistical facts and baseball strategy arise. Colorado Rockies shortstop Troy Tulowitzki led all shortstops, recording 50 more outs than was expected of him. In particular, Tulowitzki picked up most of his extra outs on the third base side of shortstop. Meanwhile, Garret Atkins, the third baseman for the Rockies, recorded 41 fewer outs than was expected of him. But does that mean that Atkins is a bad fielder? The stats would say yes. But perhaps his coach is telling him to play near the line, putting him out of position of balls that are running through zones that third basemen are expected to cover and being gobbled up by Tulowitzki, who is being told to play a shade deeper to help cover Atkins' ground."

So as I interpret it, there is still a lot of room for argument when determining some of these fielding stats. I happen to think that determining a good fielder from a bad one is one of those things you can just tell from watching a guy play every day. Jeter is not a great everyday fielder compared to others at the position, but he'll do.

yanksphan
02-18-08, 12:58 PM
So as I interpret it, there is still a lot of room for argument when determining some of these fielding stats. I happen to think that determining a good fielder from a bad one is one of those things you can just tell from watching a guy play every day. Jeter is not a great everyday fielder compared to others at the position, but he'll do.

Defensive statistics certainly have their flaws, but there's no way your eyes and memory (mixed with some rah rah bias) are going to be more accurate than 3 years of collective data.

27IsNext
02-18-08, 01:00 PM
I've read on numerous places that Alex is considered an average 3rd baseman.

All the experts love to tell us how Cano is average at 2nd.


At the end of the day...Our guys are not spectacular, but they make enough plays to enable our team to be successful.
And considering how many contact pitchers we've had and have. They have done a good job.


Plus..anyone with a set of eyes knows that Jeter isnt the best at fielding his position.
So instead of using Jeter's name as a way to create a buzz for one's self. Maybe they should come up with something new.

Cano's UZR the last two years show us that he is above average at first. A-Rod is slightly above average at third.

sahara
02-18-08, 01:22 PM
I'm pretty sure his offense makes up for his pedestrian defense.

It's not pedestrian defense, it's bad defense, but yes, Jeter's offense being what it is for the position overcomes his defense and makes him a plus player at SS.

While it needs to be done soon enough, moving him is somewhat tricky because of that. He'd be a good hitter almost anywhere, but he's a great value bat for a middle IF. They have to make sure whatever piece they're plugging into the equation and whatever piece they're pulling out to move him either equals out to an increase in overall value or at least matches it.

Allan
02-18-08, 01:26 PM
From a defensive standpoint:
Jeter's range up the middle is horrendous.
But he has good hands, a strong arm, and goes to the hole well..

He probably has 3 GG because he is Derek Jeter more than he is Ozzie Smith with the glove of course..
But I am not going to sit here and accept that he is the worst defensive SS in the game.
The guy is not a butcher for goodness sake..
Fair enough. Defensive stats aside, and based purely upon the observations of an astute baseball fan ( which I consider you to be ), what shortstop(s) do you consider to be inferior to Jeter from a defensive standpoint?

PJMPirate
02-18-08, 01:33 PM
If it were actually stated as "ineffective" instead "stinks", or if this topic wasn't beaten and dragged to death by those trying to convince anyone who will listen how "bad" Jeter is, then maybe this legion of Yankee fans won't seem more like Red Sox fans to me. It's like anything else where people who constantly complain about the same thing over and over simply become annoying instead of credible.

Do you call the people that complain about Moose Red Sox Fans? How about those that complain about Giambi?

yankees101
02-18-08, 01:41 PM
I agree that Jeter has consistenly shown poor range to his left. It's not even close. He has been a leader and competitor (as well as Yankee Captain) for years but that doesn't mean he can't get criticized for his poor play. The problem some of us have is that this criticizing seems insulting when you say "he stinks" because he obivously doesn't stink. I haven't seen any SS playing right now I would rather see going after a shallow pop-up in the OF. He is one of the, if not THE best in the game at those, IMO.

Criticize all you want but give the man some respect. He is not sitting here proclaiming he is an awesome defensive shortstop. He's a great player and a first ballot HOF'er. His range to his left might be poor, but that is hardly what I would consider appropraite enough to call his defense as a whole the "worst" or simply saying he "stinks". Defense isn't the only thing players bring to the table, but since thats what we're talking about here, I think he is somewhere in the middle in terms of defense as a whole. Bottom line, Jeter isn't costing us more games/runs than every single SS in the league but I bet the crappy pitching we've trotted out there the past few years has something to do with it.

Dave Visbeck
02-18-08, 01:45 PM
http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-gaming/article/2008-02/statheads-speak-derek-jeter-you-stink



and for those complaining about Giambi's defense...




Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">First basemen, it turns out are relatively inconsequential when it comes to fielding balls. On average, the best first basemen will only save their team one or two runs over the course of the season; the very worst only cough up five. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



19 86 ...:giveup:

shoulda been Stapleton, there, as usual, instead

Soriambi
02-18-08, 02:01 PM
I wish I could individually strangle every Yankee fan quoted in that article.

Most of them are like parody answers. I thought I was reading The Onion for a second. :lol:

As for Jeter, I agree with those who think he has some positive and some negative aspects to his fielding. He has good hands, a good arm, is great on balls in the air, and I think he's fine going to his right, but his inability to go to his left (and the extent of it) is more negative than those things are positive. I don't think he's nearly as bad as some people on this site and elsewhere think, but he's certainly not anywhere close to being as good (defensively) as the average Yankee fan thinks.

As for his value as a complete player, I think that he is overrated by casual fans and the media, but I also think he's underrated by a lot of people who are more interested in statistics or who are more intense fans, though there are certainly intense fans who overrate him, too. I think that it is trendy to call him overrated, and I think that makes him quite underrated in a way.

NYYFAN
02-18-08, 02:04 PM
Jeters flip cancels all stats...next...

djeter220
02-18-08, 02:17 PM
Jeter is underrated and overrated, he doesnt deserve gold gloves, but he is far from the worst fielding ss. how about we look past the statistics before labeling him the worst? its rare that his errors are costly, and he also takes away many hits, especially in the third base hole, and he is automatic on both sides of turning a double play.

bigjf
02-18-08, 02:36 PM
Defensive statistics certainly have their flaws, but there's no way your eyes and memory (mixed with some rah rah bias) are going to be more accurate than 3 years of collective data.

Don't get me wrong. I remember plenty of plays up the middle where Jetes would dive and miss a grounder and I'd be screaming at him and scratching my head on how he could miss it, but that doesn't mean I'd rather have John McDonald as my SS.

yanksphan
02-18-08, 02:43 PM
Don't get me wrong. I remember plenty of plays up the middle where Jetes would dive and miss a grounder and I'd be screaming at him and scratching my head on how he could miss it, but that doesn't mean I'd rather have John McDonald as my SS.

Heh...I certainly didn't mean to imply that I want a different SS either. :)

That's the big misconception I've noticed today in this thread - because there are some of us who are critical of DJ's defense, people assume we want him off the team. That's certainly not the case for me. He's my favorite player, and I hate when his flaws are exposed, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand reliving his highlight reels in my head.

justtxyank
02-18-08, 02:45 PM
Don't get me wrong. I remember plenty of plays up the middle where Jetes would dive and miss a grounder and I'd be screaming at him and scratching my head on how he could miss it, but that doesn't mean I'd rather have John McDonald as my SS.

Defensively I would. No, most of Jeter's critics don't want him off the team because we acknowledge that he brings a lot to the table as an offensive player and a base runner that your average SS don't bring. That doesn't mean his defense is good.

justtxyank
02-18-08, 02:46 PM
Jeter is underrated and overrated, he doesnt deserve gold gloves, but he is far from the worst fielding ss. how about we look past the statistics before labeling him the worst? its rare that his errors are costly, and he also takes away many hits, especially in the third base hole, and he is automatic on both sides of turning a double play.

He's underrated offensively actually.

But his defense is bad. He gives up far more hits on ground balls he can't reach than he makes up for going to the hole.

bigjf
02-18-08, 02:47 PM
Heh...I certainly didn't mean to imply that I want a different SS either. :)

That's the big misconception I've noticed today in this thread - because there are some of us who are critical of DJ's defense, people assume we want him off the team. That's certainly not the case for me. He's my favorite player, and I hate when his flaws are exposed, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand reliving his highlight reels in my head.

Nor am I saying you should, but every year a bunch of threads sprout up bashing Jeter and his defense (and it's usually either trolling or just for the sake of going against the grain), so you could see where people would see this as another one of those threads, especially when, as you admitted, defensive stats are still not cut and dry even though the methods may have improved over the years.

But it's definitely fair to be critical. I'm just saying a lot of these articles and such come out just for the sake of drawing attention and ire, and the argument is usually unfairly exaggerated in both directions.

justtxyank
02-18-08, 02:49 PM
Defensive statistics certainly have their flaws, but there's no way your eyes and memory (mixed with some rah rah bias) are going to be more accurate than 3 years of collective data.

It's comical that every single defensive metric shows him to be average or below yet people still deny it. We aren't talking about one study here.

bigjf
02-18-08, 02:50 PM
Defensively I would. No, most of Jeter's critics don't want him off the team because we acknowledge that he brings a lot to the table as an offensive player and a base runner that your average SS don't bring. That doesn't mean his defense is good.

But that would also mean that you would have to plug McDonald's bat into the lineup. So when you look at the production of Jeter's bat vs. the liability of his glove and then compare that with the production of someone like McDonald's glove but the liability of his bat, which would you rather have?

It's that point where I grab my pompoms, having seen the amazing things that Jeter has done when the pressure is on, and I have my doubts that someone like McDonald would produce the same results.

Yankees13
02-18-08, 02:51 PM
I took that to mean people are saying the 27 year old A-Rod is currently playing 3B for the Yankees.

I.E. Moving A-Rod back to SS doesn't mean you'll get the guy who was the best in the game 5 years ago.


He'd still be better than Jeter most likely of course, but I think that was the poster's point. It does have relevance.
Well, the study covered 2002-2005, so Jeter and A-Rod were about the same age. If we assumed a similar deterioration of ability, then the difference would still be the same. Obviously the ship has sailed on A-Rod playing SS, but the Yankees would have been better off if A-Rod had played SS for the Yankees from day 1.

aeromac76
02-18-08, 03:02 PM
Fair enough. Defensive stats aside, and based purely upon the observations of an astute baseball fan ( which I consider you to be ), what shortstop(s) do you consider to be inferior to Jeter from a defensive standpoint?

I'll stick to the AL because I don't see enough of the NL to make a fair judgement.

Guys whom I think Jeter is better than defensively.
Julio Lugo
Jhonny Peralta
Carlos Guillen (although I believe he is moving now, but pertaining to last year...)
Yuniesky Betancourt

I also happen to think he was more consistent than Miggy Tejada as well, although Tejada probably makes more wow plays.
I also have questions about comparing guys from Toronto, Minnesota or Tampa Bay because while the ball gets to you faster on turf, it also takes much truer hops. Most guys will say that it is easier to field the balls hit to you on turf by a wide margin, even if it does cut down on range..

I could go through the NL as well, but I don't see as much baseball there and would be going from a pure stats standpoint (which is what seems to get Jeter in trouble)

And the fact Jeter is soo damned consistent makes a big difference to me.
I remember when Ordonez was a Met, and all you heard was how unreal the guy was, the nightly ESPN highlight. But my brother, a die hard Mets fan, used to say all the time,"you see the ESPN plays, but they don't show him chucking the routine DP grounder into RF or the easy bouncer he lets get right by him." Until the year he actually grew into the position and had a that great errorless streak, he was just as likely to cost you a game defensively as he was to save one. But he was considered a fielding god even while he was making these bad plays.

I always say about our defense, I don't need highlight film plays, as long as we make all the plays we should, I'll take it. Jeter makes the playes he needs to make. I'd rather him make all of them and not have the highlight reel play than boot the easy ones..

yanksphan
02-18-08, 03:17 PM
Nor am I saying you should, but every year a bunch of threads sprout up bashing Jeter and his defense (and it's usually either trolling or just for the sake of going against the grain), so you could see where people would see this as another one of those threads, especially when, as you admitted, defensive stats are still not cut and dry even though the methods may have improved over the years.

But it's definitely fair to be critical. I'm just saying a lot of these articles and such come out just for the sake of drawing attention and ire, and the argument is usually unfairly exaggerated in both directions.

I hear ya - it certainly wasn't my intent to stir the pot.

I've used defensive metrics for years - but always taken them lightly as they have their inherent flaws.

