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PuffNettles9
12-15-07, 01:11 PM
Am I in the minority here? I personally don't care about the mitchell report and steroids/HGH as I look at and view baseball from a defensive mind .
I'd rather see a game highlighted with superb defensive play than watch a 12-10 slugfest. So to me steroids/HGH doesnt elevate the part of the game in which I love and that is the outstanding and (sometimes the routine) defensive plays that are very much underrated and overlooked in much of baseball nowadays.

Gold Gloves & webgems > HR's

Evil Empire
12-15-07, 01:36 PM
I don't care because it's incomplete.

cupcollector99
12-15-07, 03:12 PM
I was disappointed in a few aspects of it.

First and foremost was the choice of Mitchell to head the effort. He's a great American and has done a lot in his public and he should be thanked for that, but when he was offered a part of the public face of the Red Sox, he stopped being impartial. The results are tainted because of this. Being a politician, he should have known that perception is reality.

It was not comprehensive because they didn't try to include the labor group. By excluding the players union, it makes the report out to be a witch hunt no matter what they say. It's not the owners, it's not the front office, it's not the staff, it's the players faces on the pages of papers and magazines with "cheater" as the headline when we all know that everyone is to blame. Right now, the mere mention of a player in the report automatically means he did something wrong.

So I'm not surprised but I am disappointed, so I do care.

Rob S
12-15-07, 03:51 PM
Am I in the minority here? I personally don't care about the mitchell report and steroids/HGH as I look at and view baseball from a defensive mind .
I'd rather see a game highlighted with superb defensive play than watch a 12-10 slugfest. So to me steroids/HGH doesnt elevate the part of the game in which I love and that is the outstanding and (sometimes the routine) defensive plays that are very much underrated and overlooked in much of baseball nowadays.

Gold Gloves & webgems > HR's

Wouldn't this all make you more pissed off about PEDs? All those guys who turned into the Incredible Hulk in the 90's overshadowed superb defensive players. Hard to make a Web Gem when someone's hitting the ball twenty rows into the stands.

And if you're more interested in the defensive side of the game, shouldn't you be concerned about all those pitchers who were named? Where do strikeouts fit into your equation? (or is that an inequation? Inequality? Sorry, I always slept through math class)

dabomb2045
12-15-07, 03:57 PM
I really could care less

The Comic Book Guy
12-15-07, 04:17 PM
I'm not going to stop watching/going to games, I'm not going to stop cheering for players, and I'm not going to boo anyone louder.

So no, I guess I don't, to be honest. I don't think most people do. I guess I'll probably pretend to like everyone else, though.

There's really no innocence in baseball, at least not at the Major League level. Frankly, I don't think that there ever was.

Evil Empire
12-15-07, 04:27 PM
I agree about the defense thing you said though.

brosiusbuddy
12-15-07, 04:32 PM
I don't care at all if a player uses steroids. If they want to put drugs in their system thats fine; it provides me with more entertainment. Baseball fans are much too in love with the history of the game which is why they care too much about steroids.

LuckyLopez
12-15-07, 04:48 PM
I care so much as its news and there IS some new and interesting info in it. Some of it just just stuff that makes me chuckle, though. Like reading Rondell White seem to write out a check for "pills" and Paul LoDuca right a thank you note.

I really don't care about the steroid issue in general. I think its too widespread to purge records and I think its too widespread to figure out how much of an edge anyone had at any given time. Even the guilty parties. I also basically think cheating is cheating, and while steroids may be a bigger form of cheating than spitballs, corked bats, stealing signs, pine tar, nail files, and whatever else... its all cheating. And in baseball cheating has never been a cardinal sin. That baseball basically allowed steroids to prosper AND that it fit into an established ethical code that cheating may get you a punishment but not a harsh one... it feels wrong to go back and punish people because we've changed the morality rules now. Post 2005? Sure. We've established that steroids are bad and against the rules, that they can land you harsh punishments. So I think they should be enforced. But I don't think we should be judging someone from 1997 on ethics we set in 2005.

Add in that by Mitchell's own admission this report is nothing more than a drop in the bucket. I'm not sure what it establishes. The 7% of 1400 or so major leaguers that tested positive in '03 would seem to have already shown that the problem is widespread. Most of these guys were busted or looks like they would have been exposed without Mitchell's involvement. So I'm not sure what this accomplished but exposing a few new names. And I'm not a fan of the "name names" aspect of this. And the report seems to be getting misinterpreted left and right. People aren't reading it, they're presuming certain things, they're accusing it of bias and irresponsibility without much evidence, they're holding it up as more than it is, etc. So I've kind of grown tired of it already.

But I'll still sit down and finish reading it sometime this weekend.

