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YASS
02-28-08, 08:01 AM
I disagree. I think I've made it better than you have made it to the contrary. If not show me through whatever method you think is more appropriate who would have been an obtainable replacement that was a NET better SS.
I haven't made any argument at all. I don't know the answer.

My only point was that comparing Jeter's "runs saved" on defense to the actual runs scored over the course of a season by other shortstops is not useful. The "runs scored" statistic tells us almost nothing about a player's offensive contribution.

Apples /= Oranges.

mhmajp
02-28-08, 08:18 AM
I disagree. I think I've made it better than you have made it to the contrary. If not show me through whatever method you think is more appropriate who would have been an obtainable replacement that was a NET better SS (maybe you can get your friends at sosh to help you). Or are you trying to tell me that either Renteria, Gonzalez or Lugo is a better NET SS than Jeter? Really? Even if I look through your red tinted glasses it isn't even close.

I think that the issue would be where you put Jeter and is it easier to get similar or better offensive production from that spot with someone other than Jeter. Jeter's offense, as a general matter, definitely outweighs his defense, and is better than those others you've mentioned. The question would be, can you replace him without losing too much AND then would his new position be better played by someone else with a higher offensive output.

I don't have the answers, of course, but it's always interesting to speculate.

R.V.47
02-28-08, 08:30 AM
http://www.podcastingnews.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/leave-britney-alone-guy.jpg

LEAVE DEREK ALONE

YankeePride1967
02-28-08, 08:37 AM
http://www.podcastingnews.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/leave-britney-alone-guy.jpg

LEAVE DEREK ALONE

Derek at SS for life man!!!!

Mr. Mxylsplk
02-28-08, 09:08 AM
I disagree. I think I've made it better than you have made it to the contrary. If not show me through whatever method you think is more appropriate who would have been an obtainable replacement that was a NET better SS (maybe you can get your friends at sosh to help you).
Unless the discussion is the current lineup comparet to an alternative lineup where Jeter is removed from the lineup altogether for a replacement SS, it doesn't seem like you made a particularly relevant argument. I'm pretty sure that has never been the discussion.

OldYankeeFan
02-28-08, 09:29 AM
Unless the discussion is the current lineup comparet to an alternative lineup where Jeter is removed from the lineup altogether for a replacement SS, it doesn't seem like you made a particularly relevant argument. I'm pretty sure that has never been the discussion.

I agree the discussion has always been just "lets move Jeter to _____ because his lack of range to his left gives up more runs than most other SS". But now out comes a stat that quantifies those runs per season (13.81).

So now I think it now becomes relevant that if Jeter is responsible for contributing more than 14 runs per year on offense more than another SS you would be better off keeping him there.

Mr. Mxylsplk
02-28-08, 10:50 AM
So now I think it now becomes relevant that if Jeter is responsible for contributing more than 14 runs per year on offense more than another SS you would be better off keeping him there.
Again, that's only relevant unless you're talking about removing Jeter from the lineup altogether. Sure, you lose some value at the SS position, but hopefully you gain value at whatever position you move Jeter to. You have to measure the impact on the lineup as a whole, not just at SS. It may certainly be the case that whatever change there is at the position Jeter is moved to falls short of off-setting the change at SS. But you're only better off keeping him there if that's the case, and you haven't addressed that at all.

Bologma!
02-28-08, 11:01 AM
Just switch him with Cano.

OldYankeeFan
02-28-08, 12:06 PM
Again, that's only relevant unless you're talking about removing Jeter from the lineup altogether. Sure, you lose some value at the SS position, but hopefully you gain value at whatever position you move Jeter to. You have to measure the impact on the lineup as a whole, not just at SS. It may certainly be the case that whatever change there is at the position Jeter is moved to falls short of off-setting the change at SS. But you're only better off keeping him there if that's the case, and you haven't addressed that at all.