Melky for example, ends up on different ends of different metrics - so I'll wait a little longer before I make a judgment on him.

But when study after study shows consistent info - you have to start to wonder.

Compass Rosy
02-18-08, 04:10 PM
Guys whom I think Jeter is better than defensively.
Julio Lugo
Jhonny Peralta
Carlos Guillen (although I believe he is moving now, but pertaining to last year...)
Yuniesky BetancourtYou just wait on Yuni ;)
Actually, maybe you won't have to wait ... despite the fact that Yuni had five more errors than Jeter last season ~ he also had 90 more chances! ~ his range was much better.
But I guess that's why defense is so hard to quantify - those who can actually get to balls will sometimes have more errors ...

aeromac76
02-18-08, 04:45 PM
You just wait on Yuni ;)
Actually, maybe you won't have to wait ... despite the fact that Yuni had five more errors than Jeter last season ~ he also had 90 more chances! ~ his range was much better.
But I guess that's why defense is so hard to quantify - those who can actually get to balls will sometimes have more errors ...

Actually if you look at it, 5 errors in 90 chances is not great at all..
It equates to a .944 fielding %.

By comparision Jeter's F% was .970 and even Betancourt's own total F% was .967.
The lowest qualifying SS in terms of F% was Carlos Guillen at .955.

I am not saying this disproves your theory, because it does not.. Yuni may get better and may be better and more consistent than Jeter. But the additional chances and errors that he made, from a pure stats point of view, actually point to him being less reliable, even with more chances, than Jeter.

bigwampum
02-18-08, 05:18 PM
Is it my turn to post a "Jeter = Norange McBumblerpants" thread now?

justtxyank
02-18-08, 05:25 PM
But that would also mean that you would have to plug McDonald's bat into the lineup. So when you look at the production of Jeter's bat vs. the liability of his glove and then compare that with the production of someone like McDonald's glove but the liability of his bat, which would you rather have?

It's that point where I grab my pompoms, having seen the amazing things that Jeter has done when the pressure is on, and I have my doubts that someone like McDonald would produce the same results.

Did you read my whole post?

flymick24
02-18-08, 05:51 PM
but he does the jump throw better than anybody in the world

Compass Rosy
02-18-08, 06:06 PM
I am not saying this disproves your theory, because it does not.. Yuni may get better and may be better and more consistent than Jeter. But the additional chances and errors that he made, from a pure stats point of view, actually point to him being less reliable, even with more chances, than Jeter.Well, math was never my strong suit :P
Yuni still has much better range (and you don't need numbers to know that ;))

I look forward to watching him gain that consistency you speak of (he needs to work on his throwing, IIRC, most of his errors were of the throwing variety).
Hurry up April! All this talk of defense has me yearning to see a double play or three http://www.marinercentral.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/baseball_original.gif

Lucen
02-18-08, 06:21 PM
Don't get me wrong. I remember plenty of plays up the middle where Jetes would dive and miss a grounder and I'd be screaming at him and scratching my head on how he could miss it, but that doesn't mean I'd rather have John McDonald as my SS.

This is the crux of the argument here. Jeter is a hall of fame player and he's still a great hitter. So you obviously don't want to trade him for a John McDonald simply to upgrade the defense. The ideal solution is to find a position at which he's less of a defensive liability.

I think a lot of this could be addressed by swapping him and ARod. His biggest weakness (going to his left) would be covered by ARod who has good range to his right AND his left, and he could still get to those balls hit to his right consistantly while taking advantage of his strong arm from the hot corner.

Jeter would probably be a pretty solid defensive third baseman and ARod, while likely not what he was a few years ago, would probably be a pretty significant upgrade defensively at short. Overall, the infield defense would be strengthened without losing anything in the lineup.

Granted, Jeter's power isn't ideal for third base, but I think he'd still be one of the best hitting third baseman in the league. Moving him to 1st might be more difficult as he definitely lacks the power of a typical first base-type. But then again, Youkilis doesn't have much more (if any) pop than Jeter and he was just fine for the Sox in 2007.

In fact, I'll take a quick look...

Jeter: .446 SLG, 39 2B, 12 HR
Youks: .453 SLG, 35 2B, 16 HR

So they're really similar in terms of power. I think moving him to either corner would upgrade the defense significantly for the Yankees. Maybe even use him like the Sox use Youkilis. Most starts at one corner while filling in as the backup at other?

And saying Jeter's DEFENSE stinks is a much different thing than saying Jeter stinks. He's still a very valuable ball player, he just doesn't have the ability to play defense at shortstop effectively.

bigjf
02-18-08, 07:08 PM
Did you read my whole post?

Yes, I did, so let me know if you think I "misremembered" something, because I see that you would still like Jeter's bat in the lineup, but you would still have to add McDonald's bat. This isn't a dream world where you can have Jeter bat and McDonald field obviously. So what's your point?

JL25and3
02-18-08, 07:12 PM
Remember that next time you hear "Ground ball up the middle....past a diving Jeter and through for a basehit!" ;)I think the whole "pasta divingjeter" thing is way overblown.

The fact is, Jeter almost never dives for ground balls at all.

bigjf
02-18-08, 07:16 PM
I think a lot of this could be addressed by swapping him and ARod. His biggest weakness (going to his left) would be covered by ARod who has good range to his right AND his left, and he could still get to those balls hit to his right consistantly while taking advantage of his strong arm from the hot corner.

Jeter would probably be a pretty solid defensive third baseman and ARod, while likely not what he was a few years ago, would probably be a pretty significant upgrade defensively at short. Overall, the infield defense would be strengthened without losing anything in the lineup.

Granted, Jeter's power isn't ideal for third base, but I think he'd still be one of the best hitting third baseman in the league. Moving him to 1st might be more difficult as he definitely lacks the power of a typical first base-type. But then again, Youkilis doesn't have much more (if any) pop than Jeter and he was just fine for the Sox in 2007.

In fact, I'll take a quick look...

Jeter: .446 SLG, 39 2B, 12 HR
Youks: .453 SLG, 35 2B, 16 HR

So they're really similar in terms of power. I think moving him to either corner would upgrade the defense significantly for the Yankees. Maybe even use him like the Sox use Youkilis. Most starts at one corner while filling in as the backup at other?

And saying Jeter's DEFENSE stinks is a much different thing than saying Jeter stinks. He's still a very valuable ball player, he just doesn't have the ability to play defense at shortstop effectively.

I can agree with what you said there. If I had the choice, I probably would have moved Jeter to 3rd when they originally traded for A-Rod, but it obviously can't happen now. Ego gets in the way, plus A-Rod hasn't played SS in quite a while now. I'm sure he'd still be great there, but it's more at this point that Alex has the experience at 3rd while Jeter has none.

The only thing I'm saying is these discussions about Jeter's defense often break down to bashing him overall, usually by trolls (or at least that's my experience). And I think saying he can't play SS effectively is a bit much, even though there are plenty of better defensive options.

Lucen
02-18-08, 07:22 PM
I can agree with what you said there. If I had the choice, I probably would have moved Jeter to 3rd when they originally traded for A-Rod, but it obviously can't happen now. Ego gets in the way, plus A-Rod hasn't played SS in quite a while now. I'm sure he'd still be great there, but it's more at this point that Alex has the experience at 3rd while Jeter has none.

The only thing I'm saying is these discussions about Jeter's defense often break down to bashing him overall, usually by trolls (or at least that's my experience). And I think saying he can't play SS effectively is a bit much, even though there are plenty of better defensive options.

I disagree with you that it can't happen now. Ego should play zero part in it, and if it does, that's Jeter's problem and he needs to get over it. Team should come before positional preference, especially for a captain.

If Cal could move, so can Jeter.

As for it not being fair to say he's not effective as a short stop... well, it's tough to find any advanced defensive metrics that say he is. Most of the more complex and recently developed metrics agree that he's just not good defensively at short. Again, his total value is comfortably in the positive, but if he moved to third (or even first as I mentioned above) it would help his team and help his defensive ratings quite a bit.

bagger015
02-18-08, 07:29 PM
Just another individual with way to much time on their hands..........;)

jcarey
02-18-08, 07:32 PM
I can agree with what you said there. If I had the choice, I probably would have moved Jeter to 3rd when they originally traded for A-Rod, but it obviously can't happen now. Ego gets in the way, plus A-Rod hasn't played SS in quite a while now. I'm sure he'd still be great there, but it's more at this point that Alex has the experience at 3rd while Jeter has none.

The only thing I'm saying is these discussions about Jeter's defense often break down to bashing him overall, usually by trolls (or at least that's my experience). And I think saying he can't play SS effectively is a bit much, even though there are plenty of better defensive options.

Does his inability to go left just transfer to 3B or does having the SS there simply negate that? My assumption is that because a 3rd baseman only gets 2-3 steps to his left before the ball is on him, it wouldn't really matter, but I'm not sure.

Also, in response to aeromac76 (since I don't know how to double quote), how is it that you can be happy that Jeter makes the plays that he shoud, when that is the very ability questioned by these studies? He doesn't even get to balls that a normal SS would get to, so he ends up not making those plays.

JL25and3
02-18-08, 07:36 PM
I disagree with you that it can't happen now. Ego should play zero part in it, and if it does, that's Jeter's problem and he needs to get over it. Team should come before positional preference, especially for a captain.

If Cal could move, so can Jeter.

As for it not being fair to say he's not effective as a short stop... well, it's tough to find any advanced defensive metrics that say he is. Most of the more complex and recently developed metrics agree that he's just not good defensively at short. Again, his total value is comfortably in the positive, but if he moved to third (or even first as I mentioned above) it would help his team and help his defensive ratings quite a bit.I have absolutely no confidence in any of the "advanced defensive metrics," even the "more complex" ones.

But it doesn't take any kind of metric to know that Jeter's range to his left is bupkes.

As for whether moving Jeter to 3b can or can't happen now: moot point, because it won't. He's not moving to third, Rodriguez isn't moving to short. It's just not happening. (I'd also point out that we don't know whether Rodriguez can still handle ss, or whether Jeter can play 3b worth a hoot.)

fredgmuggs
02-18-08, 07:37 PM
This is the crux of the argument here. Jeter is a hall of fame player and he's still a great hitter. So you obviously don't want to trade him for a John McDonald simply to upgrade the defense. The ideal solution is to find a position at which he's less of a defensive liability.

I think a lot of this could be addressed by swapping him and ARod.[....edit....]

I hear that all the time but truthfully I have no idea if ARod can play SS anymore. The last time he played the position regularly was in 2003 and he's bulked up quite a bit since then.

And if you care to believe unattributed sources, last year during his short lived free agent period one of the NY tabloids had a quote from the always reliable "unnamed close friend" that ARod was making it clear to any team interested in signing him that he will not play SS - he is a 3Bman now.

So, if Arod doesn't think he's a SS anymore, why should I?

yanksphan
02-18-08, 07:44 PM
I think the whole "pasta divingjeter" thing is way overblown.

The fact is, Jeter almost never dives for ground balls at all.

I was trying to find a way to work that in there too. ;)

Lucen
02-18-08, 08:16 PM
I hear that all the time but truthfully I have no idea if ARod can play SS anymore. The last time he played the position regularly was in 2003 and he's bulked up quite a bit since then.

And if you care to believe unattributed sources, last year during his short lived free agent period one of the NY tabloids had a quote from the always reliable "unnamed close friend" that ARod was making it clear to any team interested in signing him that he will not play SS - he is a 3Bman now.

So, if Arod doesn't think he's a SS anymore, why should I?

That uncertainty is why I pointed out the viability of him playing 1st as well. And you could even look to try him in the outfield. He still has pretty decent speed and his arm is strong, so maybe he'd do alright in right field. The point is this... he's not a good defensive shortstop. If there is another position on the diamond he can play at a higher rate, the Yankees shouldn't let his ego or anyone elses get in the way of finding out.

Put him at 1st, put him in center, put him behind the plate if he can handle it... but don't keep him at short simply because he doesn't want to move. That doesn't make sense if he is a defensive liability there.

fredgmuggs
02-18-08, 08:21 PM
That uncertainty is why I pointed out the viability of him playing 1st as well. And you could even look to try him in the outfield. He still has pretty decent speed and his arm is strong, so maybe he'd do alright in right field. The point is this... he's not a good defensive shortstop. If there is another position on the diamond he can play at a higher rate, the Yankees shouldn't let his ego or anyone elses get in the way of finding out.