NYYDragoon
12-15-07, 04:48 PM
I don't care at all if a player uses steroids. If they want to put drugs in their system thats fine; it provides me with more entertainment. Baseball fans are much too in love with the history of the game which is why they care too much about steroids.
I disagree. Just like I wouldn't pay for a quack doctor to diagnose me, I'm not willing to give up money to see a bunch of players who cheated to get there (ESPECIALLY when they parade around pretending like they're that good because of their amazing workout routines).

silverdsl
12-15-07, 05:09 PM
I care. There's a lot more to the Mitchell Report imo than just the list of names that everyone seems to be focusing on.

False1
12-15-07, 05:10 PM
I probably can't say I don't care. I was interested to see who was on the list and what definitive evidence might exist. Since the list was pathetically incomplete and unbalance, and the evidence moreso, the report simply reaffirmed my position on this. We don't know who did and who didn't, so it is what it is. I'll reserve my frustration for anyone caught from this point forward. And they should make the penalties MUCH stiffer. Why should someone be allowed to test positive and play again after a few games off? A positive test should equate to a 1 year ban - minimum.

4bronxbombers
12-15-07, 05:31 PM
Who doesn't care? People that aren't into baseball I supposed. I care. A lot. :(

FoulkeLore
12-15-07, 09:29 PM
I don't care. I've become very jaded by the steroid/PE era.

Jace
12-15-07, 09:52 PM
I care. There's a lot more to the Mitchell Report imo than just the list of names that everyone seems to be focusing on.

It seems like the rest was essentially a summary of the effects of steroids and HGH on the human body (already readily available on the internet) and a recommendation for better drug testing (I dont think we needed millions of dollars and a famed peace broker to come up with that)

It looks like the big stuff is the names, and I don't really care that much about that. And no I wouldn't care that much if it was Josh Beckett and David Ortiz

PuffNettles9
12-15-07, 10:16 PM
Wouldn't this all make you more pissed off about PEDs? All those guys who turned into the Incredible Hulk in the 90's overshadowed superb defensive players. Hard to make a Web Gem when someone's hitting the ball twenty rows into the stands.

And if you're more interested in the defensive side of the game, shouldn't you be concerned about all those pitchers who were named? Where do strikeouts fit into your equation? (or is that an inequation? Inequality? Sorry, I always slept through math class)

Not necessarily, I could argue that making a web gem play in the steroid era makes baseball all the more interesting and that a web gem should stand out even more so b/c of the fact you brought up about hitting the ball 20 rows into the stands. that its harder now more than ever to make such a play b/c of the amount of balls being put into the upper deck.

YankeePride1967
12-15-07, 10:33 PM
I care. There's a lot more to the Mitchell Report imo than just the list of names that everyone seems to be focusing on.

I think this report would have been much more useful in 2002-03 when the testing program began. I believe that what was in the report was nothing really revelating and none of the recommendations were anything a reasonable person couldn't think of. The one area I disagree with is with the release of the names. The investigation was done basically from three people. I heard many in the game and Mitchell himself say who used was not the main purpose of this report, but the degree of the problem of steroids and HGH. If that's the case, why release an incomplete list of names? And even some of those names are there on the basis of hearsay. While there is some good stuff in it, I think the report was basically PR/damage control to the BALCO and the book "Shadows of the Game".

Jace
12-15-07, 10:53 PM
Not necessarily, I could argue that making a web gem play in the steroid era makes baseball all the more interesting and that a web gem should stand out even more so b/c of the fact you brought up about hitting the ball 20 rows into the stands. that its harder now more than ever to make such a play b/c of the amount of balls being put into the upper deck.

And thats not even true..... you still need to record 27 outs a game, regardless of how many balls go 20 rows into the stands. Hehe, I have never heard a diatribe on PEDs before on the basis of Web Gems being hurt

silverdsl
12-15-07, 11:19 PM
It seems like the rest was essentially a summary of the effects of steroids and HGH on the human body (already readily available on the internet) and a recommendation for better drug testing (I dont think we needed millions of dollars and a famed peace broker to come up with that)If MLB didn't need this report and millions of dollars to come up with recommendations for better drug testing they already would have come up with these things and implimented them.

iWant27
12-15-07, 11:30 PM
I dont care because this report is from a red sox director and to me whole point seems to screw yankee players by Selig a friend of red sox and Mitchell on a payroll from red sox .
Think about it . Who is most to lose after this report . Clemens .
Clemen's public image is screwed .
Selig and red sox wanted to screw a great Yankee in the name some f**** Mitchell report .

Jace
12-16-07, 02:40 AM
If MLB didn't need this report and millions of dollars to come up with recommendations for better drug testing they already would have come up with these things and implimented them.