OK, I'm presuming Jeter's worth at another position would be comparable to what the Yankees have gotten from the outside, and going forward what type of player they would probably acquire, and call it a draw. For example if jeter were to go to CF the Yankees would have made that change before Damon was signed so ... going into that year I'd call it comparable on who was worth more to a team on a combined offensive/defensive basis. Same at 1B where I beleive on a long term basis that the Yankees are able to acquire someone that has at least comparable offensive production to Jeters .

So that leaves comparing Jeter's overall offensive/defensive worth to that of his replacement. All I'm sayin' is that if the replacement produces less than Jeter offensively by what is = to 13 runs (using whever offensive measurement you want to calculate the worth of 13 runs), then the switch makes no sense.

cuban_yanksfan
02-28-08, 08:59 PM
Just switch him with Cano.

You can't be serious. Cano is just beginning to play second base like a major leaguer. He's doing really well and has progressed faster than expected under Larry Bowa, but he's not ready to play shortstop in the bigs.

stephsamps
03-01-08, 04:29 PM
As long as the player is making a positive NET contribution to the team it makes sense to do so. I know I'm a minority here but I DON'T want Jeter moved. Who do you replace him with. I don't think we could do much better than the RS have done (since Nomar left).

While you might be the minority in this particular thread, I doubt you are in the minority on this forum. This issue is brought up every year, several times a year and the same people say the same thing and a lot of needless venom is spewed. I just try not to get involved (just wanted to let you know you are not alone ;)).

yanksphan
05-20-08, 06:39 PM
*ahem*

b_joseph
05-20-08, 06:42 PM
Oh come on...a routine throwing mistake that every player makes and has made and will continue to make.

KLJ
05-20-08, 06:43 PM
come on.. maybe jeter will produce 6 runs to make up for it.. :uhh:

Jasbro
05-20-08, 06:45 PM
Error of commission by Jeter caused by an error of omission by Cano. There's no reason Cano couldn't get to the bag in time. That said, Jeter still made the throw. But he never should've been put in that position.

yanksphan
05-20-08, 06:50 PM
Oh come on...a routine throwing mistake that every player makes and has made and will continue to make.


ah right...my bad.

http://www.holscot.com/images/TEFLON1.gif

MTYankee23
05-21-08, 08:52 AM
Error of commission by Jeter caused by an error of omission by Cano. There's no reason Cano couldn't get to the bag in time. That said, Jeter still made the throw. But he never should've been put in that position.

Not for nothing, as a middle infielder myself, Cano WAS there if you watched the 2nd replay. If Jeter flips it to the bag, Cano beats the runner there by 2 steps. Not to mention on that play with 2 outs, Cano was initially set up on the other side of the infield with a lefty hitter.

Jasbro
05-21-08, 08:59 AM
Not for nothing, as a middle infielder myself, Cano WAS there if you watched the 2nd replay. If Jeter flips it to the bag, Cano beats the runner there by 2 steps. Not to mention on that play with 2 outs, Cano was initially set up on the other side of the infield with a lefty hitter.

I understand his positioning, I just think he was late getting there. I definitely disagree that he had the runner beat by 2 steps. It would have been a bang-bang play -- they possibly could have gotten the runner if he did toss it to Cano anyway, but it would have been very dicey. At the end of the day, Jeter is responsible for the throw regardless.

JeffWeaverFan
05-21-08, 09:00 AM
They should think about signing Furcal in the offseason and moving Jeter to first. And no, that idea has nothing to do with the throwing error.

edit: Or to LF and getting rid of Damon.

MTYankee23
05-21-08, 09:04 AM
They should think about signing Furcal in the offseason and moving Jeter to first. And no, that idea has nothing to do with the throwing error.

edit: Or to LF and getting rid of Damon.

I think Jeter to left would be a tremendous idea. Since they're likely going to need OFs anyway. Not completely sold on Furcal, but I also don't see anyone else out there. Not a great job by the Yankees developing only Dioner Navarro and Cristian Guzman at C and SS since '96.