Put him at 1st, put him in center, put him behind the plate if he can handle it... but don't keep him at short simply because he doesn't want to move. That doesn't make sense if he is a defensive liability there.I always thought Jeter could play CF... ala the Robin Yount switch. But he's not going to move willingly and the Yankees also seem unwilling to move him from SS, so any discussion about a switch is a moot point.

JL25and3
02-18-08, 10:01 PM
I always thought Jeter could play CF... ala the Robin Yount switch. But he's not going to move willingly and the Yankees also seem unwilling to move him from SS, so any discussion about a switch is a moot point.I started saying that five years ago or more, when Bernie started to slip. I thought he'd be an excellent CF...but I'm afraid it may be too late now.

jcarey
02-18-08, 10:12 PM
I hear that all the time but truthfully I have no idea if ARod can play SS anymore. The last time he played the position regularly was in 2003 and he's bulked up quite a bit since then.


I think A-Rod in 2007 was about as lean as he was in 2003. I bet he could handle SS just fine - almost certainly better than Jeter.

Abe Frohman
02-18-08, 10:12 PM
Ive been sayin this for a while... Jeter is HORRIBLE at SS. has been for a while. we shouldve moved AROD to SS in 04 but nooooo !!! cant move the captain !!! now were stuck ... Ideal situation would be to move the deuce to 1B and go hard after Hanley Ramirez. id literally go bananas if this dream came true ...

27IsNext
02-18-08, 10:14 PM
Ive been sayin this for a while... Jeter is HORRIBLE at SS. has been for a while. we shouldve moved AROD to SS in 04 but nooooo !!! cant move the captain !!! now were stuck ... Ideal situation would be to move the deuce to 1B and go hard after Hanley Ramirez. id literally go bananas if this dream came true ...

It's my understanding that Ramirez is even worse than Jeter defensively.

Hopefully Jetes gets the DH spot after Posada's contract is up (assuming he gets a new deal, and I see no reason why he wouldn't).

sahara
02-18-08, 10:15 PM
He's a terrific young player (and we aren't getting him any time soon, period), but if you hate bad defense at SS, Han Ram is definitely not your man.

edwardthomas34
02-18-08, 10:25 PM
why are we constantly picking on derek jeter?we know he's no ozzie smith but he is one of the best players year in and year out for the yankees.It's as if jeter is so terrible he should be traded.He's not worrying me so much if he continues to produce.

27IsNext
02-18-08, 10:57 PM
why are we constantly picking on derek jeter?we know he's no ozzie smith but he is one of the best players year in and year out for the yankees.It's as if jeter is so terrible he should be traded.He's not worrying me so much if he continues to produce.

I want Jeter to stay on the team until he's no longer one of the best pure hitters in the game. Admitting his defensive shortcomings is not "picking" on him. I don't think you'll find one Yankee fan on here who doesn't love Derek and appreciate all he's done for us over the years.

JL25and3
02-18-08, 11:58 PM
I want Jeter to stay on the team until he's no longer one of the best pure hitters in the game. Admitting his defensive shortcomings is not "picking" on him. I don't think you'll find one Yankee fan on here who doesn't love Derek and appreciate all he's done for us over the years.I was smitten with Jeter's play and his attitude from the moment he came up. In 12+ years, that hasn't changed a bit. It's been a privilege to watch him all this time.

But he's never been a good defensive shortstop, and last year he was downright brutal.

yankees101
02-19-08, 12:06 AM
I think most of the people here criticizing DJ are being fair. I just disagree with saying his "defense" is bad. There are parts that are below average (namely his range to his left, which is a BIG one) but there are things that he does that are above average like turning DP's, chasing shallow fly balls and I think he still has a pretty good arm.

I think some of us sometimes leave out "our" guys that came up together from criticism, especially Jeter. We're open to calling out Damon for his noodle arm, Posada and Giambi for being slow as hell on the bases, ANY pitcher not named Mo, Alex prior to last season for not coming through in the "clutch", Robbie for being lazy, Melky for not hitting, etc etc etc. If they put on a uniform they should be subject to analysis of all aspects of their game as long as its not insulting. People making it seem like we should trade him or that he is "horrible" at SS give Yankee fans a bad name. We're still lucky to have him as the Captain and if that means he HAS to play SS (I don't see him forcing that issue btw anyway like some people make it out to be) then so be it. I'm sure most fans of other teams would love to have Jeter for as long as we've had him and will continue to have him. He isn't perfect and his range stinks, but it could be worse.

If we could add someone else's defense to DJ's arsenal then I'm all for it. Since that won't be happeneing, I'll take Derek Jeter over any of those other guys.

JL25and3
02-19-08, 12:28 AM
I think most of the people here criticizing DJ are being fair. I just disagree with saying his "defense" is bad. There are parts that are below average (namely his range to his left, which is a BIG one) but there are things that he does that are above average like turning DP's, chasing shallow fly balls and I think he still has a pretty good arm.

I think some of us sometimes leave out "our" guys that came up together from criticism, especially Jeter. We're open to calling out Damon for his noodle arm, Posada and Giambi for being slow as hell on the bases, ANY pitcher not named Mo, Alex prior to last season for not coming through in the "clutch", Robbie for being lazy, Melky for not hitting, etc etc etc. If they put on a uniform they should be subject to analysis of all aspects of their game as long as its not insulting. People making it seem like we should trade him or that he is "horrible" at SS give Yankee fans a bad name. We're still lucky to have him as the Captain and if that means he HAS to play SS (I don't see him forcing that issue btw anyway like some people make it out to be) then so be it. I'm sure most fans of other teams would love to have Jeter for as long as we've had him and will continue to have him. He isn't perfect and his range stinks, but it could be worse.

If we could add someone else's defense to DJ's arsenal then I'm all for it. Since that won't be happeneing, I'll take Derek Jeter over any of those other guys.Fair enough point. Here's what I'd say about Jeter's defense:

Awful range to his left; probably adequate to his right, but no better. Both seemed to get noticeably worse last year.

Excellent at tracking popups. His one genuine strength (and one of the reasons I think he would have made a good CF).

I'm not sure I agree he's all that good at turning DPs. He hangs in well, but he's not especially fast on the pivot.

His arm's OK, but I think it's overrated. The jump throw definitely helps him on balls to his right, but overall his arm is only decent. A guy like Reyes is able to play two steps further back than Jeter does - which would sure help his play in general.

So not every aspect of his defense is terrible, you're right. But I think his range is so limited that it overshadows the rest. And since he's only got one above-average skill, I think it's pretty fair to describe him as a bad defensive shortstop.

Dave Visbeck
02-19-08, 12:31 AM
Fair enough point. Here's what I'd say about Jeter's defense:

Awful range to his left; probably adequate to his right, but no better. Both seemed to get noticeably worse last year.

Excellent at tracking popups. His one genuine strength (and one of the reasons I think he would have made a good CF).

I'm not sure I agree he's all that good at turning DPs. He hangs in well, but he's not especially fast on the pivot.

His arm's OK, but I think it's overrated. The jump throw definitely helps him on balls to his right, but overall his arm is only decent. A guy like Reyes is able to play two steps further back than Jeter does - which would sure help his play in general.

So not every aspect of his defense is terrible, you're right. But I think his range is so limited that it overshadows the rest. And since he's only got one above-average skill, I think it's pretty fair to describe him as a bad defensive shortstop.

JL. Dos this "new" fielding stat have anything to do with average chances in a game?

RIYankee23
02-19-08, 02:31 AM
From a defensive standpoint:
Jeter's range up the middle is horrendous.
But he has good hands, a strong arm, and goes to the hole well..

He probably has 3 GG because he is Derek Jeter more than he is Ozzie Smith with the glove of course..
But I am not going to sit here and accept that he is the worst defensive SS in the game.
The guy is not a butcher for goodness sake..

Thank you. The study was based on catching popups, line drives, and fielding. In terms of tracking down fly balls, Jeter has always been very good (much better than Arod actually).

It was kind of ironic in a way that in 2006 Jeter got a Gold Glove he clearly didn't deserve over Alex Gonzalez but he got screwed out of the MVP by ignorant sportswriters like Joe Cowley.

Jeter is a competent SS at worst, it's insulting to say he's the worst defensive SS in the league.

jeterismyhomeboy
02-19-08, 03:47 AM
No, he's the worst defensive shortstop in the league. Okay...maybe not worst worst, but that's only because Hanley Ramirez saves his butt.

I love DJ. Um, hello, my handle is Jeter-oriented. But it's absolutely ridiculous to say that he's even average. I mean, the assumption when a ball goes through the middle on the SS side of the bag is that it is through. He doesn't get to balls on his left at all. He's good at charging, and his range to his right is okay, but he makes it look harder than it is. John McDonald does all of that deep in the hole stuff without nearly as much fanfare.

He didn't even vaguely deserve those GG. I mean, let's not say that Gold Gloves are the standard and then lambaste the same writers when they don't elect him MVP.

That is not to say that DJ is not valuable. He's immensely valuable. He's probably one of the top 3 most-valuable shortstops since he came up. But it's entirely due to his offense. Even if you don't like defensive metrics, or numbers, or anything but your eyes, just watch another shortstop for a few weeks. Pick a random team and watch their shortstop. Instinctively, I've found that I see a ball to the left of the shortstop and assume it's a hit. And then I see the fielder there and it's turned into an out. It's amazing the difference between DJ and other SS defensively.

Derek Jeter is part of the reason I love the Yankees, part of the reason I love baseball, and the first celebrity crush I ever had. I appreciate every single day I've had the chance to watch him play. But he's a really awful defensive shortstop. Seriously.

Oh, and errors (and therefore fielding %) is a terrible way to rate fielding, because errors depend on the scorer for that day and a very ambiguous "ordinary effort" definition, and doesn't penalize guys who just don't get to balls at all, and in fact, penalizes guys who get to even more balls but make "errors" on those extraordinary plays or whatever because the scorer has a beef with him or whatnot.

And it makes perfect sense that a 1B makes little to no difference. Jason Giambi had that horrible Boston game, but he had another game earlier that season where he made a diving stop and did some nice stuff with the glove. Doug M. had a few stinkers too. At the end of the day, go with the slugger at 1B. The defensive difference simply cannot outweigh the offensive contribution expected.

KLJ
02-19-08, 07:35 AM
Jeter is a competent SS at worst, ....
i would say he is competent at best...

jcarey
02-19-08, 08:35 AM
Hanley can't even save his butt...they're in different leagues. So Jeter would probably be the worst in the AL unless you consider Lugo a starting SS - which I do, mostly for this reason.

bigjf
02-19-08, 10:09 AM
Ive been sayin this for a while... Jeter is HORRIBLE at SS. has been for a while. we shouldve moved AROD to SS in 04 but nooooo !!! cant move the captain !!! now were stuck ... Ideal situation would be to move the deuce to 1B and go hard after Hanley Ramirez. id literally go bananas if this dream came true ...

This is exactly the kind of bashing post I was talking about. Yep, Jeter will be SS and A-Rod will play 3rd. Might as well not watch for the next 10 years because we're screwed! We'll never contend with that configuration...

Give me a break.

bigjf
02-19-08, 10:16 AM
Does his inability to go left just transfer to 3B or does having the SS there simply negate that? My assumption is that because a 3rd baseman only gets 2-3 steps to his left before the ball is on him, it wouldn't really matter, but I'm not sure.

It's basically a combination of what you said. There is less reaction time at 3B, so Jeter would only have a couple of steps before the ball is by him, but A-Rod has the arm and range to make up for it. This is with the assumption that A-Rod is still good enough to his left to get the ones in the hole, which by the way I have seen Jeter get plenty of times with that spin and throw behind the bag. So once again, while he's not a great everyday defensive SS, I still think it gets way overblown as an issue. This is just when people get sick of discussing the pitching staff and the coaching staff.

On to the next thread: "Why Jorge Should Move to 1B NOW and Platoon with Jeter, Damon, and Matsui"

edwardthomas34
02-19-08, 10:22 AM
This is exactly the kind of bashing post I was talking about. Yep, Jeter will be SS and A-Rod will play 3rd. Might as well not watch for the next 10 years because we're screwed! We'll never contend with that configuration...

Give me a break.
Jeter is so horrible that the yankees managed to make the playoffs in all the years jeter's been with the yankees and win 4 world series title.The yankees have bigger problems to worry about than jeter.Yes he didn't deserve his gold glove but he's not exactly a butcher at ss is he?

sahara
02-19-08, 10:53 AM
He'd be a butcher if he could get to enough balls to butcher them. He can't.