Thats not true. They are battling the Player's Union, which has a ton of power here. Sure, maybe 5+ years ago this is a revelation, but right now? They could have hired me for $100 and I would have told them the same thing. The main thing here is the names and the evidence tied to them, thats why everybody is focusing exclusively on them. Nothing else is really very novel information. Maybe its well put together, but you really dont need millions and this much media attention for a well-put together thesis on steroids and what baseball should do about them that a grad student in college could probably do. The millions was for an investigation

PuffNettles9
12-16-07, 09:40 AM
And thats not even true..... you still need to record 27 outs a game, regardless of how many balls go 20 rows into the stands. Hehe, I have never heard a diatribe on PEDs before on the basis of Web Gems being hurt

Technically, a game doesnt need 27 outs to be won...assuming you are the home team and win with a "walk off" (or as it used to be called - game winning RBI). In this scenario, at the very least, the minimum outs the home team would make on the offensive side would be 24 ;) But yes from the defensive side you do need 27 outs some of which hopefully are web gems =P

Nick71
12-16-07, 10:31 AM
I couldn't care less.

YankeePride1967
12-16-07, 11:33 AM
Thats not true. They are battling the Player's Union, which has a ton of power here. Sure, maybe 5+ years ago this is a revelation, but right now? They could have hired me for $100 and I would have told them the same thing. The main thing here is the names and the evidence tied to them, thats why everybody is focusing exclusively on them. Nothing else is really very novel information. Maybe its well put together, but you really dont need millions and this much media attention for a well-put together thesis on steroids and what baseball should do about them that a grad student in college could probably do. The millions was for an investigation

And some of the recommendations (have an independent agency and education efforts) are things I thought were already in place and something a Commissioner with half a brain would already be doing without spending all that money.

Dr. Gonzo
12-16-07, 03:03 PM
i could care less, i don't get why anyone cares or how they are hurt personally. Stop being so dramatic and selfish, this isn't about you, we get to watch the game and that is it, we want more and want to be a part of the game so we think that we can be hurt of someone uses steroids. It is their job, you don't get the pressure they feel, I am sure most people would do something in their field to get ahead. We don't see this as a job, we see it as baseball, and that isn't the way they see it.

Let it go, I am sure many people here do drugs on their own, i think no less of you because, you do what you have to do, I don't care to worry about your actions.

I don't care at all, I just want to see baseball. We all get mad at roids but I be these guys are blowing rails as well (something I can speak to about one actual player with the yankees who had the fortune of meeting and partying with). Does that bother you as much or less?

Prison Mike
12-16-07, 03:13 PM
I so tired of hearing about this damn report already. I was interested to see who was on the list, but my interest died right after I read it.

I'd rather watch NBA highlights than hear about what XXXX is going to say now that they've been busted.

PuffNettles9
12-16-07, 03:23 PM
i could care less, i don't get why anyone cares or how they are hurt personally. Stop being so dramatic and selfish, this isn't about you, we get to watch the game and that is it, we want more and want to be a part of the game so we think that we can be hurt of someone uses steroids. It is their job, you don't get the pressure they feel, I am sure most people would do something in their field to get ahead. We don't see this as a job, we see it as baseball, and that isn't the way they see it.

Let it go, I am sure many people here do drugs on their own, i think no less of you because, you do what you have to do, I don't care to worry about your actions.

I don't care at all, I just want to see baseball. We all get mad at roids but I be these guys are blowing rails as well (something I can speak to about one actual player with the yankees who had the fortune of meeting and partying with). Does that bother you as much or less?

Im with you! Preaching to the choir Doc!

JJazz
12-17-07, 04:25 PM
i could care less, i don't get why anyone cares or how they are hurt personally. Stop being so dramatic and selfish, this isn't about you, we get to watch the game and that is it, we want more and want to be a part of the game so we think that we can be hurt of someone uses steroids. It is their job, you don't get the pressure they feel, I am sure most people would do something in their field to get ahead. We don't see this as a job, we see it as baseball, and that isn't the way they see it.

Let it go, I am sure many people here do drugs on their own, i think no less of you because, you do what you have to do, I don't care to worry about your actions.

I don't care at all, I just want to see baseball. We all get mad at roids but I be these guys are blowing rails as well (something I can speak to about one actual player with the yankees who had the fortune of meeting and partying with). Does that bother you as much or less?

I have no problem with players doing recreational drugs. I do have a problem with them cheating. There are good reasons to ban PEDs, and just because we can understand that they might succumb to the pressure to take PEDs doesn't mean we can't decry their bad decisions.

Mezmerize
12-18-07, 02:14 PM
I was disappointed in a few aspects of it.

First and foremost was the choice of Mitchell to head the effort. He's a great American and has done a lot in his public and he should be thanked for that, but when he was offered a part of the public face of the Red Sox, he stopped being impartial. The results are tainted because of this. Being a politician, he should have known that perception is reality.