MTYankee23
05-21-08, 09:14 AM
I understand his positioning, I just think he was late getting there. I definitely disagree that he had the runner beat by 2 steps. It would have been a bang-bang play -- they possibly could have gotten the runner if he did toss it to Cano anyway, but it would have been very dicey. At the end of the day, Jeter is responsible for the throw regardless.

2 steps is accurate, it's a close play, but he was ahead of the runner already when Jeter made the throw and the runner was sliding (i.e. slowing down), no excuse for not making the flip there.

(the beauty of mlb.tv account is that I can back and watch these things). The screen grab I took actually shows it was more like 3 or 4 steps.

THEBOSS84
05-21-08, 09:14 AM
They should think about signing Furcal in the offseason and moving Jeter to first. And no, that idea has nothing to do with the throwing error.

edit: Or to LF and getting rid of Damon.

I said this in the "who do you want/not want in 2009" thread.

I said to put Jeter in RF though and let Abreu walk.

Jasbro
05-21-08, 09:24 AM
2 steps is accurate, it's a close play, but he was ahead of the runner already when Jeter made the throw and the runner was sliding (i.e. slowing down), no excuse for not making the flip there.

(the beauty of mlb.tv account is that I can back and watch these things). The screen grab I took actually shows it was more like 3 or 4 steps.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. It really didn't look like that to me when I first saw it on the YES replays.

MTYankee23
05-21-08, 09:29 AM
Thanks for clarifying that for me. It really didn't look like that to me when I first saw it on the YES replays.

No problem, it was the 2nd replay that gave the best vantage point to it. The first one didn't cut to Cano until Jeter had already positioned himself to throw to first, and by that time, Cano had slowed down and veered away from the bag.

It was an odd play to say the least, since generally Jeter goes to 2nd when in doubt.

effdamets
05-21-08, 10:15 AM
No problem, it was the 2nd replay that gave the best vantage point to it. The first one didn't cut to Cano until Jeter had already positioned himself to throw to first, and by that time, Cano had slowed down and veered away from the bag.

It was an odd play to say the least, since generally Jeter goes to 2nd when in doubt.
No matter....

Jeter or Cano didn't walk in a run later in the inning and they didn't throw the pitch that produced a bases clearing double either.

yanksphan
05-21-08, 11:32 AM
No matter....

Jeter or Cano didn't walk in a run later in the inning and they didn't throw the pitch that produced a bases clearing double either.



Nor would they have had to had the SS made a routine play.

Mr. Mxylsplk
05-21-08, 11:33 AM
I never really understand why so many posters insist on compounding silly posts. :dunno:

Ynkcpt23
05-21-08, 11:33 AM
Nor would they have had to had the SS made a routine play.

Good point...

effdamets
05-22-08, 10:25 AM
Nor would they have had to had the SS made a routine play.
This is a ridiculous post.

Are you saying that there should never be an error in a baseball game?

justinvarnes
05-22-08, 10:29 AM
Is it me or has jeter seemed to get to more balls up the middle this year?

effdamets
05-22-08, 10:32 AM
Is it me or has jeter seemed to get more balls up the middle this year?
How dare you post a positive comment about Derek!
Don't you know that he is the worst at defense and should be riding the benchbecause he made an error on Tuesday?

/* sarcasm off

And for the record, I see the range up the middle for Jeter as improved this season - so far.

primetime714
05-22-08, 10:52 AM
Is it me or has jeter seemed to get to more balls up the middle this year?

Definitely. He does look a little quicker to his left. Although I think another big factor in this is the defensive shifts employed by Girardi and Thompson. We've seen a lot more shifts with Girardi at the helm and I think they've definitely helped the defense and Jeter.

MaximMan121
05-22-08, 01:27 PM
From NoMaas, and almost certainly posted here previously, but I haven't been able to find it so:

05.14.2008 Jeter's defense has been surprisingly good this season

Instead of his occupying his usual dead last position, Derek Jeter currently ranks in the top half of fielding among AL SS -- according to the Hardball Times.

Jeter ranks 6th out of 13 qualified AL SS, with a revised zone rating of .836. He's also made 12 plays outside of his designated zone.