Again though, his bat more than makes up for his actual defense at SS. He's a more valuable commodity overall by a decent margin than someone like Adam Everett most years, so yeah, it's not surprising he's a big contributing factor to the team's successes during his tenure.

BobbytheMurcer
02-19-08, 01:42 PM
My eyes tell me he's a fine player at shortstop. I want the ball hit to him. But it seems every in depth report puts him at the bottom and has for years. Can they all be wrong? Supposedly they are NOT biased..the numbers don't lie?

If all that is true...then why not think about a move to centerfield or firstbase in the next couple years? I mean, sooner or later..if he is as bad as the numbers say, it will become evident to our eyes...

"The Straw"
02-19-08, 02:02 PM
Awful range to his left; probably adequate to his right, but no better. Both seemed to get noticeably worse last year.



He did play with a knee injury all season ;) One that would have put most of those SS in the league that are supposed to be better than him on the DL indefinitely.

djeter220
02-19-08, 02:16 PM
Compare the top fielding shortstops from last year to Jeter. The "top" fielders (Rollins, Cabrera, Vizquel) average to have a fielding percentage of .985 and 10 errors, while the "worst" fielder (Jeter) fielded .970 and 18 errors. Thats not exactly an overwhelmingly drastic difference between the top and "bottom." I'll take a guy that makes 97% of the plays and is better offensively than 2 of the top 3 defensive SS, and is the face of the franchise. If he were actually that bad of a fielder, new york fans would know, and new york fans would be vocal about it.

PhilHughesFan
02-19-08, 02:23 PM
Compare the top fielding shortstops from last year to Jeter. The "top" fielders (Rollins, Cabrera, Vizquel) average to have a fielding percentage of .985 and 10 errors, while the "worst" fielder (Jeter) fielded .970 and 18 errors. Thats not exactly an overwhelmingly drastic difference between the top and "bottom." I'll take a guy that makes 97% of the plays and is better offensively than 2 of the top 3 defensive SS, and is the face of the franchise. If he were actually that bad of a fielder, new york fans would know, and new york fans would be vocal about it.

If fielding % were the only way to measure fielders then I agree that Jeter wouldn't be that bad. Unfortunately they also measure range, which Jeter is terrible at. His bat still makes him better than most but he's just not a good fielder at all.

yanksphan
02-19-08, 02:24 PM
The problem is those metrics only measure the plays where the player has a chance to make the play.

Jeter's numbers look good by those metrics because when he gets to a ball - he usually makes that play. The problem is - he doesn't get to a lot of balls that other SS do.

apalradio
02-19-08, 02:25 PM
Players have been known to "work on their defense", with some actually turning themselves into better fielders than their reputation suggests. Wade Boggs actually became a decent defensive third baseman later in his career, even though he was considered a brutal fielder for a number of years. Any chance Jetes is one of those players who can successfully turn his defense around?

YankeesAce4Life
02-19-08, 02:48 PM
Jeter's problem is his range to his left and that's now due to his age. Otherwise he is a decent SS.

Jeter would be great in CF. The big names we had in CF for us, DiMaggio, Mantle and even Bernie Williams. I doubt he'd move, but that would be the best option for him since he does have speed, a really good arm and he is very good with over the shoulder catches and fly balls.

longtimeyankeefan
02-19-08, 02:57 PM
To me, measuring an individual's defensive prowess is impossible using simply numbers - one must watch the player in order to understand his defensive skill set.

Jeter clearly has a weakness going to the left - no one disputes that fact.

But, IMO, he makes up for this weakness with other plus and plus-plus traits.

He is one of the best, if not the best, in making the over the shoulder catch going into LF, allowing the LFer to play a little deeper.

He has made the jump throw in the hole an art form, allowing the 3Bman to play closer to the line than normal.

Finally, he has THE BEST instincts I have ever seen in a baseball player - and that covers 45 years of watching baseball games. Have you ever seen Jeter out of place on a play? No, what we see is Jeter making the flip, etc.

IMO, he is not the best defensive shortstop, but he is a complete package. I will gladly take him as this team's shortstop for some years to come.

YankeesAce4Life
02-19-08, 02:58 PM
To me, measuring an individual's defensive prowess is impossible using simply numbers - one must watch the player in order to understand his defensive skill set.

Jeter clearly has a weakness going to the left - no one disputes that fact.

But, IMO, he makes up for this weakness with other plus and plus-plus traits.

He is one of the best, if not the best, in making the over the shoulder catch going into LF, allowing the LFer to play a little deeper.

He has made the jump throw in the hole an art form, allowing the 3Bman to play closer to the line than normal.

Finally, he has THE BEST instincts I have ever seen in a baseball player - and that covers 45 years of watching baseball games. Have you ever seen Jeter out of place on a play? No, what we see is Jeter making the flip, etc.

IMO, he is not the best defensive shortstop, but he is a complete package. I will gladly take him as this team's shortstop for some years to come.

Agreed. There are way too many people nit-picking every little aspect of each player. If the guy helps us win a game, I'm all for it. If it wasn't for Derek Jeter, in all honesty, I doubt the Yankees would have won 4 rings in the 90's/2000.

mrbawm
02-19-08, 03:20 PM
Jeter's value is diminished at SS. It doesn't matter if he makes those great over the shoulder catches or he has a strong throwing arm. The chances to use that skill compared to a routine ground ball towards second are small.

We certainly could use a good to great defensive CF with his kind of bat. I wonder if he'd take to the position, because Damon and Cabrera are subpar options out there.

Allan
02-19-08, 03:40 PM
Count me among those who feel that Jeter is a 1st ballot HoF'er. That being said, I firmly believe that, all else being equal, if Jeter was moved to 1B and a John McDonald-type was our SS, Yankee staff ERA would drop notably.

yanksphan
02-19-08, 04:01 PM
I don't think the casual fan realizes how bad Jeter is. Watch this thread in a couple days - you'll see Yankee fans themselves mentioning jump throws, the Gold Gloves, the flip play, or the dive into the seats.




But, IMO, he makes up for this weakness with other plus and plus-plus traits.

He is one of the best, if not the best, in making the over the shoulder catch going into LF, allowing the LFer to play a little deeper.

He has made the jump throw in the hole an art form, allowing the 3Bman to play closer to the line than normal.

Finally, he has THE BEST instincts I have ever seen in a baseball player - and that covers 45 years of watching baseball games. Have you ever seen Jeter out of place on a play? No, what we see is Jeter making the flip, etc.


Heh..

sahara
02-19-08, 04:23 PM
That being said, I firmly believe that, all else being equal, if Jeter was moved to 1B and a John McDonald-type was our SS, Yankee staff ERA would drop notably.

Probably not enough for it to be a net gain, which is all that really matters.

McDonald, specifically, only has a career 58 OPS+. Our 1B situation, while not great, out-produces that easily.

You'd have to find a SS who can at least be league average with the bat to go with the glove for it to be a lateral or better move, in terms of overall value, right now. That's not as easy as it sounds.

"The Straw"
02-19-08, 04:31 PM
Count me among those who feel that Jeter is a 1st ballot HoF'er. That being said, I firmly believe that, all else being equal, if Jeter was moved to 1B and a John McDonald-type was our SS, Yankee staff ERA would drop notably.

So would run production.

Allan
02-19-08, 04:36 PM
Probably not enough for it to be a net gain, which is all that really matters.

McDonald, specifically, only has a career 58 OPS+. Our 1B situation, while not great, out-produces that easily.

You'd have to find a SS who can at least be league average with the bat to go with the great glove for it to be a lateral move, in terms of overall value, right now. That's not as easy as it sounds.
Yes, I agree. But my point is not about offense or net gain or overall value. I stressed that I believe Jeter is going to the HOF and his bat will be sorely missed when he does retire. I merely suggest that better defense at SS would lead to improvements in staff ERA.

Allan
02-19-08, 04:38 PM
So would run production.
Sure would...... but I thought this thread was about defense.

yanksphan
02-19-08, 04:39 PM
You'd have to find a SS who can at least be league average with the bat to go with the glove for it to be a lateral or better move, in terms of overall value, right now. That's not as easy as it sounds.

I had that conversation with another forumer here. I think our list turned out to be:

Troy Tulowitzki

sahara
02-19-08, 04:56 PM
I wish. :(

Moving Jeter would probably be easier to swallow, from a value POV, if he moved to CF (and was even on the fringe of being league average defensively out there, a la Melky) though, not 1B, as then they'd just be swapping whoever plays SS' value with Melky, not the 1B slot.

jeterismyhomeboy
02-19-08, 05:00 PM
I had that conversation with another forumer here. I think our list turned out to be:

Troy Tulowitzki

And that's why I'm hoping and praying for Salcedo right now. Just imagine...:drool:

Anyway, despite the awesomeness of the flip play, Jetes was way out of position.

Also, as someone else noted, the pop flies and over the shoulder catches are nice and all, but he'll see a fraction of those compared to routine ground balls to his left. I'd rather see him make normal, everyday plays well than to see him dive into stands or do flip plays once every three or four years.

He is very, very awesome player, I don't dispute it. He's just an awful fielding shortstop. Watch someone like Orlando Cabrera for two weeks and then come back and watch Jeter, if you don't believe in fielding metrics.

Mean Linguine
02-19-08, 05:01 PM
You can't win with Jeter at short. Except for the years 1996-07.

jeterismyhomeboy
02-19-08, 05:02 PM
I wish. :(

Moving Jeter would probably be easier to swallow, from a value POV, if he moved to CF (and was even on the fringe of being league average defensively out there, a la Melky) though, not 1B, as then they'd just be swapping whoever plays SS' value with Melky, not the 1B slot.

Someone ran the stats and found out that Jete is an above-average bat even at 1B. You lose some of the slugging, but he's basically the equivalent of Justin Morneau over the course of a year.

That, of course, just emphasizes how incredible he is as a SS. That kind of production is just unbelievable.

R.V.47
02-19-08, 05:05 PM
Everyone complains about his defense but what are the alternatives. Alberto Gonzalez or Wilson Betemit? Those are 2 names that should not even be in the same sentence as Derek Jeter. A-Rod at SS would not be a huge upgrade either IMO hes built for 3B now.

sahara
02-19-08, 05:07 PM
Someone ran the stats and found out that Jete is an above-average bat even at 1B. You lose some of the slugging, but he's basically the equivalent of Justin Morneau over the course of a year.

It's true, but that's not really the point though.

If you're moving Jeter's bat/value off of SS, you're replacing what you get out of 1B now with the new SS.

If you move Jeter to CF and he's not Bernie-By-The-End-Bad defensively out there, you're now exchanging assumingly Melky for the new SS, which is a much easier and possibly/probably positive swap, even with our 1B situation as it was last year.

I do think Derek is much more likely to end up at 1B in reality than CF when he does finally move, however.

yanksphan
02-19-08, 05:08 PM
He is very, very awesome player, I don't dispute it. He's just an awful fielding shortstop. Watch someone like Orlando Cabrera for two weeks and then come back and watch Jeter, if you don't believe in fielding metrics.

Living in San Diego the past 7 years, I had the opportunity to watch Khalil Greene and O-Cab on a regular basis.

Everytime a ball went up the middle, I would always assume a basehit - only to see Khalil or O-Cab there to make the play.

I'm one of Jeter's biggest fans, and I enjoy the highlights as much as anyone - but that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge his shortcomings as well.

cyhughes22
02-19-08, 06:08 PM
I know some ppl are questioning whether or not the captain would move if asked and I think the answer is pretty obvious. Of course he would. There's been nothing in the past 12 years to indicate that Derek is a selfish player or that he won't do what's neccessary to help the team. I think theres a great deal of difference between asking him to move to CF or 1B in the near future as opposed to if they'd asked him to move specifically for A-Rod in 04 when he was still @ least a pretty decent shortstop. Having said that I would much rather see him in center for a couple of years if/ when he is moved because the logjam @ 1st base now is ridiculous and I have to believe that there will be quite a few aging yankees in the near future vying for that position.

b_joseph
02-19-08, 06:11 PM
One final thing I'll say in this thread.

If you put Orlando Cabrera or John McDonald at SS for us. Would we then win a championship?

When you answer that truthfully, then you'll realise that all the detractors are seriously using the energy on the wrong thing.

jeterismyhomeboy
02-19-08, 06:18 PM
One final thing I'll say in this thread.

If you put Orlando Cabrera or John McDonald at SS for us. Would we then win a championship?

When you answer that truthfully, then you'll realise that all the detractors are seriously using the energy on the wrong thing.