My god, you are STILL droning on with this stupid sentiment? Are you kidding me? The results are tainted because nobody affiliated with baseball puts the game or the health of the players above MONEY. Only a handful of people crawled out of the woodwork to give statements and who knows how accurate the statements are. The extent of the Mitchell report is the extent to which baseball is willing to admit a mistake and move forward. THEY HAVE NOT DONE THAT. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Red Sox, but I'm sure that won't make a difference to you or anybody else that keeps banging that drum. Quite frankly it's giving me a headache and is rooted in nothing but your own paranoid delusion. Get off it already.


It was not comprehensive because they didn't try to include the labor group. By excluding the players union, it makes the report out to be a witch hunt no matter what they say. It's not the owners, it's not the front office, it's not the staff, it's the players faces on the pages of papers and magazines with "cheater" as the headline when we all know that everyone is to blame. Right now, the mere mention of a player in the report automatically means he did something wrong.

I agree with the premise here, but I fail to see how exclusion of the MLBPA makes it more of a witchhunt. MLBPA was the primary reason for the stonewall to the investigation. Of course the layers run deeper into management, but that was not the focus of the report. Everyone affiliated with the game is responsible, including the players who are "clean" for not doing anything about it.

The only way to clean up the sport is for a mass boycott by the fans. Stop watching, stop going, stop spending your money on it. You'll be surprised how quickly that tune Bud Selig and Don Fehr are whistling changes.

OldYankeeFan
12-18-07, 04:09 PM
I could care less about the Mitchell report. From the day it was announced I saw it for what it is...a way to deflect blame away from management and show congress and the nation that MLB is doing something about the problem. It became even more of a joke when a "principal" of the RS was put in charge of it.

If Bud and the boys really wanted to do something about the problem they would have spent the $$ on finding a way to test for HGH and pressuring the union to accept blood tests. But this will never happen since there is too much money being made by owners who see a direct correlation between the increase in the power game and fan interest.

It was a bullsh!t and biased report that shamefully singled out a very few of the total juicers out there to deflect blame away from MLB and the owners. And the fact they used a RS principal to head the report that ended up zinging the Yankees in the process made it that much sweeter for Bud.

Mezmerize
12-19-07, 08:23 AM
I could care less about the Mitchell report. From the day it was announced I saw it for what it is...a way to deflect blame away from management and show congress and the nation that MLB is doing something about the problem. It became even more of a joke when a "principal" of the RS was put in charge of it.

If Bud and the boys really wanted to do something about the problem they would have spent the $$ on finding a way to test for HGH and pressuring the union to accept blood tests. But this will never happen since there is too much money being made by owners who see a direct correlation between the increase in the power game and fan interest.

It was a bullsh!t and biased report that shamefully singled out a very few of the total juicers out there to deflect blame away from MLB and the owners. And the fact they used a RS principal to head the report that ended up zinging the Yankees in the process made it that much sweeter for Bud.

Again I will ask what does the connection with the Red Sox have to do with the final output? How did the Mitchell report unfairly target the Yankees and not the Red Sox or any other team for that matter? You think Bud hates the Yankees? His biggest earner? Please.

You are spot with your opinions about the commissioner, the owners, and the MLBPA. Fiscal health is always more important than personal health, never forget that. In my opinion, it is that simple.

One other thing that I think this report begins to confirm is the fact that what may have been called an 'underground culture' or 'subculture', meaning steroids and the users, was nothing of the sort. The players and trainers openly flaunted this stuff in every locker room in the country. Baseball didn't attempt to police it all. It's as if everyone affiliated with baseball, including the fans, do not see anything wrong with what has happened to the game. It's terrible that America's Pasttime has become a drug-infested cheat-hole for the sake of the dollar. Perhaps that perfectly reflects the values we hold today in the 21st century in America.....

Hitman23
12-19-07, 09:17 AM
I absolutely don't care. And I wish it would go away.

Jace
12-19-07, 09:55 AM
One other thing that I think this report begins to confirm is the fact that what may have been called an 'underground culture' or 'subculture', meaning steroids and the users, was nothing of the sort. The players and trainers openly flaunted this stuff in every locker room in the country. Baseball didn't attempt to police it all. It's as if everyone affiliated with baseball, including the fans, do not see anything wrong with what has happened to the game. It's terrible that America's Pasttime has become a drug-infested cheat-hole for the sake of the dollar. Perhaps that perfectly reflects the values we hold today in the 21st century in America.....