Now: I'm one of the folks that's been saying he should move to CF for yeeeears, but give credit where credit is due.

effdamets
05-22-08, 02:03 PM
From NoMaas, and almost certainly posted here previously, but I haven't been able to find it so:

05.14.2008 Jeter's defense has been surprisingly good this season

Instead of his occupying his usual dead last position, Derek Jeter currently ranks in the top half of fielding among AL SS -- according to the Hardball Times.

Jeter ranks 6th out of 13 qualified AL SS, with a revised zone rating of .836. He's also made 12 plays outside of his designated zone.



Now: I'm one of the folks that's been saying he should move to CF for yeeeears, but give credit where credit is due.
Can someone explain to me what Jeter's "designated zone" is, and how is it measured?

SoCal Pinstriper
05-22-08, 10:45 PM
Jeter is middle of the pack in HT's RZR
http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=zone_rating&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=6&Submit=Submit

The Definition with more explanatory links is here.


RZR (or ZR)(Link)
Revised Zone Rating is the proportion of balls hit into a fielder's zone that he successfully converted into an out. Zone Rating was invented by John Dewan when he was CEO of Stats Inc. John is now the owner of Baseball Info Solutions, where he has revised the original Zone Rating calculation so that it now lists balls handled out of the zone (OOZ) separately (and doesn't include them in the ZR calculation) and doesn't give players extra credit for double plays (Stats had already made that change). We believe both changes improve Zone Ratings substantially. To get a full picture of a player's range, you should evaluate both his Revised Zone Rating and his plays made out of zone (OOZ). You can read more about the Revised Zone Ratings in this article. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/statpages/glossary/

yanksphan
11-04-08, 09:24 AM
bump...

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/76351?eref=sircrc


A group that tracks every ball hit in the majors says Derek Jeter is the worst fielder in baseball. Stats guru Bill James, author of the "Baseball Abstract," and a panel of nine other voters, ranked Jeter 22nd among all major-league shortstops, with one calling Jeter "the least effective defensive player in the major leagues, at any position."

TheGameEpisode2
11-04-08, 09:28 AM
:lol: the title of this thread makes me laugh.

I don't think Jeter is ALL that bad. Worst in the league at any position? Have you ever seen Mike Jacobs play first base? Dude is horrible.

effdamets
11-04-08, 09:31 AM
:lol: the title of this thread makes me laugh.

I don't think Jeter is ALL that bad. Worst in the league at any position? Have you ever seen Mike Jacobs play first base? Dude is horrible.
Amongst others... :lol:

aeromac76
11-04-08, 09:51 AM
For whatever reason, Jeter is just so polarizing and I can never figure out why..

His detractors would make you think he is lucky to have a major league contract, his supporters list him with Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and JoeD.

I just rarely see a reasonable assessment of him as a player in the media and amongst many fans (although these boards are usually reasonable).

Jeter is a good offensive SS who still makes most of the pkays he should make. His range, especially left, is diminished, but when healthy, he can still hit a goo deal and run well. He is an asset to any team he'd play on, and oh yeah, we know his contract is huge, so what, we can afford it.

Jeter is a solid player who is not the problem with the Yankees, at least not one o the problems that will cause us to fail any time soon.
And numbers in this case be damned, I watch baseball every day, and Jeter is not the worst SS in the majors (not to mention worst defensive position anywhere!).
I mean, who wants to tell me Giambi is a better first baseman than Jeter is a SS?

Any system that arrives at that conclusion allows me to come to the conclusion that the system is broken, not that it is true..

effdamets
11-04-08, 09:54 AM
For whatever reason, Jeter is just so polarizing and I can never figure out why..

His detractors would make you think he is lucky to have a major league contract, his supporters list him with Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and JoeD.

I just rarely see a reasonable assessment of him as a player in the media and amongst many fans (although these boards are usually reasonable).

Jeter is a good offensive SS who still makes most of the pkays he should make. His range, especially left, is diminished, but when healthy, he can still hit a goo deal and run well. He is an asset to any team he'd play on, and oh yeah, we know his contract is huge, so what, we can afford it.