But...Orlando Cabrera does have a W.S. ring. :confused:

DrNick
02-19-08, 06:20 PM
So would run production.


Would it?...its not as if the offensive production from 1B has stellar the last few years

Mr. Mxylsplk
02-19-08, 06:25 PM
Would it?...its not as if the offensive production from 1B has stellar the last few years
While that's true, it's been well above what a player like John McDonald has produced. While I think the yanks could theoretically improve as a team by moving Jeter, I don't think his defense is so bad that replacing him with a zero at the plate like McDonald would be a net improvement.

JL25and3
02-19-08, 06:53 PM
I know some ppl are questioning whether or not the captain would move if asked and I think the answer is pretty obvious. Of course he would. There's been nothing in the past 12 years to indicate that Derek is a selfish player or that he won't do what's neccessary to help the team. I think theres a great deal of difference between asking him to move to CF or 1B in the near future as opposed to if they'd asked him to move specifically for A-Rod in 04 when he was still @ least a pretty decent shortstop. Having said that I would much rather see him in center for a couple of years if/ when he is moved because the logjam @ 1st base now is ridiculous and I have to believe that there will be quite a few aging yankees in the near future vying for that position.Wow, you have a lot more confidence in his selflessness than I do.

fredgmuggs
02-19-08, 07:05 PM
Wow, you have a lot more confidence in his selflessness than I do.Shelflessness or egolessness? And I'm sure Jeter has a sizable ego about his abilities. You don't get to be a major league ballplayer without one.

Since95
02-19-08, 07:11 PM
You can't win with Jeter at short. Except for the years 1996-07.

This Thread has no credibility after a statement like that...
That might be the most assanine statement ever on any Thread.
:-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock-

dabomb2045
02-19-08, 07:16 PM
Shelflessness or egolessness? And I'm sure Jeter has a sizable ego about his abilities. You don't get to be a major league ballplayer without one.

We'll find out eventually....because the day will come when the Yanks will force him to move to another position.

Mr. Mxylsplk
02-19-08, 07:20 PM
This Thread has no credibility after a statement like that...
That might be the most assanine statement ever on any Thread.
If someone can't recognize sarcasm as thick as that, I think they're taking the subject more than a little too seriously.

Soriambi
02-19-08, 07:30 PM
The folks at FJM's take on the Post article (warning: a bit of strong language at times):

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/02/this-is-what-were-up-against.html

yanksphan
02-19-08, 08:15 PM
This Thread has no credibility after a statement like that...
That might be the most assanine statement ever on any Thread.
:-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock-

Swingandamisssss

longtimeyankeefan
02-19-08, 08:36 PM
Heh..

This argument may be the most cogent, succinct response I have ever read on this board.

YASS
02-19-08, 08:44 PM
Shelflessness or egolessness? And I'm sure Jeter has a sizable ego about his abilities. You don't get to be a major league ballplayer without one.

I feel confident in asserting that Derek Jeter is far from shelfless.

I bet he's got dozens of shelves.

fredgmuggs
02-19-08, 08:48 PM
I feel confident in asserting that Derek Jeter is far from shelfless.

I bet he's got dozens of shelves.hmmmm, good point.:lol:

I guess the next question for tax purposes are if those shelfs are located in FLA or NY?

ajra21
02-20-08, 07:15 AM
A note on the 1B argument: Anyone who watched most the NYY games last year should remember how often Doug M. made GREAT plays that would have cost the team alot more than 1 or 2 runs a season.

Likewise, we all saw Giambi give away 3 runs in one game at 1B.

Take that for whatever you think it's worth, but to me it shows that just last year by me watching ONE team it was easy to disprove the 1B theory. Of course, maybe this year will be different.

totally agree. people constantly down play the effect a first baseman can have. he stops picthers from having to throw extra pitches which itself is a bonus.

yanksphan
02-20-08, 09:19 AM
This argument may be the most cogent, succinct response I have ever read on this board.

Sorry it had to be you, but my point was proven as predicted.

PJMPirate
02-20-08, 11:08 AM
I know some ppl are questioning whether or not the captain would move if asked and I think the answer is pretty obvious. Of course he would. There's been nothing in the past 12 years to indicate that Derek is a selfish player or that he won't do what's neccessary to help the team. I think theres a great deal of difference between asking him to move to CF or 1B in the near future as opposed to if they'd asked him to move specifically for A-Rod in 04 when he was still @ least a pretty decent shortstop. Having said that I would much rather see him in center for a couple of years if/ when he is moved because the logjam @ 1st base now is ridiculous and I have to believe that there will be quite a few aging yankees in the near future vying for that position.

Oh yeah? How about throwing A-Rod under the bus in 2006?

jeterismyhomeboy
02-20-08, 11:21 AM
Oh yeah? How about throwing A-Rod under the bus in 2006?

Please, for the love of all that's good and holy, let's not start this argument. Please. PLEASE.

Derek Jeter: mediocre fielder; great hitter; HoF shortstop; Yankee captain. That's really all there is to say.

patrick.o
02-20-08, 11:42 AM
From a defensive standpoint:
Jeter's range up the middle is horrendous.
But he has good hands, a strong arm, and goes to the hole well..

He probably has 3 GG because he is Derek Jeter more than he is Ozzie Smith with the glove of course..
But I am not going to sit here and accept that he is the worst defensive SS in the game.
The guy is not a butcher for goodness sake..
That about sums it up.

teknetic
02-20-08, 11:45 AM
Oh yeah? How about throwing A-Rod under the bus in 2006?

Just when you thought the dead horse couldn't be beat any harder..

Mean Linguine
02-20-08, 05:05 PM
This Thread has no credibility after a statement like that...
That might be the most assanine statement ever on any Thread.
:-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock-

Don't know why your navy blue stirrups are in such a twist. Was just making a light-hearted statement about how the team has won a lot every year since he has been shortstop, so how bad can he be.
Hope you didn't kick the dog over it.

Edit: And after re-reading the thread and seeing your posts, I see you're a big Jete fan, too -- so truce.....

Since95
02-20-08, 07:10 PM
Don't know why your navy blue stirrups are in such a twist. Was just making a light-hearted statement about how the team has won a lot every year since he has been shortstop, so how bad can he be.
Hope you didn't kick the dog over it.

Edit: And after re-reading the thread and seeing your posts, I see you're a big Jete fan, too -- so truce.....

Didn't mean to jump all over your comment like that.. but the season is about to start.. I'm excited.... do I need to be reading jeter stinks right now... sorry I missed the sarcasm.. my apologizes.

yanksphan
02-20-08, 07:35 PM
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20080220/i/r2579115239.jpg

"Seriously? Last? Damn...."

Mr. Smith
02-20-08, 07:56 PM
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20080220/i/r2579115239.jpg

"Seriously? Last? Damn...."

Somehow I doubt Jeter is losing sleep over any of this.

Mean Linguine
02-20-08, 08:42 PM
Didn't mean to jump all over your comment like that.. but the season is about to start.. I'm excited.... do I need to be reading jeter stinks right now... sorry I missed the sarcasm.. my apologizes.

Agreed. In other years, I've tried to focus on the good sides of Jeter's fielding -- the way he takes charge on fly balls (diving into the stands while A-Rod jogged nearby, jumping over Robby to catch a ball in center field), the incredible jump throws from short left field, the smarts that allowed him to anticipate the shuffle pass, etc. But you know what? Some people think Jeter is not a good fielder, and we will never change their minds. My eyes tell me he is a sure-handed, sometimes spectacular fielder, and nobody can change my mind, either.
Best to you, and enjoy the season........

DisabledMess
02-20-08, 08:48 PM
What about the intagibles like when he ran into the stands, actually dove head first and broke his tooth? What about that play in the playoffs, the back handed flip to get Giambi? I have a hard time thinking that Jeter is a bad fielding shortstop.

jeterismyhomeboy
02-20-08, 09:03 PM
What about the intagibles like when he ran into the stands, actually dove head first and broke his tooth? What about that play in the playoffs, the back handed flip to get Giambi? I have a hard time thinking that Jeter is a bad fielding shortstop.

Okay, to keep this simple:

How often does Jeter have to make those types of plays?

How often does Jeter have to field grounders?

Literally, the plays you're thinking about are TWO out of the last SEVEN years. Two plays out of 1134 games. We're not even talking about chances he gets. So basically, because he made two really awesome outs out of the minimum 30,618 chances for outs in the last seven years, he's a really good shortstop?

No.

DisabledMess
02-20-08, 09:37 PM
Okay, to keep this simple:

How often does Jeter have to make those types of plays?

How often does Jeter have to field grounders?

Literally, the plays you're thinking about are TWO out of the last SEVEN years. Two plays out of 1134 games. We're not even talking about chances he gets. So basically, because he made two really awesome outs out of the minimum 30,618 chances for outs in the last seven years, he's a really good shortstop?

No.

I never notice him making bad plays. Sorry but I'm a biased Yankee fan, I'll admit that and I'll admit that I have a hard time believing things that I don't like to hear about them.

yanksphan
02-21-08, 07:11 AM
I never notice him making bad plays. Sorry but I'm a biased Yankee fan, I'll admit that and I'll admit that I have a hard time believing things that I don't like to hear about them.

It's not that he makes bad plays - he rarely does.

It's the plays he doesn't make because of limited range that gets him on the bottom of this list.

JL25and3
02-21-08, 08:26 AM
What about the intagibles like when he ran into the stands, actually dove head first and broke his tooth? What about that play in the playoffs, the back handed flip to get Giambi? I have a hard time thinking that Jeter is a bad fielding shortstop.I've seen Jason Giambi make a few terrific plays at first base. It doesn't mean he's a good first baseman.

KLJ
02-21-08, 08:27 AM
He'd be a butcher if he could get to enough balls to butcher them. He can't.

:lol: perfectly said

KLJ
02-21-08, 08:32 AM
Derek Jeter: mediocre fielder; ...
i wish he was medicre

apalradio
02-21-08, 08:45 AM
Look, let's acknowledge that Jeter has limited range up the middle. That's not the question. The real question is - would you trade his defensive shortcomings for all the other things he does to help win games and lead this team? He's a tremendous player, and using the word "stinks" is juvenile and inappropriate.

KLJ
02-21-08, 08:54 AM
The real question is - would you trade his defensive shortcomings for all the other things he does to help win games and lead this team?
he can do all those things to help the team win from another position.. a position where he is not killing the team defensively..

yanksphan
02-21-08, 09:00 AM
Look, let's acknowledge that Jeter has limited range up the middle. That's not the question. The real question is - would you trade his defensive shortcomings for all the other things he does to help win games and lead this team? He's a tremendous player, and using the word "stinks" is juvenile and inappropriate.

If you'd like to start that topic - then by all means, please do so. I doubt there will be much discussion as I don't think anyone would make that trade-off.

But when you're ranked last in the entire league in a particular discipline - "stinks" is pretty appropriate and actually rather mild.

JL25and3
02-21-08, 09:23 AM
Look, let's acknowledge that Jeter has limited range up the middle. That's not the question. The real question is - would you trade his defensive shortcomings for all the other things he does to help win games and lead this team? He's a tremendous player, and using the word "stinks" is juvenile and inappropriate.You're right, the word "stinks" was a bad choice. He's a poor defensive shortstop. But I don't think anyone here would trade the last 12+ years of Derek Jeter for someone more Neifi!riffic.

BRNXBMRS
02-21-08, 09:46 AM
Jeter was in a good mood after the workout, teasing reporters that Girardi knew how to handle the "biggest obstacle here for a manager - the media" and laughing off a recent study by a researcher from the University of Pennsylvania that ranked him one of the game's worst defensive shortstops.

"I just heard about that a little while ago," Jeter said. "I said it was a computer glitch. I'm computer illiterate anyway, so I don't think it really matters."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/02/21/2008-02-21_derek_jeter_can_deal_with_joe_girardi.html

R.V.47
02-21-08, 09:48 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/02/21/2008-02-21_derek_jeter_can_deal_with_joe_girardi.html

Imagine if A-Rod said that same quote, backpage of the Daily News would be: A-literate, Alex admidts he cant read.

BRNXBMRS
02-21-08, 09:50 AM
Imagine if A-Rod said that same quote, backpage of the Daily News would be: A-literate, Alex admidts he cant read.

Lupica would have went crazy.

yanksphan
02-21-08, 09:51 AM
What I want to know is why isn't Alex defending Jeter?

Clearly they still hate each other.

KLJ
02-21-08, 09:56 AM
What I want to know is why isn't Alex defending Jeter?