You have to be kidding me. Yes, I'm sure in early 20th century America back when men were pure and true, there was no such thing as trying to break the rules to get ahead, and nobody liked money. I'm tired of the moralizing

And you can really tell me with 100% certainty that if Mitchell was on the Yankee board of directors and a bunch of Sox from 2004 got implicated and only a couple of marginal Yankees, you would be this cavalier about the process? Hell, I see most Sox fans getting ruffled up when Yankee Bob Watson suspends any of their players for anything. Its probably as unbiased as Mitchell could make it... but that doesn't mean its completely unbiased in every way. He was a stupid choice because at the very least there will always be the perception of bias

Mezmerize
12-19-07, 10:42 AM
You have to be kidding me. Yes, I'm sure in early 20th century America back when men were pure and true, there was no such thing as trying to break the rules to get ahead, and nobody liked money. I'm tired of the moralizing

And you can really tell me with 100% certainty that if Mitchell was on the Yankee board of directors and a bunch of Sox from 2004 got implicated and only a couple of marginal Yankees, you would be this cavalier about the process? Hell, I see most Sox fans getting ruffled up when Yankee Bob Watson suspends any of their players for anything. Its probably as unbiased as Mitchell could make it... but that doesn't mean its completely unbiased in every way. He was a stupid choice because at the very least there will always be the perception of bias

The Yankee Bob stuff always makes me chuckle because it is so ludicrous. I was a bit bothered by the uniform rule, or the 'Tito' rule as he referred to it, but other than that, I have no problem with Bob Watson.

As far as Mitchell's investigation is concerned, I find it comical that you or anyone would insinuate that his bias prevented him or kept him from releasing information he had or impacted the integrity of the investigation because of his Sox affiliation. I've said it before, the results of the report are incomplete because of league-wide collusion to stone-wall the effort and keep this dirty secret tightly held. It had/has nothing to do with the fact that Mitchell is on the Board of the Sox. It is absurd to even suggest otherwise.

I know what you're getting at, but the logic is flawed. The Sox were not shown preferential treatment by Mitchell. If you have any evidence to suggest otherwise, I will take that into account, but all I've seen is conjecture suggesting this is the case. Why are people still trying to find excuses for the culprits? Why is Mitchell the bad guy and not the owners, the players, the union, and hell even the friggin commissioner?

And another thing, Mo Vaughn was my Red Sox hero coming up as a kid and seeing his name on the report is a huge blow to me personally. It doesn't even matter to me if he did or didn't use while he was in Boston. He used at some point and to be blunt, that sucks.

You can be tired of the moralizing. I'm tired of the attacks on Mitchell because of his affiliation. It's deflection and excuse making, which to me, is quite pathetic.

Jace
12-19-07, 11:04 AM
The Yankee Bob stuff always makes me chuckle because it is so ludicrous. I was a bit bothered by the uniform rule, or the 'Tito' rule as he referred to it, but other than that, I have no problem with Bob Watson.

As far as Mitchell's investigation is concerned, I find it comical that you or anyone would insinuate that his bias prevented him or kept him from releasing information he had or impacted the integrity of the investigation because of his Sox affiliation. I've said it before, the results of the report are incomplete because of league-wide collusion to stone-wall the effort and keep this dirty secret tightly held. It had/has nothing to do with the fact that Mitchell is on the Board of the Sox. It is absurd to even suggest otherwise.

I know what you're getting at, but the logic is flawed. The Sox were not shown preferential treatment by Mitchell. If you have any evidence to suggest otherwise, I will take that into account, but all I've seen is conjecture suggesting this is the case. Why are people still trying to find excuses for the culprits? Why is Mitchell the bad guy and not the owners, the players, the union, and hell even the friggin commissioner?

And another thing, Mo Vaughn was my Red Sox hero coming up as a kid and seeing his name on the report is a huge blow to me personally. It doesn't even matter to me if he did or didn't use while he was in Boston. He used at some point and to be blunt, that sucks.

You can be tired of the moralizing. I'm tired of the attacks on Mitchell because of his affiliation. It's deflection and excuse making, which to me, is quite pathetic.

You posted a bunch of things that I didn't say and then refuted them. I never said the process was biased. I said the choice was stupid because A) there is a small potential that its biased in some way and B) its really obvious and its going to discredit it to some degree, especially to the teams affected. Just because something is unlikely doesn't make it completely impossible, whether you find it comical or not

Maybe you wouldn't care at all, but I'm pretty sure a large number of Red Sox fans wouldn't be as completely sure about the process were the situation reversed. And thats partly because of fan bias, and partly because the choice of the man to head the report makes a situation like the report being biased possible

What excuses are you talking about? What blame on Mitchell are you talking about? I dont recall saying anything like that

Lurker
12-19-07, 11:33 AM
Not only don't I care who used steroids and who didn't, but the scope of this "scandal" that has been perpetrated by the media goes well beyond baseball, and is in fact, political in nature. I care very much about the repercussions of this outside of baseball, but in no way do I look negatively upon players who have used these drugs.

Cortisone is a STEROID. Nobody is knocking down the doors of David Cone or David Wells for a comment, despite their well-documented history of cortisone use.

Human Growth Hormone is not a steroid. It's a HORMONE. It's occurs naturally in humans. It's purpose is to help humans grow. "God" or whoever created you (or at least whoever created the template for human body function) put it there. You have some of it in your body right now.