Jeter is a solid player who is not the problem with the Yankees, at least not one o the problems that will cause us to fail any time soon.
And numbers in this case be damned, I watch baseball every day, and Jeter is not the worst SS in the majors (not to mention worst defensive position anywhere!).
I mean, who wants to tell me Giambi is a better first baseman than Jeter is a SS?

Any system that arrives at that conclusion allows me to come to the conclusion that the system is broken, not that it is true..
I agree with this.

I think defensive metrics are not at all exact.

KLJ
11-04-08, 10:09 AM
I just rarely see a reasonable assessment of him as a player in the media and amongst many fans (although these boards are usually reasonable).
saying he is horrible as a mlb shortstop is reasonable.. defensively he is horrible when compared to other mlb shortstops.. you may not like it, but the assessment is very reasonable.

O'sFan2131
11-04-08, 10:17 AM
I think worst fielder in all of baseball at any position is a bit of a stretch.

I would say that in my mind, he and Michael Young are probably the worst fielding shortstops in the game.

Jeter is a great player. A firts ballot HOF'er, no doubt. But the way his defense is defended by some is laughable, really. He is a horrible defensive shortstop.

aeromac76
11-04-08, 10:26 AM
saying he is horrible as a mlb shortstop is reasonable.. defensively he is horrible when compared to other mlb shortstops.. you may not like it, but the assessment is very reasonable.

Is it reasonable to say he is the worst defensive player at any position in baseball?
You want to say he is a bad SS amongst the regulars defensively, then fine. I would not classify him as bad as some would, because I think making all the easy plays does deserve some credit and he does that. But I would agree saying he is a bad defensive SS may not be unreasonable. But to say he is the worst defensive player in the bigs at any position? C'mon, we are very much stretching there.

And as for the numbers not lying, well, again, a good mathematician knows that when the numbers arrive at a shocking conclusion, it is more often the method used to arrive at said conclusion is wrong rather than the conclusion itself being correct.

Any system that says Jeter is the worst defensive player at any position in the bigs is a broken system..

KLJ
11-04-08, 10:41 AM
Is it reasonable to say he is the worst defensive player at any position in baseball?
i don't know. i'm not smart enough to try and calculate that.


You want to say he is a bad SS amongst the regulars defensively, then fine. I would not classify him as bad as some would, because I think making all the easy plays does deserve some credit and he does that. But I would agree saying he is a bad defensive SS may not be unreasonable. But to say he is the worst defensive player in the bigs at any position? C'mon, we are very much stretching there.
it probably is stretching to say that but someone has to have that distinction.


And as for the numbers not lying, well, again, a good mathematician knows that when the numbers arrive at a shocking conclusion, it is more often the method used to arrive at said conclusion is wrong rather than the conclusion itself being correct.

Any system that says Jeter is the worst defensive player at any position in the bigs is a broken system..
you are probably right but what makes you so certain? he plays one of the most important positions and he is very bad at it.

aeromac76
11-04-08, 10:56 AM
you are probably right but what makes you so certain? he plays one of the most important positions and he is very bad at it.

What makes me certain is experience and having watched thousands of games over the years.
Baseball is more stat oriented than most sports, but as with anything else, there is no substitute for seeing things with one's own eyes.

I have probably watched 90% of all the games Derek Jeter has played in a ML uniform.
I would never sit here and say, at this stage, he is a good defender. But I also watched guys like Jason Giambi play first base, and saw Ryan Howard play first base.
Miguel Cabrera tried his luck at third base. Michael Young at the very same position in SS. I could probably dig deeper, but my thought process is I can think of a bunch of players who I would not want touching a glove and playing the field at their positions compared to Jeter.
I would not classify myself as the end all be all expert on all things baseball, but having followed it closely as I have for nearly 20 years and seeing that many games, yeah, I do think that would somewhat qualify me to make a judgement.