Clearly they still hate each other.
arod isn't the captain (intangibles)

MissingBillyMartin
02-21-08, 10:34 AM
I am shocked people who claim to watch the Yankee games still think Jeter is a very good defensive shortstop. It was kind of like that golden glove he won two years ago for being the best offensive shortstop. If he didn't have ARod to his right he would be even worse as he wouldn't to cheat to his left as much. Jeter is a Hall of Fame talent but he really isn't a Major League Shortstop anymore. The fact the he is an amazing leader, clutch hitter, and had some amazing plays years ago does not mean he is a good defensive player. I rather Betemit playing Shortstop when it is late and we are winning at this point.

Abe Frohman
02-21-08, 11:27 AM
Seriously. Its not that he makes bad plays, its that he doesnt MAKE the plays

period. he cant get to the damned GB for us to judge if the play was either bad or not.

Everyone is excited for the season to start right ? Well, play close attention this

season to Captain clutch and how limited his range is. Any ball hit in the vicinity of

SS to Jeter's left is 99.9% to be a base hit. he is atrocious to his left. That whole up

the middle between 2nd n SS is WIDE OPEN for dribblers and GB's and the whole

league knows it. Cano can only do so much. i vividly remember us playing the Angels

last year and Orlando Cabrera making Jeter look like a chump at SS. Remember that Sept.

series against Seattle. go back to those games and pay attention to Yuniesky Betancourts

range compared to DJ. i remember these games like it was yesterday. If Jeter really wants to

be a valuable member of this team for the remainder of his career, he'd offer to move to

1st base or something and let the Organization start searching for his replacement as he isnt

going to get any better or younger.

MissingBillyMartin
02-21-08, 12:24 PM
Jeter's range may be better if he didn't try to jump up in the air and flair his body around every play. Though if he just planted his feet, people would soon realize that a lot more effort goes into making those "spectualar" plays than getting to the ball.

Who do you think is a worse fielder than Jeter at SS in the AL? I am curious to see what people think. I honestly can't think of any shortstop with such limited range.

yanksphan
02-21-08, 12:26 PM
Pheralta might be close.

Bub
02-21-08, 12:38 PM
Literally, the plays you're thinking about are TWO out of the last SEVEN years. Two plays out of 1134 games. We're not even talking about chances he gets. So basically, because he made two really awesome outs out of the minimum 30,618 chances for outs in the last seven years, he's a really good shortstop? No.Last year alone he made about 15 to 20 outstanding plays, some worthy of Sportscenter highlights. Some of the gamethreads went on and on about some of them. I don't agree with anyone who thinks he's less than average since he can come in or go back on a ball as well as anyone, and he rarely seems to make a bad play at an inopportune time. He may change positions down the road, but I'm fine with him at SS for now.

fredgmuggs
02-21-08, 12:50 PM
Last year alone he made about 15 to 20 outstanding plays, some worthy of Sportscenter highlights. Some of the gamethreads went on and on about some of them. I don't agree with anyone who thinks he's less than average since he can come in or go back on a ball as well as anyone, and he rarely seems to make a bad play at an inopportune time. He may change positions down the road, but I'm fine with him at SS for now.Jeter has limitations on his range and that affects his defensive value... but the term I've seen describing him as a "butcher" in this thread is silly. He has reliable hands and a reliable throwing arm and when a ball is hit to him I'm not concerned in the least about him booting it or throwing it into the stands. Now if he has to move for the ball, that's a concern. But for the most part an out is out with Jeter in the field... he's just not going to turn many hits into outs.

If these guys wanted to see a butcher, then they should've been around when Bobby Meacham was throwing the ball from SS.

MaximMan121
02-21-08, 12:58 PM
Seriously. Its not that he makes bad plays, its that he doesnt MAKE the plays

period. he cant get to the damned GB for us to judge if the play was either bad or not.

Everyone is excited for the season to start right ? Well, play close attention this

season to Captain clutch and how limited his range is. Any ball hit in the vicinity of

SS to Jeter's left is 99.9% to be a base hit. he is atrocious to his left. That whole up

the middle between 2nd n SS is WIDE OPEN for dribblers and GB's and the whole

league knows it. Cano can only do so much. i vividly remember us playing the Angels

last year and Orlando Cabrera making Jeter look like a chump at SS. Remember that Sept.

series against Seattle. go back to those games and pay attention to Yuniesky Betancourts

range compared to DJ. i remember these games like it was yesterday. If Jeter really wants to

be a valuable member of this team for the remainder of his career, he'd offer to move to

1st base or something and let the Organization start searching for his replacement as he isnt

going to get any better or younger.

He'd be no more than a decent 1B, because the stats that come from that position are much higher. If he wants to remain a premium player, he ought to look at CF.

This is all silly anyhow. Who the heck would we have play SS if we moved Jeter? Arod would be no more than passable at this stage of his career, and then who plays 3B?

I can just hope and pray that opening day of 2010, Derek Jeter is the starting CF.

ChinMusic
02-21-08, 02:07 PM
I think the whole "pasta divingjeter" thing is way overblown.

The fact is, Jeter almost never dives for ground balls at all.

He knows how to recognize a futile situation.

metalboy15
02-21-08, 02:46 PM
Alex Rodriguez predicted about 30 minutes ago that Derek Jeter would win the MVP and that Bobby Abreu would have a monster year.

“I think Jeter is going to have an MVP season. That’s my prediction for the year,” Rodriguez said. “And Bobby’s going to have a monster year.”

Why Jeter?

“I think he’s going to have an explosive, monster season. I think he’s in great shape. I think he did some great things this winter with his workouts. I’m very excited for his year.”

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/02/21/a-rod-jeter-will-win-mvp/

yanksphan
02-21-08, 02:49 PM
This concerns me. Obviously A-Rod isn't going to try very hard this year.

Yankees13
02-21-08, 02:51 PM
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/02/21/a-rod-jeter-will-win-mvp/
A-Rod must doubt his ability to replicate his 07, or 05 seasons, if he thinks Jeter has any shot at the MVP.

chisox
02-21-08, 03:01 PM
Here is the report

Spatial Aggregate Fielding Evaluation (http://stat.wharton.upenn.edu/~stjensen/research/safe.html)

YESSIR!
02-21-08, 03:01 PM
He'd be no more than a decent 1B, because the stats that come from that position are much higher. If he wants to remain a premium player, he ought to look at CF.

This is all silly anyhow. Who the heck would we have play SS if we moved Jeter? Arod would be no more than passable at this stage of his career, and then who plays 3B?

I can just hope and pray that opening day of 2010, Derek Jeter is the starting CF.

Wait, how can Jeter play CF if he has no range at SS? I'm not patronizing, just curious about the logic involved. Does he just have a problem picking up the ball off the bat, or exploding from a set position?

Can someone explain what exactly makes Jeter such a poor defensive SS? I mean, besides just, "he has no range." Why doesn't he have range? He still has pretty good speed.

I just don't think there's anyway he's the worse defensive SS in baseball, though admittedly, I don't know enough about every other SS in baseball to compare them individually.

edit: maybe I should have read the study that was linked first. Pretty cool analysis.

metalboy15
02-21-08, 03:06 PM
Can someone explain what exactly makes Jeter such a poor defensive SS? I mean, besides just, "he has no range." Why doesn't he have range? He still has pretty good speed.
Footwork.


I just don't think there's anyway he's the worse defensive SS in baseball, though admittedly, I don't know enough about every other SS in baseball to compare them individually.
Hanley Ramirez is the worst defensive SS in the league.

Jhonny Peralta is really bad as well.

YESSIR!
02-21-08, 03:12 PM
Footwork.

Ok, seems a little simplistic, but I can dig it. Dude needs to brush up on his Dance Dance Revolution.

yanksphan
02-21-08, 03:17 PM
If you get a chance - watch guys like Adam Everett or Khalil Green when they move towards a ball.

Jasbro
02-21-08, 03:22 PM
Okay, to keep this simple:

How often does Jeter have to make those types of plays?

How often does Jeter have to field grounders?

Literally, the plays you're thinking about are TWO out of the last SEVEN years. Two plays out of 1134 games. We're not even talking about chances he gets. So basically, because he made two really awesome outs out of the minimum 30,618 chances for outs in the last seven years, he's a really good shortstop?

No.

C'mon. I don't think Jeter is good to his left, but how many guys are better than he is to his right? He is below average to his left, above average to his right, average to above average straight on, above average on pop outs, and has an above average arm and good hands. So while spurious and subjectively-based defensive metrics may make him a crappy fantasy or Strato-shortsop, he is a net asset at short in real baseball games.

And 30,618 minimum chances? You are holding Jeter accountable for every out in every 9-inning game over 7 years?

Bub
02-21-08, 03:34 PM
Because it was the title of the article? :dunno:The title of the article is "Statheads Speak: Derek Jeter, you stink!" Your thread title looks like the choice of words is coming from you, not from the article.

b_joseph
02-21-08, 03:45 PM
I cant believe that this is still going.

Jeter at SS is not going to determine whether we win a Ring or not. He will make an adequate amount of plays at SS and has a better bat than nearly every SS that is currently playing that position at the moment.


Oy Vey

yanksphan
02-21-08, 03:45 PM
The title of the article is "Statheads Speak: Derek Jeter, you stink!" Your thread title looks like the choice of words is coming from you, not from the article.

and what's so unclear about that? did you expect the study to find something completely different than what we've all known to be true for the past few years?

his defense stinks - I think many people here have no problem acknowledging that. it has nothing to do with him as a complete player - just one aspect of his game.

but I decided to change my avatar and CUT to make those who don't see it happy. ;)

Bub
02-21-08, 03:47 PM
and what's so unclear about that? did you expect the study to find something completely different than what we've all known to be true for the past few years?

his defense stinks - I think many people here have no problem acknowledging that. it has nothing to do with him as a complete player - just one aspect of his game.

but I decided to change my avatar and CUT to make those who don't see it happy. ;)My point is that stating such is a violation of our community standards regarding bashing of players. It's not a good choice of words.

yanksphan
02-21-08, 03:59 PM
If it were a problem, I'm sure the mods would have adjusted it.

I think "Jeter stinks" would be a violation.

"Jeter still stinks" is a play to Yankee fans who already realize his shortcomings and shouldn't (I thought) require much acumen.

yankeeman61
02-21-08, 04:59 PM
If it were a problem, I'm sure the mods would have adjusted it.

I think "Jeter stinks" would be a violation.

"Jeter still stinks" is a play to Yankee fans who already realize his shortcomings and shouldn't (I thought) require much acumen.

Is it really so important for you to convince fans who disagree with you that "Jeter Stinks", you subsequently find it necessary to go to such lengths as to imbed the diss into your avatar? Since you admitted that "Jeter stinks" would be a CS violation, then why do it and what do you hope to gain?

yanksphan
02-21-08, 05:02 PM
I'm sorry you don't see the humor in it.

I'm glad the mods do.

yankeeman61
02-21-08, 05:12 PM
I'm sorry you don't see the humor in it.

I'm glad the mods do.

So, you are violating CS for ..... a "laugh" ?

Snatch Catch
02-21-08, 05:12 PM
Is it really so important for you to convince fans who disagree with you that "Jeter Stinks", you subsequently find it necessary to go to such lengths as to imbed the diss into your avatar? Since you admitted that "Jeter stinks" would be a CS violation, then why do it and what do you hope to gain?


As die-hard and passionate of Jeter fans as many in this thread would claim to be, you'd think more would get the joke of his CUT.

yanksphan
02-21-08, 05:14 PM
So, you are violating CS for ..... a "laugh" ?

Do you know what that picture is of?

Rich
02-21-08, 05:15 PM
I think the Jeter issue comes down to his ZR. It was .765 last season, the worst of his career. If that was due to his knee problem, and he get it back to at least the .810 it was in 2006, they can live with his defense. If it's still in the same range it was in 2007, it's time for Cash or Girardi to have a heart to heart with him about moving to another position.

yankeeman61
02-21-08, 05:21 PM
Do you know what that picture is of?

I believe it must be his .....cologne? Am I right? Is that the funny part?

yanksphan
02-21-08, 05:25 PM
I believe it must be his .....cologne? Am I right? Is that the funny part?

It is his cologne.

But that's no longer the funny part.

R.V.47
02-21-08, 05:26 PM
I think the Jeter issue comes down to his ZR. It was .765 last season, the worst of his career. If that was due to his knee problem, and he get it back to at least the .810 it was in 2006, they can live with his defense. If it's still in the same range it was in 2007, it's time for Cash or Girardi to have a heart to heart with him about moving to another position.