Marijuana is a plant. It's completely natural. It's also a controlled substance. Toad venom is similar. It's completely natural, yet it's a controlled substance.

GOT TOAD? Smoking amphibians' secretions causes "high" (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/story/D7E975417D22F1BB862573A7005F0341?OpenDocument)


KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Law enforcement authorities have discovered that people are willing to go to great lengths to get high, including a troubling new method that features a frightened toad.
...................................

Police found the toad when they went to a northern Kansas City home to investigate a suspected meth lab. They later arrested David S. Theiss, 21, and charged him with three counts of possession of a controlled substance and one count of possessing drug paraphernalia -- the toad. This isn't about performance on the baseball field being "enhanced," and it's not even really about Barry Bonds, Brian McNamee, or anyone else potentially lying under oath and forfeiting any immunity they may have been entitled to in the process. This is about the government telling you, me, and every other non-athlete, non-celebrity citizen of the United States which substances are allowed and which aren't. It doesn't matter if the substances are natural. It's doesn't matter if they're safe (do a search on stevia and how the market for it in this country has been effectively reduced to zero because the makers of Equal and Splenda are in bed with the FDA, and how Donald Rumsfeld was the chairman on the company that invented aspartame), and it doesn't matter if they might have health benefits. If Pfizer and Bayer can't turn it into a drug that can be sold for hundreds of dollars for each prescription, the FDA doesn't want you to have it, and in some cases, proactively bans it.

Additionally, it's precisely because some STEROIDS are allowed and some STEROIDS are not allowed that this entire SCANDAL is nothing more than a SCAM to manipulate the public. The substances being referred to as "performance enhancing drugs" are merely an additional form of modern technology that's available to the players of today that was not available to players of the past. Much like rotator cuff or Tommy John surgery, steroids and HGH help players who wouldn't otherwise be able to continue their careers due to injury continue on, sometimes for many years at a high level. Mariano had arm problems early in his career. If he'd been born 50 years earlier, he might not have recorded a single save in his entire life, because the technology to fix his arm hadn't been discovered yet. Guys like Bob Turley and Sandy Koufax had their careers cut short because of arm problems. In the case of Koufax, there was nothing structurally wrong with his arm. He simply had pain when he threw the ball. Pitchers with this kind of ailment today go in for a treatment that takes 24-48 hours, and it's completely healed. Koufax, as recently as 1966, had to retire because of this ailment at the age of 30. Now, let's say hypothetically that Turley and Koufax were modern players. Nobody would criticize them for utilizing surgery or other forms of modern treatment, most of it unnatural, to cure their ailments. So why should cortisone be allowed and HGH banned? Who gets to arbitrarily decide what's acceptable and what's not?

A man in Canada recently sold his son's Guitar Hero III game on eBay for over $9,000 because he caught his son getting high on pot. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071216/od_afp/canadainternetdrugchristmasoffbeat;_ylt=Aq.TjY30sYcEKqTVuckh3u6ek3QF) One of the comments he wrote in the auction caught my eye. He said, "It is, however, my strong opinion that outlawing marijuana use is a gross hypocrisy while alcohol and tobacco use are permitted. This is just one reason why I am fortunate to live Canada, where the laws concerning pot use are significantly more civilized than in many other developed countries."

That's what this is all about. Baseball and its record books are merely the vehicles being exploited to further the agenda of government control over the masses.

yankeebot
12-19-07, 11:55 AM
FYI, cortisone is a cortisteroid or a glucocorticoid. It is a drug closely related to cortisol which is a hormone produced by the adrenal glands. Anabolic steroids, which is what is banned by baseball, is synthetic drug created to mimic androgens, the male sex hormones. These are two completely different classes of drugs and the only thing they have in common is the word "steroid" which encompasses a huge group of organic compounds produced by the body. Comparing the two is apples and oranges.

Lurker
12-19-07, 01:32 PM
Steroids are steroids, drugs are drugs, natural or synthetic. At least that's how the government wants us to think. Some of the natural ones are produced inside and by the human body, and others, like marijuana, aren't. I don't have any formal medical training, so I'm not in a position to refute your point, and I have no reason to believe it to be inaccurate, but it does not reduce the significance of the points I was trying to make. :)

Simply because two "steroids" are considered to be from two different classes of drugs does not necessarily justify the legality of one and the illegality of another. I think crack and heroin come from different classes of drugs too.

Also, HGH is not a steroid.

DontHateOnNumber2
12-19-07, 02:18 PM
I don't care because it's incomplete.

Yup. That's my take on it.