Again, the one argument I can say is this, would you rather have Giambi at first base or Jeter at SS? Any system than qualifies Giambi as a more competant first baseman than Jeter as a SS is in and of itself, an incomptetant system in my opinion.

bigjf
11-04-08, 10:59 AM
One year later, and I'd still take Jeter at that position based on last year over plenty of other guys. Lugo and Eckstein come to mind, and A-Rod shouldn't even be in the discussion anymore. It's yet another year away from the position, and we don't know that he could still do it.

KLJ
11-04-08, 11:03 AM
Again, the one argument I can say is this, would you rather have Giambi at first base or Jeter at SS? Any system than qualifies Giambi as a more competant first baseman than Jeter as a SS is in and of itself, an incomptetant system in my opinion.
i'm probably not the right person to ask that particular question. i've said for years that i just want as much offensive production from 1st base as possible so i never had a problem with giambi there.

when i think of jeter at ss these days it reminds of the later years of piazza behind the plate. he was horrible and could hardly get the ball to 2nd base.

is jeter the worst position player in baseball? probably not.. i just wish he would move to another position

KLJ
11-04-08, 11:04 AM
...and A-Rod shouldn't even be in the discussion anymore. It's yet another year away from the position, and we don't know that he could still do it.

i feel very confident that if you gave a-rod an entire off season to get ready, he could do a substantially better job than jeter is doing.

JL25and3
11-04-08, 11:05 AM
What makes me certain is experience and having watched thousands of games over the years.
Baseball is more stat oriented than most sports, but as with anything else, there is no substitute for seeing things with one's own eyes.

I have probably watched 90% of all the games Derek Jeter has played in a ML uniform.
I would never sit here and say, at this stage, he is a good defender. But I also watched guys like Jason Giambi play first base, and saw Ryan Howard play first base.
Miguel Cabrera tried his luck at third base. Michael Young at the very same position in SS. I could probably dig deeper, but my thought process is I can think of a bunch of players who I would not want touching a glove and playing the field at their positions compared to Jeter.
I would not classify myself as the end all be all expert on all things baseball, but having followed it closely as I have for nearly 20 years and seeing that many games, yeah, I do think that would somewhat qualify me to make a judgement.

Again, the one argument I can say is this, would you rather have Giambi at first base or Jeter at SS? Any system than qualifies Giambi as a more competant first baseman than Jeter as a SS is in and of itself, an incomptetant system in my opinion.It's possible that they're factoring the importance of the defensive position. Giambi may be a worse fielder in absolute terms, but Jeter gives up so many hits up the middle that he might end up hurting the team more.

But I don't put much stock in individual defensive statistics, anyway.

JL25and3
11-04-08, 11:10 AM
One year later, and I'd still take Jeter at that position based on last year over plenty of other guys. Lugo and Eckstein come to mind, and A-Rod shouldn't even be in the discussion anymore. It's yet another year away from the position, and we don't know that he could still do it.Lugo and Eckstein aren't everyday players anymore.

I still think that, taking offense into account, Jeter is still a substantial plus at shortstop - and that his bat becomes significantly less valuable as you move him further down the defensive spectrum.

I also don't pretend to know other shortstops nearly as well as I know Jeter, but off the top of my head, I can't think of an everyday shortstop who's an obviously worse fielder.

ojo
11-04-08, 12:31 PM
I think we have a case here where ultimately people would rather bury their heads into the sand rather than accept what the entire industry is now accepting as fact.

These people are paid to do one thing: track balls put into play, and ascribe an ‘event’ to them. Jeter lets more balls by his area than anybody else.

Why? He’s a terrible SS. This shouldn’t be news to anybody who actually watches the games. The question is this: is he still ‘that good’ offensively to off-set the negative effect his defense has on games?

ojo
11-04-08, 12:33 PM
Lugo and Eckstein aren't everyday players anymore.

I still think that, taking offense into account, Jeter is still a substantial plus at shortstop - and that his bat becomes significantly less valuable as you move him further down the defensive spectrum.