I agree, I think Jeter had a lot of nagging injuries last year that hurt his defense. It wont be great this year but will definitly be be better than last year.

yankeeman61
02-21-08, 05:29 PM
It is his cologne.

But that's no longer the funny part.

I agree

yanksphan
02-21-08, 05:54 PM
I agree

Somehow, I doubt that.

MaximMan121
02-21-08, 06:12 PM
Wait, how can Jeter play CF if he has no range at SS? I'm not patronizing, just curious about the logic involved. Does he just have a problem picking up the ball off the bat, or exploding from a set position?

Can someone explain what exactly makes Jeter such a poor defensive SS? I mean, besides just, "he has no range." Why doesn't he have range? He still has pretty good speed.

I just don't think there's anyway he's the worse defensive SS in baseball, though admittedly, I don't know enough about every other SS in baseball to compare them individually.

edit: maybe I should have read the study that was linked first. Pretty cool analysis.

SS is the toughest defensive position to fill for a reason-- (well, catcher's sort of a whole different game from the rest of the field, but let's just go with non-catcher/pitcher fielding positions). It requires extremely quick reactions and solid footwork.

You'll see Jeter get to most plays to his right pretty regularly, and if he doesn't, A-Rod tends to get them for him. To his left, however, he's atrocious. He just doesn't move quick enough off of contact to get to balls anywhere in the general area of "up the middle".

Now, in CF, his speed would be helpful getting to balls, as well as his flyball instincts which seem to be spot on. You've got a much larger margin of error at that position, however, as you have more time to utilize your speed. Assuming his pop up instincts travelled with him to CF< he'd likely be top notch (no ichiro, but pretty darn good) with a fairly solid arm to boot.

JL25and3
02-21-08, 06:19 PM
Wait, how can Jeter play CF if he has no range at SS? I'm not patronizing, just curious about the logic involved. Does he just have a problem picking up the ball off the bat, or exploding from a set position?

Can someone explain what exactly makes Jeter such a poor defensive SS? I mean, besides just, "he has no range." Why doesn't he have range? He still has pretty good speed.

I just don't think there's anyway he's the worse defensive SS in baseball, though admittedly, I don't know enough about every other SS in baseball to compare them individually.

edit: maybe I should have read the study that was linked first. Pretty cool analysis.Shortstop isn't really about speed. It's the footwork, as someone said, and about that quick first step or two. (Also about positioning and anticipation; those are hard for me to judge, but Jeter doesn't seem to be able to use them to overcome his lack of range.)

CF is much more of a speed position. When Bernie was young, his first step was in the wrong direction almost every time, but he had the speed to outrun just about anything anyway. I think Jeter could cover plenty of ground without having to worry about that initial quickness quite as much. Also, we know that he tracks popups well, and I like to think that would translate well to fly balls.

Having said all that: Jeter to CF was a move I was advocating 4-5 years ago. I don't know if it will still work so well in a year or two.

rodney27nyg
02-21-08, 07:42 PM
Accordin to Gene Michael, the article is BS.

Jeter has worked on different things (to change that perception of him) this off-season.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10658485

Yankees13
02-21-08, 10:26 PM
Accordin to Gene Michael, the article is BS.

Jeter has worked on different things (to change that perception of him) this off-season.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10658485
What else is he going to say? Anyway his criticisms aren't valid, because those things are accounted for in fielding studies (sinkerball staff or not, that kind of thing).

jeterismyhomeboy
02-22-08, 01:57 AM
C'mon. I don't think Jeter is good to his left, but how many guys are better than he is to his right? He is below average to his left, above average to his right, average to above average straight on, above average on pop outs, and has an above average arm and good hands. So while spurious and subjectively-based defensive metrics may make him a crappy fantasy or Strato-shortsop, he is a net asset at short in real baseball games.

And 30,618 minimum chances? You are holding Jeter accountable for every out in every 9-inning game over 7 years?

Two things:

1. Jeter is average to his right. He actually makes it look harder than it is. The jump throw, which I love, is actually unnecessary. Any other shortstop plants his feet. I guess that's why they look "average" and "boring" and DJ looks amazing.

2. I was talking about not just Jeter's chances for outs, but the bigger picture. Think about every amazing play by anyone on that defense. Why do Jeter's amazing plays get rated higher out of all those outs (and there are obviously more because of extra inning games)? He made two amazing plays, two amazing outs out of over 30,618 outs the team made. Those are the ones people are using to say that he's a great defensive shortstop. But when you think about it, they're a fraction of a drop in the bucket of fielding on his own team.

The outs he fails to record (mostly because he allows them to become hits) are a bigger deal. And there are lots and lots of them. But he makes up for it with his bat. At some point in his decline, his bat will not make up for defensive shortcomings (which will become so atrocious even Jeter will have to admit to it). Before that time comes, it is important that Jeter move to a less-demanding defensive position.

rodney27nyg
02-22-08, 05:10 AM
Two things:

1. Jeter is average to his right. He actually makes it look harder than it is. The jump throw, which I love, is actually unnecessary. Any other shortstop plants his feet. I guess that's why they look "average" and "boring" and DJ looks amazing.

2. I was talking about not just Jeter's chances for outs, but the bigger picture. Think about every amazing play by anyone on that defense. Why do Jeter's amazing plays get rated higher out of all those outs (and there are obviously more because of extra inning games)? He made two amazing plays, two amazing outs out of over 30,618 outs the team made. Those are the ones people are using to say that he's a great defensive shortstop. But when you think about it, they're a fraction of a drop in the bucket of fielding on his own team.

The outs he fails to record (mostly because he allows them to become hits) are a bigger deal. And there are lots and lots of them. But he makes up for it with his bat. At some point in his decline, his bat will not make up for defensive shortcomings (which will become so atrocious even Jeter will have to admit to it). Before that time comes, it is important that Jeter move to a less-demanding defensive position.

No offense, Jete, but DJ has made a heck of a lot more than 2 great defensive plays. In the "slide, jeremy, slide" game he made 2 different amazing plays alone.

R.V.47
02-23-08, 10:06 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/02/23/2008-02-23_derek_jeter_intends_to_play_shortstop_fo-2.html

Disapointing news for all of the anti DJ at short people. I say more power to him. As long as hes in good enough shape to play the position I think he has the right to be there. He is the kind of player that will let Girardi know when its time for him to move.

mhmajp
02-23-08, 10:38 AM
So our board musings and complaints apparently do not go unheard:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/02/22/yankees.chamberlain.ap/index.html

"A lot of agility, a lot of lateral movement, a lot of explosive stuff to try and get quicker, faster and move around a little bit better," Jeter said. "Last year I had some problems with legs. You do whatever you can do to try to strengthen your legs."

Jeter seems to think that his lateral movement is a problem as well, and if an athlete of his caliber is working on it, he should be able to improve it, at least somewhat.

Yankees13
02-23-08, 02:38 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/02/23/2008-02-23_derek_jeter_intends_to_play_shortstop_fo-2.html

Disapointing news for all of the anti DJ at short people. I say more power to him. As long as hes in good enough shape to play the position I think he has the right to be there. He is the kind of player that will let Girardi know when its time for him to move.
Should be disappointing news for anybody. Jeter in the article sure doesn't sound like someone who is going to move for the good of the team. He has no right to play SS if it hurts the team, and that kind of thinking has hurt the Yankees in the past. The manager should decide when he wants Jeter to move, not the other way around. Derek Jeter or not, a player's wishes and ego is subservient to the will of the manager.

ojo
02-23-08, 05:23 PM
this would be good news if his range/right was an issue isolated to last year.

of course, it wasn't. it's been this way for years.

Dirty Coke
02-24-08, 01:26 AM
Should be disappointing news for anybody. Jeter in the article sure doesn't sound like someone who is going to move for the good of the team. He has no right to play SS if it hurts the team, and that kind of thinking has hurt the Yankees in the past. The manager should decide when he wants Jeter to move, not the other way around. Derek Jeter or not, a player's wishes and ego is subservient to the will of the manager.

Hopefully, in the end it won't be up to him.

Yankees1962
02-24-08, 05:28 AM
Should be disappointing news for anybody. Jeter in the article sure doesn't sound like someone who is going to move for the good of the team. He has no right to play SS if it hurts the team, and that kind of thinking has hurt the Yankees in the past. The manager should decide when he wants Jeter to move, not the other way around. Derek Jeter or not, a player's wishes and ego is subservient to the will of the manager.
He doesn't say he won't move if he's hurting the team just that it's not time to move and that he hopes it isn't for a long time to come.

I think this season will go a long way in determining Jeter's future at SS because after his contract expires I'm sure one of the things that will be determine and agreed upon is whether he stays at SS beyond 2010.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02242008/sports/yankees/geeks_got_it_right_99135.htm

DisabledMess
02-24-08, 06:59 AM
Jeter is the captain plus he's a draw because women like him. I find it hard for the Yankees not to give him an extension when the time comes.

yanksphan
02-24-08, 07:53 AM
Jeter is the captain plus he's a draw because women like him. I find it hard for the Yankees not to give him an extension when the time comes.

Which might be relevant if this were American Idol, but....

Stupid Flanders
02-24-08, 08:50 AM
]As long as hes in good enough shape to play the position I think he has the right to be there. He is the kind of player that will let Girardi know when its time for him to move.
I doubt it. Jeter seems like the type to be unable to evaluate his diminishing skills and would attempt to "gut it out" for his entire career at short.

KLJ
02-25-08, 08:31 AM
Jeter seems like the type to be unable to evaluate his diminishing skills and would attempt to "gut it out" for his entire career at short.
i agree.. he will never realize that he can no longer handle the position.. he needs to be told to move

apalradio
02-25-08, 08:51 AM
Cal Ripken was also often criticized for his diminishing range and his selfish desire to play every single game. Some days off would improve his play, it was argued. Ripken stayed true to his goals, stayed in the lineup despite the criticisms, and played his way into the Hall of Fame. Some players, like Jeter, deserve enough respect to let them play regardless of the pundits demanding otherwise.

justinvarnes
02-25-08, 09:40 AM
All this is moot until the Yankees have a legitimate SS to supplant DJ. A-Rod isn't moving back there, so let's just kill that now (for a myriad of reasons).

Once the Yanks have some great prospect in AAA that's an offensive and defensive star at SS, then Jeter will get moved. It's how most these things end up: Ripken was replaced for a prospect, so was Ozzie. Until then who would replace him when he moves to 1B or DH? Adam Everett? Alberto Gonzalez?

Compass Rosy
02-26-08, 03:50 PM
Cal Ripken was also often criticized for his diminishing range and his selfish desire to play every single game. Some days off would improve his play, it was argued. Ripken stayed true to his goals, stayed in the lineup despite the criticisms
and moved to 3rd base for the last few years of his career ...

justtxyank
02-26-08, 04:19 PM
Cal Ripken was also often criticized for his diminishing range and his selfish desire to play every single game. Some days off would improve his play, it was argued. Ripken stayed true to his goals, stayed in the lineup despite the criticisms, and played his way into the Hall of Fame. Some players, like Jeter, deserve enough respect to let them play regardless of the pundits demanding otherwise.

And it undoubtedly DID hurt his team when he refused to take a day off.

Dave Visbeck
02-27-08, 02:25 PM
So would it be better if Jeter was at third and Alex was at short?

The three consecutive Gold Gloves, from 2004-2006, don't mean anything at all?

Mr. Mxylsplk
02-27-08, 02:42 PM
So would it be better if Jeter was at third and Alex was at short?

I don't know what would be better now that A-Rod's been away from SS for so many seasons, but I certainly think that would have been better when he first came here.


The three consecutive Gold Gloves, from 2004-2006, don't mean anything at all?
I don't think they mean anything at all in terms of an accurate measurement of his defensive abilities. I think people can reasonably disagree where Jeter ranks among major league shortstops defensively, or whether or not the team would be better if he played 1B or CF and was replaced by a league-average SS. But in my opinion people cannot reasonably think Jeter was the best defensive SS, or close to the best defensive SS, in any of those years. IMO, Jeter winning the Gold Glove means only that the voting for the award is done by people incapable of or uninterested in evaluating players defensively. (Heck, based on Rafael Palmeiro's GG in '99, I'm not sure winning means anything other than that your name appears on the ballot).

justtxyank
02-27-08, 02:47 PM
So would it be better if Jeter was at third and Alex was at short?

The three consecutive Gold Gloves, from 2004-2006, don't mean anything at all?