Mezmerize
12-19-07, 02:29 PM
You posted a bunch of things that I didn't say and then refuted them. I never said the process was biased. I said the choice was stupid because A) there is a small potential that its biased in some way and B) its really obvious and its going to discredit it to some degree, especially to the teams affected. Just because something is unlikely doesn't make it completely impossible, whether you find it comical or not

Maybe you wouldn't care at all, but I'm pretty sure a large number of Red Sox fans wouldn't be as completely sure about the process were the situation reversed. And thats partly because of fan bias, and partly because the choice of the man to head the report makes a situation like the report being biased possible

What excuses are you talking about? What blame on Mitchell are you talking about? I dont recall saying anything like that

I suppose I misunderstood your point then.

It seems that there are many here that are convinced a bias existed against the Yankees when formulating this report and throughout the investigation because Mitchell is a member of the board for the Red Sox. I have been trying to probe this assertion and retrieve some evidence of the existence of such a bias. I don't see it. I don't see how naming Pettitte and Clemens is a slight against the Yankees any more than the Blue Jays or Astros (or Red Sox in the case of Clemens). Regardless of the teams named, some more than others, it does not change the fact that all 30 teams are in it knee-deep. Not the Yanks more than the Sox, not the Orioles more than the D-Backs or however you want to slice it up.

If the situation was inverted and Mitchell was on the board of the Yanks would I feel differently? I doubt it. I can't say for certain, but to me it is clearly evident that given the circumstances and the people Mitchell had to work with, he was only able to produce a rather faulty document with no real evidence. I also fail to see how this was a shortcoming on the part of Mitchell, as many have stated here, and not a reflection on the sport.

As for your assertion that the potential exists for bias, of course it exists. How could it not? That doesn't mean that it manifested itself in the findings and I think a lot of people are trying to make that correlation. From where I am standing, all the grenades getting tossed at Mitchell for what he produced and how he produced it are deflections away from the guilty parties, which in my eyes is practically everyone affiliated with the game. The more time passes, the more I think sh** flows downhill and Bud Selig is the biggest culprit of them all. His job is to protect the game and its players. It is glaringly obvious to me that Selig made a choice and put the fiscal health of the game above everything else. After about a generation of doing so, the money is pouring in but at what cost?

People will always cheat the system, it's inevitable. That doesn't mean you have to let the cheaters run the roost so to speak. It should not go completely unchecked.

Young Steinbrenner
12-21-07, 05:52 PM
I agree with the original poster.

I love baseball because it is a thinking man's game. I love the strategic side of it. I love when the Yankees and Red Sox play close games. Every pitch becomes captivating.

I'd prefer a 2-1 pitcher's duel over a slugfest anyday.

Young Steinbrenner
12-21-07, 05:59 PM
Regarding steroids, I honestly don't care.

I'm a libertarian to the extreme. I wish the government would stop putting people in jail for drug use. As long as the addict isn't committing crimes or hurting anyone else, it's none of my business.

If you want to smoke crack and risk death to get high, go ahead. If you want to shoot needles in your ass to hit the ball farther, fine. There are going to be serious consequences, whether you get caught or not.

White Knight
12-21-07, 07:21 PM
I don't care, steroids or not, they're still my heroes. Besides, I like the high scoring era and lots of HR's.

the_coach
12-21-07, 07:54 PM
The 'Mitchell Report' is selective and incomplete...plus the 'evidence' is questionable...talk to a 'rat' in every clubhouse before you broadcast names.

Selig is an idiot (IMHO)...the media is lapping it up.

bobbymagee
12-23-07, 01:07 PM
don't care would be an understatement, a politician crafting a narrow, inaccurate statement. More players should have been included. it should have been more inclusive.

JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!

Dr. Gonzo
12-23-07, 02:52 PM
great article http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/sports/baseball/23vecsey.html?8dpc

and how i feel. I dont get why we look up to these guys at all the compete and look for an edge, as well do. If you are hurt that they stole the game from you then you think to much of them and to little of yourself, why live your life through the life of another man.

We forget thta are human, no worse or better then each of us.

Jace
12-23-07, 04:37 PM
great article http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/sports/baseball/23vecsey.html?8dpc

and how i feel. I dont get why we look up to these guys at all the compete and look for an edge, as well do. If you are hurt that they stole the game from you then you think to much of them and to little of yourself, why live your life through the life of another man.

We forget thta are human, no worse or better then each of us.

agree agree agree. Good line with the "these people are well known mostly for their hand-eye coordination. Why do people believe they are our moral role models again?" I love the congressmen that go into fits of righteous rage over steroids (not really a big problem nationally) to distract attention from their own massive indiscretions and poor decisions (actually a big problem)

Remember, these congressmen WERE elected because they are supposed to be moral role models. AGH noooooooooo steroids are destroying the youth of america!!!!

Mezmerize
12-23-07, 10:36 PM
Regarding steroids, I honestly don't care.

I'm a libertarian to the extreme. I wish the government would stop putting people in jail for drug use. As long as the addict isn't committing crimes or hurting anyone else, it's none of my business.