I also don't pretend to know other shortstops nearly as well as I know Jeter, but off the top of my head, I can't think of an everyday shortstop who's an obviously worse fielder.

hanley ramirez comes to mind from what i've seen...

but he's got time to learn his trade better.

OldYankeeFan
11-04-08, 02:21 PM
The question is this: is he still ‘that good’ offensively to off-set the negative effect his defense has on games?

His 120 ops+ more than makes up for those balls hit up the middle out of his reach. That being the case I really don't see the advantage of moving him off SS right now. In addition, Jeter actually improved last year and looked to me he fielded every bit as well as he did during the latter part of the dynasty run. If he was good enough then, why not now?

I don't think it was a coincidence that he improved last year. Jeter had to be embarassed after the report came out last year and his off season traing program addressed it directly which led to the improvement. So I'm happy that a RedSox advisor (James) embarassed him again. It will make Jeter work even harder to get into the best "fielding" shape possible and I think we will see a continuation of last years improvement over 2007.

metalboy15
11-04-08, 02:29 PM
hanley ramirez comes to mind from what i've seen...

but he's got time to learn his trade better.
He actually improved this year according to the +/- system.

He went from -37 last year to +3 this year.

Main difference was going to his right (-21 last year, +10 this year).

bigjf
11-04-08, 02:43 PM
i feel very confident that if you gave a-rod an entire off season to get ready, he could do a substantially better job than jeter is doing.

You say potato, I say tomato?

If only I was running the team, I'd make that move just so I could get the chance to prove myself right...or wrong...either way, it's all speculation at this point.

djeter220
11-04-08, 03:59 PM
This doesn't mean much to me. I'm much more bothered by an SI article that claims he's the most over rated player in the game. If some over analyzers say he's the worst fielder, thats fine, although I think if he was that horrific it wouldn't require analysis. What he contributes to his team still drastically outweighs what he takes away. He's a well balanced player, with his weaker side being his glove.

stephsamps
11-04-08, 07:13 PM
I will re-post what I said in Jeter's thread...

Bill James wants to get his stats out there, so by saying someone like Jeter is the worst fielder in baseball (which is total BS), it will get lots of attention. Would anyone really care if he said that say David Eckstein was the worst fielder, no one would give a damn about what he says. Instead, he has a ton of headlines proclaiming Jeter a lead foot. I am a fan of baseball, not Bill James. So he can say whatever he wants, I will still enjoy watching Jeter play (and yes, even at SS)

ojo
11-04-08, 07:16 PM
I will re-post what I said in Jeter's thread...

Bill James wants to get his stats out there, so by saying someone like Jeter is the worst fielder in baseball (which is total BS), it will get lots of attention. Would anyone really care if he said that say David Eckstein was the worst fielder, no one would give a damn about what he says. Instead, he has a ton of headlines proclaiming Jeter a lead foot. I am a fan of baseball, not Bill James. So he can say whatever he wants, I will still enjoy watching Jeter play (and yes, even at SS)

not to discredit your entire post, but your premise that james needs to use jeter's Def shortcomings to stump his brand of stats is beyond absurd.

the SABR geeks have won. they're in every front office and they sell beyond a million annuals a year.

he's far beyond his days dreaming up stats from that security guard desk back in kansas city.

ppa79
11-04-08, 07:21 PM
I will re-post what I said in Jeter's thread...

Bill James wants to get his stats out there, so by saying someone like Jeter is the worst fielder in baseball (which is total BS), it will get lots of attention. Would anyone really care if he said that say David Eckstein was the worst fielder, no one would give a damn about what he says. Instead, he has a ton of headlines proclaiming Jeter a lead foot. I am a fan of baseball, not Bill James. So he can say whatever he wants, I will still enjoy watching Jeter play (and yes, even at SS)

Nice try, but James would lose credibility and hurt his reputation if he did stuff like that.

yanksphan
11-05-08, 05:50 AM
Jeter at SS for most Yankee fans is like brakes on your car.