I don't think Jeter would make a good 3rd baseman either. It would be better if Jeter was at first or the outfield though.

And no, the gold gloves don't mean anything at all.

Dave Visbeck
02-27-08, 05:57 PM
I don't know what would be better now that A-Rod's been away from SS for so many seasons, but I certainly think that would have been better when he first came here.

I don't think they mean anything at all in terms of an accurate measurement of his defensive abilities. I think people can reasonably disagree where Jeter ranks among major league shortstops defensively, or whether or not the team would be better if he played 1B or CF and was replaced by a league-average SS. But in my opinion people cannot reasonably think Jeter was the best defensive SS, or close to the best defensive SS, in any of those years. IMO, Jeter winning the Gold Glove means only that the voting for the award is done by people incapable of or uninterested in evaluating players defensively. (Heck, based on Rafael Palmeiro's GG in '99, I'm not sure winning means anything other than that your name appears on the ballot).

I said something about that in the past. When A-Rod first came over and was showing his problems at third right off ... and the fans were sort of getting on him, I thought that maybe it would of been a good thing for the captain to step up and play third instead. A-Rod was defensively the better shortstop when he arrived. What about the talk back then about possibly being the center fielder? Was it always a no-way of happening with Jeter because of his pride? What about having done something like that position changing for the better of the team?

Didn't the Yankees, back then, have some young guy that was a good defensive third baseman possibility in their ranks? Or was that another possible trade thing that was ever talked about? A ??? at third, A-Rod at short and Jeter in center field?

Dave Visbeck
02-27-08, 06:03 PM
And no, the gold gloves don't mean anything at all.

But why not? Is it like the Rookie of the Year Award, (National League ;) ) going to Ryan "Clink" Braun, in the just past season. Talk about an iron glove! :eek: What a joke pick. Guy fielded just .895 at third - compared with a great young shortstop that can also do things with a bat ... shortstop, Troy Tulowitzki .987! What is up with the award picks? :wtf:

Mr. Mxylsplk
02-27-08, 08:12 PM
But why not? Is it like the Rookie of the Year Award, (National League ;) ) going to Ryan "Clink" Braun, in the just past season. Talk about an iron glove! :eek: What a joke pick. Guy fielded just .895 at third - compared with a great young shortstop that can also do things with a bat ... shortstop, Troy Tulowitzki .987! What is up with the award picks? :wtf:
I don't think that was a joke at all. Braun put up offensive numbers that would have been mvp caliber if he'd played a full season. His defense wasn't good, his offense was overwhelmingly good. I don't think it's remotely unreasonable to vote him as the better rookie overall.

Mr. Mxylsplk
02-27-08, 08:13 PM
Didn't the Yankees, back then, have some young guy that was a good defensive third baseman possibility in their ranks? Or was that another possible trade thing that was ever talked about? A ??? at third, A-Rod at short and Jeter in center field?
I have no recollection of any minor leaguer or potential trade that fits this description.

yanksphan
02-27-08, 08:43 PM
Didn't the Yankees, back then, have some young guy that was a good defensive third baseman possibility in their ranks? Or was that another possible trade thing that was ever talked about? A ??? at third, A-Rod at short and Jeter in center field?




I have no recollection of any minor leaguer or potential trade that fits this description.

Eric Duncan. He wasn't much, but he was all we had for a while.

He's not doin so hot now Dave.

Allan
02-27-08, 08:54 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/02/23/2008-02-23_derek_jeter_intends_to_play_shortstop_fo-2.html

Disapointing news for all of the anti DJ at short people. I say more power to him. As long as hes in good enough shape to play the position I think he has the right to be there. He is the kind of player that will let Girardi know when its time for him to move.
The right to be there? I think this notion of entitlement is part of the problem. What gives him this right to which you refer?

DisabledMess
02-27-08, 09:00 PM
The right to be there? I think this notion of entitlement is part of the problem. What gives him this right to which you refer?

I feel the right to entitlement is that he is a Yankee legend and deserves to be there as long as he wants. Plus, it shows how Yankee management treats players and it makes free agents want to come to New York. If they were to ever drop Jeter, it wouldn't be good move for the Yankees PR.

Dirty Coke
02-27-08, 09:08 PM
I feel the right to entitlement is that he is a Yankee legend and deserves to be there as long as he wants. Plus, it shows how Yankee management treats players and it makes free agents want to come to New York. If they were to ever drop Jeter, it wouldn't be good move for the Yankees PR.

There are so many problems wrong with this statement. The Yankees first and foremost should be concerned with putting the best team on the field. If it bruises Jeter's ego to be moved before he's ready, it shows more about him as a person and player than it does about the Yankees organization.

YASS
02-27-08, 09:10 PM
I feel the right to entitlement is that he is a Yankee legend and deserves to be there as long as he wants. Plus, it shows how Yankee management treats players and it makes free agents want to come to New York. If they were to ever drop Jeter, it wouldn't be good move for the Yankees PR.
Bernie is at least Jeter's equal as a Yankee legend, and he wasn't accorded the right to play his position badly. Why should Jeter be given that privilege?

DisabledMess
02-27-08, 09:16 PM
Bernie is at least Jeter's equal as a Yankee legend, and he wasn't accorded the right to play his position badly. Why should Jeter be given that privilege?

Because he's Derek Jeter. No, really, it shows how Yankee management treats players and Bernie was never as good as Jeter and Jeter is a once in a lifetime player so you have to treat him like he wants to be treated. If I was running the Yankees, I'd say, Jeter, play as long as you want and where you want and other players from other teams will see this and they'll want to come to the Yankees.

DisabledMess
02-27-08, 09:17 PM
Also, every situation is different.

YASS
02-27-08, 09:21 PM
Because he's Derek Jeter. No, really, it shows how Yankee management treats players and Bernie was never as good as Jeter and Jeter is a once in a lifetime player so you have to treat him like he wants to be treated. If I was running the Yankees, I'd say, Jeter, play as long as you want and where you want and other players from other teams will see this and they'll want to come to the Yankees.
That's a terrible way to run a ballclub.

Do you really think that the Yankees will make ballplayers ache to play in New York by treating their stars differently than the rest of the club?

jeterismyhomeboy
02-27-08, 09:24 PM
Because he's Derek Jeter. No, really, it shows how Yankee management treats players and Bernie was never as good as Jeter and Jeter is a once in a lifetime player so you have to treat him like he wants to be treated. If I was running the Yankees, I'd say, Jeter, play as long as you want and where you want and other players from other teams will see this and they'll want to come to the Yankees.

I love Derek Jeter....but he's kind of...not a once in a generation player. I mean, I suppose if you take the kind of media sensation that surrounds him, the ability to draw 99.5% of women in the New York metropolitan area and his ability to say everything and nothing at all, then yes, he's a player without equal. However, in actual baseball ability, he plays next to a guy who actually is a once-in-a-generation (or lifetime, whatever) player.

I don't want Jete's time with the team to be contentious, and I would love to send him out with fireworks and chanting and a World Series ring. But...he's not entitled to shortstop. No player is entitled to a position. Every player earns a spot on that field. If Jeter cannot earn his spot at shortstop in a given season, he must concede it. No player, manager or front office should endorse a person above the team.

DisabledMess
02-27-08, 10:09 PM
I love Derek Jeter....but he's kind of...not a once in a generation player. I mean, I suppose if you take the kind of media sensation that surrounds him, the ability to draw 99.5% of women in the New York metropolitan area and his ability to say everything and nothing at all, then yes, he's a player without equal. However, in actual baseball ability, he plays next to a guy who actually is a once-in-a-generation (or lifetime, whatever) player.

I don't want Jete's time with the team to be contentious, and I would love to send him out with fireworks and chanting and a World Series ring. But...he's not entitled to shortstop. No player is entitled to a position. Every player earns a spot on that field. If Jeter cannot earn his spot at shortstop in a given season, he must concede it. No player, manager or front office should endorse a person above the team.

I completely understand what you are saying. The Orioles did it with Ripken and they did a good job of it. If the Yankees do it the way the Orioles did it with Ripken, I'll be happy with that.

RogerNatural
02-27-08, 11:05 PM
Wow... makes me wish we had Smalley, Tolleson, Espinosa, or Fred Stanley again. And we let Fernandes go for this guy ? Well, maybe we can get Stick back out of retirement.

yanksphan
02-28-08, 07:16 AM
Because he's Derek Jeter. No, really, it shows how Yankee management treats players and Bernie was never as good as Jeter and Jeter is a once in a lifetime player so you have to treat him like he wants to be treated. If I was running the Yankees, I'd say, Jeter, play as long as you want and where you want and other players from other teams will see this and they'll want to come to the Yankees.

Just curious - have you ever particpated in team sports?

Bub
02-28-08, 07:28 AM
There are so many problems wrong with this statement. The Yankees first and foremost should be concerned with putting the best team on the field. If it bruises Jeter's ego to be moved before he's ready, it shows more about him as a person and player than it does about the Yankees organization.Star players have been allowed to go from great fielders to good fielders, and sometimes even to mediocre fielders for as long as this game has been played. I think most of the fans prefer it this way.

fredgmuggs
02-28-08, 07:40 AM
There are so many problems wrong with this statement. The Yankees first and foremost should be concerned with putting the best team on the field. If it bruises Jeter's ego to be moved before he's ready, it shows more about him as a person and player than it does about the Yankees organization.All that would show to me is Jeter is a normal person with a normal ego. People are making him out to be a bad guy for having human reactions and over something that apparently hasn't even happened yet.

OldYankeeFan
02-28-08, 08:38 AM
Star players have been allowed to go from great fielders to good fielders, and sometimes even to mediocre fielders for as long as this game has been played. I think most of the fans prefer it this way.
As long as the player is making a positive NET contribution to the team it makes sense to do so. I know I'm a minority here but I DON'T want Jeter moved. Who do you replace him with. I don't think we could do much better than the RS have done (since Nomar left) so who would you prefer...Renteria? Alex Gonzalez? Lugo?

According to SAFE they are better fielders and average 1.91 runs saved. Add that to Jeter's +13.81 and the difference is 15.72 runs per year. Now lets take a look at runs scored. The average runs scored (162 game avg per baseball-reference) for Renteria, Gonzalez and Lugo is 83. Jeter is 122. The run differential is 39. So for his position, Jeter is a NET 23.28 runs better than a comparable available replacement.

I stick with Jeter at SS until a much better NET option becomes available. And from the looks of Jeter (lost weight and concentrated on quickness and movement training in the off season) he might actually be improving his range this year.

YASS
02-28-08, 08:45 AM
As long as the player is making a positive NET contribution to the team it makes sense to do so. I know I'm a minority here but I DON'T want Jeter moved. Who do you replace him with. I don't think we could do much better than the RS have done (since Nomar left) so who would you prefer...Renteria? Alex Gonzalez? Lugo?

According to SAFE they are better fielders and average 1.91 runs saved. Add that to Jeter's +13.81 and the difference is 15.72 runs per year. Now lets take a look at runs scored. The average runs scored (162 game avg per baseball-reference) for Renteria, Gonzalez and Lugo is 83. Jeter is 122. The run differential is 39. So for his position, Jeter is a NET 23.28 runs better than a comparable available replacement.

I stick with Jeter at SS until a much better NET option becomes available. And from the looks of Jeter (lost weight and concentrated on quickness and movement training in the off season) he might actually be improving his range this year.
"Runs scored" is a very poor comparison to runs saved on defense. A better stat to use would be runs created.

But that's all beside the point. Jeter's offensive contribution is separate from his defense, and you'd get the same contribution from him if he played a different position. The object is to maximize the differential between runs on offense and runs allowed on defense. Now, there's an argument to be made that Jeter at shortstop is the optimal arrangement, but you haven't made it.

OldYankeeFan
02-28-08, 08:58 AM
"Runs scored" is a very poor comparison to runs saved on defense. A better stat to use would be runs created.

But that's all beside the point. Jeter's offensive contribution is separate from his defense, and you'd get the same contribution from him if he played a different position. The object is to maximize the differential between runs on offense and runs allowed on defense. Now, there's an argument to be made that Jeter at shortstop is the optimal arrangement, but you haven't made it.

I disagree. I think I've made it better than you have made it to the contrary. If not show me through whatever method you think is more appropriate who would have been an obtainable replacement that was a NET better SS (maybe you can get your friends at sosh to help you). Or are you trying to tell me that either Renteria, Gonzalez or Lugo is a better NET SS than Jeter? Really? Even if I look through your red tinted glasses it isn't even close.