If you want to smoke crack and risk death to get high, go ahead. If you want to shoot needles in your ass to hit the ball farther, fine. There are going to be serious consequences, whether you get caught or not.

But I think this ruins the spirit of competition. If you are going to allow steroid use, which is essentially what MLB did, then shouldn't it be mandatory? How else could the playing field be level? There will be serious consequences and its too bad that some guys don't think about that or care enough about the adverse effects to make them stop.

Dr. Gonzo
12-23-07, 11:52 PM
But I think this ruins the spirit of competition. If you are going to allow steroid use, which is essentially what MLB did, then shouldn't it be mandatory? How else could the playing field be level? There will be serious consequences and its too bad that some guys don't think about that or care enough about the adverse effects to make them stop.nope it is up to the player if he wants to take the risk, and if you can perform without them then even better for you.

And like with all illegal drugs if things are allowed they could be studied and made safer for users, rather they are driven underground without proper medical over sight.

I don't care if someone uses or not, level playing isn't a concern of mine either, I think the disparity in payroll is more of an inequality then steroids which every team probably had an eually portionate amount doing.

Toaderly
12-24-07, 07:56 AM
I care. There's a lot more to the Mitchell Report imo than just the list of names that everyone seems to be focusing on.


This is my exact view on the entire subject. They players named are only the tip of the iceberg and are merely a diversion of the real issue. The underlying problem is much greater. The fact that the Commissioner, the owners, the Players Union, and the players themselves turned a blind eye towards the use of PED's for so many years is what needs to be examined and corrected. Until procedures are put into place to stop this complacency, the game will never be cleaned up, no matter how many times they test players.

yanksphan
12-24-07, 07:59 AM
This is my exact view on the entire subject. They players named are only the tip of the iceberg and are merely a diversion of the real issue. The underlying problem is much greater. The fact that the Commissioner, the owners, the Players Union, and the players themselves turned a blind eye towards the use of PED's for so many years is what needs to be examined and corrected. Until procedures are put into place to stop this complacency, the game will never be cleaned up, no matter how many times they test players.

One could say that by turning the blind eye - the culture was basically encouraged.

I'm looking at you Bud Selig.

Mezmerize
12-24-07, 08:25 AM
nope it is up to the player if he wants to take the risk, and if you can perform without them then even better for you.

And like with all illegal drugs if things are allowed they could be studied and made safer for users, rather they are driven underground without proper medical over sight.

I don't care if someone uses or not, level playing isn't a concern of mine either, I think the disparity in payroll is more of an inequality then steroids which every team probably had an eually portionate amount doing.

Wow....

I do agree with your point about medical study being needed for educational purposes.

Bugg
12-25-07, 11:28 PM
I could care less about the Mitchell report. From the day it was announced I saw it for what it is...a way to deflect blame away from management and show congress and the nation that MLB is doing something about the problem. It became even more of a joke when a "principal" of the RS was put in charge of it.

If Bud and the boys really wanted to do something about the problem they would have spent the $$ on finding a way to test for HGH and pressuring the union to accept blood tests. But this will never happen since there is too much money being made by owners who see a direct correlation between the increase in the power game and fan interest.

It was a bullsh!t and biased report that shamefully singled out a very few of the total juicers out there to deflect blame away from MLB and the owners. And the fact they used a RS principal to head the report that ended up zinging the Yankees in the process made it that much sweeter for Bud.They could've easily and smartly said what's past is past, but from now on cheaters will be severaly punished. Instead they sought to release a salacious report based mostly on the word of 2 trainers(both affiliated with NY teams) and not much else to absolve the Commish and blame the union(how new and original!). If they spoke to 2 guys, both facing the threat of fedral jail, what took 18 months and millions of dollars? What did they really do-go out to dinner and travel a whole bunch? Seems like for substantive conversations they barely had to leave the MLB NYC office, and then could've went by subway when they did.

As to Congress, for them to waste taxpayer money on cleaning up baseball is like worrying about the curtains wehn your house is engulfed in flames. Yes, guys used PEDs. Does that necessiate more dog&pony shows? Have the solved all of our other problems?

Yes, this is all unfortunate. But really, so what? Is anyone remotely suprised?Spare me it's for the children. I'm raising my kids, not Roger Clemens or MLB. Better they spend this time and mney designing a better testing protocol and working with the players to do so.

One more thing-is Mike "Yankee Hater" Lupica going to take his cut from his 1998 McGwire/Sosa book and give it to charity? He turned a total blind eye to it then to make a quick buck with a happy horsespit book, and now this whole thing is the end of the world. Talk about selective outrage.

YanksFan1992
12-26-07, 03:10 PM
For non-Yankees I do care, but for former and current Yanks, I look at them sort of like a family member and will still cheer for them no matter what they do (aside from a heinous crime:o )