You never knew how bad they were until you had them replaced.

b_joseph
11-05-08, 09:45 AM
Jeter had a better fielding year in 2008 than he did in 1996, 2000 and 2003. So what is the difference in the team???

Far too many people act like his defensive shortcomings are the 100% reason why we did not win anything.
Yes, Jeter is below average, we all know that but we can still win with him at SS for as long as he maintains his current level. And we know that because it has happened 4 times before.

yanksphan
11-05-08, 10:03 AM
Jeter had a better fielding year in 2008 than he did in 1996, 2000 and 2003. So what is the difference in the team???

Far too many people act like his defensive shortcomings are the 100% reason why we did not win anything.
Yes, Jeter is below average, we all know that but we can still win with him at SS for as long as he maintains his current level. And we know that because it has happened 4 times before.

I don't think any reasonable, statistically minded person believes this.

THEBOSS84
11-05-08, 10:04 AM
Jeter at SS for most Yankee fans is like brakes on your car.

You never knew how bad they were until you had them replaced.

Great post yanksphan. I think this is very true. It's sig worthy.

JL25and3
11-05-08, 10:29 AM
Far too many people act like his defensive shortcomings are the 100% reason why we did not win anything.I think only one person acted that way, and he's been RO'ed.

b_joseph
11-05-08, 11:30 AM
I think only one person acted that way, and he's been RO'ed.Not just on these forums. I'm talking about a number of Yankee forums/baseball forums.

He is an average fielder and I dont see how that could garner such attention and dialog. Especially when you factor in that he has played on Championship teams before with the exact same fielding ability.

JL25and3
11-05-08, 12:16 PM
Not just on these forums. I'm talking about a number of Yankee forums/baseball forums.

He is an average fielder and I dont see how that could garner such attention and dialog. Especially when you factor in that he has played on Championship teams before with the exact same fielding ability.No, he's not an average fielder. But factor in his offense and he's still a valuable shortstop.

KLJ
11-05-08, 03:31 PM
No, he's not an average fielder. But factor in his offense and he's still a valuable shortstop.
exactly.. people need to stop throwing around the word average when discussing jeter's defense.

b_joseph
11-05-08, 06:07 PM
No, he's not an average fielder. But factor in his offense and he's still a valuable shortstop.He was in 2008 and 2008 alone.

JL25and3
11-05-08, 06:40 PM
He was in 2008 and 2008 alone.I don't think he was average in 2008, just a lot less atrocious than in 2007.

Slioman
11-05-08, 07:26 PM
exactly.. people need to stop throwing around the word average when discussing jeter's defense.

Average should be a compliment. It means you're better than half of the others.

yanksphan
11-06-08, 06:21 AM
Average should be a compliment. It means you're better than half of the others.

But when you're making more than the top 5 combined, you need to be better than average.

NOTE: exaggeration used for effect.

KLJ
11-06-08, 06:33 AM
But when you're making more than the top 5 combined, you need to be better than average.
better than average? i'd be ecstatic with average..

the_coach
11-07-08, 09:31 AM
Nice try, but James would lose credibility and hurt his reputation if he did stuff like that.

James has credibility?

justtxyank
11-07-08, 09:32 AM
James has credibility?

A ton of if it actually.

the_coach
11-07-08, 09:38 AM
A ton of if it actually.

It was a joke...I think I'm thinking of Bill Simmons, anyway.

Jasbro
11-07-08, 02:23 PM
Defensive stats are meaningless everywhere but in fantasy baseball and computer games.

If you do think they are valuable, then don't pick Jeter for your fantasy team.

But in the real world, he's in the top 3 or 4 of most valuable Yankees. Still.

JL25and3
11-07-08, 02:49 PM
Defensive stats are meaningless everywhere but in fantasy baseball and computer games.

If you do think they are valuable, then don't pick Jeter for your fantasy team.

But in the real world, he's in the top 3 or 4 of most valuable Yankees. Still.I don't disagree. But it's sure not because of his fielding. (And I also think individual defensive stats are questionable.)